Hi, can someone please explain the jargon a bit on the article? I looked at the dictionary and "blue-collar"
"white collar":
I guess that's not what the article refers to. If it is, that's a very vague thing to say. With these definitions, an engineer who works in a nuclear plant will probably wear "protective clothing", so I guess he/she is "white collar", but someone who works in a bar will probably be "blue-collar"...
And also the terms "lower-class", "middle-class", "lower middle", "upper-middle" etc. We don't use a similar system in Israel, so can anyone rewrite that more precise, demographical terms? say "income in the lowest 20%", "income in the highest 5%" etc? -- Rotem Dan 15:30 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The article is about the social structure of the United States, not Israel. The classes I used are found in almost any elementary sociology text. My lumping together of blue-collar and wage earning white-collar workers together a the working class is my only novel addition, but is generally in line with labor union organizing practices, eg. the teachers union, or AFSME. (American Federation of State and Municipal Employees)
Fred Bauder 03:40 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Fred, great article. My only quibble is that your percentages add up to 111%.
(I guess you meant that some of these groups overlap, but it wasn't clear from the article text.)
Shall we say that 30% are middle class are above? And that 10% are upper-middle or upper? That would make the math come out right.
Uncle Ed 16:50 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I object to the first paragraph of the article. Recent studies have shown that the US has one of the _lowest_ levels of income mobility (and also income inequality) among advanced democracies (lost the link; I'd make the change myself if I had the data). And please don't give me artsy-fartsy social prestige BS. Income mobility can be measured, and it is often measured... less so for the other components.
In particular... barriers to income mobility in the US include: massively iequablity in government spending at the local level (police protection and schools are funded locally, where there are huge and persisting differences); persistant regressive taxation at the local and state levels, and increasing regressive taxation at the federal level; low levels of social spending to break cycles of poverty, and latent racism in the level of social spending (proportionately, the more blacks there are in a state, the lower the level of social spending), etc.
If I have time, I'll find the necessary links and make the changes...
Speaking of links, here's one of the first 3 links I found in a google search on "income mobility": http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-mobility.htm
It contains a chart which shows that in less than ten years, 80% of people in the bottom quintile moved up it least one quintile!! And over 30% of those in either the 2nd or 3rd quintile also moved up a quintle! The curious thing about the webpage cited is that it's actually a liberal argument trying to prove just what anonymous above was saying: that there's not enough income mobility. Yet, as I myself interpret the supplied chart, there seems to be quite a bit of income mobility. What do they want, rags to riches in a single year? -- Uncle Ed 22:16 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Interesting, but who replaced that 80% who moved out of the bottom quintile? (after all, by definition, that is the bottom 20%). Fred Bauder 03:40 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Thank you all for your interest and comments. Fred Bauder 03:40 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I think this article needs a total rewrite. The class definitions it uses are not the same as the ones that I see being used around me (in America). It seems to use a similar definition as the used in history textbooks to define middle-ages class structures (i.e. middle-class = shopkeepers), with a the addition of some modern class jargon (blue-collar/white-collar). I'm very skeptical of the claim that 70% of Americans are working class, the majority of Americans probably consider themselves to be in some subdivision of middle class, and relatively few identifying themselves as either working class or upper class.
A better rough "guide" to American class structure probably would be more like this: the poor are the lower class, blue-collar workers are lower-middle class, white-collar workers are (middle-) middle class, professionals are upper-middle class, and the rich are upper class. This is only a guide, because class is not at the forefront of most Americans' minds, so classes are arbitrary, ill defined, and porous.
-My User Name
Yes, I have heard that one survey established that 26% of the US population believes that they are in the top 5% in income and another 23% believes they will be. Politicians of both major parties refer to to anyone that makes $30,000 or more and owns a home as middle-class, in fact working class is hardly used in public dialogue. But this article is not the result of a survey asking what people consider themselves. The relevant question is: Does the group of people earn their major support from work or from investment of capital?. If their major source of income is wages or salary they are working class. If a significant portion of their income comes from investment of capital they are middle class (really in my scheme upper class). The source for this kind of discription of class structure lies in sociology. Fred Bauder 22:31 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Isn't more likely that someone would consult an article such as this to understand public dialogue than to learn the result of applying someone's strict definition of economic class onto Americans? You're right, the term "working class" is hardly ever used, so why define 70% of the population into it? Doing that only confuses things. When one speaks of the middle class in America, they're likely to be referring to "anyone that makes $30,000 or more and owns a home" not just professionals and business owners. Economic class is rarely a topic outside of public dialogue in America, so you should use the same terms it uses, or as close of ones as possible, to describe it. I'm not saying that you should base this off of what people think, like an opinion poll, but you should use the terms as generally understood in America. That basically means that the middle class swallows up most of your middle class along with most of your working class.
-- My User Name
"Understanding public dialogue" is an aspect of American popular culture, perhaps this could be worked into that article. (As you edited the article, an American describing America would describe almost all working people as "middle class"). Certainly a politician running for office would not be wise to describe either the social structure of the United States or the American system of government in an objective manner should she hope to be elected. Fred Bauder 11:27 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Culture is a better term for it. Culture of the United States touches on the reasons for this definition (equality ideal). American popular culture is a category that I'd place things like Survivor and The Simpsons, not how a culture views itself.
-- my user name
Whatever the mob believes is popular culture. Fred Bauder 17:41 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
It's "the mob" that defines a culture, it is not defined academics and the elite. I'm changing those links back.
-- my user name
Wicked my user name!! When you "change the links back" you need to respect the other edits which have occured in the meantime, not simply revert back to the last edit you made. On the matter in hand, I will try to get to the popular culture article and make it a meaningful link. As to your comment 'It's "the mob" that defines a culture, it is not defined academics and the elite', American culture consists of our best academic efforts and the imput of our elites as well as the populist view of things. The notion that you can simply ignore more sophisticated views or that somehow knowledge is to be filtered through majority vote is not suitable for encyclopedia contributions however well it may go over in talk radio. Fred Bauder 11:52 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)
While "popular culture" may be more precise, on the technical level (it's a popular cultural belief, therefore it's popular culture!), I think culture is the more correct term. There's a value judgement inherent in labeling something a being popular culture; it says that it is part of the "less valuable" component of a culture, so there's a NPOV issue. Also, this American belief that the middle class* includes most Americans is prevalent throughout the entire society, from top to bottom, not just in "the mob."
Vanu 06:44 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
this article is very biased and pro-american. Why not full discussion of america's poverty, poor health care, extreme rich and poor? Is this from American CIA book I see quoted so often on wikipidia? Why not Honduran, Hiaitan, British, Argentine yearbook used, just american, all over? This needs total rewriting to add balance. Maybe I come back to it tomorrow and begin changes?
213.202.165.161
Gee, I was afraid it would be criticized for being very biased and anti-American. But let's see your stuff.... Fred Bauder 17:41 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Given that the audience of this article will likely *not* be familiar with or expecting the neo-Marxist class breakdown featured here (with "working class" being separate from "middle class") shouldn't this terminology either be explained or changed to suit the audience. Also, in this post-socialist age, is a mention of "petty Bourgeoisie" or any explicit use of Marxist jargon even appropriate? -- Bkalafut 07:31, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You would go too far. However I would agree that this article can be fairly be described as original research. Fred Bauder 14:27, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
I would agree that the specific class formulations in this article are inappropriate. This is not an issue of agreeing or disagreeing with this particular variety of neo-Marxist analysis, but this is very much something that by NPOV standard should be designated as a "minority viewpoint." Seventy percent of the United States as working class? Not in any conventional sociology textbook. Also, the divisions of the middle class are unconventional and do not correlate terribly well to how they would normally be described, though "upper-middle" is closer than "lower-middle." I would have to agree that this article needs a pretty thorough rewrite. The one thing I would say that is a bit extreme is the notion that "class" is not a relevant point to begin -- we have to begin somwhere, and I think that virtually everyone can agree that class is a meaningful concept with pracitcal implications. If you don't begin with this stipulation, you get into far more complicated issues that are, quite frankly, beyond the scope of this article and a bit crank-ish. It's like starting an article on the structure of the atom by questioning whether or not neutron exist. Maybe everyone is wrong and they don't, but there must be some sort of reasonable point of departure. --Chris
In reference to the comment referring to income mobility in the USA, you cited that 80% of people in the bottom quintile move at least one quintile within a year -- quintiles, however, reflect a relative position, not income...if 80% of the people in the bottom quintile retained the same income level, which was below subistence, but the quintile above (let's say, due to the decline of an industry and the massive loss of jobs) rapidly declined in income, then chances are that large numbers of people from the bottom quintile would no longer be in that quintile, although that doesn't necessarily mean an increase in income. In fact, the 'quintile mobility' which you quoted, indicating higher income mobility near the bottom of the chain, reflects the USA's current economic slump.
-denny
There are two articles about this topic, this and Class in the contemporary United States. I think they should be merged in some way.
Generally, I think the article is sound, but it overlooks some of the persistent difficulties facing anyone who wants to paint a comprehensive picture of America's class structure. I'm an historian, not a sociologist, but I'd like to have a go at it:
-- bamjd3d 1346 PST 2 July 2005
http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-mobility.htm doesn't work.
I am deleting the Class and political leaning section. It cites absolutly no sources (not a single source is cited). Also, liberals/ conservatives as defined in section have a US-centric bias, liberals actually support capitalism. Also, left as defined in this article may refer more to econoic views, or to moral issuses, the section is not clear about that. This article is about an important topic, and recent minor political trends in certain regions do not merit inclusion in an important article. Therefore, this section does not merit inclusion in this article and should be removed. 72.139.119.165 00:55, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The traditional assumption of 20th century political theorists (particularly those examining the United States) has been that upper-class individuals will tend to be more conservative while lower-class individuals are more liberal. In this paradigm, conservatism would tend toward opposing greater social mobility and distribution of wealth, while liberalism would support an expanded welfare state. By the late 20th century and early 21st century, there is evidence that this correlation has reversed: upper-class individuals may be more likely to be liberal or leftist in their politics. There are several possible theories for this reversal:
This reversal is probably less statistically significant than some may think, because conservatives on average are better paid than liberals. Also, there is evidence which shows that wealthy neighborhoods are more likely to vote conservatively than liberally. What may be evident, however, is the reality of the "limousine liberal," a grouping of extremely wealthy people who tend toward Left views, particularly, in the stereotype, among members of the Hollywood culture. Statistically, the reality seems to be a division among both the wealthy and the less wealthy. Portions of both groups are conservative, while portions are liberal. Many less-wealthy, and therefore less-educated, people are attracted to conservative politics because of their traditional cultural and social attitudes, while other less-wealthy and less-educated individuals are attracted to liberalism in the hope to achieving greater social equality. Among the more wealthy, some associate education and open-mindedness with the welfare state and social justice programs espoused by liberal political movements, while others among the wealthy tend to hold to a more traditionalist viewpoint, some in the attempt (consciously or unconsciously) to retain their high socio-economic position; the latter view paradigm of the attitudes of the wealthy is particularly stereotypical. Some correlations also exist in various wings of religious affiliations, either replacing class as a primary factor, or in addition to class.
I can't tell what approach is being used. It seems more like a political piece, I guess. Maybe the name should be changed. The name makes it sound like a formal academic topic in sociology. ABSmyth 22:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The sentence "The contemporary United States has only one legally-recognized social class, actually a caste, of illegal immigrants ( euphemistically called "undocumented workers") numbering some 12 million." has come into question. The question is not whether it is true, but whether it can be shown to have a basis in a reliable source. This large group of people have a different legal status from the rest of the population, that is they have different, generally inferior legal rights, for example, they are not allowed to work. That they do work, after producing forged documents, is only confirmation of their status. Fred Bauder 21:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
A legally established group of people is the very definition of class. Consider the nobility, the clergy and the commoners of pre-revolutionary France, the Estates of the realm. Fred Bauder 00:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
On August 29th I started a re-write that led to more than 75% of the article being re-written in late August and early September. Best Regards, Signature brendel HAPPY HOLIDAYS 21:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, can someone please explain the jargon a bit on the article? I looked at the dictionary and "blue-collar"
"white collar":
I guess that's not what the article refers to. If it is, that's a very vague thing to say. With these definitions, an engineer who works in a nuclear plant will probably wear "protective clothing", so I guess he/she is "white collar", but someone who works in a bar will probably be "blue-collar"...
And also the terms "lower-class", "middle-class", "lower middle", "upper-middle" etc. We don't use a similar system in Israel, so can anyone rewrite that more precise, demographical terms? say "income in the lowest 20%", "income in the highest 5%" etc? -- Rotem Dan 15:30 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The article is about the social structure of the United States, not Israel. The classes I used are found in almost any elementary sociology text. My lumping together of blue-collar and wage earning white-collar workers together a the working class is my only novel addition, but is generally in line with labor union organizing practices, eg. the teachers union, or AFSME. (American Federation of State and Municipal Employees)
Fred Bauder 03:40 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Fred, great article. My only quibble is that your percentages add up to 111%.
(I guess you meant that some of these groups overlap, but it wasn't clear from the article text.)
Shall we say that 30% are middle class are above? And that 10% are upper-middle or upper? That would make the math come out right.
Uncle Ed 16:50 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I object to the first paragraph of the article. Recent studies have shown that the US has one of the _lowest_ levels of income mobility (and also income inequality) among advanced democracies (lost the link; I'd make the change myself if I had the data). And please don't give me artsy-fartsy social prestige BS. Income mobility can be measured, and it is often measured... less so for the other components.
In particular... barriers to income mobility in the US include: massively iequablity in government spending at the local level (police protection and schools are funded locally, where there are huge and persisting differences); persistant regressive taxation at the local and state levels, and increasing regressive taxation at the federal level; low levels of social spending to break cycles of poverty, and latent racism in the level of social spending (proportionately, the more blacks there are in a state, the lower the level of social spending), etc.
If I have time, I'll find the necessary links and make the changes...
Speaking of links, here's one of the first 3 links I found in a google search on "income mobility": http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-mobility.htm
It contains a chart which shows that in less than ten years, 80% of people in the bottom quintile moved up it least one quintile!! And over 30% of those in either the 2nd or 3rd quintile also moved up a quintle! The curious thing about the webpage cited is that it's actually a liberal argument trying to prove just what anonymous above was saying: that there's not enough income mobility. Yet, as I myself interpret the supplied chart, there seems to be quite a bit of income mobility. What do they want, rags to riches in a single year? -- Uncle Ed 22:16 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Interesting, but who replaced that 80% who moved out of the bottom quintile? (after all, by definition, that is the bottom 20%). Fred Bauder 03:40 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Thank you all for your interest and comments. Fred Bauder 03:40 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I think this article needs a total rewrite. The class definitions it uses are not the same as the ones that I see being used around me (in America). It seems to use a similar definition as the used in history textbooks to define middle-ages class structures (i.e. middle-class = shopkeepers), with a the addition of some modern class jargon (blue-collar/white-collar). I'm very skeptical of the claim that 70% of Americans are working class, the majority of Americans probably consider themselves to be in some subdivision of middle class, and relatively few identifying themselves as either working class or upper class.
A better rough "guide" to American class structure probably would be more like this: the poor are the lower class, blue-collar workers are lower-middle class, white-collar workers are (middle-) middle class, professionals are upper-middle class, and the rich are upper class. This is only a guide, because class is not at the forefront of most Americans' minds, so classes are arbitrary, ill defined, and porous.
-My User Name
Yes, I have heard that one survey established that 26% of the US population believes that they are in the top 5% in income and another 23% believes they will be. Politicians of both major parties refer to to anyone that makes $30,000 or more and owns a home as middle-class, in fact working class is hardly used in public dialogue. But this article is not the result of a survey asking what people consider themselves. The relevant question is: Does the group of people earn their major support from work or from investment of capital?. If their major source of income is wages or salary they are working class. If a significant portion of their income comes from investment of capital they are middle class (really in my scheme upper class). The source for this kind of discription of class structure lies in sociology. Fred Bauder 22:31 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Isn't more likely that someone would consult an article such as this to understand public dialogue than to learn the result of applying someone's strict definition of economic class onto Americans? You're right, the term "working class" is hardly ever used, so why define 70% of the population into it? Doing that only confuses things. When one speaks of the middle class in America, they're likely to be referring to "anyone that makes $30,000 or more and owns a home" not just professionals and business owners. Economic class is rarely a topic outside of public dialogue in America, so you should use the same terms it uses, or as close of ones as possible, to describe it. I'm not saying that you should base this off of what people think, like an opinion poll, but you should use the terms as generally understood in America. That basically means that the middle class swallows up most of your middle class along with most of your working class.
-- My User Name
"Understanding public dialogue" is an aspect of American popular culture, perhaps this could be worked into that article. (As you edited the article, an American describing America would describe almost all working people as "middle class"). Certainly a politician running for office would not be wise to describe either the social structure of the United States or the American system of government in an objective manner should she hope to be elected. Fred Bauder 11:27 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Culture is a better term for it. Culture of the United States touches on the reasons for this definition (equality ideal). American popular culture is a category that I'd place things like Survivor and The Simpsons, not how a culture views itself.
-- my user name
Whatever the mob believes is popular culture. Fred Bauder 17:41 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
It's "the mob" that defines a culture, it is not defined academics and the elite. I'm changing those links back.
-- my user name
Wicked my user name!! When you "change the links back" you need to respect the other edits which have occured in the meantime, not simply revert back to the last edit you made. On the matter in hand, I will try to get to the popular culture article and make it a meaningful link. As to your comment 'It's "the mob" that defines a culture, it is not defined academics and the elite', American culture consists of our best academic efforts and the imput of our elites as well as the populist view of things. The notion that you can simply ignore more sophisticated views or that somehow knowledge is to be filtered through majority vote is not suitable for encyclopedia contributions however well it may go over in talk radio. Fred Bauder 11:52 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)
While "popular culture" may be more precise, on the technical level (it's a popular cultural belief, therefore it's popular culture!), I think culture is the more correct term. There's a value judgement inherent in labeling something a being popular culture; it says that it is part of the "less valuable" component of a culture, so there's a NPOV issue. Also, this American belief that the middle class* includes most Americans is prevalent throughout the entire society, from top to bottom, not just in "the mob."
Vanu 06:44 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)
this article is very biased and pro-american. Why not full discussion of america's poverty, poor health care, extreme rich and poor? Is this from American CIA book I see quoted so often on wikipidia? Why not Honduran, Hiaitan, British, Argentine yearbook used, just american, all over? This needs total rewriting to add balance. Maybe I come back to it tomorrow and begin changes?
213.202.165.161
Gee, I was afraid it would be criticized for being very biased and anti-American. But let's see your stuff.... Fred Bauder 17:41 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Given that the audience of this article will likely *not* be familiar with or expecting the neo-Marxist class breakdown featured here (with "working class" being separate from "middle class") shouldn't this terminology either be explained or changed to suit the audience. Also, in this post-socialist age, is a mention of "petty Bourgeoisie" or any explicit use of Marxist jargon even appropriate? -- Bkalafut 07:31, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You would go too far. However I would agree that this article can be fairly be described as original research. Fred Bauder 14:27, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
I would agree that the specific class formulations in this article are inappropriate. This is not an issue of agreeing or disagreeing with this particular variety of neo-Marxist analysis, but this is very much something that by NPOV standard should be designated as a "minority viewpoint." Seventy percent of the United States as working class? Not in any conventional sociology textbook. Also, the divisions of the middle class are unconventional and do not correlate terribly well to how they would normally be described, though "upper-middle" is closer than "lower-middle." I would have to agree that this article needs a pretty thorough rewrite. The one thing I would say that is a bit extreme is the notion that "class" is not a relevant point to begin -- we have to begin somwhere, and I think that virtually everyone can agree that class is a meaningful concept with pracitcal implications. If you don't begin with this stipulation, you get into far more complicated issues that are, quite frankly, beyond the scope of this article and a bit crank-ish. It's like starting an article on the structure of the atom by questioning whether or not neutron exist. Maybe everyone is wrong and they don't, but there must be some sort of reasonable point of departure. --Chris
In reference to the comment referring to income mobility in the USA, you cited that 80% of people in the bottom quintile move at least one quintile within a year -- quintiles, however, reflect a relative position, not income...if 80% of the people in the bottom quintile retained the same income level, which was below subistence, but the quintile above (let's say, due to the decline of an industry and the massive loss of jobs) rapidly declined in income, then chances are that large numbers of people from the bottom quintile would no longer be in that quintile, although that doesn't necessarily mean an increase in income. In fact, the 'quintile mobility' which you quoted, indicating higher income mobility near the bottom of the chain, reflects the USA's current economic slump.
-denny
There are two articles about this topic, this and Class in the contemporary United States. I think they should be merged in some way.
Generally, I think the article is sound, but it overlooks some of the persistent difficulties facing anyone who wants to paint a comprehensive picture of America's class structure. I'm an historian, not a sociologist, but I'd like to have a go at it:
-- bamjd3d 1346 PST 2 July 2005
http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-mobility.htm doesn't work.
I am deleting the Class and political leaning section. It cites absolutly no sources (not a single source is cited). Also, liberals/ conservatives as defined in section have a US-centric bias, liberals actually support capitalism. Also, left as defined in this article may refer more to econoic views, or to moral issuses, the section is not clear about that. This article is about an important topic, and recent minor political trends in certain regions do not merit inclusion in an important article. Therefore, this section does not merit inclusion in this article and should be removed. 72.139.119.165 00:55, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The traditional assumption of 20th century political theorists (particularly those examining the United States) has been that upper-class individuals will tend to be more conservative while lower-class individuals are more liberal. In this paradigm, conservatism would tend toward opposing greater social mobility and distribution of wealth, while liberalism would support an expanded welfare state. By the late 20th century and early 21st century, there is evidence that this correlation has reversed: upper-class individuals may be more likely to be liberal or leftist in their politics. There are several possible theories for this reversal:
This reversal is probably less statistically significant than some may think, because conservatives on average are better paid than liberals. Also, there is evidence which shows that wealthy neighborhoods are more likely to vote conservatively than liberally. What may be evident, however, is the reality of the "limousine liberal," a grouping of extremely wealthy people who tend toward Left views, particularly, in the stereotype, among members of the Hollywood culture. Statistically, the reality seems to be a division among both the wealthy and the less wealthy. Portions of both groups are conservative, while portions are liberal. Many less-wealthy, and therefore less-educated, people are attracted to conservative politics because of their traditional cultural and social attitudes, while other less-wealthy and less-educated individuals are attracted to liberalism in the hope to achieving greater social equality. Among the more wealthy, some associate education and open-mindedness with the welfare state and social justice programs espoused by liberal political movements, while others among the wealthy tend to hold to a more traditionalist viewpoint, some in the attempt (consciously or unconsciously) to retain their high socio-economic position; the latter view paradigm of the attitudes of the wealthy is particularly stereotypical. Some correlations also exist in various wings of religious affiliations, either replacing class as a primary factor, or in addition to class.
I can't tell what approach is being used. It seems more like a political piece, I guess. Maybe the name should be changed. The name makes it sound like a formal academic topic in sociology. ABSmyth 22:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The sentence "The contemporary United States has only one legally-recognized social class, actually a caste, of illegal immigrants ( euphemistically called "undocumented workers") numbering some 12 million." has come into question. The question is not whether it is true, but whether it can be shown to have a basis in a reliable source. This large group of people have a different legal status from the rest of the population, that is they have different, generally inferior legal rights, for example, they are not allowed to work. That they do work, after producing forged documents, is only confirmation of their status. Fred Bauder 21:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
A legally established group of people is the very definition of class. Consider the nobility, the clergy and the commoners of pre-revolutionary France, the Estates of the realm. Fred Bauder 00:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
On August 29th I started a re-write that led to more than 75% of the article being re-written in late August and early September. Best Regards, Signature brendel HAPPY HOLIDAYS 21:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)