This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sinjar massacre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 4 September 2014 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Sinjar massacre, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.
|
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
I think we should merge the Zumar and Sinjar articles into one new overarching offensive article. Something like "Iraqi Kurdistan Offensive" or something, as a lot more towns than just these two were taken, and would allow for a more in depth explanation of the role the US is playing 24.185.209.60 ( talk) 21:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi first edit on Wikipedia, There should be a mention of the oil companies that pulled out staff in Iraqi Kurdistan just prior to the US airstrikes. In my perception, the direct threat of oil interests and of the US Consulate in Erbil have been prime motivators for the US intervention rather than the rhetoric on 'preventing genocide' as claimed. Perhaps the fact that the oil companies withdrew their staff due to the IS offensive and just prior to the US airstrikes should be mention. Source on the oil companies' withdrawal of staff Achilles M ( talk) 09:56, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Why is there a separate article on this incident? There is already an article on the Persecution of Yazidis by the Islamic State, and this short article could easily be incorporated into that. Much of this article is repetition of what is already there. -- P123ct1 ( talk) 07:55, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
I think this article is needed, but not only talking about Sinjar. But it should be about the whole war of ISIL. We can edit and expand it rather than delete it. Another option is to merge it with Northern Iraq war Pirehelokan ( talk) 06:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
From the page and the comments I can't quite understand if the pages deals only with one massacre in the town of Sinjar, or with all the massacres of Yazidis in the Sinjar district. If the latter case is correct, there would be need of a) moving the number of Yazidis killed from 500 to 5,000, as UN sources state ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2792552/full-horror-yazidis-didn-t-escape-mount-sinjar-confirms-5-000-men-executed-7-000-women-kept-sex-slaves.html), and b) to describe all the massacres of Yazidis in Sinjar region (Quiniyeh, 70-90 killed; Hardan, 60 killed; Ramadi Jabal, 60-70 killed; Dhola, 50 killed; Khana Sor, 100 killed; Hardan, 250-300 killed; al-Shimal, "dozens" of dead; Khocho, 400 killed; Tal Afar prison, 200 killed; Jidala, 14 killed; plus the hundreds who died along the roads and while fleeing to the mountains, the abductions, and the killings with less than ten dead) with the details contained in this OHRCHR/UNAMI report: http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/IQ/UNAMI_OHCHR_POC_Report_FINAL_6July_10September2014.pdf -- 2.35.58.16 ( talk) 22:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
What’s wrong with LightandDark2000? Since 24 March, I keep reverting his (unmotivated) edits, and have asked him several times to source and motivate his edits. Once again I ask him:
can he please first try to grasp what a colleague is saying, contending, to him, and, if he thinks the colleague is wrong, clearly say and explain why or where he is wrong—in stead of impassively or gruffly repeating his already denounced edits, not heeding the clear objections of others?
In edits 25 March, 14:33, and 26 March, 06:08, on article Sinjar massacre, I’ve argued that a source(hurr11-3-14) from 9Aug(!) can’t give information on “allowing Yazidis to escape” on 13 August(!), and that none of the four sources NYT13-8-14 , vice-16aug2014 , reuters-26aug and globalpost-29aug (until this morning numbered as refs 16,6,7,8) mentions that “on 13 August2014, …break the ISIL Siege of Mount Sinjar”.
Nevertheless: on 27 March, 10:54, LD2 again reinserted those two contentions, without any new, or better, sourcing, and without even reacting on my motivating comments of 25+26March. Which addings I again removed 27March12:18, again urging LD2 to motivate such edits—especially ofcourse when edits have been reverted, with clear motivation, just one or two days before!
But again: 28March00:28, LD2 reinserted exactly those same two contentions with exactly the same five would-be ‘sourcing’ references—which still ofcourse don’t source nor prove those two contentions at all—saying: “it is all sourced”.
No: those two contentions are not sourced. How can a ref article of 9 Aug (Hurriyet Daily, 9 August 2014, until this morning ref 17) ‘reveal’ anything about “…allowing to escape” on 13 August!? And, where in any of those other four given ‘sources’(old refs 16,6,7,8) is a mentioning of anything, just anything, happening or changing in or around Sinjar on exactly 13 August!?
Also, I happen to discover that LD2 sort of consistently removes whole (long) discussions from his Talk page. For example twice on 28 March, this one about ‘Hasakah’ and this one about ‘Kobani’, but also a discussion of mine on 24 March. Why does he quickly remove such discussions? Does he want to conceal from the Wiki community that he is having difficult or weary or annoying discussions with really a lot of colleagues? -- Corriebertus ( talk) 14:16, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Colleagues, I notice that in the recent 1½ days, 36 edits have been made by two editors and I see a worrying, undesirable contradiction or inconsistency having arisen in the article.
I’ve always considered this article to be about the massacre in the city of Sinjar (2,000 deaths max.), because the ‘body-text’ of the article—meaning the text except the lead (which ought to be only a summary of the text of the body)—covers and presents only that: the assault on the city of Sinjar and its consequences in those mountains.
The rest of those 5,000 deaths occurred also during the August 2014 offensive and were, to my knowing, presented in both ‘
Northern Iraq offensive (August 2014)’ and ‘
Persecution of Yazidis by ISIL’—or, if that presentation was not yet in good order, that presentation could and should be improved in those two articles.
Suddenly in the last day however, someone changed the lead, as to say now that the Sinj.mass. article would cover those massacres “in the city of Sinjar and surrounding area in the Nineveh Governorate” (“possibly” 5,000 deaths…but in the Infobox the word ‘possibly’ is left out: that (too) is contradicting…).
However, the article itself is not changed in that respect, and is still only presenting (in §2 “…massacre”) the massacre in the city of Sinjar.
That seems to me inconstent, contradictory, and (therefore) possibly confusing for readers.
If you want to ‘re-invent’ or (re-)define this article, following some (arbitrary, personal) definition (in your own head) saying it should cover massacres also outside the city of Sinjar, then make sure that the article-body really does present all those massacres.
I do not favour that point of view—I think the encyclopedia would be clearer and better organised by leaving only the massacre of the city of Sinjar in this article and leave the rest of the 5,000-deaths-massacres in those two other above-mentioned articles.
But what I abominate above all are contradictory, inconsistent (and/or ambiguous and/or confusing and/or misleading) articles, the way one (or two) of you have made it now, in the recent 30 hours.
(P.S. Strikingly enough, also the section §’Other massacres by ISIL’, with wikilinks: ‘Main articles: Northern Iraq offensive (August 2014) and Persecution of Yazidis by ISIL’ has been removed. What is going on here?…) --
Corriebertus (
talk)
17:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Until 30 March,11:19, page Sinjar massacre presented two larger events, clearly and distinctly:
Also the article contained, clearly and distinctly, a short mentioning (in §5) of:
That version had two flaws though, which even until this morning had not been discovered and repaired:
— (1) The first flaw was, that the article asserted that event (A), ‘massacre in Sinjar’ with 500–2,000 deaths, occurred in the city of
Sinjar. Source CNN6August (‘500 deaths’) clearly said so; source CNN7Aug (‘2,000 deaths’) is unspecific about either ‘city’ or ‘district’ Sinjar, so apparently we assumed that it also pertained to ‘city’ of Sinjar. But just now I’ve discovered a new source, The New Yorker 6 Aug, which clearly links those ‘2,000 massacred in Sinjar’ to
the district of Sinjar;
— (2) The second weak point was, that the article, though referring, in section 5, to the larger ISIL August massacre on Yazidis with 5,000 deaths (presented in Persecution of Yazidis by ISIL), neglected to clearly point out, preferably in the lead section, that (event (A)) ‘Sinjar massacre’ simply formed a part of that larger (event (C)) massacre.
Until this morning, neither of those two flaws (see above) had been discovered and mended by anyone, which ofcourse can’t be taken ill of anyone. EkoGraf however on 30 March did start on a number of incorrect edits, after a few hours joined by LightandDark2000 – incorrect edits that mainly mixed-up, confused, features of the above-mentioned three events (A), (B) and (C) by sticking them to the wrong event; edits of which I’ll now first explain, one by one, why I had to remove them today—while ofcourse leaving intact all their good edits:
One of the old sources, which we thought to refer to massacre in city of Sinjar (section §3: CNN, 7 August, ‘2,000 deaths’), in a new source(New Yorker, 6 August) appears to refer to massacre in district of Sinjar. Therefore, it seems logical to change the scope of the article now to district of Sinjar.
I’ve found two more new sources with estimates of the number of casualties, one referring to Sinjar city, the other to Sinjar district. That brings us on four different counts, which I’ve put together now in a new (sub)section (§2.1). It is important that we make clear that those counts are only estimates, we don’t yet know what the real number is.
I admit that the episode of evacuation of refugees from the Sinjar Mountains seems complicated, and that its presentation in our article on 30March,11:19, was possibly confusing and not good enough. EkoGraf made since then some useful remarks and improvements in section 3, which I’ve preserved in my today’s edit. On the other hand:
But also I have, after studying the material again, the idea that the old version before 30March was not clear and precise enough, and have therefore now rewritten and restructured section 3, hopefully clearer but certainly more precisely based on the given sources—while ofcourse preserving the good edits of EkoGraf. The section now starts with new information of food droppings on 5 and 7 August.
Bejnar, on 2 April, replaced new citations for two contentions that I had called in question earlier that day: ‘…surrounded by ISIL’ and ‘…firing on them’. ‘Firing on them’ is indeed being said in his new source Epoch Times. ‘Surrounded by ISIL’ however is not being said in any of those new sources: only partial surrounding of the Sinjar Mountains is being said, in source guardian 8 August. I’ve corrected the article accordingly.
If, as I argued (in II: ‘Number of deaths’), this article presents massacres in both city and district of Sinjar, and we accept the fact that the numbers of deaths are only estimates, ofcourse the lead section must adapt to that new situation.
As I said in the beginning of this posting (‘two flaws’): the most logical place to mention that this Sinjar massacre is part of
the larger ISIL August 2014 massacre on Yazidis, is in the lead section – which makes old section 5 redundant.
While I’ve argued above (see II: ‘Number of deaths’) why it is logical to let this article cover the August massacres in district of Sinjar, I’ve, accordingly, added new information in §2, telling how ISIL not only captured the town of Sinjar on 3 August – what we already had described in the section – but also on that day “the Sinjar area”, and how they went about murdering Yazidi civilians there.
I’ve corrected the plea of Tahseen Said on 3 (not 4) August from a new ref source; and called him world Yazidi leader and ‘Prince’ (not emir).
EkoGraf made some good correcting edits here, which I’ve preserved. On the other hand:
First, I want to give you a piece of advice, nobody on Wikipedia will read this much stuff that you wrote and Wikipedia actually requests of you to be short and simple and advises against this much writing. Thus I have no intention of reading everything you wrote. The only thing I will respond is to three things. The 5,000 dead; the time of the killings; the sieges.
The UN was clear when it said 5,000 Yazidis were massacred and all examples it pointed to were from the Sinjar area and the August time period and all news sources that reported on the killings at the time reported of killings from that specific area. There were never any reports on killings of Yazidis outside the Sinjar district. So if you have theories that killings took place outside Sinjar you need to back them up with sources. The time of the killings - sources clearly point to the massacres taking place well into August (which editor Light also agreed to) and not just those first few days of the month. I provided a source now for a massacre taking place in a village as late as 25 August. The sieges - I am not obliged to define anything except to write what is in the sources. And the sources are clear...there was a siege in August which was broken and several months later there was a new partial siege which was also later broken. You can have your personal opinions on the definition of siege and can debate the issue, but Wikipedia is written based on what the sources say and we stick to that. PS I put the 5,000 mention in the aftermath section because the UN report came out two months AFTER the killings. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Forgot one more thing...the different narratives section, I purposely rewrote the text so it would be more encyclopedic because Wikipedia IS an encyclopedia and give it a historical context and you still reinserted it back. I would ask that you please do not do this again. Its non-encyclopedic. Also, you included in the infobox lots of counts from the very first few days. Per WP policy newer sources/reports trump older more out-dated ones. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:26, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
I made now some more corrections, leaving some of your useful info as well, I hope you will agree to it. EkoGraf ( talk) 19:39, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Is EkoGraf new on Wikipedia? In that case, I’d have to explain to him: Wikipedia is a cooperative project; and therefore, it is good custom to motivate our edits, as this helps others to understand the intention of those edits. Especially now that we are having discussions already over three issues in this article – see my next three edits in the article – it does not help us to sort those issues out if editors mix those unsolved issues with other edits (which they don’t motivate). -- Corriebertus ( talk) 12:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
In August2014, a path was cleared to enable Yazidis to evacuate from Sinjar Mountains but there are different narratives about who deserves the credit for that.
It is not unusual in wars that events are portrayed differently by different parties. In such cases, it is our (Wikipedia’s encyclopedic) job to clearly
present those different views.
So, that’s what the article did in subsection 3.2, before EkoGraf on 26April drasticly and for me uncomprehensibly reshuffled that subsection. Something in it seemed to be wrong to Eko’s opinion, but he doesn’t make clear to me what that is. In his—to my opinion—rather gibberish ‘sentences’ 14,15,16
in his posting on this Talk page of 26April he says that something in it was “non-encyclopedic”, but I’ve no idea what was non-encyclopedic in it, and why. And he makes a vague remark about “historical context”, again I’ve no idea what he is talking about. The whole article is ‘history’, if EkoGraf wants to add something to it, fine, but what was he adding? And why does he remove or shuffle that clear presentation of three narratives? --
Corriebertus (
talk)
12:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
All of the places listed as examples in the report for the 5,000 are in the Sinjar area and also there were no other reported killings of Yazidis outside that area at that time. EkoGraf ( talk) 17:18, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
EkoGraf, in
his edit of 26April,18:54, added in the infobox the “Result: U.S. airstrikes (…) break the ISIL siege of Mount Sinjar (…)”. In his
posting on this talk page on 26April, sentence 11, he motivated: “the sources are clear… there was a siege”.
But I can find only one source in our article saying an ISIL siege of Mt Sinjar has existed in August2014: the US government as paraphrased (not quoted) in
the New York Times article of 13Aug2014 saying they had broken an ISIL siege of Mount Sinjar. That source is not to be regarded as neutral though: the US is party in this conflict and has therefore an interest to boast with their successes and make them look and sound as impressive as possible. The objective facts we know about the situation around that mountain around that time don’t comply with the definition of ‘
siege’, and the US government is not to be considered an objective source to overrule what we can see and conclude ourselves from all publicly available information.
That evacuation of Yazidis from those mountains (see section 4.2) was indeed a succes, for the US and Kurdish groups working to help those Yazidis. But as long as there is no clear and neutral information indicating a ‘siege’ had been going on, I don’t think it is our job to parrot the US government’s propaganda saying it was a ‘siege being broken’. --
Corriebertus (
talk)
12:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I will repeat like before. Lightanddark and myself explained to you the reasoning behind our edits, despite your claims we are making unmotivated edits. What you think about sources calling the events a siege is your personal POV. Wikipedia's policy on common names is clear on this issue. And the common name the sources use to describe this event is siege. EkoGraf ( talk) 11:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
"I went to seven mass grave sites with local police and I found there wasn't a single body there." --> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/isis-yazidi-massacre_55ccc5d7e4b0cacb8d33342b — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.224.197.39 ( talk) 02:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/isis-yazidi-massacre_55ccc5d7e4b0cacb8d33342b "The remains of 67 people found in mass graves in northern Iraq were finally laid to rest this week, Kurdish media reported. They were members of Iraq's Yazidi minority, killed by the Islamic State militant group, also known as ISIS, as it rampaged through the community's homelands near Mount Sinjar one year ago, according to Rudaw news agency." -- 217.224.201.10 ( talk) 04:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
And there are more. Maybe somebody could put these infos in the text?-- 93.70.1.9 ( talk) 22:49, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Turkish press is closed and it is unreliable. Check the press freedom index. Be careful when you use Turkish sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ferakp ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Sinjar massacre. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
This photograph is featured in the article - /info/en/?search=File:ISIS.in.Sinjar.jpg, is there any proof that this is a real photograph? It looks fake, no reason for a photograph to be being taken, the fake flag taped to the wall etc. Image page also has no references of where it was found. Tyrroi ( talk) 18:12, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sinjar massacre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 4 September 2014 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Sinjar massacre, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.
|
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
I think we should merge the Zumar and Sinjar articles into one new overarching offensive article. Something like "Iraqi Kurdistan Offensive" or something, as a lot more towns than just these two were taken, and would allow for a more in depth explanation of the role the US is playing 24.185.209.60 ( talk) 21:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi first edit on Wikipedia, There should be a mention of the oil companies that pulled out staff in Iraqi Kurdistan just prior to the US airstrikes. In my perception, the direct threat of oil interests and of the US Consulate in Erbil have been prime motivators for the US intervention rather than the rhetoric on 'preventing genocide' as claimed. Perhaps the fact that the oil companies withdrew their staff due to the IS offensive and just prior to the US airstrikes should be mention. Source on the oil companies' withdrawal of staff Achilles M ( talk) 09:56, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Why is there a separate article on this incident? There is already an article on the Persecution of Yazidis by the Islamic State, and this short article could easily be incorporated into that. Much of this article is repetition of what is already there. -- P123ct1 ( talk) 07:55, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
I think this article is needed, but not only talking about Sinjar. But it should be about the whole war of ISIL. We can edit and expand it rather than delete it. Another option is to merge it with Northern Iraq war Pirehelokan ( talk) 06:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
From the page and the comments I can't quite understand if the pages deals only with one massacre in the town of Sinjar, or with all the massacres of Yazidis in the Sinjar district. If the latter case is correct, there would be need of a) moving the number of Yazidis killed from 500 to 5,000, as UN sources state ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2792552/full-horror-yazidis-didn-t-escape-mount-sinjar-confirms-5-000-men-executed-7-000-women-kept-sex-slaves.html), and b) to describe all the massacres of Yazidis in Sinjar region (Quiniyeh, 70-90 killed; Hardan, 60 killed; Ramadi Jabal, 60-70 killed; Dhola, 50 killed; Khana Sor, 100 killed; Hardan, 250-300 killed; al-Shimal, "dozens" of dead; Khocho, 400 killed; Tal Afar prison, 200 killed; Jidala, 14 killed; plus the hundreds who died along the roads and while fleeing to the mountains, the abductions, and the killings with less than ten dead) with the details contained in this OHRCHR/UNAMI report: http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/IQ/UNAMI_OHCHR_POC_Report_FINAL_6July_10September2014.pdf -- 2.35.58.16 ( talk) 22:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
What’s wrong with LightandDark2000? Since 24 March, I keep reverting his (unmotivated) edits, and have asked him several times to source and motivate his edits. Once again I ask him:
can he please first try to grasp what a colleague is saying, contending, to him, and, if he thinks the colleague is wrong, clearly say and explain why or where he is wrong—in stead of impassively or gruffly repeating his already denounced edits, not heeding the clear objections of others?
In edits 25 March, 14:33, and 26 March, 06:08, on article Sinjar massacre, I’ve argued that a source(hurr11-3-14) from 9Aug(!) can’t give information on “allowing Yazidis to escape” on 13 August(!), and that none of the four sources NYT13-8-14 , vice-16aug2014 , reuters-26aug and globalpost-29aug (until this morning numbered as refs 16,6,7,8) mentions that “on 13 August2014, …break the ISIL Siege of Mount Sinjar”.
Nevertheless: on 27 March, 10:54, LD2 again reinserted those two contentions, without any new, or better, sourcing, and without even reacting on my motivating comments of 25+26March. Which addings I again removed 27March12:18, again urging LD2 to motivate such edits—especially ofcourse when edits have been reverted, with clear motivation, just one or two days before!
But again: 28March00:28, LD2 reinserted exactly those same two contentions with exactly the same five would-be ‘sourcing’ references—which still ofcourse don’t source nor prove those two contentions at all—saying: “it is all sourced”.
No: those two contentions are not sourced. How can a ref article of 9 Aug (Hurriyet Daily, 9 August 2014, until this morning ref 17) ‘reveal’ anything about “…allowing to escape” on 13 August!? And, where in any of those other four given ‘sources’(old refs 16,6,7,8) is a mentioning of anything, just anything, happening or changing in or around Sinjar on exactly 13 August!?
Also, I happen to discover that LD2 sort of consistently removes whole (long) discussions from his Talk page. For example twice on 28 March, this one about ‘Hasakah’ and this one about ‘Kobani’, but also a discussion of mine on 24 March. Why does he quickly remove such discussions? Does he want to conceal from the Wiki community that he is having difficult or weary or annoying discussions with really a lot of colleagues? -- Corriebertus ( talk) 14:16, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Colleagues, I notice that in the recent 1½ days, 36 edits have been made by two editors and I see a worrying, undesirable contradiction or inconsistency having arisen in the article.
I’ve always considered this article to be about the massacre in the city of Sinjar (2,000 deaths max.), because the ‘body-text’ of the article—meaning the text except the lead (which ought to be only a summary of the text of the body)—covers and presents only that: the assault on the city of Sinjar and its consequences in those mountains.
The rest of those 5,000 deaths occurred also during the August 2014 offensive and were, to my knowing, presented in both ‘
Northern Iraq offensive (August 2014)’ and ‘
Persecution of Yazidis by ISIL’—or, if that presentation was not yet in good order, that presentation could and should be improved in those two articles.
Suddenly in the last day however, someone changed the lead, as to say now that the Sinj.mass. article would cover those massacres “in the city of Sinjar and surrounding area in the Nineveh Governorate” (“possibly” 5,000 deaths…but in the Infobox the word ‘possibly’ is left out: that (too) is contradicting…).
However, the article itself is not changed in that respect, and is still only presenting (in §2 “…massacre”) the massacre in the city of Sinjar.
That seems to me inconstent, contradictory, and (therefore) possibly confusing for readers.
If you want to ‘re-invent’ or (re-)define this article, following some (arbitrary, personal) definition (in your own head) saying it should cover massacres also outside the city of Sinjar, then make sure that the article-body really does present all those massacres.
I do not favour that point of view—I think the encyclopedia would be clearer and better organised by leaving only the massacre of the city of Sinjar in this article and leave the rest of the 5,000-deaths-massacres in those two other above-mentioned articles.
But what I abominate above all are contradictory, inconsistent (and/or ambiguous and/or confusing and/or misleading) articles, the way one (or two) of you have made it now, in the recent 30 hours.
(P.S. Strikingly enough, also the section §’Other massacres by ISIL’, with wikilinks: ‘Main articles: Northern Iraq offensive (August 2014) and Persecution of Yazidis by ISIL’ has been removed. What is going on here?…) --
Corriebertus (
talk)
17:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Until 30 March,11:19, page Sinjar massacre presented two larger events, clearly and distinctly:
Also the article contained, clearly and distinctly, a short mentioning (in §5) of:
That version had two flaws though, which even until this morning had not been discovered and repaired:
— (1) The first flaw was, that the article asserted that event (A), ‘massacre in Sinjar’ with 500–2,000 deaths, occurred in the city of
Sinjar. Source CNN6August (‘500 deaths’) clearly said so; source CNN7Aug (‘2,000 deaths’) is unspecific about either ‘city’ or ‘district’ Sinjar, so apparently we assumed that it also pertained to ‘city’ of Sinjar. But just now I’ve discovered a new source, The New Yorker 6 Aug, which clearly links those ‘2,000 massacred in Sinjar’ to
the district of Sinjar;
— (2) The second weak point was, that the article, though referring, in section 5, to the larger ISIL August massacre on Yazidis with 5,000 deaths (presented in Persecution of Yazidis by ISIL), neglected to clearly point out, preferably in the lead section, that (event (A)) ‘Sinjar massacre’ simply formed a part of that larger (event (C)) massacre.
Until this morning, neither of those two flaws (see above) had been discovered and mended by anyone, which ofcourse can’t be taken ill of anyone. EkoGraf however on 30 March did start on a number of incorrect edits, after a few hours joined by LightandDark2000 – incorrect edits that mainly mixed-up, confused, features of the above-mentioned three events (A), (B) and (C) by sticking them to the wrong event; edits of which I’ll now first explain, one by one, why I had to remove them today—while ofcourse leaving intact all their good edits:
One of the old sources, which we thought to refer to massacre in city of Sinjar (section §3: CNN, 7 August, ‘2,000 deaths’), in a new source(New Yorker, 6 August) appears to refer to massacre in district of Sinjar. Therefore, it seems logical to change the scope of the article now to district of Sinjar.
I’ve found two more new sources with estimates of the number of casualties, one referring to Sinjar city, the other to Sinjar district. That brings us on four different counts, which I’ve put together now in a new (sub)section (§2.1). It is important that we make clear that those counts are only estimates, we don’t yet know what the real number is.
I admit that the episode of evacuation of refugees from the Sinjar Mountains seems complicated, and that its presentation in our article on 30March,11:19, was possibly confusing and not good enough. EkoGraf made since then some useful remarks and improvements in section 3, which I’ve preserved in my today’s edit. On the other hand:
But also I have, after studying the material again, the idea that the old version before 30March was not clear and precise enough, and have therefore now rewritten and restructured section 3, hopefully clearer but certainly more precisely based on the given sources—while ofcourse preserving the good edits of EkoGraf. The section now starts with new information of food droppings on 5 and 7 August.
Bejnar, on 2 April, replaced new citations for two contentions that I had called in question earlier that day: ‘…surrounded by ISIL’ and ‘…firing on them’. ‘Firing on them’ is indeed being said in his new source Epoch Times. ‘Surrounded by ISIL’ however is not being said in any of those new sources: only partial surrounding of the Sinjar Mountains is being said, in source guardian 8 August. I’ve corrected the article accordingly.
If, as I argued (in II: ‘Number of deaths’), this article presents massacres in both city and district of Sinjar, and we accept the fact that the numbers of deaths are only estimates, ofcourse the lead section must adapt to that new situation.
As I said in the beginning of this posting (‘two flaws’): the most logical place to mention that this Sinjar massacre is part of
the larger ISIL August 2014 massacre on Yazidis, is in the lead section – which makes old section 5 redundant.
While I’ve argued above (see II: ‘Number of deaths’) why it is logical to let this article cover the August massacres in district of Sinjar, I’ve, accordingly, added new information in §2, telling how ISIL not only captured the town of Sinjar on 3 August – what we already had described in the section – but also on that day “the Sinjar area”, and how they went about murdering Yazidi civilians there.
I’ve corrected the plea of Tahseen Said on 3 (not 4) August from a new ref source; and called him world Yazidi leader and ‘Prince’ (not emir).
EkoGraf made some good correcting edits here, which I’ve preserved. On the other hand:
First, I want to give you a piece of advice, nobody on Wikipedia will read this much stuff that you wrote and Wikipedia actually requests of you to be short and simple and advises against this much writing. Thus I have no intention of reading everything you wrote. The only thing I will respond is to three things. The 5,000 dead; the time of the killings; the sieges.
The UN was clear when it said 5,000 Yazidis were massacred and all examples it pointed to were from the Sinjar area and the August time period and all news sources that reported on the killings at the time reported of killings from that specific area. There were never any reports on killings of Yazidis outside the Sinjar district. So if you have theories that killings took place outside Sinjar you need to back them up with sources. The time of the killings - sources clearly point to the massacres taking place well into August (which editor Light also agreed to) and not just those first few days of the month. I provided a source now for a massacre taking place in a village as late as 25 August. The sieges - I am not obliged to define anything except to write what is in the sources. And the sources are clear...there was a siege in August which was broken and several months later there was a new partial siege which was also later broken. You can have your personal opinions on the definition of siege and can debate the issue, but Wikipedia is written based on what the sources say and we stick to that. PS I put the 5,000 mention in the aftermath section because the UN report came out two months AFTER the killings. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Forgot one more thing...the different narratives section, I purposely rewrote the text so it would be more encyclopedic because Wikipedia IS an encyclopedia and give it a historical context and you still reinserted it back. I would ask that you please do not do this again. Its non-encyclopedic. Also, you included in the infobox lots of counts from the very first few days. Per WP policy newer sources/reports trump older more out-dated ones. EkoGraf ( talk) 18:26, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
I made now some more corrections, leaving some of your useful info as well, I hope you will agree to it. EkoGraf ( talk) 19:39, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
Is EkoGraf new on Wikipedia? In that case, I’d have to explain to him: Wikipedia is a cooperative project; and therefore, it is good custom to motivate our edits, as this helps others to understand the intention of those edits. Especially now that we are having discussions already over three issues in this article – see my next three edits in the article – it does not help us to sort those issues out if editors mix those unsolved issues with other edits (which they don’t motivate). -- Corriebertus ( talk) 12:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
In August2014, a path was cleared to enable Yazidis to evacuate from Sinjar Mountains but there are different narratives about who deserves the credit for that.
It is not unusual in wars that events are portrayed differently by different parties. In such cases, it is our (Wikipedia’s encyclopedic) job to clearly
present those different views.
So, that’s what the article did in subsection 3.2, before EkoGraf on 26April drasticly and for me uncomprehensibly reshuffled that subsection. Something in it seemed to be wrong to Eko’s opinion, but he doesn’t make clear to me what that is. In his—to my opinion—rather gibberish ‘sentences’ 14,15,16
in his posting on this Talk page of 26April he says that something in it was “non-encyclopedic”, but I’ve no idea what was non-encyclopedic in it, and why. And he makes a vague remark about “historical context”, again I’ve no idea what he is talking about. The whole article is ‘history’, if EkoGraf wants to add something to it, fine, but what was he adding? And why does he remove or shuffle that clear presentation of three narratives? --
Corriebertus (
talk)
12:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
All of the places listed as examples in the report for the 5,000 are in the Sinjar area and also there were no other reported killings of Yazidis outside that area at that time. EkoGraf ( talk) 17:18, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
EkoGraf, in
his edit of 26April,18:54, added in the infobox the “Result: U.S. airstrikes (…) break the ISIL siege of Mount Sinjar (…)”. In his
posting on this talk page on 26April, sentence 11, he motivated: “the sources are clear… there was a siege”.
But I can find only one source in our article saying an ISIL siege of Mt Sinjar has existed in August2014: the US government as paraphrased (not quoted) in
the New York Times article of 13Aug2014 saying they had broken an ISIL siege of Mount Sinjar. That source is not to be regarded as neutral though: the US is party in this conflict and has therefore an interest to boast with their successes and make them look and sound as impressive as possible. The objective facts we know about the situation around that mountain around that time don’t comply with the definition of ‘
siege’, and the US government is not to be considered an objective source to overrule what we can see and conclude ourselves from all publicly available information.
That evacuation of Yazidis from those mountains (see section 4.2) was indeed a succes, for the US and Kurdish groups working to help those Yazidis. But as long as there is no clear and neutral information indicating a ‘siege’ had been going on, I don’t think it is our job to parrot the US government’s propaganda saying it was a ‘siege being broken’. --
Corriebertus (
talk)
12:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I will repeat like before. Lightanddark and myself explained to you the reasoning behind our edits, despite your claims we are making unmotivated edits. What you think about sources calling the events a siege is your personal POV. Wikipedia's policy on common names is clear on this issue. And the common name the sources use to describe this event is siege. EkoGraf ( talk) 11:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
"I went to seven mass grave sites with local police and I found there wasn't a single body there." --> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/isis-yazidi-massacre_55ccc5d7e4b0cacb8d33342b — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.224.197.39 ( talk) 02:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/isis-yazidi-massacre_55ccc5d7e4b0cacb8d33342b "The remains of 67 people found in mass graves in northern Iraq were finally laid to rest this week, Kurdish media reported. They were members of Iraq's Yazidi minority, killed by the Islamic State militant group, also known as ISIS, as it rampaged through the community's homelands near Mount Sinjar one year ago, according to Rudaw news agency." -- 217.224.201.10 ( talk) 04:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
And there are more. Maybe somebody could put these infos in the text?-- 93.70.1.9 ( talk) 22:49, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Turkish press is closed and it is unreliable. Check the press freedom index. Be careful when you use Turkish sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ferakp ( talk • contribs) 15:41, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Sinjar massacre. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 12:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
This photograph is featured in the article - /info/en/?search=File:ISIS.in.Sinjar.jpg, is there any proof that this is a real photograph? It looks fake, no reason for a photograph to be being taken, the fake flag taped to the wall etc. Image page also has no references of where it was found. Tyrroi ( talk) 18:12, 25 January 2017 (UTC)