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There is one relatively old text "Journal of Serbian Learned Society" ( Serbian: Гласник Србског Ученог Друштва) published in 1865 which contain whole chapter of ten pages about Skanderbeg. It was issued in 1865 by Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (at that time the name was Serbian Learned Society Serbian: Srpsko učeno društvo)). It is available in full view here and contains ten pages about Skanderbeg. I propose to include it in the text of the article, literature section.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 23:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC) Done
"Skanderbeg is thought to have been born with the name Gjergj Kastrioti in 1405 in Sinë, one of the two villages owned by his grandfather. Skanderbeg's father was Gjon Kastrioti, lord of Middle Albania, which included Mat, Mirditë, and Dibër."
I am sorry if I did not understand this properly but based on the above two sentences I am afraid that readers (including me) could be confused. The first sentence says that his father owned only two villages. The second sentence claim that he was "lord of Middle Albania, which included Mat, Mirditë, and Dibër" which has to be much more than two villages. Did I understand this right?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 00:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
"During the 1430s, Skanderbeg controlled a relatively large timar composed of nine villages, which historians believe may have been part of the vilayet of Dhimiter Jonima"
Wikipedia:Parenthetical referencing deals with Parenthetical referencing which is used in the References section of this article. If I am not wrong, this form of referencing is intended to be "..enclosed within parentheses (round brackets) and embedded in the text, either within or after a sentence...". The Parenthetical referencing is requested to be used together with "Full citation in the reference section of the article" like it is explained here:
"The full citation (Smith, John. Name of Book. Cambridge University Press, 2010) is then added in alphabetical order, according to the authors' surnames, at the end of the article in a "References" section. The inline and full citation may be linked using a template (see linking inline and full citations); as with other citation templates, these should not be added to articles without consensus."
I like the existing form of referencing and I think that embodying Parenthetical referencing into the text of the article would make it look ugly. But, if the existing form of referencing is violating the content guidelines then we should change it. I don't remember there was consensus about the citation templates which should be used in this article? Does the existing form of referencing violate the content guidelines? -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
“Skanderbeg did not participate in the Second Battle of Kosovo in 1448 because he was delayed by Đurađ Branković, who was then allied with Sultan Murad II.”
Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time By Franz Babinger page 40, says:
“It was formerly belived that George Branković, responding to Murad's hopes in him, had blocked the mountain passes against George Castriota, who supposedly tried to come to the crusaders help with his Albanian troops. But recent research has shown this to be untrue.”
If nobody objects, I will delete the above mentioned sentence.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Below presented work provide explanation about the context of Skanderbegs behaviour and explains maybe the most important reason why Skanderbeg started war with Venetian Albania in 1447 and 1448
Skanderbeg of Albania, who was ready to join Hunyadi of Hungary on his crusade, was seduced by Alfonso into making war on Venice.
I propose to all interested users to read the part on the page 365 which begin with "But a new factor..." Skanderbeg was obviously under significant influence of Alfonso even before he officially became his vassal.
Schmitt also wrote "The alliance of nobles used up most of its energy in feuds with Venice and the towns of northern Albania, wars that it waged in conjunction with the Serb despot and the leader of Montenegro on behalf of the Kingdom of Naples." when he talk about Albanian–Venetian War (1447–1448)
I believe this brings a whole new perspective to this article which does not inform readers about role of Naples in Skanderbegs hostilities with Venice, which significantly contributed his downfall. Especially because the sources about Alphonso's influence on Skanderbeg's attacks on Venice are supported with Schmitt's words:
Seen from another perspective, one could say that Scanderbeg was drawn into a power struggle between Venice and Naples over rule in the Adriatic. For centuries, the Albanian coast had been the theatre of such struggles for hegemony. Castriota was unable to extract himself from the demands of regional geopolitics. He had originally turned to Naples for support and in 1451 had sworn an oath of allegiance. This provided him with protection and support from King Alfonso V, but it made his forces party to the war against the Republic of San Marco. Like his feudal liege, he fought on two fronts, against the Ottomans and against the Signoria. His realm was no more than a link in a broadly spanned chain of Neapolitan vassals in the Balkans against which Venice had spun a net of regional princes in its pay. As such, the Balkans were the theatre of inner-Italian warfare to which Scanderbeg would eventually fall victim and perish. Castriota’s star declined definitively in 1467 when the Venetians expelled the Neapolitans from central Albania. His hostility towards Venice, influenced at least by Naples, was the reason for his downfall.
I propose to inform readers of this article:
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:44, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi to everybody, I am glad to know there is an encyclopedia where users can help each other and contribute for a wide knowledge available to everyone at any time, but I did also notice when the topic goes to ancient history the issues are always pretty much the same, the same ones between countries, now please, be neutral, and look at reality as it is, what I see is angry users behaving normal to have more reputation and having typing fights to change how a word and a source is presented.. I personally found this funny.. Trust me guys, the normal people who REALLY wanna understand history will not come and consider wikipedia articles, but rather they will use books referring to original sources, and for the Skanderbeg article (I do admit i am of albanian origin) why bother so much about him, he fought for the albanian people (a documented incontestable fact i guess), all the rest is just conversation, thats why i found funny some user requests about the article, the original sources are always there, you can reinterpret them as you like, but in the next 50 years someone will look at them again and so on. I would never try to make Serbian or Greek symbols albanian if they are not (even if i know some albanians, greeks and serbians do). I know my personal opinion does not count much in this context, but i would be glad to leave this message here in the discussion page and i wish people could calm down and if you really wanna be neutral, start from facing the problems you have in your life instead of taking actions because of "hate", and instead of thinking of something smart to answer try to think about the last part of this message, because when you will face your problems you'll feel good and you will have less time to hate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.162.95 ( talk) 21:35, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
"... I would never try to make Serbian or Greek symbols albanian if they are not ...".
Even if they pay you well? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
91.140.46.56 (
talk)
20:09, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Taking in consideration arguments brought in this section and above mentioned information about Skanderbeg's hostility towards Venice, influenced at least by Naples I propose to change section structure of the article.
The proposed structure:
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 15:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Will you please be so kind to point to the "RSN refuted sources" used in the extra section I added and link to the RSN which "refuted" those sources?
Extra section that I added
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Controversies Skanderbeg and his men were in some sources referred to as Epirotes and in some other as Albanians, depending on the name of the geographical region used — ( Epirus or Albania). Ethnically, Skanderbeg's Albanian ethnicity is disputed by claims that he was of Serbian, Greek or mixed ethnicity. [SK 1] [SK 2] [SK 3]
References
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)There are no NPAs, you were reverted and it was explained why you were reverted and you never replied i.e WP:BRD. Italian volunteers in the Ottoman-Albanian wars are neither a subject of controversy nor are they related to this subject. Btw while writing a POV essay you included Debar of modern Macedonia in modern Albania in the part about the different ethnicities of Albania(the source refers to the ethnic composition of Debar). Enough said.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
The Commentaries of Pius II, Volume 35 Volume 22 of Smith college studies in history The Commentaries of Pius II, Leona Christine Gabel Author Pope Pius II Editor Leona Christine Gabel Publisher Dept. of history of Smith college, 1937
Before Italian expedition Prince of taranto wrote a letter to Skanderbeg
Scanderbeg answer..
To me it seems clear the ethnic awareness, while he is self-identified as Albanian "Then you too despise our race and reckon the Albanians as sheep. You talk in your usual scornful tone and appear to be ignorant of the origin of our race.". Aigest ( talk) 09:57, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Works of Fan S. Noli are used as referenced source for almost 40 statements.
I propose to double check all statements based solely on Noli because he made serious mistake in his works about Skanderbeg and used documents forged by Giammaria Biemmi as source for his works.
It is confirmed by
Kenneth M. Setton who stated that Noli had not discovered that Biemmi invented the "Anonymous of Antivari".(
Setton, Kenneth M. (1978),
The Papacy and the Levant (1204–1571), Volume II: The Fifteenth Century, DIANE Publishing, p. 102,
ISBN
0-87169-127-2, Unfortunately Athanase Gegaj, L'Albanie et I'invasion turque au XV siecle, Louvain and Paris, 1937, pp. 77-80, had not discovered that the "Anonymous of Antivari" was an invention of Biemmi, nor had Noli even by 1947.
)
I think that such serious mistake makes Fan S. Noli additionally non-reliable source (besides the fact that he is not contemporary historian and that his neutrality could be disputed because of his political engagement) for articles about Skanderbeg. Therefore I propose to investigate all informations which are referenced with his work and to remove informations which can not be supported by some other reliable source.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
FAQ does not support that Skanderbeg was only Catholic.
There are sources which support information that he was Orthodox before he was converted into Muslim like this source:
There was discussion on the talk page about this issue. It did not end with consensus.
Taking above in consideration please don't attribute Catholic Christian religion only to Skanderbeg before reaching consensus about it.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
There is important information about the church Skanderbeg married his wife. It was an Eastern Orthodox Ardenica Monastery.
Sources:
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't know was Skanderbeg Catholic or Orthodox in the begining of his life, but I do know that Skanderbeg was hailed as Athleta Christi by the Pope and was declared captain general of the Holy See, and that he was baptited into Roman Catholic church. Here are some sources:
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help)Anyway, I am pretty sure that it was like this: 1.) Christian, 2.) Islam, 3.) Roman Catholic. Was he Catholic or Orthodox in the first point under Christian, is hard to tell, as sources contradict here. But, the important thing is that in his last years (most important ones), he was a Roman Catholic.-- Kebeta ( talk) 21:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Please read WP:OR i.e don't attribute religious motivations to various actions. Skanderbeg was a Muslim when part of the Ottoman army i.e he didn't convert from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, so I think that it's time for a complete RSN about Schmitt because these are mistakes that even school textbooks don't make.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
References
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Newly placed COA of Kastrioti family has serious issue with providing reliable sources. User who made this COA ( User:MissMJ) stated that presented sources for such image are " randomly scanned illustration and speculation"
Therefore I will return the previous image.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:40, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
It is not so important, but it is interesting to know - Skanderbeg was granted nobility by Ragusans. If a main editor here can find a good place for this, that would be cool. -- Kebeta ( talk) 20:54, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
His mother may easily be Serbian, per sources, he was closely included in Second Battle of Kosovo aftermath, he was donating to Serbia monastery Hilandar, he is mentioned in Serbian literature numerous times. He IS very much related to this wikiproject. Why do you remove {{ WP Serbia}} tag? -- WhiteWriter speaks 12:20, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I would recommend posing this question to the Wiki Project page discussion : Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Serbia since the debate is really about whether or not this article is part of that project or not.— Leef5 TALK | CONTRIBS 13:40, 13 June 2011 (UTC) |
I found another work of Karl Hopf which is frequently mentioning Skanderbeg. It is published in 1869 on German language and is completely available online, within Denkschriften: Volume 16 - Page 117 published by Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien. Philosophisch-Historische Klasse, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften. Philosophisch-Historische Klasse. Maybe it would be a good idea to add it to the sources section?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:23, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
The article is too big. According to recommendation this guideline this article should be splitted. This issue was already noticed by many other users and therefore I propose to respect their opinion and reduce the size of the article. I think that there are sections (i.e. In literature and art) which could clearly be significantly reduced and expanded within completely another article. Any proposal how to do it?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
La Légende de Skanderbeg is work of Paul Pisani, written in 1891 and solely dedicated to Skanderbeg, written by scholar, and therefore it deserves to be included in the section about Skanderbeg in literature and art. It is obvious that section "In literature and art" is very big and should be expanded within separate article. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
There is something that Skanderbeg built, besides fortress near Dures. That is the village which name was Chorlu, mentioned in Babinger's work (p. 253). Maybe that information could be added to the article because it is probably one of two things Skanderbeg built in his life?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:37, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Problem: There is opinion that article is too long. Also, there are opinions that Source section is too big (expressed in the GA review and in the section above this one).
Proposals how to solve the problem: I propose to follow the recommendations of the GA reviewer and Wikipedia:Further reading and resolve the size issue of the sources section. That means that:
Comments are welcome.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 14:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Maybe we can solve the problem of sources section being too big by dividing it into two sections: the existing one and new one "Further reading" section.
I asked one user who is experienced with sources and referencing styles for help with this issue. Her opinion was:
Separation of the full book citations into two groups sounds sensible. Those not referred to from short notes can be separated off into a "Further reading" section (it would go between "Sources" and "External links", per MOS:APPENDIX): I count 42 of these. Those referred to from short notes should definitely stay where they are
42 ?! I propose to have separate sections for: 1) sources which are referred to (they would stay where they are now) and 2) those not referred to (they would be moved into new "Further reading" section). Is anybody against it?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:14, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
In the lede of this article is written that Skanderbeg was:
leader of the federation of the League of Lezhë
I propose to replace the word federation because League of Lezhe was not federation.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
There is succession box at the end of the article. I have few questions about it:
Added "Dominus Albaniae" (Lord of Albania). This is the title he used while signing his letters. His father Gjon Kastrioti was addressed as "Dominus partium Albaniae" (Lord of part of Albania) link Aigest ( talk) 08:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
After my question connected with providing the sources for information about Balaban Pasha being Prince of Kastrioti, User:Aigest changed it to another Ottoman timariot, Gjon Kastrioti. I propose to provide some sources for that claim, taking in consideration that text of the article says that Gjon Kastrioti was Ottoman timariot who Ottoman zeamet untill he died 6,5 years before Skanderbeg is claimed to succeed Gjon by gaining the title of Prince of Kastrioti.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Please confirm if above mentioned summary correctly interpret your claims?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 23:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I found interesting information about what Matthias Corvinus replied to pope when he criticized Korvin for his delay in starting war with Ottoman Empire in his letter written in July 1465.
If I would follow the example of Epirote (Skanderbeg)*, bragging about my victories all the time, adding to the chronicles every single village my forces burned in enemy territory, every single prisoner they captured and every peace of booty my men robbed, it would be obvious that my weapon was not still even when I was sitting in Budim.
Klaić, Vjekoslav (1904), "Ratovanje s Turcima (1464. — 1466) (War with Turks [1464. — 1466])",
Povjest Hrvata, od najstarijih vremena do svršetka XIX.stoljeća. (in Croatian), Zagreb: Tisak i Nakl. Knjižare Lav. Hartmana, p. 61,
OCLC
593973015, >Kad bi se ja povađao za Epiroćaninom (Skenderbegom)*, pisao je u svom odgovoru, >kad bi se ja svaki čas hvalio pobjedama, te dao upisati u Ijetopise svako selo, što su ga moje čete u neprijateljskoj zemlji spalile, svakoga čovjeka, kojega su zarobili, i svaki komad blaga, što su ga oteli, e onda bi se pokazalo, da moje oružje nije počivalo ni onda, kad sam ja u Budimu sjedio....«
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:36, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
The text of the article says:
"Although there have been many theories on the place where Skanderbeg was born,[134] the main biographers now tend to agree on the place of birth as the village of Sinë, in modern Albania."
Maybe it would be according to the NPOV policy to present to the readers all significant theories about his birthplace, not only one like in existing text of the article.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Although there have been many theories on the place where Skanderbeg was born,[134] the main biographers now tend to agree on the place of birth as the village of Sinë, in modern Albania. is a very concise way to deal with the birthplace. Btw is there even a theory that claims that his birthplace was a settlement within modern Macedonia? -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:35, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Skanderbegs Familie stammte aus der Region Dibra, die sich heute an der Grenze zwischen Albanien und Mazedonien befindet. Das Gebiet war im Mittelalter sowohl von albanischen als auch von slawischen Stämmen christlich-orthodoxen Glaubens besiedelt. Skanderbegs Mutter Vojsava war eine Serbin aus der einflussreichen Familie Brankovic. Der Name des Stammes Kastrioti leitet sich laut Schmitt vermutlich vom griechischen Wort «kastron» (Festung) ab....Skanderbeg family came from the region of Dibra, which is now located on the border between Albania and Macedonia.
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help) Read the authorization of this interview at the end of the page. The author of the quoted sentence is
Oliver Jens Schmitt. Let me present the source with explanation who is Oliver Jens Schmitt:
Momčilo Spremić, a member of
Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, specialist for
history of Balkans in
late middle ages
stated that Schmitt's work is the best biography of Skanderbeg till now ("најбоље написана историја Скендербега"). If I am not wrong, this main biographer of Skanderbeg does not support Sine thesis.--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
21:11, 24 August 2011 (UTC)Just noting that Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts is the same who made the SANU Memorandum (1986) ..edited by Serb intellectuals, as well as public officials, referred to in Part I of this Annex, expressed the plight of Kosovo's Serbs. The document was considered by many to be the heralding of a new ethnic nationalism. The paper placed the imprimatur of Serbia's most prestigious intellectuals on the cause of militant Serbian nationalism and was instrumental in spreading anti-Albanian sentiment. Some consider the SANU Memorandum has purpose of reviving the Greater Serbian ideology and to put it into political practice. According to American historian James J. Sadkovich SANU managed to galvanize Croats more than any Croatian far right group Aigest ( talk) 09:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Sources:
Гундулић је постао поверљива личност напуљског краља, коме је слао тајне извештаје из Дубровника o политичкој ситуацији на Балканском полуострву....Паладин Гундулић, поверљиво лице краља Ферантеа. Гундулић му је чинио разне услуге у Дубровнику, а, одлазио је и као његов амбасадор у Напуљ, па је тако био врлр заслужан за одржавање везе између Скендербега и напуљског... Gundulić became trusted person of king of Naples to whom he sent classified reports from Dubrovnik about political situation on the Balkans...Paladin Gundulić, a trusted person of the king Ferante. Gundulić did many favours to Ferante in Dubrovnik being his ambassador in Naples and therefore in charge for maintaining the connection between Skanderbeg and the king of Naples.
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help)Одржавање присних веза олакшано је и тиме што се у Скендербеговој служби налазио Дубровчанин Паладин Гундулић који му је свршавао многе дипломатске мисије... The close relationship was easier because there was one Ragusian, Paladin Gundulić who completed many diplomatic missions for Skanderbeg
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help).Maybe someone could find this information useful when adding information about diplomats and scribes who worked for Skanderbeg.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 14:21, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Please find below my conversation with User:Gaius Claudius Nero about sources used in article(s) about Skanderbeg. Since it is related to Skanderbeg I copied it here.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:18, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I know that you are on wikibreak but I simply had to approach to you because I recently discovered about Biemmi and work of Noli which heavily relied on him and Barleti. Unfortunately, you too considered Biemmi as "one of the primary sources on Skanderbeg and his campaigns" and heavily relied many articles you wrote on questionable sources like:
...... The spurious correspondence of July and August 1443, between Ladislas and Scanderbeg (made up by Barletius, who should assigned it to the year 1444) ...
{{
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help)) and invented correspondence between Skanderbeg and Sultan Mehmed II (
Setton, Kenneth (1976—1984),
The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571, vol. four volumes, American Philosophical Society, p. 73,
ISBN
978-0-87169-114-9, ...... He also invented a correspondence between Skanderbeg and Sultan Mehmed II to fit his interpretations of the events in 1461—1463 ...
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help))Unfortunately Athanase Gegaj, L'Albanie et I'invasion turque au XV siecle, Louvain and Paris, 1937, pp. 77-80, had not discovered that the "Anonymous of Antivari" was an invention of Biemmi, nor had Noli even by 1947.)
Unfortunately Athanase Gegaj, L'Albanie et I'invasion turque au XV siecle, Louvain and Paris, 1937, pp. 77-80, had not discovered that the "Anonymous of Antivari" was an invention of Biemmi, nor had Noli even by 1947.)
I believe that reliability, neutrality and credibility of above mentioned authors and their works is seriously questioned. I am sure that you are aware that we have serious problem with numerous statements and articles which heavily rely solely on above mentioned authors and their works.
What do you think how we can solve this problem?
Taking in consideration that you are on wiki break for next two weeks, I will leave this matter for now, regarding articles about numerous Skanderbeg's campaigns within Template:Ottoman-Albanian_Wars that you are main contributor of.
Please think about this issue. I hope that I can expect your proposal how to resolve this issue till the end of June?
Best regards,
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I sense that this issue will never be resolved if we were the only ones involved so I suggest submitting it to WP:RSN.-- Gaius Claudius Nero ( talk) 00:40, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Even a quick look into the historiography of those times suffices to see the effort to adapt the story of Skenderbeg to contemporary ideological stipulations.
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help)Heute gibt es zwei Skanderbegs - den historischen und den zum Nationalhelden erhobenen Mythos, wie er in albanischen Schulen und von nationalistischen Intellektuellen in Tirana oder Prishtina dargestellt wird. Beide haben weniger miteinander zu tun als entfernte Verwandte.
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help)I started discussion about using the primary sources in the articles about Skanderbeg (like Biemmi and Barleti), about using the works of authors who are not historians (Hodgkinson and Francione) and about works of authors who are not contemporary historians (Noli and Gegaj) who heavily relied on forged sources (Biemmi) believing in its genuineness.
In your reply, Gaius Claudius Nero, you disputed reliability of contemporary historian Oliver Jens Schmitt. I don't understand your arguments without additional clarifications and translation. Therefore I need your help to better understand it before I can reply it.
Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion article is nominated for deletion. Since it is closely connected with Skanderbeg, maybe users interested in topic about Skanderbeg can say something about this nomination.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Myth of Skanderbeg article is nominated for deletion. Since it is closely connected with Skanderbeg, maybe users interested in topic about Skanderbeg can say something about this nomination.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Most problems are solved? Is anybody going to nominate this article for GA? ZjarriRrethues,...Antidiskriminator...?? -- Kebeta ( talk) 21:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
The military commanders, leaders and simple soldiers, i.e. the whole army fighting against Scanderbeg, consisted of local Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Vlachs. There were also Turkish Muslims in the Ottoman forces who owned timar lands. On the whole, it is evident that the rebels were not opposed by "foreign" invaders, but by local forces loyal to the new empire who were willing to fight members of their own ethnic groups longing for pre-Ottoman times)-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:25, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
I found three documents written and signed by Skanderbeg and available online:
All three links show documents from Dubrovnik archives which are published in "Monumenta serbica spectantia historiam Serbiae, Bosnae, Ragusii -Franz Miklǒsich - 1858"
Maybe those documents can be helpful to users interested in Skanderbeg.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
I will try to be bold here and make some changes that will maybe trigger an improvment from other users and move the article more toward GA status...I will not be offended if somebody decide to revert me...Regards, Kebeta ( talk) 14:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)You're misrepresenting and mistranslating a 17th century dictionary. That being said you should also expect a 3RR violation report. Antid. linguistic issues aren't solved by simply placing national labels on scripts. Neutrality is expected when there are multiple views, but regarding Skanderbeg's religion at the time of his birth/death date there aren't any conflicting opinions.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:47, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
... erst nach seiner Rückkehr vom Islam zum Christentum näherte Skanderbeg sich dem Katholizismus an ...[... only after his return from Islam to Christianity approached Scanderbeg on Catholicism ...]
{{
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help)Biographies about Skanderbeg are not so numerous and I suppose that we should add all of them into Further Reading section. I found one more biography:
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help)I did't find any information about the author but I guess he was a historian. In that case we could add this work into further reading section?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
There are numerous sources about another nickname of Skanderbeg: “The White Devil of Wallachia”. Does anybody have any argument against inclusion this information to the text of the article?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
(unintend)If you do add them without a consensus, I'll have to ask for admin intervention as you've already received warnings by admins about your edits on Skanderbeg.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I am against recent adding of four images of monuments of Skanderbeg because:
Therefore I propose to remove all images (except one in Tirana), based on above mentioned arguments and wikipedia policies. Any comment?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 18:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
see also categories Given names of Greek language origin Greek masculine given names !!! -- 194.219.51.216 ( talk) 18:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
The text of the article says Their children included Gjon Kastrioti II.
If there were other children, then that information should be presented to the readers. If not, then above mentioned sentence should be changed to: They had one child, Gjon Kastrioti II.
Any comment?--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
14:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
If you are contemplating a Good Article status, you have to start from the very first lines.
1) What is the meaning "George ... or Gjergj..."? Does it mean that Sk. is found in the bibliography either as George or as Gjergj with no other choices? Or does it mean that he was calling himself "George" or "Gjergj"? Sources pleas. Note D contrasts the linked line because it says "lord of Albania".
The various names in the main sources are displayed in the relevant section.
2) What is the meaning of "Albanian lord"? Albanian in ethnicity or what? In the article about his mother it is clear that her nationality is uncertain (if we take seriously the pro-Albanian sources) or Slave if we rely on the modern academic sources. Now, let's take the pro-Albanian scenario that his father was Albanian and his mother of unscertain nationality. On what rule the child takes the "Albanian" from the father and not the "uncertain" from the mother? I suppose that WP conforms to the UN resolution of the womens' rights and does not adopt the ottoman rules.
But the article has to reflect all the possible scenarios and not the pro-Albanian one. So, according to many sources neither his father nor his mother were Albanians. Therefore, the "Albanian lord" violates the WP rules and we must seek a better phrasing. --
Euzen (
talk)
13:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I've stated before in this talk page to you personally Antid that Scanderbeg title was "Dominus Albaniae" which means "Lord of Albania" and you had not problems with that
see here so I am surprised you bring the same issue again. Don't be surprised then if others accuse you of trolling.
The title lord is commonly used for that period. Scanderbeg is called lord by his contemporaries:
The title Albanian lord (also Lord of Albania) is used in the general context by later historians for various figures in Albania and this does not constitute a POV, unless of course you want to accuse them of POV and for that you have other boards:
XIX century
XX century
So no WP:SYNTH, no WP:POV, no WP:OR, but instead links, references, cited texts from well respected historians during centuries which call Scanderbeg with the exact words "Lord of Albania" and "Albanian Lord" or "Albanian leader" etc. Hope this is the end of this repeated discussion. Aigest ( talk) 09:47, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The title "Lord of Albania" may be found in old books and archival material and is understood as a common hyperbole of middle ages. We have rulers who claimed (in papers) that rule half of the world. We have Kings and Queens "of Jerusalem" who couldn't see the city even by a telescope. The question is: Can this article define Sk. as "Albanian lord" while there are many of sources making his ethnicity uncertain? I think that a separate paragraph is needed referring to the debate about his origins. -- Euzen ( talk) 11:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
(unintend)Antid. please stick to the sources. You have been warned by admins regarding Skanderbeg discussions so it would be prudent to actually follow their suggestions and not insist on non-issues.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 05:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
There is one relatively old text "Journal of Serbian Learned Society" ( Serbian: Гласник Србског Ученог Друштва) published in 1865 which contain whole chapter of ten pages about Skanderbeg. It was issued in 1865 by Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (at that time the name was Serbian Learned Society Serbian: Srpsko učeno društvo)). It is available in full view here and contains ten pages about Skanderbeg. I propose to include it in the text of the article, literature section.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 23:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC) Done
"Skanderbeg is thought to have been born with the name Gjergj Kastrioti in 1405 in Sinë, one of the two villages owned by his grandfather. Skanderbeg's father was Gjon Kastrioti, lord of Middle Albania, which included Mat, Mirditë, and Dibër."
I am sorry if I did not understand this properly but based on the above two sentences I am afraid that readers (including me) could be confused. The first sentence says that his father owned only two villages. The second sentence claim that he was "lord of Middle Albania, which included Mat, Mirditë, and Dibër" which has to be much more than two villages. Did I understand this right?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 00:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
"During the 1430s, Skanderbeg controlled a relatively large timar composed of nine villages, which historians believe may have been part of the vilayet of Dhimiter Jonima"
Wikipedia:Parenthetical referencing deals with Parenthetical referencing which is used in the References section of this article. If I am not wrong, this form of referencing is intended to be "..enclosed within parentheses (round brackets) and embedded in the text, either within or after a sentence...". The Parenthetical referencing is requested to be used together with "Full citation in the reference section of the article" like it is explained here:
"The full citation (Smith, John. Name of Book. Cambridge University Press, 2010) is then added in alphabetical order, according to the authors' surnames, at the end of the article in a "References" section. The inline and full citation may be linked using a template (see linking inline and full citations); as with other citation templates, these should not be added to articles without consensus."
I like the existing form of referencing and I think that embodying Parenthetical referencing into the text of the article would make it look ugly. But, if the existing form of referencing is violating the content guidelines then we should change it. I don't remember there was consensus about the citation templates which should be used in this article? Does the existing form of referencing violate the content guidelines? -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
“Skanderbeg did not participate in the Second Battle of Kosovo in 1448 because he was delayed by Đurađ Branković, who was then allied with Sultan Murad II.”
Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time By Franz Babinger page 40, says:
“It was formerly belived that George Branković, responding to Murad's hopes in him, had blocked the mountain passes against George Castriota, who supposedly tried to come to the crusaders help with his Albanian troops. But recent research has shown this to be untrue.”
If nobody objects, I will delete the above mentioned sentence.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Below presented work provide explanation about the context of Skanderbegs behaviour and explains maybe the most important reason why Skanderbeg started war with Venetian Albania in 1447 and 1448
Skanderbeg of Albania, who was ready to join Hunyadi of Hungary on his crusade, was seduced by Alfonso into making war on Venice.
I propose to all interested users to read the part on the page 365 which begin with "But a new factor..." Skanderbeg was obviously under significant influence of Alfonso even before he officially became his vassal.
Schmitt also wrote "The alliance of nobles used up most of its energy in feuds with Venice and the towns of northern Albania, wars that it waged in conjunction with the Serb despot and the leader of Montenegro on behalf of the Kingdom of Naples." when he talk about Albanian–Venetian War (1447–1448)
I believe this brings a whole new perspective to this article which does not inform readers about role of Naples in Skanderbegs hostilities with Venice, which significantly contributed his downfall. Especially because the sources about Alphonso's influence on Skanderbeg's attacks on Venice are supported with Schmitt's words:
Seen from another perspective, one could say that Scanderbeg was drawn into a power struggle between Venice and Naples over rule in the Adriatic. For centuries, the Albanian coast had been the theatre of such struggles for hegemony. Castriota was unable to extract himself from the demands of regional geopolitics. He had originally turned to Naples for support and in 1451 had sworn an oath of allegiance. This provided him with protection and support from King Alfonso V, but it made his forces party to the war against the Republic of San Marco. Like his feudal liege, he fought on two fronts, against the Ottomans and against the Signoria. His realm was no more than a link in a broadly spanned chain of Neapolitan vassals in the Balkans against which Venice had spun a net of regional princes in its pay. As such, the Balkans were the theatre of inner-Italian warfare to which Scanderbeg would eventually fall victim and perish. Castriota’s star declined definitively in 1467 when the Venetians expelled the Neapolitans from central Albania. His hostility towards Venice, influenced at least by Naples, was the reason for his downfall.
I propose to inform readers of this article:
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:44, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi to everybody, I am glad to know there is an encyclopedia where users can help each other and contribute for a wide knowledge available to everyone at any time, but I did also notice when the topic goes to ancient history the issues are always pretty much the same, the same ones between countries, now please, be neutral, and look at reality as it is, what I see is angry users behaving normal to have more reputation and having typing fights to change how a word and a source is presented.. I personally found this funny.. Trust me guys, the normal people who REALLY wanna understand history will not come and consider wikipedia articles, but rather they will use books referring to original sources, and for the Skanderbeg article (I do admit i am of albanian origin) why bother so much about him, he fought for the albanian people (a documented incontestable fact i guess), all the rest is just conversation, thats why i found funny some user requests about the article, the original sources are always there, you can reinterpret them as you like, but in the next 50 years someone will look at them again and so on. I would never try to make Serbian or Greek symbols albanian if they are not (even if i know some albanians, greeks and serbians do). I know my personal opinion does not count much in this context, but i would be glad to leave this message here in the discussion page and i wish people could calm down and if you really wanna be neutral, start from facing the problems you have in your life instead of taking actions because of "hate", and instead of thinking of something smart to answer try to think about the last part of this message, because when you will face your problems you'll feel good and you will have less time to hate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.162.95 ( talk) 21:35, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
"... I would never try to make Serbian or Greek symbols albanian if they are not ...".
Even if they pay you well? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
91.140.46.56 (
talk)
20:09, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Taking in consideration arguments brought in this section and above mentioned information about Skanderbeg's hostility towards Venice, influenced at least by Naples I propose to change section structure of the article.
The proposed structure:
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 15:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Will you please be so kind to point to the "RSN refuted sources" used in the extra section I added and link to the RSN which "refuted" those sources?
Extra section that I added
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Controversies Skanderbeg and his men were in some sources referred to as Epirotes and in some other as Albanians, depending on the name of the geographical region used — ( Epirus or Albania). Ethnically, Skanderbeg's Albanian ethnicity is disputed by claims that he was of Serbian, Greek or mixed ethnicity. [SK 1] [SK 2] [SK 3]
References
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)There are no NPAs, you were reverted and it was explained why you were reverted and you never replied i.e WP:BRD. Italian volunteers in the Ottoman-Albanian wars are neither a subject of controversy nor are they related to this subject. Btw while writing a POV essay you included Debar of modern Macedonia in modern Albania in the part about the different ethnicities of Albania(the source refers to the ethnic composition of Debar). Enough said.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
The Commentaries of Pius II, Volume 35 Volume 22 of Smith college studies in history The Commentaries of Pius II, Leona Christine Gabel Author Pope Pius II Editor Leona Christine Gabel Publisher Dept. of history of Smith college, 1937
Before Italian expedition Prince of taranto wrote a letter to Skanderbeg
Scanderbeg answer..
To me it seems clear the ethnic awareness, while he is self-identified as Albanian "Then you too despise our race and reckon the Albanians as sheep. You talk in your usual scornful tone and appear to be ignorant of the origin of our race.". Aigest ( talk) 09:57, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Works of Fan S. Noli are used as referenced source for almost 40 statements.
I propose to double check all statements based solely on Noli because he made serious mistake in his works about Skanderbeg and used documents forged by Giammaria Biemmi as source for his works.
It is confirmed by
Kenneth M. Setton who stated that Noli had not discovered that Biemmi invented the "Anonymous of Antivari".(
Setton, Kenneth M. (1978),
The Papacy and the Levant (1204–1571), Volume II: The Fifteenth Century, DIANE Publishing, p. 102,
ISBN
0-87169-127-2, Unfortunately Athanase Gegaj, L'Albanie et I'invasion turque au XV siecle, Louvain and Paris, 1937, pp. 77-80, had not discovered that the "Anonymous of Antivari" was an invention of Biemmi, nor had Noli even by 1947.
)
I think that such serious mistake makes Fan S. Noli additionally non-reliable source (besides the fact that he is not contemporary historian and that his neutrality could be disputed because of his political engagement) for articles about Skanderbeg. Therefore I propose to investigate all informations which are referenced with his work and to remove informations which can not be supported by some other reliable source.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
FAQ does not support that Skanderbeg was only Catholic.
There are sources which support information that he was Orthodox before he was converted into Muslim like this source:
There was discussion on the talk page about this issue. It did not end with consensus.
Taking above in consideration please don't attribute Catholic Christian religion only to Skanderbeg before reaching consensus about it.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
There is important information about the church Skanderbeg married his wife. It was an Eastern Orthodox Ardenica Monastery.
Sources:
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't know was Skanderbeg Catholic or Orthodox in the begining of his life, but I do know that Skanderbeg was hailed as Athleta Christi by the Pope and was declared captain general of the Holy See, and that he was baptited into Roman Catholic church. Here are some sources:
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help)Anyway, I am pretty sure that it was like this: 1.) Christian, 2.) Islam, 3.) Roman Catholic. Was he Catholic or Orthodox in the first point under Christian, is hard to tell, as sources contradict here. But, the important thing is that in his last years (most important ones), he was a Roman Catholic.-- Kebeta ( talk) 21:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Please read WP:OR i.e don't attribute religious motivations to various actions. Skanderbeg was a Muslim when part of the Ottoman army i.e he didn't convert from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, so I think that it's time for a complete RSN about Schmitt because these are mistakes that even school textbooks don't make.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
References
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Newly placed COA of Kastrioti family has serious issue with providing reliable sources. User who made this COA ( User:MissMJ) stated that presented sources for such image are " randomly scanned illustration and speculation"
Therefore I will return the previous image.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:40, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
It is not so important, but it is interesting to know - Skanderbeg was granted nobility by Ragusans. If a main editor here can find a good place for this, that would be cool. -- Kebeta ( talk) 20:54, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
His mother may easily be Serbian, per sources, he was closely included in Second Battle of Kosovo aftermath, he was donating to Serbia monastery Hilandar, he is mentioned in Serbian literature numerous times. He IS very much related to this wikiproject. Why do you remove {{ WP Serbia}} tag? -- WhiteWriter speaks 12:20, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I would recommend posing this question to the Wiki Project page discussion : Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Serbia since the debate is really about whether or not this article is part of that project or not.— Leef5 TALK | CONTRIBS 13:40, 13 June 2011 (UTC) |
I found another work of Karl Hopf which is frequently mentioning Skanderbeg. It is published in 1869 on German language and is completely available online, within Denkschriften: Volume 16 - Page 117 published by Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien. Philosophisch-Historische Klasse, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften. Philosophisch-Historische Klasse. Maybe it would be a good idea to add it to the sources section?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:23, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
The article is too big. According to recommendation this guideline this article should be splitted. This issue was already noticed by many other users and therefore I propose to respect their opinion and reduce the size of the article. I think that there are sections (i.e. In literature and art) which could clearly be significantly reduced and expanded within completely another article. Any proposal how to do it?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
La Légende de Skanderbeg is work of Paul Pisani, written in 1891 and solely dedicated to Skanderbeg, written by scholar, and therefore it deserves to be included in the section about Skanderbeg in literature and art. It is obvious that section "In literature and art" is very big and should be expanded within separate article. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:02, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
There is something that Skanderbeg built, besides fortress near Dures. That is the village which name was Chorlu, mentioned in Babinger's work (p. 253). Maybe that information could be added to the article because it is probably one of two things Skanderbeg built in his life?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:37, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Problem: There is opinion that article is too long. Also, there are opinions that Source section is too big (expressed in the GA review and in the section above this one).
Proposals how to solve the problem: I propose to follow the recommendations of the GA reviewer and Wikipedia:Further reading and resolve the size issue of the sources section. That means that:
Comments are welcome.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 14:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Maybe we can solve the problem of sources section being too big by dividing it into two sections: the existing one and new one "Further reading" section.
I asked one user who is experienced with sources and referencing styles for help with this issue. Her opinion was:
Separation of the full book citations into two groups sounds sensible. Those not referred to from short notes can be separated off into a "Further reading" section (it would go between "Sources" and "External links", per MOS:APPENDIX): I count 42 of these. Those referred to from short notes should definitely stay where they are
42 ?! I propose to have separate sections for: 1) sources which are referred to (they would stay where they are now) and 2) those not referred to (they would be moved into new "Further reading" section). Is anybody against it?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:14, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
In the lede of this article is written that Skanderbeg was:
leader of the federation of the League of Lezhë
I propose to replace the word federation because League of Lezhe was not federation.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
There is succession box at the end of the article. I have few questions about it:
Added "Dominus Albaniae" (Lord of Albania). This is the title he used while signing his letters. His father Gjon Kastrioti was addressed as "Dominus partium Albaniae" (Lord of part of Albania) link Aigest ( talk) 08:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
After my question connected with providing the sources for information about Balaban Pasha being Prince of Kastrioti, User:Aigest changed it to another Ottoman timariot, Gjon Kastrioti. I propose to provide some sources for that claim, taking in consideration that text of the article says that Gjon Kastrioti was Ottoman timariot who Ottoman zeamet untill he died 6,5 years before Skanderbeg is claimed to succeed Gjon by gaining the title of Prince of Kastrioti.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 08:30, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Please confirm if above mentioned summary correctly interpret your claims?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 23:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I found interesting information about what Matthias Corvinus replied to pope when he criticized Korvin for his delay in starting war with Ottoman Empire in his letter written in July 1465.
If I would follow the example of Epirote (Skanderbeg)*, bragging about my victories all the time, adding to the chronicles every single village my forces burned in enemy territory, every single prisoner they captured and every peace of booty my men robbed, it would be obvious that my weapon was not still even when I was sitting in Budim.
Klaić, Vjekoslav (1904), "Ratovanje s Turcima (1464. — 1466) (War with Turks [1464. — 1466])",
Povjest Hrvata, od najstarijih vremena do svršetka XIX.stoljeća. (in Croatian), Zagreb: Tisak i Nakl. Knjižare Lav. Hartmana, p. 61,
OCLC
593973015, >Kad bi se ja povađao za Epiroćaninom (Skenderbegom)*, pisao je u svom odgovoru, >kad bi se ja svaki čas hvalio pobjedama, te dao upisati u Ijetopise svako selo, što su ga moje čete u neprijateljskoj zemlji spalile, svakoga čovjeka, kojega su zarobili, i svaki komad blaga, što su ga oteli, e onda bi se pokazalo, da moje oružje nije počivalo ni onda, kad sam ja u Budimu sjedio....«
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:36, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
The text of the article says:
"Although there have been many theories on the place where Skanderbeg was born,[134] the main biographers now tend to agree on the place of birth as the village of Sinë, in modern Albania."
Maybe it would be according to the NPOV policy to present to the readers all significant theories about his birthplace, not only one like in existing text of the article.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Although there have been many theories on the place where Skanderbeg was born,[134] the main biographers now tend to agree on the place of birth as the village of Sinë, in modern Albania. is a very concise way to deal with the birthplace. Btw is there even a theory that claims that his birthplace was a settlement within modern Macedonia? -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:35, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Skanderbegs Familie stammte aus der Region Dibra, die sich heute an der Grenze zwischen Albanien und Mazedonien befindet. Das Gebiet war im Mittelalter sowohl von albanischen als auch von slawischen Stämmen christlich-orthodoxen Glaubens besiedelt. Skanderbegs Mutter Vojsava war eine Serbin aus der einflussreichen Familie Brankovic. Der Name des Stammes Kastrioti leitet sich laut Schmitt vermutlich vom griechischen Wort «kastron» (Festung) ab....Skanderbeg family came from the region of Dibra, which is now located on the border between Albania and Macedonia.
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help) Read the authorization of this interview at the end of the page. The author of the quoted sentence is
Oliver Jens Schmitt. Let me present the source with explanation who is Oliver Jens Schmitt:
Momčilo Spremić, a member of
Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, specialist for
history of Balkans in
late middle ages
stated that Schmitt's work is the best biography of Skanderbeg till now ("најбоље написана историја Скендербега"). If I am not wrong, this main biographer of Skanderbeg does not support Sine thesis.--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
21:11, 24 August 2011 (UTC)Just noting that Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts is the same who made the SANU Memorandum (1986) ..edited by Serb intellectuals, as well as public officials, referred to in Part I of this Annex, expressed the plight of Kosovo's Serbs. The document was considered by many to be the heralding of a new ethnic nationalism. The paper placed the imprimatur of Serbia's most prestigious intellectuals on the cause of militant Serbian nationalism and was instrumental in spreading anti-Albanian sentiment. Some consider the SANU Memorandum has purpose of reviving the Greater Serbian ideology and to put it into political practice. According to American historian James J. Sadkovich SANU managed to galvanize Croats more than any Croatian far right group Aigest ( talk) 09:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Sources:
Гундулић је постао поверљива личност напуљског краља, коме је слао тајне извештаје из Дубровника o политичкој ситуацији на Балканском полуострву....Паладин Гундулић, поверљиво лице краља Ферантеа. Гундулић му је чинио разне услуге у Дубровнику, а, одлазио је и као његов амбасадор у Напуљ, па је тако био врлр заслужан за одржавање везе између Скендербега и напуљског... Gundulić became trusted person of king of Naples to whom he sent classified reports from Dubrovnik about political situation on the Balkans...Paladin Gundulić, a trusted person of the king Ferante. Gundulić did many favours to Ferante in Dubrovnik being his ambassador in Naples and therefore in charge for maintaining the connection between Skanderbeg and the king of Naples.
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help)Одржавање присних веза олакшано је и тиме што се у Скендербеговој служби налазио Дубровчанин Паладин Гундулић који му је свршавао многе дипломатске мисије... The close relationship was easier because there was one Ragusian, Paladin Gundulić who completed many diplomatic missions for Skanderbeg
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help).Maybe someone could find this information useful when adding information about diplomats and scribes who worked for Skanderbeg.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 14:21, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Please find below my conversation with User:Gaius Claudius Nero about sources used in article(s) about Skanderbeg. Since it is related to Skanderbeg I copied it here.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 16:18, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
I know that you are on wikibreak but I simply had to approach to you because I recently discovered about Biemmi and work of Noli which heavily relied on him and Barleti. Unfortunately, you too considered Biemmi as "one of the primary sources on Skanderbeg and his campaigns" and heavily relied many articles you wrote on questionable sources like:
...... The spurious correspondence of July and August 1443, between Ladislas and Scanderbeg (made up by Barletius, who should assigned it to the year 1444) ...
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help)) and invented correspondence between Skanderbeg and Sultan Mehmed II (
Setton, Kenneth (1976—1984),
The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571, vol. four volumes, American Philosophical Society, p. 73,
ISBN
978-0-87169-114-9, ...... He also invented a correspondence between Skanderbeg and Sultan Mehmed II to fit his interpretations of the events in 1461—1463 ...
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help))Unfortunately Athanase Gegaj, L'Albanie et I'invasion turque au XV siecle, Louvain and Paris, 1937, pp. 77-80, had not discovered that the "Anonymous of Antivari" was an invention of Biemmi, nor had Noli even by 1947.)
Unfortunately Athanase Gegaj, L'Albanie et I'invasion turque au XV siecle, Louvain and Paris, 1937, pp. 77-80, had not discovered that the "Anonymous of Antivari" was an invention of Biemmi, nor had Noli even by 1947.)
I believe that reliability, neutrality and credibility of above mentioned authors and their works is seriously questioned. I am sure that you are aware that we have serious problem with numerous statements and articles which heavily rely solely on above mentioned authors and their works.
What do you think how we can solve this problem?
Taking in consideration that you are on wiki break for next two weeks, I will leave this matter for now, regarding articles about numerous Skanderbeg's campaigns within Template:Ottoman-Albanian_Wars that you are main contributor of.
Please think about this issue. I hope that I can expect your proposal how to resolve this issue till the end of June?
Best regards,
-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I sense that this issue will never be resolved if we were the only ones involved so I suggest submitting it to WP:RSN.-- Gaius Claudius Nero ( talk) 00:40, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Even a quick look into the historiography of those times suffices to see the effort to adapt the story of Skenderbeg to contemporary ideological stipulations.
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help)Heute gibt es zwei Skanderbegs - den historischen und den zum Nationalhelden erhobenen Mythos, wie er in albanischen Schulen und von nationalistischen Intellektuellen in Tirana oder Prishtina dargestellt wird. Beide haben weniger miteinander zu tun als entfernte Verwandte.
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help)I started discussion about using the primary sources in the articles about Skanderbeg (like Biemmi and Barleti), about using the works of authors who are not historians (Hodgkinson and Francione) and about works of authors who are not contemporary historians (Noli and Gegaj) who heavily relied on forged sources (Biemmi) believing in its genuineness.
In your reply, Gaius Claudius Nero, you disputed reliability of contemporary historian Oliver Jens Schmitt. I don't understand your arguments without additional clarifications and translation. Therefore I need your help to better understand it before I can reply it.
Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion article is nominated for deletion. Since it is closely connected with Skanderbeg, maybe users interested in topic about Skanderbeg can say something about this nomination.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Myth of Skanderbeg article is nominated for deletion. Since it is closely connected with Skanderbeg, maybe users interested in topic about Skanderbeg can say something about this nomination.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Most problems are solved? Is anybody going to nominate this article for GA? ZjarriRrethues,...Antidiskriminator...?? -- Kebeta ( talk) 21:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
The military commanders, leaders and simple soldiers, i.e. the whole army fighting against Scanderbeg, consisted of local Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Vlachs. There were also Turkish Muslims in the Ottoman forces who owned timar lands. On the whole, it is evident that the rebels were not opposed by "foreign" invaders, but by local forces loyal to the new empire who were willing to fight members of their own ethnic groups longing for pre-Ottoman times)-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:25, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
I found three documents written and signed by Skanderbeg and available online:
All three links show documents from Dubrovnik archives which are published in "Monumenta serbica spectantia historiam Serbiae, Bosnae, Ragusii -Franz Miklǒsich - 1858"
Maybe those documents can be helpful to users interested in Skanderbeg.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 20:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
I will try to be bold here and make some changes that will maybe trigger an improvment from other users and move the article more toward GA status...I will not be offended if somebody decide to revert me...Regards, Kebeta ( talk) 14:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)You're misrepresenting and mistranslating a 17th century dictionary. That being said you should also expect a 3RR violation report. Antid. linguistic issues aren't solved by simply placing national labels on scripts. Neutrality is expected when there are multiple views, but regarding Skanderbeg's religion at the time of his birth/death date there aren't any conflicting opinions.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:47, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
... erst nach seiner Rückkehr vom Islam zum Christentum näherte Skanderbeg sich dem Katholizismus an ...[... only after his return from Islam to Christianity approached Scanderbeg on Catholicism ...]
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help)Biographies about Skanderbeg are not so numerous and I suppose that we should add all of them into Further Reading section. I found one more biography:
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help)I did't find any information about the author but I guess he was a historian. In that case we could add this work into further reading section?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
There are numerous sources about another nickname of Skanderbeg: “The White Devil of Wallachia”. Does anybody have any argument against inclusion this information to the text of the article?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
(unintend)If you do add them without a consensus, I'll have to ask for admin intervention as you've already received warnings by admins about your edits on Skanderbeg.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I am against recent adding of four images of monuments of Skanderbeg because:
Therefore I propose to remove all images (except one in Tirana), based on above mentioned arguments and wikipedia policies. Any comment?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 18:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
see also categories Given names of Greek language origin Greek masculine given names !!! -- 194.219.51.216 ( talk) 18:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
The text of the article says Their children included Gjon Kastrioti II.
If there were other children, then that information should be presented to the readers. If not, then above mentioned sentence should be changed to: They had one child, Gjon Kastrioti II.
Any comment?--
Antidiskriminator (
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14:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
If you are contemplating a Good Article status, you have to start from the very first lines.
1) What is the meaning "George ... or Gjergj..."? Does it mean that Sk. is found in the bibliography either as George or as Gjergj with no other choices? Or does it mean that he was calling himself "George" or "Gjergj"? Sources pleas. Note D contrasts the linked line because it says "lord of Albania".
The various names in the main sources are displayed in the relevant section.
2) What is the meaning of "Albanian lord"? Albanian in ethnicity or what? In the article about his mother it is clear that her nationality is uncertain (if we take seriously the pro-Albanian sources) or Slave if we rely on the modern academic sources. Now, let's take the pro-Albanian scenario that his father was Albanian and his mother of unscertain nationality. On what rule the child takes the "Albanian" from the father and not the "uncertain" from the mother? I suppose that WP conforms to the UN resolution of the womens' rights and does not adopt the ottoman rules.
But the article has to reflect all the possible scenarios and not the pro-Albanian one. So, according to many sources neither his father nor his mother were Albanians. Therefore, the "Albanian lord" violates the WP rules and we must seek a better phrasing. --
Euzen (
talk)
13:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I've stated before in this talk page to you personally Antid that Scanderbeg title was "Dominus Albaniae" which means "Lord of Albania" and you had not problems with that
see here so I am surprised you bring the same issue again. Don't be surprised then if others accuse you of trolling.
The title lord is commonly used for that period. Scanderbeg is called lord by his contemporaries:
The title Albanian lord (also Lord of Albania) is used in the general context by later historians for various figures in Albania and this does not constitute a POV, unless of course you want to accuse them of POV and for that you have other boards:
XIX century
XX century
So no WP:SYNTH, no WP:POV, no WP:OR, but instead links, references, cited texts from well respected historians during centuries which call Scanderbeg with the exact words "Lord of Albania" and "Albanian Lord" or "Albanian leader" etc. Hope this is the end of this repeated discussion. Aigest ( talk) 09:47, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The title "Lord of Albania" may be found in old books and archival material and is understood as a common hyperbole of middle ages. We have rulers who claimed (in papers) that rule half of the world. We have Kings and Queens "of Jerusalem" who couldn't see the city even by a telescope. The question is: Can this article define Sk. as "Albanian lord" while there are many of sources making his ethnicity uncertain? I think that a separate paragraph is needed referring to the debate about his origins. -- Euzen ( talk) 11:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
(unintend)Antid. please stick to the sources. You have been warned by admins regarding Skanderbeg discussions so it would be prudent to actually follow their suggestions and not insist on non-issues.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 05:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)