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First of all, many thanks to Midnightblueowl for the recent improvements to the page. It ultimately needed this jump in quality level. Let me express just a few considerations and stylistic tips:
Midnightblueowl, other suggestions for further improvements:
I want to try to explain some part of original quote of Dołęga-Chodakowski in Polish. I hope that it will be helpful for improve translation to English ;)
...i kształcąc się na wzór obcy, staliśmy się na koniec sobie samym cudzymi. - This is exactly a subsentence. Kształcąc in this context meaning in Polish changing form, not educating.
osłabiał w wielu naszych stronach duch niepodległy - wielu naszych stronach in this context do not meaning sides of ours, but sites (very generally places) of our land.
And I also want to mention that Słowiańszczyzna do not meaning people (Slavs), but land of Slavs.
If someone have further questions, just say it there :) -- Wojsław Brożyna ( talk) 10:26, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
The icon in question depicts the martyr (by fire) St. Marina of Antioch.-- Galassi ( talk) 22:25, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Midnightblueowl: Thank you for your recent efforts to improve the article. However, please discuss before making significant changes and deletions. Specifically:
These are the major issues, for now!-- Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 10:41, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I think that Ynglism, Sylenkoism and other branch of Slavic Neopaganism which are NOT Slavic Native Faith should be removed from this artictle after it was renamed to current name. -- Wojsław Brożyna ( talk) 07:55, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Sylenkoism is important part of the article, as it was one of the first organized Slavic Native Faith related religious movements. Plus obviously it's the first organization to use term "Native Faith" in context of Slavic religion. That alone makes it an important part of article. It's historically descendant of Slavic religion revival as at the state of things in 1st half - middle XX century. It's however a reformed form of it - as directly stated in Maha Vira by Sylenko. RUNVira rituals and interpretations of traditions are somewhat dated by now, as they are somewhat a fossilized form of how Ukrainian revival of Slavic religion looked many decades ago plus they are transformed further by Sylenko plus eventual later changes. Pointing out differences other than theological would be beneficial for article. And it had important impact on "non reformed" Slavic Native Faith movement in Ukraine, and therefore on the movement in neighbor countries. In Ukraine RUNVira was a transition stage for many further "non reformed" Slavic Native Faith followers. It is also distinct from Ynglism in being open about the "reformed" aspects of doctrine and doesn't deny it's different in many aspects from historical Slavic cult. Slavicslav ( talk) 15:21, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Does anyone have sources to present how certain Indo-European religions influenced different branches of modern Slavic Native Faith? It also has evident New Age influences in more specific cases. At the moment I recall that Vedas are most common influence on eastern branches. RUNVira also has strong Avestan Zoroastrianism influences. Also Theosophy had an impact on formation of different branches of present day Native Faith in Eastern and Central Europe. Germanic Heathenery influences are also strong among Western Slavic groups. The question is are such topics a subject of any encyclopedic grade sources we can use to improve current article, or we can relay on works more loose in formal aspects. Slavicslav ( talk) 22:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
I write this for the sake of future research, since at the moment I have not found any academic publication treating the subject.
There are Rodnovers who use pyramids as shrines. Alexander Golod started research on pyramid spiritual technology in the 1990s and promoted the building of tens of such pyramids in Russia. The 44m-high Golod pyramid of Moscow was destroyed on 29 May 2017 by the strong winds which hit the city that day; the hollow, wooden-framed pyramid collapsed right after the Vedic/Rodnover shaman Radmir held a rite for the ancestors inside of it ( Article: "Shaman claims credit for the Moscow pyramid destroyed by hurricane winds").
Another spiritual movement led by Valery Uvarov resurrects ancient Egyptian (and other civilisations') spiritual technology and is building a settlement with pyramid shrines in Tomsk ( Video: "Pyramid Complex in Tomsk proposed by Valery Uvarov and Project 12"). Official website.
Of course, these movements are not necessarily classifiable as Rodnovery, but as demonstrated by Radmir's case some Rodnovers are part of them.-- Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 02:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Wojsław Brożyna please provide sources that support existence of use of terms "Prav, Jav and Nav" outside Book of Veles in historical and folkloric sources as names for "upper", "middle" and "bottom" parts of the world. I'm not aware of existence of such division outside of Book of Veles, as that's the written "source" where it was used as the first time and later diffused to other groups, that not necessarily support Book of Veles. So far I don't see how "it is not true - this interpretation is shared by adherents who criticize Book of Veles". If they use such division and only Book of Veles is an original source for this triad of names used together they at least partially support that source. Even if all of those names are a proper words connected with Slavic languages and mythology, context of use is important here. Slavicslav ( talk) 06:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Eckhardt Etheling what's your opinion on the subject in question? Slavicslav ( talk) 19:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
OK, after last edit of caption in question by Wojsław Brożyna I think we have consensus on that topic. I don't have any further objections. Thank you for your nderstanding. Slavicslav ( talk) 21:16, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Term "Rodnovery" did came from Russian speaking Internet users, followed later by some Serbians (article claiming it to be "widespread" cited on this Wikipedia page is written by Serbian author BTW). Plus the only "source" supporting it's "widespread" among literature and groups is just a short article on Svevlad page and is not even reachable now. And then diffused to some use by younger generations of Natvie Slavic Faith followers online outside of Russian and Serbian communities. And that's mainly post 2010 thing, with start of bigger magnitude around 2012. Mainly due to citing Wikipedia. That's BTW also around time when Ynglist movement came to the greatest Internet popularity among many "internet followers" of Slavic Native Faith. It could had some influence on that too.
Older generations in most Slavic countries I'm aware of still prefer other terms. So I don't see how that term is supposed to not come from Russian language. It clearly did come from Russian. And it came to Russian as it is literally a plural form of Rodnover - Native Faith follower and came to Russian as a translation of Ukrainian "Ridna Vira" as explained by Scott Simpson. Later by unknown reasons some pople started to use it as same way "Heathenry" or "Druidry" is used. As singular form, but it's clearly breaking the way "Druidry" and "Heathenry" terms were formed by adding a postfix "-ry". Just compare - Druid --> Druidry, Heathen --> Heathenry. SO Druidry --> Druid, Heathenry --> Heathen, following this rule we should have Rodnovery --> Rodnove[sic!]. But ther is no such a word in use. If "Rodnovery" did originate the same way it should look more like "Rodnoverry"/"Rodnoverery"/"Rodnoveryry". Term "Rodnovery" later started to had more widespread usage over the Internet in recent years mainly dues to it's usage on at Wikipedia page and it's claims of it being "wildly used" based just on one single article.
Just compare article history and how many times was it used in article with google trends since 2004 - https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=rodnovery. Note that part of such results may be just people looking for "rodnovery" as latin transliteration of plural form of Russian name for a Slavic Native Faith follower - a Rodnover.
The other isue that in numerous Slavic languages forms "rod" "rodna" are not present, and they are "rod" - pl: "ród", ua:"rid", "rodna" - pl:"rodzima", be:"rodnaya", ua:"ridna" to give an example of Polish, Belarussian and Ukrainian languages. Same goes for "vera". Not to mention opposition to term alone in case of groups in different countries. I haven't seen a source written in english that came from many groups that even mentioned term "Rodnovery" and are using "Native Faith", "Slavjanstwo" and other.
Plus how is anyone going to ascertain terms like "widely accepted among followers" as there are really huge problems to state how many followers does Slavic Native Faith has in total? Numbers different sources provide are just estimations and they tend to differ in numbers by around 90-100 times in some cases. Plus wow much is "wildly"? What if just really small fraction of them accept that term in reality? How is one going to research that topic?
So Wikipedia article is responsible partially for more recent "widespread". That's a kind of a vicious circle. To sum up so far claims about that term "being originally widespread outside Russian related English language sources" and "not coming from Russian language" are very dubious. Slavicslav ( talk) 08:15, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Eckhardt Etheling stop editing this discussion page section title. I know much better than you what was my original question. Since when that became accepted practice on Wikipedia? "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page." as stated at Talk_page_guidelines. You did change the meaning so far. I'm reverting it to former shape. If you see grammar mistakes inform me 1st before editing to avoid changing meaning of my words. Slavicslav ( talk) 20:37, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Slavicslav: I have not deleted the paragraph that you added regarding the statement, for now. Veleslav's blog is a primary source and therefore it is not considered good for Wikipedia. Please provide a better source; maybe some Russian academic has published some article about the subject. Otherwise I'll have to delete the paragraph, despite its relevance to the topic.-- Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 16:03, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Wojsław Brożyna: do you have an access to that publication? I'm curious if there is anything we can use to improve current article in that publication. I see a discussion here, from the last year, about "double faith" in the context of publications by Boris Rybakov. It's been a while since I have read his book "Ancient Slavic Paganism". However I remember he had tendency to jump too easily to a really detailed conclusions based on very skimpy archaeological and folkloric material. Maybe Moszyński could be better here? I mean in a context of presenting elements of Native Faith that survived since pre-Christian times. I'm not negating influence Rybakov's works had over many of branches of modern Slavic Native Faith, and mentions about such should be present in article. Just looking for possibly better descriptions of elements surviving in "double belief". Plus Moszyński (if I'm not mistaken) refers to wider area of Slavic lands then Rybakov. Slavicslav ( talk) 22:19, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
In continuation of the topic " Ynglism and other non-Rodnover movements of Slavic Neopaganism". Already discussed by Wojsław Brożyna, Midnightblueowl, Eckhardt Etheling, Slavicslav the correctness of including in this article the movements such as the "reformed" Ynglism, Peterburgian Vedism, and Native Ukrainian National Faith (Sylenkoism). And due they are treated as movements within Rodnovery by some academic publications, it's OK.
Only non- Polytheistic reconstructionism: Rerikhism ( Agni Yoga), Ivanovism, Ringing Cedars' Anastasianism and others usuelly are treated as original neoreligions, new religious movements, yes, as "Slavic Neopaganism", but outside of "Slavic Native Faith" (non-Rodnover) or related with it (and Agni Yoga is even further, as an neo-oriental teaching). That's why, what for about everyone here, like the Russian Wikipedia (see: Славянское неоязычество), we need to create the article Slavic Neopaganism about all branches (and briefly about Rodnovery too) and transfer some of the material from this article to it. After all, for example, Druidry (modern) isn’t included any new syncretic religions among the Celtics. DayakSibiriak ( talk) 23:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Note about recent development on the Russian Wikipedia: There has been a recent development in the Russian Wikipedia, where formerly "Rodnovery" and "Slavic Neopaganism" had separate articles, with the former dedicated exclusively to the self-claimed most purist Slavic traditionalist and reconstructionist currents while the latter dedicated to the most New Age and syncretic currents (Ynglists, Anastasians, et al.). Some users here pushed for adopting the same model and enforcing this partisan distinction (promoted by the self-proclaimed purist Rodnovers). Between December 2020 and February 2021 the two articles of the Russian Wikipedia were merged as the contributors convened that the two are synonyms and the distinction was made by some groups to exclude others from the definition.-- Æo ( talk) 21:03, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The deletion discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Slavic Native Faith. Krakkos ( talk) 11:58, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:52, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Can we strip some content here, or can we move it to a separate page? I've seen a warning before on pages that are too long - how do I add such a message? QueensanditsCrazy ( talk) 02:16, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
A separate article about the symbol "Kolovrat" is already being written. Noraskulk ( talk) 07:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Author of this article has absolutely no idea about Slavic mythology and religion nor what even rodnovery is. 90% of this article is about pseudo-Slavic sects like Ynglists that has not much common with "normal" rodnovery nor Slavic Native Faith. Author is pushing Jan Hanuš or Mathieu-Colas imaginations as serious science and making people believe in it (also in Deities of Slavic religion which is in terrible state) which proves he absolutely has no idea about what he is writting and just pushing random stuff from the internet. I just restored Krodo (Saxon god (most likely pseudo-god)) which was made redirect to Rod because of Hanus believed Krodo was major Slavic god (but even him didn't said anything about Rod). Author pushes pseudo-science like Book of Veles or Slavic Vedas. Author suggested that Rod is some major god (suggested by Rybakov), but it was denied by majority of scholars and it is not a thing in rodnovery, most of the rodnovers believe in him as god of family. Most of things written in this article have nothing to do with Slavic Native Faith and should be moved to pages dedicated to Ynglists and other New religious movements. Sławobóg ( talk) 18:18, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
An example is the division of articles on Celtic neopaganism. The first ( Celtic neopaganism) is about everyone, the second ( Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism) is only about Reconstructing stream. This can be done here or within one article to divide Recostructionusts-traditionalists and other sincretists-modernists (Ivanovism, Yngliism, Vedism). Will less problems. DayakSibiriak ( talk) 05:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Let's check once again, is there in sources the Reconstructionist type of Rodnover movements? If yes, as least will divide them within the article. DayakSibiriak ( talk) 15:09, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Note about recent development on the Russian Wikipedia: There has been a recent development in the Russian Wikipedia, where formerly "Rodnovery" and "Slavic Neopaganism" had separate articles, with the former dedicated exclusively to the self-claimed most purist Slavic traditionalist and reconstructionist currents while the latter dedicated to the most New Age and syncretic currents (Ynglists, Anastasians, et al.). Some users here pushed for adopting the same model and enforcing this partisan distinction (promoted by the self-proclaimed purist Rodnovers). Between December 2020 and February 2021 the two articles of the Russian Wikipedia were merged as the contributors convened that the two are synonyms and the distinction was made by some groups to exclude others from the definition.-- Æo ( talk) 21:03, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Size does matter. If you can hardly populate a medium-size Ukraynian town with all of the practitioners (leaving New Age "seekers" on a quest and weekend fans aside), then this article is WAAAY to massive. If nothing is said about even approximate figures, it makes it look like a pseudo-topic blown out of proportion by supporters, and then it borders on promotional practices prohibited on Wikipedia. So yes, numbers do matter, even if, understandably, there aren't any reliable census figures. Also, as seen in the comment above this one, as with any sect or religion, the definition is very important - and very fluent. Some would rather die than accept that the sect most similar to theirs belongs to the same religious stream. -- Funny enough, now I noticed: it's 9/11, "Sect Gone Mad Day". The Universe helping me drive home my point :))) So, how many? Arminden ( talk) 14:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Nizhni Novgorod's Minin University's
Colloquium heptaplomeres is a journal dedicated to scholarly studies about Neopaganism. It contains many interesting academic articles about Rodnovery and other forms of Neopaganism, mostly in Russia but also in other countries. The versions of the papers of said journal uploaded on the CyberLeninka website do not have numbered pages. Yet, in some other sources citing Colloquium heptaplomeres' articles I have noted that pages are reported. May someone help finding out the pages' numbers?
DayakSibiriak, do you have any idea on how to find the pages' numbers?--
Æo (
talk)
13:33, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Problem solved. In the downloadable versions of the papers the pages are numbered.-- Æo ( talk) 13:46, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
I've reverted the infobox religious group. The reasons are the same as those of 9 December 2020, namely that it presents an oversimplified picture of the movement. The movement is too varied to be reduced to the representation given by such infobox. The field "founders" gives two Polish and one Ukrainian authors who were indeed among the first theoreticians but were not the only ones, and some movements (notably those in Russia) may not recognise them as their initiators. The field "scriptures" gives the "Book of Veles", but there are actually various books, often focus of different currents within the movement, and not all Rodnovers recognise the Book of Veles as the main holy book of Rodnovery. All the other fields are tautological: "regions with significant populations" → "Slavic countries"; "languages" → "Slavic"; "related ethnic groups" → "Slavs"; "religion" → "modern Paganism".-- Æo ( talk) 12:27, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
I see it been 4 years since it has been disputed and
I think there is serious need to finally address this issue as some parts of it might pottentially be politically motivated. Mr Very Knowledgeable ( talk) 15:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
I want to add further that Scott Simpson in his book claims that Slavic Native Faith term originated in Ukrainian circles as inspired by name of religious movement created by Lev Sylenko (which is a syncretic religion partially based on pagan traditions but theological part was officially "reformed" by Sylenko making RUNVira a separate religious movement from pagan reconstructionism) "RUNVira" - where R stands for "Ridna" meaning native and "Vira" means faith. And later "ridna vira" term spread to groups in other countries creating in Polish language term "rodzima wiara" (literally Native Faith) and in Russia term "rodnoverie" (literally Native Faith). Russian term for follower of "rodnoverie" is "rodnover" which has plural form "rodnovery". Mr Very Knowledgeable ( talk) 15:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
"...discourse in the blogosphere (Etling et al. 2010) and within particular web communities, such as Rodnovery (Aitamurto 2007). At the same time, the structure...".
"The Book has had the key role in the creation of Rodnovery... a new form of reception followed the appearance of Rodnovery in Serbia early in the 21st century. According to the available information, The Book of Veles plays no significant role in the Rodnovery of Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, and Croatia (Polish translation appeared as late as 2013/2014)... About Ukrainian Rodnovery...".
"Today the Slavic contemporary Paganism or Rodnovery is also present in the Balkans, but fifteen years ago Slavic identity there was associated...".
"It is argued in this study that contemporary Rodnovers (practitioners of Slavic Native Faith, or Rodnovery) revive ethnographic and historical sources...".
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:22, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
This article needs to be cut down in size and consolidated. There is an overabundance of images, and many of the passages can be shortened. As it is now, the article is very long and tiresome to read, also difficult to navigate. First step would be to either remove the images or place them in a gallery. I may come back to this article in the future. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:C63:89A8:5F35:7103 ( talk) 22:35, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
"The long is no problem at an online encyclopedy"(sic, editor DayakSibiriak, 2020) and
"We do not measure the size of an article by the number of people who give a damn about the subject, but by whether there is valid, useful information that is well-sourced"(editor Ravenswing, 2021). "Too long" and "too detailed" are relative, and in any case Rodnovery (Slavic Neopaganism) is a big movement which covers all Eastern and Southeastern Europe, well documented in academic literature even in its tiny currents — and such abundant documentation testifies the importance of the topic. Moreover, as I myself already said before in some comment, I think that the practice of splitting articles is detrimental (though widespread in Wikipedia, alas!), as it produces incomplete side articles which tend to be forsaken and prey to unchecked vandalism. The current version of the article is well written and sourced but is by no means complete, as there are other important currents and aspects of the Rodnovery which need to be addressed, and the citations need to be re-organised so that each dotted sentence has its citation (currently they are mostly organised by paragraph). When the article will reach a more complete state, maybe we will consider splitting out and shrinking the section about "denominations". In any case, for short articles with few images, easy-to-read and easy-to-navigate, there is Simple English Wikipedia.-- Æo ( talk) 10:07, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | Some references in this article and related ones do not report pages but the Latin word passim. This means "passing", "extending", "throughout", "dispersed", "without an order", and is used when either the idea which the reference supports is discussed at different points throughout the source text, or, and this is the case for most of the uses in this article, when the pages of the source text are not numbered (they are mostly short papers), and therefore one has to read through the entire extension of the text to find the supported information. |
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First of all, many thanks to Midnightblueowl for the recent improvements to the page. It ultimately needed this jump in quality level. Let me express just a few considerations and stylistic tips:
Midnightblueowl, other suggestions for further improvements:
I want to try to explain some part of original quote of Dołęga-Chodakowski in Polish. I hope that it will be helpful for improve translation to English ;)
...i kształcąc się na wzór obcy, staliśmy się na koniec sobie samym cudzymi. - This is exactly a subsentence. Kształcąc in this context meaning in Polish changing form, not educating.
osłabiał w wielu naszych stronach duch niepodległy - wielu naszych stronach in this context do not meaning sides of ours, but sites (very generally places) of our land.
And I also want to mention that Słowiańszczyzna do not meaning people (Slavs), but land of Slavs.
If someone have further questions, just say it there :) -- Wojsław Brożyna ( talk) 10:26, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
The icon in question depicts the martyr (by fire) St. Marina of Antioch.-- Galassi ( talk) 22:25, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Midnightblueowl: Thank you for your recent efforts to improve the article. However, please discuss before making significant changes and deletions. Specifically:
These are the major issues, for now!-- Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 10:41, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I think that Ynglism, Sylenkoism and other branch of Slavic Neopaganism which are NOT Slavic Native Faith should be removed from this artictle after it was renamed to current name. -- Wojsław Brożyna ( talk) 07:55, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Sylenkoism is important part of the article, as it was one of the first organized Slavic Native Faith related religious movements. Plus obviously it's the first organization to use term "Native Faith" in context of Slavic religion. That alone makes it an important part of article. It's historically descendant of Slavic religion revival as at the state of things in 1st half - middle XX century. It's however a reformed form of it - as directly stated in Maha Vira by Sylenko. RUNVira rituals and interpretations of traditions are somewhat dated by now, as they are somewhat a fossilized form of how Ukrainian revival of Slavic religion looked many decades ago plus they are transformed further by Sylenko plus eventual later changes. Pointing out differences other than theological would be beneficial for article. And it had important impact on "non reformed" Slavic Native Faith movement in Ukraine, and therefore on the movement in neighbor countries. In Ukraine RUNVira was a transition stage for many further "non reformed" Slavic Native Faith followers. It is also distinct from Ynglism in being open about the "reformed" aspects of doctrine and doesn't deny it's different in many aspects from historical Slavic cult. Slavicslav ( talk) 15:21, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Does anyone have sources to present how certain Indo-European religions influenced different branches of modern Slavic Native Faith? It also has evident New Age influences in more specific cases. At the moment I recall that Vedas are most common influence on eastern branches. RUNVira also has strong Avestan Zoroastrianism influences. Also Theosophy had an impact on formation of different branches of present day Native Faith in Eastern and Central Europe. Germanic Heathenery influences are also strong among Western Slavic groups. The question is are such topics a subject of any encyclopedic grade sources we can use to improve current article, or we can relay on works more loose in formal aspects. Slavicslav ( talk) 22:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
I write this for the sake of future research, since at the moment I have not found any academic publication treating the subject.
There are Rodnovers who use pyramids as shrines. Alexander Golod started research on pyramid spiritual technology in the 1990s and promoted the building of tens of such pyramids in Russia. The 44m-high Golod pyramid of Moscow was destroyed on 29 May 2017 by the strong winds which hit the city that day; the hollow, wooden-framed pyramid collapsed right after the Vedic/Rodnover shaman Radmir held a rite for the ancestors inside of it ( Article: "Shaman claims credit for the Moscow pyramid destroyed by hurricane winds").
Another spiritual movement led by Valery Uvarov resurrects ancient Egyptian (and other civilisations') spiritual technology and is building a settlement with pyramid shrines in Tomsk ( Video: "Pyramid Complex in Tomsk proposed by Valery Uvarov and Project 12"). Official website.
Of course, these movements are not necessarily classifiable as Rodnovery, but as demonstrated by Radmir's case some Rodnovers are part of them.-- Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 02:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Wojsław Brożyna please provide sources that support existence of use of terms "Prav, Jav and Nav" outside Book of Veles in historical and folkloric sources as names for "upper", "middle" and "bottom" parts of the world. I'm not aware of existence of such division outside of Book of Veles, as that's the written "source" where it was used as the first time and later diffused to other groups, that not necessarily support Book of Veles. So far I don't see how "it is not true - this interpretation is shared by adherents who criticize Book of Veles". If they use such division and only Book of Veles is an original source for this triad of names used together they at least partially support that source. Even if all of those names are a proper words connected with Slavic languages and mythology, context of use is important here. Slavicslav ( talk) 06:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Eckhardt Etheling what's your opinion on the subject in question? Slavicslav ( talk) 19:10, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
OK, after last edit of caption in question by Wojsław Brożyna I think we have consensus on that topic. I don't have any further objections. Thank you for your nderstanding. Slavicslav ( talk) 21:16, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Term "Rodnovery" did came from Russian speaking Internet users, followed later by some Serbians (article claiming it to be "widespread" cited on this Wikipedia page is written by Serbian author BTW). Plus the only "source" supporting it's "widespread" among literature and groups is just a short article on Svevlad page and is not even reachable now. And then diffused to some use by younger generations of Natvie Slavic Faith followers online outside of Russian and Serbian communities. And that's mainly post 2010 thing, with start of bigger magnitude around 2012. Mainly due to citing Wikipedia. That's BTW also around time when Ynglist movement came to the greatest Internet popularity among many "internet followers" of Slavic Native Faith. It could had some influence on that too.
Older generations in most Slavic countries I'm aware of still prefer other terms. So I don't see how that term is supposed to not come from Russian language. It clearly did come from Russian. And it came to Russian as it is literally a plural form of Rodnover - Native Faith follower and came to Russian as a translation of Ukrainian "Ridna Vira" as explained by Scott Simpson. Later by unknown reasons some pople started to use it as same way "Heathenry" or "Druidry" is used. As singular form, but it's clearly breaking the way "Druidry" and "Heathenry" terms were formed by adding a postfix "-ry". Just compare - Druid --> Druidry, Heathen --> Heathenry. SO Druidry --> Druid, Heathenry --> Heathen, following this rule we should have Rodnovery --> Rodnove[sic!]. But ther is no such a word in use. If "Rodnovery" did originate the same way it should look more like "Rodnoverry"/"Rodnoverery"/"Rodnoveryry". Term "Rodnovery" later started to had more widespread usage over the Internet in recent years mainly dues to it's usage on at Wikipedia page and it's claims of it being "wildly used" based just on one single article.
Just compare article history and how many times was it used in article with google trends since 2004 - https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=rodnovery. Note that part of such results may be just people looking for "rodnovery" as latin transliteration of plural form of Russian name for a Slavic Native Faith follower - a Rodnover.
The other isue that in numerous Slavic languages forms "rod" "rodna" are not present, and they are "rod" - pl: "ród", ua:"rid", "rodna" - pl:"rodzima", be:"rodnaya", ua:"ridna" to give an example of Polish, Belarussian and Ukrainian languages. Same goes for "vera". Not to mention opposition to term alone in case of groups in different countries. I haven't seen a source written in english that came from many groups that even mentioned term "Rodnovery" and are using "Native Faith", "Slavjanstwo" and other.
Plus how is anyone going to ascertain terms like "widely accepted among followers" as there are really huge problems to state how many followers does Slavic Native Faith has in total? Numbers different sources provide are just estimations and they tend to differ in numbers by around 90-100 times in some cases. Plus wow much is "wildly"? What if just really small fraction of them accept that term in reality? How is one going to research that topic?
So Wikipedia article is responsible partially for more recent "widespread". That's a kind of a vicious circle. To sum up so far claims about that term "being originally widespread outside Russian related English language sources" and "not coming from Russian language" are very dubious. Slavicslav ( talk) 08:15, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Eckhardt Etheling stop editing this discussion page section title. I know much better than you what was my original question. Since when that became accepted practice on Wikipedia? "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page." as stated at Talk_page_guidelines. You did change the meaning so far. I'm reverting it to former shape. If you see grammar mistakes inform me 1st before editing to avoid changing meaning of my words. Slavicslav ( talk) 20:37, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Slavicslav: I have not deleted the paragraph that you added regarding the statement, for now. Veleslav's blog is a primary source and therefore it is not considered good for Wikipedia. Please provide a better source; maybe some Russian academic has published some article about the subject. Otherwise I'll have to delete the paragraph, despite its relevance to the topic.-- Eckhardt Etheling ( talk) 16:03, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
@ Wojsław Brożyna: do you have an access to that publication? I'm curious if there is anything we can use to improve current article in that publication. I see a discussion here, from the last year, about "double faith" in the context of publications by Boris Rybakov. It's been a while since I have read his book "Ancient Slavic Paganism". However I remember he had tendency to jump too easily to a really detailed conclusions based on very skimpy archaeological and folkloric material. Maybe Moszyński could be better here? I mean in a context of presenting elements of Native Faith that survived since pre-Christian times. I'm not negating influence Rybakov's works had over many of branches of modern Slavic Native Faith, and mentions about such should be present in article. Just looking for possibly better descriptions of elements surviving in "double belief". Plus Moszyński (if I'm not mistaken) refers to wider area of Slavic lands then Rybakov. Slavicslav ( talk) 22:19, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
In continuation of the topic " Ynglism and other non-Rodnover movements of Slavic Neopaganism". Already discussed by Wojsław Brożyna, Midnightblueowl, Eckhardt Etheling, Slavicslav the correctness of including in this article the movements such as the "reformed" Ynglism, Peterburgian Vedism, and Native Ukrainian National Faith (Sylenkoism). And due they are treated as movements within Rodnovery by some academic publications, it's OK.
Only non- Polytheistic reconstructionism: Rerikhism ( Agni Yoga), Ivanovism, Ringing Cedars' Anastasianism and others usuelly are treated as original neoreligions, new religious movements, yes, as "Slavic Neopaganism", but outside of "Slavic Native Faith" (non-Rodnover) or related with it (and Agni Yoga is even further, as an neo-oriental teaching). That's why, what for about everyone here, like the Russian Wikipedia (see: Славянское неоязычество), we need to create the article Slavic Neopaganism about all branches (and briefly about Rodnovery too) and transfer some of the material from this article to it. After all, for example, Druidry (modern) isn’t included any new syncretic religions among the Celtics. DayakSibiriak ( talk) 23:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Note about recent development on the Russian Wikipedia: There has been a recent development in the Russian Wikipedia, where formerly "Rodnovery" and "Slavic Neopaganism" had separate articles, with the former dedicated exclusively to the self-claimed most purist Slavic traditionalist and reconstructionist currents while the latter dedicated to the most New Age and syncretic currents (Ynglists, Anastasians, et al.). Some users here pushed for adopting the same model and enforcing this partisan distinction (promoted by the self-proclaimed purist Rodnovers). Between December 2020 and February 2021 the two articles of the Russian Wikipedia were merged as the contributors convened that the two are synonyms and the distinction was made by some groups to exclude others from the definition.-- Æo ( talk) 21:03, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The deletion discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Slavic Native Faith. Krakkos ( talk) 11:58, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:52, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Can we strip some content here, or can we move it to a separate page? I've seen a warning before on pages that are too long - how do I add such a message? QueensanditsCrazy ( talk) 02:16, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
A separate article about the symbol "Kolovrat" is already being written. Noraskulk ( talk) 07:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Author of this article has absolutely no idea about Slavic mythology and religion nor what even rodnovery is. 90% of this article is about pseudo-Slavic sects like Ynglists that has not much common with "normal" rodnovery nor Slavic Native Faith. Author is pushing Jan Hanuš or Mathieu-Colas imaginations as serious science and making people believe in it (also in Deities of Slavic religion which is in terrible state) which proves he absolutely has no idea about what he is writting and just pushing random stuff from the internet. I just restored Krodo (Saxon god (most likely pseudo-god)) which was made redirect to Rod because of Hanus believed Krodo was major Slavic god (but even him didn't said anything about Rod). Author pushes pseudo-science like Book of Veles or Slavic Vedas. Author suggested that Rod is some major god (suggested by Rybakov), but it was denied by majority of scholars and it is not a thing in rodnovery, most of the rodnovers believe in him as god of family. Most of things written in this article have nothing to do with Slavic Native Faith and should be moved to pages dedicated to Ynglists and other New religious movements. Sławobóg ( talk) 18:18, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
An example is the division of articles on Celtic neopaganism. The first ( Celtic neopaganism) is about everyone, the second ( Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism) is only about Reconstructing stream. This can be done here or within one article to divide Recostructionusts-traditionalists and other sincretists-modernists (Ivanovism, Yngliism, Vedism). Will less problems. DayakSibiriak ( talk) 05:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Let's check once again, is there in sources the Reconstructionist type of Rodnover movements? If yes, as least will divide them within the article. DayakSibiriak ( talk) 15:09, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Note about recent development on the Russian Wikipedia: There has been a recent development in the Russian Wikipedia, where formerly "Rodnovery" and "Slavic Neopaganism" had separate articles, with the former dedicated exclusively to the self-claimed most purist Slavic traditionalist and reconstructionist currents while the latter dedicated to the most New Age and syncretic currents (Ynglists, Anastasians, et al.). Some users here pushed for adopting the same model and enforcing this partisan distinction (promoted by the self-proclaimed purist Rodnovers). Between December 2020 and February 2021 the two articles of the Russian Wikipedia were merged as the contributors convened that the two are synonyms and the distinction was made by some groups to exclude others from the definition.-- Æo ( talk) 21:03, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Size does matter. If you can hardly populate a medium-size Ukraynian town with all of the practitioners (leaving New Age "seekers" on a quest and weekend fans aside), then this article is WAAAY to massive. If nothing is said about even approximate figures, it makes it look like a pseudo-topic blown out of proportion by supporters, and then it borders on promotional practices prohibited on Wikipedia. So yes, numbers do matter, even if, understandably, there aren't any reliable census figures. Also, as seen in the comment above this one, as with any sect or religion, the definition is very important - and very fluent. Some would rather die than accept that the sect most similar to theirs belongs to the same religious stream. -- Funny enough, now I noticed: it's 9/11, "Sect Gone Mad Day". The Universe helping me drive home my point :))) So, how many? Arminden ( talk) 14:30, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Nizhni Novgorod's Minin University's
Colloquium heptaplomeres is a journal dedicated to scholarly studies about Neopaganism. It contains many interesting academic articles about Rodnovery and other forms of Neopaganism, mostly in Russia but also in other countries. The versions of the papers of said journal uploaded on the CyberLeninka website do not have numbered pages. Yet, in some other sources citing Colloquium heptaplomeres' articles I have noted that pages are reported. May someone help finding out the pages' numbers?
DayakSibiriak, do you have any idea on how to find the pages' numbers?--
Æo (
talk)
13:33, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Problem solved. In the downloadable versions of the papers the pages are numbered.-- Æo ( talk) 13:46, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
I've reverted the infobox religious group. The reasons are the same as those of 9 December 2020, namely that it presents an oversimplified picture of the movement. The movement is too varied to be reduced to the representation given by such infobox. The field "founders" gives two Polish and one Ukrainian authors who were indeed among the first theoreticians but were not the only ones, and some movements (notably those in Russia) may not recognise them as their initiators. The field "scriptures" gives the "Book of Veles", but there are actually various books, often focus of different currents within the movement, and not all Rodnovers recognise the Book of Veles as the main holy book of Rodnovery. All the other fields are tautological: "regions with significant populations" → "Slavic countries"; "languages" → "Slavic"; "related ethnic groups" → "Slavs"; "religion" → "modern Paganism".-- Æo ( talk) 12:27, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
I see it been 4 years since it has been disputed and
I think there is serious need to finally address this issue as some parts of it might pottentially be politically motivated. Mr Very Knowledgeable ( talk) 15:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
I want to add further that Scott Simpson in his book claims that Slavic Native Faith term originated in Ukrainian circles as inspired by name of religious movement created by Lev Sylenko (which is a syncretic religion partially based on pagan traditions but theological part was officially "reformed" by Sylenko making RUNVira a separate religious movement from pagan reconstructionism) "RUNVira" - where R stands for "Ridna" meaning native and "Vira" means faith. And later "ridna vira" term spread to groups in other countries creating in Polish language term "rodzima wiara" (literally Native Faith) and in Russia term "rodnoverie" (literally Native Faith). Russian term for follower of "rodnoverie" is "rodnover" which has plural form "rodnovery". Mr Very Knowledgeable ( talk) 15:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
"...discourse in the blogosphere (Etling et al. 2010) and within particular web communities, such as Rodnovery (Aitamurto 2007). At the same time, the structure...".
"The Book has had the key role in the creation of Rodnovery... a new form of reception followed the appearance of Rodnovery in Serbia early in the 21st century. According to the available information, The Book of Veles plays no significant role in the Rodnovery of Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, and Croatia (Polish translation appeared as late as 2013/2014)... About Ukrainian Rodnovery...".
"Today the Slavic contemporary Paganism or Rodnovery is also present in the Balkans, but fifteen years ago Slavic identity there was associated...".
"It is argued in this study that contemporary Rodnovers (practitioners of Slavic Native Faith, or Rodnovery) revive ethnographic and historical sources...".
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:22, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
This article needs to be cut down in size and consolidated. There is an overabundance of images, and many of the passages can be shortened. As it is now, the article is very long and tiresome to read, also difficult to navigate. First step would be to either remove the images or place them in a gallery. I may come back to this article in the future. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:C63:89A8:5F35:7103 ( talk) 22:35, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
"The long is no problem at an online encyclopedy"(sic, editor DayakSibiriak, 2020) and
"We do not measure the size of an article by the number of people who give a damn about the subject, but by whether there is valid, useful information that is well-sourced"(editor Ravenswing, 2021). "Too long" and "too detailed" are relative, and in any case Rodnovery (Slavic Neopaganism) is a big movement which covers all Eastern and Southeastern Europe, well documented in academic literature even in its tiny currents — and such abundant documentation testifies the importance of the topic. Moreover, as I myself already said before in some comment, I think that the practice of splitting articles is detrimental (though widespread in Wikipedia, alas!), as it produces incomplete side articles which tend to be forsaken and prey to unchecked vandalism. The current version of the article is well written and sourced but is by no means complete, as there are other important currents and aspects of the Rodnovery which need to be addressed, and the citations need to be re-organised so that each dotted sentence has its citation (currently they are mostly organised by paragraph). When the article will reach a more complete state, maybe we will consider splitting out and shrinking the section about "denominations". In any case, for short articles with few images, easy-to-read and easy-to-navigate, there is Simple English Wikipedia.-- Æo ( talk) 10:07, 24 April 2022 (UTC)