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So why arent the jesus skins mentioned? http://www.jesusskins.de http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4-vGNr6m4M&mode=related&search= Shows that christians can shave as well ;) 212.17.87.133 10:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
'Skinheads with even shorter hair and less emphasis on traditional styles grew in numbers and grabbed media attention, mostly as a result of their involvement with football hooliganism.' This is not how I remember it. This sentence needs a citation I think. Bkpip 03:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Surely we can do better. First, Wikipedia is not a dictionary, so please don't treat it as one. My main complaint about the above, though, isn't that it's short--it's that, in order to be made into something useful, it's going to have to be totally rewritten. "Too short"? And no one is called a skinhead just for being baldheaded. The second sentence is just too brief to be able to be accurate. Besides, the article should reside at skinhead... -- LMS
The Selector are a ska revivalist band, not to mention that all of them are black (seems a bit ironic to list them on the "skinhead" page)
1. You need to work on your understanding of the word ironic. 2. Half the skinheads I knew back in the day, before the look became dominated by neo-nazis, were black. If you actually read the article you'll see that early skinhead culture was heavily influenced by black music and styles. 3. I was one of those early 80's skinheads, and revivalist ska was listened to just as much as early ska and northern soul. 4. Don't confuse being a true skinhead with the rock listening, neo-nazis who hijacked the name. Bkpip 03:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
My friend says he is a "Neo-nazi punk." Is there a different between a skinhead and a "neo-nazi punk?"
...yes
I'm sorry, but your friend is stupid, and you are too if you have relationships with nazi. --Aishe 22:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Very, very stupid. --Me
I'm doing a major re-write of the Skinhead page. I've watched it flounder for quite some time and it certainly hasn't gotten any better or any more encyclopaedic. Speaking as someone familiar with the movement, I'm disappointed by the way this article is going, so I'll take it upon myself to give (or at least attempt to give) an infomative, NPOV makeover. Cheers. vudu 17:35, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The older version is terrible, period. It's not encyclopaedic and completely POV. You'll also need to explain to me how I make it seem that the majority of skins are Nazi's (quoting from my rewrite): Fueled by sensationalist television, skinheads were inaccurately stereotyped a mindless, violent, and racist AND Traditional (or Trads) ? This group closely identifies itself with the original skinhead movement, maintaining working class pride and a dislike for the ?ruling class?. Non-racist and largely apolitical. This group is the largest sect of the subculture.
Did you even read the article? And you'll need to clarify your statement about braces being wrong. I have no idea what you're talking about. I only rewrote the article to give it a better starting point and to eliminate the POV. vudu 19:04, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Anyone who watches this article: please take a look at my rewrite and give me some feedback. Surely we can do better than what we presently have. Thanks. vudu 20:42, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback quercus. I was very much the punk myself, tho I dated a Chelsea for awhile. I guess I'm not seeing the article I wrote as portraying skins as mindless boneheads, could you tell me what in the article might give that impression? I agree that skins have largely gotten a raw deal in the press, tho they are a rowdy lot. Unfortunately, boneheads are considered part of the skinhead subculture by most. I attempt to be fair and to work from a NPOV. Being American, I have an Americanized view of the world, so any specifics you could give would be wonderful.
I guess one of my main concerns is that the article was reverted 10 minutes after it was posted. Given the fact that English is not zeno's first language, I hardly think he had time to do much more than skim over it. I was hoping to create a starting point, not the be-all, end-all guide to skins. Thanks for the comments. Anything else you can add would be great. As an aside, if you are attending any of the protests during Bush's visit to your land, tell him to bugger off for me too. =) Cheers. vudu 02:17, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I hope no one minds, but I attempted to give the article and injection of info. If anythings unclear or worthless, go ahead and drop it. I did want to have a more complete history, though, even if some of the faction information is useless. Eric S. 10:51, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
A more thorough explanation of exactly what braces are needs to be given so those who are not familiar with the subculture can better understand. -- SilentOpen 20:16, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
I have never heard of the fourth category, "realist" skinheads. If it's meant to draw a stronger distinction between modern apolitical skins and rude boy/two tone skins, perhaps it should be put back in (with perhaps a note on regional usage?) and it should also be elucidated under "Sects".
I sought to enhance the history by explaining the skinhead/rude boy connection better. I also thought the paragraph on media stigmatization of American skinheads showed some (probably unintended) POV.
With respect to inter-skinhead enmities, the statements were far too general by my experience, but since I don't have a global perspective I added a disclaiming paragraph rather than revise what was written.
From what I have seen, both in America and among foreign skins, strict adherence to old styles is done chiefly by freshcuts and teenagers, although many grownup skins practice it a little, especially if they enjoy collecting vintage skinhead clothes. I added some missing items, but mainly added a paragraph to weaken the notion of a "skinhead dress code," at least for everyday wear.
I removed the "color code" entries for the odder colors. I have never seen these colors in person, only in print, and even then they are generally accompanied with a similar disclaimer. When I saw them tagged "Not in the UK!" I was convinced their use was too rare to be included in a "generic" list. In any case, the whole color section is obsolete as far as I'm concerned. I only left what I did for the historical interest. Unconventional 00:58, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sam, I'm wondering why you removed "[Chiefly British]" from the definition of a Chelsea as a female skinhead. While I've heard pretentious teenage skinheads use it with that meaning sometimes, in my experience it's far less common in America than "skingirl". Is your experience otherwise? Unconventional 04:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Removed the phrase "Levis is the best" because it's a POV, and because Sta-Prest is Levi's by definition (it's a trademark). Explained "bleachers" and added it to the glossary. Rewrote Laces & Braces because it had become self-contradictory and overly wordy. Removed "[Not in UK]" from "Chelsea" because, after all, the word CAME from the London district! Instead, I revised the text with the assumption that the word is no longer often used (with the meaning "skinhead girl") anywhere. I believe it WAS used back in the day. Removed references to MA-1 (and MA-2) because other, similar models of flight jackets are commonly worn as well, just as the traditional Docs are not the only boots worn these days. If you want to highlight the strictly traditional gear, perhaps a separate and more complete subtitle under Style would be more appropriate. Unconventional 18:57, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Fair comment!-- TrojanSkin 21:03, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
TrojanSkin: Regarding removal of "non-racist" from the Traditional skinhead category, I think that's going too far. By far, most trads are non-racists. If we eliminate it, we should also eliminate "apolitical" because even more trads are political than are racists, but if we eliminate both terms, we'll have no distinguishing characteristics at all. I'm going to restore "non-racist" for this reason, but in deference to your thinking I'll leave it qualified by "largely".
Also, please review "Minor changes" on Wikipedia:Tutorial (Editing). Minor changes are changes to presentation, not substance. Several of your substantive changes, including this latest, have been marked "minor" inappropriately, in my opinion. -- Unconventional 22:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I know "way more", too. I know blokes in their sixties who were original Skinheads, traditional in appearance, who were racist. I also have regular contact with blokes of the same era (again, ex-Skinheads), who weren't. Therefore removing "non-racist" is not going too far. Or are we to have racist non-racist Traditional Trojan Nazi bonehead SHARP skins? It is a FACT that not all traditional Skinheads are non-racist, not a nice one to some people, but a FACT nonetheless. I would be happy to introduce you to some! Sorry for including "minor edit". Maybe this needs addressing. Changing one grammatical point seems to me to be minor! -- TrojanSkin 04:42, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
I don't see us disagreeing about any of this. An individual trad skin is no more likely to be racist than anti-racist, no more likely top be interested in politics than not, their just average people on these issues, w perhaps a bit of extra emphasis towards being working class. The important thing is that trad skins generally are not defined by racism, anti-racism, or any particular type of politics (except perhaps that which relates directly to being working class). In short their not Nazis, SHARPs, or commies, but they do like some aspects of Jamaican culture, particularly SKA. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 17:35, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
One thing we must keep in mind is the importance of common usage. I've always heard the big three catagories of Skinheads refered to as Nazi Skinhead, Anti-Racist Skinhead (often SHARP or ARA, but not always), and Traditional Skinhead. The last always emphasized SKA, Jamaican/English Rudeboy history, and less violence (especially violence related to fashion) and less interest in strict fashion generally. In short, traditional skins strike me as less trendy. There are books on this stuff too, I've seen them! Anyways, its important that we use the terms which are most common, and Nazi is a more common term for a skinhead than "white power", even if its not always technically correct.
Another thing this article needs is a discussion of region. Where I lived in Wisconsin, there were no Nazi skins, and every skinhead I met was ARA or SHARP. Here in Germany its the complete opposite, with every skinhead I've even heard of being far-right or Nazi.
And what about a random baldguy like me? I wear boots and listen to SKA and other Jamaican music sometimes, I even like redstripe. Even if I didnt, some people would still think of me as a skinhead, even tho I don't call myself one. The article needs more on how bald people, especially youg bald people, are percieved. Does anyone remember the old definition?
Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 00:48, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I was too broad with region, and the more I think about it, what I said probably applied more to my city than anything. Wisconsin is a big state, and I'm certain there were completely different situations in other areas. but even in a place like Chicago, their are neighborhoods where different "firms" predominate. As far as Trad skinheads, I confess my ignorance. The only people I've ever known personally who were even close wern't skinheads at all, but SKA fans who were interested in the scene. I was going off of what I've read online, their are some pretty good sites on the net. I research street gangs and youth movements, militias etc... quite a bit, but thats never as useful of info as knowing people first hand. What did you think of the current intro? I'm worried the statement on trads may be a bit long, and imperfctly informative. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 23:27, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
that's quite the opposite from what I have found out and experienced - what I think is that trad skins would have more interest in fashion as the ones closer to the mods. which other groups would be more trendy? the ones concerned with politics? come on!
"# Traditional, Trad, Trojan (after the Trojan Records label) or Original Skins - This group closely identifies itself with the original skinhead movement ("The Spirit of 69"), maintaining working class pride. This group is the largest segment of the subculture."
Do we have any evidence to support the statement above? In my limited experience this is certainly not true, but I don't know for certain either way. Unless we have some concrete to say so, I'd move to cut out that last sentence. siafu 03:25, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with this group of black "skinheads" from the mid-1960s. You describe them as having shaved heads and wearing skinhead attire, and even being called skinheads. I find this hard to believe, as skinheads in London hadn't yet received much media attention even at home, let alone in middle America. I'm not saying this St. Louis group didn't exist, only that they probably had no connection to the skinheads who originated in London, and who are the subject of this article. (I wonder if this group you're speaking of was actually derived from the Jamaican rude boys. That would explain a lot to me. But rude boys are a distinct group from skinheads, and deserve their own article, in which your information would be more appropriate.)
With respect to the phrase "and was a very influential in the punk rock movement in Saint Louis, Missouri" which you added to the mention of the founding of SHARP, its placement left the sentence ungrammatical. More importantly, SHARP no doubt influenced other movements, and in more places than St. Louis, so it comes off as too narrow a POV to be suitable here. It would certainly work in an article on the emergence of punk rock, or subcultures in St. Louis, though.
Regarding your final paragraph, I think it's entirely your personal POV. You talk as if there were some organized skinhead "movement" that wandered off course and is now being corrected. No doubt this is your perception and your political agenda. There is no "skinhead movement" because there is no central authority to define its purpose and regulate its membership. What you're really referring to, I believe, is an attempt by some skinheads to stop other skinheads from calling themselves skinheads. WP skins also do this, hoping to eliminate the non-racists. Moreover, if skinheads "returned to its roots of the rude boys" they would be rude boys, not skinheads--and btw, the rude boys of Jamaica were all criminals. Unconventional 21:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is this article accurate? If so, whats the difference between a sharp and a trojan skin? Are trojan and trad equivelent? Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 16:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All of that goes along w what I know, you can feel free to make any changes you feel are necessary. I think there is a tendancy among SHARP or ARA skinheads to place a positive emphasis on trad skins, and perhaps to feel they are one and the same. Thats just off the top of my head tho, and not article worthy w/o some back up. Sam Spade 00:50, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Italic textp.s the name Trojan came from Trojan Records one of the very first oi! music records. OI!OI!OI!
If racist skinheads are not connected to Nazism, what are they connected to? Pharlap 10:06, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I would point out that while american racist skinheads may not always be "nazis", I have never met or heard of a German skinhead who isn't a Nazi and NPD supporter. Here is a handy news link [1]. Sam Spade 15:25, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Nazy skins are dirty PIGS!!!
Regarding the following comment by Unconventional: "Sam Spade argued convincingly that "Neo-Nazi skinheads," despite its inaccuracy, is the more commonly used term among the general public and should therefore be retained"....
Well, I agree that most of the public uses the term "Neo-Nazi" or simply "Nazi" as a catch-all for any skinhead who espouses a racist ideology, but since when does the fact that some term is "more commonly used" mean that it ought to be the term used in an encyclopedia, regardless of the fact that it's innacurate and misleading? We're supposed to be putting together an educational resource here, not a dictionary of popular usage, right?
Is this, as Nuttyskin says, pedantry? I don't think so. The Ottawa, Canada of my mid-teen years (late 80s and early 90s) was a city absolutely packed with skins of all stripes, and the racists among them went out of their way to characterize themselves as "national socialists" if they had Nazi leanings (handily indicated by the red laces in their Docs, as well as their penchant for Nazi iconography, such as tattoos of swastikas and "88"--meaning Heil Hitler), while the more run-of-the-mill white power types also went out of their way to announce their racist tendencies (white laces, generally confrontational attitude), but generally didn't go in for the Nazi thing. Interacting with them over the years, I got the impression that the latter group tended to view their "Nazi" counterparts as, at best, a bit creepily sentimental and fetishistic. From what I saw, they had a point. At any rate, while the two groups tolerated each other for the most part, and intermingled at concerts and parties in a somewhat friendly way (and certainly more so than they would with SHARPS, but that much is obvious), they were nevertheless two discreet entities. To wit: the attitude among most of the WP skins I knew to was more akin to the attitude of a lot of black power types--racial pride/consciousness, a feeling of having been hard-done-by because of one's skin color, and a general distaste-for/mistrust-of whatever group isn't the one you belong to. As an acquaintance of mine used to put it, "It's not about hating anyone. It's about being proud of who you are and where you come from, and more than that, building yourself up so you have a reason to be proud." He was a WP skin, but I always thought he sounded an awful lot like Eldridge Cleaver when he spoke that way. What he didn't sound much like, on the other hand, was a Nazi. Buck Mulligan 05:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
All those nazi skins are awful. I wish them die and burn in hell (i know yhey will).
I've corrected a bit on Brazilian skins; the previous version described them as mostly anti-racist, which seems rather unlikely to be true. I won't claim to know a lot about the subject, so I hope someone who does will fix it up, but certainly the most visible skins there are white power skins, who've been involved in a lot of nastiness over the last 10 years or so. Rafaelgr 03:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
"Each category of skinhead may be considered to be hostile to a number of other groups, though violence is the exception to a rule of name-calling, harassment and defamation behind closed doors."
Sure, the groups toward which skinheads are hostile fills up an entire section, and skinheads are described as having "enemies," and the glossary explains the terms "aggro" and "boot party," but "as a rule" skinheads will have nothing to do with violence? It would be ludicrous to put this kind of sniveling whitewash into an entry on punk. How stupid do you think your readers are?
(Excuse me if I've offended your delicate sensibilities, skinheads - I know it is just SO IMPORTANT that everyone understands that skinheads are really peaceful and wonderful people who just happen to kick the shit out of pacifists they outnumber 3 to 1.)
I will point out that the common outsiders opinion on skinheads is pretty simple "young bald guys who fight alot". Racist also often gets tossed into the mix, along w boots and suspenders, but 3 to one beatdowns on pacifists I have yet to hear of. Maybe your thinking of protest warriors? Sam Spade 08:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
The latter, of course! I was making a small joke, I'm sure there has somewhere occured an incident wherin a pascifist was beaten by a skinhead, but thats not exactly a group they are known for persecuting, and indeed in my experience the most likely person for a skinhead to fight is someone who looks quite alot like himself. I have a friend who was choked unconscious by a skinhead at a disco for no apparent reason, and he was a young white guy w a military jacket. Sam Spade 01:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I think your right, and that this rule that you don't go to the cops over a fight be included in the article as something uniting sharps, nazi's and trad skins. My friend has fairly short hair, and wears emblems on his jacket, and said the skinhead stared at him w a weird look when he first went in, so you story makes perfect sense. Sam Spade 16:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
There should be a section on skinhead violence. Skinheads are a cult of violence that gang together and use intimidation and violence to gain power over others. Perhaps older skins have grown out of this mentality, but the whole allure of being a skin is having boys that will back each other up when someone or a group disagrees with their worldview. Whether it's nazi's beating up minorities or sharps beating up nazis its the exact same destructive mentality in different packaging.
I've added several links to our websites dedicated to the Traditional Skinheads. Please, don't add press garbage about "Racism in Russia" or "Evil army of mr.Putin", it's just not true. In our post-communist country we still have no laws to settle down our cheap newspapers, they reporting lies. The so-called "caucasophobia" was started by them. But in reality, very few russian skinheads are in politics. Most of them linked to football and music. Ska is the order of the day. Vugluskr 23:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Check out this article: [2]
Sam Spade 19:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Russian skinheads are awful. They are present Qasimodas.They are looking like dirty pigs. There are so many racist in Russia and that's very disgusting.
I notice you dislike this image. I think the article needs more images, not less. Why do you think it should be removed? Also, changing the caption to "boneheads" was in poor taste. Sam Spade 16:28, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Both should be included, regardless of their pant width ;) Sam Spade 16:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Now the list of links has come from the 'to be deleted' link page, the list seems a bit long for this article. Does one of these links point to somewhere with a bit of a list so we can trim this down? AntiVan 00:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Please don't go thru and delete all the nazi links, or call them "boneheads" in the article, or whatever. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to censor, insult or feud. The goal is to provide fair and balanced info to everyone. No one is going to change their mind or grow as a person based on insults or ignorance. Sam Spade 23:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The Nazi links about racism, not skinheads -- especially Free Your Mind Productions, where many of the followers are metalheads or 'normal' looking fascists. Most of the people in the Toledo Nazi photo don't even dress like skinheads, so they should not be used as an example of skinheads. If it's about "balance", then you should post a picture of reds, in which only half the people in the picture are skinheads, or post links to left wing music sites, in which only some followers are skins? Otherwise the claim of balance is a sham. This is supposed to be factual about skinheads, not the same misinformation that the mass media churns out.
....ok, so you put the Nazi stuff back in. I added a photo of anti-racist skinheads and added anti-racist skinhead links. That way it will be "fair and balanced", and you can't complain about censorship.
I find the information in the "Style" section unbelievable. Can anyone please give a reliable cite for this? -- 201.51.201.107 02:59, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
-what exactly is unbelievable? Be specific and maybe you'll get an answer.
why are the "Punk"-Skinheads not included in the catogories of Skinhead section?, it keeps getting removed, the "Punk"-Skin is a non-political skinhead who preferred the the punk influenced para-military style dress, its got to be some damn mardy old trad who is running the show on this page.
-Punk-skin doesn't mean non-political. I don't know where you get that idea. Get a better definition and maybe it will stay. Besides, there's already a mention of the punk-influence Oi! scene in the rest of the article.
well "punk/Oi" Skins are often loathed by trad skins in the UK, the trads call "oi-skins", dirty, glue sniffing bald punks and the two "styles" are often kept seprate even if they have the same ideals, around the world "trad" and "punk" skin "style" traits have been mixed slightly, i mean in the USA a "trad" is a non-political skinhead weather first wave or punk influenced and "punk"-skin refers to a punk in skinhead gear over there
in england your one or the other most of the time i guess, you wouldnt see a trad dead in a band or union jack-shirt and rarely would ever see an Oi-skin in a crombie
prehaps "Oi influenced skinhead" would be a better definition
Different areas have different meanings for laces and braces, jackets etc. For example, in Portland, OR, Skins with red braces or laces indicate racists, where as in San Francisco they don't and in Germany, Red laces and braces indicate the opposite of the racists, they indicate communists. Could we have a list of what different colors/jackets mean in different areas. I think that would be helpful, particularly for people trying not to get killed when moving cities, or trying not to kill the wrong people when moving cities.
-Colour codes are mostly irrelevant these days. Any attempt at a list would be innacurate, out of date and unverifiable. If you're afraid of being killed over your bootlaces, you probably shouldn't be a skinhead or associate with skinheads.
-Red Laces meant national socialist or social justice and are used by racialist skinheads. White laces mean White Pride/Power and sometimes are used by skinheads that are non-political simply to allow a sort of eay fit into either scene, racialist skinheads or trad and sharp skins. A recent new identification is green laces used by the newly emerging National Anarchist Skinheads.
"Shaven ballsacks"? Isn't it head? I would change it, but I'm no expert, maybe I've got it wrong all this time :-s
I deleted the claim that the original skins were dock workers. This is largely a myth, since most of the first skins were teens in school, not dock workers. And of those who did have jobs, they worked at many different types of places, not just the docks. I also deleted the links to articles about neo-Nazis, since this article is about the skinhead culture, not about extremist politics. Those links are appropriate for the Nazi-Skinheads article, not this one.
I also just noticed this:"...on the docks of Jamaica (where the term "Skinhead" came from) in the mid to late 1950s." This is totally false. The term skinhead originated in England, not Jamaica. And I don't know where the idea came from that the Jamaican immigrants who influenced skinhead culture were dock workers back in Jamaica. That's the first time I've seen someone claim that, and I really doubt that it's true. Spylab 12:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
Yeah, there's too much bloody leftoid revisionism on this page! Jamaican music, granted, but rudeboys' style influence on Skinheads? It was minimal, if any at all! It was mostly the other way around. The biggest style influence on Skinheads was the whole Ivy League fashion. . noonday_underground
As for the recent deletion of the category of right wing/conservative skinheads, I find it amazing that someone would claim that conservative non-racist skinheads don't exist. It seems to be mostly an American thing, but they definitely exist. They appear to make up a large portion of the United States skinhead population. Spylab 18:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
I don't know about America but this certainly doesn't exist in Europe. Anyway, you better find a SOURCE. Mitsos 08:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
My source is many years of real life, meeting skinheads from the USA and other countries, and by reading content published in zines, and posted on the Internet, by American skinheads. If you check any message board dominated by American skinheads, you will soon realize what I'm saying is true. Conservative skinheads definitely exist, and deleting that information is not justified. Spylab 12:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
"considers you and your people (Hellans, Greeks) non-human and would exterminate you if put into power?" "Why would a non-white espouse the doctrine of white nationalism?" ARE OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND??????????????????? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A GREEK PERSON??????????? THE GREEK PEOPLE ARE WHITE PEOPLE. Probably you haven't visited Greece for holidays. White Nationalism doesn't considers Greeks "non-human" as you say, because Greeks are White. The biggest racist of all times, Hitler, admired Greeks and the ancient Greek civilization. Goebels visited Greece many times. And if you doubt the existence of Greek neo-nazis see this: Hrisi Avgi. If mean that whites are onle the blond, blue-eyed, Northern Europeans visit the site racial reality. Also, I 'm not defending this ideology in wikipedia. I try to keep my POV away from wikipedia. Mitsos 14:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I have already posted this message on your profile discussion page, but you deleted it, which is against Wikipedia policy. Also, please always sign into your account when editing articles on Wikipedia. There are several unsigned edits that were obviously made by you. Spylab 15:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
"none of them consider themselves "white", they are Greek." I don't think so. Ask them about their race not their nationality. Greeks aren't black, asian or indian. They are white. Maybe Greek-Americans say they aren't white in order to seperate themselves from the White Anglo-Saxon Americans. Anyway, I always considered Greek-Americans as idiots. I believe you aren't idiot and you can see the difference between a Greek person and a Black person. You said "In the eyes of the white power movement Greeks are no more white than Italians, Turks, Persians, Armenians, Macedonians, Cypriots, Spainiards, Hebrews, Egyptians, Sicillians, or any of the other swarthy, olive skinned peoples from the Mediterranean" I don't know about about the American WN movement, but the European WN parties of the Nordic countries consider the mediterranean people brothers. The Italians and the Spainiards are White too. Cypriots (except from turkish-cypriots) are Greeks (despite their funny accent) and therefore White. Of course White Supremacy and Fascism go together. Have you ever seen a black fascist? Also, the name Ku Klux Klan comes from the Greek word "kyklos" (circle). Mitsos 14:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I 'm always happy to discuss and answer your questions. The African dictators weren't Fascist (I mean ideologicaly, like Mussolini and Hitler) they were simply despotic. About South Africa, White Supremacy can exist without the fascist element, but not Fascism (or better National Socialism) without White Supremacy. Mitsos 12:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
"White Supremacy can exist without the fascist element, but not Fascism (or better National Socialism) without White Supremacy." Sure it can, please see fascism. L0b0t 13:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This discusion started because I reported of a greek neo-nazi, nationalist organization which you called fascist. I never said it was fascist organization. I was talking about National Socialism (which goes together with White Supremacy). Mitsos 13:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey,HOMO SAPIENS.Is that really matters what colour of skin do you have?How much melanin do you have?Open you eyes, PEOPLE.We're livin' in 21 century, but it seems like in minus 100000000 century.Remember the mankind history. We are ALL came from Africa.Be HUMAN, not dirty pig, like those nazi skins.I can say that I'm human. And you?
Their has been 52 edits to this articial today and the outcome has be very little [3]. WP:3RR has surely been breched please discuss futher changes before making changes ( Gnevin 16:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC))
Generally, Wikipedia articles don't link to message boards, because they are full of irrelevant topics, non-verified information and people arguing with each other over petty personal disputes. Skinheads.net is particularly useless in helping people learn more about skinhead culture, especially since the people at that message board almost never talk about topics directly related to skinhead culture. They mostly talk about stuff like weddings, births, favourite drinks, what they ate for breakfast that morning, international politics, etc. Spylab 12:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
I don't understand the meening of this template in this article. It refer to a subculture, his content come from peoples (skinheads) experiences and knowledge. It don't need any references from a book or documentary. Stevo 19:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
From the article: "Anti-Heros (who sued the makers of American History X for wrongful use of their logo)".
This isn't in American History X, someone should cite a source for it. If it's a lawsuit, it shouldn't be that hard. -- Anaraug 13:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was withdrawn by nominator. See here. Part Deux 13:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Skinhead → Skinheads — Consistency: most of the skinhead subgroup articles, and other subculture-related articles, use plural forms in the titles. Even the skinhead article uses the plural form in the first sentence and throughout most of the article. — Spylab 14:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC); relisting by Part Deux 19:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The movie 'The Wanderers', which I think is set in the Bronx, 1963, features the gang the Foreign Baldies. They are clearly skinheads, but there is no explanation of them as a cultural phenomenon on this site. Did gangs like that exist, or were they just the invention of the 1970s filmmakers? Do tell. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.79.252.192 ( talk) 10:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
There are some claims within the article that seem to me to be at odds with one another: If the "hard mods became commonly known as skinheads by about 1968" and then "In the late 1960s, some skinheads (including black skinheads) had engaged in random violence against Pakistanis and other South Asian immigrants (an act known as Paki bashing in common slang)", why is the the claim made that "race, religion and national origin were never a part of being a skinhead"?
Since there is little to no time in the "late 1960's" in-between the ~1968 birth of the Skins and when Paki-bashing began, I modified the text to read
While opinions on race, religion, and national origin were unifying components of some skinhead gangs, today there are many people within the skinhead subculture who have a wide variety of political and sociological ideologies.
Seekue 10:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I restored the word random to the phrase "...some skinheads (including black skinheads) had engaged in random violence against..." because it means they chose a random person on the street to beat up based on their ethnicity, instead of beating them up for some specific personal reason (i.e. the person owed them money, slept with their girlfriend, stole their belongings etc.). They didn't go out and say, "There's so-and-so, I'm going to kick his ass." They picked a random Asian and beat him up for the hell of it. Spylab 13:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
That citation was about a gang that started in 1977, which is about a decade after the skinhead subculture started, so it did not back up the statement about "early skinheads." It's not a matter of deleting content that puts skinheads in a bad light or a good light; the rest of the article delves into all the sociopolitical issues and doesn't attempt to change history. It's a matter of having accurate content backed up by references. As it stands, the intro has too much generalization and unencyclopedic language. I am now going to try to make it more formal and neutral. Spylab 21:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Paki-bashing during the late Sixties was very much of its time
“People harp on about the old days and in the Sixties and stuff like that with the reggae music,” says Paul Burnley. “Even back then there were racist skinheads, but not so much affiliated to political parties."
The facts show that nationalism and/or bigotry was part of the early Skin subculture. Sure it may be embarrassing, but them are the brass tacks. I look forward to see where you go with the article, but do not ignore that there were "original Skinheads" who were bigots. Seekue 23:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I concede your point about that reference, and in no way am I ignoring that some (not all) of the 1960s skinheads were bigots — like many British people in general at that time. As you can see, I deleted POV-ish phrases like "brotherhood/sisterhood" because that seemed to be too much editorializing. However, from what I've read (including in posts on message boards by people who were actually part of the 1960s skinhead scene) and seen in documentary videos, anti-Asian violence was not a big focus of the skinhead subculture at that time. It seems that the focus was mostly on things like fashion, music, football, girls, alcohol; and that most of the fighting was against other skinheads or people from other subcultures, not random people based on their ethnicity. Spylab 00:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the part:
although as early as 1970 there were already many skinheads in the White Nationalist British National Front]].[4] Since then racist attitudes have become predominant in the skinhead sub-culture. Today most Skinheads are racist(even if they aren't all Neo-Nazi) although some skinheads remain apolitical or aligned to the Far Left.
The first (partial) sentence contradicts the first part of the sentence it's in. That's perfectly fine in the body text, but the introductory paragraph needs to be simple and general. If you think this information is significant (I don't, but it has a citation so I'll be openminded), why not expand on it and merge it into the History section?
The rest of the quote is subjective impression at most. It can't be substantiated, because it speaks of skinheads worldwide, and nobody with any authority has made an attempt even to define who is or isn't a skinhead in different parts of the world, let alone survey them on their political attitudes or any other characteristic. Thus "most skinheads are" statements are unsupportable. This has been discussed before, on the archived talk page; see Talk:Skinhead/archive_1#Demographics -- Unconventional 14:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Skinhead with scooter?
1. Why Scooter? 2. He has Hair on his head!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.165.251.60 ( talk) 15:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC). 3. That guy is me. Why the removal of pic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.64.62 ( talk) 18:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
footnote 24 to [ [4]] is dead (or at least it is on my machine). Move to have it deleted or if the original poster can find a mirrored version. -- hubare ( talk) 10:49, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the link to the mp3 website because it violates copyright law. Wikipedia guidelines say
However, if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States ( Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry [5]). Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors. [6].
Spylab ( talk) 21:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Hammerskinlogo.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 10:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd delete the Geoff Pearson quote. It's abstract, says little about skinheads, and is full of conjecture ("liberal conscience has seen nothing on earth like the Skinhead ... his clothing forced a neat closure to any critical thought"). The two political sections are already disproportionately long (reflecting public perceptions of skinhead more than the reality), so cutting these eight lines would bring it closer to balance. I left the paragraph in for now in case there are objections. Sluggoster ( talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Regarding mainstream media's depiction of skinheads, does anybody have a link to that quote about "How would you feel if your picture was in the paper with the words 'Child Rapist' under it?" It describes what it's like when people assume all sorts of false things about you and your culture because that's what they read in the paper. Sluggoster ( talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
"Skinheads on either extreme of the political spectrum sometimes refer to [apolitical skins] as a fencesitter or fencewalker."
Fencewalker means more than this. An apolitical skinhead who gets along with everybody is a traditional skin, not a fencewalker. Often their personal views are known but they don't let politics get in the way of interpersonal relationships if the other guy is not an asshole. "I respect you until you disrespect me", as the saying goes.
A fencewalker is somebody who hangs out buddy-buddy with the white power guys most of the time, who seems to be fascinated by their culture (e.g., listens to Skrewdriver and RAC more than Agnostic Front and the Anti-Heroes), yet still claims to be non-racist. The implication is that he's lying (he is white power but he's not willing to say so), or something along those lines.
Condemned 84/Retaliator are sometimes considered a fencewalking band because their lyrics are nationalistic and contain themes popular in WP songs but they carefully avoid explicit racism. Does this mean they're white power but don't want to offend their fans who aren't? Or are they a non-WP band who just likes the aggression of their style? Who knows. The point is that they tread the line very close, and thus give the appearance of being fencewalkers. White people who tell pollsters they might vote for a black man but in reality they wouldn't are also a kind of fencewalker.
The other use of the term is somebody who hangs out with his WP buddies and claims to be for the white man, then goes to his SHARP buddies and claims to be non-racist. So he's lying to one of them or the other or both. More likely he's just saying whatever they want to hear. This flies against the skinhead value of integrity: you stand up for your own beliefs, you give the same answer to everybody who asks, and you know why you believe what you do. Most skins on either side respect somebody who does that even if he disagrees with him. Sluggoster ( talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
It says in the intro: "They were really bad but they love puppies." What is the purpose of this sentence? It seems out of place and I think it should be removed. Benjaminmyklebust ( talk) 14:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC) I see it already is.
I don't see how you can have a huge section on how skinheads are quite often anti-racist or neutral while the article only hints at racist associations. Before you provide an "argument to the contrary" you at least have to talk about the initial argument.-- 67.170.107.184 ( talk) 03:28, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
This article needs more pictures. -Axmann8 (Talk) 22:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Thera are some articles, that most of worlds skinheads/neonazi live in Russia. (throught I don't find in english) Caucasian beats fat skinhead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-CsF0C5Xwg&mode=related&search=
It would help to have a descriptive phrase for each of these. Readers unfamiliar with the names will learn nothing. On that note, does anyone remember "Lefty," an African American woman skinhead who lived in D.C. in the 1980s? She was sort of "known" but I wasn't in the loop enough to know why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlg4104 ( talk • contribs) 03:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't she rumored to have a swastika tattoo on her chest? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.53.3.5 ( talk) 00:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
There are several celebrities (I use the term loosely) who are/were skinheads, and what's more even admit to it. Obvious examples from music would be Suggs (Graham Macpherson), Buster Bloodvessel (Doug Trendle) and Jimmy Pursey (from Sham69); from film, the writer/director Shane Meadows; the photographer Nick Knight, and the actor/photographer Gavin Watson http://www.myspace.com/gavinwatsonskins.
There is also pictorial evidence that Paul O'Grady used to be a suedehead in the 1970s.
Nuttyskin ( talk) 19:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
British music paper Sounds once printed a picture of former Motörhead drummer Phil "Philthy Animal" Taylor wearing full skinhead gear (Sta-Prest, button-down shirt, haircut, DM's - the lot) in his early teens. Coll (unregistered) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.24.106 ( talk) 03:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Crap Wiki entry, clearly written by an American. For a start, claiming that the Skinhead movement began in the "United Kingdom" is just too vague. There needs to be more information about the original east-London Skinheads of the late '60s. That's where it began and stayed for a number if years before it spread to the rest of the British isles. And if people outside the UK are going to comment on British culture, please try and get some basic facts correct. For instance, "Skinheads from the 70s marching for the BNP". The BNP wasn't formed until the early 1980s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GnosticM ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
To make that idiotic statement proves you couldn't have been around during the late 1960's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.43.124 ( talk) 06:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
GnosticM here, can't find my password. Please explain as to why that's an "idiotic statement"? And for your information, oh enlightened one, I was born in Walthamstow, Thorpe Coombe Hospital, in 1956. I was there, and I bet you weren't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.231.238 ( talk) 12:15, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Agree it's a dodgy wiki - but Skinhead happened pretty much in W. Yorks independently of London. The Ska/Reggae was a huge part of it, but so was Paki-bashing. Impossible to say that it wasn't racist, but equally impossible to say that the Skinhead phenomenon didn't do a great deal to promote access to black music - because it did.
Skinheads have periodically had revivals - more than most movements, and with each one it gets a little more confusing. The para-military styles of the late 70's, early 80's were far less creative in their attitudes - and generally purely about racism. But it all gets confusing at arms length. Also never forget the influence of football violence in all of this. The "gangs" that you might see in the US for example are largely absent in UK, because here it's all tied up with football crews. In the first skinhead era (roughly 68 to 76) though there were several geographically located gangs associated with skinheads in my area. From memory I'd go White Lee Skins, Spen Suedes, and Dale Lane Mafia as being key in West Yorkshire (it was very localised - Leeds & Bradford were seen as distant), and remember seeing large Northern Ireland style wall painting marking out home territory - all a little difficult though since most violence tended to happen around football matches, and local gangs could quite easily comprise supporters of several different teams - and the football took priority.
I'm also aware that Skinhead has meant something different in the US - I believe it's a term that used to be applied to certain US Marines - who went to extremes with their haircuts, and their militaristic attitudes
78.32.193.115 ( talk) 22:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Ey up, a voice from Yorkshire here. You can say what you like and its your experience of Skinhead times your talking about.
But c'mon....."The para-military styles of the late 70's, early 80's were far less creative in their attitudes - and generally purely about racism."
Yorkshire early 80's yeh The Burial, The Redskins, Skin Deep. These are the bands who were challenging racism within the Skinhead movement.
As for the U.S there have been some great bands such as The Press but Skinhead to the yanks it's all about the haircut and the bogeyman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plasmajam ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
My comment was directed at the way Skinheads are portrayed and perceived by non- Skinheads in the U.S. and not at the Skinheads themselves.
Plasmajam (
talk)
23:15, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Shouldnt it be mentioned somewhere that the skin head hairstyle, super short, is called a skin head even when not on a skin head culture person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.174.58.161 ( talk) 05:30, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
To the person who said there is no such thing as a monkey jacket, see the following link: http://www.modrevival.net/MonkeyJacket.jpg They have been worn by mods and skinheads. Spylab ( talk) 21:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
In the North of England we had skinheads galore, - It's a Harrington. You would however have Monkey Boots - which were a poor mans Dr Martins, which younger kids wore because the DMs didn't come in smaller sizes. The differences between Skins, suedes, mods, and just general scallies are very subtle. We also had Crombie boys - who didn't necessarily have the short hair. Harringtons were what you wore whilst your Crombie was at the dry cleaners.
78.32.193.115 ( talk) 22:04, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Doc Martens are still made in England. They are also made in China, Indonesia, Taiwan. Please correct the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypobusa ( talk • contribs) 11:40, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Hypobusa ( talk) 11:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)Doc Martens are still made in England. They are also made in China, Indonesia, Taiwan. Please correct the page.
This is a shameful article. Skinheads are mostly chauvinists and fascists, neo- or not, violent and criminal, even in smallest of their communities in smallest countries, and this article talks about "culture". -- Дарко Максимовић ( talk) 23:50, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
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The political part talks about how 'traditional' skinheads call certain other skinheads various names based on their political views, but it doesn't explain what 'traditional' skinheads are political wise Nil Einne 09:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I remember skinheads starting in Australia circa 1969. They were not a cultural movement, just violent street gangs in the impoverished suburbs of Sydney and Melb. The older bodgies and widgies (c.f. Teddy Boys) fought each other. Skinheads picked on passers-by in more gentile suburbs as the western suburbs residents were highly capable fighters; even the 80yr old grannies. 220.240.251.114 ( talk) 04:02, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
Why was the link to the article about the Russian skinheads removed? This is a verbatim quote from the recently released Human Rights Watch report:
In 2006 there were at least 439 racially-motivated attacks, including the stabbing of a nine-year-old Tajik girl. Forty-four of these attacks resulted in the victim’s death. Most often the perpetrators of these violent acts are groups of young men and women who profess a neo-fascist ideology and are known as "Neo-Nazis" or "skinheads".( see page 19)
. -- Kober Talk 15:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah they are, they just don't call themselves Neo-Nazis b/c their grandparents spent all of WWII supposedly fighting the Nazis. It makes things awkward at the dinner table when Babushka says to skinhead grandson, "So... you a Nazi, now? Your granddad was hung by one of them." Good to be able to say you're not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.135.55.229 ( talk) 03:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
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Would it be wrong to say that Skinheads still exist? Whilst the article talks about the 60s and 70s, I'm pretty sure there are those groups which share similar ideas and might even attack non-White British citizens.
A lot of verbage here covering a group of people who know damn well they have a racist agenda. They wouldn't shave their skulls and wear knee-high boots if they didn't want to advertise to someone else their shady intention. For all practical purpose they're assholes.
Uh call me crazy but weren't there skinheads in the 19th century? I've actually heard this from a skinhead. Can anyone verify this? 71.68.17.141 17:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
What bollocks seeing as skinheads started in London/South East where are these coal-mines you speak off?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.144.8 ( talk) 01:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Nuttyskin ( talk) 17:20, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
In reply to mister Whatbollocks: Early London skins were the offspring of dockers. Labourers, like the guy above said. Pollythewasp ( talk) 12:43, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
In reply to Polly the Poshgirl they weren't all the offspring of dockers but anyway what has that to do with miners? You must be American as you obviously have no idea about England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.98.80.38 ( talk) 12:47, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Skinhead came from mod with some Jamaican influence, not all skinheads shaved there heads in the late 60's and even then it was only usually to a number 2. It was just a name and used as an insult at first. Skinhead style was not based off the stereotypical working class image, braces were used to keep your trousers and jeans up seeing as jeans and trousers were higher waisted back then.
Skinhead started in London but it spread to other parts of the country, some of these lads may of been on mining apprenticeships or worked in a factory but it had nothing to do with looking working class, it was just a working class subculture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.51.21 ( talk) 09:21, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
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There's a sentence fragment in the 4th paragraph and I'm not sure if the comma should go before or after "According to Bill Osgerby..." 71.231.64.147 ( talk) 22:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
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So why arent the jesus skins mentioned? http://www.jesusskins.de http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4-vGNr6m4M&mode=related&search= Shows that christians can shave as well ;) 212.17.87.133 10:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
'Skinheads with even shorter hair and less emphasis on traditional styles grew in numbers and grabbed media attention, mostly as a result of their involvement with football hooliganism.' This is not how I remember it. This sentence needs a citation I think. Bkpip 03:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Surely we can do better. First, Wikipedia is not a dictionary, so please don't treat it as one. My main complaint about the above, though, isn't that it's short--it's that, in order to be made into something useful, it's going to have to be totally rewritten. "Too short"? And no one is called a skinhead just for being baldheaded. The second sentence is just too brief to be able to be accurate. Besides, the article should reside at skinhead... -- LMS
The Selector are a ska revivalist band, not to mention that all of them are black (seems a bit ironic to list them on the "skinhead" page)
1. You need to work on your understanding of the word ironic. 2. Half the skinheads I knew back in the day, before the look became dominated by neo-nazis, were black. If you actually read the article you'll see that early skinhead culture was heavily influenced by black music and styles. 3. I was one of those early 80's skinheads, and revivalist ska was listened to just as much as early ska and northern soul. 4. Don't confuse being a true skinhead with the rock listening, neo-nazis who hijacked the name. Bkpip 03:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
My friend says he is a "Neo-nazi punk." Is there a different between a skinhead and a "neo-nazi punk?"
...yes
I'm sorry, but your friend is stupid, and you are too if you have relationships with nazi. --Aishe 22:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Very, very stupid. --Me
I'm doing a major re-write of the Skinhead page. I've watched it flounder for quite some time and it certainly hasn't gotten any better or any more encyclopaedic. Speaking as someone familiar with the movement, I'm disappointed by the way this article is going, so I'll take it upon myself to give (or at least attempt to give) an infomative, NPOV makeover. Cheers. vudu 17:35, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The older version is terrible, period. It's not encyclopaedic and completely POV. You'll also need to explain to me how I make it seem that the majority of skins are Nazi's (quoting from my rewrite): Fueled by sensationalist television, skinheads were inaccurately stereotyped a mindless, violent, and racist AND Traditional (or Trads) ? This group closely identifies itself with the original skinhead movement, maintaining working class pride and a dislike for the ?ruling class?. Non-racist and largely apolitical. This group is the largest sect of the subculture.
Did you even read the article? And you'll need to clarify your statement about braces being wrong. I have no idea what you're talking about. I only rewrote the article to give it a better starting point and to eliminate the POV. vudu 19:04, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Anyone who watches this article: please take a look at my rewrite and give me some feedback. Surely we can do better than what we presently have. Thanks. vudu 20:42, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback quercus. I was very much the punk myself, tho I dated a Chelsea for awhile. I guess I'm not seeing the article I wrote as portraying skins as mindless boneheads, could you tell me what in the article might give that impression? I agree that skins have largely gotten a raw deal in the press, tho they are a rowdy lot. Unfortunately, boneheads are considered part of the skinhead subculture by most. I attempt to be fair and to work from a NPOV. Being American, I have an Americanized view of the world, so any specifics you could give would be wonderful.
I guess one of my main concerns is that the article was reverted 10 minutes after it was posted. Given the fact that English is not zeno's first language, I hardly think he had time to do much more than skim over it. I was hoping to create a starting point, not the be-all, end-all guide to skins. Thanks for the comments. Anything else you can add would be great. As an aside, if you are attending any of the protests during Bush's visit to your land, tell him to bugger off for me too. =) Cheers. vudu 02:17, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I hope no one minds, but I attempted to give the article and injection of info. If anythings unclear or worthless, go ahead and drop it. I did want to have a more complete history, though, even if some of the faction information is useless. Eric S. 10:51, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
A more thorough explanation of exactly what braces are needs to be given so those who are not familiar with the subculture can better understand. -- SilentOpen 20:16, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
I have never heard of the fourth category, "realist" skinheads. If it's meant to draw a stronger distinction between modern apolitical skins and rude boy/two tone skins, perhaps it should be put back in (with perhaps a note on regional usage?) and it should also be elucidated under "Sects".
I sought to enhance the history by explaining the skinhead/rude boy connection better. I also thought the paragraph on media stigmatization of American skinheads showed some (probably unintended) POV.
With respect to inter-skinhead enmities, the statements were far too general by my experience, but since I don't have a global perspective I added a disclaiming paragraph rather than revise what was written.
From what I have seen, both in America and among foreign skins, strict adherence to old styles is done chiefly by freshcuts and teenagers, although many grownup skins practice it a little, especially if they enjoy collecting vintage skinhead clothes. I added some missing items, but mainly added a paragraph to weaken the notion of a "skinhead dress code," at least for everyday wear.
I removed the "color code" entries for the odder colors. I have never seen these colors in person, only in print, and even then they are generally accompanied with a similar disclaimer. When I saw them tagged "Not in the UK!" I was convinced their use was too rare to be included in a "generic" list. In any case, the whole color section is obsolete as far as I'm concerned. I only left what I did for the historical interest. Unconventional 00:58, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sam, I'm wondering why you removed "[Chiefly British]" from the definition of a Chelsea as a female skinhead. While I've heard pretentious teenage skinheads use it with that meaning sometimes, in my experience it's far less common in America than "skingirl". Is your experience otherwise? Unconventional 04:15, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Removed the phrase "Levis is the best" because it's a POV, and because Sta-Prest is Levi's by definition (it's a trademark). Explained "bleachers" and added it to the glossary. Rewrote Laces & Braces because it had become self-contradictory and overly wordy. Removed "[Not in UK]" from "Chelsea" because, after all, the word CAME from the London district! Instead, I revised the text with the assumption that the word is no longer often used (with the meaning "skinhead girl") anywhere. I believe it WAS used back in the day. Removed references to MA-1 (and MA-2) because other, similar models of flight jackets are commonly worn as well, just as the traditional Docs are not the only boots worn these days. If you want to highlight the strictly traditional gear, perhaps a separate and more complete subtitle under Style would be more appropriate. Unconventional 18:57, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Fair comment!-- TrojanSkin 21:03, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)
TrojanSkin: Regarding removal of "non-racist" from the Traditional skinhead category, I think that's going too far. By far, most trads are non-racists. If we eliminate it, we should also eliminate "apolitical" because even more trads are political than are racists, but if we eliminate both terms, we'll have no distinguishing characteristics at all. I'm going to restore "non-racist" for this reason, but in deference to your thinking I'll leave it qualified by "largely".
Also, please review "Minor changes" on Wikipedia:Tutorial (Editing). Minor changes are changes to presentation, not substance. Several of your substantive changes, including this latest, have been marked "minor" inappropriately, in my opinion. -- Unconventional 22:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I know "way more", too. I know blokes in their sixties who were original Skinheads, traditional in appearance, who were racist. I also have regular contact with blokes of the same era (again, ex-Skinheads), who weren't. Therefore removing "non-racist" is not going too far. Or are we to have racist non-racist Traditional Trojan Nazi bonehead SHARP skins? It is a FACT that not all traditional Skinheads are non-racist, not a nice one to some people, but a FACT nonetheless. I would be happy to introduce you to some! Sorry for including "minor edit". Maybe this needs addressing. Changing one grammatical point seems to me to be minor! -- TrojanSkin 04:42, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
I don't see us disagreeing about any of this. An individual trad skin is no more likely to be racist than anti-racist, no more likely top be interested in politics than not, their just average people on these issues, w perhaps a bit of extra emphasis towards being working class. The important thing is that trad skins generally are not defined by racism, anti-racism, or any particular type of politics (except perhaps that which relates directly to being working class). In short their not Nazis, SHARPs, or commies, but they do like some aspects of Jamaican culture, particularly SKA. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 17:35, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
One thing we must keep in mind is the importance of common usage. I've always heard the big three catagories of Skinheads refered to as Nazi Skinhead, Anti-Racist Skinhead (often SHARP or ARA, but not always), and Traditional Skinhead. The last always emphasized SKA, Jamaican/English Rudeboy history, and less violence (especially violence related to fashion) and less interest in strict fashion generally. In short, traditional skins strike me as less trendy. There are books on this stuff too, I've seen them! Anyways, its important that we use the terms which are most common, and Nazi is a more common term for a skinhead than "white power", even if its not always technically correct.
Another thing this article needs is a discussion of region. Where I lived in Wisconsin, there were no Nazi skins, and every skinhead I met was ARA or SHARP. Here in Germany its the complete opposite, with every skinhead I've even heard of being far-right or Nazi.
And what about a random baldguy like me? I wear boots and listen to SKA and other Jamaican music sometimes, I even like redstripe. Even if I didnt, some people would still think of me as a skinhead, even tho I don't call myself one. The article needs more on how bald people, especially youg bald people, are percieved. Does anyone remember the old definition?
Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 00:48, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I was too broad with region, and the more I think about it, what I said probably applied more to my city than anything. Wisconsin is a big state, and I'm certain there were completely different situations in other areas. but even in a place like Chicago, their are neighborhoods where different "firms" predominate. As far as Trad skinheads, I confess my ignorance. The only people I've ever known personally who were even close wern't skinheads at all, but SKA fans who were interested in the scene. I was going off of what I've read online, their are some pretty good sites on the net. I research street gangs and youth movements, militias etc... quite a bit, but thats never as useful of info as knowing people first hand. What did you think of the current intro? I'm worried the statement on trads may be a bit long, and imperfctly informative. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 23:27, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
that's quite the opposite from what I have found out and experienced - what I think is that trad skins would have more interest in fashion as the ones closer to the mods. which other groups would be more trendy? the ones concerned with politics? come on!
"# Traditional, Trad, Trojan (after the Trojan Records label) or Original Skins - This group closely identifies itself with the original skinhead movement ("The Spirit of 69"), maintaining working class pride. This group is the largest segment of the subculture."
Do we have any evidence to support the statement above? In my limited experience this is certainly not true, but I don't know for certain either way. Unless we have some concrete to say so, I'd move to cut out that last sentence. siafu 03:25, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with this group of black "skinheads" from the mid-1960s. You describe them as having shaved heads and wearing skinhead attire, and even being called skinheads. I find this hard to believe, as skinheads in London hadn't yet received much media attention even at home, let alone in middle America. I'm not saying this St. Louis group didn't exist, only that they probably had no connection to the skinheads who originated in London, and who are the subject of this article. (I wonder if this group you're speaking of was actually derived from the Jamaican rude boys. That would explain a lot to me. But rude boys are a distinct group from skinheads, and deserve their own article, in which your information would be more appropriate.)
With respect to the phrase "and was a very influential in the punk rock movement in Saint Louis, Missouri" which you added to the mention of the founding of SHARP, its placement left the sentence ungrammatical. More importantly, SHARP no doubt influenced other movements, and in more places than St. Louis, so it comes off as too narrow a POV to be suitable here. It would certainly work in an article on the emergence of punk rock, or subcultures in St. Louis, though.
Regarding your final paragraph, I think it's entirely your personal POV. You talk as if there were some organized skinhead "movement" that wandered off course and is now being corrected. No doubt this is your perception and your political agenda. There is no "skinhead movement" because there is no central authority to define its purpose and regulate its membership. What you're really referring to, I believe, is an attempt by some skinheads to stop other skinheads from calling themselves skinheads. WP skins also do this, hoping to eliminate the non-racists. Moreover, if skinheads "returned to its roots of the rude boys" they would be rude boys, not skinheads--and btw, the rude boys of Jamaica were all criminals. Unconventional 21:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is this article accurate? If so, whats the difference between a sharp and a trojan skin? Are trojan and trad equivelent? Sam Spade Apply now, exciting opportunities available at Spade & Archer! 16:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All of that goes along w what I know, you can feel free to make any changes you feel are necessary. I think there is a tendancy among SHARP or ARA skinheads to place a positive emphasis on trad skins, and perhaps to feel they are one and the same. Thats just off the top of my head tho, and not article worthy w/o some back up. Sam Spade 00:50, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Italic textp.s the name Trojan came from Trojan Records one of the very first oi! music records. OI!OI!OI!
If racist skinheads are not connected to Nazism, what are they connected to? Pharlap 10:06, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I would point out that while american racist skinheads may not always be "nazis", I have never met or heard of a German skinhead who isn't a Nazi and NPD supporter. Here is a handy news link [1]. Sam Spade 15:25, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Nazy skins are dirty PIGS!!!
Regarding the following comment by Unconventional: "Sam Spade argued convincingly that "Neo-Nazi skinheads," despite its inaccuracy, is the more commonly used term among the general public and should therefore be retained"....
Well, I agree that most of the public uses the term "Neo-Nazi" or simply "Nazi" as a catch-all for any skinhead who espouses a racist ideology, but since when does the fact that some term is "more commonly used" mean that it ought to be the term used in an encyclopedia, regardless of the fact that it's innacurate and misleading? We're supposed to be putting together an educational resource here, not a dictionary of popular usage, right?
Is this, as Nuttyskin says, pedantry? I don't think so. The Ottawa, Canada of my mid-teen years (late 80s and early 90s) was a city absolutely packed with skins of all stripes, and the racists among them went out of their way to characterize themselves as "national socialists" if they had Nazi leanings (handily indicated by the red laces in their Docs, as well as their penchant for Nazi iconography, such as tattoos of swastikas and "88"--meaning Heil Hitler), while the more run-of-the-mill white power types also went out of their way to announce their racist tendencies (white laces, generally confrontational attitude), but generally didn't go in for the Nazi thing. Interacting with them over the years, I got the impression that the latter group tended to view their "Nazi" counterparts as, at best, a bit creepily sentimental and fetishistic. From what I saw, they had a point. At any rate, while the two groups tolerated each other for the most part, and intermingled at concerts and parties in a somewhat friendly way (and certainly more so than they would with SHARPS, but that much is obvious), they were nevertheless two discreet entities. To wit: the attitude among most of the WP skins I knew to was more akin to the attitude of a lot of black power types--racial pride/consciousness, a feeling of having been hard-done-by because of one's skin color, and a general distaste-for/mistrust-of whatever group isn't the one you belong to. As an acquaintance of mine used to put it, "It's not about hating anyone. It's about being proud of who you are and where you come from, and more than that, building yourself up so you have a reason to be proud." He was a WP skin, but I always thought he sounded an awful lot like Eldridge Cleaver when he spoke that way. What he didn't sound much like, on the other hand, was a Nazi. Buck Mulligan 05:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
All those nazi skins are awful. I wish them die and burn in hell (i know yhey will).
I've corrected a bit on Brazilian skins; the previous version described them as mostly anti-racist, which seems rather unlikely to be true. I won't claim to know a lot about the subject, so I hope someone who does will fix it up, but certainly the most visible skins there are white power skins, who've been involved in a lot of nastiness over the last 10 years or so. Rafaelgr 03:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
"Each category of skinhead may be considered to be hostile to a number of other groups, though violence is the exception to a rule of name-calling, harassment and defamation behind closed doors."
Sure, the groups toward which skinheads are hostile fills up an entire section, and skinheads are described as having "enemies," and the glossary explains the terms "aggro" and "boot party," but "as a rule" skinheads will have nothing to do with violence? It would be ludicrous to put this kind of sniveling whitewash into an entry on punk. How stupid do you think your readers are?
(Excuse me if I've offended your delicate sensibilities, skinheads - I know it is just SO IMPORTANT that everyone understands that skinheads are really peaceful and wonderful people who just happen to kick the shit out of pacifists they outnumber 3 to 1.)
I will point out that the common outsiders opinion on skinheads is pretty simple "young bald guys who fight alot". Racist also often gets tossed into the mix, along w boots and suspenders, but 3 to one beatdowns on pacifists I have yet to hear of. Maybe your thinking of protest warriors? Sam Spade 08:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
The latter, of course! I was making a small joke, I'm sure there has somewhere occured an incident wherin a pascifist was beaten by a skinhead, but thats not exactly a group they are known for persecuting, and indeed in my experience the most likely person for a skinhead to fight is someone who looks quite alot like himself. I have a friend who was choked unconscious by a skinhead at a disco for no apparent reason, and he was a young white guy w a military jacket. Sam Spade 01:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I think your right, and that this rule that you don't go to the cops over a fight be included in the article as something uniting sharps, nazi's and trad skins. My friend has fairly short hair, and wears emblems on his jacket, and said the skinhead stared at him w a weird look when he first went in, so you story makes perfect sense. Sam Spade 16:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
There should be a section on skinhead violence. Skinheads are a cult of violence that gang together and use intimidation and violence to gain power over others. Perhaps older skins have grown out of this mentality, but the whole allure of being a skin is having boys that will back each other up when someone or a group disagrees with their worldview. Whether it's nazi's beating up minorities or sharps beating up nazis its the exact same destructive mentality in different packaging.
I've added several links to our websites dedicated to the Traditional Skinheads. Please, don't add press garbage about "Racism in Russia" or "Evil army of mr.Putin", it's just not true. In our post-communist country we still have no laws to settle down our cheap newspapers, they reporting lies. The so-called "caucasophobia" was started by them. But in reality, very few russian skinheads are in politics. Most of them linked to football and music. Ska is the order of the day. Vugluskr 23:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Check out this article: [2]
Sam Spade 19:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Russian skinheads are awful. They are present Qasimodas.They are looking like dirty pigs. There are so many racist in Russia and that's very disgusting.
I notice you dislike this image. I think the article needs more images, not less. Why do you think it should be removed? Also, changing the caption to "boneheads" was in poor taste. Sam Spade 16:28, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Both should be included, regardless of their pant width ;) Sam Spade 16:18, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Now the list of links has come from the 'to be deleted' link page, the list seems a bit long for this article. Does one of these links point to somewhere with a bit of a list so we can trim this down? AntiVan 00:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Please don't go thru and delete all the nazi links, or call them "boneheads" in the article, or whatever. This is an encyclopedia, not a place to censor, insult or feud. The goal is to provide fair and balanced info to everyone. No one is going to change their mind or grow as a person based on insults or ignorance. Sam Spade 23:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
The Nazi links about racism, not skinheads -- especially Free Your Mind Productions, where many of the followers are metalheads or 'normal' looking fascists. Most of the people in the Toledo Nazi photo don't even dress like skinheads, so they should not be used as an example of skinheads. If it's about "balance", then you should post a picture of reds, in which only half the people in the picture are skinheads, or post links to left wing music sites, in which only some followers are skins? Otherwise the claim of balance is a sham. This is supposed to be factual about skinheads, not the same misinformation that the mass media churns out.
....ok, so you put the Nazi stuff back in. I added a photo of anti-racist skinheads and added anti-racist skinhead links. That way it will be "fair and balanced", and you can't complain about censorship.
I find the information in the "Style" section unbelievable. Can anyone please give a reliable cite for this? -- 201.51.201.107 02:59, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
-what exactly is unbelievable? Be specific and maybe you'll get an answer.
why are the "Punk"-Skinheads not included in the catogories of Skinhead section?, it keeps getting removed, the "Punk"-Skin is a non-political skinhead who preferred the the punk influenced para-military style dress, its got to be some damn mardy old trad who is running the show on this page.
-Punk-skin doesn't mean non-political. I don't know where you get that idea. Get a better definition and maybe it will stay. Besides, there's already a mention of the punk-influence Oi! scene in the rest of the article.
well "punk/Oi" Skins are often loathed by trad skins in the UK, the trads call "oi-skins", dirty, glue sniffing bald punks and the two "styles" are often kept seprate even if they have the same ideals, around the world "trad" and "punk" skin "style" traits have been mixed slightly, i mean in the USA a "trad" is a non-political skinhead weather first wave or punk influenced and "punk"-skin refers to a punk in skinhead gear over there
in england your one or the other most of the time i guess, you wouldnt see a trad dead in a band or union jack-shirt and rarely would ever see an Oi-skin in a crombie
prehaps "Oi influenced skinhead" would be a better definition
Different areas have different meanings for laces and braces, jackets etc. For example, in Portland, OR, Skins with red braces or laces indicate racists, where as in San Francisco they don't and in Germany, Red laces and braces indicate the opposite of the racists, they indicate communists. Could we have a list of what different colors/jackets mean in different areas. I think that would be helpful, particularly for people trying not to get killed when moving cities, or trying not to kill the wrong people when moving cities.
-Colour codes are mostly irrelevant these days. Any attempt at a list would be innacurate, out of date and unverifiable. If you're afraid of being killed over your bootlaces, you probably shouldn't be a skinhead or associate with skinheads.
-Red Laces meant national socialist or social justice and are used by racialist skinheads. White laces mean White Pride/Power and sometimes are used by skinheads that are non-political simply to allow a sort of eay fit into either scene, racialist skinheads or trad and sharp skins. A recent new identification is green laces used by the newly emerging National Anarchist Skinheads.
"Shaven ballsacks"? Isn't it head? I would change it, but I'm no expert, maybe I've got it wrong all this time :-s
I deleted the claim that the original skins were dock workers. This is largely a myth, since most of the first skins were teens in school, not dock workers. And of those who did have jobs, they worked at many different types of places, not just the docks. I also deleted the links to articles about neo-Nazis, since this article is about the skinhead culture, not about extremist politics. Those links are appropriate for the Nazi-Skinheads article, not this one.
I also just noticed this:"...on the docks of Jamaica (where the term "Skinhead" came from) in the mid to late 1950s." This is totally false. The term skinhead originated in England, not Jamaica. And I don't know where the idea came from that the Jamaican immigrants who influenced skinhead culture were dock workers back in Jamaica. That's the first time I've seen someone claim that, and I really doubt that it's true. Spylab 12:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
Yeah, there's too much bloody leftoid revisionism on this page! Jamaican music, granted, but rudeboys' style influence on Skinheads? It was minimal, if any at all! It was mostly the other way around. The biggest style influence on Skinheads was the whole Ivy League fashion. . noonday_underground
As for the recent deletion of the category of right wing/conservative skinheads, I find it amazing that someone would claim that conservative non-racist skinheads don't exist. It seems to be mostly an American thing, but they definitely exist. They appear to make up a large portion of the United States skinhead population. Spylab 18:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
I don't know about America but this certainly doesn't exist in Europe. Anyway, you better find a SOURCE. Mitsos 08:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
My source is many years of real life, meeting skinheads from the USA and other countries, and by reading content published in zines, and posted on the Internet, by American skinheads. If you check any message board dominated by American skinheads, you will soon realize what I'm saying is true. Conservative skinheads definitely exist, and deleting that information is not justified. Spylab 12:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
"considers you and your people (Hellans, Greeks) non-human and would exterminate you if put into power?" "Why would a non-white espouse the doctrine of white nationalism?" ARE OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND??????????????????? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A GREEK PERSON??????????? THE GREEK PEOPLE ARE WHITE PEOPLE. Probably you haven't visited Greece for holidays. White Nationalism doesn't considers Greeks "non-human" as you say, because Greeks are White. The biggest racist of all times, Hitler, admired Greeks and the ancient Greek civilization. Goebels visited Greece many times. And if you doubt the existence of Greek neo-nazis see this: Hrisi Avgi. If mean that whites are onle the blond, blue-eyed, Northern Europeans visit the site racial reality. Also, I 'm not defending this ideology in wikipedia. I try to keep my POV away from wikipedia. Mitsos 14:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I have already posted this message on your profile discussion page, but you deleted it, which is against Wikipedia policy. Also, please always sign into your account when editing articles on Wikipedia. There are several unsigned edits that were obviously made by you. Spylab 15:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
"none of them consider themselves "white", they are Greek." I don't think so. Ask them about their race not their nationality. Greeks aren't black, asian or indian. They are white. Maybe Greek-Americans say they aren't white in order to seperate themselves from the White Anglo-Saxon Americans. Anyway, I always considered Greek-Americans as idiots. I believe you aren't idiot and you can see the difference between a Greek person and a Black person. You said "In the eyes of the white power movement Greeks are no more white than Italians, Turks, Persians, Armenians, Macedonians, Cypriots, Spainiards, Hebrews, Egyptians, Sicillians, or any of the other swarthy, olive skinned peoples from the Mediterranean" I don't know about about the American WN movement, but the European WN parties of the Nordic countries consider the mediterranean people brothers. The Italians and the Spainiards are White too. Cypriots (except from turkish-cypriots) are Greeks (despite their funny accent) and therefore White. Of course White Supremacy and Fascism go together. Have you ever seen a black fascist? Also, the name Ku Klux Klan comes from the Greek word "kyklos" (circle). Mitsos 14:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I 'm always happy to discuss and answer your questions. The African dictators weren't Fascist (I mean ideologicaly, like Mussolini and Hitler) they were simply despotic. About South Africa, White Supremacy can exist without the fascist element, but not Fascism (or better National Socialism) without White Supremacy. Mitsos 12:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
"White Supremacy can exist without the fascist element, but not Fascism (or better National Socialism) without White Supremacy." Sure it can, please see fascism. L0b0t 13:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This discusion started because I reported of a greek neo-nazi, nationalist organization which you called fascist. I never said it was fascist organization. I was talking about National Socialism (which goes together with White Supremacy). Mitsos 13:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey,HOMO SAPIENS.Is that really matters what colour of skin do you have?How much melanin do you have?Open you eyes, PEOPLE.We're livin' in 21 century, but it seems like in minus 100000000 century.Remember the mankind history. We are ALL came from Africa.Be HUMAN, not dirty pig, like those nazi skins.I can say that I'm human. And you?
Their has been 52 edits to this articial today and the outcome has be very little [3]. WP:3RR has surely been breched please discuss futher changes before making changes ( Gnevin 16:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC))
Generally, Wikipedia articles don't link to message boards, because they are full of irrelevant topics, non-verified information and people arguing with each other over petty personal disputes. Skinheads.net is particularly useless in helping people learn more about skinhead culture, especially since the people at that message board almost never talk about topics directly related to skinhead culture. They mostly talk about stuff like weddings, births, favourite drinks, what they ate for breakfast that morning, international politics, etc. Spylab 12:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
I don't understand the meening of this template in this article. It refer to a subculture, his content come from peoples (skinheads) experiences and knowledge. It don't need any references from a book or documentary. Stevo 19:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
From the article: "Anti-Heros (who sued the makers of American History X for wrongful use of their logo)".
This isn't in American History X, someone should cite a source for it. If it's a lawsuit, it shouldn't be that hard. -- Anaraug 13:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was withdrawn by nominator. See here. Part Deux 13:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Skinhead → Skinheads — Consistency: most of the skinhead subgroup articles, and other subculture-related articles, use plural forms in the titles. Even the skinhead article uses the plural form in the first sentence and throughout most of the article. — Spylab 14:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC); relisting by Part Deux 19:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The movie 'The Wanderers', which I think is set in the Bronx, 1963, features the gang the Foreign Baldies. They are clearly skinheads, but there is no explanation of them as a cultural phenomenon on this site. Did gangs like that exist, or were they just the invention of the 1970s filmmakers? Do tell. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.79.252.192 ( talk) 10:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
There are some claims within the article that seem to me to be at odds with one another: If the "hard mods became commonly known as skinheads by about 1968" and then "In the late 1960s, some skinheads (including black skinheads) had engaged in random violence against Pakistanis and other South Asian immigrants (an act known as Paki bashing in common slang)", why is the the claim made that "race, religion and national origin were never a part of being a skinhead"?
Since there is little to no time in the "late 1960's" in-between the ~1968 birth of the Skins and when Paki-bashing began, I modified the text to read
While opinions on race, religion, and national origin were unifying components of some skinhead gangs, today there are many people within the skinhead subculture who have a wide variety of political and sociological ideologies.
Seekue 10:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I restored the word random to the phrase "...some skinheads (including black skinheads) had engaged in random violence against..." because it means they chose a random person on the street to beat up based on their ethnicity, instead of beating them up for some specific personal reason (i.e. the person owed them money, slept with their girlfriend, stole their belongings etc.). They didn't go out and say, "There's so-and-so, I'm going to kick his ass." They picked a random Asian and beat him up for the hell of it. Spylab 13:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
That citation was about a gang that started in 1977, which is about a decade after the skinhead subculture started, so it did not back up the statement about "early skinheads." It's not a matter of deleting content that puts skinheads in a bad light or a good light; the rest of the article delves into all the sociopolitical issues and doesn't attempt to change history. It's a matter of having accurate content backed up by references. As it stands, the intro has too much generalization and unencyclopedic language. I am now going to try to make it more formal and neutral. Spylab 21:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Paki-bashing during the late Sixties was very much of its time
“People harp on about the old days and in the Sixties and stuff like that with the reggae music,” says Paul Burnley. “Even back then there were racist skinheads, but not so much affiliated to political parties."
The facts show that nationalism and/or bigotry was part of the early Skin subculture. Sure it may be embarrassing, but them are the brass tacks. I look forward to see where you go with the article, but do not ignore that there were "original Skinheads" who were bigots. Seekue 23:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I concede your point about that reference, and in no way am I ignoring that some (not all) of the 1960s skinheads were bigots — like many British people in general at that time. As you can see, I deleted POV-ish phrases like "brotherhood/sisterhood" because that seemed to be too much editorializing. However, from what I've read (including in posts on message boards by people who were actually part of the 1960s skinhead scene) and seen in documentary videos, anti-Asian violence was not a big focus of the skinhead subculture at that time. It seems that the focus was mostly on things like fashion, music, football, girls, alcohol; and that most of the fighting was against other skinheads or people from other subcultures, not random people based on their ethnicity. Spylab 00:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing the part:
although as early as 1970 there were already many skinheads in the White Nationalist British National Front]].[4] Since then racist attitudes have become predominant in the skinhead sub-culture. Today most Skinheads are racist(even if they aren't all Neo-Nazi) although some skinheads remain apolitical or aligned to the Far Left.
The first (partial) sentence contradicts the first part of the sentence it's in. That's perfectly fine in the body text, but the introductory paragraph needs to be simple and general. If you think this information is significant (I don't, but it has a citation so I'll be openminded), why not expand on it and merge it into the History section?
The rest of the quote is subjective impression at most. It can't be substantiated, because it speaks of skinheads worldwide, and nobody with any authority has made an attempt even to define who is or isn't a skinhead in different parts of the world, let alone survey them on their political attitudes or any other characteristic. Thus "most skinheads are" statements are unsupportable. This has been discussed before, on the archived talk page; see Talk:Skinhead/archive_1#Demographics -- Unconventional 14:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Skinhead with scooter?
1. Why Scooter? 2. He has Hair on his head!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.165.251.60 ( talk) 15:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC). 3. That guy is me. Why the removal of pic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.64.62 ( talk) 18:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
footnote 24 to [ [4]] is dead (or at least it is on my machine). Move to have it deleted or if the original poster can find a mirrored version. -- hubare ( talk) 10:49, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I removed the link to the mp3 website because it violates copyright law. Wikipedia guidelines say
However, if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States ( Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry [5]). Linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on Wikipedia and its editors. [6].
Spylab ( talk) 21:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
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I'd delete the Geoff Pearson quote. It's abstract, says little about skinheads, and is full of conjecture ("liberal conscience has seen nothing on earth like the Skinhead ... his clothing forced a neat closure to any critical thought"). The two political sections are already disproportionately long (reflecting public perceptions of skinhead more than the reality), so cutting these eight lines would bring it closer to balance. I left the paragraph in for now in case there are objections. Sluggoster ( talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Regarding mainstream media's depiction of skinheads, does anybody have a link to that quote about "How would you feel if your picture was in the paper with the words 'Child Rapist' under it?" It describes what it's like when people assume all sorts of false things about you and your culture because that's what they read in the paper. Sluggoster ( talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
"Skinheads on either extreme of the political spectrum sometimes refer to [apolitical skins] as a fencesitter or fencewalker."
Fencewalker means more than this. An apolitical skinhead who gets along with everybody is a traditional skin, not a fencewalker. Often their personal views are known but they don't let politics get in the way of interpersonal relationships if the other guy is not an asshole. "I respect you until you disrespect me", as the saying goes.
A fencewalker is somebody who hangs out buddy-buddy with the white power guys most of the time, who seems to be fascinated by their culture (e.g., listens to Skrewdriver and RAC more than Agnostic Front and the Anti-Heroes), yet still claims to be non-racist. The implication is that he's lying (he is white power but he's not willing to say so), or something along those lines.
Condemned 84/Retaliator are sometimes considered a fencewalking band because their lyrics are nationalistic and contain themes popular in WP songs but they carefully avoid explicit racism. Does this mean they're white power but don't want to offend their fans who aren't? Or are they a non-WP band who just likes the aggression of their style? Who knows. The point is that they tread the line very close, and thus give the appearance of being fencewalkers. White people who tell pollsters they might vote for a black man but in reality they wouldn't are also a kind of fencewalker.
The other use of the term is somebody who hangs out with his WP buddies and claims to be for the white man, then goes to his SHARP buddies and claims to be non-racist. So he's lying to one of them or the other or both. More likely he's just saying whatever they want to hear. This flies against the skinhead value of integrity: you stand up for your own beliefs, you give the same answer to everybody who asks, and you know why you believe what you do. Most skins on either side respect somebody who does that even if he disagrees with him. Sluggoster ( talk) 06:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
It says in the intro: "They were really bad but they love puppies." What is the purpose of this sentence? It seems out of place and I think it should be removed. Benjaminmyklebust ( talk) 14:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC) I see it already is.
I don't see how you can have a huge section on how skinheads are quite often anti-racist or neutral while the article only hints at racist associations. Before you provide an "argument to the contrary" you at least have to talk about the initial argument.-- 67.170.107.184 ( talk) 03:28, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
This article needs more pictures. -Axmann8 (Talk) 22:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Thera are some articles, that most of worlds skinheads/neonazi live in Russia. (throught I don't find in english) Caucasian beats fat skinhead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-CsF0C5Xwg&mode=related&search=
It would help to have a descriptive phrase for each of these. Readers unfamiliar with the names will learn nothing. On that note, does anyone remember "Lefty," an African American woman skinhead who lived in D.C. in the 1980s? She was sort of "known" but I wasn't in the loop enough to know why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlg4104 ( talk • contribs) 03:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't she rumored to have a swastika tattoo on her chest? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.53.3.5 ( talk) 00:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
There are several celebrities (I use the term loosely) who are/were skinheads, and what's more even admit to it. Obvious examples from music would be Suggs (Graham Macpherson), Buster Bloodvessel (Doug Trendle) and Jimmy Pursey (from Sham69); from film, the writer/director Shane Meadows; the photographer Nick Knight, and the actor/photographer Gavin Watson http://www.myspace.com/gavinwatsonskins.
There is also pictorial evidence that Paul O'Grady used to be a suedehead in the 1970s.
Nuttyskin ( talk) 19:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
British music paper Sounds once printed a picture of former Motörhead drummer Phil "Philthy Animal" Taylor wearing full skinhead gear (Sta-Prest, button-down shirt, haircut, DM's - the lot) in his early teens. Coll (unregistered) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.24.106 ( talk) 03:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Crap Wiki entry, clearly written by an American. For a start, claiming that the Skinhead movement began in the "United Kingdom" is just too vague. There needs to be more information about the original east-London Skinheads of the late '60s. That's where it began and stayed for a number if years before it spread to the rest of the British isles. And if people outside the UK are going to comment on British culture, please try and get some basic facts correct. For instance, "Skinheads from the 70s marching for the BNP". The BNP wasn't formed until the early 1980s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GnosticM ( talk • contribs) 15:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
To make that idiotic statement proves you couldn't have been around during the late 1960's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.43.124 ( talk) 06:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
GnosticM here, can't find my password. Please explain as to why that's an "idiotic statement"? And for your information, oh enlightened one, I was born in Walthamstow, Thorpe Coombe Hospital, in 1956. I was there, and I bet you weren't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.231.238 ( talk) 12:15, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Agree it's a dodgy wiki - but Skinhead happened pretty much in W. Yorks independently of London. The Ska/Reggae was a huge part of it, but so was Paki-bashing. Impossible to say that it wasn't racist, but equally impossible to say that the Skinhead phenomenon didn't do a great deal to promote access to black music - because it did.
Skinheads have periodically had revivals - more than most movements, and with each one it gets a little more confusing. The para-military styles of the late 70's, early 80's were far less creative in their attitudes - and generally purely about racism. But it all gets confusing at arms length. Also never forget the influence of football violence in all of this. The "gangs" that you might see in the US for example are largely absent in UK, because here it's all tied up with football crews. In the first skinhead era (roughly 68 to 76) though there were several geographically located gangs associated with skinheads in my area. From memory I'd go White Lee Skins, Spen Suedes, and Dale Lane Mafia as being key in West Yorkshire (it was very localised - Leeds & Bradford were seen as distant), and remember seeing large Northern Ireland style wall painting marking out home territory - all a little difficult though since most violence tended to happen around football matches, and local gangs could quite easily comprise supporters of several different teams - and the football took priority.
I'm also aware that Skinhead has meant something different in the US - I believe it's a term that used to be applied to certain US Marines - who went to extremes with their haircuts, and their militaristic attitudes
78.32.193.115 ( talk) 22:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Ey up, a voice from Yorkshire here. You can say what you like and its your experience of Skinhead times your talking about.
But c'mon....."The para-military styles of the late 70's, early 80's were far less creative in their attitudes - and generally purely about racism."
Yorkshire early 80's yeh The Burial, The Redskins, Skin Deep. These are the bands who were challenging racism within the Skinhead movement.
As for the U.S there have been some great bands such as The Press but Skinhead to the yanks it's all about the haircut and the bogeyman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plasmajam ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
My comment was directed at the way Skinheads are portrayed and perceived by non- Skinheads in the U.S. and not at the Skinheads themselves.
Plasmajam (
talk)
23:15, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Shouldnt it be mentioned somewhere that the skin head hairstyle, super short, is called a skin head even when not on a skin head culture person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.174.58.161 ( talk) 05:30, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
To the person who said there is no such thing as a monkey jacket, see the following link: http://www.modrevival.net/MonkeyJacket.jpg They have been worn by mods and skinheads. Spylab ( talk) 21:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
In the North of England we had skinheads galore, - It's a Harrington. You would however have Monkey Boots - which were a poor mans Dr Martins, which younger kids wore because the DMs didn't come in smaller sizes. The differences between Skins, suedes, mods, and just general scallies are very subtle. We also had Crombie boys - who didn't necessarily have the short hair. Harringtons were what you wore whilst your Crombie was at the dry cleaners.
78.32.193.115 ( talk) 22:04, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Doc Martens are still made in England. They are also made in China, Indonesia, Taiwan. Please correct the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypobusa ( talk • contribs) 11:40, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Hypobusa ( talk) 11:42, 8 February 2013 (UTC)Doc Martens are still made in England. They are also made in China, Indonesia, Taiwan. Please correct the page.
This is a shameful article. Skinheads are mostly chauvinists and fascists, neo- or not, violent and criminal, even in smallest of their communities in smallest countries, and this article talks about "culture". -- Дарко Максимовић ( talk) 23:50, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
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The political part talks about how 'traditional' skinheads call certain other skinheads various names based on their political views, but it doesn't explain what 'traditional' skinheads are political wise Nil Einne 09:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I remember skinheads starting in Australia circa 1969. They were not a cultural movement, just violent street gangs in the impoverished suburbs of Sydney and Melb. The older bodgies and widgies (c.f. Teddy Boys) fought each other. Skinheads picked on passers-by in more gentile suburbs as the western suburbs residents were highly capable fighters; even the 80yr old grannies. 220.240.251.114 ( talk) 04:02, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
Why was the link to the article about the Russian skinheads removed? This is a verbatim quote from the recently released Human Rights Watch report:
In 2006 there were at least 439 racially-motivated attacks, including the stabbing of a nine-year-old Tajik girl. Forty-four of these attacks resulted in the victim’s death. Most often the perpetrators of these violent acts are groups of young men and women who profess a neo-fascist ideology and are known as "Neo-Nazis" or "skinheads".( see page 19)
. -- Kober Talk 15:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah they are, they just don't call themselves Neo-Nazis b/c their grandparents spent all of WWII supposedly fighting the Nazis. It makes things awkward at the dinner table when Babushka says to skinhead grandson, "So... you a Nazi, now? Your granddad was hung by one of them." Good to be able to say you're not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.135.55.229 ( talk) 03:39, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
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Would it be wrong to say that Skinheads still exist? Whilst the article talks about the 60s and 70s, I'm pretty sure there are those groups which share similar ideas and might even attack non-White British citizens.
A lot of verbage here covering a group of people who know damn well they have a racist agenda. They wouldn't shave their skulls and wear knee-high boots if they didn't want to advertise to someone else their shady intention. For all practical purpose they're assholes.
Uh call me crazy but weren't there skinheads in the 19th century? I've actually heard this from a skinhead. Can anyone verify this? 71.68.17.141 17:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
What bollocks seeing as skinheads started in London/South East where are these coal-mines you speak off?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.144.8 ( talk) 01:04, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Nuttyskin ( talk) 17:20, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
In reply to mister Whatbollocks: Early London skins were the offspring of dockers. Labourers, like the guy above said. Pollythewasp ( talk) 12:43, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
In reply to Polly the Poshgirl they weren't all the offspring of dockers but anyway what has that to do with miners? You must be American as you obviously have no idea about England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.98.80.38 ( talk) 12:47, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Skinhead came from mod with some Jamaican influence, not all skinheads shaved there heads in the late 60's and even then it was only usually to a number 2. It was just a name and used as an insult at first. Skinhead style was not based off the stereotypical working class image, braces were used to keep your trousers and jeans up seeing as jeans and trousers were higher waisted back then.
Skinhead started in London but it spread to other parts of the country, some of these lads may of been on mining apprenticeships or worked in a factory but it had nothing to do with looking working class, it was just a working class subculture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.51.21 ( talk) 09:21, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
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There's a sentence fragment in the 4th paragraph and I'm not sure if the comma should go before or after "According to Bill Osgerby..." 71.231.64.147 ( talk) 22:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)