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Jimmy Wales commented once that editing should be based on honesty and facts. This is missing in the current article and - if not changed - will be the subject of open debate in various scholastic circles. Any scholar reading the current SGI page would realise the similarity of its contents with the style of cheap tabloid newspaper based on sensational nonsense, and the Intro is an example. The Intro should describe SGI based on FACTS not private POV of right-wing Japanese fanatics (fascist, militarist etc…). Jimmy would have agreed that Wikipedia should not favor Japanese tabloid writers. It is lack of scholastic honesty to delete FACTS of world-respected sources, engaged with SGI activities, such as Gandhi Smirti Institute, The United Nations Refugees Agency, SGI presidency of the U N Committee of Religious NGOs (2004 to 2007), Goethe Society, Simon Weisenthal Center…and many other SGI engagement, being FACTS of reality. Scholastic honesty requires that the article (and here: the Introduction) must impartially present SGI true engagements and what sort of activities.
Right wing tabloids POV (brainwashing cult fascist militarists…) should also be mentioned somewhere in the article, perhaps together with "Who opposes SGI". I am proposing a Section on “Opponents to SGI”, which will include factual information about the views of Japanese nationalists, WW II crimes deniers, opponents to humanism and global citizenship, Holocaust deniers, traditional priesthood, and so forth. SGI is best known by both: who gives support and who opposes. I think this is a valid and important Section which can also deal with the controversy surrounding SGI.
Dishonesty in presentation in the current article can be also found in giving a title to Noriega and SGI: this is a typical tabloid propaganda inflating a balloon with a title about a meeting with Noriega (which occurred before his conviction) and gets blind on meetings with other world leaders some Noble Prize winners. Why not Mandela and SGI ? Why not? Jimmy Wales would have agreed that it is dishonesty in presentation to deliberately avoid the truth of other similar meetings with world leaders in art, science, music, politics, environment and peace activists, many Noble Prize winners – and who have the priority to be mentioned. It is also important to present the truth on the reason why these meetings with world figures took place: simply to present Buddhist view on life.
There are many other issues in the article that violate Wikipedia policy and will be accordingly targeted and changed, whatever time it takes. I’ll return to view this Talk page whenever time allows among the heaps of work I have. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 04:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Godwin's law and WP:WIAPA-- Catflap08 ( talk) 04:11, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Shii, I beg your pardon … SGI is pristine, flawless beyond criticism, don't you feel your head splitting into seven pieces (that’s what can happen you know) -Irony out. If they now will try to portray themselves antifascist let them do it. Ample of material waiting to serve as reference (especially in Japanese) beginning with Makiguchi and his first publications. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 22:01, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
I could not care less to be honest what you think. If one looks back into the history of this article it was you who started a point to counter point discussion in the section on critical views on SGI. Afterwards other editors decided to start the article from scratch – that was your action not mine. It is not you who has to decide that references are POV's by journalist and as a last resort brand them as fascist. Please note that most critics of SGI are rather “left” or “liberal”. You however ARE an adherent of SGI so any edit of yours is not likely to be neutral. It just boils down to the fact that you can not stand anyone being critical of SGI. Fascist or not its a cult in my books. Fascism and cults work along the same lines anyway. Each and every edit of yours, each entry in the talk page actually underlines the fact why SGI is regarded with some amount of suspicion. So far you have a history of discrediting editors, to insult them and to discredit the integrity of authors of resources critical of SGI. Again you are the epitome of why SGI is being criticised and you are doing a service to those who do so. So to close this – I am glad for each and every comment of yours as it shows anyone with a right mind what this all about. Changing user ID's won't help much either as your use of language are quite unique – including IP-address. And please do not insist on honorary doctorates anyone in academia knows – they are being bought most of the times.These days they actually rather discredit the one who holds them. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:19, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm new here, so forgive my butting in. After reading this page, I looked at a number of other entries about various religions - including the Church of Scientology, the Catholic Church and others -- and in NONE of them is every positive statement - or even neutral statement - followed immediately by a qualifier of negative comment. Only the Soka Gakkai entry is like that. Even the sex scandals of the Catholics are consolidated into one small paragraph, and is written (it seems) from the POV if the Church. So why is the Soka Gakkai - certainly less influential than Catholicism and less controversial than Scientology - the only one treated this way? -- Daveler16 ( talk) 22:44, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
So. Evidently someone who wants to know about criticism of Catholicism has a place to go, and people who just want info on the Church, and what it teaches and stands for, don't have to be subjected to one negative comment after another. That seems to be true of other religious movements on Wikipedia - Sikhism, Lutheranism, Baptist, Nichiren Shoshu are all religions I've looked at. Why is Soka Gakkai being treated differently than other religious movements on Wikipedia?-- Daveler16 ( talk) 16:57, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
So... this little sect of Buddhism has had little scandals that "need to be preserved on the page", but these other religions' scandals do not??? The Catholic sex scandals, the accusations of kidnapping and violence against Scientology - none of those "need to be preserved" on their respective pages? But some safe that has nothing to do with the religion's teachings, that no one in the English speaking world cares about - this gets special treatment??? Look, I'm not yet suggesting any changes because before I jump into something ongoing I want to understand what's going on and the established protocals and all. But this is making absolutely no sense, and I'm trying to imagine why this religion is treated differently than other religions on Wilipedia.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 20:56, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Also the page Criticism of Soka Gakkai existed until 2007. It was then decided to merge it with the main article.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 05:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
What am I talking about? How long can this be? First paragraph: bald statement that SG theology breaks with Nichiren. Second paragraph: statement that SG is recognized for pacifism followed immediately by “been characterized as being "quasi-fascist", "fascist", "militant", "overzealous", "manipulationist" and "authoritarian". Third para: sentence or two about history followed immediately by characterization of “controversial and aggressive recruitment”. Fourth para: mention of world wide expansion followed immediately by “widely viewed with suspicion in Japan and grapples with a reputation of being a "brainwashing cult", as well as a cult of personality centered around Ikeda”. Shall I go on? Pick any place: the SG’s growth explained as the result of threats and violence; the inclusion of some silly incident in 1951, like it’s a cornerstone of SG philosophy; chanting can be used for harm; SG’s pacifism “has been questioned”; all doctrinal pronouncements put through the filter of another religion – one can read through the Scientology entry without encountering immediate arguments with everything good that is said. Re-read the article with an open mind and see if I’m exaggerating. It’s as if the last word is always given to someone who obsessively dislikes SG – which is not the case in the other religions’ entries. Imagine if some disgruntled Catholic theologian wrote the entry for Lutheranism. That’s kind of the impression one gets from the SG entry.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 01:11, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Well I do not think its a theological debate if at any rate its one on Buddhist studies which has to be substantiated by preferably non-primary sources. I do however think sources will mostly be in Japanese as this debate does take place – so one would have to activate Japanese speakers interested in Buddhist studies. Care should be taken that it does not yet again turn into a we said they said style of article – been there, done that, fed up with it. @ John I know you have been absent for a while. An editor a while ago basically started the article from scratch again. What bucks me a bit is also the fact that SG proclaims peace activism of all sorts but appears not to be very active on the matter apart form proclaiming such activities - not even in Asia. Same goes for human rights issues and protection of religious minorities or religious conflicts (China) – just my two cents. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 16:38, 22 May 2014 (UTC) @ John ... good to see you back and active again. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 16:45, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, I think it would be kind of strange to characterize as "unorthodox" what is by FAR the largest Nichiren sect. I'd also say that the degree of adherence to what was written in 13th C Japan is a matter of interpretation - otherwise there would be just one Nichiren sect, right? Of course SG members would say that Nichiren Shoshu and Nichiren Shu (for instance) were deviating from Nichiren's intent - but should they then go and plaster that all over those Wikipedia entries? I don't think so. I might check the Nichiren Shu entry to see what the sect teaches - not what someone else thinks is wrong with it. Also: two recent books about the SG, in English, that I am aware of (perhaps you are too): "Encountering the Dharma" by Richard Seager, which is largely positive about the sect; and "Waking the Buddha" by Clark Strand, which I haven't read yet. Strand is a pretty well known Americsan Buddhist scholar and editor of Tricycle, so I'm looking forward to seeing what he says.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 21:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
But the Catholic entry on Wik isn't so transparently edited by fundamentalist Christians - that's my point. Just looked at the "Beliefs" section of the Jehovah's Witness entry, since you mention it. There is nothing there that says "this is not what the Bible teaches" or "this contradicts the Bible" - it just (as the title suggests) states the JH beliefs. My problem is that I'm finding that to be the case for most entries for religions, but the SG is treated differently. BTW, I've tried to find other 3rd party writings that could be considered objective, but so far hacve only found articles by Christian an-- Daveler16 ( talk) 04:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)ti-cult writers, who consider all forms of Buddhism cultish and wrong. Have you seen the Seager book though? I hope to get the Strand book next week. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 04:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
I would agree with your last point. Except for publishing a translation of the Lotus Sutra, publishing Nichiren's lectures on the Lotus Sutra, featuring Mr Ikeda's lectures on the 2 key chapters of the Lotus Sutra in book form, and publishing, and the youth studying, a multi-volume dialogue on the Lotus Sutra, the SG barely has anything to do with the Lotus Sutra. I mean, come on - don't just be making stuff up.
Your point about it not being a sect is just silly, and I don't know what it has to do with anything. There are more SG members than there are members of Nichiren Shu, or Nichiren Shoshu, or any other Nichiren . . . group. That's a fact that cxan't be changed semantically.
Human revolution: obviously, the SG believes it's an important part of its practice, so who is anyone to say "it shouldn't be"? Is there a description in SG literature of what human revolution entails? If so, that's what should be included. If someone wants to say "other Nichiren sects don't teach this", then they should go to the entries for those sects and say so.
Not sure what the point is about religious tolerance. I'm aware of a number of interfaith activities the SG has engaged in in Chicago alone.
The SG entry DOES say that the SG has separated itself from Komeito, so I'm not sure what the point of constantly mentioning Komeito is. There is a Komeito entry so perhaps whatever has to be said about it could be said there?
I think the SG is a lay organization because there are no clerics leading it, guiding it, or interpreting doctrine for it. So I'm not sure what you mean about THAT, either.
More later. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 04:26, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Daveler16, you write: "I would agree with your last point. Except for publishing a translation of the Lotus Sutra, publishing Nichiren's lectures on the Lotus Sutra, featuring Mr Ikeda's lectures on the 2 key chapters of the Lotus Sutra in book form, and publishing, and the youth studying, a multi-volume dialogue on the Lotus Sutra, the SG barely has anything to do with the Lotus Sutra. I mean, come on - don't just be making stuff up."
Shan-wu-wei's commentaries on the Lotus Sutra number in the hundreds, if not thousands, of volumes. He too gave great weight to the Lotus Sutra but he was criticized harshly by Nichiren. Tientai, though a votary of the Lotus Sutra, was taught by Nichiren to be inferior to Saicho. His works on the Lotus Sutra too number in the thousands of volumes, yet his beliefs and practices were likened by Nichiren to be as useless as "last years calender". Nichiren writes:
"how great is the difference between the blessings received when a sage chants the daimoku and the blessings received when we chant it" to reply, one is in no way superior to the other. the gold that a fool possesses is no different from the gold that a wise man possesses; a fire made by a fool is the same as a fire made by a wise man. HOWEVER, there is a difference if one chants the daimoku while acting against the intent of this sutra". Mark Rogow 05/29/14 sect s
-- Daveler16 ( talk) 04:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)Mark Rogow: Catflap suggested the SG has been consistently de-emphasizing the Lotus Sutra. I listed those items to show that that statement is incorrect. Beyond that, your statements go a long way to clear up what is wrong here. Rather than being an entry for "Soka Gakkai", evidently some people want it to be the entry "What Other Nichiren Sects Think Is Wrong with The Soka Gakkai". I mean - how in the world does Nichiren's criticism of Shan wu wei have to do with the Soka Gakkai? Has the SG addressed this in any of it's literature? Is it a topic at their meetings? Who cares? Other than people who for some reason care about Shan wu wei - who cares? Is this a discussion esoteric differences between Buddhist sects, or an explanation of the Soka Gakkai?-- Daveler16 ( talk) 03:52, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
In terms of religious tolerance everyone knows were SG stands.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 12:56, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
"YUIGA YOGA: This means that the life of Nikko Shonin equals that of Nichiren Daishonin. A Gohonzon called the “Tobi” (Flying) Mandala” is enshrined at Butsugenji Temple in Sendai City in Northeast Japan. It was inscribed co-operatively by the Daishonin and His immediate successor Nikko Shonin. This fact evidences what yuiga yoga signifies.” –Josei Toda as quoted in: From “Lectures on the Sutra” Third Edition, 1968 Seikyo Press.
Please note that no where in the Lotus Sutra or the writings of Nichiren Daishonin, can we find the concepts or words, YUIGA YOGA but in the Shingon esotericism of Shan-wu-wei this is a core principle. Central to Lamanism, an offshoot of Shingon, are the Four Treasures and the most important Treasure is the Treasure of the Guru. The other Three Treasures are subsumed within the Treasure of the Guru. This is known as Guru Yoga. The same goes for the SGI, whether it is implicit or implied. Mark Rogow 05/30/2014
My point is that the SGI appropriates the Daimoku, the Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren because it can't stand on its own religious and philosophical underpinnings. Just as Shan-wu-wei appropriated Ichinen Sanzen to bolster Shingon, the SGI appropriates the Lotus Sutra to bolster Ikedaism. Mark Rogow 05/30/2014
Most notably and of seminal importance is what differentiates the Soka Gakkai from the Japanese speaking author Nichiren Daishonin. Comparing his writings with those of the Soka Gakkai, one can readily come to perceive the differences between SGI's principles and practices and Nichiren's. This is my contention. Of course, the opinions of other Japanese speaking scholars as to SGI's positions in relation to Nichiren's are interesting but not nearly as definitive as Nichiren as a primary source. Mark Rogow 05/31/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:CCD9:18B7:843D:80FE:BD26 ( talk) 16:15, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Sorry if I may have contributed to some internecine warfare here. Is this "Talk" area for discussing the relevant Wikipedia entry and any possible changes to it? Or is it where various sects can argue with each other about whose is better? Honest question. I don't want to be involved in the latter, but I would like some changes made to te entry.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 02:34, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, another question: Does the exact same etry appear in every language? I mean, if I could read the Japanese Wikipedia entry for the SG (or German, etc), would it be a close translation of the English one (or maybe: is the English a translation of the Japanese?)? -- Daveler16 ( talk) 02:40, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi Develer16. This is not an internicine conflict. SGI's religion and practice is so divergent from Nichiren's and ours that it should be characterized as a "red on blue" conflict [rather than a "blue on blue" or internicine conflict]. SGI's conflicts [schisms] with the Nichiren Shoshu, the Kenshokai, and with various factions within SGI [Singapore, Italy, Spain, Argentina?, Japan?] may be considered internicine conflicts. Mark Rogow 01/06/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:CCD9:7C8F:7C70:AE6E:9B0A ( talk) 12:52, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Mark Rorow: Perhaps you're not seeing it, but you are exactly illustrating the problem that brought me here in the first place. You belong to a religion that does not think the SG is teaching a correct teaching. Fine. But that could be said of any adherent of any religin about any other religion. So why isn't every entry about a religion peppered with negative comments after every positive comment? Why do people feel compelled to not allow a picture of what the SG teaches and believes, without trying to negate every such statement? Again, it does not appear that Catholics are parsing the entry for Lutheranism, or Scientologists editing the entry for Bahai, or anything llike that for any other religion. Why does the SG get this special treatment on Wikipedia?-- Daveler16 ( talk) 22:23, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry - didn't know that's what I was doing. I meant only to pose a rghetorical question to an editor who had challenged a previous statement. Just read the WP-TE instructions. Is it your idea, John Carter, that critical and negative statements about the SG be taken out of their current contexts, and all put into one section? I will be glad to begin editing, but would like it if there were an agreed-upon format for those things.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 22:07, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
As mentioned before a separate article "criticism of SGI" did exist until 2007. Can always be retrieved from the archives and worked on.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 22:47, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I believe a separate page, also linked from the SGI article would be best. The key issues are in my opinion the ones on proselytising, structure, finances, religious tolerance, intransparency, decission making process, involvement in politics and the absence of factual peace engagement. If the page is recreated I would suggest semi-protection right from the start. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 23:47, 3 June 2014 (UTC) This information is already well integrated into the article. Migrating it to a separate criticism page violates a Wikipedia guideline. Shii (tock) 03:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
In a way I must also admit that these critical views are will always be challenged by the groups adherents – may it be within this article or in a separate one. Some won't be able to stand the fact that not everybody shares their views. The benefit of the current situation is that the article is protected which eases things a bit in terms of what makes it into the article.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 20:15, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Mainstream Christian denominations, for the most part, are ecumenical and refrain from publically criticizing eachother. The SGI has no compunction in criticizing the Nichiren Shoshu, either in public or private, and I have no compunction in criticizing anything or anyone who fails to follow the teachings of Nichiren, least of all those who call themselves Nichiren Buddhists but act against the intent of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren. Were I to be silenced here or anywhere, it would be expected and it would hardly be the first time nor will it be the last. Mark Rogow 06/04/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:CCD9:A12F:9830:484A:1FF1 ( talk) 03:19, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Wow - go away for a day and there's a lot to digest. I looked at the archived "Criticism" page and think it's fine. It noted controversies and criticisms without being catty or snide (or dogmatic). Might I ask: why was it de-activated? I would have no objection to simply editing the SG page to remove the incessant negativity, activate the old page, and include a link to it on the SG page - as I think someone else has suggested. Also, in response to Catflap's "The key issues are in my opinion the ones on proselytising, structure, finances, religious tolerance, intransparency, decision making process, involvement in politics and the absence of factual peace engagement. " I don;t think the internal workings of the SG are an "issue". Some religins have popular elections, but many don't. including NIchiren Shoshu, whose leasder is chosen by his predecessor in a secret ceremony, or the Catholic Church. But big deal - that's their way, and I likewise don't see how the SGs methods are of some special significance. I also question your statement about "factual peace involvement". What d you mean? Thanks.--
Daveler16 (
talk) 04:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
The Nichiren Shoshu "leader picking process", as well as its internal structure, is not even mentioned in its Wikipedia entry, much less criticized by SG members. I would suggest that that is because, while the SG might think the process is messed up, it recognizes that it is Nichiren Shoshu's decision to do it that way, and that, and a self-governing organization, it is entitled to do it the way it chooses. At the very least, I would say an encyclopedia entry is no place for external groups to argue about how an organization runs itself. And that idea seems borne out by Wikipedia's entries for other religions which (again, sorry) do NOT argue with internal organizational decisions. I would say also that the Nichiren Shoshu entry is a model for what the SG entry should be like. There is no argument or criticism as it's doctrines, practice and history are explained; the closest thing to a criticism is the very last sentence, and even that is more of a statment of differences than an attack on what NS teaches. I think that's a good way to do it. Do you agree?-- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:01, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Not sure what the age of a religion has to do with making it's internal dynamic as a subject for debate. Besides, the SG, like Nichiren Shoshu, would argue (and document) that it is practicing correctly the Buddhist tradition as practiced by Shakyamuni as well as Nichiren. That may be beside the point though. My argument is that it's not up to outside groups to say what any orgainzation's internal processes should be (as long as they're not illegal) and the crticism of the SG's process has no place in its Wikipedia entry. Also: I have no idea what you mean by "There doesn't seem to be anything comparable to the historical circumstances of any article on other religions, but you haven't specified any". -- Daveler16 ( talk) 16:42, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm starting to do some editing - that is, composing offline. I'll share it here first when I have something competent. Ubikwit (is that right?) - yes, NS doctrine is different than SGI doctrine. NS doctrine is in the NS entry. SG doctrine should be in the SG entry. They should not be arguing on each others' entries - that's all I'm saying.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
I've added a new section about the"Criticism of SG" page. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:44, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Locked for editing? Could someone explain why? Did something happen?-- 70.181.118.149 ( talk) 01:54, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Never mind = figured out I had been signed off. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 14:14, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I think this page should be re-activated - either as a separate entry or as a section of the SG entry. Perhaps it could be renamed "Controversies", which is more in line with similar parts of the entries of other religions.
The SGI and Soka Gakkai have been a focus of criticism and controversy. Soka Gakkai, the Japanese organization, has a reputation for involvement in Japan's political arena. Though officially the two are separate, it is closely affiliated with the New Clean Government Party (also known as the New Komeito Party), a major political party in Japan. Accusations that Soka Gakkai in effect controls New Komeito persist;[2] Soka Gakkai and New Komeito both publicly deny any relationship, and declare that they are separate organizations[1].
Soka Gakkai and Soka Gakkai International are perceived by some critics to be a cult or a cult-like group. Their concerns are that, in the past, Soka Gakkai had placed an emphasis on recruitment, that it demonizes perceived opponents, and that it uses phobia indoctrination and peer pressure. French and Belgian anti-cult movements and parliamentary commissions have also accused SGI of engaging in cult-like practices, but there are groups critical of these governments citing they are religiously suppressive.[3 ] Another point of contention concerns SGI's application of the mentor–disciple concept. According to Soka Gakkai, the mentor-and-disciple relationship is a very important aspect of living a full life, for every human being; detractors see SGI’s version of the mentor–disciple relationship as a cult of personality for its intense focus on SGI President Ikeda. SGI defenders argue that in most cultures, and for most human beings, the idea of looking to those who have come before us, and finding a person who one can feel a kinship with, that one may look to as an example for how to live s life, for guidance, encouragement and support, is a common part of human development, and that their establishing a lasting relationship with such an individual is an important part of life. (no citation for either argument, but it seems okay to me) .
There is controversy about the degree of religious tolerance practiced by Soka Gakkai members. Official materials state all other religions, including other Buddhist denominations, are viewed as valuable in as much as they are able to support the happiness, empowerment, and development (needs citation) of all people. SGI claims that religious tolerance and a deep respect for culture are strongly emphasized in the organization.[4] However, there has been an acrimonious rift between SGI and Nichiren Shoshu. There are doctrinal differences between the Soka Gakkai and other Nichiren Sects – as might be expected between different religions. Other sects place great emphasis on the special efficacy of certain religious objects, while the Soka Gakkai teaches that lreligion should serve life (ref: Strand, Clark Waking the Buddha p. 61), and so is less doctrinaire in its application of Nichiren’s teachings.
As you will see if you compare to the original ( here)I removed a few paragraphs - I hope you will agree they are redundant and only re-state what has already been said. There wwere a couple of suggestion, concerning peace activities and theology, which I would have added, but I had asked for clarification on them, and got no reply, and don't want to try to expound on something I don't have a good grasp of. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:41, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
To the Administrators: As I stated in my first post, my niece is a Soka Gakkai member and I just happened to look it up on Wikipedia a few months ago. I was shocked by the extremely negative depiction in the entry. My niece has co-workers, neighbors, friends and other family members who know she is a Soka Gakkai member and I am concerned that if they look it up on Wikipedia, they will be alarmed and put off by what they read. It is not fair to any member of the Soka Gakkai to slant the entry to the extreme, i.e. fascist, militant, cult, etc. without an opposing view. It is what I believe to be an injustice that keeps me involved here. I am not sure, but it sounds like the administrators are willing to reach a common ground. I have been researching the activities of the Soka Gakkai and SGI on their web pages and am overwhelmed by their engagement in peace activities, nuclear disarmament, women, gay and human rights and educational exhibits and more. There are hundreds of examples of a respectable, concerned and energetic organization doing great things. I urge you review what I have seen at the following sites. http://www.sgi-sa.org/aboutsgi/about/docs/Activity_Report-2013.pdf http://www.sgi.org/news/all-news.html?start=0 WmSimpson ( talk) 19:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
John Carter: I would like those (I posted my email to your talk). Encyclopedias, I imagine, would be fairly obkective sources, wouldn't they? -- Daveler16 ( talk) 14:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
This is a great idea, thank you. I've created a new intro using other encyclopedias:
Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” It follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. The Soka Gakkai traces its start to 1930 in Japan, when its founder, Tsunesaburo Makiguchi (1871–1944), published his educational work “Value-Creating Pedagogical System.” By 1941 it grew to some 3,000 members but its refusal to support Shintoism during World War II resulted in its near destruction by governmental authorities; founder Makiguchi was imprisoned and died in custody during the war. [1].
The Soka Gakkai has grown rapidly since the 1950s under the leadership of its second and third presidents, Josei Toda and Daisaku Ikeda [added to the encyclopedia’s entry]. It is considered the most successful of the many religious movements that emerged in Japan after the war. [2] In 2003 its membership approximated 8,210,000 households in Japan and 1,500,000 individuals outside of Japan. [3]It shared an association with the Japanese Buddhist school Nichiren shō-shū but the two organizations separated in 1991. (Encyclopedia Britannica). Nichiren Shoshu preserves the tradition of Buddhist priests and temples whereas Soka Gakkai members are led by lay leaders and gather at numerous community centers throughout the world. Followers claim its well-organized, colorful, and well-organized structure is the future of Buddhism. [4].
The core of the Soka Gakkai’s religious practice emphasizes chanting the mantra Nam-myoho-renge-kyo(daimoku), propagation efforts through personal contacts(shakubuku), and study. Its main goal is “kosen rufu,” or the spreading of Buddhist ideals to promote peace and happiness in society. Members participate in neighborhood discussion meetings; the organization organizes cultural, educational, and humanitarian activities and is also an NGO (nongovernmental organization) affiliated with the United Nations. [5] (The Encyclopedia of Religion and Society).
The Soka Gakkai formed the Japanese Komeito political party in the 1950’s and it was criticized extensively by political rivals. The Soka Gakkai was also criticized for its aggressive proselytization in the 1950’s and 1960’s, the period of its explosive growth. [6] Starting in the 1970’s the Soka Gakkai began broadening its cooperative activities, expanded its outlook to an international scope, better adapting itself to pluralistic democracy. In the 1980’s Daisaku Ikeda began a series of dialogues with prominent leaders throughout the world and more organizations have constructed friendly relations with the Soka Gakkai. Members of the Soka Gakkai are encouraged to take personal initiative, to actively involve themselves in the community, and achieve personal happiness in their daily lives. [7] [User:Lionpride82|Lionpride82]] ( talk) 18:29, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
I think that's a really good intro, following up on someone else's idea of using encyclopedias as sources. I don't see what anyone could argue with. As far as it's foreshadowing the rest of the article - it does do that exactly, without getting into minutiae. I think it's fine. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Shii: what I mean is that the entry doesn't have to be a forum for argument. Currently it's "something nice/denial" and "positive statement/argument with positive statement". This new proposal eliminates that and, in my opinion, makes the intro (at least) more consistent with the tone of entries for other sects. I think also we have been discussing putting all the criticism in one place, either in its own section in this entry or in its own entry. In that case, it wouldn't have to be peppered throughout, and a reader could get an idea of the SG's actual beliefs and practices, before exploring what other people think is wrong with those beliefs and practices. This goes also to Ubikwit's latest comment: you seem to continue to want to describe SG as it compares to other schools; but I think those arguments would be more appropriate on the entries for those schools, since they are more about those schools. The new intro is, I believe, quite appropriate for this entry. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 23:27, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
It's very odd to have zero explication of such a text on a page of this sort.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 03:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)Ikeda, has produced certain writings which have acquired a canonical status within Sōka Gakkai, such as Ikeda's book "Human Revolution", which in some ways sets it apart from its former parent organization
I've tried a new intro, below in the next section. It uses a few encyclopedias as sources (Thank you, John Carter). -- Daveler16 ( talk) 15:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
History Makiguchi: 1930-1944 Tsunesaburō Makiguchi, First President of the Sōka Gakkai Foundation
The Soka Gakkai officially traces it foundation to November 1930, when educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and his colleague Jōsei Toda published the first volume of Makiguchi's magnum opus on educational reform, Sōka Kyōikugaku Taikei (創価教育学体系, The System of Value-Creating Pedagogy).[22][23]:49
The first general meeting of the organisation, then under the name Sōka Kyōiku Gakkai (創価教育学会, lit. "Value Creating Educational Society"), did not take place until 1937.[25] The group was a lay organization affiliated with the Nichiren Shoshu, by that time a small and obscure Nichiren Buddhist sect. Makiguchi, who had turned to religion in mid-life, found much in Nichiren's teachings that lent support to his educational theories, though it has been argued that the sect's doctrines and rituals went against the grain of Makiguchi's modernist spirit.[4]:21–32[13] From the very first meeting, however, the main activity of the group seems to have been missionary work for Nichiren Shōshū, rather than propagating educational reform.[13] The membership eventually came to change from teachers interested in educational reform to people from all walks of life, drawn by the religious elements of Makiguchi's beliefs in Nichiren Buddhism.[citation needed][26]:14
Excised:-- Daveler16 ( talk) 03:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC) "In a 1933 publication by this group, Makiguchi explained one of his educational principles: "We must make our children thoroughly understand that loyal service to their sovereign is synonymous with love of country."[24]" because it is completely irrelevant. The academic validity of the source (fn24, Victoria) has been called into question by at least 2 reviewers (Metraux, and Kirchner and Sato).
Excised: "hekkeko" don't neeed Japanese wordds in an English entyry when there are suffucuent English words -- 70.181.118.149 ( talk) 17:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
This
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This page is heavily biased in favor of criticisms that have been written about the Soka Gakkai from critics with often vested motives. This page could easily described as "Criticism of Soka Gakkai" rather than an objective description of Soka Gakkai. I do not ask for all criticisms to be deleted. Instead I ask that some balance be restored to the page. The comments from some reputed observers, such as say Mikhail Gorbachev or Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Center that used to exist on this page, but have since been deleted. I call for this page to be revamped, or at least put under articles that do not have a neutral pint of view. Thank you. 122.179.142.144 ( talk) 18:50, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Well the case is very simple as some editors have decided in the past to censor all criticism which was based on third party onions some SGI faithful find it hard to get third party opinions on how they would like to see the issue to be described except own descriptions. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I removed a rewrite that contained:
I don't think this worthy of discussion. Shii (tock) 03:55, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
The problem with this page is that the entire page sounds like a criticism of the Soka Gakkai. Every single action of the Soka Gakkai is viewed from a highly politicized and scandalous viewpoint as presented by sections of Japanese society (such as ultra-nationalists) and media (tabloids like the Shukan Shincho). No attention of any kind is paid to more objective books like "Encountering the Dharma" by Richard Seager from Hamilton College, USA, and "A Public Betrayed" by Adam Gamble and Takeshi Watanabe. Information included within these sources can serve as a means to make this article more readable. A lot of the information in this article are quite simply rumor mongering and gossip. Despite all the criticisms of other religious movements of comparable religious movements like Mormonism or the Baha'i Faith, no other religious grouping is presented in such a negative light. This amounts to tremendous bias and prejudice on the part of the authors of this article or those who refuse to even consider adding some information to this article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shatrunjaymall ( talk • contribs)
Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a Japanese lay Nichiren Buddhist movement affiliated with Soka Gakkai International (SGI) which has, by its own account, 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world. Like other Nichiren sects, the Soka Gakkai reveres the Lotus Sutra and considers repeatedly chanting its title, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo as the correct fundamental Buddhist practice. Unlike other Nichires sects, it has no priests or monks.
Soka Gakkai, and the SGI have been described as "the world's largest Buddhist lay group and America's most diverse".[1] While the organization has been crticized (link to new entry here), it has received recognition for its peace activism, as well as its adaptating of Buddhist principles to addressing real life issues in the 21st Century.(1)
The movement was founded by educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and Jōsei Toda in 1930 as a lay organization belonging to the Nichiren Shōshū Buddhist denomination.[12] After a temporary disbandment during World War II when much of the leadership was imprisoned on charges of lèse-majesté, the membership base was expanded to a claimed figure of 750,000 households by the time of Toda's death in 1958, compared to 3,000 before the end of the war.[9][13][14]
Further expansion of the movement was led by its third president Daisaku Ikeda, who began for the organization's international expansion in 1960. -- 70.181.118.149 ( talk) 17:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I think this suggested revision is more reasonable and current. 66.214.252.44 ( talk) 19:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Here is something incorporating the research of various encyclopedias:
Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. It is the largest Buddhist sect in Japan with 8 or more million members and an additional 4 million members in other countries. [8] “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” The organization follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. The Soka Gakkai traces its start to 1930 in Japan, when its founder, Tsunesaburo Makiguchi (1871– 1944), published his educational work “Value-Creating Pedagogical System.” By 1941 it grew to some 3,000 members but its refusal to support Shintoism during World War II resulted in its near destruction by governmental authorities; founder Makiguchi was imprisoned during the war on charges of lese majeste for refusing to cooperate with government policies promoting State Shinto.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 20:30, 10 July 2014 (UTC) He died .while in custody. [9] [10]
The Soka Gakkai has grown rapidly since the 1950s under the leadership of its second and third presidents, Josei Toda and Daisaku Ikeda. [11] It is considered the most successful of the many religious movements that emerged in Japan after the war. [12] In the early postwar years it was accused of overzealous propagation. [13] It shared an association with the Japanese Buddhist school Nichiren shō-shū but the two organizations separated in 1991 when Nikken, the 67th priest of Nichiren shō-shū, excommunicated the Soka Gakkai after unsuccessfully attempting to bring the Soka Gakkai under his direct control. [14] Nichiren Shoshu preserves the tradition of Buddhist priests and temples whereas Soka Gakkai members are led by lay leaders and gather at numerous community centers throughout the world. Followers claim its well-organized, colorful, and well-organized structure is the future of Buddhism. [15]. Some anticult authors have included the Soka Gakkai on their lists of cults. [16]
The core of the Soka Gakkai’s religious practice emphasizes chanting the mantra Nam-myoho-renge-kyo(daimoku), propagation efforts through personal contacts(shakubuku), and study. Its main goal is “human revolution,” a profound inner transformation within an individual [17] and “kosen rufu,” the spreading of Buddhist ideals to promote peace and happiness in society. Members participate in neighborhood discussion meetings; the organization organizes cultural, educational, and humanitarian activities including the founding of schools, universities, museums, and research facilities. It is also an NGO (nongovernmental organization) affiliated with the United Nations. [18] [19]
The Soka Gakkai formed the Japanese Komeito political party in the 1950’s which was criticized extensively by political rivals. The Soka Gakkai was also criticized for its aggressive proselytization in the 1950’s and 1960’s, the period of its explosive growth. [20] Starting in the 1970’s the Soka Gakkai began broadening its cooperative activities, expanded its outlook to an international scope, better adapting itself to pluralistic democracy. In the 1980’s Daisaku Ikeda began a series of dialogues with prominent leaders throughout the world and more organizations have constructed friendly relations with the Soka Gakkai. Members of the Soka Gakkai are encouraged to take personal initiative, to actively involve themselves in the community, and achieve personal happiness in their daily lives. [21]
-- Daveler16 ( talk) 15:54, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Looked at the guidelines, came up with this for the first paragraph:
Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. It is the largest Buddhist sect in Japan with 8 or more million members and an additional 4 million members in other countries. [8] “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” The organization follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. Since its founding in1930, The Soka Gakkai has been the object of a lot of criticism and even persecution. Unlike other Nichiren sects, Soka Gakkai does not have a class of priests, and its emphasis is on the practitioner rather than dogma. [22]----------------- -- Daveler16 ( talk) 21:51, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the intro directly above would be fine with several notable changes: 1). Soka Gakkai does have priests, for example in Singapore. 2). "and its emphasis is on the practioner" should be changed to "and its emphasis is on Daisaku Ikeda.". 3). "rather than dogma" should be changed to "rather than doctrine". Mark R. Rogow 20 July 2014
FetullahFan ( talk) 18:36, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
I must admit I'm mystified why it is so vitally important to some that the word "sect" not be used to describe the SG. I don't know how the SG describes itself - it seems to me I've seen "organization", "movement", and "sect". But I do know that the word "sect" is defined in more than one dictionary as an offshoot of a larger religious circle (and the SG is certainly that) and that the Wikipedia definition of "sect" has a link to "Buddhist", and the SG is listed there. Since the practice of the SG entails a religious ritual, it has to be characterized somehow as a "religion" don't you agree? And so, a "sect"? All that being said, I have no objection to the words "movement" or "organization". As I say, I'm still not clear on why it's so urgently vital. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 23:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Ubikwit. In Buddhism the term "sect" is more likely to be used to describe the various schools within Buddhism, hence traditional forms of Buddhism. Since SGI seems to be eager to underline the fact that it is so much different and "lay based" as in contrast to traditional forms of Buddhism why use a term that it does not even use to describe itself? In the end it is not a “Shū”.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 10:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
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I made the separation issue again a separate point in SGI’s history. Although some, even current SGI members, say quite bluntly it was a money and power issue the facts are quite simple. SGI was stripped of its status within Nichiren Shoshu same goes for its members later on – those are the simple facts. SGI was kicked out. Any views on how each side regarded the issue should and must be regarded as views as the facts speak for themselves there is NO beating around the bush on this one. I would however advise any editor to be careful to beat the anti-authoritarian drum when it comes to SGI’s current structure. Many editors spend much time here to make a bogeyman out of everyone who holds different or critical views on SGI rather to focus on defining SGI’s belief structure. Some may find the current version of the article overly critical of SGI but this is due to the article’s history as it once was entirely based on primary, hence SGI’s own, sources. I know it’s a bit difficult to find non-primary sources on SGI that describe what SGI’s religious practise is all about – but that has its reasons. SGI defines itself largely on conflict – them against us. Once an editor complained why this article can not be more descriptive like the one on Nichiren Shohsu and Nichiren Shu. The thing is – they have a doctrine that can be described and that does not change in every blue moon. Even their historic conduct and misconduct can be described in a larger historic context. Adherents of SGI however try to portray it with a halo that simply does not match reality. Hence secondary sources that would confirm such halo are hard to find.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 19:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
There has been a complaint at the Teahouse about the use of footnotes on this Talk page. I'd like to remind everyone that the Talk page of an article is for discussing the article, not for developing revision drafts (complete with footnotes). If we want to develop extensive revisions, then we should create a subpage under the Talk page and do it there. Or the editor proposing the revisions can create the new version as a subpage on his own User page, and invite other editors to comment on that. About creating subpages, see Wikipedia:Subpages. Thanks. -- Margin1522 ( talk) 16:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Jimmy Wales commented once that editing should be based on honesty and facts. This is missing in the current article and - if not changed - will be the subject of open debate in various scholastic circles. Any scholar reading the current SGI page would realise the similarity of its contents with the style of cheap tabloid newspaper based on sensational nonsense, and the Intro is an example. The Intro should describe SGI based on FACTS not private POV of right-wing Japanese fanatics (fascist, militarist etc…). Jimmy would have agreed that Wikipedia should not favor Japanese tabloid writers. It is lack of scholastic honesty to delete FACTS of world-respected sources, engaged with SGI activities, such as Gandhi Smirti Institute, The United Nations Refugees Agency, SGI presidency of the U N Committee of Religious NGOs (2004 to 2007), Goethe Society, Simon Weisenthal Center…and many other SGI engagement, being FACTS of reality. Scholastic honesty requires that the article (and here: the Introduction) must impartially present SGI true engagements and what sort of activities.
Right wing tabloids POV (brainwashing cult fascist militarists…) should also be mentioned somewhere in the article, perhaps together with "Who opposes SGI". I am proposing a Section on “Opponents to SGI”, which will include factual information about the views of Japanese nationalists, WW II crimes deniers, opponents to humanism and global citizenship, Holocaust deniers, traditional priesthood, and so forth. SGI is best known by both: who gives support and who opposes. I think this is a valid and important Section which can also deal with the controversy surrounding SGI.
Dishonesty in presentation in the current article can be also found in giving a title to Noriega and SGI: this is a typical tabloid propaganda inflating a balloon with a title about a meeting with Noriega (which occurred before his conviction) and gets blind on meetings with other world leaders some Noble Prize winners. Why not Mandela and SGI ? Why not? Jimmy Wales would have agreed that it is dishonesty in presentation to deliberately avoid the truth of other similar meetings with world leaders in art, science, music, politics, environment and peace activists, many Noble Prize winners – and who have the priority to be mentioned. It is also important to present the truth on the reason why these meetings with world figures took place: simply to present Buddhist view on life.
There are many other issues in the article that violate Wikipedia policy and will be accordingly targeted and changed, whatever time it takes. I’ll return to view this Talk page whenever time allows among the heaps of work I have. SafwanZabalawi ( talk) 04:56, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Godwin's law and WP:WIAPA-- Catflap08 ( talk) 04:11, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Shii, I beg your pardon … SGI is pristine, flawless beyond criticism, don't you feel your head splitting into seven pieces (that’s what can happen you know) -Irony out. If they now will try to portray themselves antifascist let them do it. Ample of material waiting to serve as reference (especially in Japanese) beginning with Makiguchi and his first publications. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 22:01, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
I could not care less to be honest what you think. If one looks back into the history of this article it was you who started a point to counter point discussion in the section on critical views on SGI. Afterwards other editors decided to start the article from scratch – that was your action not mine. It is not you who has to decide that references are POV's by journalist and as a last resort brand them as fascist. Please note that most critics of SGI are rather “left” or “liberal”. You however ARE an adherent of SGI so any edit of yours is not likely to be neutral. It just boils down to the fact that you can not stand anyone being critical of SGI. Fascist or not its a cult in my books. Fascism and cults work along the same lines anyway. Each and every edit of yours, each entry in the talk page actually underlines the fact why SGI is regarded with some amount of suspicion. So far you have a history of discrediting editors, to insult them and to discredit the integrity of authors of resources critical of SGI. Again you are the epitome of why SGI is being criticised and you are doing a service to those who do so. So to close this – I am glad for each and every comment of yours as it shows anyone with a right mind what this all about. Changing user ID's won't help much either as your use of language are quite unique – including IP-address. And please do not insist on honorary doctorates anyone in academia knows – they are being bought most of the times.These days they actually rather discredit the one who holds them. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:19, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm new here, so forgive my butting in. After reading this page, I looked at a number of other entries about various religions - including the Church of Scientology, the Catholic Church and others -- and in NONE of them is every positive statement - or even neutral statement - followed immediately by a qualifier of negative comment. Only the Soka Gakkai entry is like that. Even the sex scandals of the Catholics are consolidated into one small paragraph, and is written (it seems) from the POV if the Church. So why is the Soka Gakkai - certainly less influential than Catholicism and less controversial than Scientology - the only one treated this way? -- Daveler16 ( talk) 22:44, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
So. Evidently someone who wants to know about criticism of Catholicism has a place to go, and people who just want info on the Church, and what it teaches and stands for, don't have to be subjected to one negative comment after another. That seems to be true of other religious movements on Wikipedia - Sikhism, Lutheranism, Baptist, Nichiren Shoshu are all religions I've looked at. Why is Soka Gakkai being treated differently than other religious movements on Wikipedia?-- Daveler16 ( talk) 16:57, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
So... this little sect of Buddhism has had little scandals that "need to be preserved on the page", but these other religions' scandals do not??? The Catholic sex scandals, the accusations of kidnapping and violence against Scientology - none of those "need to be preserved" on their respective pages? But some safe that has nothing to do with the religion's teachings, that no one in the English speaking world cares about - this gets special treatment??? Look, I'm not yet suggesting any changes because before I jump into something ongoing I want to understand what's going on and the established protocals and all. But this is making absolutely no sense, and I'm trying to imagine why this religion is treated differently than other religions on Wilipedia.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 20:56, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Also the page Criticism of Soka Gakkai existed until 2007. It was then decided to merge it with the main article.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 05:02, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
What am I talking about? How long can this be? First paragraph: bald statement that SG theology breaks with Nichiren. Second paragraph: statement that SG is recognized for pacifism followed immediately by “been characterized as being "quasi-fascist", "fascist", "militant", "overzealous", "manipulationist" and "authoritarian". Third para: sentence or two about history followed immediately by characterization of “controversial and aggressive recruitment”. Fourth para: mention of world wide expansion followed immediately by “widely viewed with suspicion in Japan and grapples with a reputation of being a "brainwashing cult", as well as a cult of personality centered around Ikeda”. Shall I go on? Pick any place: the SG’s growth explained as the result of threats and violence; the inclusion of some silly incident in 1951, like it’s a cornerstone of SG philosophy; chanting can be used for harm; SG’s pacifism “has been questioned”; all doctrinal pronouncements put through the filter of another religion – one can read through the Scientology entry without encountering immediate arguments with everything good that is said. Re-read the article with an open mind and see if I’m exaggerating. It’s as if the last word is always given to someone who obsessively dislikes SG – which is not the case in the other religions’ entries. Imagine if some disgruntled Catholic theologian wrote the entry for Lutheranism. That’s kind of the impression one gets from the SG entry.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 01:11, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Well I do not think its a theological debate if at any rate its one on Buddhist studies which has to be substantiated by preferably non-primary sources. I do however think sources will mostly be in Japanese as this debate does take place – so one would have to activate Japanese speakers interested in Buddhist studies. Care should be taken that it does not yet again turn into a we said they said style of article – been there, done that, fed up with it. @ John I know you have been absent for a while. An editor a while ago basically started the article from scratch again. What bucks me a bit is also the fact that SG proclaims peace activism of all sorts but appears not to be very active on the matter apart form proclaiming such activities - not even in Asia. Same goes for human rights issues and protection of religious minorities or religious conflicts (China) – just my two cents. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 16:38, 22 May 2014 (UTC) @ John ... good to see you back and active again. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 16:45, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, I think it would be kind of strange to characterize as "unorthodox" what is by FAR the largest Nichiren sect. I'd also say that the degree of adherence to what was written in 13th C Japan is a matter of interpretation - otherwise there would be just one Nichiren sect, right? Of course SG members would say that Nichiren Shoshu and Nichiren Shu (for instance) were deviating from Nichiren's intent - but should they then go and plaster that all over those Wikipedia entries? I don't think so. I might check the Nichiren Shu entry to see what the sect teaches - not what someone else thinks is wrong with it. Also: two recent books about the SG, in English, that I am aware of (perhaps you are too): "Encountering the Dharma" by Richard Seager, which is largely positive about the sect; and "Waking the Buddha" by Clark Strand, which I haven't read yet. Strand is a pretty well known Americsan Buddhist scholar and editor of Tricycle, so I'm looking forward to seeing what he says.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 21:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
But the Catholic entry on Wik isn't so transparently edited by fundamentalist Christians - that's my point. Just looked at the "Beliefs" section of the Jehovah's Witness entry, since you mention it. There is nothing there that says "this is not what the Bible teaches" or "this contradicts the Bible" - it just (as the title suggests) states the JH beliefs. My problem is that I'm finding that to be the case for most entries for religions, but the SG is treated differently. BTW, I've tried to find other 3rd party writings that could be considered objective, but so far hacve only found articles by Christian an-- Daveler16 ( talk) 04:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)ti-cult writers, who consider all forms of Buddhism cultish and wrong. Have you seen the Seager book though? I hope to get the Strand book next week. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 04:08, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
I would agree with your last point. Except for publishing a translation of the Lotus Sutra, publishing Nichiren's lectures on the Lotus Sutra, featuring Mr Ikeda's lectures on the 2 key chapters of the Lotus Sutra in book form, and publishing, and the youth studying, a multi-volume dialogue on the Lotus Sutra, the SG barely has anything to do with the Lotus Sutra. I mean, come on - don't just be making stuff up.
Your point about it not being a sect is just silly, and I don't know what it has to do with anything. There are more SG members than there are members of Nichiren Shu, or Nichiren Shoshu, or any other Nichiren . . . group. That's a fact that cxan't be changed semantically.
Human revolution: obviously, the SG believes it's an important part of its practice, so who is anyone to say "it shouldn't be"? Is there a description in SG literature of what human revolution entails? If so, that's what should be included. If someone wants to say "other Nichiren sects don't teach this", then they should go to the entries for those sects and say so.
Not sure what the point is about religious tolerance. I'm aware of a number of interfaith activities the SG has engaged in in Chicago alone.
The SG entry DOES say that the SG has separated itself from Komeito, so I'm not sure what the point of constantly mentioning Komeito is. There is a Komeito entry so perhaps whatever has to be said about it could be said there?
I think the SG is a lay organization because there are no clerics leading it, guiding it, or interpreting doctrine for it. So I'm not sure what you mean about THAT, either.
More later. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 04:26, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Daveler16, you write: "I would agree with your last point. Except for publishing a translation of the Lotus Sutra, publishing Nichiren's lectures on the Lotus Sutra, featuring Mr Ikeda's lectures on the 2 key chapters of the Lotus Sutra in book form, and publishing, and the youth studying, a multi-volume dialogue on the Lotus Sutra, the SG barely has anything to do with the Lotus Sutra. I mean, come on - don't just be making stuff up."
Shan-wu-wei's commentaries on the Lotus Sutra number in the hundreds, if not thousands, of volumes. He too gave great weight to the Lotus Sutra but he was criticized harshly by Nichiren. Tientai, though a votary of the Lotus Sutra, was taught by Nichiren to be inferior to Saicho. His works on the Lotus Sutra too number in the thousands of volumes, yet his beliefs and practices were likened by Nichiren to be as useless as "last years calender". Nichiren writes:
"how great is the difference between the blessings received when a sage chants the daimoku and the blessings received when we chant it" to reply, one is in no way superior to the other. the gold that a fool possesses is no different from the gold that a wise man possesses; a fire made by a fool is the same as a fire made by a wise man. HOWEVER, there is a difference if one chants the daimoku while acting against the intent of this sutra". Mark Rogow 05/29/14 sect s
-- Daveler16 ( talk) 04:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)Mark Rogow: Catflap suggested the SG has been consistently de-emphasizing the Lotus Sutra. I listed those items to show that that statement is incorrect. Beyond that, your statements go a long way to clear up what is wrong here. Rather than being an entry for "Soka Gakkai", evidently some people want it to be the entry "What Other Nichiren Sects Think Is Wrong with The Soka Gakkai". I mean - how in the world does Nichiren's criticism of Shan wu wei have to do with the Soka Gakkai? Has the SG addressed this in any of it's literature? Is it a topic at their meetings? Who cares? Other than people who for some reason care about Shan wu wei - who cares? Is this a discussion esoteric differences between Buddhist sects, or an explanation of the Soka Gakkai?-- Daveler16 ( talk) 03:52, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
In terms of religious tolerance everyone knows were SG stands.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 12:56, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
"YUIGA YOGA: This means that the life of Nikko Shonin equals that of Nichiren Daishonin. A Gohonzon called the “Tobi” (Flying) Mandala” is enshrined at Butsugenji Temple in Sendai City in Northeast Japan. It was inscribed co-operatively by the Daishonin and His immediate successor Nikko Shonin. This fact evidences what yuiga yoga signifies.” –Josei Toda as quoted in: From “Lectures on the Sutra” Third Edition, 1968 Seikyo Press.
Please note that no where in the Lotus Sutra or the writings of Nichiren Daishonin, can we find the concepts or words, YUIGA YOGA but in the Shingon esotericism of Shan-wu-wei this is a core principle. Central to Lamanism, an offshoot of Shingon, are the Four Treasures and the most important Treasure is the Treasure of the Guru. The other Three Treasures are subsumed within the Treasure of the Guru. This is known as Guru Yoga. The same goes for the SGI, whether it is implicit or implied. Mark Rogow 05/30/2014
My point is that the SGI appropriates the Daimoku, the Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren because it can't stand on its own religious and philosophical underpinnings. Just as Shan-wu-wei appropriated Ichinen Sanzen to bolster Shingon, the SGI appropriates the Lotus Sutra to bolster Ikedaism. Mark Rogow 05/30/2014
Most notably and of seminal importance is what differentiates the Soka Gakkai from the Japanese speaking author Nichiren Daishonin. Comparing his writings with those of the Soka Gakkai, one can readily come to perceive the differences between SGI's principles and practices and Nichiren's. This is my contention. Of course, the opinions of other Japanese speaking scholars as to SGI's positions in relation to Nichiren's are interesting but not nearly as definitive as Nichiren as a primary source. Mark Rogow 05/31/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:CCD9:18B7:843D:80FE:BD26 ( talk) 16:15, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Sorry if I may have contributed to some internecine warfare here. Is this "Talk" area for discussing the relevant Wikipedia entry and any possible changes to it? Or is it where various sects can argue with each other about whose is better? Honest question. I don't want to be involved in the latter, but I would like some changes made to te entry.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 02:34, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, another question: Does the exact same etry appear in every language? I mean, if I could read the Japanese Wikipedia entry for the SG (or German, etc), would it be a close translation of the English one (or maybe: is the English a translation of the Japanese?)? -- Daveler16 ( talk) 02:40, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi Develer16. This is not an internicine conflict. SGI's religion and practice is so divergent from Nichiren's and ours that it should be characterized as a "red on blue" conflict [rather than a "blue on blue" or internicine conflict]. SGI's conflicts [schisms] with the Nichiren Shoshu, the Kenshokai, and with various factions within SGI [Singapore, Italy, Spain, Argentina?, Japan?] may be considered internicine conflicts. Mark Rogow 01/06/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:CCD9:7C8F:7C70:AE6E:9B0A ( talk) 12:52, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Mark Rorow: Perhaps you're not seeing it, but you are exactly illustrating the problem that brought me here in the first place. You belong to a religion that does not think the SG is teaching a correct teaching. Fine. But that could be said of any adherent of any religin about any other religion. So why isn't every entry about a religion peppered with negative comments after every positive comment? Why do people feel compelled to not allow a picture of what the SG teaches and believes, without trying to negate every such statement? Again, it does not appear that Catholics are parsing the entry for Lutheranism, or Scientologists editing the entry for Bahai, or anything llike that for any other religion. Why does the SG get this special treatment on Wikipedia?-- Daveler16 ( talk) 22:23, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry - didn't know that's what I was doing. I meant only to pose a rghetorical question to an editor who had challenged a previous statement. Just read the WP-TE instructions. Is it your idea, John Carter, that critical and negative statements about the SG be taken out of their current contexts, and all put into one section? I will be glad to begin editing, but would like it if there were an agreed-upon format for those things.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 22:07, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
As mentioned before a separate article "criticism of SGI" did exist until 2007. Can always be retrieved from the archives and worked on.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 22:47, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I believe a separate page, also linked from the SGI article would be best. The key issues are in my opinion the ones on proselytising, structure, finances, religious tolerance, intransparency, decission making process, involvement in politics and the absence of factual peace engagement. If the page is recreated I would suggest semi-protection right from the start. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 23:47, 3 June 2014 (UTC) This information is already well integrated into the article. Migrating it to a separate criticism page violates a Wikipedia guideline. Shii (tock) 03:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
In a way I must also admit that these critical views are will always be challenged by the groups adherents – may it be within this article or in a separate one. Some won't be able to stand the fact that not everybody shares their views. The benefit of the current situation is that the article is protected which eases things a bit in terms of what makes it into the article.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 20:15, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Mainstream Christian denominations, for the most part, are ecumenical and refrain from publically criticizing eachother. The SGI has no compunction in criticizing the Nichiren Shoshu, either in public or private, and I have no compunction in criticizing anything or anyone who fails to follow the teachings of Nichiren, least of all those who call themselves Nichiren Buddhists but act against the intent of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren. Were I to be silenced here or anywhere, it would be expected and it would hardly be the first time nor will it be the last. Mark Rogow 06/04/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC5C:CCD9:A12F:9830:484A:1FF1 ( talk) 03:19, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Wow - go away for a day and there's a lot to digest. I looked at the archived "Criticism" page and think it's fine. It noted controversies and criticisms without being catty or snide (or dogmatic). Might I ask: why was it de-activated? I would have no objection to simply editing the SG page to remove the incessant negativity, activate the old page, and include a link to it on the SG page - as I think someone else has suggested. Also, in response to Catflap's "The key issues are in my opinion the ones on proselytising, structure, finances, religious tolerance, intransparency, decision making process, involvement in politics and the absence of factual peace engagement. " I don;t think the internal workings of the SG are an "issue". Some religins have popular elections, but many don't. including NIchiren Shoshu, whose leasder is chosen by his predecessor in a secret ceremony, or the Catholic Church. But big deal - that's their way, and I likewise don't see how the SGs methods are of some special significance. I also question your statement about "factual peace involvement". What d you mean? Thanks.--
Daveler16 (
talk) 04:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
The Nichiren Shoshu "leader picking process", as well as its internal structure, is not even mentioned in its Wikipedia entry, much less criticized by SG members. I would suggest that that is because, while the SG might think the process is messed up, it recognizes that it is Nichiren Shoshu's decision to do it that way, and that, and a self-governing organization, it is entitled to do it the way it chooses. At the very least, I would say an encyclopedia entry is no place for external groups to argue about how an organization runs itself. And that idea seems borne out by Wikipedia's entries for other religions which (again, sorry) do NOT argue with internal organizational decisions. I would say also that the Nichiren Shoshu entry is a model for what the SG entry should be like. There is no argument or criticism as it's doctrines, practice and history are explained; the closest thing to a criticism is the very last sentence, and even that is more of a statment of differences than an attack on what NS teaches. I think that's a good way to do it. Do you agree?-- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:01, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Not sure what the age of a religion has to do with making it's internal dynamic as a subject for debate. Besides, the SG, like Nichiren Shoshu, would argue (and document) that it is practicing correctly the Buddhist tradition as practiced by Shakyamuni as well as Nichiren. That may be beside the point though. My argument is that it's not up to outside groups to say what any orgainzation's internal processes should be (as long as they're not illegal) and the crticism of the SG's process has no place in its Wikipedia entry. Also: I have no idea what you mean by "There doesn't seem to be anything comparable to the historical circumstances of any article on other religions, but you haven't specified any". -- Daveler16 ( talk) 16:42, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm starting to do some editing - that is, composing offline. I'll share it here first when I have something competent. Ubikwit (is that right?) - yes, NS doctrine is different than SGI doctrine. NS doctrine is in the NS entry. SG doctrine should be in the SG entry. They should not be arguing on each others' entries - that's all I'm saying.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
I've added a new section about the"Criticism of SG" page. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:44, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Locked for editing? Could someone explain why? Did something happen?-- 70.181.118.149 ( talk) 01:54, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Never mind = figured out I had been signed off. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 14:14, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I think this page should be re-activated - either as a separate entry or as a section of the SG entry. Perhaps it could be renamed "Controversies", which is more in line with similar parts of the entries of other religions.
The SGI and Soka Gakkai have been a focus of criticism and controversy. Soka Gakkai, the Japanese organization, has a reputation for involvement in Japan's political arena. Though officially the two are separate, it is closely affiliated with the New Clean Government Party (also known as the New Komeito Party), a major political party in Japan. Accusations that Soka Gakkai in effect controls New Komeito persist;[2] Soka Gakkai and New Komeito both publicly deny any relationship, and declare that they are separate organizations[1].
Soka Gakkai and Soka Gakkai International are perceived by some critics to be a cult or a cult-like group. Their concerns are that, in the past, Soka Gakkai had placed an emphasis on recruitment, that it demonizes perceived opponents, and that it uses phobia indoctrination and peer pressure. French and Belgian anti-cult movements and parliamentary commissions have also accused SGI of engaging in cult-like practices, but there are groups critical of these governments citing they are religiously suppressive.[3 ] Another point of contention concerns SGI's application of the mentor–disciple concept. According to Soka Gakkai, the mentor-and-disciple relationship is a very important aspect of living a full life, for every human being; detractors see SGI’s version of the mentor–disciple relationship as a cult of personality for its intense focus on SGI President Ikeda. SGI defenders argue that in most cultures, and for most human beings, the idea of looking to those who have come before us, and finding a person who one can feel a kinship with, that one may look to as an example for how to live s life, for guidance, encouragement and support, is a common part of human development, and that their establishing a lasting relationship with such an individual is an important part of life. (no citation for either argument, but it seems okay to me) .
There is controversy about the degree of religious tolerance practiced by Soka Gakkai members. Official materials state all other religions, including other Buddhist denominations, are viewed as valuable in as much as they are able to support the happiness, empowerment, and development (needs citation) of all people. SGI claims that religious tolerance and a deep respect for culture are strongly emphasized in the organization.[4] However, there has been an acrimonious rift between SGI and Nichiren Shoshu. There are doctrinal differences between the Soka Gakkai and other Nichiren Sects – as might be expected between different religions. Other sects place great emphasis on the special efficacy of certain religious objects, while the Soka Gakkai teaches that lreligion should serve life (ref: Strand, Clark Waking the Buddha p. 61), and so is less doctrinaire in its application of Nichiren’s teachings.
As you will see if you compare to the original ( here)I removed a few paragraphs - I hope you will agree they are redundant and only re-state what has already been said. There wwere a couple of suggestion, concerning peace activities and theology, which I would have added, but I had asked for clarification on them, and got no reply, and don't want to try to expound on something I don't have a good grasp of. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:41, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
To the Administrators: As I stated in my first post, my niece is a Soka Gakkai member and I just happened to look it up on Wikipedia a few months ago. I was shocked by the extremely negative depiction in the entry. My niece has co-workers, neighbors, friends and other family members who know she is a Soka Gakkai member and I am concerned that if they look it up on Wikipedia, they will be alarmed and put off by what they read. It is not fair to any member of the Soka Gakkai to slant the entry to the extreme, i.e. fascist, militant, cult, etc. without an opposing view. It is what I believe to be an injustice that keeps me involved here. I am not sure, but it sounds like the administrators are willing to reach a common ground. I have been researching the activities of the Soka Gakkai and SGI on their web pages and am overwhelmed by their engagement in peace activities, nuclear disarmament, women, gay and human rights and educational exhibits and more. There are hundreds of examples of a respectable, concerned and energetic organization doing great things. I urge you review what I have seen at the following sites. http://www.sgi-sa.org/aboutsgi/about/docs/Activity_Report-2013.pdf http://www.sgi.org/news/all-news.html?start=0 WmSimpson ( talk) 19:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
John Carter: I would like those (I posted my email to your talk). Encyclopedias, I imagine, would be fairly obkective sources, wouldn't they? -- Daveler16 ( talk) 14:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
This is a great idea, thank you. I've created a new intro using other encyclopedias:
Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” It follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. The Soka Gakkai traces its start to 1930 in Japan, when its founder, Tsunesaburo Makiguchi (1871–1944), published his educational work “Value-Creating Pedagogical System.” By 1941 it grew to some 3,000 members but its refusal to support Shintoism during World War II resulted in its near destruction by governmental authorities; founder Makiguchi was imprisoned and died in custody during the war. [1].
The Soka Gakkai has grown rapidly since the 1950s under the leadership of its second and third presidents, Josei Toda and Daisaku Ikeda [added to the encyclopedia’s entry]. It is considered the most successful of the many religious movements that emerged in Japan after the war. [2] In 2003 its membership approximated 8,210,000 households in Japan and 1,500,000 individuals outside of Japan. [3]It shared an association with the Japanese Buddhist school Nichiren shō-shū but the two organizations separated in 1991. (Encyclopedia Britannica). Nichiren Shoshu preserves the tradition of Buddhist priests and temples whereas Soka Gakkai members are led by lay leaders and gather at numerous community centers throughout the world. Followers claim its well-organized, colorful, and well-organized structure is the future of Buddhism. [4].
The core of the Soka Gakkai’s religious practice emphasizes chanting the mantra Nam-myoho-renge-kyo(daimoku), propagation efforts through personal contacts(shakubuku), and study. Its main goal is “kosen rufu,” or the spreading of Buddhist ideals to promote peace and happiness in society. Members participate in neighborhood discussion meetings; the organization organizes cultural, educational, and humanitarian activities and is also an NGO (nongovernmental organization) affiliated with the United Nations. [5] (The Encyclopedia of Religion and Society).
The Soka Gakkai formed the Japanese Komeito political party in the 1950’s and it was criticized extensively by political rivals. The Soka Gakkai was also criticized for its aggressive proselytization in the 1950’s and 1960’s, the period of its explosive growth. [6] Starting in the 1970’s the Soka Gakkai began broadening its cooperative activities, expanded its outlook to an international scope, better adapting itself to pluralistic democracy. In the 1980’s Daisaku Ikeda began a series of dialogues with prominent leaders throughout the world and more organizations have constructed friendly relations with the Soka Gakkai. Members of the Soka Gakkai are encouraged to take personal initiative, to actively involve themselves in the community, and achieve personal happiness in their daily lives. [7] [User:Lionpride82|Lionpride82]] ( talk) 18:29, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
I think that's a really good intro, following up on someone else's idea of using encyclopedias as sources. I don't see what anyone could argue with. As far as it's foreshadowing the rest of the article - it does do that exactly, without getting into minutiae. I think it's fine. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 19:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Shii: what I mean is that the entry doesn't have to be a forum for argument. Currently it's "something nice/denial" and "positive statement/argument with positive statement". This new proposal eliminates that and, in my opinion, makes the intro (at least) more consistent with the tone of entries for other sects. I think also we have been discussing putting all the criticism in one place, either in its own section in this entry or in its own entry. In that case, it wouldn't have to be peppered throughout, and a reader could get an idea of the SG's actual beliefs and practices, before exploring what other people think is wrong with those beliefs and practices. This goes also to Ubikwit's latest comment: you seem to continue to want to describe SG as it compares to other schools; but I think those arguments would be more appropriate on the entries for those schools, since they are more about those schools. The new intro is, I believe, quite appropriate for this entry. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 23:27, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
It's very odd to have zero explication of such a text on a page of this sort.-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 03:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)Ikeda, has produced certain writings which have acquired a canonical status within Sōka Gakkai, such as Ikeda's book "Human Revolution", which in some ways sets it apart from its former parent organization
I've tried a new intro, below in the next section. It uses a few encyclopedias as sources (Thank you, John Carter). -- Daveler16 ( talk) 15:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
History Makiguchi: 1930-1944 Tsunesaburō Makiguchi, First President of the Sōka Gakkai Foundation
The Soka Gakkai officially traces it foundation to November 1930, when educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and his colleague Jōsei Toda published the first volume of Makiguchi's magnum opus on educational reform, Sōka Kyōikugaku Taikei (創価教育学体系, The System of Value-Creating Pedagogy).[22][23]:49
The first general meeting of the organisation, then under the name Sōka Kyōiku Gakkai (創価教育学会, lit. "Value Creating Educational Society"), did not take place until 1937.[25] The group was a lay organization affiliated with the Nichiren Shoshu, by that time a small and obscure Nichiren Buddhist sect. Makiguchi, who had turned to religion in mid-life, found much in Nichiren's teachings that lent support to his educational theories, though it has been argued that the sect's doctrines and rituals went against the grain of Makiguchi's modernist spirit.[4]:21–32[13] From the very first meeting, however, the main activity of the group seems to have been missionary work for Nichiren Shōshū, rather than propagating educational reform.[13] The membership eventually came to change from teachers interested in educational reform to people from all walks of life, drawn by the religious elements of Makiguchi's beliefs in Nichiren Buddhism.[citation needed][26]:14
Excised:-- Daveler16 ( talk) 03:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC) "In a 1933 publication by this group, Makiguchi explained one of his educational principles: "We must make our children thoroughly understand that loyal service to their sovereign is synonymous with love of country."[24]" because it is completely irrelevant. The academic validity of the source (fn24, Victoria) has been called into question by at least 2 reviewers (Metraux, and Kirchner and Sato).
Excised: "hekkeko" don't neeed Japanese wordds in an English entyry when there are suffucuent English words -- 70.181.118.149 ( talk) 17:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Soka Gakkai has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This page is heavily biased in favor of criticisms that have been written about the Soka Gakkai from critics with often vested motives. This page could easily described as "Criticism of Soka Gakkai" rather than an objective description of Soka Gakkai. I do not ask for all criticisms to be deleted. Instead I ask that some balance be restored to the page. The comments from some reputed observers, such as say Mikhail Gorbachev or Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Center that used to exist on this page, but have since been deleted. I call for this page to be revamped, or at least put under articles that do not have a neutral pint of view. Thank you. 122.179.142.144 ( talk) 18:50, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Well the case is very simple as some editors have decided in the past to censor all criticism which was based on third party onions some SGI faithful find it hard to get third party opinions on how they would like to see the issue to be described except own descriptions. -- Catflap08 ( talk) 17:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I removed a rewrite that contained:
I don't think this worthy of discussion. Shii (tock) 03:55, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
The problem with this page is that the entire page sounds like a criticism of the Soka Gakkai. Every single action of the Soka Gakkai is viewed from a highly politicized and scandalous viewpoint as presented by sections of Japanese society (such as ultra-nationalists) and media (tabloids like the Shukan Shincho). No attention of any kind is paid to more objective books like "Encountering the Dharma" by Richard Seager from Hamilton College, USA, and "A Public Betrayed" by Adam Gamble and Takeshi Watanabe. Information included within these sources can serve as a means to make this article more readable. A lot of the information in this article are quite simply rumor mongering and gossip. Despite all the criticisms of other religious movements of comparable religious movements like Mormonism or the Baha'i Faith, no other religious grouping is presented in such a negative light. This amounts to tremendous bias and prejudice on the part of the authors of this article or those who refuse to even consider adding some information to this article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shatrunjaymall ( talk • contribs)
Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a Japanese lay Nichiren Buddhist movement affiliated with Soka Gakkai International (SGI) which has, by its own account, 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world. Like other Nichiren sects, the Soka Gakkai reveres the Lotus Sutra and considers repeatedly chanting its title, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo as the correct fundamental Buddhist practice. Unlike other Nichires sects, it has no priests or monks.
Soka Gakkai, and the SGI have been described as "the world's largest Buddhist lay group and America's most diverse".[1] While the organization has been crticized (link to new entry here), it has received recognition for its peace activism, as well as its adaptating of Buddhist principles to addressing real life issues in the 21st Century.(1)
The movement was founded by educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and Jōsei Toda in 1930 as a lay organization belonging to the Nichiren Shōshū Buddhist denomination.[12] After a temporary disbandment during World War II when much of the leadership was imprisoned on charges of lèse-majesté, the membership base was expanded to a claimed figure of 750,000 households by the time of Toda's death in 1958, compared to 3,000 before the end of the war.[9][13][14]
Further expansion of the movement was led by its third president Daisaku Ikeda, who began for the organization's international expansion in 1960. -- 70.181.118.149 ( talk) 17:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I think this suggested revision is more reasonable and current. 66.214.252.44 ( talk) 19:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Here is something incorporating the research of various encyclopedias:
Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. It is the largest Buddhist sect in Japan with 8 or more million members and an additional 4 million members in other countries. [8] “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” The organization follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. The Soka Gakkai traces its start to 1930 in Japan, when its founder, Tsunesaburo Makiguchi (1871– 1944), published his educational work “Value-Creating Pedagogical System.” By 1941 it grew to some 3,000 members but its refusal to support Shintoism during World War II resulted in its near destruction by governmental authorities; founder Makiguchi was imprisoned during the war on charges of lese majeste for refusing to cooperate with government policies promoting State Shinto.-- Daveler16 ( talk) 20:30, 10 July 2014 (UTC) He died .while in custody. [9] [10]
The Soka Gakkai has grown rapidly since the 1950s under the leadership of its second and third presidents, Josei Toda and Daisaku Ikeda. [11] It is considered the most successful of the many religious movements that emerged in Japan after the war. [12] In the early postwar years it was accused of overzealous propagation. [13] It shared an association with the Japanese Buddhist school Nichiren shō-shū but the two organizations separated in 1991 when Nikken, the 67th priest of Nichiren shō-shū, excommunicated the Soka Gakkai after unsuccessfully attempting to bring the Soka Gakkai under his direct control. [14] Nichiren Shoshu preserves the tradition of Buddhist priests and temples whereas Soka Gakkai members are led by lay leaders and gather at numerous community centers throughout the world. Followers claim its well-organized, colorful, and well-organized structure is the future of Buddhism. [15]. Some anticult authors have included the Soka Gakkai on their lists of cults. [16]
The core of the Soka Gakkai’s religious practice emphasizes chanting the mantra Nam-myoho-renge-kyo(daimoku), propagation efforts through personal contacts(shakubuku), and study. Its main goal is “human revolution,” a profound inner transformation within an individual [17] and “kosen rufu,” the spreading of Buddhist ideals to promote peace and happiness in society. Members participate in neighborhood discussion meetings; the organization organizes cultural, educational, and humanitarian activities including the founding of schools, universities, museums, and research facilities. It is also an NGO (nongovernmental organization) affiliated with the United Nations. [18] [19]
The Soka Gakkai formed the Japanese Komeito political party in the 1950’s which was criticized extensively by political rivals. The Soka Gakkai was also criticized for its aggressive proselytization in the 1950’s and 1960’s, the period of its explosive growth. [20] Starting in the 1970’s the Soka Gakkai began broadening its cooperative activities, expanded its outlook to an international scope, better adapting itself to pluralistic democracy. In the 1980’s Daisaku Ikeda began a series of dialogues with prominent leaders throughout the world and more organizations have constructed friendly relations with the Soka Gakkai. Members of the Soka Gakkai are encouraged to take personal initiative, to actively involve themselves in the community, and achieve personal happiness in their daily lives. [21]
-- Daveler16 ( talk) 15:54, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Looked at the guidelines, came up with this for the first paragraph:
Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. It is the largest Buddhist sect in Japan with 8 or more million members and an additional 4 million members in other countries. [8] “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” The organization follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. Since its founding in1930, The Soka Gakkai has been the object of a lot of criticism and even persecution. Unlike other Nichiren sects, Soka Gakkai does not have a class of priests, and its emphasis is on the practitioner rather than dogma. [22]----------------- -- Daveler16 ( talk) 21:51, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the intro directly above would be fine with several notable changes: 1). Soka Gakkai does have priests, for example in Singapore. 2). "and its emphasis is on the practioner" should be changed to "and its emphasis is on Daisaku Ikeda.". 3). "rather than dogma" should be changed to "rather than doctrine". Mark R. Rogow 20 July 2014
FetullahFan ( talk) 18:36, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
I must admit I'm mystified why it is so vitally important to some that the word "sect" not be used to describe the SG. I don't know how the SG describes itself - it seems to me I've seen "organization", "movement", and "sect". But I do know that the word "sect" is defined in more than one dictionary as an offshoot of a larger religious circle (and the SG is certainly that) and that the Wikipedia definition of "sect" has a link to "Buddhist", and the SG is listed there. Since the practice of the SG entails a religious ritual, it has to be characterized somehow as a "religion" don't you agree? And so, a "sect"? All that being said, I have no objection to the words "movement" or "organization". As I say, I'm still not clear on why it's so urgently vital. -- Daveler16 ( talk) 23:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Ubikwit. In Buddhism the term "sect" is more likely to be used to describe the various schools within Buddhism, hence traditional forms of Buddhism. Since SGI seems to be eager to underline the fact that it is so much different and "lay based" as in contrast to traditional forms of Buddhism why use a term that it does not even use to describe itself? In the end it is not a “Shū”.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 10:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
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I made the separation issue again a separate point in SGI’s history. Although some, even current SGI members, say quite bluntly it was a money and power issue the facts are quite simple. SGI was stripped of its status within Nichiren Shoshu same goes for its members later on – those are the simple facts. SGI was kicked out. Any views on how each side regarded the issue should and must be regarded as views as the facts speak for themselves there is NO beating around the bush on this one. I would however advise any editor to be careful to beat the anti-authoritarian drum when it comes to SGI’s current structure. Many editors spend much time here to make a bogeyman out of everyone who holds different or critical views on SGI rather to focus on defining SGI’s belief structure. Some may find the current version of the article overly critical of SGI but this is due to the article’s history as it once was entirely based on primary, hence SGI’s own, sources. I know it’s a bit difficult to find non-primary sources on SGI that describe what SGI’s religious practise is all about – but that has its reasons. SGI defines itself largely on conflict – them against us. Once an editor complained why this article can not be more descriptive like the one on Nichiren Shohsu and Nichiren Shu. The thing is – they have a doctrine that can be described and that does not change in every blue moon. Even their historic conduct and misconduct can be described in a larger historic context. Adherents of SGI however try to portray it with a halo that simply does not match reality. Hence secondary sources that would confirm such halo are hard to find.-- Catflap08 ( talk) 19:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
There has been a complaint at the Teahouse about the use of footnotes on this Talk page. I'd like to remind everyone that the Talk page of an article is for discussing the article, not for developing revision drafts (complete with footnotes). If we want to develop extensive revisions, then we should create a subpage under the Talk page and do it there. Or the editor proposing the revisions can create the new version as a subpage on his own User page, and invite other editors to comment on that. About creating subpages, see Wikipedia:Subpages. Thanks. -- Margin1522 ( talk) 16:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)