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There's also Scat singing. We probably need to merge. Is it c or k? If it's k that would be handy natural disambiguation from the, erm, other meaning of scat. -- Tarquin 15:15 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
Skat is also a well-known card game for three players, and many of the links to this page expect to find an article about the game. -- Zundark 18:13 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
Should we move the bit about Minnie the Moocher to Scat singing? -- Tarquin 18:31 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
I just plunged ahead and did it. What I have done or am doing here:
My apologies to the original author if I have done violence to his or her work, but as it stood this article was confusing and it was my intention to help by moving its salient parts into new locations. All complaints to me and remember, it can be reverted if you insist, but I believe it would be better to discuss it in the various talk pages. Ortolan88 04:05 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
Great job on the page. I have a question about the rules, which isn't clear in the text. If I play without 2 and Hand, but the Jc is in the skat, does my game become with 1 or stay without 2? -- Grubber 09:41 Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Hey Grubber! The game becomes with one. You can read it in the International Skat and Tournament Order (
http://www.skatcanada.ca/canada/forms/rules-2003.pdf). It is under 5.4.2.
Klausberti 09:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is it really the most popular game in Germany? In the northern part definatly yes, but not really in all places. Maby you could say "most popular in some regions..."
I wouldn't doubt that, but the second-most couldn't possibly Doppelkopf, could it? It must be Schafkopf for sure...
It is played all over Germany, almost everybody who plays Schafkopf does play Skat, even though Schafkopf is more popular in Bavaria. 89.54.145.210 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I come from germany and in my opinion it's the most popular card game in germany. Every time we play it in school. I have the best master one can imagine. We call him "Skat Papst" in english "Skat Pope". Sorry for my bad english, I should improve it. | by Budd(h)a Brötchen
I think Skat actually is the most popular German game, because it is not just known in parts of the country. Southern Germany plays ist, Saxony plays it, Hesse plays it and it is well known all over the Rhein area. Even along the North Sea, if you ask for Skat players in a pub, you might find two joiners. Doppelkopf isn't sure to be the second place, but in far-western Germany it definitely is. In southern areas, it is likely to be Schafkopf after all. | By Aerandir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.174.131.244 ( talk) 22:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
One other thing. In te Reizen section, there must be an explanation of the +1 be added, (+1 winning the game simple, another +1 winning it Schneider, another +1 for Hand, angesagt, ouvert. I'm going to add this in the article. Also it is missing Revolution, a Null game, where the oppostion is allowed also to play open andd trade their cards. Its value is 92, if I'm not mistaken. To the tourne, that was called "Wende" in German and was still played in the 19th century, when the "Reizen" was still an option - at least according to a Skat book from the late 19th century I saw at an Antique Store in Munich a few years ago (I didn't buy it - it was too expensive).
89.54.145.210 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Revolution is not part of the Official Rules, but is one of many variations sometimes used in social games. Mike Tobias 09:17, 2 August 2007
In a small portion of the southern USA it is customary for the first bidder to begin the bidding by asking the listener: "Are you ready for me to speak my words to you?" This is known as the Deaton Opener to which the listener can either reply "yes" and let the bidding commence or "no" if they need more time to examine their hand. In houses where the Deaton Opener is practiced it is considered rude to state a bid without following this tradition, akin to picking one's cards up before the dealer has finished dealing. This tradition is believed to have originated in the southeastern Jollyville Plateau of the Texas Hill Country. Watercat77 19:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
In some houses it is the practice to place a bottle cap in front of the listener. If the listener passes, then the bottle cap is then moved to the first bidder. Watercat77 17:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Another variant on the Ramsch is known as Passing Ramsch. In this variation, after ramsch is declared, the listener picks up the skat and is allowed to use the contents of the skat to replace two of their own cards. The listener then passes their discard to the first bidder, who in turn replaces two of their own cards and passes on to the next bidder. The next bidder can then replace two cards. Jacks may not be discarded or passed on to other players in Passing Ramsch. This is considered a legitimate house rule, but is not part of the official skat rules. Watercat77 15:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
As well as trying to tidy up the English, I have replaced the word "soloist" by "declarer" throughout.
So I believe that "declarer" will be less confusing than "soloist", particularly for English-speakers.
Other changes I have made, in the hope of making things clearer, are:
Maproom ( talk) 16:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, DavidDouthitt, for the further improvements. Maproom ( talk) 22:11, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
-- WiseWoman ( talk) 15:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed all the "citation needed" tags from the American Skat section. The German rules section doesn't give a citation every time it states a rule, so I don't think the American Skat section needs to. But if anyone feels citations are needed, they can be found in the Texas Skat section of pagat.com, a site which is already linked from the foot of the article. Maproom ( talk) 20:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I see that Craw-daddy has changed the box at the top right of the page, so that the cards used, instead of "German or French", are now shown as "German". In fact, even in Germany, skat is more often played with French-suited than with German-suited cards. Unless Craw-daddy explains the reason for this edit, I propose to change it to "French or German". Maproom ( talk) 09:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The card type names link to a page where "French" cards and "French-suited" cards are different. I don't know how best to fix this, but the implication that "French" cards, as defined on that page, are commonly used, is wrong - I suspect that was the reason for the change. PeterBiddlecombe ( talk) 17:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, the bidding section was in German for all practical purposes :) I have re-written it. Would someone please see if it now makes sense (I play Skat, so it makes perfect sense to me!) and then remove the template? Thanks. -- WiseWoman ( talk) 15:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I can't make head nor tail of these rules. I get that this is quite a complex game, but even so! 78.146.32.158 ( talk) 19:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm just agreeing that the text here could be clearer (as someone trying to learn the game from them). I think the main problem is that advice on winning strategy is mixed in with the basic statement of the rules. It should have been in a separate section. BenKeeping ( talk) 09:05, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
Example 2 states:
"Note: most players will declare a Grand game with the above hand, as it will be much more lucrative than a suit game in Hearts (declarer will concede at most one Club trick, achieving Schneider for a score of at least 144 points)."
With the hand given, the average player would indeed choose a Grand. However, if they choose to play in hand (as many would) there is a good chance that they would give up 2 club tricks and not achieve Schneider. If they do not choose to play in hand, they might just as easily keep the queen of spades instead of a club, in an attempt to fool the opposition.
Ztrem ( talk) 18:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion it is somewhat misleading to write that the Brommesche Tarockgesellschaft had developed the game. There are no sources for this legend, that Friedrich Ferdninand Hempel, a member of this group, has invented this game. Ok, it’s true that the game book of Gabelentz had the first mentions of the game “Scat” and Neefe has invented the “Matadorenrechnung”, the base for the scoring system, but that’s nearly all about it. The Tarockgesellschaft was just a group of town honourables, that used to play together. The game of Skat itself was developed among the normal people in the aray of Altenburg. [1] -- Frakturfreak ( talk) 21:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
References
More on this perhaps? For instance, Skat players by Otto Dix. Malick78 ( talk) 19:56, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Not sure if this is helpful to anyone, but I came across some rules to Skat in a copy of Encyclopedia of Sports, Games and Pastimes, published by the Amalgamated Press Ltd, London, in approx 1935. The rules as written in that book are laughably impossible to understand for a beginner, despite the author's claim that they have been 'made as clear and simple as possible'. Let me know if an excerpt from these would be of any use to you. Psymann ( talk) 14:19, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Note: Most players will declare a Grand game with the above hand, as it will be much more lucrative than a Suit game in Hearts (declarer will concede at most two Club tricks, probably achieving Schneider for a Game Value of at least 144 (24x6)).
Following from the parenthesis I assume we are talking about a Hand game (otherwise declarer would replace the ♣10 by ♦J and concede at most one Club trick). For evaluating the actual game value at the end of the game the Skat is taken into consideration. So, assuming the player played Hand and achieved Schneider, the game value would be 24x7=168.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:23, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Skat can obviously be played with a reduced "standard 52 cards deck", but there are indeed special 32 card decks as well. Recently, by mistake, I bought a real Skat deck in Berlin. It has four suits, hearts, green blades, balloons and ... well something red and yellow with something green on (very hard to descrbe). All from 6 to 10 followed by U (a boy around 14 perhaps), O (a young man), K (an obvious King) and A (various figures for each suit). There is no female figure. This includes all I know about this game, but there is indeed special cards for Skat. 91.128.168.74 ( talk) 02:29, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
While the German word "Skat", as a noun, is capitalized as all nouns are in German, the article's in English and, at least for the first part of the article, we're treating the name of the game as an unitalicized English word. It isn't a proper noun so it should be uncapitalized, as is the case for contract bridge, poker, gin, rummy, etc.
After a certain point, the word begins being treated as a foreign word, italicized. I believe this is unnecessary. It's certainly inconsistent with the first part of the article. There are number of other words that shouldn't be capitalized either, such as "Jacks", "Hand", and "Null Hand". Largoplazo ( talk) 23:17, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There's also Scat singing. We probably need to merge. Is it c or k? If it's k that would be handy natural disambiguation from the, erm, other meaning of scat. -- Tarquin 15:15 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
Skat is also a well-known card game for three players, and many of the links to this page expect to find an article about the game. -- Zundark 18:13 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
Should we move the bit about Minnie the Moocher to Scat singing? -- Tarquin 18:31 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)
I just plunged ahead and did it. What I have done or am doing here:
My apologies to the original author if I have done violence to his or her work, but as it stood this article was confusing and it was my intention to help by moving its salient parts into new locations. All complaints to me and remember, it can be reverted if you insist, but I believe it would be better to discuss it in the various talk pages. Ortolan88 04:05 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)
Great job on the page. I have a question about the rules, which isn't clear in the text. If I play without 2 and Hand, but the Jc is in the skat, does my game become with 1 or stay without 2? -- Grubber 09:41 Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Hey Grubber! The game becomes with one. You can read it in the International Skat and Tournament Order (
http://www.skatcanada.ca/canada/forms/rules-2003.pdf). It is under 5.4.2.
Klausberti 09:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is it really the most popular game in Germany? In the northern part definatly yes, but not really in all places. Maby you could say "most popular in some regions..."
I wouldn't doubt that, but the second-most couldn't possibly Doppelkopf, could it? It must be Schafkopf for sure...
It is played all over Germany, almost everybody who plays Schafkopf does play Skat, even though Schafkopf is more popular in Bavaria. 89.54.145.210 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I come from germany and in my opinion it's the most popular card game in germany. Every time we play it in school. I have the best master one can imagine. We call him "Skat Papst" in english "Skat Pope". Sorry for my bad english, I should improve it. | by Budd(h)a Brötchen
I think Skat actually is the most popular German game, because it is not just known in parts of the country. Southern Germany plays ist, Saxony plays it, Hesse plays it and it is well known all over the Rhein area. Even along the North Sea, if you ask for Skat players in a pub, you might find two joiners. Doppelkopf isn't sure to be the second place, but in far-western Germany it definitely is. In southern areas, it is likely to be Schafkopf after all. | By Aerandir —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.174.131.244 ( talk) 22:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
One other thing. In te Reizen section, there must be an explanation of the +1 be added, (+1 winning the game simple, another +1 winning it Schneider, another +1 for Hand, angesagt, ouvert. I'm going to add this in the article. Also it is missing Revolution, a Null game, where the oppostion is allowed also to play open andd trade their cards. Its value is 92, if I'm not mistaken. To the tourne, that was called "Wende" in German and was still played in the 19th century, when the "Reizen" was still an option - at least according to a Skat book from the late 19th century I saw at an Antique Store in Munich a few years ago (I didn't buy it - it was too expensive).
89.54.145.210 20:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Revolution is not part of the Official Rules, but is one of many variations sometimes used in social games. Mike Tobias 09:17, 2 August 2007
In a small portion of the southern USA it is customary for the first bidder to begin the bidding by asking the listener: "Are you ready for me to speak my words to you?" This is known as the Deaton Opener to which the listener can either reply "yes" and let the bidding commence or "no" if they need more time to examine their hand. In houses where the Deaton Opener is practiced it is considered rude to state a bid without following this tradition, akin to picking one's cards up before the dealer has finished dealing. This tradition is believed to have originated in the southeastern Jollyville Plateau of the Texas Hill Country. Watercat77 19:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
In some houses it is the practice to place a bottle cap in front of the listener. If the listener passes, then the bottle cap is then moved to the first bidder. Watercat77 17:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Another variant on the Ramsch is known as Passing Ramsch. In this variation, after ramsch is declared, the listener picks up the skat and is allowed to use the contents of the skat to replace two of their own cards. The listener then passes their discard to the first bidder, who in turn replaces two of their own cards and passes on to the next bidder. The next bidder can then replace two cards. Jacks may not be discarded or passed on to other players in Passing Ramsch. This is considered a legitimate house rule, but is not part of the official skat rules. Watercat77 15:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
As well as trying to tidy up the English, I have replaced the word "soloist" by "declarer" throughout.
So I believe that "declarer" will be less confusing than "soloist", particularly for English-speakers.
Other changes I have made, in the hope of making things clearer, are:
Maproom ( talk) 16:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, DavidDouthitt, for the further improvements. Maproom ( talk) 22:11, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
-- WiseWoman ( talk) 15:56, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed all the "citation needed" tags from the American Skat section. The German rules section doesn't give a citation every time it states a rule, so I don't think the American Skat section needs to. But if anyone feels citations are needed, they can be found in the Texas Skat section of pagat.com, a site which is already linked from the foot of the article. Maproom ( talk) 20:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I see that Craw-daddy has changed the box at the top right of the page, so that the cards used, instead of "German or French", are now shown as "German". In fact, even in Germany, skat is more often played with French-suited than with German-suited cards. Unless Craw-daddy explains the reason for this edit, I propose to change it to "French or German". Maproom ( talk) 09:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The card type names link to a page where "French" cards and "French-suited" cards are different. I don't know how best to fix this, but the implication that "French" cards, as defined on that page, are commonly used, is wrong - I suspect that was the reason for the change. PeterBiddlecombe ( talk) 17:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, the bidding section was in German for all practical purposes :) I have re-written it. Would someone please see if it now makes sense (I play Skat, so it makes perfect sense to me!) and then remove the template? Thanks. -- WiseWoman ( talk) 15:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I can't make head nor tail of these rules. I get that this is quite a complex game, but even so! 78.146.32.158 ( talk) 19:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm just agreeing that the text here could be clearer (as someone trying to learn the game from them). I think the main problem is that advice on winning strategy is mixed in with the basic statement of the rules. It should have been in a separate section. BenKeeping ( talk) 09:05, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
Example 2 states:
"Note: most players will declare a Grand game with the above hand, as it will be much more lucrative than a suit game in Hearts (declarer will concede at most one Club trick, achieving Schneider for a score of at least 144 points)."
With the hand given, the average player would indeed choose a Grand. However, if they choose to play in hand (as many would) there is a good chance that they would give up 2 club tricks and not achieve Schneider. If they do not choose to play in hand, they might just as easily keep the queen of spades instead of a club, in an attempt to fool the opposition.
Ztrem ( talk) 18:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion it is somewhat misleading to write that the Brommesche Tarockgesellschaft had developed the game. There are no sources for this legend, that Friedrich Ferdninand Hempel, a member of this group, has invented this game. Ok, it’s true that the game book of Gabelentz had the first mentions of the game “Scat” and Neefe has invented the “Matadorenrechnung”, the base for the scoring system, but that’s nearly all about it. The Tarockgesellschaft was just a group of town honourables, that used to play together. The game of Skat itself was developed among the normal people in the aray of Altenburg. [1] -- Frakturfreak ( talk) 21:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
References
More on this perhaps? For instance, Skat players by Otto Dix. Malick78 ( talk) 19:56, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Not sure if this is helpful to anyone, but I came across some rules to Skat in a copy of Encyclopedia of Sports, Games and Pastimes, published by the Amalgamated Press Ltd, London, in approx 1935. The rules as written in that book are laughably impossible to understand for a beginner, despite the author's claim that they have been 'made as clear and simple as possible'. Let me know if an excerpt from these would be of any use to you. Psymann ( talk) 14:19, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Note: Most players will declare a Grand game with the above hand, as it will be much more lucrative than a Suit game in Hearts (declarer will concede at most two Club tricks, probably achieving Schneider for a Game Value of at least 144 (24x6)).
Following from the parenthesis I assume we are talking about a Hand game (otherwise declarer would replace the ♣10 by ♦J and concede at most one Club trick). For evaluating the actual game value at the end of the game the Skat is taken into consideration. So, assuming the player played Hand and achieved Schneider, the game value would be 24x7=168.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:23, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Skat can obviously be played with a reduced "standard 52 cards deck", but there are indeed special 32 card decks as well. Recently, by mistake, I bought a real Skat deck in Berlin. It has four suits, hearts, green blades, balloons and ... well something red and yellow with something green on (very hard to descrbe). All from 6 to 10 followed by U (a boy around 14 perhaps), O (a young man), K (an obvious King) and A (various figures for each suit). There is no female figure. This includes all I know about this game, but there is indeed special cards for Skat. 91.128.168.74 ( talk) 02:29, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
While the German word "Skat", as a noun, is capitalized as all nouns are in German, the article's in English and, at least for the first part of the article, we're treating the name of the game as an unitalicized English word. It isn't a proper noun so it should be uncapitalized, as is the case for contract bridge, poker, gin, rummy, etc.
After a certain point, the word begins being treated as a foreign word, italicized. I believe this is unnecessary. It's certainly inconsistent with the first part of the article. There are number of other words that shouldn't be capitalized either, such as "Jacks", "Hand", and "Null Hand". Largoplazo ( talk) 23:17, 24 February 2024 (UTC)