The contents of the Principality of Lower Pannonia page were merged into Slavs in Lower Pannonia on 31 December 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
The contents of the Duchy of Pannonian Croatia page were merged into Slavs in Lower Pannonia on 31 December 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
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No consensus for move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 15:04, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Pannonian Principality → Pannonian Croatia — An IP moved Pannonian Croatia article into Pannonian Principality, without any discussion. Request for returning an old name. Kebeta 12:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. The previous move was a cut-and-paste, and I've fixed the history now. Just say "no" to cut-and-paste moves. - GTBacchus( talk) 19:24, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Pannonian Principality →
Pannonian Croatia — Pannonian Principality is general name for several Pannonian states. For example it can lead to
Balaton Principality which was between the rivers Danube and Drava. Pannonian Croatia was between the rivers Drava and Sava. Like I said above, an IP moved Pannonian Croatia article into Pannonian Principality, without any discussion (and made a big mess in the article deleting article history). Pannonian Principality is also a name for a part of Great Moravia, which add more to confusion.
Kebeta (
talk) 15:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Support as nominator and per above discussion. Kebeta ( talk) 10:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
This article seems to have an unstable title. The last move was in January 2014, after two RM's above. We need a modicum of reliable source review... -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The only historical name for this entity is "Pannonia", period. This article was basically created for the "Pannonian Croatia" a-historical fiction peddled in Croatian public schools. Of course, no such thing existed.. the term "Croatia" itself is a massive anachronism. As far as I'm aware, the term "Croat" is found applied in this period only to the dukes of "Littoral Croatia", not even to their "state" as such. I.e. the only use of the term refers to the "Dukes of the Croats" which was the title of the rulers of the southern duchy.
We barely know anything at all about this entity, it doesn't seem to have been any sort of continuous "state" in the ascribed period.
The text of this article itself is only good for a laugh. Apparently we arrived here in the late 6th century, and then in the 7th century we were subdued by the Avars :) - as opposed to arriving with them as their blasted slaves. -- Director ( talk) 10:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I now merged both articles about Slavic polities into this one, and moved the Roman provinces to their Latin names, leaving disambiguation pages behind. The question remains if this should be further merged with March of Pannonia, perhaps under some general, descriptive title such as Pannonia during the Franks. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 14:24, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but I think this article should be deleted, because there is no reliable source which could make a connection for instance between Ratimir's Slavic polity which emerged around Siscia and Pribina's domains received from the German monarchs along the river Zala. Should we also create an article of Kingdom of Western Europe? It could refer to Charlemagne, Adolphe, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, and Queen Elisabeth II as rulers of this realm, and we could also write of the history of this realm based on books of the history of Portugal, Ireland and Monaco. Borsoka ( talk) 06:30, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Gah.. d'you know how little primary sources there are on all this? For all we really know, none of those entities really existed... -- Director ( talk) 16:26, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Apparently the merge is hopeless, so I've unmerged the articles now. Now we're back to the long-standing consensus version (Feb 2007 - Jan 2014) until new consensus arises. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
What is the academic work which lists Pribina and Kocel among the rulers of "Pannonian Croatia"? Borsoka ( talk) 11:43, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Why was the article moved to "Pannonian Croatia"? The term "Croatia" is a huge anachronism, and even the term "Croats" is not connected in primary sources with "polities" north of the Sava, which themselves usually extended on both sides of the Drava (and were at the time most likely associated with Great Moravia to some degree or another). I'm not comfortable with crippling Wikipedia's coverage of the region in this period through adherence to Croatian-nationalist terminology from the 19th century, i.e. I don't think "Pannonian Croatia" warrants an article at all on enWiki. Imo Pannonia (duchy) would probably be our best option.. -- Director ( talk) 14:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Should the article still be named Pannonian Croatia, despite the fact that this is an outright anachronism? Various better names (and perhaps wider scope) include Lower Pannonia (790–896), Pannonia under the Slavs, Pannonia/Lower Pannonia (duchy). I reject the idea of an infobox, as this was not a (1) succesive polity. In any case, the article should be merged with Principality of Lower Pannonia, though an article regarding the Balaton Principality should be made from the beginning (Pannonia under Pribina and Kocel).-- Zoupan 22:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Isn't it fascinating how a page about Frankish Pannonia with images of Upper Pannonia a few years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lower_Pannonia_(9th_century)&diff=626378974&oldid=626357685 Became a page about Lower Pannonia? May I suggest that anyone wishing to edit pages about Pannonia get their geography straight in their heads first please to avoid contradictions in the copy. Upper Pannonia is not and never has been Lower Pannonia. and Pannonia Major is not Upper Pannonia and Pannonia Minor is not Lower Pannonia. all these terms have different meanings and cover different periods. please sort it all out because as a casual editor reading through just a few related pages the whole thing is currently an utter shambles. 92.40.248.110 ( talk) 09:42, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Whoever in wikipedia is involved in making rules might I suggest two new fundentals to become wikipedia standard. 1 always follow chronological sequence in the copy. 2 always cross-check check geography. 92.40.248.110 ( talk) 09:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The new article is going to be called "Pannonian Slavs" because we lack a general article related to them. It will also include information on the Lower Pannonia principality merging Principality of Lower Pannonia and Duchy of Pannonian Croatia because they are WP:DUP and WP:CFORK which is in heavy contradiction of scholarship as Croatian historiography denies the existence of the Duchy of Pannonian Croatia and doesn't separate them. Politically, ethnically and historically it never existed with the term "Pannonian Croatia" being an early 20th-century historiographical construction which is avoided in the scholarship. Not to mention the existing article is already related to March of Pannonia, we really don't need three-four articles dealing with the same subject - this, titled as Pannonian Slavs, and other, March of Pannonia, are enough to deal with the region of Lower Pannonia. I don't know who created them and with what bogus reasoning, but in all talk pages, there was a discussion dealing with this issue. Now it will be fixed once and for all.-- Miki Filigranski ( talk) 02:49, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I've struck through the edits of a sockpuppet and deleted their last remark as it had no response. This is standard procedure. Doug Weller talk 11:30, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
The merger of Duchy of Pannonian Croatia with Pannonian Slavs and then moved to the newly created article Slavs in Lower Pannonia is inappropriate.
Let me say that there are similar articles dealing with medieval history of modern nations who carry different names (e.g. Grand Principality of Serbia). Should we rename it to “Slavs in Raška” or so?
So, if anybody mergers or renames such articles, he must think about that they should be more accurate and more specific. Otherwise, such a wide, generalized, imprecise, maybe even misleading, “conglomerate” article cannot be acceptable. Let the article “Slavs in Lower Pannonia” talk about Slavic people in (lower or whole) medieval Pannonia and the “Duchy of Pannonian Croatia” or “Principality of Lower Pannonia” about the country. -- Silve rije 22:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
The contents of the Principality of Lower Pannonia page were merged into Slavs in Lower Pannonia on 31 December 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
The contents of the Duchy of Pannonian Croatia page were merged into Slavs in Lower Pannonia on 31 December 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Slavs in Lower Pannonia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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No consensus for move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 15:04, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Pannonian Principality → Pannonian Croatia — An IP moved Pannonian Croatia article into Pannonian Principality, without any discussion. Request for returning an old name. Kebeta 12:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. The previous move was a cut-and-paste, and I've fixed the history now. Just say "no" to cut-and-paste moves. - GTBacchus( talk) 19:24, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Pannonian Principality →
Pannonian Croatia — Pannonian Principality is general name for several Pannonian states. For example it can lead to
Balaton Principality which was between the rivers Danube and Drava. Pannonian Croatia was between the rivers Drava and Sava. Like I said above, an IP moved Pannonian Croatia article into Pannonian Principality, without any discussion (and made a big mess in the article deleting article history). Pannonian Principality is also a name for a part of Great Moravia, which add more to confusion.
Kebeta (
talk) 15:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Support as nominator and per above discussion. Kebeta ( talk) 10:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
This article seems to have an unstable title. The last move was in January 2014, after two RM's above. We need a modicum of reliable source review... -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The only historical name for this entity is "Pannonia", period. This article was basically created for the "Pannonian Croatia" a-historical fiction peddled in Croatian public schools. Of course, no such thing existed.. the term "Croatia" itself is a massive anachronism. As far as I'm aware, the term "Croat" is found applied in this period only to the dukes of "Littoral Croatia", not even to their "state" as such. I.e. the only use of the term refers to the "Dukes of the Croats" which was the title of the rulers of the southern duchy.
We barely know anything at all about this entity, it doesn't seem to have been any sort of continuous "state" in the ascribed period.
The text of this article itself is only good for a laugh. Apparently we arrived here in the late 6th century, and then in the 7th century we were subdued by the Avars :) - as opposed to arriving with them as their blasted slaves. -- Director ( talk) 10:09, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
I now merged both articles about Slavic polities into this one, and moved the Roman provinces to their Latin names, leaving disambiguation pages behind. The question remains if this should be further merged with March of Pannonia, perhaps under some general, descriptive title such as Pannonia during the Franks. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 14:24, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but I think this article should be deleted, because there is no reliable source which could make a connection for instance between Ratimir's Slavic polity which emerged around Siscia and Pribina's domains received from the German monarchs along the river Zala. Should we also create an article of Kingdom of Western Europe? It could refer to Charlemagne, Adolphe, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, and Queen Elisabeth II as rulers of this realm, and we could also write of the history of this realm based on books of the history of Portugal, Ireland and Monaco. Borsoka ( talk) 06:30, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Gah.. d'you know how little primary sources there are on all this? For all we really know, none of those entities really existed... -- Director ( talk) 16:26, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Apparently the merge is hopeless, so I've unmerged the articles now. Now we're back to the long-standing consensus version (Feb 2007 - Jan 2014) until new consensus arises. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 19:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
What is the academic work which lists Pribina and Kocel among the rulers of "Pannonian Croatia"? Borsoka ( talk) 11:43, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Why was the article moved to "Pannonian Croatia"? The term "Croatia" is a huge anachronism, and even the term "Croats" is not connected in primary sources with "polities" north of the Sava, which themselves usually extended on both sides of the Drava (and were at the time most likely associated with Great Moravia to some degree or another). I'm not comfortable with crippling Wikipedia's coverage of the region in this period through adherence to Croatian-nationalist terminology from the 19th century, i.e. I don't think "Pannonian Croatia" warrants an article at all on enWiki. Imo Pannonia (duchy) would probably be our best option.. -- Director ( talk) 14:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Should the article still be named Pannonian Croatia, despite the fact that this is an outright anachronism? Various better names (and perhaps wider scope) include Lower Pannonia (790–896), Pannonia under the Slavs, Pannonia/Lower Pannonia (duchy). I reject the idea of an infobox, as this was not a (1) succesive polity. In any case, the article should be merged with Principality of Lower Pannonia, though an article regarding the Balaton Principality should be made from the beginning (Pannonia under Pribina and Kocel).-- Zoupan 22:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Isn't it fascinating how a page about Frankish Pannonia with images of Upper Pannonia a few years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lower_Pannonia_(9th_century)&diff=626378974&oldid=626357685 Became a page about Lower Pannonia? May I suggest that anyone wishing to edit pages about Pannonia get their geography straight in their heads first please to avoid contradictions in the copy. Upper Pannonia is not and never has been Lower Pannonia. and Pannonia Major is not Upper Pannonia and Pannonia Minor is not Lower Pannonia. all these terms have different meanings and cover different periods. please sort it all out because as a casual editor reading through just a few related pages the whole thing is currently an utter shambles. 92.40.248.110 ( talk) 09:42, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Whoever in wikipedia is involved in making rules might I suggest two new fundentals to become wikipedia standard. 1 always follow chronological sequence in the copy. 2 always cross-check check geography. 92.40.248.110 ( talk) 09:47, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
The new article is going to be called "Pannonian Slavs" because we lack a general article related to them. It will also include information on the Lower Pannonia principality merging Principality of Lower Pannonia and Duchy of Pannonian Croatia because they are WP:DUP and WP:CFORK which is in heavy contradiction of scholarship as Croatian historiography denies the existence of the Duchy of Pannonian Croatia and doesn't separate them. Politically, ethnically and historically it never existed with the term "Pannonian Croatia" being an early 20th-century historiographical construction which is avoided in the scholarship. Not to mention the existing article is already related to March of Pannonia, we really don't need three-four articles dealing with the same subject - this, titled as Pannonian Slavs, and other, March of Pannonia, are enough to deal with the region of Lower Pannonia. I don't know who created them and with what bogus reasoning, but in all talk pages, there was a discussion dealing with this issue. Now it will be fixed once and for all.-- Miki Filigranski ( talk) 02:49, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I've struck through the edits of a sockpuppet and deleted their last remark as it had no response. This is standard procedure. Doug Weller talk 11:30, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
The merger of Duchy of Pannonian Croatia with Pannonian Slavs and then moved to the newly created article Slavs in Lower Pannonia is inappropriate.
Let me say that there are similar articles dealing with medieval history of modern nations who carry different names (e.g. Grand Principality of Serbia). Should we rename it to “Slavs in Raška” or so?
So, if anybody mergers or renames such articles, he must think about that they should be more accurate and more specific. Otherwise, such a wide, generalized, imprecise, maybe even misleading, “conglomerate” article cannot be acceptable. Let the article “Slavs in Lower Pannonia” talk about Slavic people in (lower or whole) medieval Pannonia and the “Duchy of Pannonian Croatia” or “Principality of Lower Pannonia” about the country. -- Silve rije 22:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)