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It is extremely bad etiquette to remove a "merge" tag without discussion (in fact it is against the rules, but I don't feel like wikilawyering). Please do not remove the tag until a consensus develops either way.
If you oppose the proposal, you should discuss in the centralized thread in the {{ mergeto}} article, in this case Allegations of apartheid. I will restore the tagging, and add a note in the correct thread. Thanks!-- Cerejota 00:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Apparently to make the article appear more extensive than it actually is, extensive quotes have been added form single sources. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and attacks all quality principles of wikipedia. If we cleanup the quote farm, which is unnecesary, we are left with a good section for the parent article. Thanks!-- Cerejota 04:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
France maintained colonial rule in the territory which has been described as "quasi-apartheid" this is stupid and totally false. there was no such things as US buses for black and white in algeria, besides algeria was truly part of france as made of département like today corsica. for example muslim children went in public schools with european french kids, i've seen worst apartheids. this view is a simplification by american editors, reads like all mslim in france are from algeria, but this totally false many comes from morroco and tunisia and black africa as well, all of which are former french colony or protectorates, there is not a single word about this. this article is totaly oriented and a mystification this can be seen in "Criticism"'s POV authors selection. this article doesn't exist in other language, don't ask why. Paris By Night 09:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Can we continue this debate after the AFD result comes in? Thanks, -- Urthogie 14:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I think there has been some sort of error. The notes section is an exactly duplicate of the references section in the article. 15 each. The order is slightly different though. I thought it was an intentional error but someone just reverted my fix of it. -- CGM1980 15:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
They are both shorter, and less original researchy.-- Cerejota 12:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I just quote the article :
Tariq Ramadan, a French Muslim,...
But, according to Tariq Ramadan, the man seems to be a Swiss Muslim...
Flying jacket 15:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Since the AfD is over, I think its time to focus on quotefarm (ie quality).
I will just be bold and do my edits. They will be mostly switch sourced material to encyclopedic voice, rather than quotes, whenever possible.
Thanks!-- Cerejota 15:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Calling the french treatment of certain categories of people an "apartheid" is a funny idea, as France is one of the only countries where the nation doesn't recognize "races" (I quote this ugly word) and that gives the very same treatment to all religions. It might be hard to believe for some non-french, but there is absolultely no way to count the amout of french people who are "black" or "white" or "blue" or "green", as this information has no legal existence : it's not on the id card, not on the medical files, it just exists on the police document, along the eyes colour and the existence of tatoos. In a same way, religion is not a public matter, it is something you do at home, like any hobby. It is not possible, therefore, to tell who is a catholic, a jew, a lutherian, a muslim or an atheist, and to count such people. And of course, people love who they want to.
Well my point is that "apartheid" is not racism, it is a legally cristalized racism. Of course, racism exists in France like everywhere in the world (if you want to find a stupid and mean man, just seek for any man, he'll do fine), but it is not organized by the nation. The word "apartheid" is not well-used. But what is the most funny is that this article quotes Tariq Ramadan who is among the people who ask for a real separation between the "communities" even though they don't exist in a legal way : he allegates France to be in the situation of the south african apartheid, but he does all he can to get to that. I see that on the en: article about Ramadan, he is known as a reformer, well he is not known as that here : he is a skillful and hansome proselyt who doesn't say the same things on french mass medias (a french muslim is french before being muslim...) and on the tapes he spreads in the suburbs (...unless it is against the Qran). Basicaly, most of the specialists, like Antoine Sfeir (very famous analyst) think that Tariq Ramadan is a fondamentalist.
Anyways, I hope there will be a way to do anything of that page but for me it is as stupid as if the fr: wikipedia had an article as "Allegations of George Bush being a nazi" : nazism, like apartheid, are well-defined organizations, well defined historic periods, one sometimes use them as insults, because they are strong words, but it is (sorry) a little stupid to use them litterally concerning a contemporary subject.
Jean-no
00:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
This is exactly what I tried to explain during the AFD before being thrown out of the debate by the author of the article himself because I never wrote in other AFDs before (There should be a first time, you know).
Many good arguments were raised against "allegation of French apartheid" but they were considered unconvincing by those who finally decided to keep the article. Most people in favour of "deletion" were classified as biaised French editors who wanted to defend their country's reputation.
I think this appreciation was wrong because many French people like you and me tried to explain that France does not have any legal segregation system but face instead social segregation and racism. These problems are sometime mentionned in a metaphoric way as "social apartheid" (I think this metaphor is inadequate, but THIS SUBJECT could be rightly discussed as THIS OPINION OF MINE IS ONLY AN OPINION).
Admitting France actual problems while denying imaginary ones seems to me to be a balanced approach and a worthy contribution to an encyclopedia.
The fact that blatantly inaccurate articles can survive untouched in Wikipedia is unfortunate. When I will find the time for this, I will maybe add a comment to the article itself (with proper sourcing) to show that NO LEGAL SEGREGATION SYSTEM exists in France.
Jeemde 10:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
“Allegations of French apartheid draw analogies between France and apartheid-era South Africa”
At last, an introductory sentence truly fitting for a serious, reliable encyclopedia ! Thank’s to this budding “Allegations of X country being the new apartheid South-Africa” series, to be followed, hopefully, by “Allegations of personnality X being the new Hitler”, Wikipedia should eventually break away from its previous image as a Pokemon and porn actresses thesaurus. Allow me to pay hommage to the geniuses who initiated this project. Watch your back, EB! Miuki 08:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you-- Victor falk 15:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
About the references, what do you think of these ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Africa_in_the_apartheid_era
"Apartheid (meaning separateness in Afrikaans, cognate to English apart and -hood) was a system of ethnic separation in South Africa from 1948, and was dismantled in a series of negotiations from 1990 to 1993, culminating in democratic elections in 1994.
The rules of Apartheid meant that people were legally classified into a racial group — the main ones being Black, White, Coloured and Indian — and were separated from each other on the basis of the legal classification. Blacks legally became citizens of one of ten bantustans (homelands) that were nominally sovereign nations. These homelands were created out of the territory of Black Reserves founded during the British Empire period -- Reserves akin to United States Indian Reservations, Canadian First Nations reserves, or Australian aboriginal reserves. Many Black South Africans never resided in these "homelands."
This prevented black people from having a vote in "white South Africa" (even if they resided there) -- their voting rights being restricted to the black homelands. Black homelands were economically the least productive areas in the country. Education, medical care, and other public services were segregated, and those available to Black people were inferior. The black education system, within "white South Africa", was designed to prepare blacks to be a working class."
And :
"PREAMBLE
The French people solemnly proclaim their attachment to the Rights of Man and the principles of national sovereignty as defined by the Declaration of 1789, confirmed and complemented by the Preamble to the Constitution of 1946, and to the rights and duties as defined in the Charter for the Environment of 2004.
By virtue of these principles and that of the self-determination of peoples, the Republic offers to the overseas territories that express the will to adhere to them new institutions founded on the common ideal of liberty, equality and fraternity and conceived with a view to their democratic development.
Article 1
France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs. It shall be organised on a decentralised basis."
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp
I do not speak here of discrimination against coloured people, or muslims, which exists in France despite constitutional principles, what I want to point is that post 1958 an official apartheid policy is constitutionally impossible in France.
The problem is that some people use the word apartheid in an improper way to brand all kind of discrimination based on race or religion. Apartheid should only be used if there is a segregationist policy inscribed in the law.
This is obviously not the case in France.
There are a lot of associations for the defence of immigrants (legals or illegals) and they would not let pass any infrigement to the first article of the constitution without making a hell of noise and attacking France before the European Court of Justice (in case the French Parliement and Constitutional Council would let such an unconstitutional bill pass, which is highly unlikely).
Jeemde 10:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Please read WP:OR.-- Cerejota 12:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I am unfamiliar with Wikipedia's rules. As I said previously, I am a newcomer.
However, don't you think that citing "secondary sources" which are blatantly inaccurate to back an article is infriging Wikipedia:Verifiability?
If some people wrongly use a word to speak of a situation (here "apartheid" for French integration and discrimination problems), someone may gather their work and write an article like "allegation of French apartheid" in Wikipedia, based on secondary sources.
And nobody will ever be in position to contradict them because no serious scholar write about "the wrong use of the word apartheid to speak of France integration adn discrimination problems". Nobody does because it is not an issue except on Wikipedia...
The only way to adress the question for people who disagree with the article BECAUSE IT IS GROUNDED ON SOURCES WHICH USE APARTHEID IN AN INACCURATE WAY is to demonstrate this by logic. Which is what I try to do.
If you compare the definition of apartheid to the first article of the French constitution, you can only admit that apartheid is a wrong terminology to brand France's integration problems (which is an existing matter that should be developped in Wikipedia)
Jeemde 13:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to wikipedia then! I will try not to
bite you...
Now, there is a key part about WP:V I love to quote: "Verifiability, not truth." Wikipedia is not about truth, at least not in the sense people usually mean it. It is ultimately about information that is notably, verifiably, and reliably covered by people. This information might be a total lie: however since a notable person, or a notable journal carries, it can be published in wikipedia.
This is because of the well-worn pehenomena of "one man's freedom figther is another one's terrorist". You might think these allegations are utter bollocks, and you might even be right. However, people who are more notable than you are making the allegations. So we have reasons to cover them. Since we cannot engage in original research, we cannot put caveats. The information is as-is. If you have a problem, the write a letter to the editors of Diplo or some such, not to us. We only represent what others say....
I am firmly in the camp of people who are opposed to removal of content. I might support a deletion of blatantly bad content, but in general I am more for merging or keeping content.-- Cerejota 22:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you that Wikipedia cannot remove an article because of somebody's personal opinion. However, I strongly disagree about keeping a total lie in Wikipedia because it is backed by a "more notable sources" than me. A lot of people write bullshit in books or essays... The better examples are the negationists who say that no concentration camp existed during WWII.
Of course, in this case, you will find a lot of studies treating of this phonomenon (the negationism) and decyphering it. This will allow Wikipedia to see what is the truth from what is the lie and at the end, only truth will prevail (which is, I hope the aim of that encyclopedia... otherwise we can stop talking, I will just go away and come back to my Universalis).
But just imagine that we are at the beginning of negationism. One universitarian publishes an article titled "concentration camp are a legend"; a journalist makes a detailed portrait of that book; two other people give a lecture about the exaggeration of the figures commonly admitted for the death toll in German concentration camp, etc. Then someone makes an article in Wikipedia, based on all these "notable sources"... Other people, either shocked by the article, or only ennoyed to see such a lie in their Encyclopedia try to get it modified. But they only have "primary sources" under the hand... they have photos of the camps taken by US liberating army, lists of dead people, witnesses; but they do not have any single article treating about "the negationist phenomenon" (since it was not an issue until then). If this imaginary Wikipedia article was written in a remote place, far from Europe where all these events took place, these people may face the same kind of problems to bring the truth forth. They may hear the same answers: maybe you are right and what says that article is a lie but its sources are more notable than you and we cannot delete them even if you bring evidence (primary sources); you may only want to settle your own agenda.
To come back to the "Allegation of French Apartheid" article, one could argue about the existence of an "apartheid like" system in France during the occupation of Algeria (I am not a specialist of that part of France's history), one can rightly say that France HAD an "apartheid like" system under the regime of Vichy (during WWII), but it is not true that France has an "apartheid like" system nowadays. The first article of the French constitution says that no difference whatsoever can be done between French citizens based on sexes, races and religion, which is the exact opposite of Apartheid.
It would be much more interesting to split that article and merge some part with other subjects (Algeria and Vichy period would fit better in an historic section, while current social problems should have their dedicated article).
Jeemde 11:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, if an "apartheid" is self imposed it is not apartheid.
Apartheid is a political and social system in which the rights of the citizens depend on their race (or religion).
If you have a country like TODAY's France, which says in the first article of its constitution "It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs" you cannot honestly use the word apartheid to describe the problems of racial discrimination, racism and self imposed segregation.
When someone has the French nationality, he or she benefits from all rights and responsabilities linked to it. The problem is that some of these rights are hard to actually achieve (like being elected for a black person), because of racism and intolerance.
I do not try to defend France here, to pretend there is no problems between the communities living there. What I say is that Apartheid is not the right word to speak of these difficulties.
I hope you will see the difference...
Jeemde 09:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The bias is in the title. The title puts one side in a debate on the real topic (the amount and nature of racism in the country in question) on the back foot before the first word of text, and the neutrality of the article cannot be recovered after that catastrophic start. This article sets out to group together a group of slurs under the pretence that together they make an encyclopedic topic. This is no more the case than for "Allegations that French people smell". Or imagine other series of article built around usage of slurs in the media: Allegations that Tony Blair is a liar, Allegations that Angela Merkel is a liar, Allegations that Bill Clinton is a liar, or Allegations that Paris Hilton is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that Lindsay Lohan is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that .... is a talentless bimbo. All of those could be sourced, and the fact that something is sourced does not necessarily make it neutral or a legitimate subject for an encyclopedia. The quoting of sources on any article does not confirm that it complies with Wikipedia:Neutrality to the slightest degree; any biased essay can be fully sourced. No rephrasing or sourcing can make this article anything more than a politically motivated attack page. Wikipedia is not a place for debate or for arguing the toss. The presence of these articles disgraces Wikipedia. Dominictimms 13:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to discuus the relevance of this article.
Regardless of the subject or of the neutrality of it, the biggest problem of it to me, is that the whole article looks like a long list of different views of different authors about the subject. It would help a lot (especially about the neutrality problem !) to have a clear and concise article, a synthesis of the ideas which would rely on the different views of the authors.
The problem might come from the title of the article in itself, because allegations sort of refer to a list, but the AfD is over and it was decided that the article will not be renamed. Though i do not agree with that prospective, i'll try to do my best to combine all that quotes in something more simplet and easier to understand.
Also, try not to overquote. Some references are used twice or thrice. The result of this is that it seems that the subject is lacking of serious sources, and that for this reason, you use several times the same quote to make your point. A reader does not need to read thrice a quote for it to make its effect.
NicDumZ 18:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
(I shall say that i absolutely disagree with the existence of that article. The least i can do is to try to correct as much as i can this article)
The fact the the native Algerians under colonial rule have been mistreated and marginalised, taken apart from the native French, coming to exploit the land is true. (see French_rule_in_Algeria#Hegemony of the Colons. but since it is not sourced, i would recommend : fr:Algérie#Époque Coloniale ) Some authors may have, writing about that time, used the word apartheid, and well, i do not discuss that fact.
This is the first difference between the two "apartheids". In Algeria, the law and administrative procedures would ensure that Algerian would have a different status than French colons. Nowadays, people living in the suburbs and those living dans les quartiers chics have the same rights, because they have got the same nationality.
Here is the second difference between the two. In one hand we have a part of a population who is clearly indésirable, neighborhoods are being separated in purpose under cover of false reasons, schools are being closed, resulting in a low proportion of children being educated, as an aim to prevent them from occupying high qualified jobs (Vive la nation!, Yves Lacoste, éd Fayard, 1998). In other hand we have an urbanization plan, as a response to a demographic problem, willing to ensure that all have access to public school and medical care.
We must clearly separate the Algerian apartheid and the urban apartheid. I will apply myself to remove all links between those two different apartheids. I would also suggest that since the Algerian apartheid is already studied in the French rule in Algeria article, we should concentrate only on the urban apartheid. NicDumZ ~ 17:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Still OR. The only thing we can do, unless a seocndary source speaks about it, is provide sourcing abotu they obvious are: allegation of aparheid. Everything else is a novel narrative, not supported by secondary sources, hence OR. Thanks!--
Cerejota
20:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry about the direct quote, didnt see it was one, on the moment. I just did that because social exclusion is not the translation of social apartheid. whatever, i was wrong.
About {{ npov}}, Cerejota removed it because there was {{ ActiveDiscuss}}, which you removed [5]. (I wasn't blaming you)
About Raplh Peters, i don't think that adding references of his work is OR, is it ? Sure, you can discuss the sardonic word. You can say that adding that adding "althought May_1968 was a major turn in french politics" was wrong, but you could have let something like "about May 1968 : ...(quote)", and readers, going to the link, would find the obvious by themselves. And yes please stop saying i'm inventing arguments... "althought May_1968 was a major turn in french politics" is a striking proof of WP:POV I did, but it is WP:V. Just look at the article, De Gaulle had to resign. NicDumZ ~ 07:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
"The problem with this is that no articles were ever wrote about the existence or the non-existence of that link" - I strongly support that sentence...
I am a beginner, right, and I do not know well Wikipedia's rules. But there is one thing which seems important to me : If Wikipedia wants to be considered as an encyclopedia it cannot CREATE subjects which are not existing. And this is the risk if that article is kept as it is.
In our specific case, the journalists or writers used the word apartheid to name a situation which is different. They did that either because they do not know what apartheid really means or because they wanted to summarize in a single word an aspect of the situation (separation of the communities in a country). In this case it is more a "mataphoric use" of the word Apartheid.
The inadequate or metaphoric use of a word loaded by a precise meaning is minor and there is no academic writing over THIS phenomenon.
Then, by following strictly Wikipedia's rules (as stated by Cerjota and Jayig), there is no way to contradict this article (no secondary source), even if a dispassioned scholar, who would use the primary source would come to the conclusion that there is no apartheid (in its real meaning) in nowadays France.
This is a very big flaw in Wikipedia, in my view.
Jeemde 08:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
"We care little if the allegations are true, as long as reliable, verifiable, and notable sources speak about it". In this case, naming Wikipedia an encyclopedia seems to be inappropriate don't you think?
If, when I search for an information in Wikipedia about a topic I am unfamiliar with, I have to do a full scope research and read all the sources (when they are given) to check if this is true or if it is just a compilation of inaccurate material published by "notable" people (who decide they are notable by the way?)I cannot consider anymore Wikipedia as a reliable source.
OK, readers can make their own mind but the aim of Wikipedia should be to give notable AND TRUE information.
Jeemde 17:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Jeemde, you are entirely correct: Wikipedia doesn't consider itself a reliable source under WP:RS, and probably never will.
Encyclopedias have never been meant as the sole source of information about anything, or even authoritative sources, and Wikipedia takes care of sourcing everything in part to allow people to engage a topic more deeply. Even prestigious encyclopedias, like Encyclopedia Britanica are to be handled with care, and are sometimes even less reliable than wikipedia!!! [7] I think that you misunderstand the purpose of general encyclopedias and almanacs in general and of wikipedia in the specific: they are neither the last word, nor authoritative in their own.
However, we do have quality standards, and a set of rules. A good starting point to understand wikipedia is to read the five pillars of wikipedia and then follow the policies into their own pages. Thanks!-- Cerejota 11:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota, I know that no encyclopedia can be considered as 100% reliable. To see how twisted the reality can be, even in mainstream publications like French "Larousse", one should read an old version of the encyclopedia (I had access to the 1935 edition)... The information you find in it is often a reflection of the time and society in which it has been written.
However, I think that despite their authors' bias, encyclopedias always try to bring the most accurate information to their readers; at least when it come to facts.
Wikipedia is a very interesting project because no national bias can stand for long because the contributors come from all over the world. On the other hand, accuracy of the data cannot be as good because contributors are not always specialists of the field thay are treating (which is quite obvious in the "Allegation of French Apartheid article").
This structural weakness does not mean that the "Wikipedian community" should not strive to give the best information possible to its readers, and try to better the published materials' accuracy.
As long as we talk of opinions: 'can we qualify French rule in Algeria "apartheid"?' or 'is the word "apartheid" rightly used to qualify the current situation in French suburbs?' you can tell me: there are "notable" sources who thinks the answer is yes so it should stay in Wikipedia. The discussion should then be brought on the degree of notability of the sources.
But when we talk of facts, like 1+1=2, there is no place to various interpretations. Facts should be accurately reported and if not they should be deleted.
This article can well be kept in Wikipedia if some people think it is worthy enough, but it should not keep its delusive title. See the facts: apartheid in its precise meaning is a separation of the racial communities set by the law of the country... and France constitution first article makes it impossible in that country.
Let's discuss the "apartheid like" situation in France after saying that apartheid is used in a broader meaning (racial separation) and not in its real meaning.
Jeemde 09:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I see this article was moved to " urban apartheid in France" [8] (and back in a jaygiffy!;).
While this is more correct, the subject it covers is known as commonly known as "exclusion sociale". There is an article on the French wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusion_sociale (eng). While of not so good quality, other related fr.wiki articles are: Banlieues, Le Ghetto français, Politique de la ville en France, Émeutes de 2005 dans les banlieues françaises ( eng 1, eng 2), violences urbaines(a featured article), sociologie urbaine.
I'd be more than happy to help translate and transwiki them, but I think that one who believes that what Racine calls "exclusion sociale" is spelled "allegations of apartheid" by Shakespeare has, pardon my French, lost a couple of marbles in translation(:.. -- Victor falk 19:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Let's change the name of the article to "exclusion sociale" then or whatever is more correct. "Allegations of French apartheid" is a ridiculous title since there is no such term as "French apartheid" and since these aren't "allegations" but an acknowledged social problem. -- LOTHAR
I don't see the need for linkage, the most correct title should apply regardless of conflicts in other articles. --LOTHAR
<irony>Nah we can't change the title, coz' when we type French apartheid in google we have secondary WP:RS that mention the problem.</irony>. Sorry. Seriously, the fact is some authors used that term. And... Well. If they used it, in the views of the creators of this articles, and, sadly, regarding to WP rules, talking about French apartheid is right. I think that the only think you can do if you (we) disagree with the quoted authors is to try to find authors who share your point and to confront all the Point of Views...
But the hard thing, and the problem with the title in my view, is that it must be related, in one way or in another, to the term apartheid ! We can't have a fair article about exclusion because it is entitled allegations of apartheid. Then, all information not linked with apartheid has nothing to do with it. And from that view, since i don't think that we'll find one day an article about how using the term apartheid for describing the social situation in France is maladroit-unfit-exaggerated, the only content that there will ever be in this article will be FOR the thesis of an apartheid in France. We all learned about thesis and anti-thesis in school, I think that maybe the only reason that would justify renaming it would be this one : This title does not allow any possible criticism of the thesis presented in the article.
I think i tried to be fair and moderated on this one, thinking about WP rules, and so on. What do you think, Jayjg ?
PS: Lothar, please wait for a consensus before doing anything. Renaming an article is not a common thing you can do without asking anyone.
NicDumZ ~ 21:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The literal application of Wikipedia's rules, instead of seeking compliance to their spirit appears to me quite stubborn. It seems that the only goal of some "followers" of the article is to keep the title "Allegation of French Apartheid" even if it is crystal clear that there is NO CONSENSUS on that. If the aim is to give some interesting material about racial problems in France, why fighting so fiercely to keep those four words unchanged?
I want to point one problem arising from the literal application of the rules. The editor who writes an article will always prevail over the editor who disagrees with him in case of stalemate (like in the AFD). Because if their is no consensus over the removal of the article, the article will stay... same for the title.
To me, the [WP:xx] appeals that you brandish all the time are less and less meaningful each time you lead them astray. There is another agenda behind the whole thing and everyone feel it. The continuing strife over that controversial title is doing no good to Wikipedia's credibility...
I strongly support the proposals for renaming. And then, some truly meaningful material may be added to the article (what is France specific treatment of racial problems? how does that country react to the growing immigration pressure? What are the specialists evaluation of the current situation in the suburbs? etc. etc.)
Jeemde 14:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that these "apartheids" have virtually nothing in common except that you have decided to artificially create a connection by calling them all "Allegations of...apartheid". One major difference is that terms like "French apartheid" are completely made up. There is literature on "urban apartheid" or "social exclusion" in France but very little if any referring to "French apartheid" where, on the other hand, the term "Israeli apartheid" or "Israel apartheid" is quite common. Therefore, giving these two articles similar names is completely arbitrary and artificial. The other problem is we're dealing with quite different concepts. Having tourist-only resorts and hotels in Cuba is a completely different concept from the marginalization of Arab immigrants in France or from separating men and women in Saudi Arabia. Just because you have artificially inflicted a name template on these articles doesn't mean they are at all about similar things or that the solution is to give them yet another set of similar names. It might serve your interests in regards to so-called "Israeli apartheid" to have a set of similarly named articles which you argue must all be treated in a cookie cutter fashion but it doesn't serve the interests of an encyclopedia. The most practical and efficient solution is to treat each article on its own mertis and give it the name most appropriate to its content or to the concept it is trying to address, not to impose a manufactured one size fits all template. Lothar of the Hill People 19:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, you are now speaking in bad faith. If a newspaper like l'Humanité (communist) says that "government policies are creating social apartheid" it does not mean that French government is making laws to force people to live in separate place but that the social impact of the new laws (made in favor of the richest) will bring a greater rift between the riches and the poors... That is what they call social apartheid. It is an image to strike the mind of the reader not really an apartheid policy.
I will give an example of the kind of policies that l'Humanite would brand as "social apartheid":
A law called "Loi Gayssot" states that each city over a certain size should build 20% of HLM (Habitation à Loyer Modéré - subsidized housing) in its new construction programs.
Most the rich cities' mayors prefer to pay high fines instead of building subsidized programs bacause their voters are not be delighted to see poor families coming next door.
And some deputies try hard to get that law dumped or reduced to nothing... and it is this kind of action that l'Humanité would brand as social apartheid policy.
http://www.humanite.fr/2007-01-10_Societe_-En-finir-avec-l-apartheid-en-matiere-de-logement
You cannot seriously compare this with South African Apartheid... This is only a scheme.
Jeemde 00:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Jayjg here, for three main reasons, which I'll outline:
As a sidenote, ChrisO, pleease don't abuse your administrator privelleges as you did earlier, to effectively lock dissenting users from editing against you in a page conflict you were involved in.-- Urthogie 00:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
What I understand in Urthogie's intervention is that the author of the article himself knows that there is no actual apartheid in France and admits that "This page is about (in my opinon, false) political allegations and rhetoric, and makes no claim of accuracy to these allegations". The title is then clearly misleading.
Jeemde 07:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the name of this article should remain as is pending a comprehensive solution to the "apartheid" naming issue. I can understand the perspective of those on this page who have not been involved with the "other" articles. I suspect that if I were one of them, I would have a difficult time with this myself. However, this is all unfortunately part of a larger issue. If it is ok to have articles about apartheid or allegations of apartheid outside of the South African context, then this article (regrettably) has enough about that subject to at least meet the minimum standards for an article. As I have said many times, I think it is not ok, that is why I have advocated for "apartheid" to be a "word to avoid" in article titles (excluding South Africa, obviously.) But one country should not be singled out, and renaming this article under the current circumstances would be a step (back) to singling out one country. 6SJ7 17:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I found
Social situation in the French suburbs yesterday ; This article is good, but a bit inaccurate and unbalanced. What about merging the content here into this one ? AoFa is only about Social situation in the French suburbs, isn't it ?
NicDumZ
~
06:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Makes sense to me. Is there anything in this article that doesn't fit in "social situation in the French suburbs"? If not they should be merged. Lothar of the Hill People 07:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of Chinese apartheid, which is another of Urthogie's creations, is currently up for deletion. Editors here may wish to have a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid. -- ChrisO 07:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This POV is invalid. Allegations for French apartheid, doesn't matter how weak, are valid. 10% of total population or more in France are Arabs (diverse ethnic group), and there is this new government's policy enforcing Arab schoolgirls to pretend to be someone else to be allowed to enter a public school. Now, wearing Arafat style headgear is not necessarily a religious symbol, it's tradition. That's enough for the analogy. greg park avenue 15:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The French law prohibiting blatant religious signs in public shool can hardly be considered as apartheid; you can tell that this law impacts the freedom of a part of the population but to qualify it you should consider its aim, not its side effects.
1. This law is not apartheid because the main objective is NOT to separate people because of their religion but to ERASE THE DIFFERENCES between them.
2. This law is not apartheid because it applies to all religions and not only to Islam (jews with the kippas, sikhs with the turbans, christians with big crosses around their necks, etc.). The fact that some religions are more strict than others upon wearing outward signs is a side effect. If the aim was to set an apartheid situation, muslim girls would be bannished from the schools explicitly (this was the case in South Africa, blacks were not allowed in white schools).
3. This law is not apartheid because it has nothing to do about races or origins. A muslim girl can be born in Casablanca, Damasacus or Peshawar as well as in Paris, Lyon or Marseille. It is not the "arabs" or the "blacks" who will be prevented to wear headscarves but all the muslim girls. On the other hand, muslims who are not practicing (they are a lot in France) will not see any change in their life (even if they are arabs or blacks).
3. This law is not apartheid because the girls who really want to keep their veils have the option to go in private schools. Some are more expensive than public schools (not all of them), and they may be far away from home... but this option exists. The teatching is exactly the same (it may even be better) and leads to the same baccalauréat as the public schools. With it, everybody can go in university with or without headscarf (the law only bannish blatant signs from SCHOOL).
4. Would you say that Turkey (a country which is 99% Muslim) is implementing an Apartheid policy over its own population because it bannishes headscarves from ANY school or university?
I do not agree with this French law because it is clearly making the life more difficult for a category of the population: the "believers". And no one can say in good faith that Islam was not the primary target. However, this is not "apartheid".
Of course these explanations will be discarded with disain because they're primary source ;-)
Jeemde 19:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Greg park avenue, there is one thing you should avoid if you want to analyse a situation in any given country: you should never compare one specific situation in that country to the same specific situation in your country… to analyse any single situation in a system you should consider it globally (you can, of course, prefer one SYSTEM to another).
I will give you an example: there are probably no more criminals or crazy people in the US than in France but there is a much higher death toll in the US. Each time a slaughter like “columbine” occurs, people in France wonder why US government does not forbid the sale of war arms. In France, you can only have hunting guns or collection arms and everything has to be registered. Nobody is entitled to have a weapon like an M-16.
French people often have a decided opinion on this, like you do with the “headscarf law”: “This absence of weapon control is the most stupid thing US ever did”; the problem is that French and US system are not at all the same. Even if you are convinced that weapon control is the good solution you should consider the 4th amendment of the US constitution which prevents the federal government to implement such a weapon control, you should try to understand why this amendment exists in the first place and to do that you have to know a little American history.
This is the same for the headscarf law… France is not the US; and integration of the immigrants is not realized the same way.
In the US, it is ok if people keep living in communities as long as the respect the American laws. The immigrants can keep talking their language, wear their traditional clothes, marry in their community, etc.
In France, immigrants are invited to “integrate” the French community; which means becoming like others in their public social life. This is why peoples who band together and strive to keep their traditions are not well accepted in France. The idea is “if they want to live in France, they should try to live like French”
Ideally, immigrants who are ready to integrate French society are the most welcome; and others should only come for a time and then go back to their homeland.
In reality, Blacks and Arabs immigrants already face difficulties to integrate French society because they cannot hide their differences. And the religious signs like the big beard, the Pakistani style clothes or the headscarf make some of them even more alien to the population.
You can discuss what comes first, rejection from the society first and fundamentalism as a result or fundamentalism before rejection from the society but the link exists between the two. And often the headscarf problem does not come alone: more and more girls do not want anymore to attend some courses at school because their family think they are offensive to their religion, women (or their husbands) make scandal in hospitals if there is no woman doctor to examine them and sometime refuse to be treated, etc. etc.
Some people even mutilate their daughters (excision) because it’s a tradition in their country or because they wrongly (this is by no way a prescription from the Quran or any other religion) think this is a religious obligation – and in this case I really think that French law is right to banish such practices.
The real question is where to put the frontier… if you ask a feminist, she will say that headscarves should be utterly banished from all public places including the street; if you ask a Muslim believer, she will say that she has to wear a veil to respect her religion.
French government decided to set a neutral territory in public school. Why there and not at the University? Because it is the time when kids’ minds are very malleable and placed in a “neutral” situation, they may learn that something else exists…
I personally disagree with this law not because of its objective but because it is playing against its own camp… If Muslims, Sikhs, Ultra-orthodox Jews create religious private schools to avoid sending their kids in public schools where they have to get off their headscarves, turbans or kippas, they will not even receive “neutral” teachings as they formerly did.
Jeemde 10:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Greg park avenue, if you were reading what I was writing, you would see that I was precisely NOT criticizing the lack of weapon control in the US (whatever I may think about it); I was telling that one cannot judge this situation in the US without looking at the whole US system. I know that the second amendment of the US constitution guarantee the right of the people to defend themselves (sorry for mistakenly mentionning the 4th one earlier). I know that this amendment is the outcome of that country's specific history.
It is the same thing when you criticize this law in France against blatant religious signs. It is based on that country's specific history.
I see that you do not like my image about the frontier but this is a very sensible one. Some religious or cultural practices can harm people and a State is by no mean obliged to respect these beliefs on its territory. Since the end of slavery, no one is forcing immigrants to come in France... if immigrants want to come they have to respect their hosting country's laws.
The question is where do you put the limit between the freedom of the people and the respect of one country's traditions and social organization?
In France, some people decided that kids from religious families should have a chance to learn what it is to live in a non religious ambiance for a few hours a day during a handful years. These people maybe wrong but you cannot decide this on the ground of what you see in the US.
You do not seem to know that the catholic church was controlling most of the social life in the country until quite a recent time... and it was a very hard struggle for "free thinkers" to bring back religion in the private circle.
Now in France, you are allowed to believe in Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Mahabharata or NOTHING. And this is how this country found its peace after wars of religion between the catholics and the protestants, segregation against the Jews (they were not allowed to practice all the professions prior the French revolution), political turmoil around the place of the Church in the country's intitutions, etc.
Since "1905 law" State and religion are separated in France. This is a founding text. As important for us as your 2nd amendment for you.
And from this law, France invented the concept of "laïcité", which means that public life should not be colonized by religion.
This is why headscarf is a problem in France. Especially since a greater number of muslim girls are deciding to wear it... Greater numbers bring greater concern...
This has nothing to do with a war against Islam. Crusades are over since the XIIIth century... It is just a concern about identity. France is open to immigration as long as this immigration does not change the country too much (and this is a big difference with the US, because the US is a country of immigrants that aggregated inputs from people from all over the world - even if WASP substrate managed to keep the upper hand).
To come back to our main concern, the title of this article, this law cannot be called Apartheid!
BECAUSE:
- a non practicing muslim girl will not be affected by that law
- a practicing muslim girl can go in a private school and get the same studies and diploma as in the public school.
- the muslims girls are free to wear their headscarves at university
- the aim of the law is not to separate people but to make them more alike (you have to know that school is mandatory in France until 16 years old, which means that the girls HAVE TO go to school without their headscarf if they do not find another solution - like private school).
You can be pissed off by this law; you may think it is infringing these girls dignity and freedom; but you cannot call it apartheid.
I am not trying here to defend France, I have said several time that many problems exist in France like racism, social segregation, etc. But it is not true to say that there is Apartheid in its South African meaning in 2007 France. This is the point.
Jeemde 19:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Th point is, not to say the same things twice, because it's not a forum I guess. greg park avenue 02:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The point is that this article is not about French Apartheid, it is Allegations of French apartheid, a sub-article to Allegations of apartheid. All this discussion of whether France practices Apartheid is irrelevant. (BTW, it doesn't.) Andyvphil 09:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_France#Allegations_of_French_apartheid Teofilo talk 09:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
By the same token as the renaming of Allegations of Northern Irish apartheid into Segregation in Northern Ireland (see the renaming diff, with "Neutral title" as comment), how about renaming the present article into Segregation in France and stop focusing on "apartheid". The purpose of Wikipedia is to gather data, not to "call names". The result of gathering sociological or demographical data on an alleged segregation in France might be that France is not more segregated than Britain or the Netherlands. Teofilo talk 09:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the idea of renaming the article to Segregation in France or something along those lines (it affects more than just the suburbs, so I wouldn't limit it just to that). When I renamed the "Allegations of Northern Irish apartheid" as Segregation in Northern Ireland, I had three policy considerations in mind:
1) Whether or not "apartheid" is a word to avoid (currently it isn't), "allegations" certainly is - see WP:WTA#So-called, soi-disant, supposed, alleged, purported. Note in particular the following: "These all share the theme of explicitly making it clear that a given statement is not necessarily factual. This connotation introduces unnecessary bias into the writing; Wikipedia maintains a neutral point of view, and in general, there will be someone out there who will view a given statement as highly probable."
2) Policy requires that article titles comply with NPOV. See WP:NCON#Descriptive names (which, I should mention, I wrote a couple of years ago). This is more complicated than it may seem - the East Sea/ Sea of Japan controversy is a case in point - but the core principle, as set out in WP:NCON, is that article titles should "not carry POV implications". The political term "apartheid" carries enormous POV implications; the sociological term "segregation" does not. When faced with a choice between a POV title and an NPOV one, we must choose the latter.
3) There is nothing in policy - or for that matter in common sense - to support the proposition that fixing one unsatisfactory article has to wait on fixing a separate article. If article A is bad, and article B is bad, the obvious answer is to fix both articles at the first opportunity. The rate of progress may vary between articles, but that's to be expected, because there are different editors and issues involved.
As for the way ahead for this article, I suggest taking the same approach that I adopted with Segregation in Northern Ireland. It needs to be built around a consistent framework, something which this article conspicously lacks. I suggest subdividing it into sections covering social, economic and political segregation. It should be possible to reuse much of the existing content to fill out these subsections, in just the same way that I did with Northern Ireland. -- ChrisO 23:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Who would like to undertake the process of merging the articles now that consensus has been determined? I've done a preliminary merge but it needs to be gone over. Lothar of the Hill People 03:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It is extremely bad etiquette to remove a "merge" tag without discussion (in fact it is against the rules, but I don't feel like wikilawyering). Please do not remove the tag until a consensus develops either way.
If you oppose the proposal, you should discuss in the centralized thread in the {{ mergeto}} article, in this case Allegations of apartheid. I will restore the tagging, and add a note in the correct thread. Thanks!-- Cerejota 00:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Apparently to make the article appear more extensive than it actually is, extensive quotes have been added form single sources. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and attacks all quality principles of wikipedia. If we cleanup the quote farm, which is unnecesary, we are left with a good section for the parent article. Thanks!-- Cerejota 04:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
France maintained colonial rule in the territory which has been described as "quasi-apartheid" this is stupid and totally false. there was no such things as US buses for black and white in algeria, besides algeria was truly part of france as made of département like today corsica. for example muslim children went in public schools with european french kids, i've seen worst apartheids. this view is a simplification by american editors, reads like all mslim in france are from algeria, but this totally false many comes from morroco and tunisia and black africa as well, all of which are former french colony or protectorates, there is not a single word about this. this article is totaly oriented and a mystification this can be seen in "Criticism"'s POV authors selection. this article doesn't exist in other language, don't ask why. Paris By Night 09:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Can we continue this debate after the AFD result comes in? Thanks, -- Urthogie 14:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I think there has been some sort of error. The notes section is an exactly duplicate of the references section in the article. 15 each. The order is slightly different though. I thought it was an intentional error but someone just reverted my fix of it. -- CGM1980 15:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
They are both shorter, and less original researchy.-- Cerejota 12:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I just quote the article :
Tariq Ramadan, a French Muslim,...
But, according to Tariq Ramadan, the man seems to be a Swiss Muslim...
Flying jacket 15:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Since the AfD is over, I think its time to focus on quotefarm (ie quality).
I will just be bold and do my edits. They will be mostly switch sourced material to encyclopedic voice, rather than quotes, whenever possible.
Thanks!-- Cerejota 15:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Calling the french treatment of certain categories of people an "apartheid" is a funny idea, as France is one of the only countries where the nation doesn't recognize "races" (I quote this ugly word) and that gives the very same treatment to all religions. It might be hard to believe for some non-french, but there is absolultely no way to count the amout of french people who are "black" or "white" or "blue" or "green", as this information has no legal existence : it's not on the id card, not on the medical files, it just exists on the police document, along the eyes colour and the existence of tatoos. In a same way, religion is not a public matter, it is something you do at home, like any hobby. It is not possible, therefore, to tell who is a catholic, a jew, a lutherian, a muslim or an atheist, and to count such people. And of course, people love who they want to.
Well my point is that "apartheid" is not racism, it is a legally cristalized racism. Of course, racism exists in France like everywhere in the world (if you want to find a stupid and mean man, just seek for any man, he'll do fine), but it is not organized by the nation. The word "apartheid" is not well-used. But what is the most funny is that this article quotes Tariq Ramadan who is among the people who ask for a real separation between the "communities" even though they don't exist in a legal way : he allegates France to be in the situation of the south african apartheid, but he does all he can to get to that. I see that on the en: article about Ramadan, he is known as a reformer, well he is not known as that here : he is a skillful and hansome proselyt who doesn't say the same things on french mass medias (a french muslim is french before being muslim...) and on the tapes he spreads in the suburbs (...unless it is against the Qran). Basicaly, most of the specialists, like Antoine Sfeir (very famous analyst) think that Tariq Ramadan is a fondamentalist.
Anyways, I hope there will be a way to do anything of that page but for me it is as stupid as if the fr: wikipedia had an article as "Allegations of George Bush being a nazi" : nazism, like apartheid, are well-defined organizations, well defined historic periods, one sometimes use them as insults, because they are strong words, but it is (sorry) a little stupid to use them litterally concerning a contemporary subject.
Jean-no
00:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
This is exactly what I tried to explain during the AFD before being thrown out of the debate by the author of the article himself because I never wrote in other AFDs before (There should be a first time, you know).
Many good arguments were raised against "allegation of French apartheid" but they were considered unconvincing by those who finally decided to keep the article. Most people in favour of "deletion" were classified as biaised French editors who wanted to defend their country's reputation.
I think this appreciation was wrong because many French people like you and me tried to explain that France does not have any legal segregation system but face instead social segregation and racism. These problems are sometime mentionned in a metaphoric way as "social apartheid" (I think this metaphor is inadequate, but THIS SUBJECT could be rightly discussed as THIS OPINION OF MINE IS ONLY AN OPINION).
Admitting France actual problems while denying imaginary ones seems to me to be a balanced approach and a worthy contribution to an encyclopedia.
The fact that blatantly inaccurate articles can survive untouched in Wikipedia is unfortunate. When I will find the time for this, I will maybe add a comment to the article itself (with proper sourcing) to show that NO LEGAL SEGREGATION SYSTEM exists in France.
Jeemde 10:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
“Allegations of French apartheid draw analogies between France and apartheid-era South Africa”
At last, an introductory sentence truly fitting for a serious, reliable encyclopedia ! Thank’s to this budding “Allegations of X country being the new apartheid South-Africa” series, to be followed, hopefully, by “Allegations of personnality X being the new Hitler”, Wikipedia should eventually break away from its previous image as a Pokemon and porn actresses thesaurus. Allow me to pay hommage to the geniuses who initiated this project. Watch your back, EB! Miuki 08:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you-- Victor falk 15:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
About the references, what do you think of these ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Africa_in_the_apartheid_era
"Apartheid (meaning separateness in Afrikaans, cognate to English apart and -hood) was a system of ethnic separation in South Africa from 1948, and was dismantled in a series of negotiations from 1990 to 1993, culminating in democratic elections in 1994.
The rules of Apartheid meant that people were legally classified into a racial group — the main ones being Black, White, Coloured and Indian — and were separated from each other on the basis of the legal classification. Blacks legally became citizens of one of ten bantustans (homelands) that were nominally sovereign nations. These homelands were created out of the territory of Black Reserves founded during the British Empire period -- Reserves akin to United States Indian Reservations, Canadian First Nations reserves, or Australian aboriginal reserves. Many Black South Africans never resided in these "homelands."
This prevented black people from having a vote in "white South Africa" (even if they resided there) -- their voting rights being restricted to the black homelands. Black homelands were economically the least productive areas in the country. Education, medical care, and other public services were segregated, and those available to Black people were inferior. The black education system, within "white South Africa", was designed to prepare blacks to be a working class."
And :
"PREAMBLE
The French people solemnly proclaim their attachment to the Rights of Man and the principles of national sovereignty as defined by the Declaration of 1789, confirmed and complemented by the Preamble to the Constitution of 1946, and to the rights and duties as defined in the Charter for the Environment of 2004.
By virtue of these principles and that of the self-determination of peoples, the Republic offers to the overseas territories that express the will to adhere to them new institutions founded on the common ideal of liberty, equality and fraternity and conceived with a view to their democratic development.
Article 1
France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs. It shall be organised on a decentralised basis."
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp
I do not speak here of discrimination against coloured people, or muslims, which exists in France despite constitutional principles, what I want to point is that post 1958 an official apartheid policy is constitutionally impossible in France.
The problem is that some people use the word apartheid in an improper way to brand all kind of discrimination based on race or religion. Apartheid should only be used if there is a segregationist policy inscribed in the law.
This is obviously not the case in France.
There are a lot of associations for the defence of immigrants (legals or illegals) and they would not let pass any infrigement to the first article of the constitution without making a hell of noise and attacking France before the European Court of Justice (in case the French Parliement and Constitutional Council would let such an unconstitutional bill pass, which is highly unlikely).
Jeemde 10:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Please read WP:OR.-- Cerejota 12:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I am unfamiliar with Wikipedia's rules. As I said previously, I am a newcomer.
However, don't you think that citing "secondary sources" which are blatantly inaccurate to back an article is infriging Wikipedia:Verifiability?
If some people wrongly use a word to speak of a situation (here "apartheid" for French integration and discrimination problems), someone may gather their work and write an article like "allegation of French apartheid" in Wikipedia, based on secondary sources.
And nobody will ever be in position to contradict them because no serious scholar write about "the wrong use of the word apartheid to speak of France integration adn discrimination problems". Nobody does because it is not an issue except on Wikipedia...
The only way to adress the question for people who disagree with the article BECAUSE IT IS GROUNDED ON SOURCES WHICH USE APARTHEID IN AN INACCURATE WAY is to demonstrate this by logic. Which is what I try to do.
If you compare the definition of apartheid to the first article of the French constitution, you can only admit that apartheid is a wrong terminology to brand France's integration problems (which is an existing matter that should be developped in Wikipedia)
Jeemde 13:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to wikipedia then! I will try not to
bite you...
Now, there is a key part about WP:V I love to quote: "Verifiability, not truth." Wikipedia is not about truth, at least not in the sense people usually mean it. It is ultimately about information that is notably, verifiably, and reliably covered by people. This information might be a total lie: however since a notable person, or a notable journal carries, it can be published in wikipedia.
This is because of the well-worn pehenomena of "one man's freedom figther is another one's terrorist". You might think these allegations are utter bollocks, and you might even be right. However, people who are more notable than you are making the allegations. So we have reasons to cover them. Since we cannot engage in original research, we cannot put caveats. The information is as-is. If you have a problem, the write a letter to the editors of Diplo or some such, not to us. We only represent what others say....
I am firmly in the camp of people who are opposed to removal of content. I might support a deletion of blatantly bad content, but in general I am more for merging or keeping content.-- Cerejota 22:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you that Wikipedia cannot remove an article because of somebody's personal opinion. However, I strongly disagree about keeping a total lie in Wikipedia because it is backed by a "more notable sources" than me. A lot of people write bullshit in books or essays... The better examples are the negationists who say that no concentration camp existed during WWII.
Of course, in this case, you will find a lot of studies treating of this phonomenon (the negationism) and decyphering it. This will allow Wikipedia to see what is the truth from what is the lie and at the end, only truth will prevail (which is, I hope the aim of that encyclopedia... otherwise we can stop talking, I will just go away and come back to my Universalis).
But just imagine that we are at the beginning of negationism. One universitarian publishes an article titled "concentration camp are a legend"; a journalist makes a detailed portrait of that book; two other people give a lecture about the exaggeration of the figures commonly admitted for the death toll in German concentration camp, etc. Then someone makes an article in Wikipedia, based on all these "notable sources"... Other people, either shocked by the article, or only ennoyed to see such a lie in their Encyclopedia try to get it modified. But they only have "primary sources" under the hand... they have photos of the camps taken by US liberating army, lists of dead people, witnesses; but they do not have any single article treating about "the negationist phenomenon" (since it was not an issue until then). If this imaginary Wikipedia article was written in a remote place, far from Europe where all these events took place, these people may face the same kind of problems to bring the truth forth. They may hear the same answers: maybe you are right and what says that article is a lie but its sources are more notable than you and we cannot delete them even if you bring evidence (primary sources); you may only want to settle your own agenda.
To come back to the "Allegation of French Apartheid" article, one could argue about the existence of an "apartheid like" system in France during the occupation of Algeria (I am not a specialist of that part of France's history), one can rightly say that France HAD an "apartheid like" system under the regime of Vichy (during WWII), but it is not true that France has an "apartheid like" system nowadays. The first article of the French constitution says that no difference whatsoever can be done between French citizens based on sexes, races and religion, which is the exact opposite of Apartheid.
It would be much more interesting to split that article and merge some part with other subjects (Algeria and Vichy period would fit better in an historic section, while current social problems should have their dedicated article).
Jeemde 11:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, if an "apartheid" is self imposed it is not apartheid.
Apartheid is a political and social system in which the rights of the citizens depend on their race (or religion).
If you have a country like TODAY's France, which says in the first article of its constitution "It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs" you cannot honestly use the word apartheid to describe the problems of racial discrimination, racism and self imposed segregation.
When someone has the French nationality, he or she benefits from all rights and responsabilities linked to it. The problem is that some of these rights are hard to actually achieve (like being elected for a black person), because of racism and intolerance.
I do not try to defend France here, to pretend there is no problems between the communities living there. What I say is that Apartheid is not the right word to speak of these difficulties.
I hope you will see the difference...
Jeemde 09:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The bias is in the title. The title puts one side in a debate on the real topic (the amount and nature of racism in the country in question) on the back foot before the first word of text, and the neutrality of the article cannot be recovered after that catastrophic start. This article sets out to group together a group of slurs under the pretence that together they make an encyclopedic topic. This is no more the case than for "Allegations that French people smell". Or imagine other series of article built around usage of slurs in the media: Allegations that Tony Blair is a liar, Allegations that Angela Merkel is a liar, Allegations that Bill Clinton is a liar, or Allegations that Paris Hilton is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that Lindsay Lohan is a talentless bimbo, Allegations that .... is a talentless bimbo. All of those could be sourced, and the fact that something is sourced does not necessarily make it neutral or a legitimate subject for an encyclopedia. The quoting of sources on any article does not confirm that it complies with Wikipedia:Neutrality to the slightest degree; any biased essay can be fully sourced. No rephrasing or sourcing can make this article anything more than a politically motivated attack page. Wikipedia is not a place for debate or for arguing the toss. The presence of these articles disgraces Wikipedia. Dominictimms 13:48, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to discuus the relevance of this article.
Regardless of the subject or of the neutrality of it, the biggest problem of it to me, is that the whole article looks like a long list of different views of different authors about the subject. It would help a lot (especially about the neutrality problem !) to have a clear and concise article, a synthesis of the ideas which would rely on the different views of the authors.
The problem might come from the title of the article in itself, because allegations sort of refer to a list, but the AfD is over and it was decided that the article will not be renamed. Though i do not agree with that prospective, i'll try to do my best to combine all that quotes in something more simplet and easier to understand.
Also, try not to overquote. Some references are used twice or thrice. The result of this is that it seems that the subject is lacking of serious sources, and that for this reason, you use several times the same quote to make your point. A reader does not need to read thrice a quote for it to make its effect.
NicDumZ 18:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
(I shall say that i absolutely disagree with the existence of that article. The least i can do is to try to correct as much as i can this article)
The fact the the native Algerians under colonial rule have been mistreated and marginalised, taken apart from the native French, coming to exploit the land is true. (see French_rule_in_Algeria#Hegemony of the Colons. but since it is not sourced, i would recommend : fr:Algérie#Époque Coloniale ) Some authors may have, writing about that time, used the word apartheid, and well, i do not discuss that fact.
This is the first difference between the two "apartheids". In Algeria, the law and administrative procedures would ensure that Algerian would have a different status than French colons. Nowadays, people living in the suburbs and those living dans les quartiers chics have the same rights, because they have got the same nationality.
Here is the second difference between the two. In one hand we have a part of a population who is clearly indésirable, neighborhoods are being separated in purpose under cover of false reasons, schools are being closed, resulting in a low proportion of children being educated, as an aim to prevent them from occupying high qualified jobs (Vive la nation!, Yves Lacoste, éd Fayard, 1998). In other hand we have an urbanization plan, as a response to a demographic problem, willing to ensure that all have access to public school and medical care.
We must clearly separate the Algerian apartheid and the urban apartheid. I will apply myself to remove all links between those two different apartheids. I would also suggest that since the Algerian apartheid is already studied in the French rule in Algeria article, we should concentrate only on the urban apartheid. NicDumZ ~ 17:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Still OR. The only thing we can do, unless a seocndary source speaks about it, is provide sourcing abotu they obvious are: allegation of aparheid. Everything else is a novel narrative, not supported by secondary sources, hence OR. Thanks!--
Cerejota
20:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry about the direct quote, didnt see it was one, on the moment. I just did that because social exclusion is not the translation of social apartheid. whatever, i was wrong.
About {{ npov}}, Cerejota removed it because there was {{ ActiveDiscuss}}, which you removed [5]. (I wasn't blaming you)
About Raplh Peters, i don't think that adding references of his work is OR, is it ? Sure, you can discuss the sardonic word. You can say that adding that adding "althought May_1968 was a major turn in french politics" was wrong, but you could have let something like "about May 1968 : ...(quote)", and readers, going to the link, would find the obvious by themselves. And yes please stop saying i'm inventing arguments... "althought May_1968 was a major turn in french politics" is a striking proof of WP:POV I did, but it is WP:V. Just look at the article, De Gaulle had to resign. NicDumZ ~ 07:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
"The problem with this is that no articles were ever wrote about the existence or the non-existence of that link" - I strongly support that sentence...
I am a beginner, right, and I do not know well Wikipedia's rules. But there is one thing which seems important to me : If Wikipedia wants to be considered as an encyclopedia it cannot CREATE subjects which are not existing. And this is the risk if that article is kept as it is.
In our specific case, the journalists or writers used the word apartheid to name a situation which is different. They did that either because they do not know what apartheid really means or because they wanted to summarize in a single word an aspect of the situation (separation of the communities in a country). In this case it is more a "mataphoric use" of the word Apartheid.
The inadequate or metaphoric use of a word loaded by a precise meaning is minor and there is no academic writing over THIS phenomenon.
Then, by following strictly Wikipedia's rules (as stated by Cerjota and Jayig), there is no way to contradict this article (no secondary source), even if a dispassioned scholar, who would use the primary source would come to the conclusion that there is no apartheid (in its real meaning) in nowadays France.
This is a very big flaw in Wikipedia, in my view.
Jeemde 08:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
"We care little if the allegations are true, as long as reliable, verifiable, and notable sources speak about it". In this case, naming Wikipedia an encyclopedia seems to be inappropriate don't you think?
If, when I search for an information in Wikipedia about a topic I am unfamiliar with, I have to do a full scope research and read all the sources (when they are given) to check if this is true or if it is just a compilation of inaccurate material published by "notable" people (who decide they are notable by the way?)I cannot consider anymore Wikipedia as a reliable source.
OK, readers can make their own mind but the aim of Wikipedia should be to give notable AND TRUE information.
Jeemde 17:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Jeemde, you are entirely correct: Wikipedia doesn't consider itself a reliable source under WP:RS, and probably never will.
Encyclopedias have never been meant as the sole source of information about anything, or even authoritative sources, and Wikipedia takes care of sourcing everything in part to allow people to engage a topic more deeply. Even prestigious encyclopedias, like Encyclopedia Britanica are to be handled with care, and are sometimes even less reliable than wikipedia!!! [7] I think that you misunderstand the purpose of general encyclopedias and almanacs in general and of wikipedia in the specific: they are neither the last word, nor authoritative in their own.
However, we do have quality standards, and a set of rules. A good starting point to understand wikipedia is to read the five pillars of wikipedia and then follow the policies into their own pages. Thanks!-- Cerejota 11:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Cerejota, I know that no encyclopedia can be considered as 100% reliable. To see how twisted the reality can be, even in mainstream publications like French "Larousse", one should read an old version of the encyclopedia (I had access to the 1935 edition)... The information you find in it is often a reflection of the time and society in which it has been written.
However, I think that despite their authors' bias, encyclopedias always try to bring the most accurate information to their readers; at least when it come to facts.
Wikipedia is a very interesting project because no national bias can stand for long because the contributors come from all over the world. On the other hand, accuracy of the data cannot be as good because contributors are not always specialists of the field thay are treating (which is quite obvious in the "Allegation of French Apartheid article").
This structural weakness does not mean that the "Wikipedian community" should not strive to give the best information possible to its readers, and try to better the published materials' accuracy.
As long as we talk of opinions: 'can we qualify French rule in Algeria "apartheid"?' or 'is the word "apartheid" rightly used to qualify the current situation in French suburbs?' you can tell me: there are "notable" sources who thinks the answer is yes so it should stay in Wikipedia. The discussion should then be brought on the degree of notability of the sources.
But when we talk of facts, like 1+1=2, there is no place to various interpretations. Facts should be accurately reported and if not they should be deleted.
This article can well be kept in Wikipedia if some people think it is worthy enough, but it should not keep its delusive title. See the facts: apartheid in its precise meaning is a separation of the racial communities set by the law of the country... and France constitution first article makes it impossible in that country.
Let's discuss the "apartheid like" situation in France after saying that apartheid is used in a broader meaning (racial separation) and not in its real meaning.
Jeemde 09:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I see this article was moved to " urban apartheid in France" [8] (and back in a jaygiffy!;).
While this is more correct, the subject it covers is known as commonly known as "exclusion sociale". There is an article on the French wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusion_sociale (eng). While of not so good quality, other related fr.wiki articles are: Banlieues, Le Ghetto français, Politique de la ville en France, Émeutes de 2005 dans les banlieues françaises ( eng 1, eng 2), violences urbaines(a featured article), sociologie urbaine.
I'd be more than happy to help translate and transwiki them, but I think that one who believes that what Racine calls "exclusion sociale" is spelled "allegations of apartheid" by Shakespeare has, pardon my French, lost a couple of marbles in translation(:.. -- Victor falk 19:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Let's change the name of the article to "exclusion sociale" then or whatever is more correct. "Allegations of French apartheid" is a ridiculous title since there is no such term as "French apartheid" and since these aren't "allegations" but an acknowledged social problem. -- LOTHAR
I don't see the need for linkage, the most correct title should apply regardless of conflicts in other articles. --LOTHAR
<irony>Nah we can't change the title, coz' when we type French apartheid in google we have secondary WP:RS that mention the problem.</irony>. Sorry. Seriously, the fact is some authors used that term. And... Well. If they used it, in the views of the creators of this articles, and, sadly, regarding to WP rules, talking about French apartheid is right. I think that the only think you can do if you (we) disagree with the quoted authors is to try to find authors who share your point and to confront all the Point of Views...
But the hard thing, and the problem with the title in my view, is that it must be related, in one way or in another, to the term apartheid ! We can't have a fair article about exclusion because it is entitled allegations of apartheid. Then, all information not linked with apartheid has nothing to do with it. And from that view, since i don't think that we'll find one day an article about how using the term apartheid for describing the social situation in France is maladroit-unfit-exaggerated, the only content that there will ever be in this article will be FOR the thesis of an apartheid in France. We all learned about thesis and anti-thesis in school, I think that maybe the only reason that would justify renaming it would be this one : This title does not allow any possible criticism of the thesis presented in the article.
I think i tried to be fair and moderated on this one, thinking about WP rules, and so on. What do you think, Jayjg ?
PS: Lothar, please wait for a consensus before doing anything. Renaming an article is not a common thing you can do without asking anyone.
NicDumZ ~ 21:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The literal application of Wikipedia's rules, instead of seeking compliance to their spirit appears to me quite stubborn. It seems that the only goal of some "followers" of the article is to keep the title "Allegation of French Apartheid" even if it is crystal clear that there is NO CONSENSUS on that. If the aim is to give some interesting material about racial problems in France, why fighting so fiercely to keep those four words unchanged?
I want to point one problem arising from the literal application of the rules. The editor who writes an article will always prevail over the editor who disagrees with him in case of stalemate (like in the AFD). Because if their is no consensus over the removal of the article, the article will stay... same for the title.
To me, the [WP:xx] appeals that you brandish all the time are less and less meaningful each time you lead them astray. There is another agenda behind the whole thing and everyone feel it. The continuing strife over that controversial title is doing no good to Wikipedia's credibility...
I strongly support the proposals for renaming. And then, some truly meaningful material may be added to the article (what is France specific treatment of racial problems? how does that country react to the growing immigration pressure? What are the specialists evaluation of the current situation in the suburbs? etc. etc.)
Jeemde 14:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that these "apartheids" have virtually nothing in common except that you have decided to artificially create a connection by calling them all "Allegations of...apartheid". One major difference is that terms like "French apartheid" are completely made up. There is literature on "urban apartheid" or "social exclusion" in France but very little if any referring to "French apartheid" where, on the other hand, the term "Israeli apartheid" or "Israel apartheid" is quite common. Therefore, giving these two articles similar names is completely arbitrary and artificial. The other problem is we're dealing with quite different concepts. Having tourist-only resorts and hotels in Cuba is a completely different concept from the marginalization of Arab immigrants in France or from separating men and women in Saudi Arabia. Just because you have artificially inflicted a name template on these articles doesn't mean they are at all about similar things or that the solution is to give them yet another set of similar names. It might serve your interests in regards to so-called "Israeli apartheid" to have a set of similarly named articles which you argue must all be treated in a cookie cutter fashion but it doesn't serve the interests of an encyclopedia. The most practical and efficient solution is to treat each article on its own mertis and give it the name most appropriate to its content or to the concept it is trying to address, not to impose a manufactured one size fits all template. Lothar of the Hill People 19:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg, you are now speaking in bad faith. If a newspaper like l'Humanité (communist) says that "government policies are creating social apartheid" it does not mean that French government is making laws to force people to live in separate place but that the social impact of the new laws (made in favor of the richest) will bring a greater rift between the riches and the poors... That is what they call social apartheid. It is an image to strike the mind of the reader not really an apartheid policy.
I will give an example of the kind of policies that l'Humanite would brand as "social apartheid":
A law called "Loi Gayssot" states that each city over a certain size should build 20% of HLM (Habitation à Loyer Modéré - subsidized housing) in its new construction programs.
Most the rich cities' mayors prefer to pay high fines instead of building subsidized programs bacause their voters are not be delighted to see poor families coming next door.
And some deputies try hard to get that law dumped or reduced to nothing... and it is this kind of action that l'Humanité would brand as social apartheid policy.
http://www.humanite.fr/2007-01-10_Societe_-En-finir-avec-l-apartheid-en-matiere-de-logement
You cannot seriously compare this with South African Apartheid... This is only a scheme.
Jeemde 00:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Jayjg here, for three main reasons, which I'll outline:
As a sidenote, ChrisO, pleease don't abuse your administrator privelleges as you did earlier, to effectively lock dissenting users from editing against you in a page conflict you were involved in.-- Urthogie 00:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
What I understand in Urthogie's intervention is that the author of the article himself knows that there is no actual apartheid in France and admits that "This page is about (in my opinon, false) political allegations and rhetoric, and makes no claim of accuracy to these allegations". The title is then clearly misleading.
Jeemde 07:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the name of this article should remain as is pending a comprehensive solution to the "apartheid" naming issue. I can understand the perspective of those on this page who have not been involved with the "other" articles. I suspect that if I were one of them, I would have a difficult time with this myself. However, this is all unfortunately part of a larger issue. If it is ok to have articles about apartheid or allegations of apartheid outside of the South African context, then this article (regrettably) has enough about that subject to at least meet the minimum standards for an article. As I have said many times, I think it is not ok, that is why I have advocated for "apartheid" to be a "word to avoid" in article titles (excluding South Africa, obviously.) But one country should not be singled out, and renaming this article under the current circumstances would be a step (back) to singling out one country. 6SJ7 17:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I found
Social situation in the French suburbs yesterday ; This article is good, but a bit inaccurate and unbalanced. What about merging the content here into this one ? AoFa is only about Social situation in the French suburbs, isn't it ?
NicDumZ
~
06:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Makes sense to me. Is there anything in this article that doesn't fit in "social situation in the French suburbs"? If not they should be merged. Lothar of the Hill People 07:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Allegations of Chinese apartheid, which is another of Urthogie's creations, is currently up for deletion. Editors here may wish to have a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid. -- ChrisO 07:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This POV is invalid. Allegations for French apartheid, doesn't matter how weak, are valid. 10% of total population or more in France are Arabs (diverse ethnic group), and there is this new government's policy enforcing Arab schoolgirls to pretend to be someone else to be allowed to enter a public school. Now, wearing Arafat style headgear is not necessarily a religious symbol, it's tradition. That's enough for the analogy. greg park avenue 15:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The French law prohibiting blatant religious signs in public shool can hardly be considered as apartheid; you can tell that this law impacts the freedom of a part of the population but to qualify it you should consider its aim, not its side effects.
1. This law is not apartheid because the main objective is NOT to separate people because of their religion but to ERASE THE DIFFERENCES between them.
2. This law is not apartheid because it applies to all religions and not only to Islam (jews with the kippas, sikhs with the turbans, christians with big crosses around their necks, etc.). The fact that some religions are more strict than others upon wearing outward signs is a side effect. If the aim was to set an apartheid situation, muslim girls would be bannished from the schools explicitly (this was the case in South Africa, blacks were not allowed in white schools).
3. This law is not apartheid because it has nothing to do about races or origins. A muslim girl can be born in Casablanca, Damasacus or Peshawar as well as in Paris, Lyon or Marseille. It is not the "arabs" or the "blacks" who will be prevented to wear headscarves but all the muslim girls. On the other hand, muslims who are not practicing (they are a lot in France) will not see any change in their life (even if they are arabs or blacks).
3. This law is not apartheid because the girls who really want to keep their veils have the option to go in private schools. Some are more expensive than public schools (not all of them), and they may be far away from home... but this option exists. The teatching is exactly the same (it may even be better) and leads to the same baccalauréat as the public schools. With it, everybody can go in university with or without headscarf (the law only bannish blatant signs from SCHOOL).
4. Would you say that Turkey (a country which is 99% Muslim) is implementing an Apartheid policy over its own population because it bannishes headscarves from ANY school or university?
I do not agree with this French law because it is clearly making the life more difficult for a category of the population: the "believers". And no one can say in good faith that Islam was not the primary target. However, this is not "apartheid".
Of course these explanations will be discarded with disain because they're primary source ;-)
Jeemde 19:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Greg park avenue, there is one thing you should avoid if you want to analyse a situation in any given country: you should never compare one specific situation in that country to the same specific situation in your country… to analyse any single situation in a system you should consider it globally (you can, of course, prefer one SYSTEM to another).
I will give you an example: there are probably no more criminals or crazy people in the US than in France but there is a much higher death toll in the US. Each time a slaughter like “columbine” occurs, people in France wonder why US government does not forbid the sale of war arms. In France, you can only have hunting guns or collection arms and everything has to be registered. Nobody is entitled to have a weapon like an M-16.
French people often have a decided opinion on this, like you do with the “headscarf law”: “This absence of weapon control is the most stupid thing US ever did”; the problem is that French and US system are not at all the same. Even if you are convinced that weapon control is the good solution you should consider the 4th amendment of the US constitution which prevents the federal government to implement such a weapon control, you should try to understand why this amendment exists in the first place and to do that you have to know a little American history.
This is the same for the headscarf law… France is not the US; and integration of the immigrants is not realized the same way.
In the US, it is ok if people keep living in communities as long as the respect the American laws. The immigrants can keep talking their language, wear their traditional clothes, marry in their community, etc.
In France, immigrants are invited to “integrate” the French community; which means becoming like others in their public social life. This is why peoples who band together and strive to keep their traditions are not well accepted in France. The idea is “if they want to live in France, they should try to live like French”
Ideally, immigrants who are ready to integrate French society are the most welcome; and others should only come for a time and then go back to their homeland.
In reality, Blacks and Arabs immigrants already face difficulties to integrate French society because they cannot hide their differences. And the religious signs like the big beard, the Pakistani style clothes or the headscarf make some of them even more alien to the population.
You can discuss what comes first, rejection from the society first and fundamentalism as a result or fundamentalism before rejection from the society but the link exists between the two. And often the headscarf problem does not come alone: more and more girls do not want anymore to attend some courses at school because their family think they are offensive to their religion, women (or their husbands) make scandal in hospitals if there is no woman doctor to examine them and sometime refuse to be treated, etc. etc.
Some people even mutilate their daughters (excision) because it’s a tradition in their country or because they wrongly (this is by no way a prescription from the Quran or any other religion) think this is a religious obligation – and in this case I really think that French law is right to banish such practices.
The real question is where to put the frontier… if you ask a feminist, she will say that headscarves should be utterly banished from all public places including the street; if you ask a Muslim believer, she will say that she has to wear a veil to respect her religion.
French government decided to set a neutral territory in public school. Why there and not at the University? Because it is the time when kids’ minds are very malleable and placed in a “neutral” situation, they may learn that something else exists…
I personally disagree with this law not because of its objective but because it is playing against its own camp… If Muslims, Sikhs, Ultra-orthodox Jews create religious private schools to avoid sending their kids in public schools where they have to get off their headscarves, turbans or kippas, they will not even receive “neutral” teachings as they formerly did.
Jeemde 10:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Greg park avenue, if you were reading what I was writing, you would see that I was precisely NOT criticizing the lack of weapon control in the US (whatever I may think about it); I was telling that one cannot judge this situation in the US without looking at the whole US system. I know that the second amendment of the US constitution guarantee the right of the people to defend themselves (sorry for mistakenly mentionning the 4th one earlier). I know that this amendment is the outcome of that country's specific history.
It is the same thing when you criticize this law in France against blatant religious signs. It is based on that country's specific history.
I see that you do not like my image about the frontier but this is a very sensible one. Some religious or cultural practices can harm people and a State is by no mean obliged to respect these beliefs on its territory. Since the end of slavery, no one is forcing immigrants to come in France... if immigrants want to come they have to respect their hosting country's laws.
The question is where do you put the limit between the freedom of the people and the respect of one country's traditions and social organization?
In France, some people decided that kids from religious families should have a chance to learn what it is to live in a non religious ambiance for a few hours a day during a handful years. These people maybe wrong but you cannot decide this on the ground of what you see in the US.
You do not seem to know that the catholic church was controlling most of the social life in the country until quite a recent time... and it was a very hard struggle for "free thinkers" to bring back religion in the private circle.
Now in France, you are allowed to believe in Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Mahabharata or NOTHING. And this is how this country found its peace after wars of religion between the catholics and the protestants, segregation against the Jews (they were not allowed to practice all the professions prior the French revolution), political turmoil around the place of the Church in the country's intitutions, etc.
Since "1905 law" State and religion are separated in France. This is a founding text. As important for us as your 2nd amendment for you.
And from this law, France invented the concept of "laïcité", which means that public life should not be colonized by religion.
This is why headscarf is a problem in France. Especially since a greater number of muslim girls are deciding to wear it... Greater numbers bring greater concern...
This has nothing to do with a war against Islam. Crusades are over since the XIIIth century... It is just a concern about identity. France is open to immigration as long as this immigration does not change the country too much (and this is a big difference with the US, because the US is a country of immigrants that aggregated inputs from people from all over the world - even if WASP substrate managed to keep the upper hand).
To come back to our main concern, the title of this article, this law cannot be called Apartheid!
BECAUSE:
- a non practicing muslim girl will not be affected by that law
- a practicing muslim girl can go in a private school and get the same studies and diploma as in the public school.
- the muslims girls are free to wear their headscarves at university
- the aim of the law is not to separate people but to make them more alike (you have to know that school is mandatory in France until 16 years old, which means that the girls HAVE TO go to school without their headscarf if they do not find another solution - like private school).
You can be pissed off by this law; you may think it is infringing these girls dignity and freedom; but you cannot call it apartheid.
I am not trying here to defend France, I have said several time that many problems exist in France like racism, social segregation, etc. But it is not true to say that there is Apartheid in its South African meaning in 2007 France. This is the point.
Jeemde 19:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Th point is, not to say the same things twice, because it's not a forum I guess. greg park avenue 02:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
The point is that this article is not about French Apartheid, it is Allegations of French apartheid, a sub-article to Allegations of apartheid. All this discussion of whether France practices Apartheid is irrelevant. (BTW, it doesn't.) Andyvphil 09:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_France#Allegations_of_French_apartheid Teofilo talk 09:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
By the same token as the renaming of Allegations of Northern Irish apartheid into Segregation in Northern Ireland (see the renaming diff, with "Neutral title" as comment), how about renaming the present article into Segregation in France and stop focusing on "apartheid". The purpose of Wikipedia is to gather data, not to "call names". The result of gathering sociological or demographical data on an alleged segregation in France might be that France is not more segregated than Britain or the Netherlands. Teofilo talk 09:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the idea of renaming the article to Segregation in France or something along those lines (it affects more than just the suburbs, so I wouldn't limit it just to that). When I renamed the "Allegations of Northern Irish apartheid" as Segregation in Northern Ireland, I had three policy considerations in mind:
1) Whether or not "apartheid" is a word to avoid (currently it isn't), "allegations" certainly is - see WP:WTA#So-called, soi-disant, supposed, alleged, purported. Note in particular the following: "These all share the theme of explicitly making it clear that a given statement is not necessarily factual. This connotation introduces unnecessary bias into the writing; Wikipedia maintains a neutral point of view, and in general, there will be someone out there who will view a given statement as highly probable."
2) Policy requires that article titles comply with NPOV. See WP:NCON#Descriptive names (which, I should mention, I wrote a couple of years ago). This is more complicated than it may seem - the East Sea/ Sea of Japan controversy is a case in point - but the core principle, as set out in WP:NCON, is that article titles should "not carry POV implications". The political term "apartheid" carries enormous POV implications; the sociological term "segregation" does not. When faced with a choice between a POV title and an NPOV one, we must choose the latter.
3) There is nothing in policy - or for that matter in common sense - to support the proposition that fixing one unsatisfactory article has to wait on fixing a separate article. If article A is bad, and article B is bad, the obvious answer is to fix both articles at the first opportunity. The rate of progress may vary between articles, but that's to be expected, because there are different editors and issues involved.
As for the way ahead for this article, I suggest taking the same approach that I adopted with Segregation in Northern Ireland. It needs to be built around a consistent framework, something which this article conspicously lacks. I suggest subdividing it into sections covering social, economic and political segregation. It should be possible to reuse much of the existing content to fill out these subsections, in just the same way that I did with Northern Ireland. -- ChrisO 23:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Who would like to undertake the process of merging the articles now that consensus has been determined? I've done a preliminary merge but it needs to be gone over. Lothar of the Hill People 03:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)