This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I've been doing some bold copyediting in the last 24 hours.
Anyone home? EEng ( talk) 04:14, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not convinced of the value of the removal of dates from image captions. If there were only one trial, then it would be justified, but there were multiple trials and distinguishing the "1949 trial" seems sensible to me. I don't accept that the reader should be forced to work out from the text of the article which trial each image refers to. Other opinions? -- RexxS ( talk) 02:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Some of the recent edits are useful, but a few have caused the article to misrepresent the sources ... I'll try to rectify so that the article more accurately reflects the tone & balance of the sources. -- Noleander ( talk) 13:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
The page numbers are from the first reference: Murray, Robert K. (1955), Red Scare: A Study in National Hysteria, 1919–1920, University of Minnesota Press, ISBN 978-0-313-22673-1. Online version [1]
Note: the first reference in article, to "many Americans were fearful that Bolshevism and anarchism would lead to disruption within the US." - doesn't have page number. Please add page number or remove, as you did the other information referenced to the same source but without page numbers.
MathewTownsend ( talk) 16:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Someone more expert than I perhaps could comment on this matter: a reader will observe that the leadership of the CPUSA was racially integrated (although there were no women among the leadership figures who were on trial). During the era when the trial took place (and for much of U.S. history) most institutions were dominated by whites. The leadership of the two main U.S. political parties was white. The photographs were so interesting because they showed the leadership of the CPUSA to be more integrated than the leadership of the principal US political parties. Even the defense team was integrated! Iss246 ( talk) 19:34, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Some more information needed such as the fact that the US goverment was trying to get rid of popular mass movements and so on, (the idea that there was fear of soviet actions etc is laughable, eg Stalin promised to stay out of the greek civil war and the US supported the anticommunist forces, the communist partisans, mostly peasant and worker based i.e the population hundreds of thousands were killed), maybe have a legacy or aftermath section which has relevant news articles today that reflect upon this period. Just something I thought when reading through.-- JTBX ( talk) 14:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Okay well first is the fact that you have to remeber during this time, the business community hated the New Deal measures, and they were signed mostly in response to mass activism from workers and the population (and they worked, naturally, to curb the worst effects of the depression). After the war there was an opportunity to get rid of mass opposition, if you can find any reason to arrest common people, demonize unions, demonize organisations, arrest blacks etc etc then yes they did it, this should be added, with references of course. I apologise if this makes little sense as I have been very tired lately.
There was certainly hysteria at the time, but you have to remeber public opinion was only in favour because it was whipped up by those in power. In fact if anything, not the communists but the business community wanted to overthrow the goverment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
Second point, here [2] if theres anything else Ill try to add it, its hard to find sources etc, but yes this was my point, a lot of wikipedians are obviously american and so you actually dont get a neutral point of view on a whole range of articles. -- JTBX ( talk) 12:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Ironman: the following text you are proposing is not right: "The Smith Act trials of Communist Party leaders were held from 1949 to 1958 when leaders of the Communist Party of the United States (CPUSA) were accused of violating the Smith Act, ..." That wording is saying that "1949 to 1958" is the period "when leader of the CPUSA ...". Could you please propose improved wording here on the Talk page, so we can take a look and refine it before it goes into the article? Thanks. -- Noleander ( talk) 15:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Ironman: Why do you think both names of the Smith Act should go in the lead, where space is tight, rather than the body? -- Noleander ( talk) 14:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I've been doing some bold copyediting in the last 24 hours.
Anyone home? EEng ( talk) 04:14, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not convinced of the value of the removal of dates from image captions. If there were only one trial, then it would be justified, but there were multiple trials and distinguishing the "1949 trial" seems sensible to me. I don't accept that the reader should be forced to work out from the text of the article which trial each image refers to. Other opinions? -- RexxS ( talk) 02:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Some of the recent edits are useful, but a few have caused the article to misrepresent the sources ... I'll try to rectify so that the article more accurately reflects the tone & balance of the sources. -- Noleander ( talk) 13:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
The page numbers are from the first reference: Murray, Robert K. (1955), Red Scare: A Study in National Hysteria, 1919–1920, University of Minnesota Press, ISBN 978-0-313-22673-1. Online version [1]
Note: the first reference in article, to "many Americans were fearful that Bolshevism and anarchism would lead to disruption within the US." - doesn't have page number. Please add page number or remove, as you did the other information referenced to the same source but without page numbers.
MathewTownsend ( talk) 16:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Someone more expert than I perhaps could comment on this matter: a reader will observe that the leadership of the CPUSA was racially integrated (although there were no women among the leadership figures who were on trial). During the era when the trial took place (and for much of U.S. history) most institutions were dominated by whites. The leadership of the two main U.S. political parties was white. The photographs were so interesting because they showed the leadership of the CPUSA to be more integrated than the leadership of the principal US political parties. Even the defense team was integrated! Iss246 ( talk) 19:34, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Some more information needed such as the fact that the US goverment was trying to get rid of popular mass movements and so on, (the idea that there was fear of soviet actions etc is laughable, eg Stalin promised to stay out of the greek civil war and the US supported the anticommunist forces, the communist partisans, mostly peasant and worker based i.e the population hundreds of thousands were killed), maybe have a legacy or aftermath section which has relevant news articles today that reflect upon this period. Just something I thought when reading through.-- JTBX ( talk) 14:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Okay well first is the fact that you have to remeber during this time, the business community hated the New Deal measures, and they were signed mostly in response to mass activism from workers and the population (and they worked, naturally, to curb the worst effects of the depression). After the war there was an opportunity to get rid of mass opposition, if you can find any reason to arrest common people, demonize unions, demonize organisations, arrest blacks etc etc then yes they did it, this should be added, with references of course. I apologise if this makes little sense as I have been very tired lately.
There was certainly hysteria at the time, but you have to remeber public opinion was only in favour because it was whipped up by those in power. In fact if anything, not the communists but the business community wanted to overthrow the goverment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
Second point, here [2] if theres anything else Ill try to add it, its hard to find sources etc, but yes this was my point, a lot of wikipedians are obviously american and so you actually dont get a neutral point of view on a whole range of articles. -- JTBX ( talk) 12:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Ironman: the following text you are proposing is not right: "The Smith Act trials of Communist Party leaders were held from 1949 to 1958 when leaders of the Communist Party of the United States (CPUSA) were accused of violating the Smith Act, ..." That wording is saying that "1949 to 1958" is the period "when leader of the CPUSA ...". Could you please propose improved wording here on the Talk page, so we can take a look and refine it before it goes into the article? Thanks. -- Noleander ( talk) 15:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Ironman: Why do you think both names of the Smith Act should go in the lead, where space is tight, rather than the body? -- Noleander ( talk) 14:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)