![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Earlier discussions:
I'm fine with perhaps linking to criticisms on another page. I'm not fine with AndyL trying to silence criicisms (see the section below on Criticism and AndyL's shameful edits--my apologies to AndyL if this was a typo). I'm also not fine with implying that most objections to Socialism are just over its economics. Here are a few political and philosophical criticisms off the top of my head:
Because Socialism in the broadest of senses does not define a political structure, there can be no criticisms against this (non-existent) political structure. However, many practices in Socialist countries are routinely criticized. Any deviation from democracy is criticized, and many socialist countries have instituted limits on personal freedoms such as immigration and emigration; ownership of private property (versus ownership by the state); and civil liberties (versus state decisions for the good of all people). So states that are authoritarian "dictatorships of the proletariat" that do not provide social services to non-citizens, prevent citizens from leaving the country, confiscate or outlaw private property, and execute "counter-revolutionaries" are criticized, though such a state may not be considered as Socialist by other Socialists. A counter to these criticisms is that these limitations are often duplicated in Capitalist countries (even if to lesser degree). For example, the US restricts immigration and does not allow prisoners to emigrate; does not allow business monopolies or personal ownership of nuclear weapons and enforces eminent domain (legalized theft of private property for public use); and America's celebrated "Free Speech" does not allow incendiary speech or bomb threats and it does not even prevent your employer from firing you for something said, even if you say it after hours.
The scientific community at large does not recognize Socialism as scientific--that is, scientists don't find Socialist theories even worthy of criticism--but on occasion, philosophers of science make fun of it. I'll quote Lakatos in "Lecture One: The Demarcation Problem" from "For and Against Method": I remember back in my Popperian days I used to put this question to Marxists and Freudians: "Tell me, what specific historical or social events would have to occur in order for you to give up your Marxism?" I remember this was usually accompanied by either stunned silence or confusion. But I was very pleased with the effect (p. 26). The Freudian theories and Marxism also appear to have something which Einstein's theory of quantum electrodynamics lacks. If you happen to meet someone who works in these latter fields, you usually find you are facing a person subject to frequent headaches brought on by the number of problems he has to solve, someone who has many doubts about the whole theory, who doesn't really know if he is coming or going, who sees puzzles everywhere. Now consider a Freudian of Marxist: he lives in a state of happiness, he can explain everything, and enjoys that happy, relaxed state of mind called `understanding'. If you go to a theoretical physicist, he usually says: "I do not understand what is going on in the universe, but I have some theories and occasionally my experiments work; but I still do not understand what God meant with this chaos." Approach a Freudian or a Marxist, on the other hand, and everything falls into place (p. 27). There is a fantastic quote regarding Historical Myths in Lecture 3: "when you have utopian standards ... you end up in lies" (p. 47). A counter to this teasing is that Socialism is not scientific or that Lakatos is a counter-revolutionary and as such must be executed by the state.
Given any area where Socialism differs from "western" society (Britain, U.S., Australia, Japan, etc.) and there will be criticism. The article only noted economic criticism because Socialism was defined purely economically. It is dishonest to pretend that only the economists dislike Socialism. - James
The link between socialism and nationalism should be explicity acknowledged, even though the connection is not a logical necessity, but rather mediated through human nature. For instance socialist proposals in the United States when implemented have tended to increase resentment against immigration and immigrants. The US does not have the luxury the buffer of distance from the third world. Immigration gets criminalized, and the now illegal immigrants are considered a burden upon the welfare state. Implementing socialism on a national scale does not advance socialisms goals internatinoally, because it can be argued that the poor of the world benefit more from emmigation to the US than they would from the implementation of socialism within the US. A socialize medicine that resulted kidney transplants for the previously uninsured in the US, is a misallocation of resources when internationally hundreds of lives could be saved with the same commitment of resources as represented in dollar terms.-- Silverback 10:31, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let me point out that Mihnea is wrong :)
Sam [
Spade] 11:28, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[sarcasm] Wow! Such an amazing argument, Sam! I can't think how to reply to that one! [/sarcasm] ;) -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:46, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In summary, I think its very important to separate socialist propoganda and doctrine from what is actually practiced. Sam [ Spade] 12:27, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yeah let's leave the fringe analysis of socialism on the fringe. Silverback has not even presented a case, just wild assertions. I can't think of a single socialist measure or proposal that singles out immigrants from receiving products or services. In the so-called communist block, it is relatively easy to emmigrate there. Significant numbers of Thai people move to Vietnam. People from all over Latin America go to Cuba, even if just for a few weeks, to receive medical treatments which they administer to anyone for free or for a small nominal charge.
Within countries that are capitalist that call themselves democracies, "socialistic" measures sometimes are introduced and implemented. Does this lead to Nationalism? No, for at least two reasons. Socialistic measures aren't socialism. This isn't a page about welfare reform or public sector service opportunities. It is a page about Socialism. Also, whatever the right wing of a nation, or its nationalists, want to legislate against immigrants or "outsiders" or whatever, is the work of the nationalists and not the socialists. The socialists policy is "open borders". This can be found on any socialist party's website.
Internationalism is a major aspect of most all socialisms. Silverback cites no examples or facts but rather appeals to a certain variety of "common sense" gleaned from life in "middle America".
If any such "socialism leads to nationalism" polemic is going to appear in any form on this page, it had better be cited from primary sources which meet academic criteria and not original research.
See wiki policy!! If there is one or two professors of the Libertarian school, likely from the U.S, who have published books on the matter of "socialism leads to nationalism", CITE those sources and then be prepared to be told that it is a wildly minority opinion and will thus be given such weight. In other words, if this is something from the Ayn Rand Institute, or the Von Mises Group, say so, and we know that this is the POV of Von Mises or Rand, or someone of note.
Unfortunately, or fortunately rather, this page cannot be "Silverback proves Socialism leads to Nationalism through Logical deduction because of His theory on Human Nature". -- Capone 18:50, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
For the record, this mess is now listed at Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Most of the statements"? There is only one statement that I keep reverting, and that is your absurd, ridiculous and blatantly POV claim that all socialism other than the "anarcho-" or "libertarian" versions is nationalistic. You are oblivious to reason, and any arguments I throw at you seem to be hitting an impenetrable wall. Go back to review the previous section of this talk page, and you will notice that I have answered and demolished your points - and quite long ago, I might add. Furthermore, you don't seem to grasp the fact that any statement of yours which is not shared or supported by anyone worthy of being mentioned in an encyclopedia article is, by definition, POV. If you wish, we can add to the article the following statement: " User:Silverback believes that all socialism other than the "anarcho-" or "libertarian" versions is nationalistic." That would be a fact. And it would stand up for about 2 seconds before someone rightfully removed it. If you want your opinion posted here, come back when you're a world-famous political analyst. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:48, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
are both places for resolving problems, after the talk pages of the articles and editors involved have failed to achieve the needed results.
Please review , Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot, Wikipedia:Wikiquette and Wikipedia:Truce as needed. Cheers, Sam [ Spade] 16:54, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
From the above it seems clear you are confusing "nationalist socialists" with "state socialists". Nationalism and statism are not the same thing ie the nation and the state are not synonymous. AndyL 18:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Nation is an ethnic/cultural concept. State refers to the governmental apparatus of a specific country. "State socialists" believe that socialism can be achieved by putting sectors of the economy under state control. They make the assumption that "the state" is synonymous with the people and that democratic control over the economy (or workers control) can be achieved through expanding the state sector both through state owned enterprises, state regulation of economic relations and state administered taxation and redistribution of wealth. Other socialists argue that for true socialism one needs the state to whither away and for the economy and society to be run directly by the working class without the state as an intermediary. "Nationalist socialists", if there is such a thing, would be chavinistic and believe in the superiority of their "nation" over other nations. They also may be more concerned with the well being of their particular nation than of all of humanity or of all the citizens of a particular state. A nationalist would not necessarily want the state to have more power in society, they simply are interested in the well being of their group. Indeed, because nationalists are more concerned about their nation and are not concerned about class it is doubtful that one can be both a nationalist and a socialist. AndyL 19:32, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have to say, silverback is right on the $, as usual. Socialists restrict people with overbearing regulations, even on simple things like leaving the country! I don't know if Mihnea knows anyone who has lived in, or been to a socialist country, but its not all sunshine and roses. Scandanavia may be nice to visit, but they have a very sluggish economy, and an extremely high suicide rate. Besides, their democratic. When you look at non-democratic socialist countries... lets just say China is probably the best (due to being the most capitalistic), and I hope you know at least a little about the downsides of china... Can you imagine someone immigrating to N Korea? Thats communism for ya! Sam [ Spade] 01:18, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sam, I thought you were a psych major? Certainly you know the link between lack of sunshine and suicide rates. Also, last time I checked, Scandanavian countries don't have any particular rules barring anyone from leaving. As for immigration restrictions are you familiar with Switzerland? Both you and Silverback are engaging in broad generalizations, as per usual. Also, I don't find the US particularly open to Mexican immigrants, does that mean the US is socialist? AndyL 02:28, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is no correlation between immigration restrictions and "statism". Most countries in the world, "statist" or not, have very restrictive rules in regards to immigration. Changes in immigration policy have little to do with "statism" and everything to do with the needs of the domestic economy for surplus labour. AndyL 02:28, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Silverback, have you ever heard of the European Union? If you did you might know that a) border controls are consistent throughout the EU and that b) EU citizens can travel and move freely within the EU regardless of whether, say, they are moving from Italy to Sweden or from Sweden to Spain.
Secondly, are you aware that it's almost impossible to get Swiss citizenship? Migrant workers can live in Switzerland for years, their children can be born their and still not be eligible for Swiss citizenship. Switzerland is one of the most capitalist countries in the world. Similarly, it's very difficult to get Kuwaiti citizenship (ask the workers from the Phillipines who work there).
Please stop speaking out of ignorance. AndyL 16:14, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Chinese and Cubans flow quite freely in and out of their respective countries. It is in the United States where Cubans are not given entrance visas. Capone 69.107.251.230 05:24, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Cuba and the US negotiated the Cuban Adjustment Act a few years ago under which the United States was required to issue 20,000 visas to Cubans annually. However, the Bush administration has refused to comply with the act issuing only 505 visas to Cubans in the first six months of 2003 and has dragged its feet since. The problem with Cuban emigration is not that Cuba isn't letting people leave, it's that the US isn't letting people in. I know that doesn't fit into your ideologically blinkered world view but it is a fact.
Have you ever heard of the INS Silverback? AndyL 16:14, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Silverback, have you ever heard of the European Union? If you did you might know that a) border controls are consistent throughout the EU and that b) EU citizens can travel and move freely within the EU regardless of whether, say, they are moving from Italy to Sweden or from Sweden to Spain.
My understanding is that a citizen of an EU country resident in any EU country must be treated in the same way as a citizen of the country he or she is living in ie Sweden must treat citizens of the UK living in Sweden the same way they treat their own citizens. In any case, you seem to be conceding a point I made above in that Sweden's immigration restrictions aren't a result of "statism" but a result of the fact that Sweden is a desirable destination for immigrants ie high demand. Sweden, btw, has no emigration restrictions. AndyL 17:29, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I was referring to immigration from non-EU countries. Sweden is a highly desirable destination for immigrants from, say, North Africa, because it has a high standard of living. AndyL 18:40, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Silverback, what you describe is the case throughout Europe (and indeed throughout most of the industrialised world) regardless of whether or not the country is "socialist". The situation is the same in Ireland, for instance, and as I keep saying, Switzerland. As for the EU rules you describe the 3 month rule etc (which I had not known about, apparently while the EU is quite advanced in allowing citizens to live in each others countries it has not yet reached the stage I had thought it had) applies throughout the EU, not just in Sweden, regardless of whether or not the country is "socialist".
There are a lot of blondes in Sweden. By your logic, blondeness, therefore, must be a feature of socialism.
And again, immigration policies are not simply a product of nationalism, they are as I keep saying also a matter of economics and demand ie countries for which have high standards of living and are popular destinations for immigrants tend to have stricter immigration controls than countries that are not popular destinations and have low standards of living - the critical factor in determining immigration policy is whether the domestic economy is in need of more workers. The US has rather strict immigration policies (the INS, you've heard of it?) is this a product of American nationalism or the fact that a lot of people wish to move to the US? Canada, which arguably is more "socialist" than the US, allows more immigrants per capita each year than the US (both countries, I believe, accept about 200,000 each year despite the fact that the US has ten times Canada's population). How do you explain that if you correlate immigration controls with "socialism"? AndyL 20:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Silverback, consider the fact that correlation is not causation. Just because something exists in Sweden does not mean that thing is a product of socialism, particularly when that same thing exists in numerous other countries regardless of their economic or political system. AndyL 20:16, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
And what does that have to do with nationalism? You seem to have a very vague idea of what nationalism is given that your "analysis" could hold true for any industrialised country. In fact in Sweden as in other European countries it is the (anti-socialist) right wing that is most anti-immigration while the socialist left is most sympathetic to the rights of immigrants and refugees. If your correlation of "socialism" with anti-immigration sentiment was true then the opposite would be the case. As for your impression of Switzerland I think you've seen too many Heidi movies. Switzerland is actually highly urbanised. In fact, throughout Europe, "nationalism" is the domain of the most right wing parties. AndyL 02:49, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
So then are we to assume that it is the anti-socialists we should be primarily concerned with when looking at the reasons behind nationalism? Capone 69.111.18.60 09:18, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is what happens when one compares existing examples of societies which have been erroneously labeled in American schools and media vs. ideal societies we dream about after reading Ayn Rand or Von Mises. Socialism cannot be imposed upon a state; a state that is socialist, according to the Marxist, Leninist, and Trotskyist senses of the word, is an oxymoron. Socialism, Communism, to them is international and stateless. What the socialist imagines communism to be is analogous to what the libertarian imagines capitalism to be. Capone 69.111.18.60 09:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You know, I really don't think you have a clue what nationalism is. No wonder you think this article doesn't pay attention to the "nationalist" aspects of socialism, in your view nationalism is a form of socialism!
So the antithesis of socialism is still, in your mind a form, of socialism and what will the anti socialist right do in non-socialist states, the exact same thing? But somehow this is still socialist? What a strange world you live in where both socialism and "anti-socialism" are socialist. Silverback, perhaps you should just go somewhere and argue with yourself. It's clear you have nothing to contribute to this article. Your concept of socialism is a straw man, it has nothing to do with reality. AndyL 12:28, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This discussion is completely bizarre. Silverback seems to have no clue what either socialism or nationalism is about, especially nationalism. Why don't you read a book on nationalism and get back to us? I recommend Eric Hobsbawm's Nations and Nationalism in Europe since 1780 or Ernest Gellner's Nations and Nationalism. Anderson's Imagined Communities is famous, but not all that good. There's also numerous, numerous books by Anthony Smith that all say the same thing. By the way, the Nationalism article is dreadful. Until just now, it listed Smith, Anderson, and Gellner as famous nationalists! john k 04:13, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I wouldn't say "severely impolite", I didn't question the legitimacy of Silverback's birth after all. It's just clear he really doesn't know what he's talking about and while it might be fun to debate him in a chat room it's pretty much a waste of time here. Thing is wikipedia is not some sort of debate forum, it's not free republic or che lives, it's an encyclopedia and these pointless ideological debates are complete wastes of time and counterproductive distractions, especially when a participant, as Silverback admits, is ignorant about what it is he or she is talking about. Editors should write in areas they are expert or scholars in, not areas where they profess ignorance. To do the latter is pure self-indulgence and just a waste of everyone else's time. To say so is not "impolite" it's just cutting to the chase. AndyL 22:32, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Capone 00:17, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Um no, I called you ignorant because you don't seem to know anything about socialism or nationalism and because you're engaging in nonsensical arguments. Arguing that socialism is nationalistic because anti-socialists in Sweden are nationalistic defies logic. The point is, however, that our purpose here is not to have a debating forum but to write and edit. If you want to engage in original research and put forward your own personal arguments this isn't the place to do it. I'm sure Sam can refer you to the Wiki rules against original research. AndyL 21:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is original research unless you can point me to studies that draw the conclusion that there is a correlation between socialism in Sweden and xenophobic attitudes. AndyL 05:42, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In other words the answer is no, there are no studies that make those conclusions. Then your argument is completely immaterial to this article. AndyL 06:48, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Excellent, it seems you are writing an article on the (POV) Philosophy of Von Mises, Hayek, and Dick Army. What does this have to do with an NPOV article on socialism? Considering that the libertarian world view considers nearly any government activity at all as "socialism", I don't think that this is helpfull to the article. I still can't make heads or tails of this "social net" = "nationalism". It seems that the fact that the United States has the highest rate of immigration but also has the smallest welfare state (excluding corporate welfare and the military industrial complex) per capita among the industrialized countries would force us to examine that proposition again. It would seem that any industrialized nation where there were jobs and opportunity would be a desirable destination for an immigrant. The argument, then becomes, that nations should either cease being nations or they should cease being desirable by ruining their own economy or political system. Most socialists agree that nation states should be done away with as soon as physically possible. One cannot possibly claim that socialism is inherently nationalistic while simultaneously calling for a one world government, can they? Capone 68.123.238.128 22:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(sigh) a one world nation is a contradiction in terms. Now I'm convinced you don't know what you're talking about. AndyL 04:18, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You confuse the term state with nation (as many Americans do) hence your confusion of statism and state socialism with nationalism (discussed earlier).. AndyL 05:16, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I suggest you review M:Foundation issues and get back to the article. Sam [ Spade] 23:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes and? I see nothing there that encourages editors to edit in areas in which they profess ignorance. AndyL 23:23, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'll try to follow your example. AndyL 04:29, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sam, editing as an IP (ie not registering) is not the same as editing in an area with which you are not familiar. And in any case, Silverback is a registered user so I don't know what your point is AndyL 15:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
without registering. You're parsing a sentence to make it mean something it doesn't. AndyL 21:18, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Parsing quotations is intellectually dishonest. I hope you know enough not to do that in your writing and editing. AndyL 21:21, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"No, I am trying to make the obvious more obvious" No, you're changing the meaning of a sentence by removing what it is that's being referred to (whether IP-only editors have the same rights as registered editors).
The article would be going better if people with ideological axes to grind didn't keep trying to insert side arguments like "nazism is socialism" or "socialism is nationalistic". AndyL 21:27, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why was most of the information from the criticism section removed? TDC 17:48, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
You may want to see the archives. I am unaware of any mass amounts of criticism being removed. Capone 00:05, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Most arguments made by the anonymous user were totally within NPOV, ie. "they said..." and "according to...". I see someone really got angry over them, but lots of good work including my contributions were deleted right back - could people, even when they see what they view themselves as messy and POV stuff, please lay back, check the edits and try to NPOV them without reverting 8 long edits? Could you, please, try and fit everyone's viewpoint into the same article constructively, instead of "ohh! capitalism! revert!" -- Tmh 00:29, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For the record, these are the recent additions that have been reverted.
The last text dump added some utter POV gibberish. [7] Will someone deal with it? I don't have the energy to deal with the user that added it. 172 21:31, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This section has way too many weasil words and appears to be pushing a POV in the controversy over what relationship National Socialism (Nazism) has to Socialism. The weasil words include several anonymous appeal to authority arguments e.g. "most political theorists," "historians and political theorists generally argue," "most political theorists...reject this claim" without identifying WHO these "political theorists" and "historians" are or what bearing they have on this subject. In short, the author of this section appears to have stated his POV on the subject and "validated" it with supposed "expert" opinion that is neither specified nor elaborated.
I attempted an edit toward greater neutrality by removing the weasil words and simply replacing it with a link to the section where this topic is discussed extensively under the National Socialism article. This seems to be the most neutral way of handling this situation without repeating what's already over there, which would be redundant. Rangerdude 21:56, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Gah, not this again. As to weasel words, it is hard to cite historians who believe that Nazism was not socialism directly, because it is an assumption - no serious historians argue the contrary, so there has been no need for major historians or political theorists to argue that Nazism was not socialism. john k 00:14, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well, I certainly welcome learning the thoughts of economic historians who think otherwise, but 'generally,' Kenysian and Corportist-like economics are not considered a variant of socialism, with the NSDAP providing workers (and peasents) with any real, beyond New Deal rights, specifically and very crucially at the expense of centralized wealth. So, virtually all we are left with (in a Socialist viz. Kenysian sense) are platitudes to that effect on the part of the NSDAP. Now, even if JK is correct, and no 'serious' scholars express themselves so literally and outright (as JK seems to suggest, for risking reductionism) on the polemic, they certainly qualify this and provide ample basis for a comparison. The question as to which policies the Nazis did implement which, socialistically, had a depth, intensity and intention to go beyond rhetoric and a blame-centred ideological indoctrination, seems a pressing question. I am open to the possibility that I overlooked parts of the critical scholarship on that front, and I hope all of you would believe me when I say that, in the event this is the case, it is something I genuinely welcome learning (for my own intellectual orientation and knowledge on the subject). El_C 03:07, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Then lets start with the recommendation I just made - replacing the weasil words with a simple link.Rangerdude 00:10, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't like that, if you don't go into it at all, and just give a link, it gives the impression that there's a close relationship between them, when the relationship is distinctly antithetical. It's kind of like going to the George Bush page and saying "for an examination of the relationship between Hitler and Bush, go here". Sure, on the Hitler page, it might say there is no relationship, but the link gives that impression to those who don't read it. It's POV in nature.-- Che y Marijuana 00:58, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
Cite some sources for your claims. "most scholars"??? ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 17:30, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Will you please cite some sources for your claim: "most scholars" ?
is a 'request.' I supplanted 'most' with 'many' until the former could be better established.
El_C 13:44, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)Please cite the "most socialists", "most scholors" etc.. surveys to which you theoretically refer (assuming this isn't just a lot of original "research". Repeat as neccesary. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 08:37, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am currently disputing "many", as well as "most", in different places. Cite the sources for these amounts, or stop inflicting this article with POV. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 08:46, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Look at the differences between our two edits [8]. I removed POV. Some of it was impossible to cite
being purely opinion (it could be attributed to an expert, of course...). Other changes are citable in theory
but I assume you have no survey of socialists, much less scholors, or political theorists (lol!) with which to back them up. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 08:48, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
So your saying you have no evidence, I take it. Feel free to revert yourself then. Thanks for your time, ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 09:12, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Cite your "widely-known historiographical opinion and consensus", or move on. This is a reference source, not a repository for propagandistic musings. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 11:15, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Marx was not the first person to define socialism - nor was he at all Marx wrote about Communism not socialism Sir Thomas More wrote the book "Utopia" in 1516 long before Marx He is Considered the first to define and discuss socialism
thge red flag does not represent socialism or communism - it represents the bloodshed in revolution
>>Here are some photos that show the glories of socialism in Cuba: www.therealcuba.com
I beleive that the beginning of the article was very messy, with scattered points, not really forming a coherent whole. So, I've attempted to clean it up a bit, most of those points are now in the "see also" section, and the article now begins a little more confidently. If there's any problems, just post them here. -- Brendanfox 02:23, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article should have a nice simple definition for socialism near the beginning of the article instead of forcing readers to wade trhough the entire article of history and analysis. Phoenix Hacker 01:58, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
Can someone create Branches of Socialism, Criticisms of Socialism, etc. The article is also 90kb long, so I reckon that is should be streamlined. Also may the Controversy and the NPOV labels be removed. I am 90 percent sure that this article represents all the POVs.
I must agree with some previous comments. This article is very hard to follow. I arrived here thinking it would be an article on the modern version of Socialism as practiced in many European countries, where you have tons of Socialist parties. It turns out that this article is not at all on that subject (which is apparently treated in Social Democracy, but no link in the lead points THAT out), but that it is mostly on the marxist idea of socialism. The note of usage should be put close to the top, in my opinion.
Secondly, pardon my ignorance but what exactly is the difference between communism and socialism (as it is treated here)? I personnally have no idea. But I guess that many people coming to wikipedia to look up Socialism and Communism would be interested in a paragraph comparing both.
Third, in the remainder of the criticisms section, only extremist economists or "scholars" are listed. This is unfortunate, since it gives the (erroneaous) impression that socialism was only criticised by extremists. Luis rib 21:28, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I believe I clarified the start now, without ignoring the communist past. I've been editing the start for days and even added that box, so I hope its ok now. But I can't fix the rest of the article coz its too marxist/communist for me, and I am not in the position to revise that. The original contributors should handle that, also in the other related articles. I suggest to check the site of Socialist International. It explains everything about socialism today with respect to government and economy. Socialism is very different today. Communism, an offshoot, or branch of Socialism is now widely rejected by SI. Also, I removed the controversial label thing, no heated debates here.
For comparison, according to the SI site,
It is so boring
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Earlier discussions:
I'm fine with perhaps linking to criticisms on another page. I'm not fine with AndyL trying to silence criicisms (see the section below on Criticism and AndyL's shameful edits--my apologies to AndyL if this was a typo). I'm also not fine with implying that most objections to Socialism are just over its economics. Here are a few political and philosophical criticisms off the top of my head:
Because Socialism in the broadest of senses does not define a political structure, there can be no criticisms against this (non-existent) political structure. However, many practices in Socialist countries are routinely criticized. Any deviation from democracy is criticized, and many socialist countries have instituted limits on personal freedoms such as immigration and emigration; ownership of private property (versus ownership by the state); and civil liberties (versus state decisions for the good of all people). So states that are authoritarian "dictatorships of the proletariat" that do not provide social services to non-citizens, prevent citizens from leaving the country, confiscate or outlaw private property, and execute "counter-revolutionaries" are criticized, though such a state may not be considered as Socialist by other Socialists. A counter to these criticisms is that these limitations are often duplicated in Capitalist countries (even if to lesser degree). For example, the US restricts immigration and does not allow prisoners to emigrate; does not allow business monopolies or personal ownership of nuclear weapons and enforces eminent domain (legalized theft of private property for public use); and America's celebrated "Free Speech" does not allow incendiary speech or bomb threats and it does not even prevent your employer from firing you for something said, even if you say it after hours.
The scientific community at large does not recognize Socialism as scientific--that is, scientists don't find Socialist theories even worthy of criticism--but on occasion, philosophers of science make fun of it. I'll quote Lakatos in "Lecture One: The Demarcation Problem" from "For and Against Method": I remember back in my Popperian days I used to put this question to Marxists and Freudians: "Tell me, what specific historical or social events would have to occur in order for you to give up your Marxism?" I remember this was usually accompanied by either stunned silence or confusion. But I was very pleased with the effect (p. 26). The Freudian theories and Marxism also appear to have something which Einstein's theory of quantum electrodynamics lacks. If you happen to meet someone who works in these latter fields, you usually find you are facing a person subject to frequent headaches brought on by the number of problems he has to solve, someone who has many doubts about the whole theory, who doesn't really know if he is coming or going, who sees puzzles everywhere. Now consider a Freudian of Marxist: he lives in a state of happiness, he can explain everything, and enjoys that happy, relaxed state of mind called `understanding'. If you go to a theoretical physicist, he usually says: "I do not understand what is going on in the universe, but I have some theories and occasionally my experiments work; but I still do not understand what God meant with this chaos." Approach a Freudian or a Marxist, on the other hand, and everything falls into place (p. 27). There is a fantastic quote regarding Historical Myths in Lecture 3: "when you have utopian standards ... you end up in lies" (p. 47). A counter to this teasing is that Socialism is not scientific or that Lakatos is a counter-revolutionary and as such must be executed by the state.
Given any area where Socialism differs from "western" society (Britain, U.S., Australia, Japan, etc.) and there will be criticism. The article only noted economic criticism because Socialism was defined purely economically. It is dishonest to pretend that only the economists dislike Socialism. - James
The link between socialism and nationalism should be explicity acknowledged, even though the connection is not a logical necessity, but rather mediated through human nature. For instance socialist proposals in the United States when implemented have tended to increase resentment against immigration and immigrants. The US does not have the luxury the buffer of distance from the third world. Immigration gets criminalized, and the now illegal immigrants are considered a burden upon the welfare state. Implementing socialism on a national scale does not advance socialisms goals internatinoally, because it can be argued that the poor of the world benefit more from emmigation to the US than they would from the implementation of socialism within the US. A socialize medicine that resulted kidney transplants for the previously uninsured in the US, is a misallocation of resources when internationally hundreds of lives could be saved with the same commitment of resources as represented in dollar terms.-- Silverback 10:31, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let me point out that Mihnea is wrong :)
Sam [
Spade] 11:28, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[sarcasm] Wow! Such an amazing argument, Sam! I can't think how to reply to that one! [/sarcasm] ;) -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:46, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In summary, I think its very important to separate socialist propoganda and doctrine from what is actually practiced. Sam [ Spade] 12:27, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yeah let's leave the fringe analysis of socialism on the fringe. Silverback has not even presented a case, just wild assertions. I can't think of a single socialist measure or proposal that singles out immigrants from receiving products or services. In the so-called communist block, it is relatively easy to emmigrate there. Significant numbers of Thai people move to Vietnam. People from all over Latin America go to Cuba, even if just for a few weeks, to receive medical treatments which they administer to anyone for free or for a small nominal charge.
Within countries that are capitalist that call themselves democracies, "socialistic" measures sometimes are introduced and implemented. Does this lead to Nationalism? No, for at least two reasons. Socialistic measures aren't socialism. This isn't a page about welfare reform or public sector service opportunities. It is a page about Socialism. Also, whatever the right wing of a nation, or its nationalists, want to legislate against immigrants or "outsiders" or whatever, is the work of the nationalists and not the socialists. The socialists policy is "open borders". This can be found on any socialist party's website.
Internationalism is a major aspect of most all socialisms. Silverback cites no examples or facts but rather appeals to a certain variety of "common sense" gleaned from life in "middle America".
If any such "socialism leads to nationalism" polemic is going to appear in any form on this page, it had better be cited from primary sources which meet academic criteria and not original research.
See wiki policy!! If there is one or two professors of the Libertarian school, likely from the U.S, who have published books on the matter of "socialism leads to nationalism", CITE those sources and then be prepared to be told that it is a wildly minority opinion and will thus be given such weight. In other words, if this is something from the Ayn Rand Institute, or the Von Mises Group, say so, and we know that this is the POV of Von Mises or Rand, or someone of note.
Unfortunately, or fortunately rather, this page cannot be "Silverback proves Socialism leads to Nationalism through Logical deduction because of His theory on Human Nature". -- Capone 18:50, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
For the record, this mess is now listed at Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Most of the statements"? There is only one statement that I keep reverting, and that is your absurd, ridiculous and blatantly POV claim that all socialism other than the "anarcho-" or "libertarian" versions is nationalistic. You are oblivious to reason, and any arguments I throw at you seem to be hitting an impenetrable wall. Go back to review the previous section of this talk page, and you will notice that I have answered and demolished your points - and quite long ago, I might add. Furthermore, you don't seem to grasp the fact that any statement of yours which is not shared or supported by anyone worthy of being mentioned in an encyclopedia article is, by definition, POV. If you wish, we can add to the article the following statement: " User:Silverback believes that all socialism other than the "anarcho-" or "libertarian" versions is nationalistic." That would be a fact. And it would stand up for about 2 seconds before someone rightfully removed it. If you want your opinion posted here, come back when you're a world-famous political analyst. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:48, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
are both places for resolving problems, after the talk pages of the articles and editors involved have failed to achieve the needed results.
Please review , Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot, Wikipedia:Wikiquette and Wikipedia:Truce as needed. Cheers, Sam [ Spade] 16:54, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
From the above it seems clear you are confusing "nationalist socialists" with "state socialists". Nationalism and statism are not the same thing ie the nation and the state are not synonymous. AndyL 18:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Nation is an ethnic/cultural concept. State refers to the governmental apparatus of a specific country. "State socialists" believe that socialism can be achieved by putting sectors of the economy under state control. They make the assumption that "the state" is synonymous with the people and that democratic control over the economy (or workers control) can be achieved through expanding the state sector both through state owned enterprises, state regulation of economic relations and state administered taxation and redistribution of wealth. Other socialists argue that for true socialism one needs the state to whither away and for the economy and society to be run directly by the working class without the state as an intermediary. "Nationalist socialists", if there is such a thing, would be chavinistic and believe in the superiority of their "nation" over other nations. They also may be more concerned with the well being of their particular nation than of all of humanity or of all the citizens of a particular state. A nationalist would not necessarily want the state to have more power in society, they simply are interested in the well being of their group. Indeed, because nationalists are more concerned about their nation and are not concerned about class it is doubtful that one can be both a nationalist and a socialist. AndyL 19:32, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have to say, silverback is right on the $, as usual. Socialists restrict people with overbearing regulations, even on simple things like leaving the country! I don't know if Mihnea knows anyone who has lived in, or been to a socialist country, but its not all sunshine and roses. Scandanavia may be nice to visit, but they have a very sluggish economy, and an extremely high suicide rate. Besides, their democratic. When you look at non-democratic socialist countries... lets just say China is probably the best (due to being the most capitalistic), and I hope you know at least a little about the downsides of china... Can you imagine someone immigrating to N Korea? Thats communism for ya! Sam [ Spade] 01:18, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sam, I thought you were a psych major? Certainly you know the link between lack of sunshine and suicide rates. Also, last time I checked, Scandanavian countries don't have any particular rules barring anyone from leaving. As for immigration restrictions are you familiar with Switzerland? Both you and Silverback are engaging in broad generalizations, as per usual. Also, I don't find the US particularly open to Mexican immigrants, does that mean the US is socialist? AndyL 02:28, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is no correlation between immigration restrictions and "statism". Most countries in the world, "statist" or not, have very restrictive rules in regards to immigration. Changes in immigration policy have little to do with "statism" and everything to do with the needs of the domestic economy for surplus labour. AndyL 02:28, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Silverback, have you ever heard of the European Union? If you did you might know that a) border controls are consistent throughout the EU and that b) EU citizens can travel and move freely within the EU regardless of whether, say, they are moving from Italy to Sweden or from Sweden to Spain.
Secondly, are you aware that it's almost impossible to get Swiss citizenship? Migrant workers can live in Switzerland for years, their children can be born their and still not be eligible for Swiss citizenship. Switzerland is one of the most capitalist countries in the world. Similarly, it's very difficult to get Kuwaiti citizenship (ask the workers from the Phillipines who work there).
Please stop speaking out of ignorance. AndyL 16:14, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Chinese and Cubans flow quite freely in and out of their respective countries. It is in the United States where Cubans are not given entrance visas. Capone 69.107.251.230 05:24, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Cuba and the US negotiated the Cuban Adjustment Act a few years ago under which the United States was required to issue 20,000 visas to Cubans annually. However, the Bush administration has refused to comply with the act issuing only 505 visas to Cubans in the first six months of 2003 and has dragged its feet since. The problem with Cuban emigration is not that Cuba isn't letting people leave, it's that the US isn't letting people in. I know that doesn't fit into your ideologically blinkered world view but it is a fact.
Have you ever heard of the INS Silverback? AndyL 16:14, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Silverback, have you ever heard of the European Union? If you did you might know that a) border controls are consistent throughout the EU and that b) EU citizens can travel and move freely within the EU regardless of whether, say, they are moving from Italy to Sweden or from Sweden to Spain.
My understanding is that a citizen of an EU country resident in any EU country must be treated in the same way as a citizen of the country he or she is living in ie Sweden must treat citizens of the UK living in Sweden the same way they treat their own citizens. In any case, you seem to be conceding a point I made above in that Sweden's immigration restrictions aren't a result of "statism" but a result of the fact that Sweden is a desirable destination for immigrants ie high demand. Sweden, btw, has no emigration restrictions. AndyL 17:29, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I was referring to immigration from non-EU countries. Sweden is a highly desirable destination for immigrants from, say, North Africa, because it has a high standard of living. AndyL 18:40, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Silverback, what you describe is the case throughout Europe (and indeed throughout most of the industrialised world) regardless of whether or not the country is "socialist". The situation is the same in Ireland, for instance, and as I keep saying, Switzerland. As for the EU rules you describe the 3 month rule etc (which I had not known about, apparently while the EU is quite advanced in allowing citizens to live in each others countries it has not yet reached the stage I had thought it had) applies throughout the EU, not just in Sweden, regardless of whether or not the country is "socialist".
There are a lot of blondes in Sweden. By your logic, blondeness, therefore, must be a feature of socialism.
And again, immigration policies are not simply a product of nationalism, they are as I keep saying also a matter of economics and demand ie countries for which have high standards of living and are popular destinations for immigrants tend to have stricter immigration controls than countries that are not popular destinations and have low standards of living - the critical factor in determining immigration policy is whether the domestic economy is in need of more workers. The US has rather strict immigration policies (the INS, you've heard of it?) is this a product of American nationalism or the fact that a lot of people wish to move to the US? Canada, which arguably is more "socialist" than the US, allows more immigrants per capita each year than the US (both countries, I believe, accept about 200,000 each year despite the fact that the US has ten times Canada's population). How do you explain that if you correlate immigration controls with "socialism"? AndyL 20:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Silverback, consider the fact that correlation is not causation. Just because something exists in Sweden does not mean that thing is a product of socialism, particularly when that same thing exists in numerous other countries regardless of their economic or political system. AndyL 20:16, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
And what does that have to do with nationalism? You seem to have a very vague idea of what nationalism is given that your "analysis" could hold true for any industrialised country. In fact in Sweden as in other European countries it is the (anti-socialist) right wing that is most anti-immigration while the socialist left is most sympathetic to the rights of immigrants and refugees. If your correlation of "socialism" with anti-immigration sentiment was true then the opposite would be the case. As for your impression of Switzerland I think you've seen too many Heidi movies. Switzerland is actually highly urbanised. In fact, throughout Europe, "nationalism" is the domain of the most right wing parties. AndyL 02:49, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
So then are we to assume that it is the anti-socialists we should be primarily concerned with when looking at the reasons behind nationalism? Capone 69.111.18.60 09:18, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is what happens when one compares existing examples of societies which have been erroneously labeled in American schools and media vs. ideal societies we dream about after reading Ayn Rand or Von Mises. Socialism cannot be imposed upon a state; a state that is socialist, according to the Marxist, Leninist, and Trotskyist senses of the word, is an oxymoron. Socialism, Communism, to them is international and stateless. What the socialist imagines communism to be is analogous to what the libertarian imagines capitalism to be. Capone 69.111.18.60 09:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You know, I really don't think you have a clue what nationalism is. No wonder you think this article doesn't pay attention to the "nationalist" aspects of socialism, in your view nationalism is a form of socialism!
So the antithesis of socialism is still, in your mind a form, of socialism and what will the anti socialist right do in non-socialist states, the exact same thing? But somehow this is still socialist? What a strange world you live in where both socialism and "anti-socialism" are socialist. Silverback, perhaps you should just go somewhere and argue with yourself. It's clear you have nothing to contribute to this article. Your concept of socialism is a straw man, it has nothing to do with reality. AndyL 12:28, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This discussion is completely bizarre. Silverback seems to have no clue what either socialism or nationalism is about, especially nationalism. Why don't you read a book on nationalism and get back to us? I recommend Eric Hobsbawm's Nations and Nationalism in Europe since 1780 or Ernest Gellner's Nations and Nationalism. Anderson's Imagined Communities is famous, but not all that good. There's also numerous, numerous books by Anthony Smith that all say the same thing. By the way, the Nationalism article is dreadful. Until just now, it listed Smith, Anderson, and Gellner as famous nationalists! john k 04:13, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I wouldn't say "severely impolite", I didn't question the legitimacy of Silverback's birth after all. It's just clear he really doesn't know what he's talking about and while it might be fun to debate him in a chat room it's pretty much a waste of time here. Thing is wikipedia is not some sort of debate forum, it's not free republic or che lives, it's an encyclopedia and these pointless ideological debates are complete wastes of time and counterproductive distractions, especially when a participant, as Silverback admits, is ignorant about what it is he or she is talking about. Editors should write in areas they are expert or scholars in, not areas where they profess ignorance. To do the latter is pure self-indulgence and just a waste of everyone else's time. To say so is not "impolite" it's just cutting to the chase. AndyL 22:32, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Capone 00:17, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Um no, I called you ignorant because you don't seem to know anything about socialism or nationalism and because you're engaging in nonsensical arguments. Arguing that socialism is nationalistic because anti-socialists in Sweden are nationalistic defies logic. The point is, however, that our purpose here is not to have a debating forum but to write and edit. If you want to engage in original research and put forward your own personal arguments this isn't the place to do it. I'm sure Sam can refer you to the Wiki rules against original research. AndyL 21:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is original research unless you can point me to studies that draw the conclusion that there is a correlation between socialism in Sweden and xenophobic attitudes. AndyL 05:42, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In other words the answer is no, there are no studies that make those conclusions. Then your argument is completely immaterial to this article. AndyL 06:48, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Excellent, it seems you are writing an article on the (POV) Philosophy of Von Mises, Hayek, and Dick Army. What does this have to do with an NPOV article on socialism? Considering that the libertarian world view considers nearly any government activity at all as "socialism", I don't think that this is helpfull to the article. I still can't make heads or tails of this "social net" = "nationalism". It seems that the fact that the United States has the highest rate of immigration but also has the smallest welfare state (excluding corporate welfare and the military industrial complex) per capita among the industrialized countries would force us to examine that proposition again. It would seem that any industrialized nation where there were jobs and opportunity would be a desirable destination for an immigrant. The argument, then becomes, that nations should either cease being nations or they should cease being desirable by ruining their own economy or political system. Most socialists agree that nation states should be done away with as soon as physically possible. One cannot possibly claim that socialism is inherently nationalistic while simultaneously calling for a one world government, can they? Capone 68.123.238.128 22:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(sigh) a one world nation is a contradiction in terms. Now I'm convinced you don't know what you're talking about. AndyL 04:18, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You confuse the term state with nation (as many Americans do) hence your confusion of statism and state socialism with nationalism (discussed earlier).. AndyL 05:16, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I suggest you review M:Foundation issues and get back to the article. Sam [ Spade] 23:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes and? I see nothing there that encourages editors to edit in areas in which they profess ignorance. AndyL 23:23, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'll try to follow your example. AndyL 04:29, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sam, editing as an IP (ie not registering) is not the same as editing in an area with which you are not familiar. And in any case, Silverback is a registered user so I don't know what your point is AndyL 15:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
without registering. You're parsing a sentence to make it mean something it doesn't. AndyL 21:18, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Parsing quotations is intellectually dishonest. I hope you know enough not to do that in your writing and editing. AndyL 21:21, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"No, I am trying to make the obvious more obvious" No, you're changing the meaning of a sentence by removing what it is that's being referred to (whether IP-only editors have the same rights as registered editors).
The article would be going better if people with ideological axes to grind didn't keep trying to insert side arguments like "nazism is socialism" or "socialism is nationalistic". AndyL 21:27, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why was most of the information from the criticism section removed? TDC 17:48, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
You may want to see the archives. I am unaware of any mass amounts of criticism being removed. Capone 00:05, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Most arguments made by the anonymous user were totally within NPOV, ie. "they said..." and "according to...". I see someone really got angry over them, but lots of good work including my contributions were deleted right back - could people, even when they see what they view themselves as messy and POV stuff, please lay back, check the edits and try to NPOV them without reverting 8 long edits? Could you, please, try and fit everyone's viewpoint into the same article constructively, instead of "ohh! capitalism! revert!" -- Tmh 00:29, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For the record, these are the recent additions that have been reverted.
The last text dump added some utter POV gibberish. [7] Will someone deal with it? I don't have the energy to deal with the user that added it. 172 21:31, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This section has way too many weasil words and appears to be pushing a POV in the controversy over what relationship National Socialism (Nazism) has to Socialism. The weasil words include several anonymous appeal to authority arguments e.g. "most political theorists," "historians and political theorists generally argue," "most political theorists...reject this claim" without identifying WHO these "political theorists" and "historians" are or what bearing they have on this subject. In short, the author of this section appears to have stated his POV on the subject and "validated" it with supposed "expert" opinion that is neither specified nor elaborated.
I attempted an edit toward greater neutrality by removing the weasil words and simply replacing it with a link to the section where this topic is discussed extensively under the National Socialism article. This seems to be the most neutral way of handling this situation without repeating what's already over there, which would be redundant. Rangerdude 21:56, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Gah, not this again. As to weasel words, it is hard to cite historians who believe that Nazism was not socialism directly, because it is an assumption - no serious historians argue the contrary, so there has been no need for major historians or political theorists to argue that Nazism was not socialism. john k 00:14, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well, I certainly welcome learning the thoughts of economic historians who think otherwise, but 'generally,' Kenysian and Corportist-like economics are not considered a variant of socialism, with the NSDAP providing workers (and peasents) with any real, beyond New Deal rights, specifically and very crucially at the expense of centralized wealth. So, virtually all we are left with (in a Socialist viz. Kenysian sense) are platitudes to that effect on the part of the NSDAP. Now, even if JK is correct, and no 'serious' scholars express themselves so literally and outright (as JK seems to suggest, for risking reductionism) on the polemic, they certainly qualify this and provide ample basis for a comparison. The question as to which policies the Nazis did implement which, socialistically, had a depth, intensity and intention to go beyond rhetoric and a blame-centred ideological indoctrination, seems a pressing question. I am open to the possibility that I overlooked parts of the critical scholarship on that front, and I hope all of you would believe me when I say that, in the event this is the case, it is something I genuinely welcome learning (for my own intellectual orientation and knowledge on the subject). El_C 03:07, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Then lets start with the recommendation I just made - replacing the weasil words with a simple link.Rangerdude 00:10, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't like that, if you don't go into it at all, and just give a link, it gives the impression that there's a close relationship between them, when the relationship is distinctly antithetical. It's kind of like going to the George Bush page and saying "for an examination of the relationship between Hitler and Bush, go here". Sure, on the Hitler page, it might say there is no relationship, but the link gives that impression to those who don't read it. It's POV in nature.-- Che y Marijuana 00:58, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
Cite some sources for your claims. "most scholars"??? ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 17:30, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Will you please cite some sources for your claim: "most scholars" ?
is a 'request.' I supplanted 'most' with 'many' until the former could be better established.
El_C 13:44, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)Please cite the "most socialists", "most scholors" etc.. surveys to which you theoretically refer (assuming this isn't just a lot of original "research". Repeat as neccesary. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 08:37, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am currently disputing "many", as well as "most", in different places. Cite the sources for these amounts, or stop inflicting this article with POV. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 08:46, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Look at the differences between our two edits [8]. I removed POV. Some of it was impossible to cite
being purely opinion (it could be attributed to an expert, of course...). Other changes are citable in theory
but I assume you have no survey of socialists, much less scholors, or political theorists (lol!) with which to back them up. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 08:48, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
So your saying you have no evidence, I take it. Feel free to revert yourself then. Thanks for your time, ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 09:12, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Cite your "widely-known historiographical opinion and consensus", or move on. This is a reference source, not a repository for propagandistic musings. ( Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 11:15, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Marx was not the first person to define socialism - nor was he at all Marx wrote about Communism not socialism Sir Thomas More wrote the book "Utopia" in 1516 long before Marx He is Considered the first to define and discuss socialism
thge red flag does not represent socialism or communism - it represents the bloodshed in revolution
>>Here are some photos that show the glories of socialism in Cuba: www.therealcuba.com
I beleive that the beginning of the article was very messy, with scattered points, not really forming a coherent whole. So, I've attempted to clean it up a bit, most of those points are now in the "see also" section, and the article now begins a little more confidently. If there's any problems, just post them here. -- Brendanfox 02:23, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article should have a nice simple definition for socialism near the beginning of the article instead of forcing readers to wade trhough the entire article of history and analysis. Phoenix Hacker 01:58, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
Can someone create Branches of Socialism, Criticisms of Socialism, etc. The article is also 90kb long, so I reckon that is should be streamlined. Also may the Controversy and the NPOV labels be removed. I am 90 percent sure that this article represents all the POVs.
I must agree with some previous comments. This article is very hard to follow. I arrived here thinking it would be an article on the modern version of Socialism as practiced in many European countries, where you have tons of Socialist parties. It turns out that this article is not at all on that subject (which is apparently treated in Social Democracy, but no link in the lead points THAT out), but that it is mostly on the marxist idea of socialism. The note of usage should be put close to the top, in my opinion.
Secondly, pardon my ignorance but what exactly is the difference between communism and socialism (as it is treated here)? I personnally have no idea. But I guess that many people coming to wikipedia to look up Socialism and Communism would be interested in a paragraph comparing both.
Third, in the remainder of the criticisms section, only extremist economists or "scholars" are listed. This is unfortunate, since it gives the (erroneaous) impression that socialism was only criticised by extremists. Luis rib 21:28, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I believe I clarified the start now, without ignoring the communist past. I've been editing the start for days and even added that box, so I hope its ok now. But I can't fix the rest of the article coz its too marxist/communist for me, and I am not in the position to revise that. The original contributors should handle that, also in the other related articles. I suggest to check the site of Socialist International. It explains everything about socialism today with respect to government and economy. Socialism is very different today. Communism, an offshoot, or branch of Socialism is now widely rejected by SI. Also, I removed the controversial label thing, no heated debates here.
For comparison, according to the SI site,
It is so boring