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I'm bothered that this article contains too much personal opinion, not supported by wp:rs. Wikipedia has rules, and we should follow them. I would invite people to add {{ Fact}} tags to statements of personal opinion that aren't supported by verifiable sources, and delete them in a week or so if their supporters can't come up with a good source. I don't care if the source is the Cato Institute or Physicians for a National Health Program, and I think we should have a balance of viewpoints. But we should not have unsourced opinions. Agreed? Nbauman ( talk) 07:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I concur example needing citations: They are almost the main points of it being good, and they use the word most giving no reason to believe that is true.
I find sources, but I'm not expert so thus unqualified to edit this page and can't state my sources validity, say the exact opposite of this statement. Name one then prove it's most. UoLMephesto ( talk) 05:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Is this serious? Changing employers definitely has health care consequences. Example one employer has the socialize medicine plan, another has a private plan that ad to the socialized plan, thus both use the socialized plan but one provides more, it's better. Some job are just more dangerous lets not forget that. Name one then prove it's most. UoLMephesto ( talk) 05:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
These four examples are of definite need of citations, two from the benefits and two from the criticisms I wanted to be fair...
The source quotes throughput as saving cost. Basically it says more people use it and it's cost is put through all the patients the cost per person is less, then cited the UK and USA as examples, however it ignores the comparison it uses. UK has less MRI machines so people have to go and look for them so of course more people use each unit, the USA made more and so each machine was used less because there was more of them. It almost implies that you should have less MRI machines instead of more. The explanation needs to be better. UoLMephesto ( talk) 05:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
See also http://www.gao.gov/cghome/hccrisis/img0.html and the slides therefrom. The comptroller general of the US reports that overall, investment in the US is not significantly different from that in other countries; that the presence of insurance blunts sensitivity to price (the centralized UK system by contrast looks very carefully at value for money when assessing whether drugs/procedures/technology are effective medically and also cost effective); and also reports that the practitioners in the US do more unnecessary procedures. -- Tom ( talk) 08:32, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Be aware also that things you read in certain elements of the press. They often do not tell the full story. Like this about the NHS in the UK If you end up with an exotic disease that requires a lot of care, you're screwed. For example, the waiting list for any kind of major surgery is long, and for things like knee replacements you can wait for three years. Alzheimer's drugs aren't available on the National Health Service because they're too expensive.http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56327 But it is complete nonsense. The NHS absolutely does not "screw you" if you need a lot of care due to an exotic disease. Why should it? The waiting lists are not long (see the referenes in this Wikipedia article) and certainly not 3 years for a knee replacement. And regards the Alzheimers drugs, the reason was the NHS tested them for five years (!!) and found them to be ineffective. In fact the only way one could tell which group was on the drug and which on the placebo was the drug group had side effects. The matter went to court and the court upheld the decision of the NHS not to waste money on these drugs. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1246900,00.html and http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/aug/10/health.medicineandhealth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hauskalainen ( talk • contribs) 08:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
FreedomWarrior added text that insists that the government compels private medical practices (to provide medical services in support of socialized health care) and cited the Massachussetts scheme as evidence. GregAlton has since reverted it because the scheme relates to insurers not providers.
However, even as far as insurance is concerned, I thought it worth checking out the extent of compulsion. As far as I can see the State has laid down minimum standards for health care plans which enable those plans to attract tax deductible status and to enable residents or employers who buy or hold such plans to avoid fines for non-purchase of adequate health care. Also, only qualifiying plans can get on the connector web site run by the state which hooks up buyers and sellers. In effect, its a system of sticks and carrots. And when the state buys health care for low income families, it ensures the same minimum standards applies. Insurance companies can still sell sub-standard insurance to residents and residents are still free to buy them, but there will be negative financial consequences as well as potential negative health consequences. Rather than this being Big Brother government telling people what to do, it is democratically elected government incentivizing people and companies to do the right things. -- Tom ( talk) 12:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
To begin with, the statements that "pre-existing conditions do not affect a person's access to medical services," "changing employer does not have health care consequences" or "the state assumes the major costs of medical treatment and medicines at the time of need." are all unsourced. I have not objected to their inclusion because they represent the claims made by the advocates of socialized medicine on behalf of that proposition. I, however, have objected to saying that all socialized systems provide those benefits in the absence of a source, because Wikipedia is not a place for conjectures and original research.
Given that there is no fixed definition of what constitutes socialized medicine, it would be ludicrous to say that "the state assumes the major costs of medical treatment and medicines at the time of need" in all countries with socialized medicine or that "pre-existing conditions do not affect a person's access to medical services" because we can't say with any exact level of precision what countries have socialized medicine. Some countries with socialized medicine will meet all of the conditions that Tom claims, however, some will not.
I don't disagree that most of the conditions are to some degree true for the countries in this article, but it doesn't follow that it's true in all countries with socialized medicine.
If you want to say that this is true of the countries listed in this article (which are only some of the countries with socialized medicine), I don't have an objection. You can either list the countries or retain the wording some. I will, however, continue to object to any categorical statements that lack proof (and cannot be made given the multiplicity of definitions of what constitutes socialized medicine).
Finally, I define socialized medicine differently from how you define it. For me to start listing what I believe to be the exceptions, will only draw us back to a pointless definitional argument, which I am unwilling to engage in. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 20:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I see that Kborer is trying to demote the history of the term below the history of socialized medicine per se. The article established early on that the term is used only in limited environs by a limited set of users. The article is pimarily about a perjorative term. Therefore the history and usage of that term is what is of prime importance, not the history od socialized medicine. -- Tom ( talk) 15:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
the pro/con sections should be written as paragraphs, not lists. Kborer ( talk) 17:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I thought the article could use an image so I made this from the image on socialism and the image in the medicine portal. What do you guys think? Kborer ( talk) 01:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Re Revision 00:10, 26 December 2007 By Fedomwarrior "You've not established a relationship between health and productivity...Additionally, there are people with a negative social value. Treating all people does not guarantee higher "
First, stop with the name calling. I am not insane. Second, you shouldn't be throwing stones, as the Nazis were some of the biggest supporters of "rational" guidelines aimed at ensuring that the population was at its "healthiest"
I have not made the claim that "only people capable of producing deserve to be treated if they are sick." I have nowhere linked treatment to a person's productivity, because unlike you, I have not taken such a dim view of human nature that I think that people need to be coerced into helping others in need. Similarly, I have not made the claim that all people deserve to be treated (i.e. that someone is obligated to provide other people with treatment). My real point is this: treating all people does not necessarily lead to greater productivity. In the abstract (because you can never seem to bring yourself to debate on the basis of real, concrete examples), there are people who could be treated without contributing to increased aggregate wealth (i.e. the invalid or the disabled). Accordingly, your claim that it tends to increase national productivity is nothing but the product of bunk, obscurantist logic. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It has been widely reported that one of the reasons why costs are so high in the USA is that there really is a disconnect. For example for-profit hospitals are shown to give poorer advice to heart patients leaving hospital than not-for-profit hospitals... the kind of advice that will help prevent re-admission. Hospitals are scared of doing too little and therefore tend to do too mcuh investigation. The issue of prostrate investigations in the USA is a case in point. There is more info about this in the archived discussions. Similarly, hosptials are not incentivised to do less if the insurance company pays, and if the insurance company does not pay then the patient will have to. And patients do not have the specialist knowledge to question the treatments or costs he or she is faced with having to pay for. In publicly funded and provided care, hospitals do not do excessive work as that costs money that is better spent elsewhere. And its no good saying that public hospitals can pass on extra costs at will to taxpayers because they cannot. They have to work within budgets like the rest of us and politicians would be thrown out of office if there were high taxes and visible public waste of money in hospitals. The evidence is quite clear that public medicine is cheaper than private medicine and controls on costs and public accountabilty probably has a lot to do with it. -- Tom ( talk) 22:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please take your changes a bit at a time and explain what you are doing. There is no hurry. And try not to bring back old texts that we have worked on before and rejected. The first one that struck me was that you started calling socialized medicine "a system" . It is not "a system". It is a political slogan for a range of different systems, but I'll settle for the more neutral "term". It certainly is not a system. It will save a lot of effort if pay heed tp the discussions in the archive before bringing back rejected texts such as this. Regulation was another one that took a lot of argument and I don't want us to be going round in circles over that old chestnut again.-- Tom ( talk) 02:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I could probably find a similar number of opposing references. But we have been here before and this is becoming very tedious. Those countries that have such a system do not describe it as such. In the UK and Canada and Finland and I am sure in many other countries it is called the public health care system to distinguish it from the private health care system. Just as we call use the word public to describe certain schools, roads and libraries etc,. and not socialized schools, socialized roads and socialized libraries. Even the VA system is not tagged with this epithet. The term socialized was added to give it a whiff of negativity to the concept of public health care in political debate. Therefore it is a politically charged term which is sometimes used in the US to describe a public health care system. As such it is a political charged term for something else. And I really don't care how many references you find which do not mention this. A fact is a fact. -- Tom ( talk) 17:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You are wasting your time trying to re-write the article back to an earlier state. I did ask that you take this slowly because I can see that I am not going to agree with the changes you are making. And you have again been messing with the defintion in a way which is clearly not acceptable to other editors here. I fear that I will be reverting the changes you have made. I wish you would please read the discussions that are in the archive. The changes you are making are putting the article back to an earlier state and I see that as regressive and not progressive. -- Tom ( talk) 17:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Kborer: You have again added "In either case, it (a system where the government sets rules for how private practices can provide treatment for reimbursement by the state) ..... is different than single payer health insurance, where the government finances health care but is uninvolved in delivery." How exactly? Cato, which you are fond of quoting, refers to Canada's medicare system as "socialized medicine" and that IS a single payer system. I really must insist that you tell us WHY you are making this claim over and over again in spite of other editors' objections.-- Tom ( talk) 17:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
OK you have not heeded the warning not to make too many changes too quicky and have completely ignored the objections to your changing the dual nature of the defintion in the header para and brought in inconsistency as I have described above. I feel that I have no choice but to revert the article back to the state of play we were in yesterday. You have made many objectionable changes that simply cannot be undone.-- Tom ( talk) 18:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You have done it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Socialized_medicine&diff=180688175&oldid=180687138 . You have no support for this big re-write. Hence of you make such big changes they will be reverted. This is a contraversial article and it is best that we try to keep it fair and balanced and referenced and changes made which result from discussions. I can see no logic in the changes you are making other than to begin loading with POV and bringing up the scale things you want to say and demoting or removing things you don't agree with. Please work co-operatively and use this page.-- Tom ( talk) 22:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
What an absurd accusation. I made small, incremental changes by request so that editors could contest individual ones. I did this, and now I request that my edits be contested individually, and not rejected indiscriminately with vague reasons. Kborer ( talk) 00:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
We have two: one saying "most" precisely, the other stating that using the term in the non-narrow sense is "ignorant." Is there any citation that could meet your requirement, save a meta-analysis of the linguistic choices of professonial sub-groups. This behaviour is essentially wikilawyering. I am happy to put in direct quotes, such as the "ignoramus" quote.-- Gregalton ( talk) 21:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
How about this? "In the opinion of two noted health policy experts, most health policy experts do not use the term." I mean, that's the type of wikilawyering you're implying one should resort to. Your approach is absurd.-- Gregalton ( talk) 21:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, do you think I'm stupid? I know that there's a significant difference between using "most" and "some." Words have meanings. (In light of your insistence on using "most" in lieu of "some," you certainly seem to recognize that, too).
You and your cohort are trying to give readers the impression that those who use the broader definition are a bunch of nutcases, because few supposed self-respecting academics would deign to use the term "socialized medicine." In so doing, you were stealthily inserting your point of view not this article. When I objected to your efforts, you turned to an article with the opinions of two "noted health policy experts" to make the claim that "most" professionals would not use the term. I again objected, because that simply doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that some professionals object to using the term. If you want to claim that "most" (a majority, as I understand it) health professionals are opposed to using the term, then find some evidence (statistics) that defends that claim. Otherwise, stop trying to make broad generalizations that are aimed at discrediting socialized medicine's opponents. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 23:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
When you are saying that the majority of health professionals object to using that term, you are making a very significant claim that can color how readers interpret the information on this page. Accordingly, I don't believe that it is entirely unreasonable on my part to ask you to back that claim with statistical evidence.
While the opinions of two "notable" policy experts could forward a policy discussion, you are using their opinions in an area that is outside of their field of expertise. That most of their friends in the field might be adverse to socialized medicine does not necessarily mean that most health care experts are adverse to using it. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 00:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom, of course you'd agree with Gregalton. The two of you are grasping at straws to come up with new ways of smearing the opponents of socialized medicine. Very simply, the opinions of your two so-called experts can only shed light on the opinions of a small cross-section of the health policy community, because we do not know the extent of their interactions with other colleagues or to what extent they are acquainted with the existing literature.
You can rely, foolishly, on arguments of authority if you wish. I will not. Find some real, substantive evidence which proves that the field is mostly opposed to using the term, or just drop this whole worthless line. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 16:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
FreedomWarrior. You removed this
with the edit summary "This is not your personal blog. That's nothing but your silly opinion. Take it elsewhere".
First of all it is not my opinion and I am not blogging. I've heard that opinion or opinions like it in the Sicko movie and in many places elsewhere. But as a piece of logical argument it seems faultless to me. It fundamentally describes the problem with the health care system in the US today as I hear it being expressed (which I suspect is why you want it deleted from the article). Insurance is all about pooling risk. As soon as someone's knowledge of a risk is changed there can begin a game of upmanship between insurer and insured with one party trying to gain at the expense of the other. Now I accept that this game works both ways, as insured can try to hoodwink and gain financial advantage over the insurer (by not declaring known facts) just as much as the insurer can play safe (by adding exclusions and loading premiums to maximise the chance of not making a loss). But the end result is as I expressed it.... the sick don't benefit from this game and the objective of pooling risk is defeated. But with a nation as the pool and compulsory insurance with a single fund there is no incentive to play this destructive game. Your labeling this as "nothing but your silly opinion" is nonsense. If a person moves from one state to another in the US he often has to change insurer, right? He carries with him/her his health history which could have become poor. He/she has to declare it and will surely be penalised under the new contract. His/her former risk pool status is changed. In national health systems, the insurer does not even have to worry about this, but a single private insurer worries about it very much. Your reasoning in more detail please for deleting the claim. Simply categorizing it as blogging is not good enough. -- Tom ( talk) 00:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Since you insist on turning this article into your personal blog, I am going to respond to your posts as I would on one. Here are a couple of points in response to your non-nonsensical claim:
1) Coverage exclusions keep costs low for those who are already in the risk pool. Therefore, it makes sense from the perspective of existing users. Potential users don't count, since the insurance company doesn't have any obligation towards them (it only has an obligation to its existing customers).
2) Insurance companies charge individuals on the basis of their impact on the risk premium. Those who are expected to use more of the monies in the pool are liable to get charged more. As such, the elderly are generally charged more because they, for obvious reasons, are liable to use more of the monies in the risk pool.
3) Coverage is given to all on the basis of what their sickness' priority in those "rational" guidelines that you so love. Accordingly, some are liable to get treatment more rapidly than others, and not on the same basis.
4) The young and the healthy are penalized under socialized systems. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 00:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I see you repeated the personal blog slur. I know why insurers do 1)-2) above and it was the statement you deleted... i.e. that it is logical for them to do so. But 2) means the sick pay more... but the issue in National Health systems is that you join the pool soon after conception and you stay in the pool until you die. So becoming sick per se NEVER changes cost contributions as it does woth private insurance if you change insurers for example. I don't think that is silly. Why do you? It is a clear benefit to the person who is insured. You have added another side swipe at me in point 3) but I'll ignore it. The point you make is wrong though ..these are the rules about priorities so "the same basis" is still correct. As to point 4) that is crazy. The whole point of insurance is that we pay to cover costs when we are healthy because sickness is something unpredicable and its costs are unpredictable. We pay our insurance and pray never to have claim on it (nobody wants to be sick). Thats the same under both kinds of systems (except insurance is paid from taxes). Getting old is more predictable but the key factor remains health. It seems to me odd that the old should be expected to pay more (as they would do in the US I presume if there were no medicare) at a time when they are probably no longer earning. We don't know if we will live a long life or a short life so planning for private insurance must have been a nightmare for the elderly in the US (and I guess to some extent it still is). In the UK the elderly do not have to pay for prescription drugs, let alone medical bills. The statement you deleted included "The sick and the elderly are not penalised financially for being sick and old". I think that is a fair comment and deserves to be in the article. It is not IMHO "silly opinion" which only belongs in a blog ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hauskalainen ( talk • contribs) 01:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Why are the sick and elderly being penalized financially? They obviously require more care and resources. Why shouldn't they pay their fair share like everyone else in the risk pool? Why shouldn't someone who's been in the workforce for forty and fifty years and presumably made investments and saved in preparation for their retirement be expected to have enough money to pay for their premiums? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:50, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom, you need to stop treating this page as if it were your personal blog. If you have a sourced, factual claim that you'd like to add, then do so. You are not entitled, however, to ram your opinion on here, especially without any sources. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 17:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
What in particluar are you referring to? Let's examine them one by one. I think you are POV pushing too. And when we have finished discussing your objections to my edits we can start discussing yours. -- Tom ( talk) 18:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I am POV pushing. I dont' mind admitting it, because you are too. The difference between us, however, is that I'm not arrogant enough to think myself an authority on health care policy. Usually, I cite my changes. You reversed my edits without even dealing with the requests that I made for additional sources. First, your contention that the term is "used principally in United States politics" is nothing but conjecture. An opinion piece from the left-leaning New York Times does not make it a factual statement. Find a real, academic source if you want to add it to the top of the page, or move it down to the criticism section (as an opinion). Secondly, you reversed an edit that eliminated your claim that "health professionals tend not to use the term at all," despite not having effectively dealt with my criticism of that claim on the talk page (my post is the last). Deal with the criticism on the talk page or just drop the issue. Furthermore, I didn't notice the claim about "The narrow definition permits a clear distinction from single payer health insurance systems where the government finances health care but is not involved in care delivery." I don't care about this. I'm fine with keeping it. I just prefer the wording on "It can describe a system where the government funds and manages health care by directly employing health care providers or, broadly, a government-regulated system for providing health care by all by means of subsidies and taxation." Finally, it's kind of rude to reverse an editors changes before going to the talk page. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Well at least you have admitted to POV pushing. Actually before I comment on the points you raise I want to say something at the outset. I see that you often highlight "trigger" words as interwiki links. What is a trigger word? A trigger word is one that is designed to trigger an emotion in the American public. Something which has been inculcated over many years. People in Europe for example do not share these emotions to anywhere near the same extent. The ones you choose to trigger are those which the US public have been trained to think as negative and bad like socialism, communism taxation government control regulation Soviet Union Cuba. I am surprised you haven't yet managed to add the word liberal to the text. And if someone adds a positive word (with or without a link) like democratic or elected then you do your utmost to delete it or demote it in the pecking order. The link to health care systems is a case in point because your alter ego has posted there a graphic which depicts heathcare systems along two axes designed to trigger along the same lines. Government finance (bad) versus private finance (good), and government control (bad) versus private control (good). And guess what, if you've been triggered in the way you have been trained to, you will come to the conclusion that free market health care must be very good... it has the best of both worlds! And socialized medicine must be very bad... it is bad in two ways!! Well, I think this kind of relatively subtle POV pushing is quite dangerous because it is mostly subliminal. When I have replaced that with a meaningful link with real information in it such as to publicly funded health care is gets deleted (well it did several times yesterday. And NOT ONCE did either you or your alter ego explain why you were making those changes. Not once. -- Tom ( talk) 18:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't care whether I have credibility in your eyes or not. I am quite tired of your puerile efforts to turn this article into a blog on behalf of socialized medicine. I am not going to allow you to flagrantly violate Wikipedia's rules regarding citations. I do not have to disprove anything to remove it from this encyclopedia. You are the one who has to prove a claim to add it on here. If you have no interest in searching for a source, then the claim shall be removed. If you insist on adding it without a source, I will remove it and complain to the proper authorities. Frankly, I don't know how my asking you to provide sources for claims that very clearly bias the article in favor of socialized medicine makes me "crazy" (I guess it's just the stalinesque name calling that you and your yolk engage in when you can't rationally argue something). Freedomwarrior ( talk) 20:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I had not finished. Re your final point "Is it rude to delete texts without discussing first"? Well yes it is, but its a bit rich because I am only following yours and Kborer's precedents. Your (you and Kborer's) return(s) from your WIKI editing vacation(s) began a sudden spate of editing aimed to put the article back to the way you had it previously (trigger word links and all,including pushing up the order of references that Cato article which did not support the defintion but did bring the Cato article up the pecking order of reference which is one of your POV tactics). Not a whiff of discussion about this before it was done. You just went ahead and did it. So I (and Gregalton too) had little choice but to revert as they were often very big changes designed to push POV.
As for providing references or sources for statements, that is an old tactic of yours and now I am afraid it won't wash. I'll give some eamples of the crazy demands you make.
Well I am not engaging any more in this. You have lost all credibility in my eyes. I am not going to provide sources for obvious claims. You can prove them wrong if you like, so its over to you.
As you specifically asked about point 2. above I will answer it this way. Firstly, the observation came initially not from me but some months back by User:Nbauman when discussing pejoratives I think. He said that medical journals do not allow the term to be used, and checking back on numerous articles where there are comparisons between the US and other countries, he is right. Nor is the term used by the WHO. The term is simply not used. Except I have seen it in some medical journal items but only in the context of US political debate. Is there really an editorial ban by such journals? I have no idea but I will ask User:Nbauman. Is it likely to be true? I suspect so because it is so politially charged. Am I going to dig any further to prove the point. No. Will that stop me from reinserting the claim without proof? No. If you can prove it otherwise, please go ahead and get the proof. Its so not in doubt (except in your mind perhaps)
I have no interest in this subject other than when I came across the article I recognized that it immediately was designed in part to paint an unflattering picture of health care in my home country. I have investigated some of the claims by Cato and the CPA which are lnked to in the article and they have (amazingly) so far, each been shown to my own satisfaction to be false. The stuff about waiting lists and MRI were just astoundingly wrong. So I have been slowly been adding factual information and I sense that you are frustrated that I have done this. Well, I am sorry about that. But it is not POV pushing. Its telling the truth. And the fact is, you (and Kborer) have been rumbled! Time to give up your hopeless quest. Your dedication to this task is so great though that I suspect you are being paid to do it. Nobody is THIS dedicated to pushing against a subject that they can have had very little direct experience of. I have lots of personal experience of two systems outside the US and both have worked fine for me and my family. I have one indirect experience of US health care. My cousin collapsed at the aiport on his arrival due to low blood sugar (he is diabetic). He was fine having sucked on some candy. But the airport insisted on him being transfered to the hospital. An ambulance was called and they checked him over, did some tests and released him later in the day with no medication administered. Fine. Except the hospital and ambulance bill came to over 15,000 dollars! UNBELIEVABLE!!! They hardly did a thing!
(Your tourism industry needs to know that many people from abroad cannot afford to take holidays in the US because the medical insurance component for a holiday is so expensive. A person over 65 years old in the UK going on holiday to continental Europe for 30 days pays £100. The same cover to the USA is £229 (over $500). http://www.thomson.co.uk/editorial/legal/insurance-gold.html#Summary_Benefits (see table at the end) Many people these days will actually go to Europe and not pay for travel insurance. They just get a free European Health Insurance Card because then they get the benefit of adopting temporarily the same rights to free or low cost access to health care as the locals have in that country and forget about the other risks. -- Tom ( talk) 20:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom, this article and the talk page is not your blog. The last post on the talk page is an example of what I mean. I could care less whether a person traveling in the US is insured or not. That's not something that keeps me up at night. If you find yourself in need of talking about the so-called injustices of free medicine, then go to a Marxist website where your rants will be appreciated. This is not the place to argue those issues. Moreover, this is not the place for you to try and push your opinion in an unsubstantiated way. If you want to add something on this article, then find a source and stop violating Wikipedia's rules regarding citations. Finally, I resent your accusation that I am somehow paid. This is simply an issue that I am interested in. My sole goal is to keep people like you (who rely on democratic arguments to strip people of their right to property) from distorting reality to gather enough support to ram a policy with which I vehemently disagree down my throat. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 21:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Freedomwarrior: As to blogging, the point I am making is that I have no direct interest in the US political debate. It makes no difference to me whether you keep the system you have or change it (though it might affect me as a tourist). In have no reason to push a POV. My changes to this article have all been aimed at removing bias and telling the truth about the subject. Your edits are, most of the time, subtle or not so subtle POV pushing. I reverted your last 3 blatant attempts for POV pushing. For all the reasons given above. You have admitted POV pushing. I suggest we go to one of the WP arbitration routes to resolve this impasse. If you want to report my behaviour elsewhere please go ahead and try. I don't think many will think that you are being reasonable. --
Tom (
talk)
22:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter whether I am POV pushing. I am doing it within the rules. I am using Wikipedia's rules to block you from turning this article into a blog on behalf of socialized medicine.
In one of your previous posts on this page, you complained about my supposedly purposefully highlighting certain "code words," yet you have had ample opportunity to highlight the words that you think somehow make your position more attractive. For instance, you object that I eliminated all references to the word "elected" (because you seem to think that vox populi, vox dei). If you remember, I objected to your making a nonsensical generalization which suggests that all countries with socialized medicine somehow have elected governments. I did not object to your including reference to some countries having elected governments. As usual, however, you did not narrow your statement into one that's actually true. It is not my fault that you are not sufficiently capable of making nuanced, but correct points.
You claim that " My changes to this article have all been aimed at removing bias and telling the truth about the subject," yet all that you are doing is adding unsourced information, which adds an implicit bias on behalf of socialized medicine. If you can find a source for your claims, in line with Wikipedia Rules (I invite you to read them) then feel free to add it. Otherwise, stop violating the rules. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 22:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I remind you that NPOV also affects the structure of articles and you blatantly change the structure to push POV. Also you have admitted to POV pushing which is a clear breach of WP policy. I make no such admission. So I invite you to follow the rules too. It is amazing that so many citations which are negative come from just 3 sources. CPA, Manhattan Institute and Cato, all of which have declared bias on the issue. As these institutions regularly put out falsehoods and misleading statements I do not think they really qualify as valid citations for factual information. I just deleted two such references at Publicly-funded health care. I look forward to examining the truth of statements made in those articles with other editors there. It has been most enlightening doing it here.-- Tom ( talk) 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
One would have to be blind to not realize that you and I are POV pushing. However, your claim that I am somehow purposefully changing the "structure of the article" to favor my POV is nothing but sheer and utter nonsense. We both have strong opinions on this matter. There is one difference between us: I do not come to this page and insist that my opinions be treated as a matter of fact. Most of my changes on this article have been aimed at ensuring that you do not transform this article into a blog, because I do not have the requisite time to research information to add on this page. If you look at the record, few of my changes have been additions.
With regards to CPA, Manhattan Institute and Cato, I could care less what you think. I would warn you, however, to be mindful of deleting sourced material from those sources, because your attempts to silence your opposition will only further demonstrate how weak and desperate your position happens to be. . Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Freedomwarrior. Your attempts to use internal wikilinks are blatant attempts subliminal POV pushing. Do you really think that people do not know what government and control means? What possible reason do you have for wikifying these words????-- Tom ( talk) 00:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Tom, you have to be kidding me. Your latest accusations are about as absurd as the ones that you made of me and Kborer being the same editor.
If I seriously wanted to engage in POV pushing, I would do what you do: make up stuff and try and force it into this article. As a general rule, I tend to add wikilinks whenever I edit something (you can look at some of the other articles I've edited, if you want confirmation). I wikified those words because I-- unlike you--believe in subtleties and recognize that those words have multiple meanings/usages. Take the term "government," for instance, which can mean "the ruling power in a political society" (i.e. the Brown government or the Blair government) or "the apparatus through which a governing body functions and exercises authority" (the state itself). Given the debates that we've had on the different forms of control and the different kinds of government out there, I don't think that there's a reason to exclude terms that can edify this article's readers. If you have a good reason for removing those terms, other than some paranoid, then let's hear it. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
We are a long way from April 1. And I was not born yesterday. And neither am I paranoid. If you persist I will just revert your isiosynchorisies (if that's how you prefer it,...tho' I still call it sublimiinal POV pushing) unless you can find substantial support for your actions from other regular editors here. If needs be I will take this to arbitration. -- Tom ( talk) 01:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You may not have been born yesterday, but you'd certainly fool me. Your contention that I have somehow been altering the article to include subliminal messages is laughable. Let me remind you once again that this is not a democracy. Vox populi is not vox dei on Wikiedpia, and your continued attempts to transform an intellectual discussion into a straw poll are contrary to its policies. (Moreover, they show how intellectually lacking your positions happen to be). If you want to take this to arbitration, then by all means. I'm sure that the arbitrators would enjoy a good laugh. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You have already admitted to POV pushing. That is unacceptable with or without references. The internal wiki links cannot be THAT important that you insist that they are left in... and in fact I still contend that this is subtle POV pushing (as is your moving the defintion link away from publicly-funded health care towards health care systems which has similar bias. I have called for 3rd party help to help resolve this current spate of fractious warring. I am content to wait and see what happens.-- Tom ( talk) 02:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Freedomwarrior: You seem insistent on your contention that the term is used neutrally to describe public medicine by medical professionals. It is impossible to prove non-use so therefore I an going to ask you to demonstrate common usage. Please therefore give an example of 3 articles from 3 different medical journals (not pamphlets or similar from biased sources) where public medicine is referred to as "socialized medicine" other than in the context of its use in political debate. If you do this I will seriously reconsider my position about the use of this term. Not before then. If you are right (that it is commonly used in a professional context to describe public medicine in a neutral manner) this should not be difficult for you.-- Tom ( talk) 01:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not going to engage in these puerile efforts, and I am tiring of having to spend the time that I've been spending on this article to stave off your silly edits. I am not your lapdog. I do not respond to your commands. I am not going to go looking for information in journals that suit your definition of what constitutes a valid source, because I am not the one who is trying to add any information on this article. If you want to add something on this encyclopedia, the burden of proof falls on you to prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. Quite simply, I do not have to convince you about the usage of the term and you do not have to convince me about its usage. You have to prove that it is used as you are claiming that it is used. Otherwise, it will be an unauthoritative he said, she said argument. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You have provided a single academic's opinion about his colleague's views. How does that constitute reasonable proof? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I realize this is a very contentious subject, but the back and forth edits aren't contributing anything to the quality of the article.
In the short term, I'll go through the article now and try to clean up the language and remove any obvious POV issues that exist. Considering how rapid the back and forth has been with the edits, I might suggest taking a day or two to before making further edits. Also, keep in mind the Three-revert rule WP:3RR, which states that the same editor can not make more than 3 whole or partial reverts on the same article within a 24 hour period.
The article is in need of significant cleanup. The length is simply too long for the subject. The sections on Criticism and Support are not appropriate for an encyclopedic article. For the most part, the content of those two sections can be eliminated without affecting the article quality, and important information from those sections can be incorporated into the rest of the text.
In the long term, the goal should be merger with Publicly-funded health care. Instead of working on small edits for this article, it would be best to incorporate its unique content in the Publicly-funded health care article. Most of the content doesn't need to be merged, and if there is any debate on whether or not a section of text has NPOV, it's probably best not to move it.
I hope this helps. In the mean time I'll go through the article now and remove any obviously POV problems, and perhaps most importantly, keep in mind the Three revert rule. Dgf32 ( talk) 01:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
A request on POV issues was noted on the Wikipedia:Third_opinion page. I'm reviewing the article and discussion page now and will post further comments shortly. Dgf32 ( talk) 02:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Tom, in one of your recent edits, you modified to introduction to link socialized medicine with publicly-funded health care because you claim that they are basically the same thing. Would it surprise you that I think otherwise? For those of us who subscribe to the broader definition of socializded medicine, it is more than publicly-funded health care. Therefore, I will be reversing that change, because there is no reason why your views on the matter should trump those of other editors. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
As for definitions I think we came close to a sensible defintition before Christmas, but then the edit warring began as two editors tried to change it all back. I suspect Freedomwarrior is now alluding to a claim he/she makes that regulation of privately funded medicine is also socialized, even though this is not a mainstream definition. This is not under the umbrella of "publicly funded health care". We also have the views of certain respected health profesionals and some dictionaries and editors here that the term does have a specific meaning, which is where the health care delivery system is publicly managed as in Britain, Spain or Finland. But usage by certain pressure groups (and the media therefrom) has extended the defintion way beyond that. As a result some even say that it is now so abused it has no meaning at all.
I have mostly confined my contribution here to extending the Wikipedia content about publicly managed health care delivery systems. In England we just call this Public Health Care if we are not talking specifically about the Britsh NHS. But I am told that Public Health Care can mean something different in the US. Therefore I have been adding this information to the socialized medicine article (even though the term socialized medicine sounds laughable to the British ear). If we can get a consensus from a wide range of editors where information about such systems should be collated I'd be happy to move it there. -- Tom ( talk) 04:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton, you may disagree that the origins of socialized medicine are in Bismarck's health care system, but that's what M. Gregg Bloche said in the New England Journal of Medicine article I cited, so it's not absurd. Nbauman ( talk) 02:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Freedomwarrior. Welcome back after your 2 week break. You deleted my statement that time taken to get a first appointment with a specialist and time for the specialist to make any diagnostic tests would not be regarded by most people as waiting time for treatment. Clearly the UK government now includes this time in the waiting time figure (which it was not before), but most people regard true "waiting time" as the "the time taken for my turn in the line" to come around, i.e. "dead time" because nothing is happening. Normal time to get a first appointment (say a week) and the time to do blood tests, or in hospital observations prior to making a diagnostic and treatment decision is not really "time waiting in line" and this is why I think it is reasonable to have this in the article, and why most people would not regard this as "waiting time". I do not think international comparisons on waiting times would include such time as "waiting" as they are all normal and neccessary activities.-- Tom ( talk) 08:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This page has been temporarily protected due to edit-warring. Please use this talkpage to discuss your dispute, and if that fails, use the Dispute Resolution system on Wikipedia.
Page protection is not an endorsement of the current version of this page. To unprotect, either wait the 24 hour period, or file a request at Requests for Page Protection. Please do not place requests for page protection on my talk page: Such requests will go unfulfilled. Thank you. ~Kylu ( u| t) 05:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
These programs are not really socialized medicine as the article discusses. Instead (unlike the veterans' health care), they are single-payer systems which utilize private doctors and hospitals with the government paying. This distinction should be made more clear. Papercrab ( talk) 19:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been troubled for some time that these two user accounts may be the same person or directed by the same person, even if from a different ISP address (which is very easy to do). My suspicions began many months ago when in a mild dispute with Kborer, FreedomWarrior took up the same argument but using much stronger and much more opinionated views. Since then Kborer has been reasoned but generally one directional whereas FreedomWarrior has been one directional but very unreasoned or to be generous, opinionated at one extreme. Then recently Kborer started supporting some of the (in my view extreme) opinions held by FreedomWarrior which, in my opinion has been out of character for Kborer. What's more, after a spate of edit warring FreedomWarrior said something to the effect that "we can go on arguing this using shell accounts"..... which raised my suspicions even further. I therefore undertook a review of the edit history of these users. One account is older and the other and most accounts make several edits on most days. But each editor has had least 4 significant periods when he/she has been away from editing for at least 5 days, but I noticed that 2 of these periods have been the same for both FreedomWarrior and Kborer. And the recent disappearance of Kborer and Freedom Warrior and their re-emergence from silence in the last day after another break from editing by both editors has , if anything, just strengthened this view. One of the accounts was created on 1 January which may be happenchance, but then maybe not.
I am not a statistician but as there are 365 different 5 day consecutive periods in any year I think that the chances of two editors choosing the same 5 day period to be absent on two separate occassions out of 4 each is quite small.
I am not inclined to raise an offical complaint and the evidence gathered above was done on the back of an envelope which has now been discarded and may even contain some minor inaccuracies. But it does make me think that I am less inclined to take seriously the edits made by these editors who mostly seem bent on giving the article content a negative gloss. I also suspect that we may see new editors emerging to take on the task of ensuring that the article keeps pushing negativity around the concept. Time will tell..
I mention these things for the benefit of other editors here. Yes I expect that Kbrorer and FreedomWarrior will express outrage at what I have suggested. But there you are. I am one for plain speaking and I have merely reported what I believe.-- Tom ( talk) 23:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not outraged, I'm just amused... Freedomwarrior ( talk) 23:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom and Gregalton, since both of you are so keen on insisting that an objective definitions for terms like "wealthy" and "industrialized" exist, perhaps you can provide them. At what point is a country objectively "wealthy"? Additionally, at what point is a country objectively "industrialized"? Finally, explain why some "industrialized" countries with significant GDPs that don't have universal health care, like China or India, shouldn't be counted alongside the US. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 05:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I won't live with a variation of that statement, because there's not a single reason to define wealth in such a way that you only mention the United States. By some definitions (i.e mine), China is a wealthy industrialized country (after all, it has one of the biggest GDPs in the world). Why are you glossing over the fact that China doesn't have universal health care? Is there a reason? Why should your opinion that the United States is the only country without universal health care get to trump mine, which is that there are countless other industrialized and affluent countries without universal health care? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 07:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Tom, stop trying to modify the terms of debate, I don't need to find a country that is "wealthier" than the United States since the blurb was discussing "wealthy" countries. I also don't see why I need to agree with your measuring a country's wealth based on their GDP per capita, mostly because I don't see why individual wealth would be a consideration in a system that is built upon wealth redistribution.
Gregalton, I have not disputed your claim that the United States is an industrialized and wealthy country. I have limited myself to disputing your claim that it is the only "wealthy" and "industrialized" country without some form of so-called universal health care. Why not China? You did not answer the question when I first posed it. You have simply gone on to make a rather hollow argument by authority as to why the United States is a wealthy country, etc. What is the cut off point? What is the GDP per capita or the aggregate GDP that lets one say that a country is wealthy? What is the approrpiation level of industrialization? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
You've got to be kidding me. There's no way that I can effectively "question the definition" put forth by any of your sources, because that's their opinion That would be asking me to go and convince Marx that capitalism's demise is not predestined. That's non-sense.
If there is such a "consistent understanding," then perhaps you could give me a figure that determines whether a country is "wealthy" and "industrialized" or not. Again, why is China, with one of the largest aggregate GDPs in the world, not a wealthy and industrialized country? What's the cut off point. Stop evading the question. Give me a number. Don't tell me that there's a consensus, because I don't see one. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 21:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
That doesn't tell me anything. Different sources use different figures. Again, why should China be excluded? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 21:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It would be better if Freedomwarrior takes this argument to Talk: Universal health care ... there are many more editors there and, who knows, maybe he will find someone there who can provide the references needed to support the assertion that the US is not dissimilar to China in industrialization and absolute wealth terms. The paragraph objected to in socialized medicine does seem to have been copied straighy from Universal health care and is on the topic of UHC rather than socialized medicine. If you do that I'll settle for whatever comes out of that. -- Tom ( talk) 22:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm starting to wonder if they teach common sense in schools anymore. You don't quite seem to realize that there is no scientific, objective way of ascertaining whether a country is "wealthy" and "industrialized" In other words, the questions that one would ask to determine whether a country is either of those two things is open to individual interpretation. For instance, you might say that measuring GDP per capita is a more effective approach to determine whether a country is wealthy, while I might argue that looking at the aggregate GDP is better. Who's right? Well, that's a question of opinion. Another example, what's the appropriate level of "industrialization" for a country to be considered "industrialized?" Indeed, what does it mean for a country to be "industrialized"? Is it possible for a country to be "un-industrialzied"? Again, those are all matters of opinion. Taking it to another page not going to solve the problem, it's just going to protract a rather pointless and mindless disagreement that is based on our unique opinions. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 20:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton , I do not need to go out and find a source, because I am not trying to insert my opinion on this page. If there's such a broad, factual consensus that doesn't hinge on someone's rather insignificant opinion, why don't you try to answer the questions that I've posed?
Earlier in this thread you conceded that you are simply trying to sneak an opinion on here when you said "Note this is not my opinion, but the opinion of two citations." Your narrow definition of what constitutes a "wealthy" and "industrialized" is a matter of opinion. It does not belong on this page. It is a violation of POV, simple. It is a normative claim, not a positive claim. Is the distinction not clear to you? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 23:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
If "any trivial attempt at research would provide lots of info" and you are as knowledgeable as you seem to believe, then answering the questions that I've posed shouldn't present a problem. Why not end the controversy and do so? I'll tell you why: you are not going to answer my questions, because doing so would undermine your preposterous and absurd claim that there exists an "objective" standard for determining whether a country happens to be "industrialized" and "wealthy."
In response to my objections, you have said that "Well, that's not the way it works." Perhaps you should read the rules, since your edits are a violation of WP:ASF
You can cite as many citations as you want, however, that does not give you the right to violate the rules and peddle your own particular views as fact. A socialist is not allowed to come on wikipedia and state, as a factual claim, that the proletariat revolution is inevitable. Even if he cites Marx and other writers who've held this belief, it is clear that his claim is nothing but an opinion, which must be treated as such. It is not an objective claim. Just like the claim that you've been trying to push on here.
I am going to suppress terms that "I don't like," because you don't have a right to impose your opinion on this page. I refuse to permit an obviously spiteful attacks upon the United States by people intent on pushing socialized medicine. There are many other wealthy countries that do not have socialized medicine, which you are giving a free pass to. Why? Why do you insist on attacking the United States and not those countries? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 05:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The statement itself is not spiteful, but the spirit that motivates it. It is another attempt to bash the United States, for what socialists perceive to be its faults (and I believe to be its virtues). Sadly, the United States has socialized medicine. It just does not have so-called universal health care.
I have no problem with stating that the United States does not have universal health care (the statement that I have been advocating reflects that--an objective truth). I object to passing off the claim that it is the only "wealthy" and "industrialized" country that does not have so-called universal health care as a matter of fact, because I don't know what those two terms mean. Again, how are you judging whether a country is wealthy or not? Are you doing it by per capita GDP or by aggregate GDP? What is the objective standard that you are using to determine whether a country is either of those two? You keep pointing to sources, but that doesn't solve the fundamental problem that your claim is an OPINION.
Your insistence on trying to push the claim that United States is the only wealthy country without so-called universal health care as a factual statement is nothing but blatant POV pushing. No source can turn an opinion into a fact. An opinion is an opinion is an opinion. Cite as many sources as you want, the revolution isn't coming...
If you want to include those statements as reference in the bottom, then feel free to. I don't object to letting readers see them and coming to conclusions. I just object to your efforts at foisting your opinion into this article.
How does your statement not violate WP:ASF rules? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freedomwarrior ( talk • contribs) 06:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton, why should GDP per capita be the measure of a country's wealth? Why is per capita wealth at all a consideration when discussing a socialist scheme for redistribution? At what level of GDP per capita?
"This definition is commonly used in combination to refer to OECD countries, although some might exclude a few OECD countries or include non-OECD countries for various reasons." On what basis are countries included or excluded? Is there an objective cut-off point? Or is is the arbitrary whims of some bureaucrats? Why is China not a developed country?
I am not vandalizing this article by asking that you provide an objective standard for a term. The same question was asked in the United States of the Democratic candidates running for president. They all gave three different answers. Your pretension at a consensus on this position is absurd. You are foisting a value judgment in this article. This is not a blog for you and your fellow socialists to attack the United States. Take your envy elsewhere. I am removing your obviously biased and subjective claim based on the rules of this encyclopedia. It does not constitute vandalism.
Finally, you say "You may think the US has socialized medicine and China to be wealthy, but these are according to your own definitions." Why does it matter that you go off and find your kindred spirit (also America haters, probably because of a nice degree of socialist xenophobia and envy) to defend what is an obviously arbitrary definition of wealth and industrialization.
If your so willing to compromise, then what's your idea? I am not going to let you ram your opinion point on here, simply because you have sources. It would be akin to the example of the Marxist citing Marx to defend his absurd position that I mentioned beforehand.
Tom, it doesn't matter that China is on the same level as the United States. The quote isn't that there aren't countries as "wealthy" or as "industrialized" as the United States without socialized medicine. Rather, the quote is that the United States is the only "wealthy" and "industrialized" country without socialized medicine. You have not established what a "wealthy" and "industrialized" country is. You say that "virtually all wealthy industrialized countries now have UHC." What are they? Who are they? How do you determine that?
Also Tom, that the claim is often made doesn't make it true. The Marxists have been proclaiming the proletariat Revolution for the past 160 years now, and yet that hasn't made it true. It is absurd to make an argument on the ground of tradition, which is what you are doing.
Finally, it doesn't matter that you think that "on balance" the comment should stay in the header. You have provided no valid argument for why it should stay. Tell me what criteria you are using to determine whether a country is wealthy and industrialized. Why does no one give me numbers? I don't care about little fluffy statements. I want cold hard numbers. The readers deserve to know what objective standard we are using to determine why China and a whole host of other countries with significant levels of aggregate wealth are given a free pass. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 16:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, anyone with a source can add anything on here (except me, of course, since Tom has repeatedly deleted cited statements that I've added on this page).
Nbauman, you should take a statistics course, because there is an objective means of ascertaining the income level at which heart disease cause more deaths than infectious disease. It's quite simple: you find out the number of deaths in each group, and then compare the numbers. While I don't know if the numbers to do that are available to perform such a comparison, I do know that there is an objective "scientific" method for dealing with the issue. There may be outliers as you've pointed out, but the number afforded through the statistical method is still a firm cut off point (and one supported by conventional social science techniques).
As you yourself have claimed, "there may be some agencies that have drawn dollar boundaries between industrial and developed countries, but I don't know if they make sense." They don't make sense because the cut off is arbitrary. What is "poverty?" What is "wealth?" These are all normative concepts with no rigid definitions. Using a malleable definition to harangue a definition is just crass beyond belief. Pick a number and defend it. Don't take me for a ride.
Escape Orbit, your suggestion gives me pause but it's acceptable, because I have no desire of going on and on with editors who are intent on foisting opinions on this article. It does have some issues, namely, the United States does have publicly-funded health care. It does not have so-called universal health care. If that's corrected though, I'll accept it. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton, the problem with the sources that you are using is that their determinations are based on political considerations and their own prejudices. As you yourself point out, "Israel being a bit of an outlier, nobody knows how to classify it, partly for political reasons" It is irresponsible to foist a statement on here on the basis of an incoherent standard which leads to "roughly the same 25-odd countries" being labeled as developed. There should be a consistent standard, which leads to the same 25-odd countries being labeled in the same vain. My preference would be that we drop all pretense of arbitrarily labeling countries on this page, rather than use the preferences of bureaucrats to make (un)authoritative claims about subjects. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Obviously, data needs to be collected by someone. I don't object to that. I just object to their spin on the data. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
You're right. They're used to guilt the "developed" countries into fleecing their citizens for those of "developing" countries. It's usage doesn't change the fact that it's based on arbitrary determinations. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 19:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Then why haven't you even attempted to list the criteria? What is the "objective" standard that you and the UN are using? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 20:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record, I would actually not bothered if that whole sentence was deleted but I suspect that others here would as a matter of principle.
As regards sources Freedomwarrior has said that I have repeatedly deleted cited statements that he has added on this page. If he added a citation from a source that is academic in nature (peer reviewed) I think I would be unlikely to delete it unless it actually did not actually support the statement in the article. From memory alone I would say that I usually delete material from you that is POV pushing. Unfortunately many citations that were in the article many months ago came from non-academic bodies that are blatently biased and demonstrably false. Personally I feel that citation sourced from Cato, The Center for Policy Analysis, The Manhattan Institute and other bodies do not fit well with WP policy on sources which says that "articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". I have been able to demonstrate over and over over again that the material these bodies put out are neither accurate or reliable. They consistently use data selectively (and often out of date), they treat exceptional news stories as the rule, and often misrepresent data in other ways. They even to lead the users of their sources to make their own false conclusions whilst being careful not to draw the conclusions themselves which is very clever but totally decitful. I know that Nbauman feels that these sources are widely quoted and therefore allowable in WP, so the only other alternative is to add other factual data up against it (which makes the article messy and difficult to read) or to remove the original claim and the source (because it is contentious and not demonstrably true).
Other non-cited edits you make that I delete are subtle POV pushing. WP policy states that it is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates. A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable. But on many many occassions you add words like "some people say" or "many would argue" to imply that a particlar statement has low or high support. I regard those additions as POV pushing and may delete them. As I have come to see how you work here and have grown weary of your POV pushing I may even have applied the same tactic myself against your own edits (but hopefully they are no longer in the article.
I am rather hurt by accusations that somehow I am anti-American and attacking America. I have great admiration for America in many many ways and most Americans I meet are very humane, loving and caring people with a great spirit of community. I do sense that Americans are distrustful of government but that I think has more to do with corruption in politics. The UK and Finland have low levels of political corruption (there are exceptions of course!) and people do trust their government on the whole. Americans admire self-sufficiency over dependency (which is not a bad thing at all) and that may be one reason why there is hostility to socialized medicine. But it has become so clear that the American health system is itself corrupt in many ways that people are now looking for radical solutions. I have no personal interest in the U.S. other than as an occassional visitor and I have no illusions that the U.S. political system will reform their health care along the lines adopted in Europe. I think politics itself would need to be cleaned up first and the profit motive taken out of health care. And there is no chance of that happening.
As for those sourced deletions you referred to, if there are any you'd like me to consider again, I'd be glad to do so.-- Tom ( talk) 22:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The issue of screening for certain conditions has been discussed in this article in the "Usage of Term" section discussing Rudy Giulliani. The issue of population screening in the UK has come to the fore since the prime minister is supporting a proposal for the NHS to offer free medical screening. For those interested, the pros and cons of screening in Britain were also discussed in a radio program which can be heard by following this link which will be available for the next 6 days (You should click the +15 minutes button to get to the right section of the program.) The program discusses the PSA test for prostate cancer, the differences between UK and the US on general philosophy on screening in general, as well as the views of experts in the studio and a vox pop from phone-in callers). If any WP editor thinks that the topic of screening should be added to the article, please feel free to do so.... (I may not have the time to do so). I have a feeling that I have read a claim somewhere that socialized systems do not screen. This is actually not true. In the UK, doctors are encouraged to screen certain types of patients for certain conditions but blanket screening programs are relatively few (Breast cancer and cervical cancer screening are the obvious ones that spring to mind that are done)- -- Tom ( talk) 06:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Although the use by Giuliani of the discredited Manhattan Institute data is a very good example of the mis-use of data by opponents of socialized medicine, it does seem to me that the section is now rather long. I see that Gratzer has defended his use of the data and has been allowed to use an official organ of the Manhattan Institute to do so. Would it not be better to summarise the dispute here and put the detail in the article about the institute or the author? I think that those articles are quite short, whereas the current article is already quite long.-- Tom ( talk) 07:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I presume this is something along the lines that people say to themselves "I can hang the consequences of overeating/smoking/drinking/having unsafe sex/driving without a seat belt/playing with firearms because if I get ill or injured the government will pay my health care bill". Is there any evidence for this? It seems to be an extraordinary claim to make.-- Tom ( talk) 21:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Hauskalainen might have violated 3RR in this article (Diffs [7], [8], [9], [10]). WP:3RR recommends a self-revert. -- Doopdoop ( talk) 23:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Guilty as charged! Yes, I was already aware. But the matter was settled before you started challenging it. I'll take my chances. I have no intention of reverting. We have been down this route before umpteen times before so the issue is already settled. See the archive. One cannot in logic prove a negative but one can call for proof positive in the other direction. See the section preceeding this one. So far nobody has attempted to give proof positive that it is used in other countries. Hence I'll not revert it. Indeed I'm sticking to my guns. If you can prove that the Brits, the Spanish, and the Finns for example refer to their systems as socialized medicine I'll quit editing here. I'm so confident that you cannot do so that I'll stick by that challenge.-- Tom ( talk) 23:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
And just so there is no doubt, I have also accused Doopdoop of being a sockpuppet of Freedomwarrior and have several months ago accused Freedomwarrior of being a sockpuppet of Kborer. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doopdoop#DoopDoop.2FFreedomwarrior.2FKborer and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Socialized_medicine#KBORER_.2FFREEDOMWARRIOR_- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hauskalainen ( talk • contribs) 00:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
In response to BigK HeX in the section above, this article is about "socialized medicine" as the users of term define it and make claims about it. The history of the term, the current day usage and the claims made about the topic are all examined here in some detail. That material should not be merged into publicly-funded health care. That suggestion has already been made and there was no consensus for it. If you read publicly-funded health care you will find it is already quite ocomprehensive. But if you think that there is useful material here that should be in that article, by all means COPY it there. Do not MOVE it there if its contextualized here to the claims made about socialized medicine. It is perfectly right and proper to report the claims made about socialized medicine in the current article and report the factual information that supports those claims (and of course any contra information that may refute them if that is the case).-- Tom ( talk) 16:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Filmaker Michael Moore, promoting Sicko says it should be re-labelled as "Christianized medicine" because it is what Jesus would do.[73]
Cynics have countered that if it was relabelled as such then the US could not introduce it because it would then violate the rule of separation between Church and State.
Socialized medicine is not the same as publicly funded health care. It is a type of publicly funded health care. This article is, and I use the term lightly, about socialized medicine including its history, current implementations, and other encyclopedic information.
Kborer (
talk)
00:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
If there are any objections, kindly log them at Talk:Publicly-funded_health_care#Merge_proposals. Thanks, all. BigK HeX ( talk) 16:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I've withdrawn my merger proposal based on Kborer's assertion that the terms "Socialized medicine" and "Publicly-funded health care" are not synonymous. Feel free to discuss it further though. I am only withdrawing my support for it, but it may still be a valid dispute that others want hashed out. BigK HeX ( talk) 01:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The strict definition was a quote, directly referencing an impeccable source - please use talk page before removing.-- Gregalton ( talk) 15:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
We can both find citations for any of our respective points of view, so let's not play this game. You added that quote in such a way as to bias the reader of this article into thinking that the "stricter" definition is the more correct definition to use, and that the other definition is of minor relevance. I'm not going to allow that. Accordingly, I've gone ahead and modified the quote so that neither definition is given precedence over the other. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 17:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
It is correct that single payer is not socialized medicine. Is is also correct that socialized medicine is single payer. Single payer simply means that there is one main source of financing. In socialized medicine there is one main source of financing. Single payer is not a health care system, it is a method of financing a health care system. Kborer ( talk) 20:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Kborer- What's the difference between "systems where the government sets rules for private practices to provide treatment for re-imbursement by the state" and "single payer"?-- Tom ( talk) 02:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are some examples of people talking about socialized medicine.
Kborer ( talk) 20:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are some more:
corrected it a few times. [And] I personally believe that we should have it." The Rank-and-file Leader By Sidney Morris Peck
insurance... socialized medicine has worked well in Great Britain." Socialism for Survival By Allan H. Keith
and change in custom so rapidly that measures objected to 10 years ago are now realities, so it will be with socialized medicine; and we may predict now its successful and general application in the very near future." Proceedings of the Conference on Social Insurance
Kborer ( talk) 15:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The strict / narrow discussion should appear in the usage section, not in the introduction.
Kborer (
talk)
15:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The strict / narrow discussion is important and should be in the usage section, but not in the introduction. The introduction should allow the reader to understand what socialized medicine is in a clear and succinct way -- and that is all. Discussing, in the introduction, how the term is misused or even misusing it ourselves is inefficient and confusing. Kborer ( talk) 01:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree wholeheartledly with Gregalton on this. It is fundamental to understanding the term and the dual nature has to be in the opening paragraphs and not in a later section. I think the argument that is being used by Kborer is wholly unfounded. The definition should indeed be clear and distinct in the header but as the article stands now it does not become clear until you read the later section on usage. The usage section is not a place for a definition (albeit an ambivalent one). The difference in the two defintions was quite concisely explained previously. There are many WP articles with much longer intros.
I too am annoyed that we have asked that this be discussed here and the reversion has been made 3 times with hardly a whiff of an attempt to achieve common ground or even an understanding of the motive for the change. I am going to ask Kborer to revert it back. If not, I will do it myself tomorrow.-- Tom ( talk) 01:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25521 http://www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_m_06zPzhtm Ezekiel J. Emanuel, Director of the Clinical Bioethics Department at NIH also notes "“ ‘socialized medicine’ is when the doctors are state employees; when the hospitals, drugstores, home health agencies and other facilities are owned and controlled by the government…” ( http://www.healthbeatblog.org/2007/10/the-real-danger.html) http://www.joepaduda.com/archives/001037.html Again, I don't mean to offend, but a 'popular' definition is not necessarily a correct one. This is the point we are trying to make, the popular definition is used intentionally used to obsfuscate the difference between socialized medicine and single payer. Especially by organizations like NCPA. Is socialized medicine single payer? yes. Is single payer socialized medicine? It doesn't have to be. JSteuernagle ( talk) 06:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the map from the article because it refers specifically to UHC countries, which s not the same thing. It would be nice to have a map of countries which have socialized medicine according to the two definitions bit it would have to colour the countries with different shades to show the degree to which the first or the second defintions apply. I doubt that anyone has researched this in enough depth for us to pblish such a map.-- Tom ( talk) 14:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This POV version is absurd. "Socialized medicine is any health care system that embodies the fundamental principle of socialism"? Puh-lease. This is tendentious nonsense and is not worth responding to.-- Gregalton ( talk) 17:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I really feel as though we must do something about the persistent POV pushing by editors such as Kborer, Freedomwarrior (if indeed they are two editors). They clearly have an agenda to use Wikipedia to present a one sided story and use it as a feed to deliver readers to certain brand of web sites that tell a one-sided story on this topic. I am not sure however what can be done to prevent their antics other than constant vigilance of the kind we have been engaging in.-- Tom ( talk) 19:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I think all the discussions on the concept of publicly-funded health care should go to the proper article. Socialized medicine should just be an article on linguistics, since that is just an expression to frame the debate on publicly-funded health care to a particular pov. -- SummerWithMorons ( talk) 14:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
If you proceed to remove more citations and sources (that you requested), I'll simply wait until you've finished your destructo-fest and revert the entire thing.-- Gregalton ( talk) 18:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry Gregalton, perhaps I missed something. What sources and citations am I removing? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
With single payer health insurance the government does not have the majority of control over delivery of health care, ergo it is not socialized medicine. Kborer ( talk) 19:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
But Canada's system is single payer and it IS labeled in the US by users of the broad definition as a socialized system. So your analysis is plain wrong. -- Tom ( talk) 20:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom:
National health insurance does not include heavy regulation of delivery by definition. Kborer ( talk) 22:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The issue is there are multiple definitions and some people will include Canada under this label and others do not. It is inconsistent to say that payment to private practices for agreed services is not single payer when it fits one of the definitions and is actually used by some people that way. That's why the article heading was right that it explained the relationship to Single payer that way.
Kborer said above "There is no contradiction in categorizing publicly financed and regulated private medical services as socialized medicine and not categorizing national health insurance as socialized medicine" and "National health insurance does not include heavy regulation of delivery by definition" But that's not the issue. We are talking about single payer. The issue was you have stated quite plainly that payment by the government to private health care providers is not the same as single payer. Clearly it is the same. Answer the point. I have raised it THREE TIMES now and you have failed to answer it. -- Tom ( talk) 22:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
There is only one correct definition of socialized medicine. Single payer health insurance is not included in that definition. Kborer ( talk) 00:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
FOUR TIMES now. How can all those 'respected' think tanks and policy institutes such as Cato, CPA and the Manhattan Institute say that Canada's single payer system is socialized medicine??? It may not agree with your definition or that of Gregalton or perhaps even mine but even The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal have talked about socialized medicine in the context of Canada's single payer system. Answer the question! They are just wrong and you are right??--[[-- Tom ( talk) 00:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)User:Hauskalainen|Tom]] ( talk) 00:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
KBORER: Why has Cato blabbing on about regulation in the Free Market got anything to do with Socialized medicine? I know it uses the term but it is just another use unrelated to the 2 main definitions. Why have you placed it at the top of the article? If it belongs anywhere (add I have doubts that it does) it would be in usage. DO YOU HAVE A CONNECTION WITH CATO BY ANY CHANCE? (OR the Center for Policy Analysis?) -- Tom ( talk) 02:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
It clarifies something important about the definition of socialized medicine: "How can America's health care system be socialized when we rely on the private sector more than any advanced nation? Because it doesn't matter whether the dollars and the hospitals are owned publicly or privately. What matters is who controls how they are used." Kborer ( talk) 05:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing nonsensical about it. The article says that if the government is deciding how public money is spent on an individual's health care, then that control constitutes socialized medicine. It is the same as saying that socialized medicine is when the government controls and finances health care. This view agrees with the majority of definitions that have been referenced. It does not mean that Canada necessarily has socialized medicine. Kborer ( talk) 16:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
You are avoiding the issue. Your claim was that payment by government for private delivery of care is NOT the same as single payer. It absolutely is the same. And there is no dividing line between the term socialized medicine and single payer if you read Cato, Gratzer, etc..-- Tom ( talk) 17:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to explain some of my recent edits. My main focus was to improve the presentation of the article, though some content needed to be removed as well, such as useless references, unsourced statements, and excessive discussion of certain topics. As I mentioned before, the introduction must be succinct. Quotes, detailed discussions of minor points, and secondary points of information that are not essential to the definition need to be moved out of the introduction and into separate sections. Sections need to contain the information surrounding one topic, not a dialog discussing the pros and cons of socialized medicine or other such nonsense. Also some urls were longer than the page width so they had to be encapsulated in cite web templates. Kborer ( talk) 14:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
One editor's clean up could mean wrecking another's edits. I want that we make only small changes to the article as and when necessary. If a re-write with a lot of changes are necessaey then then lets discuss them here first. It saves a lot of hassle. Clearly we have some strong headed editors here but it should be possible to find some consensus. If not them we may have to find ways of settling them by seeking the views of others.-- Tom ( talk) 16:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the clean-up banner. The article is very well referenced and as far as I can tell tries to tell as much as it possible to say about the subject representing both sides of the political argument (given that this is very much a political term, rather than a medical one). It conveys the political objections to socialized medicine and examines the claims using factual data. I am not sure what else can be done. Therefore I am inclined to remove the clean-up banner. It has stood in place for a month now and I have not seen much positive change in that time. It might have helped if the person that placed the banner had put an explanation note on the clean-up page request page at Wikipedia:Cleanup or on this talk page. -- Tom ( talk) 13:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Tom that Kborer, Freedomwarrior, and Doopdoop appear to be sockpuppets of each other. They all three have the same editing patterns and no respect for consensus. -- Historian 1000 ( talk) 07:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
What I don't understand is why legitimate editors even try to engage these disruptive editors/trolls/sock puppets in discussion. Doopdoop has been removing See also wikilinks I put up to the Kaiser Family Foundation. This is a nonprofit organization that is regularly cited by health care professionals, politicians, and the media. As a result of my reverting him (he engaged in counter reverts) he stalked me over to an article that I regularly edit, List of haunted locations (I study and write on folklore). Doopdoop's edits are often a nuisance and he obviously thrives on the attention he receives with his disruptive POV edits. I see no reason whatsoever to continue to engage this editor in discussion, other than to issue him warnings about his malcontent behavior so it is documented. -- Historian 1000 ( talk) 02:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Socialized medicine or state medicine is a term used primarily in the United States to describe various types of publicly funded health care systems.
has been replaced with
Socialized medicine or state medicine is a health care system that is controlled and financed by the government.
Lets take the 3 various elements in turn.
1. Is it the "proper" name for something or is it "a term for something else"?
It clearly is not the proper name because it tends to be used by one set of people (mostly those who try to swing opinion against the concept) and is studiously avoided by others (neutrally minded people and professionals, as witnessed that most medical journals reporting research do not use it). It is not just one person who avoids using it and not just me claiming it. Uwe Reinhardt says its a term to be avoided also, and if you go back and check the record of discussions here you will see Nbauman made the point about professional and scientific journals. Its mainly the nay-sayers and certain politicians that use the term.
Therefore it must have a proper name, and that name is either "publicly funded medicine" or just "public medicine". Therefore it is a term that is used to describe something else. Hauskalainen ( talk contribs) 21:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
2. Is a term used primarly in The United States or is it widely used in other countries?
I think this is not in dispute. I am sure you may find bloggers claiming to be in Australia or England but they are not valid sources. I am 52 years old and until recently I had never heard public medicine labeled this way, and if you read the archived talk page you will see many people from outside the US have been similarly surprised by it. Is it important to state this up front? I would argue yes because it is definitively so. It is not normal usage outside the US. Hauskalainen ( talk contribs) 21:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
3. Is
health care systems the best link to have in the first sentence or
publicly funded health care?
I think know why these two (?) editors are favouring the first rather than the second link. But I will let them say why for themselves before I give my opinion on that. To me, the latter is the more natural because both the narrow and the broad definitions are encompassed within it. -- Tom ( talk) 01:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC) .
The problem with your faulty line of argument is that there wouldn't be a claim regarding the usage of the term in other countries if the current statement on the term socialized medicine being used "particularly in the US" were deleted. That is, the article wouldn't be saying that "the Aztecs did NOT land a man on the moon in the 14th century with the aid of an alien culture," because it wouldn't contain a reference to that claim. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 07:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Tom, if the article is silent on an unsubstantiated claim, then nothing will be lost (because the claim shouldn't be there to begin with). I have not deleted the claim, and I won't as long as their is some substance to it (and there might be--I'm agnostic on the point). If you assert the claim as a fact, then you should be able to find a reputable article that substantiates that claim. Honestly, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to go to one of your socialist blogs and pull something from there. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 00:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to remind editors that is it not sufficient to simply have references for claims made in an article. The references must correspond to and support the claims that they are associated with. The reason that I point this out is that this article has been reverted several times to a version where claims are not only unsupported by sources, but references that had been used to support the opposing viewpoint in early versions were left in the text, giving the appearance that they supported the new claims. Obviously, such carelessness is completely unacceptable. Kborer ( talk) 23:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Socialized medicine is not a single implementation of a health care system. Any system that meets certain criteria is socialized medicine. So the idea that it describes different implementations is correct, because if various implementations all have centralized control, then they are all socialized medicine regardless of how that control is maintained. Kborer ( talk) 06:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I know ad hominem is easy, but it is not very productive. In any case, this is probably confusion between single payer and single payer health insurance. Single payer just means that funds are coming from one place, such as a government. Single payer health insurance is a national health insurance plan, such as those proposed by PNHP. Socialized medicine is not health insurance, but it is single payer. Kborer ( talk) 06:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
A question...now that Giuliani is out of the race, the lengthy section about his ill-advised remarks seems less notable and an example of recentism. I think the section can stand, but should be much shorter. No doubt the term may come up again in other campaign discourse. Any objection to some judicious pruning? -- -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 01:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2008/02.21/08-socialized.html
MaynardClark (
talk)
22:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)MaynardClark
FreedomWarrior: You have deleted this statement about socialized medicine.
Now I know that you will probably say Cuba is a dictorship and not a democracy, but the fact is that most of the nations that have socialized medicine are democracies and not dictatorships. So what is so objectionable about this statement? It sums up socialized medicine rather succinctly. -- Tom ( talk) 14:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I have removed it because it is another one of your gross generalizations. As you seem to recognize, not all countries with socialized medicine are democracies. Only "most of the nations that have socialized medicine are democracies and not dictatorships." As such, it is inappropriate to include the statement that the "population through its elected government..." because not all populations have chosen to "insure itself against the incursion of health care" through their government. That is why I have changed the text to: "the government sets the framework for determining how the health care system delivers treatments to patients." This is a more inclusive text which applies to both democracies and dictatorships with socialized medicine. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 16:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm.. Who's feeding the trolls now?-- Tom ( talk) 22:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I for once think Kborer may be on to something. He says "Socialized medicine is not insurance against unpredictable illness but rather a system of delivering most of a population's health care needs". I don't really find anything wrong with that, if you assume that insurance is something that begins after birth. Perhaps we can adopt is as definition :=) Insurance in the sense that Kborer uses it in health matters does not really meet what most people would think is a civilized response to person misfortune. If a person is born with sickle cell anemia his insurance is going to be sky high. But its not his or her fault that he has this disease, so why should his/her parents and ultimately he or she or pay for that? And as we discover more about the connection between genetics and disease susceptibility the insurance sector in those countries such as the US where health insurance is discriminatory, this issue will cover more and more people. Nobody in their right mind wants to be ill, and if we are, then we want to be cured or at least have our symptoms mitigated and if we cannot work because of that disease, then we should not be penalised for it. In a socialized system, society collectively ensures that this is the case. It IS a form of insurance if one can think that it is a conception to death matter with premiums based on wealth rather than health risk status. But I sense that some people here cannot think like that. It is something that normal commercial insurance cannot do. Maybe we should add this to the benefits section.... -- Tom ( talk) 23:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
If I can contend that the Aztecs landed on the moon before Neil Armstrong did, can you disprove that? Of course not! Its impossible to prove a negative. But you could challenge me to provide proof positive that they did. So neither is it possible to prove that the the term socialized medicine is NOT used outside the US. But you could prove the other editors here that we are wrong by demonstrating that official bodies (governments perhaps) or academics DO use the term in countries outside the US. Until you do I think it perfectly reasonable to suppose what I sense to be reality, i.e. that the term was invented in the U.S. and is not generly adopted outside the U.S.-- Tom ( talk) 23:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The point about "usage in the US" here seems valid. Even if the term is used in other countries, it does not carry the connotation that it does in the US. Also, it looks like the assertion is backed with citations, so the argument seems to be notable, and verifiable. In my opinion, ignoring the debate would seem to be the act that would violate NPOV. BigK HeX ( talk)
OK. Let's compare the reverts at
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Socialized_medicine&diff=191015977&oldid=191014712
According to WP policies the first sentence is a simple explanation of the article subject and the intital paragraphs are a heads up for what is to come later in the article. My version does that better than yours and does not attempt to mislead in the way your does.-- Tom ( talk) 00:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
An answer:
-- Doopdoop ( talk) 01:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Multiple sources with multiple definitions. They can't all be right. Marxist professors of literature and cuban immigrants are not the norm. Yes, a Labour govt did introduce it in the UK, but the conservative Churchill government that followed did not dismantle it. Nor Eden, Macmillan, Douglas-Home, Heath, Thatcher, or Major. But even so it still does not meet the standard definition of socialism. Finns do not regard their health care system as being socialism and neither do the Brits. Socialism has not always been a happy term in Spain either but the people of Spain have adopted such a system with great ease. And as for unsourced, I told you that the Guiliani usage during the election is a very recent example, tagging it socialist and not American. The references are further down.
I am now going to revert your change a second time today. You do not have consensus for this. If you revert it once more I will make a formal complaint.-- Tom ( talk) 01:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Doopdoop's version is better. One important reason is that the referenced definitions do not say that socialized medicine is just a 'term' or synonym for something. Rather, they say that it is a system. Kborer ( talk) 01:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
We don't have to provide a source to remove a normative claim (i.e. to keep this article silent on whether there is or isn't significant use of the term inside or outside the US), because that's now how the rules work. Notwithstanding, since you finally provided some sources which reflect that opinion, I have modified the text to reflect that it is an opinion shared by some editors. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
No, but its not unreasonable to ask you to disprove the point. That you have still refused to do so tells me that you are wrong in your implied position that this is a term used in the wider English speaking world. So irrespective of WP rules I will support the addition of a reference to this in the lead.-- Tom ( talk) 10:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Socialized medicine is a system of health care, not just a term that people apply to health care systems that they do not like. This is what the references supporting the opening sentence say. It makes no sense to use them to support the opposing viewpoint. Please do not remove the supported definition nor reinstate the claim that it is a term without major justification, including references. Kborer ( talk) 01:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I've protected the article due to edit warring from multiple editors. Please consider resolving your disputes here instead of engaging in edit wars. -- slakr\ talk / 00:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
BigK HeX wins. As far as the proposal to get rid of all the content in the article and replace it with a biased stub telling people not to use the dirty words 'socialized medicine', I dissent. Kborer ( talk) 15:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton, the sources in question reflect nothing more than the opinions of various individuals or groups. There are no objective (i.e. empirical) grounds for asserting that "the term is primarily used in the United States to refer to certain kinds of publicly-funded health care." Any such claim, in the absence of evidence, is idle conjecture on the part of those individuals and using them to make that claim in a matter of fact fashion is POV pushing. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 19:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
"Clearly" reliable on what basis? How is the bias attributed to them without substance? And why is it not idle conjecture? And what is a "neutral" approach? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 21:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The dark side of socialized medicine concerns the larger population pools of possible surveillance that affects ill and injured individuals -- possibly the same horde(s) or special interest groups, brandishing licences or college degrees, who caused the physical disorders. The question becomes less of 'insurance' as a way to continue time alloted for healing than what 'insulation' must be ramped up or increased under the watchful eyes of government, private/public health practitioners and all those program hangers-on hoping to write up a medical journal article or improve their own professional career standings. Especially counter-effective in terms of medical science or healing are those who are contacted by syndicate networks and agree to directly 'encounter' a 'patient' in various social settings, most commonly stores where friction is always a possibility anyway, and is an especial hazard under direct surveillance. Marcia L. Neil/beadtot 66.239.212.82 ( talk) 02:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Kborer ( talk) 19:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You also removed the more precise explanation of "is a term for a system.." to "..is a system". You also made sweeping changes that were not always explained. You made numerous inter-threaded changes that could not easily be undone, mixing controversial and less objectional changes. You made changes in spite of them having been objected to and reverted by Gregalton and myself. You added back "It can refer to any system of medical care that is largely both publicly financed and government administered or regulated" but we know that the VA system is not tagged in this way. You also introduced a Cato article which talked about control in the context of regulation. We had a long debate about this earlier. Control in the main definition refers either to management of the system or controls regarding rules for payment. I know Cato has used the epithet socialized in this context but I do not think use by one (polarized) user of the term enables us to stretch the definition of socialized medicine to cover general regulation of free market care which is not subsidized by the government. Though I suspect FreedomWarrior will say it does. You seem to be getting ever close to the view of this 'other' editor,
If you think the article header needs a major re-write please say so here and why. It will save a lot of time if we discuss changes here first-- Tom ( talk) 20:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC).-- Tom ( talk) 20:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom:
Please present the sources you mentioned above. In any case, the basic question here is: does the government need to directly employ health care workers and own health care facilities to constitute socialized medicine? From what I have seen, the answer is no. Socialism means centralized control, and there are other ways to centrally control the health care system besides owning facilities and employing workers. For example, the American Heritage dictionary says that regulating the industry is sufficient. This makes sense because if the government puts enough regulations on the industry, by telling doctors how to do their jobs and perhaps how much they are going to be paid, then they are effectively the employer. That's what Rockwell and the Columbia Encyclopedia are talking about. That's why Dorland's Medical Dictionary specifically says "controlled by the government". That's why some people look at a health care system that is nominally national health insurance and call it socialized medicine. If it is centrally controlled, it is a socialist system. Kborer ( talk) 04:51, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I'm bothered that this article contains too much personal opinion, not supported by wp:rs. Wikipedia has rules, and we should follow them. I would invite people to add {{ Fact}} tags to statements of personal opinion that aren't supported by verifiable sources, and delete them in a week or so if their supporters can't come up with a good source. I don't care if the source is the Cato Institute or Physicians for a National Health Program, and I think we should have a balance of viewpoints. But we should not have unsourced opinions. Agreed? Nbauman ( talk) 07:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I concur example needing citations: They are almost the main points of it being good, and they use the word most giving no reason to believe that is true.
I find sources, but I'm not expert so thus unqualified to edit this page and can't state my sources validity, say the exact opposite of this statement. Name one then prove it's most. UoLMephesto ( talk) 05:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Is this serious? Changing employers definitely has health care consequences. Example one employer has the socialize medicine plan, another has a private plan that ad to the socialized plan, thus both use the socialized plan but one provides more, it's better. Some job are just more dangerous lets not forget that. Name one then prove it's most. UoLMephesto ( talk) 05:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
These four examples are of definite need of citations, two from the benefits and two from the criticisms I wanted to be fair...
The source quotes throughput as saving cost. Basically it says more people use it and it's cost is put through all the patients the cost per person is less, then cited the UK and USA as examples, however it ignores the comparison it uses. UK has less MRI machines so people have to go and look for them so of course more people use each unit, the USA made more and so each machine was used less because there was more of them. It almost implies that you should have less MRI machines instead of more. The explanation needs to be better. UoLMephesto ( talk) 05:07, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
See also http://www.gao.gov/cghome/hccrisis/img0.html and the slides therefrom. The comptroller general of the US reports that overall, investment in the US is not significantly different from that in other countries; that the presence of insurance blunts sensitivity to price (the centralized UK system by contrast looks very carefully at value for money when assessing whether drugs/procedures/technology are effective medically and also cost effective); and also reports that the practitioners in the US do more unnecessary procedures. -- Tom ( talk) 08:32, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Be aware also that things you read in certain elements of the press. They often do not tell the full story. Like this about the NHS in the UK If you end up with an exotic disease that requires a lot of care, you're screwed. For example, the waiting list for any kind of major surgery is long, and for things like knee replacements you can wait for three years. Alzheimer's drugs aren't available on the National Health Service because they're too expensive.http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56327 But it is complete nonsense. The NHS absolutely does not "screw you" if you need a lot of care due to an exotic disease. Why should it? The waiting lists are not long (see the referenes in this Wikipedia article) and certainly not 3 years for a knee replacement. And regards the Alzheimers drugs, the reason was the NHS tested them for five years (!!) and found them to be ineffective. In fact the only way one could tell which group was on the drug and which on the placebo was the drug group had side effects. The matter went to court and the court upheld the decision of the NHS not to waste money on these drugs. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1246900,00.html and http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/aug/10/health.medicineandhealth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hauskalainen ( talk • contribs) 08:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
FreedomWarrior added text that insists that the government compels private medical practices (to provide medical services in support of socialized health care) and cited the Massachussetts scheme as evidence. GregAlton has since reverted it because the scheme relates to insurers not providers.
However, even as far as insurance is concerned, I thought it worth checking out the extent of compulsion. As far as I can see the State has laid down minimum standards for health care plans which enable those plans to attract tax deductible status and to enable residents or employers who buy or hold such plans to avoid fines for non-purchase of adequate health care. Also, only qualifiying plans can get on the connector web site run by the state which hooks up buyers and sellers. In effect, its a system of sticks and carrots. And when the state buys health care for low income families, it ensures the same minimum standards applies. Insurance companies can still sell sub-standard insurance to residents and residents are still free to buy them, but there will be negative financial consequences as well as potential negative health consequences. Rather than this being Big Brother government telling people what to do, it is democratically elected government incentivizing people and companies to do the right things. -- Tom ( talk) 12:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
To begin with, the statements that "pre-existing conditions do not affect a person's access to medical services," "changing employer does not have health care consequences" or "the state assumes the major costs of medical treatment and medicines at the time of need." are all unsourced. I have not objected to their inclusion because they represent the claims made by the advocates of socialized medicine on behalf of that proposition. I, however, have objected to saying that all socialized systems provide those benefits in the absence of a source, because Wikipedia is not a place for conjectures and original research.
Given that there is no fixed definition of what constitutes socialized medicine, it would be ludicrous to say that "the state assumes the major costs of medical treatment and medicines at the time of need" in all countries with socialized medicine or that "pre-existing conditions do not affect a person's access to medical services" because we can't say with any exact level of precision what countries have socialized medicine. Some countries with socialized medicine will meet all of the conditions that Tom claims, however, some will not.
I don't disagree that most of the conditions are to some degree true for the countries in this article, but it doesn't follow that it's true in all countries with socialized medicine.
If you want to say that this is true of the countries listed in this article (which are only some of the countries with socialized medicine), I don't have an objection. You can either list the countries or retain the wording some. I will, however, continue to object to any categorical statements that lack proof (and cannot be made given the multiplicity of definitions of what constitutes socialized medicine).
Finally, I define socialized medicine differently from how you define it. For me to start listing what I believe to be the exceptions, will only draw us back to a pointless definitional argument, which I am unwilling to engage in. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 20:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I see that Kborer is trying to demote the history of the term below the history of socialized medicine per se. The article established early on that the term is used only in limited environs by a limited set of users. The article is pimarily about a perjorative term. Therefore the history and usage of that term is what is of prime importance, not the history od socialized medicine. -- Tom ( talk) 15:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
the pro/con sections should be written as paragraphs, not lists. Kborer ( talk) 17:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I thought the article could use an image so I made this from the image on socialism and the image in the medicine portal. What do you guys think? Kborer ( talk) 01:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Re Revision 00:10, 26 December 2007 By Fedomwarrior "You've not established a relationship between health and productivity...Additionally, there are people with a negative social value. Treating all people does not guarantee higher "
First, stop with the name calling. I am not insane. Second, you shouldn't be throwing stones, as the Nazis were some of the biggest supporters of "rational" guidelines aimed at ensuring that the population was at its "healthiest"
I have not made the claim that "only people capable of producing deserve to be treated if they are sick." I have nowhere linked treatment to a person's productivity, because unlike you, I have not taken such a dim view of human nature that I think that people need to be coerced into helping others in need. Similarly, I have not made the claim that all people deserve to be treated (i.e. that someone is obligated to provide other people with treatment). My real point is this: treating all people does not necessarily lead to greater productivity. In the abstract (because you can never seem to bring yourself to debate on the basis of real, concrete examples), there are people who could be treated without contributing to increased aggregate wealth (i.e. the invalid or the disabled). Accordingly, your claim that it tends to increase national productivity is nothing but the product of bunk, obscurantist logic. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It has been widely reported that one of the reasons why costs are so high in the USA is that there really is a disconnect. For example for-profit hospitals are shown to give poorer advice to heart patients leaving hospital than not-for-profit hospitals... the kind of advice that will help prevent re-admission. Hospitals are scared of doing too little and therefore tend to do too mcuh investigation. The issue of prostrate investigations in the USA is a case in point. There is more info about this in the archived discussions. Similarly, hosptials are not incentivised to do less if the insurance company pays, and if the insurance company does not pay then the patient will have to. And patients do not have the specialist knowledge to question the treatments or costs he or she is faced with having to pay for. In publicly funded and provided care, hospitals do not do excessive work as that costs money that is better spent elsewhere. And its no good saying that public hospitals can pass on extra costs at will to taxpayers because they cannot. They have to work within budgets like the rest of us and politicians would be thrown out of office if there were high taxes and visible public waste of money in hospitals. The evidence is quite clear that public medicine is cheaper than private medicine and controls on costs and public accountabilty probably has a lot to do with it. -- Tom ( talk) 22:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please take your changes a bit at a time and explain what you are doing. There is no hurry. And try not to bring back old texts that we have worked on before and rejected. The first one that struck me was that you started calling socialized medicine "a system" . It is not "a system". It is a political slogan for a range of different systems, but I'll settle for the more neutral "term". It certainly is not a system. It will save a lot of effort if pay heed tp the discussions in the archive before bringing back rejected texts such as this. Regulation was another one that took a lot of argument and I don't want us to be going round in circles over that old chestnut again.-- Tom ( talk) 02:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I could probably find a similar number of opposing references. But we have been here before and this is becoming very tedious. Those countries that have such a system do not describe it as such. In the UK and Canada and Finland and I am sure in many other countries it is called the public health care system to distinguish it from the private health care system. Just as we call use the word public to describe certain schools, roads and libraries etc,. and not socialized schools, socialized roads and socialized libraries. Even the VA system is not tagged with this epithet. The term socialized was added to give it a whiff of negativity to the concept of public health care in political debate. Therefore it is a politically charged term which is sometimes used in the US to describe a public health care system. As such it is a political charged term for something else. And I really don't care how many references you find which do not mention this. A fact is a fact. -- Tom ( talk) 17:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You are wasting your time trying to re-write the article back to an earlier state. I did ask that you take this slowly because I can see that I am not going to agree with the changes you are making. And you have again been messing with the defintion in a way which is clearly not acceptable to other editors here. I fear that I will be reverting the changes you have made. I wish you would please read the discussions that are in the archive. The changes you are making are putting the article back to an earlier state and I see that as regressive and not progressive. -- Tom ( talk) 17:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Kborer: You have again added "In either case, it (a system where the government sets rules for how private practices can provide treatment for reimbursement by the state) ..... is different than single payer health insurance, where the government finances health care but is uninvolved in delivery." How exactly? Cato, which you are fond of quoting, refers to Canada's medicare system as "socialized medicine" and that IS a single payer system. I really must insist that you tell us WHY you are making this claim over and over again in spite of other editors' objections.-- Tom ( talk) 17:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
OK you have not heeded the warning not to make too many changes too quicky and have completely ignored the objections to your changing the dual nature of the defintion in the header para and brought in inconsistency as I have described above. I feel that I have no choice but to revert the article back to the state of play we were in yesterday. You have made many objectionable changes that simply cannot be undone.-- Tom ( talk) 18:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You have done it again. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Socialized_medicine&diff=180688175&oldid=180687138 . You have no support for this big re-write. Hence of you make such big changes they will be reverted. This is a contraversial article and it is best that we try to keep it fair and balanced and referenced and changes made which result from discussions. I can see no logic in the changes you are making other than to begin loading with POV and bringing up the scale things you want to say and demoting or removing things you don't agree with. Please work co-operatively and use this page.-- Tom ( talk) 22:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
What an absurd accusation. I made small, incremental changes by request so that editors could contest individual ones. I did this, and now I request that my edits be contested individually, and not rejected indiscriminately with vague reasons. Kborer ( talk) 00:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
We have two: one saying "most" precisely, the other stating that using the term in the non-narrow sense is "ignorant." Is there any citation that could meet your requirement, save a meta-analysis of the linguistic choices of professonial sub-groups. This behaviour is essentially wikilawyering. I am happy to put in direct quotes, such as the "ignoramus" quote.-- Gregalton ( talk) 21:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
How about this? "In the opinion of two noted health policy experts, most health policy experts do not use the term." I mean, that's the type of wikilawyering you're implying one should resort to. Your approach is absurd.-- Gregalton ( talk) 21:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, do you think I'm stupid? I know that there's a significant difference between using "most" and "some." Words have meanings. (In light of your insistence on using "most" in lieu of "some," you certainly seem to recognize that, too).
You and your cohort are trying to give readers the impression that those who use the broader definition are a bunch of nutcases, because few supposed self-respecting academics would deign to use the term "socialized medicine." In so doing, you were stealthily inserting your point of view not this article. When I objected to your efforts, you turned to an article with the opinions of two "noted health policy experts" to make the claim that "most" professionals would not use the term. I again objected, because that simply doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that some professionals object to using the term. If you want to claim that "most" (a majority, as I understand it) health professionals are opposed to using the term, then find some evidence (statistics) that defends that claim. Otherwise, stop trying to make broad generalizations that are aimed at discrediting socialized medicine's opponents. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 23:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
When you are saying that the majority of health professionals object to using that term, you are making a very significant claim that can color how readers interpret the information on this page. Accordingly, I don't believe that it is entirely unreasonable on my part to ask you to back that claim with statistical evidence.
While the opinions of two "notable" policy experts could forward a policy discussion, you are using their opinions in an area that is outside of their field of expertise. That most of their friends in the field might be adverse to socialized medicine does not necessarily mean that most health care experts are adverse to using it. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 00:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom, of course you'd agree with Gregalton. The two of you are grasping at straws to come up with new ways of smearing the opponents of socialized medicine. Very simply, the opinions of your two so-called experts can only shed light on the opinions of a small cross-section of the health policy community, because we do not know the extent of their interactions with other colleagues or to what extent they are acquainted with the existing literature.
You can rely, foolishly, on arguments of authority if you wish. I will not. Find some real, substantive evidence which proves that the field is mostly opposed to using the term, or just drop this whole worthless line. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 16:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
FreedomWarrior. You removed this
with the edit summary "This is not your personal blog. That's nothing but your silly opinion. Take it elsewhere".
First of all it is not my opinion and I am not blogging. I've heard that opinion or opinions like it in the Sicko movie and in many places elsewhere. But as a piece of logical argument it seems faultless to me. It fundamentally describes the problem with the health care system in the US today as I hear it being expressed (which I suspect is why you want it deleted from the article). Insurance is all about pooling risk. As soon as someone's knowledge of a risk is changed there can begin a game of upmanship between insurer and insured with one party trying to gain at the expense of the other. Now I accept that this game works both ways, as insured can try to hoodwink and gain financial advantage over the insurer (by not declaring known facts) just as much as the insurer can play safe (by adding exclusions and loading premiums to maximise the chance of not making a loss). But the end result is as I expressed it.... the sick don't benefit from this game and the objective of pooling risk is defeated. But with a nation as the pool and compulsory insurance with a single fund there is no incentive to play this destructive game. Your labeling this as "nothing but your silly opinion" is nonsense. If a person moves from one state to another in the US he often has to change insurer, right? He carries with him/her his health history which could have become poor. He/she has to declare it and will surely be penalised under the new contract. His/her former risk pool status is changed. In national health systems, the insurer does not even have to worry about this, but a single private insurer worries about it very much. Your reasoning in more detail please for deleting the claim. Simply categorizing it as blogging is not good enough. -- Tom ( talk) 00:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Since you insist on turning this article into your personal blog, I am going to respond to your posts as I would on one. Here are a couple of points in response to your non-nonsensical claim:
1) Coverage exclusions keep costs low for those who are already in the risk pool. Therefore, it makes sense from the perspective of existing users. Potential users don't count, since the insurance company doesn't have any obligation towards them (it only has an obligation to its existing customers).
2) Insurance companies charge individuals on the basis of their impact on the risk premium. Those who are expected to use more of the monies in the pool are liable to get charged more. As such, the elderly are generally charged more because they, for obvious reasons, are liable to use more of the monies in the risk pool.
3) Coverage is given to all on the basis of what their sickness' priority in those "rational" guidelines that you so love. Accordingly, some are liable to get treatment more rapidly than others, and not on the same basis.
4) The young and the healthy are penalized under socialized systems. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 00:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I see you repeated the personal blog slur. I know why insurers do 1)-2) above and it was the statement you deleted... i.e. that it is logical for them to do so. But 2) means the sick pay more... but the issue in National Health systems is that you join the pool soon after conception and you stay in the pool until you die. So becoming sick per se NEVER changes cost contributions as it does woth private insurance if you change insurers for example. I don't think that is silly. Why do you? It is a clear benefit to the person who is insured. You have added another side swipe at me in point 3) but I'll ignore it. The point you make is wrong though ..these are the rules about priorities so "the same basis" is still correct. As to point 4) that is crazy. The whole point of insurance is that we pay to cover costs when we are healthy because sickness is something unpredicable and its costs are unpredictable. We pay our insurance and pray never to have claim on it (nobody wants to be sick). Thats the same under both kinds of systems (except insurance is paid from taxes). Getting old is more predictable but the key factor remains health. It seems to me odd that the old should be expected to pay more (as they would do in the US I presume if there were no medicare) at a time when they are probably no longer earning. We don't know if we will live a long life or a short life so planning for private insurance must have been a nightmare for the elderly in the US (and I guess to some extent it still is). In the UK the elderly do not have to pay for prescription drugs, let alone medical bills. The statement you deleted included "The sick and the elderly are not penalised financially for being sick and old". I think that is a fair comment and deserves to be in the article. It is not IMHO "silly opinion" which only belongs in a blog ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hauskalainen ( talk • contribs) 01:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Why are the sick and elderly being penalized financially? They obviously require more care and resources. Why shouldn't they pay their fair share like everyone else in the risk pool? Why shouldn't someone who's been in the workforce for forty and fifty years and presumably made investments and saved in preparation for their retirement be expected to have enough money to pay for their premiums? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:50, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom, you need to stop treating this page as if it were your personal blog. If you have a sourced, factual claim that you'd like to add, then do so. You are not entitled, however, to ram your opinion on here, especially without any sources. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 17:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
What in particluar are you referring to? Let's examine them one by one. I think you are POV pushing too. And when we have finished discussing your objections to my edits we can start discussing yours. -- Tom ( talk) 18:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I am POV pushing. I dont' mind admitting it, because you are too. The difference between us, however, is that I'm not arrogant enough to think myself an authority on health care policy. Usually, I cite my changes. You reversed my edits without even dealing with the requests that I made for additional sources. First, your contention that the term is "used principally in United States politics" is nothing but conjecture. An opinion piece from the left-leaning New York Times does not make it a factual statement. Find a real, academic source if you want to add it to the top of the page, or move it down to the criticism section (as an opinion). Secondly, you reversed an edit that eliminated your claim that "health professionals tend not to use the term at all," despite not having effectively dealt with my criticism of that claim on the talk page (my post is the last). Deal with the criticism on the talk page or just drop the issue. Furthermore, I didn't notice the claim about "The narrow definition permits a clear distinction from single payer health insurance systems where the government finances health care but is not involved in care delivery." I don't care about this. I'm fine with keeping it. I just prefer the wording on "It can describe a system where the government funds and manages health care by directly employing health care providers or, broadly, a government-regulated system for providing health care by all by means of subsidies and taxation." Finally, it's kind of rude to reverse an editors changes before going to the talk page. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Well at least you have admitted to POV pushing. Actually before I comment on the points you raise I want to say something at the outset. I see that you often highlight "trigger" words as interwiki links. What is a trigger word? A trigger word is one that is designed to trigger an emotion in the American public. Something which has been inculcated over many years. People in Europe for example do not share these emotions to anywhere near the same extent. The ones you choose to trigger are those which the US public have been trained to think as negative and bad like socialism, communism taxation government control regulation Soviet Union Cuba. I am surprised you haven't yet managed to add the word liberal to the text. And if someone adds a positive word (with or without a link) like democratic or elected then you do your utmost to delete it or demote it in the pecking order. The link to health care systems is a case in point because your alter ego has posted there a graphic which depicts heathcare systems along two axes designed to trigger along the same lines. Government finance (bad) versus private finance (good), and government control (bad) versus private control (good). And guess what, if you've been triggered in the way you have been trained to, you will come to the conclusion that free market health care must be very good... it has the best of both worlds! And socialized medicine must be very bad... it is bad in two ways!! Well, I think this kind of relatively subtle POV pushing is quite dangerous because it is mostly subliminal. When I have replaced that with a meaningful link with real information in it such as to publicly funded health care is gets deleted (well it did several times yesterday. And NOT ONCE did either you or your alter ego explain why you were making those changes. Not once. -- Tom ( talk) 18:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't care whether I have credibility in your eyes or not. I am quite tired of your puerile efforts to turn this article into a blog on behalf of socialized medicine. I am not going to allow you to flagrantly violate Wikipedia's rules regarding citations. I do not have to disprove anything to remove it from this encyclopedia. You are the one who has to prove a claim to add it on here. If you have no interest in searching for a source, then the claim shall be removed. If you insist on adding it without a source, I will remove it and complain to the proper authorities. Frankly, I don't know how my asking you to provide sources for claims that very clearly bias the article in favor of socialized medicine makes me "crazy" (I guess it's just the stalinesque name calling that you and your yolk engage in when you can't rationally argue something). Freedomwarrior ( talk) 20:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I had not finished. Re your final point "Is it rude to delete texts without discussing first"? Well yes it is, but its a bit rich because I am only following yours and Kborer's precedents. Your (you and Kborer's) return(s) from your WIKI editing vacation(s) began a sudden spate of editing aimed to put the article back to the way you had it previously (trigger word links and all,including pushing up the order of references that Cato article which did not support the defintion but did bring the Cato article up the pecking order of reference which is one of your POV tactics). Not a whiff of discussion about this before it was done. You just went ahead and did it. So I (and Gregalton too) had little choice but to revert as they were often very big changes designed to push POV.
As for providing references or sources for statements, that is an old tactic of yours and now I am afraid it won't wash. I'll give some eamples of the crazy demands you make.
Well I am not engaging any more in this. You have lost all credibility in my eyes. I am not going to provide sources for obvious claims. You can prove them wrong if you like, so its over to you.
As you specifically asked about point 2. above I will answer it this way. Firstly, the observation came initially not from me but some months back by User:Nbauman when discussing pejoratives I think. He said that medical journals do not allow the term to be used, and checking back on numerous articles where there are comparisons between the US and other countries, he is right. Nor is the term used by the WHO. The term is simply not used. Except I have seen it in some medical journal items but only in the context of US political debate. Is there really an editorial ban by such journals? I have no idea but I will ask User:Nbauman. Is it likely to be true? I suspect so because it is so politially charged. Am I going to dig any further to prove the point. No. Will that stop me from reinserting the claim without proof? No. If you can prove it otherwise, please go ahead and get the proof. Its so not in doubt (except in your mind perhaps)
I have no interest in this subject other than when I came across the article I recognized that it immediately was designed in part to paint an unflattering picture of health care in my home country. I have investigated some of the claims by Cato and the CPA which are lnked to in the article and they have (amazingly) so far, each been shown to my own satisfaction to be false. The stuff about waiting lists and MRI were just astoundingly wrong. So I have been slowly been adding factual information and I sense that you are frustrated that I have done this. Well, I am sorry about that. But it is not POV pushing. Its telling the truth. And the fact is, you (and Kborer) have been rumbled! Time to give up your hopeless quest. Your dedication to this task is so great though that I suspect you are being paid to do it. Nobody is THIS dedicated to pushing against a subject that they can have had very little direct experience of. I have lots of personal experience of two systems outside the US and both have worked fine for me and my family. I have one indirect experience of US health care. My cousin collapsed at the aiport on his arrival due to low blood sugar (he is diabetic). He was fine having sucked on some candy. But the airport insisted on him being transfered to the hospital. An ambulance was called and they checked him over, did some tests and released him later in the day with no medication administered. Fine. Except the hospital and ambulance bill came to over 15,000 dollars! UNBELIEVABLE!!! They hardly did a thing!
(Your tourism industry needs to know that many people from abroad cannot afford to take holidays in the US because the medical insurance component for a holiday is so expensive. A person over 65 years old in the UK going on holiday to continental Europe for 30 days pays £100. The same cover to the USA is £229 (over $500). http://www.thomson.co.uk/editorial/legal/insurance-gold.html#Summary_Benefits (see table at the end) Many people these days will actually go to Europe and not pay for travel insurance. They just get a free European Health Insurance Card because then they get the benefit of adopting temporarily the same rights to free or low cost access to health care as the locals have in that country and forget about the other risks. -- Tom ( talk) 20:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom, this article and the talk page is not your blog. The last post on the talk page is an example of what I mean. I could care less whether a person traveling in the US is insured or not. That's not something that keeps me up at night. If you find yourself in need of talking about the so-called injustices of free medicine, then go to a Marxist website where your rants will be appreciated. This is not the place to argue those issues. Moreover, this is not the place for you to try and push your opinion in an unsubstantiated way. If you want to add something on this article, then find a source and stop violating Wikipedia's rules regarding citations. Finally, I resent your accusation that I am somehow paid. This is simply an issue that I am interested in. My sole goal is to keep people like you (who rely on democratic arguments to strip people of their right to property) from distorting reality to gather enough support to ram a policy with which I vehemently disagree down my throat. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 21:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Freedomwarrior: As to blogging, the point I am making is that I have no direct interest in the US political debate. It makes no difference to me whether you keep the system you have or change it (though it might affect me as a tourist). In have no reason to push a POV. My changes to this article have all been aimed at removing bias and telling the truth about the subject. Your edits are, most of the time, subtle or not so subtle POV pushing. I reverted your last 3 blatant attempts for POV pushing. For all the reasons given above. You have admitted POV pushing. I suggest we go to one of the WP arbitration routes to resolve this impasse. If you want to report my behaviour elsewhere please go ahead and try. I don't think many will think that you are being reasonable. --
Tom (
talk)
22:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter whether I am POV pushing. I am doing it within the rules. I am using Wikipedia's rules to block you from turning this article into a blog on behalf of socialized medicine.
In one of your previous posts on this page, you complained about my supposedly purposefully highlighting certain "code words," yet you have had ample opportunity to highlight the words that you think somehow make your position more attractive. For instance, you object that I eliminated all references to the word "elected" (because you seem to think that vox populi, vox dei). If you remember, I objected to your making a nonsensical generalization which suggests that all countries with socialized medicine somehow have elected governments. I did not object to your including reference to some countries having elected governments. As usual, however, you did not narrow your statement into one that's actually true. It is not my fault that you are not sufficiently capable of making nuanced, but correct points.
You claim that " My changes to this article have all been aimed at removing bias and telling the truth about the subject," yet all that you are doing is adding unsourced information, which adds an implicit bias on behalf of socialized medicine. If you can find a source for your claims, in line with Wikipedia Rules (I invite you to read them) then feel free to add it. Otherwise, stop violating the rules. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 22:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I remind you that NPOV also affects the structure of articles and you blatantly change the structure to push POV. Also you have admitted to POV pushing which is a clear breach of WP policy. I make no such admission. So I invite you to follow the rules too. It is amazing that so many citations which are negative come from just 3 sources. CPA, Manhattan Institute and Cato, all of which have declared bias on the issue. As these institutions regularly put out falsehoods and misleading statements I do not think they really qualify as valid citations for factual information. I just deleted two such references at Publicly-funded health care. I look forward to examining the truth of statements made in those articles with other editors there. It has been most enlightening doing it here.-- Tom ( talk) 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
One would have to be blind to not realize that you and I are POV pushing. However, your claim that I am somehow purposefully changing the "structure of the article" to favor my POV is nothing but sheer and utter nonsense. We both have strong opinions on this matter. There is one difference between us: I do not come to this page and insist that my opinions be treated as a matter of fact. Most of my changes on this article have been aimed at ensuring that you do not transform this article into a blog, because I do not have the requisite time to research information to add on this page. If you look at the record, few of my changes have been additions.
With regards to CPA, Manhattan Institute and Cato, I could care less what you think. I would warn you, however, to be mindful of deleting sourced material from those sources, because your attempts to silence your opposition will only further demonstrate how weak and desperate your position happens to be. . Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Freedomwarrior. Your attempts to use internal wikilinks are blatant attempts subliminal POV pushing. Do you really think that people do not know what government and control means? What possible reason do you have for wikifying these words????-- Tom ( talk) 00:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Tom, you have to be kidding me. Your latest accusations are about as absurd as the ones that you made of me and Kborer being the same editor.
If I seriously wanted to engage in POV pushing, I would do what you do: make up stuff and try and force it into this article. As a general rule, I tend to add wikilinks whenever I edit something (you can look at some of the other articles I've edited, if you want confirmation). I wikified those words because I-- unlike you--believe in subtleties and recognize that those words have multiple meanings/usages. Take the term "government," for instance, which can mean "the ruling power in a political society" (i.e. the Brown government or the Blair government) or "the apparatus through which a governing body functions and exercises authority" (the state itself). Given the debates that we've had on the different forms of control and the different kinds of government out there, I don't think that there's a reason to exclude terms that can edify this article's readers. If you have a good reason for removing those terms, other than some paranoid, then let's hear it. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
We are a long way from April 1. And I was not born yesterday. And neither am I paranoid. If you persist I will just revert your isiosynchorisies (if that's how you prefer it,...tho' I still call it sublimiinal POV pushing) unless you can find substantial support for your actions from other regular editors here. If needs be I will take this to arbitration. -- Tom ( talk) 01:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You may not have been born yesterday, but you'd certainly fool me. Your contention that I have somehow been altering the article to include subliminal messages is laughable. Let me remind you once again that this is not a democracy. Vox populi is not vox dei on Wikiedpia, and your continued attempts to transform an intellectual discussion into a straw poll are contrary to its policies. (Moreover, they show how intellectually lacking your positions happen to be). If you want to take this to arbitration, then by all means. I'm sure that the arbitrators would enjoy a good laugh. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You have already admitted to POV pushing. That is unacceptable with or without references. The internal wiki links cannot be THAT important that you insist that they are left in... and in fact I still contend that this is subtle POV pushing (as is your moving the defintion link away from publicly-funded health care towards health care systems which has similar bias. I have called for 3rd party help to help resolve this current spate of fractious warring. I am content to wait and see what happens.-- Tom ( talk) 02:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Freedomwarrior: You seem insistent on your contention that the term is used neutrally to describe public medicine by medical professionals. It is impossible to prove non-use so therefore I an going to ask you to demonstrate common usage. Please therefore give an example of 3 articles from 3 different medical journals (not pamphlets or similar from biased sources) where public medicine is referred to as "socialized medicine" other than in the context of its use in political debate. If you do this I will seriously reconsider my position about the use of this term. Not before then. If you are right (that it is commonly used in a professional context to describe public medicine in a neutral manner) this should not be difficult for you.-- Tom ( talk) 01:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not going to engage in these puerile efforts, and I am tiring of having to spend the time that I've been spending on this article to stave off your silly edits. I am not your lapdog. I do not respond to your commands. I am not going to go looking for information in journals that suit your definition of what constitutes a valid source, because I am not the one who is trying to add any information on this article. If you want to add something on this encyclopedia, the burden of proof falls on you to prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. Quite simply, I do not have to convince you about the usage of the term and you do not have to convince me about its usage. You have to prove that it is used as you are claiming that it is used. Otherwise, it will be an unauthoritative he said, she said argument. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You have provided a single academic's opinion about his colleague's views. How does that constitute reasonable proof? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I realize this is a very contentious subject, but the back and forth edits aren't contributing anything to the quality of the article.
In the short term, I'll go through the article now and try to clean up the language and remove any obvious POV issues that exist. Considering how rapid the back and forth has been with the edits, I might suggest taking a day or two to before making further edits. Also, keep in mind the Three-revert rule WP:3RR, which states that the same editor can not make more than 3 whole or partial reverts on the same article within a 24 hour period.
The article is in need of significant cleanup. The length is simply too long for the subject. The sections on Criticism and Support are not appropriate for an encyclopedic article. For the most part, the content of those two sections can be eliminated without affecting the article quality, and important information from those sections can be incorporated into the rest of the text.
In the long term, the goal should be merger with Publicly-funded health care. Instead of working on small edits for this article, it would be best to incorporate its unique content in the Publicly-funded health care article. Most of the content doesn't need to be merged, and if there is any debate on whether or not a section of text has NPOV, it's probably best not to move it.
I hope this helps. In the mean time I'll go through the article now and remove any obviously POV problems, and perhaps most importantly, keep in mind the Three revert rule. Dgf32 ( talk) 01:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
A request on POV issues was noted on the Wikipedia:Third_opinion page. I'm reviewing the article and discussion page now and will post further comments shortly. Dgf32 ( talk) 02:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Tom, in one of your recent edits, you modified to introduction to link socialized medicine with publicly-funded health care because you claim that they are basically the same thing. Would it surprise you that I think otherwise? For those of us who subscribe to the broader definition of socializded medicine, it is more than publicly-funded health care. Therefore, I will be reversing that change, because there is no reason why your views on the matter should trump those of other editors. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
As for definitions I think we came close to a sensible defintition before Christmas, but then the edit warring began as two editors tried to change it all back. I suspect Freedomwarrior is now alluding to a claim he/she makes that regulation of privately funded medicine is also socialized, even though this is not a mainstream definition. This is not under the umbrella of "publicly funded health care". We also have the views of certain respected health profesionals and some dictionaries and editors here that the term does have a specific meaning, which is where the health care delivery system is publicly managed as in Britain, Spain or Finland. But usage by certain pressure groups (and the media therefrom) has extended the defintion way beyond that. As a result some even say that it is now so abused it has no meaning at all.
I have mostly confined my contribution here to extending the Wikipedia content about publicly managed health care delivery systems. In England we just call this Public Health Care if we are not talking specifically about the Britsh NHS. But I am told that Public Health Care can mean something different in the US. Therefore I have been adding this information to the socialized medicine article (even though the term socialized medicine sounds laughable to the British ear). If we can get a consensus from a wide range of editors where information about such systems should be collated I'd be happy to move it there. -- Tom ( talk) 04:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton, you may disagree that the origins of socialized medicine are in Bismarck's health care system, but that's what M. Gregg Bloche said in the New England Journal of Medicine article I cited, so it's not absurd. Nbauman ( talk) 02:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Freedomwarrior. Welcome back after your 2 week break. You deleted my statement that time taken to get a first appointment with a specialist and time for the specialist to make any diagnostic tests would not be regarded by most people as waiting time for treatment. Clearly the UK government now includes this time in the waiting time figure (which it was not before), but most people regard true "waiting time" as the "the time taken for my turn in the line" to come around, i.e. "dead time" because nothing is happening. Normal time to get a first appointment (say a week) and the time to do blood tests, or in hospital observations prior to making a diagnostic and treatment decision is not really "time waiting in line" and this is why I think it is reasonable to have this in the article, and why most people would not regard this as "waiting time". I do not think international comparisons on waiting times would include such time as "waiting" as they are all normal and neccessary activities.-- Tom ( talk) 08:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This page has been temporarily protected due to edit-warring. Please use this talkpage to discuss your dispute, and if that fails, use the Dispute Resolution system on Wikipedia.
Page protection is not an endorsement of the current version of this page. To unprotect, either wait the 24 hour period, or file a request at Requests for Page Protection. Please do not place requests for page protection on my talk page: Such requests will go unfulfilled. Thank you. ~Kylu ( u| t) 05:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
These programs are not really socialized medicine as the article discusses. Instead (unlike the veterans' health care), they are single-payer systems which utilize private doctors and hospitals with the government paying. This distinction should be made more clear. Papercrab ( talk) 19:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been troubled for some time that these two user accounts may be the same person or directed by the same person, even if from a different ISP address (which is very easy to do). My suspicions began many months ago when in a mild dispute with Kborer, FreedomWarrior took up the same argument but using much stronger and much more opinionated views. Since then Kborer has been reasoned but generally one directional whereas FreedomWarrior has been one directional but very unreasoned or to be generous, opinionated at one extreme. Then recently Kborer started supporting some of the (in my view extreme) opinions held by FreedomWarrior which, in my opinion has been out of character for Kborer. What's more, after a spate of edit warring FreedomWarrior said something to the effect that "we can go on arguing this using shell accounts"..... which raised my suspicions even further. I therefore undertook a review of the edit history of these users. One account is older and the other and most accounts make several edits on most days. But each editor has had least 4 significant periods when he/she has been away from editing for at least 5 days, but I noticed that 2 of these periods have been the same for both FreedomWarrior and Kborer. And the recent disappearance of Kborer and Freedom Warrior and their re-emergence from silence in the last day after another break from editing by both editors has , if anything, just strengthened this view. One of the accounts was created on 1 January which may be happenchance, but then maybe not.
I am not a statistician but as there are 365 different 5 day consecutive periods in any year I think that the chances of two editors choosing the same 5 day period to be absent on two separate occassions out of 4 each is quite small.
I am not inclined to raise an offical complaint and the evidence gathered above was done on the back of an envelope which has now been discarded and may even contain some minor inaccuracies. But it does make me think that I am less inclined to take seriously the edits made by these editors who mostly seem bent on giving the article content a negative gloss. I also suspect that we may see new editors emerging to take on the task of ensuring that the article keeps pushing negativity around the concept. Time will tell..
I mention these things for the benefit of other editors here. Yes I expect that Kbrorer and FreedomWarrior will express outrage at what I have suggested. But there you are. I am one for plain speaking and I have merely reported what I believe.-- Tom ( talk) 23:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not outraged, I'm just amused... Freedomwarrior ( talk) 23:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom and Gregalton, since both of you are so keen on insisting that an objective definitions for terms like "wealthy" and "industrialized" exist, perhaps you can provide them. At what point is a country objectively "wealthy"? Additionally, at what point is a country objectively "industrialized"? Finally, explain why some "industrialized" countries with significant GDPs that don't have universal health care, like China or India, shouldn't be counted alongside the US. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 05:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I won't live with a variation of that statement, because there's not a single reason to define wealth in such a way that you only mention the United States. By some definitions (i.e mine), China is a wealthy industrialized country (after all, it has one of the biggest GDPs in the world). Why are you glossing over the fact that China doesn't have universal health care? Is there a reason? Why should your opinion that the United States is the only country without universal health care get to trump mine, which is that there are countless other industrialized and affluent countries without universal health care? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 07:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Tom, stop trying to modify the terms of debate, I don't need to find a country that is "wealthier" than the United States since the blurb was discussing "wealthy" countries. I also don't see why I need to agree with your measuring a country's wealth based on their GDP per capita, mostly because I don't see why individual wealth would be a consideration in a system that is built upon wealth redistribution.
Gregalton, I have not disputed your claim that the United States is an industrialized and wealthy country. I have limited myself to disputing your claim that it is the only "wealthy" and "industrialized" country without some form of so-called universal health care. Why not China? You did not answer the question when I first posed it. You have simply gone on to make a rather hollow argument by authority as to why the United States is a wealthy country, etc. What is the cut off point? What is the GDP per capita or the aggregate GDP that lets one say that a country is wealthy? What is the approrpiation level of industrialization? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
You've got to be kidding me. There's no way that I can effectively "question the definition" put forth by any of your sources, because that's their opinion That would be asking me to go and convince Marx that capitalism's demise is not predestined. That's non-sense.
If there is such a "consistent understanding," then perhaps you could give me a figure that determines whether a country is "wealthy" and "industrialized" or not. Again, why is China, with one of the largest aggregate GDPs in the world, not a wealthy and industrialized country? What's the cut off point. Stop evading the question. Give me a number. Don't tell me that there's a consensus, because I don't see one. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 21:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
That doesn't tell me anything. Different sources use different figures. Again, why should China be excluded? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 21:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It would be better if Freedomwarrior takes this argument to Talk: Universal health care ... there are many more editors there and, who knows, maybe he will find someone there who can provide the references needed to support the assertion that the US is not dissimilar to China in industrialization and absolute wealth terms. The paragraph objected to in socialized medicine does seem to have been copied straighy from Universal health care and is on the topic of UHC rather than socialized medicine. If you do that I'll settle for whatever comes out of that. -- Tom ( talk) 22:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm starting to wonder if they teach common sense in schools anymore. You don't quite seem to realize that there is no scientific, objective way of ascertaining whether a country is "wealthy" and "industrialized" In other words, the questions that one would ask to determine whether a country is either of those two things is open to individual interpretation. For instance, you might say that measuring GDP per capita is a more effective approach to determine whether a country is wealthy, while I might argue that looking at the aggregate GDP is better. Who's right? Well, that's a question of opinion. Another example, what's the appropriate level of "industrialization" for a country to be considered "industrialized?" Indeed, what does it mean for a country to be "industrialized"? Is it possible for a country to be "un-industrialzied"? Again, those are all matters of opinion. Taking it to another page not going to solve the problem, it's just going to protract a rather pointless and mindless disagreement that is based on our unique opinions. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 20:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton , I do not need to go out and find a source, because I am not trying to insert my opinion on this page. If there's such a broad, factual consensus that doesn't hinge on someone's rather insignificant opinion, why don't you try to answer the questions that I've posed?
Earlier in this thread you conceded that you are simply trying to sneak an opinion on here when you said "Note this is not my opinion, but the opinion of two citations." Your narrow definition of what constitutes a "wealthy" and "industrialized" is a matter of opinion. It does not belong on this page. It is a violation of POV, simple. It is a normative claim, not a positive claim. Is the distinction not clear to you? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 23:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
If "any trivial attempt at research would provide lots of info" and you are as knowledgeable as you seem to believe, then answering the questions that I've posed shouldn't present a problem. Why not end the controversy and do so? I'll tell you why: you are not going to answer my questions, because doing so would undermine your preposterous and absurd claim that there exists an "objective" standard for determining whether a country happens to be "industrialized" and "wealthy."
In response to my objections, you have said that "Well, that's not the way it works." Perhaps you should read the rules, since your edits are a violation of WP:ASF
You can cite as many citations as you want, however, that does not give you the right to violate the rules and peddle your own particular views as fact. A socialist is not allowed to come on wikipedia and state, as a factual claim, that the proletariat revolution is inevitable. Even if he cites Marx and other writers who've held this belief, it is clear that his claim is nothing but an opinion, which must be treated as such. It is not an objective claim. Just like the claim that you've been trying to push on here.
I am going to suppress terms that "I don't like," because you don't have a right to impose your opinion on this page. I refuse to permit an obviously spiteful attacks upon the United States by people intent on pushing socialized medicine. There are many other wealthy countries that do not have socialized medicine, which you are giving a free pass to. Why? Why do you insist on attacking the United States and not those countries? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 05:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The statement itself is not spiteful, but the spirit that motivates it. It is another attempt to bash the United States, for what socialists perceive to be its faults (and I believe to be its virtues). Sadly, the United States has socialized medicine. It just does not have so-called universal health care.
I have no problem with stating that the United States does not have universal health care (the statement that I have been advocating reflects that--an objective truth). I object to passing off the claim that it is the only "wealthy" and "industrialized" country that does not have so-called universal health care as a matter of fact, because I don't know what those two terms mean. Again, how are you judging whether a country is wealthy or not? Are you doing it by per capita GDP or by aggregate GDP? What is the objective standard that you are using to determine whether a country is either of those two? You keep pointing to sources, but that doesn't solve the fundamental problem that your claim is an OPINION.
Your insistence on trying to push the claim that United States is the only wealthy country without so-called universal health care as a factual statement is nothing but blatant POV pushing. No source can turn an opinion into a fact. An opinion is an opinion is an opinion. Cite as many sources as you want, the revolution isn't coming...
If you want to include those statements as reference in the bottom, then feel free to. I don't object to letting readers see them and coming to conclusions. I just object to your efforts at foisting your opinion into this article.
How does your statement not violate WP:ASF rules? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freedomwarrior ( talk • contribs) 06:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton, why should GDP per capita be the measure of a country's wealth? Why is per capita wealth at all a consideration when discussing a socialist scheme for redistribution? At what level of GDP per capita?
"This definition is commonly used in combination to refer to OECD countries, although some might exclude a few OECD countries or include non-OECD countries for various reasons." On what basis are countries included or excluded? Is there an objective cut-off point? Or is is the arbitrary whims of some bureaucrats? Why is China not a developed country?
I am not vandalizing this article by asking that you provide an objective standard for a term. The same question was asked in the United States of the Democratic candidates running for president. They all gave three different answers. Your pretension at a consensus on this position is absurd. You are foisting a value judgment in this article. This is not a blog for you and your fellow socialists to attack the United States. Take your envy elsewhere. I am removing your obviously biased and subjective claim based on the rules of this encyclopedia. It does not constitute vandalism.
Finally, you say "You may think the US has socialized medicine and China to be wealthy, but these are according to your own definitions." Why does it matter that you go off and find your kindred spirit (also America haters, probably because of a nice degree of socialist xenophobia and envy) to defend what is an obviously arbitrary definition of wealth and industrialization.
If your so willing to compromise, then what's your idea? I am not going to let you ram your opinion point on here, simply because you have sources. It would be akin to the example of the Marxist citing Marx to defend his absurd position that I mentioned beforehand.
Tom, it doesn't matter that China is on the same level as the United States. The quote isn't that there aren't countries as "wealthy" or as "industrialized" as the United States without socialized medicine. Rather, the quote is that the United States is the only "wealthy" and "industrialized" country without socialized medicine. You have not established what a "wealthy" and "industrialized" country is. You say that "virtually all wealthy industrialized countries now have UHC." What are they? Who are they? How do you determine that?
Also Tom, that the claim is often made doesn't make it true. The Marxists have been proclaiming the proletariat Revolution for the past 160 years now, and yet that hasn't made it true. It is absurd to make an argument on the ground of tradition, which is what you are doing.
Finally, it doesn't matter that you think that "on balance" the comment should stay in the header. You have provided no valid argument for why it should stay. Tell me what criteria you are using to determine whether a country is wealthy and industrialized. Why does no one give me numbers? I don't care about little fluffy statements. I want cold hard numbers. The readers deserve to know what objective standard we are using to determine why China and a whole host of other countries with significant levels of aggregate wealth are given a free pass. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 16:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Apparently, anyone with a source can add anything on here (except me, of course, since Tom has repeatedly deleted cited statements that I've added on this page).
Nbauman, you should take a statistics course, because there is an objective means of ascertaining the income level at which heart disease cause more deaths than infectious disease. It's quite simple: you find out the number of deaths in each group, and then compare the numbers. While I don't know if the numbers to do that are available to perform such a comparison, I do know that there is an objective "scientific" method for dealing with the issue. There may be outliers as you've pointed out, but the number afforded through the statistical method is still a firm cut off point (and one supported by conventional social science techniques).
As you yourself have claimed, "there may be some agencies that have drawn dollar boundaries between industrial and developed countries, but I don't know if they make sense." They don't make sense because the cut off is arbitrary. What is "poverty?" What is "wealth?" These are all normative concepts with no rigid definitions. Using a malleable definition to harangue a definition is just crass beyond belief. Pick a number and defend it. Don't take me for a ride.
Escape Orbit, your suggestion gives me pause but it's acceptable, because I have no desire of going on and on with editors who are intent on foisting opinions on this article. It does have some issues, namely, the United States does have publicly-funded health care. It does not have so-called universal health care. If that's corrected though, I'll accept it. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton, the problem with the sources that you are using is that their determinations are based on political considerations and their own prejudices. As you yourself point out, "Israel being a bit of an outlier, nobody knows how to classify it, partly for political reasons" It is irresponsible to foist a statement on here on the basis of an incoherent standard which leads to "roughly the same 25-odd countries" being labeled as developed. There should be a consistent standard, which leads to the same 25-odd countries being labeled in the same vain. My preference would be that we drop all pretense of arbitrarily labeling countries on this page, rather than use the preferences of bureaucrats to make (un)authoritative claims about subjects. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Obviously, data needs to be collected by someone. I don't object to that. I just object to their spin on the data. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
You're right. They're used to guilt the "developed" countries into fleecing their citizens for those of "developing" countries. It's usage doesn't change the fact that it's based on arbitrary determinations. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 19:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Then why haven't you even attempted to list the criteria? What is the "objective" standard that you and the UN are using? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 20:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record, I would actually not bothered if that whole sentence was deleted but I suspect that others here would as a matter of principle.
As regards sources Freedomwarrior has said that I have repeatedly deleted cited statements that he has added on this page. If he added a citation from a source that is academic in nature (peer reviewed) I think I would be unlikely to delete it unless it actually did not actually support the statement in the article. From memory alone I would say that I usually delete material from you that is POV pushing. Unfortunately many citations that were in the article many months ago came from non-academic bodies that are blatently biased and demonstrably false. Personally I feel that citation sourced from Cato, The Center for Policy Analysis, The Manhattan Institute and other bodies do not fit well with WP policy on sources which says that "articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". I have been able to demonstrate over and over over again that the material these bodies put out are neither accurate or reliable. They consistently use data selectively (and often out of date), they treat exceptional news stories as the rule, and often misrepresent data in other ways. They even to lead the users of their sources to make their own false conclusions whilst being careful not to draw the conclusions themselves which is very clever but totally decitful. I know that Nbauman feels that these sources are widely quoted and therefore allowable in WP, so the only other alternative is to add other factual data up against it (which makes the article messy and difficult to read) or to remove the original claim and the source (because it is contentious and not demonstrably true).
Other non-cited edits you make that I delete are subtle POV pushing. WP policy states that it is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates. A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable. But on many many occassions you add words like "some people say" or "many would argue" to imply that a particlar statement has low or high support. I regard those additions as POV pushing and may delete them. As I have come to see how you work here and have grown weary of your POV pushing I may even have applied the same tactic myself against your own edits (but hopefully they are no longer in the article.
I am rather hurt by accusations that somehow I am anti-American and attacking America. I have great admiration for America in many many ways and most Americans I meet are very humane, loving and caring people with a great spirit of community. I do sense that Americans are distrustful of government but that I think has more to do with corruption in politics. The UK and Finland have low levels of political corruption (there are exceptions of course!) and people do trust their government on the whole. Americans admire self-sufficiency over dependency (which is not a bad thing at all) and that may be one reason why there is hostility to socialized medicine. But it has become so clear that the American health system is itself corrupt in many ways that people are now looking for radical solutions. I have no personal interest in the U.S. other than as an occassional visitor and I have no illusions that the U.S. political system will reform their health care along the lines adopted in Europe. I think politics itself would need to be cleaned up first and the profit motive taken out of health care. And there is no chance of that happening.
As for those sourced deletions you referred to, if there are any you'd like me to consider again, I'd be glad to do so.-- Tom ( talk) 22:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The issue of screening for certain conditions has been discussed in this article in the "Usage of Term" section discussing Rudy Giulliani. The issue of population screening in the UK has come to the fore since the prime minister is supporting a proposal for the NHS to offer free medical screening. For those interested, the pros and cons of screening in Britain were also discussed in a radio program which can be heard by following this link which will be available for the next 6 days (You should click the +15 minutes button to get to the right section of the program.) The program discusses the PSA test for prostate cancer, the differences between UK and the US on general philosophy on screening in general, as well as the views of experts in the studio and a vox pop from phone-in callers). If any WP editor thinks that the topic of screening should be added to the article, please feel free to do so.... (I may not have the time to do so). I have a feeling that I have read a claim somewhere that socialized systems do not screen. This is actually not true. In the UK, doctors are encouraged to screen certain types of patients for certain conditions but blanket screening programs are relatively few (Breast cancer and cervical cancer screening are the obvious ones that spring to mind that are done)- -- Tom ( talk) 06:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Although the use by Giuliani of the discredited Manhattan Institute data is a very good example of the mis-use of data by opponents of socialized medicine, it does seem to me that the section is now rather long. I see that Gratzer has defended his use of the data and has been allowed to use an official organ of the Manhattan Institute to do so. Would it not be better to summarise the dispute here and put the detail in the article about the institute or the author? I think that those articles are quite short, whereas the current article is already quite long.-- Tom ( talk) 07:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I presume this is something along the lines that people say to themselves "I can hang the consequences of overeating/smoking/drinking/having unsafe sex/driving without a seat belt/playing with firearms because if I get ill or injured the government will pay my health care bill". Is there any evidence for this? It seems to be an extraordinary claim to make.-- Tom ( talk) 21:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Hauskalainen might have violated 3RR in this article (Diffs [7], [8], [9], [10]). WP:3RR recommends a self-revert. -- Doopdoop ( talk) 23:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Guilty as charged! Yes, I was already aware. But the matter was settled before you started challenging it. I'll take my chances. I have no intention of reverting. We have been down this route before umpteen times before so the issue is already settled. See the archive. One cannot in logic prove a negative but one can call for proof positive in the other direction. See the section preceeding this one. So far nobody has attempted to give proof positive that it is used in other countries. Hence I'll not revert it. Indeed I'm sticking to my guns. If you can prove that the Brits, the Spanish, and the Finns for example refer to their systems as socialized medicine I'll quit editing here. I'm so confident that you cannot do so that I'll stick by that challenge.-- Tom ( talk) 23:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
And just so there is no doubt, I have also accused Doopdoop of being a sockpuppet of Freedomwarrior and have several months ago accused Freedomwarrior of being a sockpuppet of Kborer. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doopdoop#DoopDoop.2FFreedomwarrior.2FKborer and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Socialized_medicine#KBORER_.2FFREEDOMWARRIOR_- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hauskalainen ( talk • contribs) 00:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
In response to BigK HeX in the section above, this article is about "socialized medicine" as the users of term define it and make claims about it. The history of the term, the current day usage and the claims made about the topic are all examined here in some detail. That material should not be merged into publicly-funded health care. That suggestion has already been made and there was no consensus for it. If you read publicly-funded health care you will find it is already quite ocomprehensive. But if you think that there is useful material here that should be in that article, by all means COPY it there. Do not MOVE it there if its contextualized here to the claims made about socialized medicine. It is perfectly right and proper to report the claims made about socialized medicine in the current article and report the factual information that supports those claims (and of course any contra information that may refute them if that is the case).-- Tom ( talk) 16:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Filmaker Michael Moore, promoting Sicko says it should be re-labelled as "Christianized medicine" because it is what Jesus would do.[73]
Cynics have countered that if it was relabelled as such then the US could not introduce it because it would then violate the rule of separation between Church and State.
Socialized medicine is not the same as publicly funded health care. It is a type of publicly funded health care. This article is, and I use the term lightly, about socialized medicine including its history, current implementations, and other encyclopedic information.
Kborer (
talk)
00:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
If there are any objections, kindly log them at Talk:Publicly-funded_health_care#Merge_proposals. Thanks, all. BigK HeX ( talk) 16:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I've withdrawn my merger proposal based on Kborer's assertion that the terms "Socialized medicine" and "Publicly-funded health care" are not synonymous. Feel free to discuss it further though. I am only withdrawing my support for it, but it may still be a valid dispute that others want hashed out. BigK HeX ( talk) 01:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The strict definition was a quote, directly referencing an impeccable source - please use talk page before removing.-- Gregalton ( talk) 15:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
We can both find citations for any of our respective points of view, so let's not play this game. You added that quote in such a way as to bias the reader of this article into thinking that the "stricter" definition is the more correct definition to use, and that the other definition is of minor relevance. I'm not going to allow that. Accordingly, I've gone ahead and modified the quote so that neither definition is given precedence over the other. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 17:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
It is correct that single payer is not socialized medicine. Is is also correct that socialized medicine is single payer. Single payer simply means that there is one main source of financing. In socialized medicine there is one main source of financing. Single payer is not a health care system, it is a method of financing a health care system. Kborer ( talk) 20:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Kborer- What's the difference between "systems where the government sets rules for private practices to provide treatment for re-imbursement by the state" and "single payer"?-- Tom ( talk) 02:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are some examples of people talking about socialized medicine.
Kborer ( talk) 20:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are some more:
corrected it a few times. [And] I personally believe that we should have it." The Rank-and-file Leader By Sidney Morris Peck
insurance... socialized medicine has worked well in Great Britain." Socialism for Survival By Allan H. Keith
and change in custom so rapidly that measures objected to 10 years ago are now realities, so it will be with socialized medicine; and we may predict now its successful and general application in the very near future." Proceedings of the Conference on Social Insurance
Kborer ( talk) 15:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The strict / narrow discussion should appear in the usage section, not in the introduction.
Kborer (
talk)
15:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The strict / narrow discussion is important and should be in the usage section, but not in the introduction. The introduction should allow the reader to understand what socialized medicine is in a clear and succinct way -- and that is all. Discussing, in the introduction, how the term is misused or even misusing it ourselves is inefficient and confusing. Kborer ( talk) 01:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree wholeheartledly with Gregalton on this. It is fundamental to understanding the term and the dual nature has to be in the opening paragraphs and not in a later section. I think the argument that is being used by Kborer is wholly unfounded. The definition should indeed be clear and distinct in the header but as the article stands now it does not become clear until you read the later section on usage. The usage section is not a place for a definition (albeit an ambivalent one). The difference in the two defintions was quite concisely explained previously. There are many WP articles with much longer intros.
I too am annoyed that we have asked that this be discussed here and the reversion has been made 3 times with hardly a whiff of an attempt to achieve common ground or even an understanding of the motive for the change. I am going to ask Kborer to revert it back. If not, I will do it myself tomorrow.-- Tom ( talk) 01:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25521 http://www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_m_06zPzhtm Ezekiel J. Emanuel, Director of the Clinical Bioethics Department at NIH also notes "“ ‘socialized medicine’ is when the doctors are state employees; when the hospitals, drugstores, home health agencies and other facilities are owned and controlled by the government…” ( http://www.healthbeatblog.org/2007/10/the-real-danger.html) http://www.joepaduda.com/archives/001037.html Again, I don't mean to offend, but a 'popular' definition is not necessarily a correct one. This is the point we are trying to make, the popular definition is used intentionally used to obsfuscate the difference between socialized medicine and single payer. Especially by organizations like NCPA. Is socialized medicine single payer? yes. Is single payer socialized medicine? It doesn't have to be. JSteuernagle ( talk) 06:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the map from the article because it refers specifically to UHC countries, which s not the same thing. It would be nice to have a map of countries which have socialized medicine according to the two definitions bit it would have to colour the countries with different shades to show the degree to which the first or the second defintions apply. I doubt that anyone has researched this in enough depth for us to pblish such a map.-- Tom ( talk) 14:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This POV version is absurd. "Socialized medicine is any health care system that embodies the fundamental principle of socialism"? Puh-lease. This is tendentious nonsense and is not worth responding to.-- Gregalton ( talk) 17:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I really feel as though we must do something about the persistent POV pushing by editors such as Kborer, Freedomwarrior (if indeed they are two editors). They clearly have an agenda to use Wikipedia to present a one sided story and use it as a feed to deliver readers to certain brand of web sites that tell a one-sided story on this topic. I am not sure however what can be done to prevent their antics other than constant vigilance of the kind we have been engaging in.-- Tom ( talk) 19:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I think all the discussions on the concept of publicly-funded health care should go to the proper article. Socialized medicine should just be an article on linguistics, since that is just an expression to frame the debate on publicly-funded health care to a particular pov. -- SummerWithMorons ( talk) 14:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
If you proceed to remove more citations and sources (that you requested), I'll simply wait until you've finished your destructo-fest and revert the entire thing.-- Gregalton ( talk) 18:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry Gregalton, perhaps I missed something. What sources and citations am I removing? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
With single payer health insurance the government does not have the majority of control over delivery of health care, ergo it is not socialized medicine. Kborer ( talk) 19:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
But Canada's system is single payer and it IS labeled in the US by users of the broad definition as a socialized system. So your analysis is plain wrong. -- Tom ( talk) 20:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom:
National health insurance does not include heavy regulation of delivery by definition. Kborer ( talk) 22:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The issue is there are multiple definitions and some people will include Canada under this label and others do not. It is inconsistent to say that payment to private practices for agreed services is not single payer when it fits one of the definitions and is actually used by some people that way. That's why the article heading was right that it explained the relationship to Single payer that way.
Kborer said above "There is no contradiction in categorizing publicly financed and regulated private medical services as socialized medicine and not categorizing national health insurance as socialized medicine" and "National health insurance does not include heavy regulation of delivery by definition" But that's not the issue. We are talking about single payer. The issue was you have stated quite plainly that payment by the government to private health care providers is not the same as single payer. Clearly it is the same. Answer the point. I have raised it THREE TIMES now and you have failed to answer it. -- Tom ( talk) 22:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
There is only one correct definition of socialized medicine. Single payer health insurance is not included in that definition. Kborer ( talk) 00:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
FOUR TIMES now. How can all those 'respected' think tanks and policy institutes such as Cato, CPA and the Manhattan Institute say that Canada's single payer system is socialized medicine??? It may not agree with your definition or that of Gregalton or perhaps even mine but even The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal have talked about socialized medicine in the context of Canada's single payer system. Answer the question! They are just wrong and you are right??--[[-- Tom ( talk) 00:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)User:Hauskalainen|Tom]] ( talk) 00:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
KBORER: Why has Cato blabbing on about regulation in the Free Market got anything to do with Socialized medicine? I know it uses the term but it is just another use unrelated to the 2 main definitions. Why have you placed it at the top of the article? If it belongs anywhere (add I have doubts that it does) it would be in usage. DO YOU HAVE A CONNECTION WITH CATO BY ANY CHANCE? (OR the Center for Policy Analysis?) -- Tom ( talk) 02:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
It clarifies something important about the definition of socialized medicine: "How can America's health care system be socialized when we rely on the private sector more than any advanced nation? Because it doesn't matter whether the dollars and the hospitals are owned publicly or privately. What matters is who controls how they are used." Kborer ( talk) 05:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
There is nothing nonsensical about it. The article says that if the government is deciding how public money is spent on an individual's health care, then that control constitutes socialized medicine. It is the same as saying that socialized medicine is when the government controls and finances health care. This view agrees with the majority of definitions that have been referenced. It does not mean that Canada necessarily has socialized medicine. Kborer ( talk) 16:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
You are avoiding the issue. Your claim was that payment by government for private delivery of care is NOT the same as single payer. It absolutely is the same. And there is no dividing line between the term socialized medicine and single payer if you read Cato, Gratzer, etc..-- Tom ( talk) 17:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to explain some of my recent edits. My main focus was to improve the presentation of the article, though some content needed to be removed as well, such as useless references, unsourced statements, and excessive discussion of certain topics. As I mentioned before, the introduction must be succinct. Quotes, detailed discussions of minor points, and secondary points of information that are not essential to the definition need to be moved out of the introduction and into separate sections. Sections need to contain the information surrounding one topic, not a dialog discussing the pros and cons of socialized medicine or other such nonsense. Also some urls were longer than the page width so they had to be encapsulated in cite web templates. Kborer ( talk) 14:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
One editor's clean up could mean wrecking another's edits. I want that we make only small changes to the article as and when necessary. If a re-write with a lot of changes are necessaey then then lets discuss them here first. It saves a lot of hassle. Clearly we have some strong headed editors here but it should be possible to find some consensus. If not them we may have to find ways of settling them by seeking the views of others.-- Tom ( talk) 16:43, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the clean-up banner. The article is very well referenced and as far as I can tell tries to tell as much as it possible to say about the subject representing both sides of the political argument (given that this is very much a political term, rather than a medical one). It conveys the political objections to socialized medicine and examines the claims using factual data. I am not sure what else can be done. Therefore I am inclined to remove the clean-up banner. It has stood in place for a month now and I have not seen much positive change in that time. It might have helped if the person that placed the banner had put an explanation note on the clean-up page request page at Wikipedia:Cleanup or on this talk page. -- Tom ( talk) 13:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Tom that Kborer, Freedomwarrior, and Doopdoop appear to be sockpuppets of each other. They all three have the same editing patterns and no respect for consensus. -- Historian 1000 ( talk) 07:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
What I don't understand is why legitimate editors even try to engage these disruptive editors/trolls/sock puppets in discussion. Doopdoop has been removing See also wikilinks I put up to the Kaiser Family Foundation. This is a nonprofit organization that is regularly cited by health care professionals, politicians, and the media. As a result of my reverting him (he engaged in counter reverts) he stalked me over to an article that I regularly edit, List of haunted locations (I study and write on folklore). Doopdoop's edits are often a nuisance and he obviously thrives on the attention he receives with his disruptive POV edits. I see no reason whatsoever to continue to engage this editor in discussion, other than to issue him warnings about his malcontent behavior so it is documented. -- Historian 1000 ( talk) 02:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Socialized medicine or state medicine is a term used primarily in the United States to describe various types of publicly funded health care systems.
has been replaced with
Socialized medicine or state medicine is a health care system that is controlled and financed by the government.
Lets take the 3 various elements in turn.
1. Is it the "proper" name for something or is it "a term for something else"?
It clearly is not the proper name because it tends to be used by one set of people (mostly those who try to swing opinion against the concept) and is studiously avoided by others (neutrally minded people and professionals, as witnessed that most medical journals reporting research do not use it). It is not just one person who avoids using it and not just me claiming it. Uwe Reinhardt says its a term to be avoided also, and if you go back and check the record of discussions here you will see Nbauman made the point about professional and scientific journals. Its mainly the nay-sayers and certain politicians that use the term.
Therefore it must have a proper name, and that name is either "publicly funded medicine" or just "public medicine". Therefore it is a term that is used to describe something else. Hauskalainen ( talk contribs) 21:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
2. Is a term used primarly in The United States or is it widely used in other countries?
I think this is not in dispute. I am sure you may find bloggers claiming to be in Australia or England but they are not valid sources. I am 52 years old and until recently I had never heard public medicine labeled this way, and if you read the archived talk page you will see many people from outside the US have been similarly surprised by it. Is it important to state this up front? I would argue yes because it is definitively so. It is not normal usage outside the US. Hauskalainen ( talk contribs) 21:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
3. Is
health care systems the best link to have in the first sentence or
publicly funded health care?
I think know why these two (?) editors are favouring the first rather than the second link. But I will let them say why for themselves before I give my opinion on that. To me, the latter is the more natural because both the narrow and the broad definitions are encompassed within it. -- Tom ( talk) 01:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC) .
The problem with your faulty line of argument is that there wouldn't be a claim regarding the usage of the term in other countries if the current statement on the term socialized medicine being used "particularly in the US" were deleted. That is, the article wouldn't be saying that "the Aztecs did NOT land a man on the moon in the 14th century with the aid of an alien culture," because it wouldn't contain a reference to that claim. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 07:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Tom, if the article is silent on an unsubstantiated claim, then nothing will be lost (because the claim shouldn't be there to begin with). I have not deleted the claim, and I won't as long as their is some substance to it (and there might be--I'm agnostic on the point). If you assert the claim as a fact, then you should be able to find a reputable article that substantiates that claim. Honestly, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to go to one of your socialist blogs and pull something from there. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 00:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to remind editors that is it not sufficient to simply have references for claims made in an article. The references must correspond to and support the claims that they are associated with. The reason that I point this out is that this article has been reverted several times to a version where claims are not only unsupported by sources, but references that had been used to support the opposing viewpoint in early versions were left in the text, giving the appearance that they supported the new claims. Obviously, such carelessness is completely unacceptable. Kborer ( talk) 23:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Socialized medicine is not a single implementation of a health care system. Any system that meets certain criteria is socialized medicine. So the idea that it describes different implementations is correct, because if various implementations all have centralized control, then they are all socialized medicine regardless of how that control is maintained. Kborer ( talk) 06:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I know ad hominem is easy, but it is not very productive. In any case, this is probably confusion between single payer and single payer health insurance. Single payer just means that funds are coming from one place, such as a government. Single payer health insurance is a national health insurance plan, such as those proposed by PNHP. Socialized medicine is not health insurance, but it is single payer. Kborer ( talk) 06:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
A question...now that Giuliani is out of the race, the lengthy section about his ill-advised remarks seems less notable and an example of recentism. I think the section can stand, but should be much shorter. No doubt the term may come up again in other campaign discourse. Any objection to some judicious pruning? -- -- Sfmammamia ( talk) 01:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2008/02.21/08-socialized.html
MaynardClark (
talk)
22:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)MaynardClark
FreedomWarrior: You have deleted this statement about socialized medicine.
Now I know that you will probably say Cuba is a dictorship and not a democracy, but the fact is that most of the nations that have socialized medicine are democracies and not dictatorships. So what is so objectionable about this statement? It sums up socialized medicine rather succinctly. -- Tom ( talk) 14:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I have removed it because it is another one of your gross generalizations. As you seem to recognize, not all countries with socialized medicine are democracies. Only "most of the nations that have socialized medicine are democracies and not dictatorships." As such, it is inappropriate to include the statement that the "population through its elected government..." because not all populations have chosen to "insure itself against the incursion of health care" through their government. That is why I have changed the text to: "the government sets the framework for determining how the health care system delivers treatments to patients." This is a more inclusive text which applies to both democracies and dictatorships with socialized medicine. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 16:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm.. Who's feeding the trolls now?-- Tom ( talk) 22:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I for once think Kborer may be on to something. He says "Socialized medicine is not insurance against unpredictable illness but rather a system of delivering most of a population's health care needs". I don't really find anything wrong with that, if you assume that insurance is something that begins after birth. Perhaps we can adopt is as definition :=) Insurance in the sense that Kborer uses it in health matters does not really meet what most people would think is a civilized response to person misfortune. If a person is born with sickle cell anemia his insurance is going to be sky high. But its not his or her fault that he has this disease, so why should his/her parents and ultimately he or she or pay for that? And as we discover more about the connection between genetics and disease susceptibility the insurance sector in those countries such as the US where health insurance is discriminatory, this issue will cover more and more people. Nobody in their right mind wants to be ill, and if we are, then we want to be cured or at least have our symptoms mitigated and if we cannot work because of that disease, then we should not be penalised for it. In a socialized system, society collectively ensures that this is the case. It IS a form of insurance if one can think that it is a conception to death matter with premiums based on wealth rather than health risk status. But I sense that some people here cannot think like that. It is something that normal commercial insurance cannot do. Maybe we should add this to the benefits section.... -- Tom ( talk) 23:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
If I can contend that the Aztecs landed on the moon before Neil Armstrong did, can you disprove that? Of course not! Its impossible to prove a negative. But you could challenge me to provide proof positive that they did. So neither is it possible to prove that the the term socialized medicine is NOT used outside the US. But you could prove the other editors here that we are wrong by demonstrating that official bodies (governments perhaps) or academics DO use the term in countries outside the US. Until you do I think it perfectly reasonable to suppose what I sense to be reality, i.e. that the term was invented in the U.S. and is not generly adopted outside the U.S.-- Tom ( talk) 23:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The point about "usage in the US" here seems valid. Even if the term is used in other countries, it does not carry the connotation that it does in the US. Also, it looks like the assertion is backed with citations, so the argument seems to be notable, and verifiable. In my opinion, ignoring the debate would seem to be the act that would violate NPOV. BigK HeX ( talk)
OK. Let's compare the reverts at
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Socialized_medicine&diff=191015977&oldid=191014712
According to WP policies the first sentence is a simple explanation of the article subject and the intital paragraphs are a heads up for what is to come later in the article. My version does that better than yours and does not attempt to mislead in the way your does.-- Tom ( talk) 00:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
An answer:
-- Doopdoop ( talk) 01:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Multiple sources with multiple definitions. They can't all be right. Marxist professors of literature and cuban immigrants are not the norm. Yes, a Labour govt did introduce it in the UK, but the conservative Churchill government that followed did not dismantle it. Nor Eden, Macmillan, Douglas-Home, Heath, Thatcher, or Major. But even so it still does not meet the standard definition of socialism. Finns do not regard their health care system as being socialism and neither do the Brits. Socialism has not always been a happy term in Spain either but the people of Spain have adopted such a system with great ease. And as for unsourced, I told you that the Guiliani usage during the election is a very recent example, tagging it socialist and not American. The references are further down.
I am now going to revert your change a second time today. You do not have consensus for this. If you revert it once more I will make a formal complaint.-- Tom ( talk) 01:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Doopdoop's version is better. One important reason is that the referenced definitions do not say that socialized medicine is just a 'term' or synonym for something. Rather, they say that it is a system. Kborer ( talk) 01:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
We don't have to provide a source to remove a normative claim (i.e. to keep this article silent on whether there is or isn't significant use of the term inside or outside the US), because that's now how the rules work. Notwithstanding, since you finally provided some sources which reflect that opinion, I have modified the text to reflect that it is an opinion shared by some editors. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 18:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
No, but its not unreasonable to ask you to disprove the point. That you have still refused to do so tells me that you are wrong in your implied position that this is a term used in the wider English speaking world. So irrespective of WP rules I will support the addition of a reference to this in the lead.-- Tom ( talk) 10:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Socialized medicine is a system of health care, not just a term that people apply to health care systems that they do not like. This is what the references supporting the opening sentence say. It makes no sense to use them to support the opposing viewpoint. Please do not remove the supported definition nor reinstate the claim that it is a term without major justification, including references. Kborer ( talk) 01:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I've protected the article due to edit warring from multiple editors. Please consider resolving your disputes here instead of engaging in edit wars. -- slakr\ talk / 00:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
BigK HeX wins. As far as the proposal to get rid of all the content in the article and replace it with a biased stub telling people not to use the dirty words 'socialized medicine', I dissent. Kborer ( talk) 15:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Gregalton, the sources in question reflect nothing more than the opinions of various individuals or groups. There are no objective (i.e. empirical) grounds for asserting that "the term is primarily used in the United States to refer to certain kinds of publicly-funded health care." Any such claim, in the absence of evidence, is idle conjecture on the part of those individuals and using them to make that claim in a matter of fact fashion is POV pushing. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 19:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
"Clearly" reliable on what basis? How is the bias attributed to them without substance? And why is it not idle conjecture? And what is a "neutral" approach? Freedomwarrior ( talk) 21:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
The dark side of socialized medicine concerns the larger population pools of possible surveillance that affects ill and injured individuals -- possibly the same horde(s) or special interest groups, brandishing licences or college degrees, who caused the physical disorders. The question becomes less of 'insurance' as a way to continue time alloted for healing than what 'insulation' must be ramped up or increased under the watchful eyes of government, private/public health practitioners and all those program hangers-on hoping to write up a medical journal article or improve their own professional career standings. Especially counter-effective in terms of medical science or healing are those who are contacted by syndicate networks and agree to directly 'encounter' a 'patient' in various social settings, most commonly stores where friction is always a possibility anyway, and is an especial hazard under direct surveillance. Marcia L. Neil/beadtot 66.239.212.82 ( talk) 02:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Kborer ( talk) 19:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You also removed the more precise explanation of "is a term for a system.." to "..is a system". You also made sweeping changes that were not always explained. You made numerous inter-threaded changes that could not easily be undone, mixing controversial and less objectional changes. You made changes in spite of them having been objected to and reverted by Gregalton and myself. You added back "It can refer to any system of medical care that is largely both publicly financed and government administered or regulated" but we know that the VA system is not tagged in this way. You also introduced a Cato article which talked about control in the context of regulation. We had a long debate about this earlier. Control in the main definition refers either to management of the system or controls regarding rules for payment. I know Cato has used the epithet socialized in this context but I do not think use by one (polarized) user of the term enables us to stretch the definition of socialized medicine to cover general regulation of free market care which is not subsidized by the government. Though I suspect FreedomWarrior will say it does. You seem to be getting ever close to the view of this 'other' editor,
If you think the article header needs a major re-write please say so here and why. It will save a lot of time if we discuss changes here first-- Tom ( talk) 20:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC).-- Tom ( talk) 20:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Tom:
Please present the sources you mentioned above. In any case, the basic question here is: does the government need to directly employ health care workers and own health care facilities to constitute socialized medicine? From what I have seen, the answer is no. Socialism means centralized control, and there are other ways to centrally control the health care system besides owning facilities and employing workers. For example, the American Heritage dictionary says that regulating the industry is sufficient. This makes sense because if the government puts enough regulations on the industry, by telling doctors how to do their jobs and perhaps how much they are going to be paid, then they are effectively the employer. That's what Rockwell and the Columbia Encyclopedia are talking about. That's why Dorland's Medical Dictionary specifically says "controlled by the government". That's why some people look at a health care system that is nominally national health insurance and call it socialized medicine. If it is centrally controlled, it is a socialist system. Kborer ( talk) 04:51, 24 February 2008 (UTC)