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I am delisting this as a good article, for the reasons in the to-do list above. If the article failed only one of those criteria I would not delist it, but I feel the prose/SP&G problems and a significant aspect of the topic being missing are major enough problems. Joe D (t) 05:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph states that king cobras and black mambas will defend their terrtories in the context of creating ground vibration while walking. I think this is a bit misleading. The sources (national geographic) say "Black mambas are shy and will almost always seek to escape when confronted." and "Fortunately, king cobras are shy and will avoid humans whenever possible, but they are fiercely aggressive when cornered." The easter brownsnake of australia is known to be territorial as well. But I read in this article that brownsnakes advanced towards the observer in an offensive way in only 3 out of 455 close encounters during research, which gives a different picture. There seem to be a lot of myths around about the agressiveness of snakes so I think it is important to be extra cautious which such statements. 80.171.228.210 ( talk) 19:15, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
What is the problem with a tourniquet or with ice? Shouldn't a tourniquet be a better immbilizer than an elastic bandage? Icek 00:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Just how much pressure needs to be used is unclear. Everyone cites a 1994 study (D.M. Howarth; A.E. Southee; I.M. Whyte.
"Lymphatic flow rates and first-aid in simulated peripheral snake or spider envenomation". Med J Aust. 161 (11–12): 695–700.
ISSN
0025-729X. Retrieved 2006-06-25. {{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |affiliation=
ignored (
help))
that claims that a fairly narrow (and high) range of pressures is required. Another study (Robert L. Norris, MD; Jessica Ngo; Karen Nolan, MD; Giles Hooker, PhD.
"Physicians and Lay People Are Unable to Apply Pressure Immobilization Properly in a Simulated Snakebite Scenario". Wilderness and Environmental Medicine. 16 (1): 16–21. Retrieved 2006-06-25.)
claims that people are unable to achieve these pressures following written instructions.
However, other authors (Stuart Gray, Mcsp, B App Sc (Phty), Grad Dip Sports Physiotherapy, Grad Dip Recreation, Grad Dip App Sc (Outdoor Pursuits).
"Pressure Immobilization of Snakebite". Wilderness and Environmental Medicine. 14 (1): 73–73. Retrieved 2006-06-25.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link))
claim that, with proper immobilization, the need for any external pressure at all is unclear.
Certainly (sorry, no citation handy) it's widely observed to be highly effective in practice, which the first two articles say isn't to be expected. I'm doing some research to try to understand this issue better. 192.35.100.1 17:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The article says this: Approximately 85% of the natural snakebites occur below the victims' knees And then in the next paragraph this: approximately 65% of snakebites occur to the victims’ hands or fingers One of them has to be wrong.
I see nothing wrong with the statement. The first percentage refers to natural snakebites, while the second applies only to pet owners and people trying to capture snakes. No reason to change anything. -- Jwinius 15:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to ask this question for every possivble "bite" or "sting" from an animal. Exactly why is it that the immune system is unable to eradicate the threat from the venom of whatever creature it was that injected the venom?
Hi, I'm looking for help on the Snake-Stones article. Desipte the advice given here against using black stone to treat a snake bite, it seems like it's still a widely used treatment promoted by state health care, charities and the International Labour Organization. One medical study found benefits in using black stone.
If you can help with the medical aspects or the article in general (it's the first that I've made major edits to) then I'd be very grateful. I'm monitoring Talk:Snake-Stones regularly. Thanks, Hamster128 10:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The "Global evaluation of snakebite" table has a footnote that says "Population at risk". This footnote is rather vague. Which population - snakes or people? At risk in what way? -- B.d.mills 22:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I added an important elaboration about suctioning, as it is worth noting that the study referenced demonstrated that suction did not prove efficient when used 3 minutes after a bite occurence, but it would be interesting to see the same study done with the suctioning occuring at much faster intervals to look at its effectiveness. Wikismart 05:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding suctioning by the use of pumps, it is true that several organizations have updated the snake bite treatment to exclude suctioning based on the results of the one study, cited below and in the references to the main article. There is no reference provided to support the statement that suctioning may cause harm or accelerate or facilitate the spread of venom. That sentence should be referenced. Wikismart is on the mark when wondering what happens within three minutes, as many first aiders assume that the suctioning is effective under three minutes, while that remains unverified.
On the other hand, the experiment was a simulation in a controlled environment, and not a representation of the real life performance of the Sawyer pump extracting venom. Where is the scholarly discussion about in what sense is saline solution with albumin, used in the experiment, similar in chemical and physical properties to the actual snake venom? A mere difference in density or flowability might explain the results. What if the chemical properties of the complex organic compounds known to be present in venom cause the venom to be much slower in spreading (than the mock venom)? What if the venom's compounds were of such a nature as to be much more easily withdrawn through pneumatic action?
Finally, to change the "modus operandi", the treatment algorithm for snake bite because of the results of one study, which appears to date not to have been reproduced, is not good practice, unless there were clear and convincing evidence of injury from the practice. What if after the published results regarding cold fusion, everybody in the world canceled their electric service in expectation of unlimited nearly free energy? Of course the results were not reproduced. In this case, we have one experiment which is being interpreted to mean far beyond what it actually proved: very little.
At risk of being attacked, I recommend trial of actual venom in animal subject of proven human-like physiology, such as small mammals. The trials need not be fatal. In this way, the effectiveness of suction devices could be compared nearly "apples to apples." 74.165.119.53 17:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC) ^ Alberts M, Shalit M, LoGalbo F (2004). "Suction for venomous snakebite: a study of "mock venom" extraction in a human model". Ann Emerg Med 43 (2): 181-6. PMID 14747805.
Alas, learning never ends... Apparently such research has been conducted with actual venom and survival rates following suction, see for example: http://www.llu.edu/llu/grad/natsci/hayes/research-b-snakebite.html
It seems the original article could improve by providing more complete references. 74.165.119.53
Wow... that's quite the tautological first sentence... "A snakebite, or snake bite, is a bite inflicted by a snake." O RLY! -- Hyperbole 08:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I am amazed to find an article on snakebite with many lines about outmoded treatment and first aid but without even a single mention of antivenom. Obviously a person needs to know what is possible and available. AshLin 19:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the medical treatment, it seems that sections of the article contradict itself when refering to treatment. Major copy edit, and more cohesive section on medical treatment is needed. 75.67.92.148 ( talk) 07:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, the entire first aid section should probably be rewritten due to WP:NOTGUIDE, but the problem is more of format than anything else. The fact that antivenom exists really should only cover a sentence or two. 130.64.73.98 ( talk) 23:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I think someone should address the common practice of using high voltage direct current (hvdc) treatment on snake bites. This is usually done with low voltage stun guns (25-50kv). There is a lot of information out there about the use of stun guns, or even spark plugs on a combustion engine, on the site of a snake bite to greatly reduce anaphylaxis. Ordosingularis ( talk) 00:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
How about something on history and culture of snake bits? They do play a prominent role in human history. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 02:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Um, could we possibly move this image off the page and perhaps link to it for those who are really curious about what it looks like? It nearly made me empty my stomach. 92.41.57.189 ( talk) 02:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree. It's horrific. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.2.37.140 ( talk) 09:12, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I would really like someone to remove the image. It belongs on the page for Tissue Necrosis, but I think it's too graphic for a page talking about snakebites, especially since all snakebites do not cause tissue necrosis. KyleECronin ( talk) 09:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I know Wikipedia's not censored but it's always really annoying to run into that kind of image on a page where I wouldn't expect it. 216.170.23.235 ( talk) 05:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
It seems unnecessarily graphic, and isn't indicative of all snakebites. If it were a more standard picture of pinpricks and swelling, or even a smaller sore, it wouldn't be so bad. A child's limb rotting off might be a bit excessive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.208.207 ( talk) 02:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
The image is extreme, this is a general encyclopedia, not a pathologist's encyclopedia,administrators please remove it or move it to a more specialized section! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
79.130.95.15 (
talk)
17:47, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
This image is seriously unnecessary in this article. There is no need to show an eleven year old's limb rotting off, especially with no warning. That image doesn't even represent the majority of snakebites. The person who keeps putting the image back up is clearly on some sort of deranged, obsessive power trip as it is the same person every time. Administrators, please get rid of this picture. 12.196.41.122 ( talk) 19:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
The image is totally unnecessary in relation to this article and such things will probably increase the scare factor. This should be removed . Such necrosis after snakebite is extremely rare in snakebite in India. Also most people in this thread want this removed. Can someone please remove it.? Drsoumyadeepb ( talk) 13:27, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
hi,
there is myth that if snake bite any infant(human child) who has not consumed salt yet the infant will not be afftected by snake bite.Is it true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanjeev75 ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that's true, but only for children born during full moon 188.97.149.113 ( talk) 06:01, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Ok, all of this "Site x has the _ most venomous snakes" needs to be completely removed. As I've detailed on other pages, these lists are utter crap. Even the page linked to by the IP editor says as much. Venom toxicity varies with species, subspecies, region, population, family line, and even within the lifetime of an individual. And that's not counting that different species will have different deliveries - a tiny elapid may be capable of only subcutaneous injection, while some of the large vipers are easily capable of intramuscular injection (and Bushmasters are large enough with long enough fangs to possibly manage an intraperitoneal injection on a thin victim). And finally, the lists of species are woefully sparse - proclaiming the "10 deadliest" is like saying "We had 10 people out of 100 run this race, and will proclaim with winner the fastest, even though it's very possible that someone in the other 90 is faster". Any sort of "Ten Deadliest ____" is the sort of schlock you get from low-budget TV documentaries short on science and long on hype - no serious academic wastes time on such drivel, and neither should we. Mokele ( talk) 01:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Not to mention the snake venom test is done on MICE!!! Mice are not humans and to claim that humans would react exactly like mice do to snake venoms is stupid and reflexs your lack of knowledge on the subject.. Mice and humans can react way different to certain toxins and the whole "australian snakes are the most venomous" is absolutely ridiculous and inaccurate. I can post about 10 examples that show that mice and humans and cat and dogs etc etc react differently to different toxins and that claiming that Australia has the most venomous snakes based on tests done on mice is incredible stupid and false. The only way to know how toxic snake venom is to humans is either to test it on humans[ obviously wont happen] or to do actual research and read studies on snake bites on humans. Let me tell you the australian snake are overrated and to claim that Australian snakes are the most "dangerous" or "venomous" does not match the results from studies of bites on actual humans. Asian snakes seem to inflict the most severe and potent bites on humans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.78.238.24 ( talk) 05:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
This is by no means critical and I think the article is just fine without it, but how about a quick sentence explaining the term "snakebitten?" Ya know, unfortunate, having no luck...-- NYMFan69-86 ( talk) 23:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
This image is not accurate - it portrays countries such as New Zealand and Ireland, which have no snakes at all, as having more than 1000 snake bites per year. I think it needs to be removed or have changes made to it, as it is very misleading. 121.98.223.66 ( talk) 08:28, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
A review of envenomation: [4] Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 18:32, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
The article doesn't discuss the difference between legitimate versus illegitimate snakebites although it would seem that this is the place to do so.
Any suggestions as to where to add that discussion on this page?
-- J. Wong ( talk) 22:59, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Epidemiologists make a useful distinction between legitimate bites--those accidentally incurred during normal activities--and illegitimate bites--those sustained while purposely interacting with snakes.
I have a few concerns. One being that the section on first add is sort of "how to" and is not referenced. The other is that the antivenon section is poorly referenced. Unless these can be addressed will nominate for a formal review. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay just figured out that their is a subpage about pressure immobilisation. Greater detail on the technique can be discussed their. Have also found a few more recent review articles which discuss. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:56, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Hey Doc, when you are doing that reading, could I suggest (with apologies if this is obvious) that you look out for info for the following types of readers:
Stuff I would like to know includes:
I know that this is getting close to HowTo, but I can't see this info authoritatively assembled anywhere else, and I think there is scope for WP to assemble such info to WP:MEDRS standards. I think there is ample precedent re encyclopedias giving extra detail on First Aid - even our telephone White Pages includes a page on CPR.
BenevolentUncle ( talk) 07:28, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
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help)Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 11:01, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I precised the given ratios as ratios given for USA only, since the given references are only showing USA figures. For other countries, the male/female ratio as well as age structure can be different due to different lifestyle etc. (e.g. going to toilet outside the house, female workforces on the fields or mainly ladies collecting firewood, etc.). I didn't find so far a valid global figure for male/female ratios or age structures, but it seems the ratios/age figures vary widely from country to country (predominant male victims but at different ratios), a reference for Asia could be e.g. http://www.indjst.org/archive/vol.2.issue.9-10/oct09meenakshisun-30.pdf , there especially p. 70, in case someone wants to add Bangalorius ( talk) 16:34, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Much of this article is 1) unreffed 2) supported by primary research 3) is supported by research that is really old. Thus IMO it no longer meets GA criteria. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
References of those LD50 values should be displayed clearly since they vary from source to source. According to the tables on this page, the book called "Snakes in Question: The Smithsonian Answer Book" seems to give a much more toxic value to almost every venomous species than the Australian Venom and Toxin Database (as shared through Dr. Fry's website as well) does.
Further, I don't think different sources' statistics should be combined to yield those rankings of cobras' toxicity as the way done here on the article because, as patently described on the page of venomous snake, scales in use may be very different. Let's say: Snakes A, B and C are with S.C. LD50 of 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 mg/kg respectively in report A while Species A, B, D got values of 0.02, 0.04 and 0.08 respectively in report B. So, both sources agree that A and B are more toxic but when we seek to create a comprehensive toxicity ranking by singly combining D's value in report B to that of A , it comes out that D is even the most toxic one. We can't guess if the absent D is more venomous than C in report A or not and that's why the venomous snake page gives two separate lists of toxicity rankings with their authors clearly shown. Therefore, I believe the table of a cobras' ranking here should be actually deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.136.71.181 ( talk) 06:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/animal/taipan.htm#SectionTitle:7.2%20%20Toxicity 79.182.209.100 ( talk) 15:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
I made the table of the top 10 venomous Naja species and I have been thinking of deleting myself for the past several days. I am not comfortable with it because as you have correctly pointed out, there is too much variation in the toxicity of venoms at all levels: interfamily, intergenus, interspecies, intersubspecies and intraspecies, geographical variation, between individual specimens, and in individual specimens, due to seasonal variation, diet, habitat, age-dependent change, and sexual dimorphism. This is why I list the different results obtained from different studies for each species in the body of the article. There is no consistency in the toxicity/lethality of venom at all levels, especially not intraspecifically. The variation in lethality of venom within a single species in different regions of its geographical range is common in all species of venomous snakes, and in some species the differences can be drastic. Mukherjee et al. conducted a study on intraspecific venom lethality in two species of snake: Naja naja and Daboia russelli and found signifcant variation not only in the potency/lethality of the venom, but also in the composition (which results in different effects and has a role in the difference in lethality) between specimens collected from Western India and Eastern India. The average murine venom lethality ( LD50) for Western and Eastern N. naja was 0.7mg/kg IV and 0.44mg/kg IV, respectively. Variation within D. russelli was similar: Average LD50 for Western and Eastern specimens was 0.92mg/kg IV and 0.74mg/kg IV, respectively. Other research studies have found even greater variation within the lethality of intraspecific venom (eg, LD50 for Echis carinatus venom ranges from 0.44mg/kg IV to 24.1mg/kg IV; another study lists an average murine LD50 of 0.151mg/kg SC and the venom obtained from females is more than twice as lethal as those from males). Depending on the geographical location which specimens come from, age, sex, seasonal variation, diet and the methods employed in the research to determinine the lethality of venom in mice, you will a lot of different numbers for each species. So one black mamba from South Africa might have a venom that is 10x as lethal or potent as one from Zambia and this can be due to several factors (eg, this difference can be due to a difference in prey items - the South African specimen could have a diet that consists of prey items which have a higher higher natural resistance to the snakes venom than the Zambian specimen, etc). With that said, I am going to delete the table. -- DendroNaja ( talk) 19:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Just gave the talk section a more distinctive name for the topic 109.66.110.51 ( talk) 04:14, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for all of your attention here. Now please go and see the inland taipan page where I believe some references aren't scientific enough to support those claims of the time between death and evenomation and the capability of killing 100 full-grown men in a single bite. Many of them are simple news reports only. This animal was exaggerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.136.71.181 ( talk) 16:04, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Mice aren't humans and how do we know that we react with the venom in the same way as mice do? This statement itself isn't scientific. Yes it does be supported by two simple news articles but there're also lots of such websites claiming that 50% mortality rate was caused by krait bites even with anti-venom while no specific species or original medical literature is cited there.
No documented fatality has been caused by this species so how do we know that time between 30-45 minutes is the fastest span between death and envenomation? Yes, it can be estimated from some severely envenomated clinical patients but all in all this is just estimation not real occurrence, unlike those snakebites caused by, say, the black mamba which truly posed rapid fatalities on record. To be a more responsible editor, statements like "it is estimated that..." should be put ahead that span.
By the way, I'm not sure whether the lead of the page should be that long because it's just the introduction and details are there on the corresponding sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.136.71.181 ( talk) 06:14, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
According to this paper, the studies which Ernst & Zug (1996) conducted on the median lethal dose (LD50) of almost every single medically important species of snake is more accurate than what was reported by the Australian Venom and Toxin Database (AVTD). The utilisation of 0.1% bovine albumin has proven to produce consistent results over and over again. Saline used as a diluent produced vastly differing toxicity ratings in studies conducted not just by the Australian Venom and Toxin Database, but by Spawls & Branch, Shermin A. Minton, and even Brown. For example, Naja nivea has a 0.72 mg/kg via subcutis according to the AVTD, while Brown lists a value of 0.4 mg/kg subcutis. Brown administered doses of a multitude of venomous snakes in the same species of mice of the same weight - and guess what? He got such varying results that he couldn't list a single approximate LD50 value for any of the species he used as part of the study. He listed all the wildly varying values in his work. It is generally now accepted among the herpetological community at large that 0.1% bovine albumin is what should be used in such toxinology research as the results of the testing is consistent and not wildly ranging in its results. -- DendroNaja ( talk) 04:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Today, they use this "old 1979 research" you talk about as standard in researching such things as toxicity of venoms, drugs, etc. Only now they use Cohn method using albumin (fraction V) with chromatoography which results in a 98% precitate albumin (so 98% purity of the dried/solidified crude venom). It is why it i more accurate than any other list. Ernst & Zug are two of the foremost herpetologists that have studied toxicity in reptile venoms, especially among snakes. It is the highest purity you can achieve. Saline solution doesn't give such purity. If you were educated, you would've known all of that that. That is why even User:Jmh649, who is a physician, left only the Zug et al. list. I didn't make the change. He did. But you are just harassing me now because I discovered all your violations on the Inland taipan page and had an admin protect it from you. -- DendroNaja ( talk) 16:46, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I have been looking at the list that Ernst and Zug published in their book "Snakes in Question: The Smithsonian Answer Book" from 1996. and it simply didn't make sense.
First of all the list posted in the article is not the list published in the book. This is the list in the book, you can verify it in google books (see the first 3).
As you can see , this list is very strange. it is widely known that the inland taipan has the highest LD50 in mice. so what's with the Hook-nosed sea snake (Enhydrina schistosa) and even Russel's Viper (Vipera russelii) doing above it? with crazy LD50. and other snakes don't belong there like the black mamba, boomslang or Tiger rattlesnake (Crotalus tigris). I was scratching my head about this.
I found the answer from Associate Professor Bryan Grieg Fry the venom expert. he answered somebody on his blog regarding that exact list in the book :
Question: " ...I was talking to another herpatolagist and he said the hook nosed sea snake was the most venomous of all" Fry Answers: "The hook nosed myth was due to a fundamental error in a book called 'Snakes in question'. In there, all the toxicity testing results were lumped in together, regardless of the mode of testing (e.g. subcutaneous vs. intramuscular vs intravenous vs intraperitoneal). As the mode can influence the relative number, venoms can only be compared within a mode. Otherwise, its apples and rocks."
I will give few examples you'll get the picture:
The best place to see the difference quotes between subcutaneous/intramuscular/intravenous/intraperitoneal is Dr. Fry List put in categories http://web.archive.org/web/20120413182323/http://www.venomdoc.com/LD50/LD50men.html
So there's our problem.
I agree with the above post, LD50 is most accurate to 'real life' when tested using bovine serum albumin. This peer reviewed paper indeed says this as well and gives a good list, mostly are australian snakes: http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu5/broad1979b.pdf
The Australian research Unit lists more snakes, but only with Saline solution http://web.archive.org/web/20140111053927/http://www.avru.org/compendium/biogs/A000084b.htm
Fry list is also very good but I'm guessing its using Saline http://web.archive.org/web/20120413182323/http://www.venomdoc.com/LD50/LD50men.html
What i suggest for the wikipedia article is to make a list Using Fry's categories + Saline and bovine serum albumin subcutaneous quotes side by side. The "Snakes in Question: The Smithsonian Answer Book" from 1996 is useless and misleading. 109.66.173.51 ( talk) 02:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
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User:DendroNaja, has removed the scientific consensus LD50 list. and gamed the system to lock the article. as mentioned in the detailed review above. Ernst & Zug Never did a study (there is nothing published). and is erroneous and should not be used. The article should be reverted back prior to User:DendroNaja edit. totally not representing the reliable sources data. He is willing to dismiss the whole scientific consensus because his favorite snake (black mamba) is not listed 79.176.152.55 ( talk) 01:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the table showing the list of most venomous snakes LD50 by route of injection stay in the article? 79.176.152.55 ( talk) 06:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I have a direct quote from Ernst & Zug book, page 120 regarding their venomous snake list: "also, the LD50 values are mixed data, derivd from different studies using different sites of venom injection (intermascular, intraperitoneal and subcutaneous)". http://books.google.co.il/books?ei=iidDU6TqKqKv4AT_wIDQBg&hl=iw&id=TuY5AQAAIAAJ&dq=Snakes+in+question%3A+the+Smithsonian+answer+book&focus=searchwithinvolume&nfpr=1&q=Subcutaneous
On the other hand, Minton book does exactly what is needed for accurate citation, he has a table of modes of injection. for the black mamba it's 0.32 SC and 0.25 IV. Here you can see the head of the table : http://books.google.co.il/books?ei=m4JeU4PTMMa1yAPU1YD4BA&hl=iw&id=aEtrAAAAMAAJ&dq=black+mamba+ld50&focus=searchwithinvolume&nfpr=1&q=ld50 And here the black mamba quotation: http://books.google.co.il/books?ei=m4JeU4PTMMa1yAPU1YD4BA&hl=iw&id=aEtrAAAAMAAJ&dq=black+mamba+ld50&focus=searchwithinvolume&nfpr=1&q=%22black+mamba%22+0.32
We also have a clear quotation for intraperitoneal injection "The IP murine LD50 averaging 0.30mg/kg" taken from "Venomous” Bites from Non-Venomous Snakes: A Critical Analysis of Risk and Management of "Colubrid” Snake Bites... by Scott A Weinstein, David A. Warrell, Julian White and Daniel E Keyler (Jul 1, 2011) page 246 http://books.google.co.il/books?id=tjDQnbmJu0kC&pg=PA246&dq=black+mamba+ld50&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D4FeU8HlIKLq4gSLuoF4&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&nfpr=1&q=black%20mamba%20ld50&f=false
User Talk:DendroNaja has deliberately and fraudulently manipulated this article in order to push false information in the black mamba article . Ernst & Zug did not do the venom studies themselves. Ernst & Zug did not note differnce if Saline or Bovine serum albomin, Ernst & Zug never say that the quote for the black mamba is subcutaneous, which it's clearly not.
The original list should go back to the article, and the LD50 quote for the black mamba fixed. (same ip editor) 109.65.184.69 ( talk) 17:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Due to an ANI /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive.2C_authoritarian_editor_in_Snake_articles., User:DendroNaja has been banned indefinitely (for the 5th time) he has a long history of misrepresentation and misinformation "for long-standing abuse of editing privileges, including insidious vandalism, misrepresentation of references, and abusing multiple accounts. " (quote from his original banned account talk page). The corruption of this article by his hands will be amended soon (same ip editor) 79.179.106.114 ( talk) 18:55, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
While it seems that the IP editor's position that Dendro was cherry-picking and misrepresenting sources seems to be have been validated by ANI (along with evidence of socking via SPI), I would point out that some of the points he made were not altogether invalid. For one, on this project, lists of the sort being debated (in articles which are not themselves list articles) are generally avoided as unencyclopedic content. I see the content under debate has now been spun out to List of dangerous snakes by Jmh649 and while in principle, I think this could be a useful article, I have to note that the present version has some rather serious issues, and I can see how this content led to disruptive discussions here. For starters, that new article does not exactly hold tight to WP:SUMMARYSTYLE; a huge eyesore of a table tops the article, containing detailed clinical information that is of dubious encyclopedic value / questionable use to our readers -- given further that about 70% of it's cells lack any information at all, I question it's usefulness. In addition to this table, numerous sections bellow contain massive, unbroken, and unformatted blocks of text with nothing but clinical details and little in the way of context. Compounding the issues with readability further is the fact that the prose itself (that which is not dedicated to technical specification on venom amounts and potency) is incredibly weak and sub-par to our general project standards. If it is to stay, this article is going to need significant improvement utilizing the perspectives of new contributors. As such, I advise the IP that, though he has come out on top of this recent row (which, I might note, neither party approached in strictest manner as regards civility), he should be prepared for the fact that the article may need to be significantly parsed down to meet summary style, or at least improved drastically or readability. Snow talk 04:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
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It would be nice to have a photo at the top of the article that is more relevant to the content. The article is primarily concerned with dangerous bites by venomous snakes, but the current photo at the top shows a bite from a Montpellier snake. Although nominally somewhat venomous, as the article on that snake says, "The Montpellier snake is not a dangerous snake for humans", and the bite looks rather harmless. The photo shows no clear fang marks or swelling – it looks roughly like a bite from a small rat snake, which is not what the article is primarily about. Although I agree that the picture at the top should not be something completely horrific, like the picture of the necrotic leg shown later in the article, it would be much better to illustrate the article with a picture of a bite that looks more significant. I looked around on Wikimedia commons and found several pictures of snake bites, but none of them seemed very good to put at the top of this article (although one of these might be somewhat of an improvement: File:Snake bite 5.jpg or File:Snake Bite injury.jpg or File:Ictus serpentis 02.JPG). — BarrelProof ( talk) 20:19, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The article says that "Most bites are on the hands or arms." This might indeed be true, but I am skeptical. The cited source is an article that is about "bites ... encountered in North America". North America is not typical. Snakebites are relatively uncommon in North America, and the victims there, as the article notes, are typically young men, and the circumstances there often involve the handling of snakes kept as pets or some other form of deliberate recreational interaction rather than accidental encounters such as merely stepping on a snake without knowing it was there (and often involve alcohol consumption), and people in North America generally wear sturdy footwear and long pants when they go walking around outside where they are likely to encounter venomous snakes. My impression is that outside of North America, cases may more often involve the feet and legs. It would be nice to find a source that has a more worldwide view on the subject. Also, I don't have a copy of the cited article so I don't know exactly what it says. The abstract does not include such a statement. — BarrelProof ( talk) 23:50, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello wiki community.
I'd like to draw attention to the new Snakebite initiative launched by Wellcome - an £80m investment into modernising treatment, making it cheaper and raising awareness of the issue globally. This also coincides with the World Health organisation launching the global strategy to half snakebites by 2030 and the UK Department for International Development's £9m investment to find the 'Holy Grail' of antivenom.
Declaring a conflict of interest as I work at Wellcome.
The announcement today spans from Science news to international. The links are here:
Reuters BBC Feature on the issue in The Telegraph Article in Science mag. Outline by Wellcome The WHO strategy
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Melancholy2004 ( talk • contribs) 08:30, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Is this article in The Lancet a suitable source as per WP:MEDRS for adding information on global incidence of snakebite? Zeromonk ( talk) 07:45, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
It says "In medieval Europe, a form of capital punishment was to throw people into snake pits, leaving people to die from multiple venomous bites." But if you look at snake pits, you will only find "legends and fairy tales" mentioned. I do not want to imply anything with respect to different parts of the world, but I know Europe, and we just don't have snakes that are poisonous enough (or enough of them) to be able to do this. In any case, you would need a dedicated breeding institution for that, which in medieval Europe definitely did not exist. Let's drop that. And also for the other instances reported as factually, better sources would be welcome -- the one about India does not seem to be particularly trustworthy (it also only reports hearsay). Seattle Jörg ( talk) 06:37, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Cleopatra reportedly committed suicide by the bite of an asp. You are welcome to believe or disbelieve Plutarch.
"Snake pit" is often a metaphor for corrupt and vile institutions. Snakes get a bad reputation in the animal world. Large predators (bears and Big Cats in Imperial Rome, and dogs in Nazi concentration camps) have been used more reliably for homicidal purposes.
The biggest danger from snake bite, except for those species most aggressive and venomous is that one does not get first aid and medical treatment swiftly enough. I noticed at one point that death is more likely from an infection from COVID-19 than from rattlesnake bite (early during the plague). Snake bite is not a reliable means of killing people in executions. Pbrower2a ( talk) 01:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Man 45.117.51.76 ( talk) 16:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Venomous snakes typically avoid contact with humans. Given the choice, both retreat. Humans are not prey of any venomous snake, so snakebite is usually a defensive reaction. See also dogs and cats, potential predators of venomous snakes.
A large proportion of persons who have endured a snakebite have deliberately and recklessly confronted a venomous snake are drunk at the time.
This suggests drunkenness and harassment of venomous snakes is a risk factor -- more than would be expected among fishing, hiking, and camping as activities or such activities as farming, ranching, utility work, or oilfield work. Pbrower2a ( talk) 01:39, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
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I am delisting this as a good article, for the reasons in the to-do list above. If the article failed only one of those criteria I would not delist it, but I feel the prose/SP&G problems and a significant aspect of the topic being missing are major enough problems. Joe D (t) 05:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph states that king cobras and black mambas will defend their terrtories in the context of creating ground vibration while walking. I think this is a bit misleading. The sources (national geographic) say "Black mambas are shy and will almost always seek to escape when confronted." and "Fortunately, king cobras are shy and will avoid humans whenever possible, but they are fiercely aggressive when cornered." The easter brownsnake of australia is known to be territorial as well. But I read in this article that brownsnakes advanced towards the observer in an offensive way in only 3 out of 455 close encounters during research, which gives a different picture. There seem to be a lot of myths around about the agressiveness of snakes so I think it is important to be extra cautious which such statements. 80.171.228.210 ( talk) 19:15, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
What is the problem with a tourniquet or with ice? Shouldn't a tourniquet be a better immbilizer than an elastic bandage? Icek 00:41, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Just how much pressure needs to be used is unclear. Everyone cites a 1994 study (D.M. Howarth; A.E. Southee; I.M. Whyte.
"Lymphatic flow rates and first-aid in simulated peripheral snake or spider envenomation". Med J Aust. 161 (11–12): 695–700.
ISSN
0025-729X. Retrieved 2006-06-25. {{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |affiliation=
ignored (
help))
that claims that a fairly narrow (and high) range of pressures is required. Another study (Robert L. Norris, MD; Jessica Ngo; Karen Nolan, MD; Giles Hooker, PhD.
"Physicians and Lay People Are Unable to Apply Pressure Immobilization Properly in a Simulated Snakebite Scenario". Wilderness and Environmental Medicine. 16 (1): 16–21. Retrieved 2006-06-25.)
claims that people are unable to achieve these pressures following written instructions.
However, other authors (Stuart Gray, Mcsp, B App Sc (Phty), Grad Dip Sports Physiotherapy, Grad Dip Recreation, Grad Dip App Sc (Outdoor Pursuits).
"Pressure Immobilization of Snakebite". Wilderness and Environmental Medicine. 14 (1): 73–73. Retrieved 2006-06-25.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link))
claim that, with proper immobilization, the need for any external pressure at all is unclear.
Certainly (sorry, no citation handy) it's widely observed to be highly effective in practice, which the first two articles say isn't to be expected. I'm doing some research to try to understand this issue better. 192.35.100.1 17:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The article says this: Approximately 85% of the natural snakebites occur below the victims' knees And then in the next paragraph this: approximately 65% of snakebites occur to the victims’ hands or fingers One of them has to be wrong.
I see nothing wrong with the statement. The first percentage refers to natural snakebites, while the second applies only to pet owners and people trying to capture snakes. No reason to change anything. -- Jwinius 15:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I want to ask this question for every possivble "bite" or "sting" from an animal. Exactly why is it that the immune system is unable to eradicate the threat from the venom of whatever creature it was that injected the venom?
Hi, I'm looking for help on the Snake-Stones article. Desipte the advice given here against using black stone to treat a snake bite, it seems like it's still a widely used treatment promoted by state health care, charities and the International Labour Organization. One medical study found benefits in using black stone.
If you can help with the medical aspects or the article in general (it's the first that I've made major edits to) then I'd be very grateful. I'm monitoring Talk:Snake-Stones regularly. Thanks, Hamster128 10:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The "Global evaluation of snakebite" table has a footnote that says "Population at risk". This footnote is rather vague. Which population - snakes or people? At risk in what way? -- B.d.mills 22:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I added an important elaboration about suctioning, as it is worth noting that the study referenced demonstrated that suction did not prove efficient when used 3 minutes after a bite occurence, but it would be interesting to see the same study done with the suctioning occuring at much faster intervals to look at its effectiveness. Wikismart 05:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding suctioning by the use of pumps, it is true that several organizations have updated the snake bite treatment to exclude suctioning based on the results of the one study, cited below and in the references to the main article. There is no reference provided to support the statement that suctioning may cause harm or accelerate or facilitate the spread of venom. That sentence should be referenced. Wikismart is on the mark when wondering what happens within three minutes, as many first aiders assume that the suctioning is effective under three minutes, while that remains unverified.
On the other hand, the experiment was a simulation in a controlled environment, and not a representation of the real life performance of the Sawyer pump extracting venom. Where is the scholarly discussion about in what sense is saline solution with albumin, used in the experiment, similar in chemical and physical properties to the actual snake venom? A mere difference in density or flowability might explain the results. What if the chemical properties of the complex organic compounds known to be present in venom cause the venom to be much slower in spreading (than the mock venom)? What if the venom's compounds were of such a nature as to be much more easily withdrawn through pneumatic action?
Finally, to change the "modus operandi", the treatment algorithm for snake bite because of the results of one study, which appears to date not to have been reproduced, is not good practice, unless there were clear and convincing evidence of injury from the practice. What if after the published results regarding cold fusion, everybody in the world canceled their electric service in expectation of unlimited nearly free energy? Of course the results were not reproduced. In this case, we have one experiment which is being interpreted to mean far beyond what it actually proved: very little.
At risk of being attacked, I recommend trial of actual venom in animal subject of proven human-like physiology, such as small mammals. The trials need not be fatal. In this way, the effectiveness of suction devices could be compared nearly "apples to apples." 74.165.119.53 17:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC) ^ Alberts M, Shalit M, LoGalbo F (2004). "Suction for venomous snakebite: a study of "mock venom" extraction in a human model". Ann Emerg Med 43 (2): 181-6. PMID 14747805.
Alas, learning never ends... Apparently such research has been conducted with actual venom and survival rates following suction, see for example: http://www.llu.edu/llu/grad/natsci/hayes/research-b-snakebite.html
It seems the original article could improve by providing more complete references. 74.165.119.53
Wow... that's quite the tautological first sentence... "A snakebite, or snake bite, is a bite inflicted by a snake." O RLY! -- Hyperbole 08:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I am amazed to find an article on snakebite with many lines about outmoded treatment and first aid but without even a single mention of antivenom. Obviously a person needs to know what is possible and available. AshLin 19:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the medical treatment, it seems that sections of the article contradict itself when refering to treatment. Major copy edit, and more cohesive section on medical treatment is needed. 75.67.92.148 ( talk) 07:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, the entire first aid section should probably be rewritten due to WP:NOTGUIDE, but the problem is more of format than anything else. The fact that antivenom exists really should only cover a sentence or two. 130.64.73.98 ( talk) 23:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I think someone should address the common practice of using high voltage direct current (hvdc) treatment on snake bites. This is usually done with low voltage stun guns (25-50kv). There is a lot of information out there about the use of stun guns, or even spark plugs on a combustion engine, on the site of a snake bite to greatly reduce anaphylaxis. Ordosingularis ( talk) 00:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
How about something on history and culture of snake bits? They do play a prominent role in human history. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 02:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Um, could we possibly move this image off the page and perhaps link to it for those who are really curious about what it looks like? It nearly made me empty my stomach. 92.41.57.189 ( talk) 02:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree. It's horrific. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.2.37.140 ( talk) 09:12, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I would really like someone to remove the image. It belongs on the page for Tissue Necrosis, but I think it's too graphic for a page talking about snakebites, especially since all snakebites do not cause tissue necrosis. KyleECronin ( talk) 09:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
I know Wikipedia's not censored but it's always really annoying to run into that kind of image on a page where I wouldn't expect it. 216.170.23.235 ( talk) 05:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
It seems unnecessarily graphic, and isn't indicative of all snakebites. If it were a more standard picture of pinpricks and swelling, or even a smaller sore, it wouldn't be so bad. A child's limb rotting off might be a bit excessive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.208.207 ( talk) 02:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
The image is extreme, this is a general encyclopedia, not a pathologist's encyclopedia,administrators please remove it or move it to a more specialized section! — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
79.130.95.15 (
talk)
17:47, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
This image is seriously unnecessary in this article. There is no need to show an eleven year old's limb rotting off, especially with no warning. That image doesn't even represent the majority of snakebites. The person who keeps putting the image back up is clearly on some sort of deranged, obsessive power trip as it is the same person every time. Administrators, please get rid of this picture. 12.196.41.122 ( talk) 19:46, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
The image is totally unnecessary in relation to this article and such things will probably increase the scare factor. This should be removed . Such necrosis after snakebite is extremely rare in snakebite in India. Also most people in this thread want this removed. Can someone please remove it.? Drsoumyadeepb ( talk) 13:27, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
hi,
there is myth that if snake bite any infant(human child) who has not consumed salt yet the infant will not be afftected by snake bite.Is it true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanjeev75 ( talk • contribs) 14:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that's true, but only for children born during full moon 188.97.149.113 ( talk) 06:01, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Ok, all of this "Site x has the _ most venomous snakes" needs to be completely removed. As I've detailed on other pages, these lists are utter crap. Even the page linked to by the IP editor says as much. Venom toxicity varies with species, subspecies, region, population, family line, and even within the lifetime of an individual. And that's not counting that different species will have different deliveries - a tiny elapid may be capable of only subcutaneous injection, while some of the large vipers are easily capable of intramuscular injection (and Bushmasters are large enough with long enough fangs to possibly manage an intraperitoneal injection on a thin victim). And finally, the lists of species are woefully sparse - proclaiming the "10 deadliest" is like saying "We had 10 people out of 100 run this race, and will proclaim with winner the fastest, even though it's very possible that someone in the other 90 is faster". Any sort of "Ten Deadliest ____" is the sort of schlock you get from low-budget TV documentaries short on science and long on hype - no serious academic wastes time on such drivel, and neither should we. Mokele ( talk) 01:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Not to mention the snake venom test is done on MICE!!! Mice are not humans and to claim that humans would react exactly like mice do to snake venoms is stupid and reflexs your lack of knowledge on the subject.. Mice and humans can react way different to certain toxins and the whole "australian snakes are the most venomous" is absolutely ridiculous and inaccurate. I can post about 10 examples that show that mice and humans and cat and dogs etc etc react differently to different toxins and that claiming that Australia has the most venomous snakes based on tests done on mice is incredible stupid and false. The only way to know how toxic snake venom is to humans is either to test it on humans[ obviously wont happen] or to do actual research and read studies on snake bites on humans. Let me tell you the australian snake are overrated and to claim that Australian snakes are the most "dangerous" or "venomous" does not match the results from studies of bites on actual humans. Asian snakes seem to inflict the most severe and potent bites on humans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.78.238.24 ( talk) 05:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
This is by no means critical and I think the article is just fine without it, but how about a quick sentence explaining the term "snakebitten?" Ya know, unfortunate, having no luck...-- NYMFan69-86 ( talk) 23:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
This image is not accurate - it portrays countries such as New Zealand and Ireland, which have no snakes at all, as having more than 1000 snake bites per year. I think it needs to be removed or have changes made to it, as it is very misleading. 121.98.223.66 ( talk) 08:28, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
A review of envenomation: [4] Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 18:32, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
The article doesn't discuss the difference between legitimate versus illegitimate snakebites although it would seem that this is the place to do so.
Any suggestions as to where to add that discussion on this page?
-- J. Wong ( talk) 22:59, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Epidemiologists make a useful distinction between legitimate bites--those accidentally incurred during normal activities--and illegitimate bites--those sustained while purposely interacting with snakes.
I have a few concerns. One being that the section on first add is sort of "how to" and is not referenced. The other is that the antivenon section is poorly referenced. Unless these can be addressed will nominate for a formal review. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay just figured out that their is a subpage about pressure immobilisation. Greater detail on the technique can be discussed their. Have also found a few more recent review articles which discuss. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:56, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Hey Doc, when you are doing that reading, could I suggest (with apologies if this is obvious) that you look out for info for the following types of readers:
Stuff I would like to know includes:
I know that this is getting close to HowTo, but I can't see this info authoritatively assembled anywhere else, and I think there is scope for WP to assemble such info to WP:MEDRS standards. I think there is ample precedent re encyclopedias giving extra detail on First Aid - even our telephone White Pages includes a page on CPR.
BenevolentUncle ( talk) 07:28, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
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I precised the given ratios as ratios given for USA only, since the given references are only showing USA figures. For other countries, the male/female ratio as well as age structure can be different due to different lifestyle etc. (e.g. going to toilet outside the house, female workforces on the fields or mainly ladies collecting firewood, etc.). I didn't find so far a valid global figure for male/female ratios or age structures, but it seems the ratios/age figures vary widely from country to country (predominant male victims but at different ratios), a reference for Asia could be e.g. http://www.indjst.org/archive/vol.2.issue.9-10/oct09meenakshisun-30.pdf , there especially p. 70, in case someone wants to add Bangalorius ( talk) 16:34, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Much of this article is 1) unreffed 2) supported by primary research 3) is supported by research that is really old. Thus IMO it no longer meets GA criteria. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
References of those LD50 values should be displayed clearly since they vary from source to source. According to the tables on this page, the book called "Snakes in Question: The Smithsonian Answer Book" seems to give a much more toxic value to almost every venomous species than the Australian Venom and Toxin Database (as shared through Dr. Fry's website as well) does.
Further, I don't think different sources' statistics should be combined to yield those rankings of cobras' toxicity as the way done here on the article because, as patently described on the page of venomous snake, scales in use may be very different. Let's say: Snakes A, B and C are with S.C. LD50 of 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 mg/kg respectively in report A while Species A, B, D got values of 0.02, 0.04 and 0.08 respectively in report B. So, both sources agree that A and B are more toxic but when we seek to create a comprehensive toxicity ranking by singly combining D's value in report B to that of A , it comes out that D is even the most toxic one. We can't guess if the absent D is more venomous than C in report A or not and that's why the venomous snake page gives two separate lists of toxicity rankings with their authors clearly shown. Therefore, I believe the table of a cobras' ranking here should be actually deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.136.71.181 ( talk) 06:33, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/animal/taipan.htm#SectionTitle:7.2%20%20Toxicity 79.182.209.100 ( talk) 15:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
I made the table of the top 10 venomous Naja species and I have been thinking of deleting myself for the past several days. I am not comfortable with it because as you have correctly pointed out, there is too much variation in the toxicity of venoms at all levels: interfamily, intergenus, interspecies, intersubspecies and intraspecies, geographical variation, between individual specimens, and in individual specimens, due to seasonal variation, diet, habitat, age-dependent change, and sexual dimorphism. This is why I list the different results obtained from different studies for each species in the body of the article. There is no consistency in the toxicity/lethality of venom at all levels, especially not intraspecifically. The variation in lethality of venom within a single species in different regions of its geographical range is common in all species of venomous snakes, and in some species the differences can be drastic. Mukherjee et al. conducted a study on intraspecific venom lethality in two species of snake: Naja naja and Daboia russelli and found signifcant variation not only in the potency/lethality of the venom, but also in the composition (which results in different effects and has a role in the difference in lethality) between specimens collected from Western India and Eastern India. The average murine venom lethality ( LD50) for Western and Eastern N. naja was 0.7mg/kg IV and 0.44mg/kg IV, respectively. Variation within D. russelli was similar: Average LD50 for Western and Eastern specimens was 0.92mg/kg IV and 0.74mg/kg IV, respectively. Other research studies have found even greater variation within the lethality of intraspecific venom (eg, LD50 for Echis carinatus venom ranges from 0.44mg/kg IV to 24.1mg/kg IV; another study lists an average murine LD50 of 0.151mg/kg SC and the venom obtained from females is more than twice as lethal as those from males). Depending on the geographical location which specimens come from, age, sex, seasonal variation, diet and the methods employed in the research to determinine the lethality of venom in mice, you will a lot of different numbers for each species. So one black mamba from South Africa might have a venom that is 10x as lethal or potent as one from Zambia and this can be due to several factors (eg, this difference can be due to a difference in prey items - the South African specimen could have a diet that consists of prey items which have a higher higher natural resistance to the snakes venom than the Zambian specimen, etc). With that said, I am going to delete the table. -- DendroNaja ( talk) 19:35, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Just gave the talk section a more distinctive name for the topic 109.66.110.51 ( talk) 04:14, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for all of your attention here. Now please go and see the inland taipan page where I believe some references aren't scientific enough to support those claims of the time between death and evenomation and the capability of killing 100 full-grown men in a single bite. Many of them are simple news reports only. This animal was exaggerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.136.71.181 ( talk) 16:04, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Mice aren't humans and how do we know that we react with the venom in the same way as mice do? This statement itself isn't scientific. Yes it does be supported by two simple news articles but there're also lots of such websites claiming that 50% mortality rate was caused by krait bites even with anti-venom while no specific species or original medical literature is cited there.
No documented fatality has been caused by this species so how do we know that time between 30-45 minutes is the fastest span between death and envenomation? Yes, it can be estimated from some severely envenomated clinical patients but all in all this is just estimation not real occurrence, unlike those snakebites caused by, say, the black mamba which truly posed rapid fatalities on record. To be a more responsible editor, statements like "it is estimated that..." should be put ahead that span.
By the way, I'm not sure whether the lead of the page should be that long because it's just the introduction and details are there on the corresponding sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.136.71.181 ( talk) 06:14, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
According to this paper, the studies which Ernst & Zug (1996) conducted on the median lethal dose (LD50) of almost every single medically important species of snake is more accurate than what was reported by the Australian Venom and Toxin Database (AVTD). The utilisation of 0.1% bovine albumin has proven to produce consistent results over and over again. Saline used as a diluent produced vastly differing toxicity ratings in studies conducted not just by the Australian Venom and Toxin Database, but by Spawls & Branch, Shermin A. Minton, and even Brown. For example, Naja nivea has a 0.72 mg/kg via subcutis according to the AVTD, while Brown lists a value of 0.4 mg/kg subcutis. Brown administered doses of a multitude of venomous snakes in the same species of mice of the same weight - and guess what? He got such varying results that he couldn't list a single approximate LD50 value for any of the species he used as part of the study. He listed all the wildly varying values in his work. It is generally now accepted among the herpetological community at large that 0.1% bovine albumin is what should be used in such toxinology research as the results of the testing is consistent and not wildly ranging in its results. -- DendroNaja ( talk) 04:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Today, they use this "old 1979 research" you talk about as standard in researching such things as toxicity of venoms, drugs, etc. Only now they use Cohn method using albumin (fraction V) with chromatoography which results in a 98% precitate albumin (so 98% purity of the dried/solidified crude venom). It is why it i more accurate than any other list. Ernst & Zug are two of the foremost herpetologists that have studied toxicity in reptile venoms, especially among snakes. It is the highest purity you can achieve. Saline solution doesn't give such purity. If you were educated, you would've known all of that that. That is why even User:Jmh649, who is a physician, left only the Zug et al. list. I didn't make the change. He did. But you are just harassing me now because I discovered all your violations on the Inland taipan page and had an admin protect it from you. -- DendroNaja ( talk) 16:46, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I have been looking at the list that Ernst and Zug published in their book "Snakes in Question: The Smithsonian Answer Book" from 1996. and it simply didn't make sense.
First of all the list posted in the article is not the list published in the book. This is the list in the book, you can verify it in google books (see the first 3).
As you can see , this list is very strange. it is widely known that the inland taipan has the highest LD50 in mice. so what's with the Hook-nosed sea snake (Enhydrina schistosa) and even Russel's Viper (Vipera russelii) doing above it? with crazy LD50. and other snakes don't belong there like the black mamba, boomslang or Tiger rattlesnake (Crotalus tigris). I was scratching my head about this.
I found the answer from Associate Professor Bryan Grieg Fry the venom expert. he answered somebody on his blog regarding that exact list in the book :
Question: " ...I was talking to another herpatolagist and he said the hook nosed sea snake was the most venomous of all" Fry Answers: "The hook nosed myth was due to a fundamental error in a book called 'Snakes in question'. In there, all the toxicity testing results were lumped in together, regardless of the mode of testing (e.g. subcutaneous vs. intramuscular vs intravenous vs intraperitoneal). As the mode can influence the relative number, venoms can only be compared within a mode. Otherwise, its apples and rocks."
I will give few examples you'll get the picture:
The best place to see the difference quotes between subcutaneous/intramuscular/intravenous/intraperitoneal is Dr. Fry List put in categories http://web.archive.org/web/20120413182323/http://www.venomdoc.com/LD50/LD50men.html
So there's our problem.
I agree with the above post, LD50 is most accurate to 'real life' when tested using bovine serum albumin. This peer reviewed paper indeed says this as well and gives a good list, mostly are australian snakes: http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu5/broad1979b.pdf
The Australian research Unit lists more snakes, but only with Saline solution http://web.archive.org/web/20140111053927/http://www.avru.org/compendium/biogs/A000084b.htm
Fry list is also very good but I'm guessing its using Saline http://web.archive.org/web/20120413182323/http://www.venomdoc.com/LD50/LD50men.html
What i suggest for the wikipedia article is to make a list Using Fry's categories + Saline and bovine serum albumin subcutaneous quotes side by side. The "Snakes in Question: The Smithsonian Answer Book" from 1996 is useless and misleading. 109.66.173.51 ( talk) 02:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
This
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User:DendroNaja, has removed the scientific consensus LD50 list. and gamed the system to lock the article. as mentioned in the detailed review above. Ernst & Zug Never did a study (there is nothing published). and is erroneous and should not be used. The article should be reverted back prior to User:DendroNaja edit. totally not representing the reliable sources data. He is willing to dismiss the whole scientific consensus because his favorite snake (black mamba) is not listed 79.176.152.55 ( talk) 01:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the table showing the list of most venomous snakes LD50 by route of injection stay in the article? 79.176.152.55 ( talk) 06:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I have a direct quote from Ernst & Zug book, page 120 regarding their venomous snake list: "also, the LD50 values are mixed data, derivd from different studies using different sites of venom injection (intermascular, intraperitoneal and subcutaneous)". http://books.google.co.il/books?ei=iidDU6TqKqKv4AT_wIDQBg&hl=iw&id=TuY5AQAAIAAJ&dq=Snakes+in+question%3A+the+Smithsonian+answer+book&focus=searchwithinvolume&nfpr=1&q=Subcutaneous
On the other hand, Minton book does exactly what is needed for accurate citation, he has a table of modes of injection. for the black mamba it's 0.32 SC and 0.25 IV. Here you can see the head of the table : http://books.google.co.il/books?ei=m4JeU4PTMMa1yAPU1YD4BA&hl=iw&id=aEtrAAAAMAAJ&dq=black+mamba+ld50&focus=searchwithinvolume&nfpr=1&q=ld50 And here the black mamba quotation: http://books.google.co.il/books?ei=m4JeU4PTMMa1yAPU1YD4BA&hl=iw&id=aEtrAAAAMAAJ&dq=black+mamba+ld50&focus=searchwithinvolume&nfpr=1&q=%22black+mamba%22+0.32
We also have a clear quotation for intraperitoneal injection "The IP murine LD50 averaging 0.30mg/kg" taken from "Venomous” Bites from Non-Venomous Snakes: A Critical Analysis of Risk and Management of "Colubrid” Snake Bites... by Scott A Weinstein, David A. Warrell, Julian White and Daniel E Keyler (Jul 1, 2011) page 246 http://books.google.co.il/books?id=tjDQnbmJu0kC&pg=PA246&dq=black+mamba+ld50&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D4FeU8HlIKLq4gSLuoF4&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&nfpr=1&q=black%20mamba%20ld50&f=false
User Talk:DendroNaja has deliberately and fraudulently manipulated this article in order to push false information in the black mamba article . Ernst & Zug did not do the venom studies themselves. Ernst & Zug did not note differnce if Saline or Bovine serum albomin, Ernst & Zug never say that the quote for the black mamba is subcutaneous, which it's clearly not.
The original list should go back to the article, and the LD50 quote for the black mamba fixed. (same ip editor) 109.65.184.69 ( talk) 17:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Due to an ANI /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive.2C_authoritarian_editor_in_Snake_articles., User:DendroNaja has been banned indefinitely (for the 5th time) he has a long history of misrepresentation and misinformation "for long-standing abuse of editing privileges, including insidious vandalism, misrepresentation of references, and abusing multiple accounts. " (quote from his original banned account talk page). The corruption of this article by his hands will be amended soon (same ip editor) 79.179.106.114 ( talk) 18:55, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
While it seems that the IP editor's position that Dendro was cherry-picking and misrepresenting sources seems to be have been validated by ANI (along with evidence of socking via SPI), I would point out that some of the points he made were not altogether invalid. For one, on this project, lists of the sort being debated (in articles which are not themselves list articles) are generally avoided as unencyclopedic content. I see the content under debate has now been spun out to List of dangerous snakes by Jmh649 and while in principle, I think this could be a useful article, I have to note that the present version has some rather serious issues, and I can see how this content led to disruptive discussions here. For starters, that new article does not exactly hold tight to WP:SUMMARYSTYLE; a huge eyesore of a table tops the article, containing detailed clinical information that is of dubious encyclopedic value / questionable use to our readers -- given further that about 70% of it's cells lack any information at all, I question it's usefulness. In addition to this table, numerous sections bellow contain massive, unbroken, and unformatted blocks of text with nothing but clinical details and little in the way of context. Compounding the issues with readability further is the fact that the prose itself (that which is not dedicated to technical specification on venom amounts and potency) is incredibly weak and sub-par to our general project standards. If it is to stay, this article is going to need significant improvement utilizing the perspectives of new contributors. As such, I advise the IP that, though he has come out on top of this recent row (which, I might note, neither party approached in strictest manner as regards civility), he should be prepared for the fact that the article may need to be significantly parsed down to meet summary style, or at least improved drastically or readability. Snow talk 04:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
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It would be nice to have a photo at the top of the article that is more relevant to the content. The article is primarily concerned with dangerous bites by venomous snakes, but the current photo at the top shows a bite from a Montpellier snake. Although nominally somewhat venomous, as the article on that snake says, "The Montpellier snake is not a dangerous snake for humans", and the bite looks rather harmless. The photo shows no clear fang marks or swelling – it looks roughly like a bite from a small rat snake, which is not what the article is primarily about. Although I agree that the picture at the top should not be something completely horrific, like the picture of the necrotic leg shown later in the article, it would be much better to illustrate the article with a picture of a bite that looks more significant. I looked around on Wikimedia commons and found several pictures of snake bites, but none of them seemed very good to put at the top of this article (although one of these might be somewhat of an improvement: File:Snake bite 5.jpg or File:Snake Bite injury.jpg or File:Ictus serpentis 02.JPG). — BarrelProof ( talk) 20:19, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The article says that "Most bites are on the hands or arms." This might indeed be true, but I am skeptical. The cited source is an article that is about "bites ... encountered in North America". North America is not typical. Snakebites are relatively uncommon in North America, and the victims there, as the article notes, are typically young men, and the circumstances there often involve the handling of snakes kept as pets or some other form of deliberate recreational interaction rather than accidental encounters such as merely stepping on a snake without knowing it was there (and often involve alcohol consumption), and people in North America generally wear sturdy footwear and long pants when they go walking around outside where they are likely to encounter venomous snakes. My impression is that outside of North America, cases may more often involve the feet and legs. It would be nice to find a source that has a more worldwide view on the subject. Also, I don't have a copy of the cited article so I don't know exactly what it says. The abstract does not include such a statement. — BarrelProof ( talk) 23:50, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello wiki community.
I'd like to draw attention to the new Snakebite initiative launched by Wellcome - an £80m investment into modernising treatment, making it cheaper and raising awareness of the issue globally. This also coincides with the World Health organisation launching the global strategy to half snakebites by 2030 and the UK Department for International Development's £9m investment to find the 'Holy Grail' of antivenom.
Declaring a conflict of interest as I work at Wellcome.
The announcement today spans from Science news to international. The links are here:
Reuters BBC Feature on the issue in The Telegraph Article in Science mag. Outline by Wellcome The WHO strategy
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Melancholy2004 ( talk • contribs) 08:30, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Is this article in The Lancet a suitable source as per WP:MEDRS for adding information on global incidence of snakebite? Zeromonk ( talk) 07:45, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
It says "In medieval Europe, a form of capital punishment was to throw people into snake pits, leaving people to die from multiple venomous bites." But if you look at snake pits, you will only find "legends and fairy tales" mentioned. I do not want to imply anything with respect to different parts of the world, but I know Europe, and we just don't have snakes that are poisonous enough (or enough of them) to be able to do this. In any case, you would need a dedicated breeding institution for that, which in medieval Europe definitely did not exist. Let's drop that. And also for the other instances reported as factually, better sources would be welcome -- the one about India does not seem to be particularly trustworthy (it also only reports hearsay). Seattle Jörg ( talk) 06:37, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Cleopatra reportedly committed suicide by the bite of an asp. You are welcome to believe or disbelieve Plutarch.
"Snake pit" is often a metaphor for corrupt and vile institutions. Snakes get a bad reputation in the animal world. Large predators (bears and Big Cats in Imperial Rome, and dogs in Nazi concentration camps) have been used more reliably for homicidal purposes.
The biggest danger from snake bite, except for those species most aggressive and venomous is that one does not get first aid and medical treatment swiftly enough. I noticed at one point that death is more likely from an infection from COVID-19 than from rattlesnake bite (early during the plague). Snake bite is not a reliable means of killing people in executions. Pbrower2a ( talk) 01:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Man 45.117.51.76 ( talk) 16:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Venomous snakes typically avoid contact with humans. Given the choice, both retreat. Humans are not prey of any venomous snake, so snakebite is usually a defensive reaction. See also dogs and cats, potential predators of venomous snakes.
A large proportion of persons who have endured a snakebite have deliberately and recklessly confronted a venomous snake are drunk at the time.
This suggests drunkenness and harassment of venomous snakes is a risk factor -- more than would be expected among fishing, hiking, and camping as activities or such activities as farming, ranching, utility work, or oilfield work. Pbrower2a ( talk) 01:39, 31 October 2022 (UTC)