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The SBT is NOT synonymous with the Lone Gunman theory. The SBT just explains how three shots could have been fired from one gun and caused all the wounds in the time span in which those wounds were thought to have occurred. Many consider it to be an essential part of the Lone Gunman theory. However, this was not the view of 3 of the 7 Warren Commission members: Rep. Richard Russell, Sen. John Cooper, and Rep. Hale Boggs, nor was it the view of the Connallys. Saskcitation 22:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
sorry, i think Alvarez' theory was separate. I got confused by JFK's "nuclear physicists" line. -- Kwantus 16:16, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
re slight wrangle over "conspiracy theory" -- what i'm trying to get at, without actually saying it, is that the WC clearly set out with the idee fixe that LHO acted alone, and then filtered and wrought the facts to fit. They rejected a conspiracy theory (in the literal sense) at all costs, willing to kite this absurd MBT rather than admit the obvious, that multiple persons were involved -- Kwantus 17:18, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I recall reading that there's another problem with the 3-bullet theory: one of the shells found was damaged in such a way it could not have been the source of a bullet. Thus there's actually only two bullets available for the official nonconspiracy theory. I must try to refind that -- Kwantus 17:27, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
might need a little correcting: i think the bullet is supposed to have hit JFK in the back and turned upward, exited at the throat and turning downward -- ie more strange zigzagging. There's also the July 1997 kafuffle about Gerry Ford fudging something to make the path through JFK less crazy. [2]
Looks good, Gerd. What I started with was pretty editorial. Looks like you've added (or re-added) in facts but not skewed into opinion, which was th original problem - thanks. Skybunny 22:11, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
"one [shot] hit the curb [injuring] Tague" I may have miswritten that. I think it was a full bullet that hit the curb, but the WC--which is the context--may have tried to account for that as a fragment of the head shot. [3]
See the FBI report on the analysis of the curb fragment, August 12, 1964: Shaneyfelt Exhibit 27, WC 21 H 475. There was no copper in the curb sample that was analysed, which one would expect if the jacketed bullet had struck the curb. Also, the curb was a scratch, not a gouge. The FBI concludes that the mark on the curb was not caused by “the first impact of a high velocity rifle bullet”. Saskcitation 19:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I just added a note about another meaning for "Magic bullet:" Paul Ehrlich's characterization of a goal which he believed was achieved with Salvarsan. It doesn't look right in the table of contents, though. If this article is to be kept under the heading "Magic bullet theory" perhaps a disambiguation page is needed. I hadn't actually checked before writing the note, but I see that the existing entries for Paul Ehrlich, Salvarsan, and arsphenamine all make specific use of the phrase "magic bullet" buttressing my assertion that the phrase is truly connected with Ehrlich and Salvarsan. Dpbsmith 18:11, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Anyone who would, entirely for free, and objectively like to have supplied for themself ANY specific reference you need for any detail, or, anyone who has never read the entire reports, never read the followup evidentiary and testimonies volumes, or never read for yourself the back round investigative files and individual documents performed by the following partial list of investigative agencies/departments/bodies, please, feel free, to contact me privately, anytime, with your specific reference request or constructive, detailed, referenced comments:
Parkland Hospital Doctors Reports, U.S. Navy Bethesda Hospital Autopsists Reports, Dallas Police Department Reports, Dallas County Surveyors Report, U.S. Defense Investigative Service Reports, U.S. Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms Reports, U.S. Navy Investigative Service Reports, U.S. Marine Corps Investigative Reports, U.S. State Department Reports, U.S. F.B.I. Report, U.S. Secret Service Report, U.S. National Security Agency Report, Texas Attorney General Report, Texas Rangers Investigative Reports, U.S. Warren Commission Report, U.S. Warren Commission Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. Ramsey Panel Report, U.S. Ramsey Panel Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. Hart-Schweiker Intelligence Activities Committee Report, U.S. Hart-Schweiker Intelligence Activities Committee Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. Church Committee on U.S. Intelligence Agencies and Assassinations Report U.S. Church Committee on U.S. Intelligence Agencies and Assassinations Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations Report, U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. Committee on Ballistic Acoustics Report, U.S. Assassination Records and Review Board Report, U.S. Assassination Records and Review Board Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies.
As of 2004, I have also spoken directly with Dealey Plaza witnesses and before-and-after assassination-related-events witnesses, still living or now dead, detailed in a personal database of over 4200+ persons.
The vast majority of persons (including historians, and, supposed, historians) who make too-broad, too-generalized comments may not have actually read these entire complete reports, nor actually read the entire supporting volumes, nor actually read publicly available investigative backround files and individual documents (1000's of pages of which are still classified against public availability), nor actually have spoken directly with assassination witnesses nor events observed witnesses. I have 29+ years experience of direct involvement as an investigator for, and research into, the micro-details of the assassination of President Kennedy for anyone who wants to, objectively, understand, and decide for him or herself the details, and truth, of what transpired on November 22, 1963.
When my free time allows, I will be updating with specific primary references of important, often overlooked details, from my 29+ year database.
JFKtruth 14:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
TO accord with NPOV policy, this article should be at single bullet theory, not [[magic bullet theory]]. B 18:00, Dec 8, 2003 (UTC)
My latest edits to NPOV the article have made it sufficiently neutral to remove the NPOV warning at the beginning of the article. I've replaced that warning with the controversy message. — B| Talk 20:14, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
The current article as it stands does an outstanding job detailing investigated backround information documented by the WC and the HSCA, that any/all individuals are free to research for themself. (as a majority of persons who have actually read the investigatory backround information can discover, some of the important backround investigatory information was hidden when the WC (via Lyndon Johnson's order) and HSCA tried to seal/hide the records until 2039)
I disagree that the article is controversial.
It is the WC and HSCA, theorized, "single bullet theory" itself that IS controversial because the WC and HSCA documented investigatory backround facts, much to the chagrin of the WC and HSCA apologists, do not even support what the WC and HSCA printed in their final report.
The Wikipedia "single bullet theory" article itself is not controversial because it does provide and documents those investigatory backround facts. Some are trying to, imho, mistakenly (accidentally or deliberately?) blend 2 separate and distinct issues.
Of important note is that the WC final report itself could not even come to a WC agreement as to exactly when the, theorized, so-called "single bullet theory" occured. Additionally, The HSCA final report did not even agree with any of the WC theorized time points on when the, theorized, "single bullet theory" even occurred during the assassination. (the HSCA claimed the, theorized, "single bullet theory" occured at Z-190, --even though President Kennedy was hidden by the large live-oak tree from the, supposed, WC "snipers lair"-- but the WC was so nebulous about it that it, instead, gave the sbt a time frame of seconds during which the WC theorized it occured because before even theorizing about the sbt --which the WC did not theorize the sbt until the wounding of James Tague became more public knowledge 6 months after the assassination-- the WC at its Nov'63 outset --guided by Hoover and the FBI, the WC's main investigatory information supplier-- narrow-mindedly, was constrained to a time frame because it started its theory from the premise that there was only one assassin=talk about biased, pre-emptive, circular "logic"!)
As most persons who have read it have learned, the HSCA final report concluded, "that there was a probable conspiracy in the assassination of President Kennedy."
Much to the chagrin of a minority, the "single bullet," as a majority have learned for themself, really is the "magic bullet" that has been kept out of public view by the U.S. National Archives for going on 41 years. -152.163.253.9 11:41, June 15, 2004 (UTC)
Despite 152.163.253.9's assertion, the external link to [4] is NOT a link to "modeling" evidence, nor does the website purport to be so. It is merely an interpretation of the meaning of various pictures and diagrams...which are not models. Modeling is a unique method often requiring technical expertise to create the model. — B| Talk 16:59, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is informative, relevant and NPOV to note who refers to this theory as the "magic bullet theory", namely, skeptics and conspiracy theorists. Censoring this material is inappropriate. — B| Talk 17:02, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I’ve replaced the picture of dubious provenance and a strongly POV caption with two views of the bullet from the National Archives, and thus public domain. Gamaliel 02:44, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Documented Information on CE399 and its Provenance 205.188.116.199 16:18, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hello. I am working on this topic in the french wikipedia. Somebody created recently there a "magic bullet" page that is pure conspiration theory (Garrison type). Preparing to edit this page, I decided to create some illustrations, as I was not sure about the licence of the various picture you can find on the web. So I have created 2 graphics that I uploaded to commons. You can find them there, I let you with the decision whether or not they are appropriate to use in this topic. Alex lbh 6 July 2005 21:02 (UTC)
"One Parkland Hospital doctor stated at least three times on the day of the assassination that the wound on the front of the President's throat was an "entry" point, who, according to critics, later changed his mind that it was an "exit" wound after being harried and harassed by FBI agents a documented several times in the weeks following the assassination."
This is a bit of a mess. I've cleaned it up to read:
"One Parkland Hospital doctor stated at least three times on the day of the assassination that the wound on the front of the President's throat was an "entry" point, but then, according to critics, later changed his mind to claim that it was an "exit" wound after being harried and harassed by FBI agents, as documented several times in the weeks following the assassination."
However, I'm not at all sure that this is what was intended.... were the doctor's claims of harrassment documented several times in the weeks following the assassination (it seems unlikely that he'd become so vocal about this if he'd been so successfully intimidated as to "change his mind" about a key piece of evidence)? Or was it his original claim (that the wound was an "entry" point) that was documented several times?
Please review, clarify and cite sources. TheMadBaron 00:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
An episode on the Discovery Channel of its series Unsolved History recreated the angles, ammunition, trajectory, etc. of the Oswald shot and made a case that it is, at least, plausible that a single bullet caused the wounds described in the autopsy records--should any mention be made of this in the article? I don't know how we treat television evidence (although what I saw seemed very well documented and carefully done), and certainly it doesn't lay the matter to rest (because a single bullet could have done this doesn't mean it did), but I thought it might be a valid inclusion. Any thoughts? Jwrosenzweig 06:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey dude, the Discovery Myth Busters replicated the the assassination shot with two manequin made of ballistic gelatin and bones, a car of the same make and model, the Italian rifle, the same distance, direction and angle of the shot. The result was a nearly identical senario--one bullet, multiple wounds (one short of the historic number) and confused a forensics expert, to boot.
-Chin, Cheng-chuan
I thought that the game was intended to prove a three-bullet theory. The assassination summary lists accuracy of three shots, not one.
RPJ has stuck in the following nonsense: "President Kennedy's Death Certificate places the bullet wound to Kennedy's back at the third thoracic vertebra. [5]" If you click on the link to see the death certificate you see it mentions a lumbar SCAR and knee SCAR (the lumbar area is in the lower back-- this is JFK's old back surgery scar) and says NOTHING about the location of the neck wound. I am left to the conclusion that RPJ cited this and didn't even bother to read it. Take all the stuff OUT, RPJ.
RPJ 19:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Answer
By re-reading the entire discussion above, I see that sbharris is the major proponent that the back wound was at C6. This simply isn't true. As demonstrated in the HSCA drawing on Wiki's page, the HSCA doctors determined that the bullet traveled in an upwards direction within the body on its way to the throat exit, when the body was in the anatomic position, and that the only way for a bullet on this trajectory to have come from the sniper's nest was for Kennedy to have been leaning forward when struck. A quick look at any anatomy book will show you that the throat wound was at the T1 level. Now how can a bullet travel from the C6 level (C=cervical, neck) to the T1 level (T=thoracic, chest) in an upwards fashion? It can't.
When shown the autopsy photos in 1996, Kennedy autopsist Dr. J. Thornton Boswell testified under oath that the back wound appeared to be at the T2 level. This was even lower than T1. One can read his testimony, here: http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/Boswell_2-26-96/html/Boswell_0079a.htm This meant that there was no group of doctors, past or present, holding that the back wound was any higher than T1. The statement that the autopsy photos and x-rays show the wound to be at C6 is unsupportable and should be removed, replaced by the fact that the HSCA panel determined the wound to be at T1 and said the bullet traveled upwards within the body. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ```` 76.91.34.82 ( talk) 19:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
SbHarris, not one of the HSCA's "experts" said the bullet entered at the C6 level. It appears you're working backwards. You seem to think that because, in your opinion, the single bullet theory works, the bullet MUST have entered at a place where it would work, and never mind that the "experts" agreed that the bullet entered at a place where it probably wouldn't work. My research, available in chapters 11 and 12 at patspeer dotcom, shows why it probably doesn't work even at C6. It's called a spine. Any bullet entering just right of the spine and exiting from the middle of the throat would have to pass through the spine or its transverse processes. CE 399, on the other hand, lacked any damage to its nose, and almost certainly did not strike the spine or its processes. Your assertion that damage to C6 indicates the bullet entered at that level runs counter to opinions of the HSCA FPP and their radiologists. They, in fact, were much more concerned with the damage to T1 and C7, as demonstrated here; http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0054b.htm In his testimony before congress, in fact, Dr. Baden, the HSCA FPP spokesman only mentioned one fracture, at T1, as demonstrated here: http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0102a.htm Patspeer ( talk) 00:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The possible angles through the neck are compared at [11]. It's possible for the bullet to exit at a higher vertebral level than it entered, if JFK is leaning forward and slouched, as he was to rest his arm on the door.
Next, it not me who's working backwards to put a through-and-through wound though JFK neck base, from back to front. As the HSCA makes clear, the apex of the right lung is bruised, without the pleura underneath it penetrated, and the shortest explanation for THAT is that a missile went over the top of the lung, buising it with a shock as it passed. That severely limits how low the path can be, but SOMETHING damaged the top of that lung, and it wasn't two bullets each entering into the body only a tiny way. Those who want TWO separate wounnds (one in the throat, one in the back) have to argue that they aren't connected, even though the lung between (and underneath) is bruised. And again, there's a problem that a bullet into the throat disappears before it gets to the back, and a second bullet into the back disappears before it gets to the throat. That's a little hard to believe, considering that there's work to be done and explained, between these points! Connect the dots, as the committee did! [12].
Finally, there have been many tests with the FMJ 6.5 mm bullet from the 6.5 x 55 cartridge fired by the MC weapon. It's a very tough bullet, capable of being stopped by solid wood without any deformation. It's been tried against very thin bits of bone like a transverse spinal process, and that simply isn't enough. This is not the same as hitting the major part of the spinal bodies. It's even possible that delicate things like processes were fractured by the bullet blast cavity, without being physically hit by the bullet at all, which may have passed between C7 and T1 (if I'm wrong about that round defect in C7 being a literal hole). Look, I can live with a wound as low as the top of T1, as this still does the whole job seen on autopsy, causing the apical lung damage without pleural penetration. All that is required is that the bullet pass over the top of the pleural cavity, and if it goes over the top of the first rib (which articulates with T1, of course), that does the job and damage seen. (Not to mention lines up perfectly for a hit in Connally's side). Whether the bullet hit JFK in the "neck" or the "back" is a gray area, as of course T1 defines the beginning of the back, and C7 defines the end of the base of the neck. We are right on the dividing line, and I don't think it makes a technical difference. Again, all that is needed is to go over the top of the first rib and over the top of the lung. I think among autopsy docs and M.D. reviewers of autopsy evidence, ONLY Boswell puts the wound so low as to make this impossible. S B H arris 09:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The bullet hit Kennedy's back at the third thoracic vertebra just as Dr. Burkely said in the Death Certificate. Look at the autopsy diagram, [13] Kennedy's shirt [14] and Kennedy's jacket. [15].
RPJ 19:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
We don't know what the mass of the fragments in Connally is/was.
Inclusion of Burkely's death certificate is fair game (I only objected when I couldn't see page 2). Removal of Bethesda autopsy findings, just, because you don't agree with them, is not. I have included them without attempting to interpret them in the article itself, and you must do the same with your own primary source findings. Please carefully read WP:NOR and WP:NPOV.
Ultimately, WP needs a "JFK Autopsy" article, gory photos and all, where people can debate all this. Sbharris 21:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I've included more Bethesda autopsy report data from the Warren report. It concludes passage though the neck with bruising of top of right lung, but no penetration into the thorax. That's not consistent with L3, but I let the reader draw his own conclusion. The Bethesda docs thought the bullet went through his neck, and they're the best ones to judge, since they had several hours of disecting and measuring to reach their conclusion.
I've deleted the reference to the death certificate in the heading. If it's death certificate vs autopsy findings, you can read about that in the body of the article. Sbharris 01:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Both John and Nellie Connally said that Connally was not hit until he turned to his left, but Connally did not begin to make the turn to the left until Zapruder Frame 310. So when they came behind the sign, what happend to John Connally?
- Reply: The problem with the above is that Nellie observed JFK reacting to the first shot BEFORE her husband was hit in the chest. Although Gov. Connally may not have seen JFK react to the first shot, Nellie (and many others that I have quoted in the Criticism section) did.-- Saskcitation 06:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The WC also thought both men were hit by the second shot, and the first one (around 210) missed everybody in the car (probably it hit a branch, the street, and frags hit an onlooker near the underpass).
- Reply: This is not quite correct. The WC was unsure which shot missed. There is a whole section entitled "The Shot that Missed". The WC was thought to favour a first shot SBT but in the end were not certain that the SBT was correct at all. Posner believes that the first shot missed (also preferred by the HSCA). No one has been able to explain how one of the shots could have been so wild to have missed the entire car (especially when it was so close on the first shot). At that distance, the car was a huge target that virtually anyone could hit without difficulty. See the evidence of Ronald Simmons, WC 3 H 447-448. Three FBI shooters using Oswald’s rifle fired seven sets of three shots as quickly as possible while aiming at three targets spaced at distances comparable to those from the sixth floor Texas School Book Depository window to the President’s limousine. All 21 shots hit within nine inches of the centre of the respective targets.
As to the evidence of a missed first shot striking something, the WC suggested that the shot or fragment which struck the curb near James Tague was from the second or third shot. Tague was not sure if he was hit on the second or third shot but believed it was the second: Tague: WC 7 H 555 [18]. -- Saskcitation 06:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, if you look at the Costella Z film or any other stabalized version, and switch back and forth between frames 223 and 224, you can basically SEE Connally hit. His lapel flips up hiding the right side of his white collar, and he blurs out. That can't be anything other than a bullet through the chest. The lapel is down on 223, and back down by 225. As you watch the film in real time, at that moment, after emerging from the sign, Connally almost jumps and does a reflexive arm jerk with BOTH arms, VERY fast. It looks exactly what happens when you sneak up behind somebody and pop a baloon or hit them between the shoulders. Clearly, that's a reaction to something. Could be noise or a hit. I think the easiest interpretation is a hit. Even though Connally didn't feel the pain and blow for another third of a second, and contained to turn to look at the president, still reacting to the noise of shot #1, when he got hit by the pain and registered that he also was hit. S B H arris 19:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.105.35.109 ( talk) 14:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC). Connally says when he was hit And the bullet did not passed by his lapel if you watch his jacket http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r64/jfk90/Connallys_Jacket.jpg
KING: You had a disagreement over the -- where the shots went or -- Connally thought he was shot with the same bullet that hit Kennedy, right? CONNALLY: No, but everybody else thought he was. And they couldn't find... KING: The third bullet. CONNALLY: The third bullet. And, see, just think about it. Six seconds a shot. John turns, can't see anything. He turns over here, he can't see anything. He starts back and there's another shot. That bullet couldn't have just hung in the air. KING: Couldn't have gone through both? CONNALLY: No, it just couldn't have.
An interesting and overlooked criticism relates to the shot pattern observed by the vast majority of witnesses. As the Warren Commission observed, a substantial majority of witnesses recalled unequal spacing of the shots and the majority of these recalled that the last two shots were closer together. The WC did not really make much of this. But the evidence is more than merely significant. It is overwhelming. It is by this count [20]there were 44 witnesses who recalled the last two shots closer together, 6 who recalled it the other way around and 9 who recalled that the shots were about equally spaced. This consistency among witnesses is very difficult to explain as being driven by mistake. It means that this was the shot pattern. That shot pattern cannot be reconciled with the second shot SBT. Saskcitation 05:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Reply: No. This is not possible. If the first shot missed then the second shot hit JFK. Leaving aside the 17 witnesses by my count who said that JFK reacted to the first shot and none who said that he continued to wave and smile as we see him doing prior to z200, this is simply not possible if one is to have a shot pattern with the last two shots close together. Even if the second shot was as late as z224, you cannot get the last two shots closer together unless the first shot was before Zapruder started filming (224 to 313 is 5 seconds so you would need a first shot at least 6 seconds and probably 9 or 10 seconds before z224). Note: This shot pattern is actually the reason Max Holland has recently postulated such an early first shot 11 seconds before the head shot, (11 Seconds in Dallas: [21]). But this is obviously seriously flawed - there simply was not a shot that early according to the evidence. Saskcitation 06:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Reply: A shot at z133 (which is the first frame of Zapruder's film of the motorcade) would not have resulted in the last two shots being closer together. And it is difficult to understand how 4.9 seconds would be perceived by so many people to be "rapid succession" or "very close together" or "real close" or "almost as if one were the echo of the other" or "practically no time element between them".
In order for the shots at z224 and z313 to be noticeably closer together than the first two, the first shot would have to be several seconds before Zapruder started filming the motorcade. Since Zapruder started filming about 1 second after Tina Towner stopped filming, this means that the shot would have to have taken place before Tina Towner stopped her camera. But Tina Towner said that she stopped filming and started to get ready to leave when the first shot occurred (see Richard Trask's Pictures of the Pain Ch. 8, p 215-221; It contains references to an article in Teen Magazine in June, 1968 and also a copy of Life Magazine from Nov. 24, 1967. Trask quotes from the Teen and Life articles:
"Just after she stopped filming, Tina would later relate "now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in - the loudest crack of a rifle that I had ever heard")
In her personal account which is on display in the Sixth Floor Museum, Tina Turner estimated that the first shot was 4 to 6 seconds after she stopped filming.
Croft also puts the first shot after his third photo (later shown to have been snapped at z162). Croft's account is also mentioned in Trask's POTP Ch. 9, p.221-229. Trask interviewed Croft and also obtained documents on FBI files relating to Croft's photos. Croft's third photograph was taken before the first shot. In fact, Croft moved further down Elm wound his camera and may have twiddled the shutter speed or fstop before taking another photograph which, he said, he took just as the first shot sounded. He thought this photo #4 was taken simultaneously with the first shot. Unfortunately, the shot was un- or under-exposed and there was a blank negative. The point is that not only was #3 taken before the first shot, it was taken enough before that he was able to walk, wind the camera and take another.
Betzner, Willis, Woodward, TE Moore, the occupants of the VP and VP security cars and many others put the first shot well after the beginning of the zfilm.
So if the shot pattern was 1.....2..3, the second shot was well after frame 224. Saskcitation 05:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
A lot of material has been added by anon posters. Since some of it says stuff which is NOT true (ie, that Zapruder thought people had been hit by this or that shot-- he says himself he couldn't tell if there were 2 or 3 shots), I'm going to remove it unless you source it.
And as I was shooting, as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn, it was about a half-way down there, I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two, and I saw his head practically open up, all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.
So Zapruder was quite clear in his recollection that JFK slumped to his side after the first shot. The original WFAA-TV (ABC) interview is available on the MPI Teleproductions DVD Image of an Assassination.
-- Saskcitation 23:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
As for Ms. Connally and all three shots hitting the car, that's just wrong. The most famous Altgens photo, taken about Z-230 and probably in unconscious reaction to the sound of the second shot, shows JFK with hands to throat and his wife assisting him. And yet in that very frame, every single secret service agent on the running boards of the car behind is already looking upward and back, toward the TSBD. That's WAY too fast a reaction to a first shot. They had to be primed for that action by previous sound from behind (a shot before). And (by the testimony of many of them) they were, for they looked back and up immediately after seeing JFK hit by shot #2. But that first shot at Z-160 had no effect that anybody ever saw. Some people thought the second shot was the first, but they simply missed the first one. Many people testified to a first shot that was without effect. Zapruder jumps early in the film for no reason, and a little girl stops and looks around, all about Z-160. You can see the effects of the sound, but no effect on the limo. S B H arris 17:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
"As for Ms. Connally and all three shots hitting the car, that's just wrong. The most famous Altgens photo, taken about Z-230 and probably in unconscious reaction to the sound of the second shot, shows JFK with hands to throat and his wife assisting him. And yet in that very frame, every single secret service agent on the running boards of the car behind is already looking upward and back, toward the TSBD. That's WAY too fast a reaction to a first shot. "
Altgens photo was taken at frame z255-56. You can match Jacquie's hands to the zfilm and verify this for yourself. You are ignoring the fact that Altgens said that his photo was taken after the first shot but before any other shot. Although he was not sure whether there was one or two shots afterward, he was sure there had only been one to the point he took that photo. If the first shot was at z202, which is what Phil Willis said (it was at the same instant he took his photo which is exactly at z202) this gives the agents almost 3 seconds to react the way they appear in the Altgens photo.
There is a great deal of evidence that all three shots hit the occupants of the car: Many witnesses said the first shot hit JFK; the Connallys, corroborated by others such as David Powers, Gayle Newman, and driver William Greer, said that the second shot hit the Governor in the back; the Zapruder film shows the third bullet striking JFK. That is three shots, three hits. One can disagree with the evidence and suggest that it was not correct, but one cannot say that there was no evidence.
The Warren Commission obviously believed that one shot must have missed, but it could not say whether the first, second or third shot missed. It is a logical corollary to the single bullet theory, but there is no independent evidence of a missed shot. -- Saskcitation Jan. 21, 14:00 CST
I am not sure how you can see what JFK is doing while behind the sign. His actions are quite consistent with being hit at z202. At z207 he appears to begin reacting - at least according to the HSCA panel who looked at it. I can't tell. He may not have felt much impact and his reaction may have taken a second or so to begin - we may be seeing the beginning of it at when he emerges. That is not much of a delayed reaction - 1.25 seconds at the most and possibly as early as z207.
- Reply. Reacting sure. But Connally said he reacted to the first shot. He recognized it as a rifle shot and turned back to see JFK. He said he just wasn't hit by it im the back. He said Oh, no, no, no before he was hit. He appears to be saying oh, no, no, no. around z235-40. -- Saskcitation 04:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
No, I can't see JFK from Z-215 to 226, but based on what he's BEGINING to do at 226, almost in ballet time with Connally's beginning bilateral arm flex-flinch, I think they are both hit there at the same time. We can disagree on that till doomsday, but we certainly know that Connally didn't recall correctly doing what he said he did do, unless the Z film is a fake. So we can't trust the memories of a guy who's just taken a bullet through the chest.
As for your witnesses, you ought to call them earwitnesses, but it's clear JFK is shot while behind the sign, and there's a LONG time between then and 313. So the Earwitnesses are wrong about the short interval there, unless there's there an extra shot which has no effect on anybody. If you want to shoot JFK through the neck at 206, you need to do it with a bullet that then just disappears. If the earwitnesses say that happened, I'm just going to assume they didn't "hear" the second shot until they saw the president react to it, and that was the point they realized it WAS a shot, and committed that as fact to memory. WHich is a tricky thing. Don't place too much evidence on testimony. You may have written a whole paper on this, but that only makes you more partisan. S B H arris 01:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The bottom line is that we cannot say with any confidence what is and what is not a reasonable reaction to these events. We have to look at the evidence and stay away from "expert" opinions. The "science" of interpreting reactions is fraught with uncertainty. The evidence of many witnesses converges on a first shot at z200 or so. This is a complicated analysis but essentially it involves looking at the testimony of witnesses along Elm St. near the President and relating their actual location to their descriptions of where the President was in relation to where they were standing when they heard the first shot.
Another important body of consistent evidence is ths shot pattern: 44 witnesses recalled confidently the shot pattern of: shot, long pause, shot, short pause shot. 6 witnesses thought it was the other way around, but none were confident. 10 thought the shots were about equally spaced, but none were confident. If you would like to read my paper on the shot pattern, you can download it at http://www.dufourlaw.com/jfk/shot_pattern_evidence.pdf The 1......2...3 shot pattern is wholly inconsistent with a second shot SBT. The only possibility for the SBT with this shot pattern is a first shot SBT. -- Saskcitation, Jan 21, 2007, 14:20 CST.
- Reply. How about a cite? Courts rely on witness evidence every day. Our laws make it very difficult to ignore corroborated witness evidence. I happen to be a Canadian trial lawyer with 25 years of trial and appellate experience, so I would challenge you on any blanket statement that in law witnesses are presumptively not reliable.
Of course, witnesses can be reliable or unreliable. Knowing how to tell the difference is important. Courts and investigators depend on witness testimony and generally do not have difficulty distinguishing between recollections that are reliable and those that are not. Psychologists have tested and studied witness perception, memory and recall under a variety of conditions. While these studies confirm that individual witnesses are fallible, they show that honest witness recollection is, more often than not, accurate - with the greatest accuracy on the most salient details. Courts find it safe to rely on witness testimony where the testimony is consistent with other evidence and particularly if there is corroboration on material details.
See: Elizabeth Loftus on Witness reliability. Loftus, Eliz. F., Eyewitness Testimony, (Cambridge, MA: 1979), Harvard University Press at p. 25 ff. She lists several studies showing that witnesses are quite reliable on salient details. Not 100%, but even with suggestions being made to them, witnesses are right 60% of the time and when not interfered with over 90%. So when you get several witnesses saying the same thing either they made the same mistake for a common reason or actually observed the same thing.
- Reply. I think you are overstating Loftus' point. She does not say that witnesses tend to get things wrong more often than not. She says witness evidence needs corroboration in order to support a reliable conviction. This is a quote from the article you cited:
"LOFTUS: Often times, eyewitness testimony is accurate and in many cases has proven to be accurate, because you have circumstantial evidence. You know the victim's belongings are found in the defendant's home. The defendant's fingerprints are found in the victim's bedroom. You have corroborating evidence that helps to confirm that the eyewitness testimony is accurate. So it's no wonder that we see many situations where eyewitness testimony is accurate, we see it's accurate, we know it's accurate, it's just that fraction of the time where it's uncorroborated, unsubstantiated, that's all we have and it could be mistaken especially if things weren't done right."
Now with respect to the shot pattern or number of shots, we are talking not about one witness. We are talking dozens of witnesses that are corroborated by other evidence. For example, the shot pattern is corroborated by the zfilm: witnesses who said that JBC was hit just before he fell back (Greer, Powers, Newman). He falls back at z280 or so, which fits the 1....2..3 pattern. Loftus does not suggest that such large numbers of consistent corroborated witnesses are unreliable. -- Saskcitation 08:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The odds of 10 independent witnesses being all wrong on fact recollection in the same way become vanishingly small. This is quite different than eye-witness identification evidence. Such evidence requires extreme caution and rigourous techniques to obtain properly and is not reliable unless corroborated. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Again, nonsense. Example: 9/11. A huge fraction of people interviewed later said they clearly remember where they were on 9/11 and that on that day they saw footage on TV of the first plane hitting the first tower, before the second one hit. They were all wrong. No such footage was available that day to the public, and nobody saw it. Not just thousands, but millions of people got it wrong. Just one example for you. S B H arris 07:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Classroom demos with video cameras of faked unexpected events (with later essays and then comparisons) are a must in every college Psych class 101. How is it that you missed all that?
Because you must go though all that scientific crap to become a medical or social psychology expert, and you just didn't bother? What?
:Reply. A cite would help. If it is scientific presumably you can give us a cite. Again, read Loftus. Courts accept witness evidence all the time and miscarriages of justice are rare. DNA is unequivocal evidence. You can't really compare the zfilm with DNA. It does not show Connally being hit. That is just a matter of interpretation. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, if you think the single bullet Wiki is going to get skewed this badly by a paper from one guy (namely you) when a thousand people have worked for years untangling this mystery, think again. We have room for major conclusions from major investigations-- that's about it. I can name you three computer graffic investigations that see Connally hit at 224.
- Reply. Cite? Not Dale Myers. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, Dale Myers is one. And here's your cite. [25] and actually the better one from Myer's website: go through all sections. [26] S B H arris 07:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reply. Myers just does an animation of the shots and trajectory. He never says he can see JBC hit at z224. Never. He is positing his theory. -- Saskcitation 08:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- He says the computer animation shows it THERE. How much clearer does he need to be? [27]
I can SEE that he is.
Where is the blood? How is it that David Powers, Gayle Newman, Wm. Greer, all said Connally fell back immediately on the second shot? All I see is a rather robust looking Governor trying to turn back to see JFK for three seconds from z230-270 - just as he said he did after the first shot and before he was hit. Altgens said his z255 photo was taken after the first shot and before the second. Nellie Connally said she never turned to look back into the rear seat after her husband was hit on the second shot. She is looking back as late as z260. So, while you may believe that you SEE him being hit, others who are just as honest and objective disagree. A public document about the SBT must point out all the evidence, for and against. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest the public is entitled to assess the SBT against the evidence, such as the fact that 44 witnesses distinctly recalled a 1......2..3 shot pattern (ie. it is a fact that they gave statements recalling the pattern). Of course, that pattern is inconsistent with a second shot as early as z224. People interested in finding the truth will take all evidence seriously. I think it is important in putting out a public objective statement that you state the evidence for and against the theory and let people use that information to form their own conclusions. It is not up to us to say what occurred: merely to objectively provide the evidence. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I can SEE JFK waving at Z-204 with one hand, not clenching at his throat. GO back and watch the film again. And again. And again. Watch it till you get it. S B H arris 01:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reply. A human being cannot physically begin to react to anything in less than about 100 ms. and usually require 250 ms. to actually do something (like press a brake pedal). In the case of JFK, no nerves were hit and no bone (except perhaps a small bone protruding from a cervical vertebra). It may be that he did not feel it but only noticed the loss of function (breathing problem). If he was hit at z202 as Phil Willis stated (he said his z202 photo was taken at the instant of the first shot. Hugh Betzner said his photo at z186 was taken just before the first shot (as he was quickly winding his camera to take another). 2 frames is about 100 ms.
You seem rather defensive about your interpretation of the zfilm. Readers may wish to see what the witnesses say they saw before trying to interpret the film. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
JFK Lancer It says that Connally said in a Life magazine interview that he tought he was hit at Z frame 234.
Reply:That is true - Life, November 25, 1966. He also said it to the Warren Commission in 1964. No one asked him where he turns to his right and looks behind him to see the President. I don't see any such turn before z234 and no one else has been able to see it. Are we supposed to think it happened behind the sign in 1 second? Connally insisted that it was the second shot that hit him and that he made a turn right around to his right and tried to see the president after the first shot and before the second. So his opinion that he looked like he was hit at z234 is not consistent with the events that he recalled.-- Saskcitation 15:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
As for Mrs. Connally, she says says her husband was hit AFTER she saw JFK with hands to throat, but as noted, all that really means is that she noticed he was hit after that. After the throat shot the Z film shows her look at JFK, then up front to the secret service, THEN finally at her husband, who is starting to react. Again she may have collapsed two memories into one.
I mentioned the first-plane-into-the-twin-towers false-memories for a reason, and you missed it. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing Loftus says happens. People who saw that footage later, misremembered and thought they'd seen it on 9/11, when they really only saw plane #2 that day. That is, people who saw the second plane footage on 9/11 later collapsed that memory with footage of plane #1, available only later. It happens. It happened on 9/11 to a LOT more than 44 people. Why don't you get the point? If we had no actual record that plane strike #1 footage had not been broadcast on 9/11, and were going by witness testimony alone, we'd have a HUGE testimonial base that it had been broadcast on that day. But IN FACT it wasn't, end of discussion. No matter how many people THOUGHT they saw it. Okay? S B H arris 20:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Saskcitation 05:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC) As to a shot as early as z160, not only do the 44 shot pattern witnesses exclude that as a possibility, so do about 16 "first shot hit" witnesses" (see above under "Criticism" section); so do a similar number of witnesses who place the first shot at about z200-220: ie the 5 occupants of the VP follow-up car who said their car was just turning the corner (parallel to the TBSD) at the time of the first shot (it is not there at z192); the occupants of the VP car who said they had completed the turn and were going down Elm at the time of the first shot (it is still turning at z175); Hugh Betzner who said he took his z186 photo before the first shot; or Phil Willis who said he took his z202 photo at the instant of the first shot, or Linda Willis who said that the limousine was between her and the Stemmons sign at the time of the first shot (z199-204); Or T. Moore who said that the President was about opposite the Thornton Freeway sign (located at z210); or Wm. Greer driving the limousine who said the limo was just about past the west corner of the TBSD when the first shot sounded. No one said there was a shot any where near z160. And no one said JFK did not react to it.
This article is far too long and detailed, while at the same lacks in-line citations for many of its claims. It is biased throughout, nowhere providing a clear, concise and objective description. For example, the introduction contains a sarcastic criticism of the theory. The remarkable length of this talk page and the theory-wars within it is indicative of authors who misunderstand the basic function of an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.197.84 ( talk) 06:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree with 76. I mean, buried in the long-winded argument I am in the midst of above with Sask is my point that, uh, the reasons why he Warren Commission saw fit to come up with the theory in the first place are lacking, something which if fixed would make this article somewhat more coherent. AS for the sneering criticism of the theory, I am shocked - shocked! - that the various sneering writers haven't documented each layer of skin the bullet pierced - "...the bullet then pierced the epidermis layer of skin, followed by the dermis layer, and finally the hypodermis layer before proceeding to penetrate the muscle..." .
When the reasons the Warren Commission came up with the theory are made clear, and the various corroborative pieces of evidence were arrived at, one can see this was not simply some desperate attempt to "explain away" something here but the only solution to some evidentiary problems. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
A cursory look at these sections reveal the same problem I note above with the "missed shot" section. While I think a lot of work needs to be done on stuff here which will presumably be retained if there is editing to be done on the page - such as supplying some citations for "the critics" of various aspects of the SBT (and I am well aware of critiques of many of these aspects out there) - it seems that the sections I mention here in the head are NOT critiques arising from various published sources, those who fault the SBT in whatever form. Correct me if I am wrong on this, anyone out there who knows more about those aspects than me, but I am unaware of these arguments being made in published sources. So, if we don't have critics citing a) shot pattern or b) right to left trajectory as reasons for faulting the SBT, then those sections must be omitted. As far as I can tell, there is simply a lot of links to WC testimony, nothing linked to an author making the argument. At the very least, we need to know, when it says "A further criticism..." in the first section, who is making that "further criticism," and when it says "...has also been criticized on the grounds that it does not fit the shot pattern recalled by most of the witnesses," who is making those criticisms. Canada Jack ( talk) 18:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
The SBT is NOT synonymous with the Lone Gunman theory. The SBT just explains how three shots could have been fired from one gun and caused all the wounds in the time span in which those wounds were thought to have occurred. Many consider it to be an essential part of the Lone Gunman theory. However, this was not the view of 3 of the 7 Warren Commission members: Rep. Richard Russell, Sen. John Cooper, and Rep. Hale Boggs, nor was it the view of the Connallys. Saskcitation 22:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
sorry, i think Alvarez' theory was separate. I got confused by JFK's "nuclear physicists" line. -- Kwantus 16:16, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
re slight wrangle over "conspiracy theory" -- what i'm trying to get at, without actually saying it, is that the WC clearly set out with the idee fixe that LHO acted alone, and then filtered and wrought the facts to fit. They rejected a conspiracy theory (in the literal sense) at all costs, willing to kite this absurd MBT rather than admit the obvious, that multiple persons were involved -- Kwantus 17:18, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I recall reading that there's another problem with the 3-bullet theory: one of the shells found was damaged in such a way it could not have been the source of a bullet. Thus there's actually only two bullets available for the official nonconspiracy theory. I must try to refind that -- Kwantus 17:27, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
might need a little correcting: i think the bullet is supposed to have hit JFK in the back and turned upward, exited at the throat and turning downward -- ie more strange zigzagging. There's also the July 1997 kafuffle about Gerry Ford fudging something to make the path through JFK less crazy. [2]
Looks good, Gerd. What I started with was pretty editorial. Looks like you've added (or re-added) in facts but not skewed into opinion, which was th original problem - thanks. Skybunny 22:11, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
"one [shot] hit the curb [injuring] Tague" I may have miswritten that. I think it was a full bullet that hit the curb, but the WC--which is the context--may have tried to account for that as a fragment of the head shot. [3]
See the FBI report on the analysis of the curb fragment, August 12, 1964: Shaneyfelt Exhibit 27, WC 21 H 475. There was no copper in the curb sample that was analysed, which one would expect if the jacketed bullet had struck the curb. Also, the curb was a scratch, not a gouge. The FBI concludes that the mark on the curb was not caused by “the first impact of a high velocity rifle bullet”. Saskcitation 19:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I just added a note about another meaning for "Magic bullet:" Paul Ehrlich's characterization of a goal which he believed was achieved with Salvarsan. It doesn't look right in the table of contents, though. If this article is to be kept under the heading "Magic bullet theory" perhaps a disambiguation page is needed. I hadn't actually checked before writing the note, but I see that the existing entries for Paul Ehrlich, Salvarsan, and arsphenamine all make specific use of the phrase "magic bullet" buttressing my assertion that the phrase is truly connected with Ehrlich and Salvarsan. Dpbsmith 18:11, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Anyone who would, entirely for free, and objectively like to have supplied for themself ANY specific reference you need for any detail, or, anyone who has never read the entire reports, never read the followup evidentiary and testimonies volumes, or never read for yourself the back round investigative files and individual documents performed by the following partial list of investigative agencies/departments/bodies, please, feel free, to contact me privately, anytime, with your specific reference request or constructive, detailed, referenced comments:
Parkland Hospital Doctors Reports, U.S. Navy Bethesda Hospital Autopsists Reports, Dallas Police Department Reports, Dallas County Surveyors Report, U.S. Defense Investigative Service Reports, U.S. Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms Reports, U.S. Navy Investigative Service Reports, U.S. Marine Corps Investigative Reports, U.S. State Department Reports, U.S. F.B.I. Report, U.S. Secret Service Report, U.S. National Security Agency Report, Texas Attorney General Report, Texas Rangers Investigative Reports, U.S. Warren Commission Report, U.S. Warren Commission Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. Ramsey Panel Report, U.S. Ramsey Panel Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. Hart-Schweiker Intelligence Activities Committee Report, U.S. Hart-Schweiker Intelligence Activities Committee Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. Church Committee on U.S. Intelligence Agencies and Assassinations Report U.S. Church Committee on U.S. Intelligence Agencies and Assassinations Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations Report, U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies, U.S. Committee on Ballistic Acoustics Report, U.S. Assassination Records and Review Board Report, U.S. Assassination Records and Review Board Volumes of Evidence and Testimonies.
As of 2004, I have also spoken directly with Dealey Plaza witnesses and before-and-after assassination-related-events witnesses, still living or now dead, detailed in a personal database of over 4200+ persons.
The vast majority of persons (including historians, and, supposed, historians) who make too-broad, too-generalized comments may not have actually read these entire complete reports, nor actually read the entire supporting volumes, nor actually read publicly available investigative backround files and individual documents (1000's of pages of which are still classified against public availability), nor actually have spoken directly with assassination witnesses nor events observed witnesses. I have 29+ years experience of direct involvement as an investigator for, and research into, the micro-details of the assassination of President Kennedy for anyone who wants to, objectively, understand, and decide for him or herself the details, and truth, of what transpired on November 22, 1963.
When my free time allows, I will be updating with specific primary references of important, often overlooked details, from my 29+ year database.
JFKtruth 14:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
TO accord with NPOV policy, this article should be at single bullet theory, not [[magic bullet theory]]. B 18:00, Dec 8, 2003 (UTC)
My latest edits to NPOV the article have made it sufficiently neutral to remove the NPOV warning at the beginning of the article. I've replaced that warning with the controversy message. — B| Talk 20:14, May 27, 2004 (UTC)
The current article as it stands does an outstanding job detailing investigated backround information documented by the WC and the HSCA, that any/all individuals are free to research for themself. (as a majority of persons who have actually read the investigatory backround information can discover, some of the important backround investigatory information was hidden when the WC (via Lyndon Johnson's order) and HSCA tried to seal/hide the records until 2039)
I disagree that the article is controversial.
It is the WC and HSCA, theorized, "single bullet theory" itself that IS controversial because the WC and HSCA documented investigatory backround facts, much to the chagrin of the WC and HSCA apologists, do not even support what the WC and HSCA printed in their final report.
The Wikipedia "single bullet theory" article itself is not controversial because it does provide and documents those investigatory backround facts. Some are trying to, imho, mistakenly (accidentally or deliberately?) blend 2 separate and distinct issues.
Of important note is that the WC final report itself could not even come to a WC agreement as to exactly when the, theorized, so-called "single bullet theory" occured. Additionally, The HSCA final report did not even agree with any of the WC theorized time points on when the, theorized, "single bullet theory" even occurred during the assassination. (the HSCA claimed the, theorized, "single bullet theory" occured at Z-190, --even though President Kennedy was hidden by the large live-oak tree from the, supposed, WC "snipers lair"-- but the WC was so nebulous about it that it, instead, gave the sbt a time frame of seconds during which the WC theorized it occured because before even theorizing about the sbt --which the WC did not theorize the sbt until the wounding of James Tague became more public knowledge 6 months after the assassination-- the WC at its Nov'63 outset --guided by Hoover and the FBI, the WC's main investigatory information supplier-- narrow-mindedly, was constrained to a time frame because it started its theory from the premise that there was only one assassin=talk about biased, pre-emptive, circular "logic"!)
As most persons who have read it have learned, the HSCA final report concluded, "that there was a probable conspiracy in the assassination of President Kennedy."
Much to the chagrin of a minority, the "single bullet," as a majority have learned for themself, really is the "magic bullet" that has been kept out of public view by the U.S. National Archives for going on 41 years. -152.163.253.9 11:41, June 15, 2004 (UTC)
Despite 152.163.253.9's assertion, the external link to [4] is NOT a link to "modeling" evidence, nor does the website purport to be so. It is merely an interpretation of the meaning of various pictures and diagrams...which are not models. Modeling is a unique method often requiring technical expertise to create the model. — B| Talk 16:59, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is informative, relevant and NPOV to note who refers to this theory as the "magic bullet theory", namely, skeptics and conspiracy theorists. Censoring this material is inappropriate. — B| Talk 17:02, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I’ve replaced the picture of dubious provenance and a strongly POV caption with two views of the bullet from the National Archives, and thus public domain. Gamaliel 02:44, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Documented Information on CE399 and its Provenance 205.188.116.199 16:18, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hello. I am working on this topic in the french wikipedia. Somebody created recently there a "magic bullet" page that is pure conspiration theory (Garrison type). Preparing to edit this page, I decided to create some illustrations, as I was not sure about the licence of the various picture you can find on the web. So I have created 2 graphics that I uploaded to commons. You can find them there, I let you with the decision whether or not they are appropriate to use in this topic. Alex lbh 6 July 2005 21:02 (UTC)
"One Parkland Hospital doctor stated at least three times on the day of the assassination that the wound on the front of the President's throat was an "entry" point, who, according to critics, later changed his mind that it was an "exit" wound after being harried and harassed by FBI agents a documented several times in the weeks following the assassination."
This is a bit of a mess. I've cleaned it up to read:
"One Parkland Hospital doctor stated at least three times on the day of the assassination that the wound on the front of the President's throat was an "entry" point, but then, according to critics, later changed his mind to claim that it was an "exit" wound after being harried and harassed by FBI agents, as documented several times in the weeks following the assassination."
However, I'm not at all sure that this is what was intended.... were the doctor's claims of harrassment documented several times in the weeks following the assassination (it seems unlikely that he'd become so vocal about this if he'd been so successfully intimidated as to "change his mind" about a key piece of evidence)? Or was it his original claim (that the wound was an "entry" point) that was documented several times?
Please review, clarify and cite sources. TheMadBaron 00:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
An episode on the Discovery Channel of its series Unsolved History recreated the angles, ammunition, trajectory, etc. of the Oswald shot and made a case that it is, at least, plausible that a single bullet caused the wounds described in the autopsy records--should any mention be made of this in the article? I don't know how we treat television evidence (although what I saw seemed very well documented and carefully done), and certainly it doesn't lay the matter to rest (because a single bullet could have done this doesn't mean it did), but I thought it might be a valid inclusion. Any thoughts? Jwrosenzweig 06:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey dude, the Discovery Myth Busters replicated the the assassination shot with two manequin made of ballistic gelatin and bones, a car of the same make and model, the Italian rifle, the same distance, direction and angle of the shot. The result was a nearly identical senario--one bullet, multiple wounds (one short of the historic number) and confused a forensics expert, to boot.
-Chin, Cheng-chuan
I thought that the game was intended to prove a three-bullet theory. The assassination summary lists accuracy of three shots, not one.
RPJ has stuck in the following nonsense: "President Kennedy's Death Certificate places the bullet wound to Kennedy's back at the third thoracic vertebra. [5]" If you click on the link to see the death certificate you see it mentions a lumbar SCAR and knee SCAR (the lumbar area is in the lower back-- this is JFK's old back surgery scar) and says NOTHING about the location of the neck wound. I am left to the conclusion that RPJ cited this and didn't even bother to read it. Take all the stuff OUT, RPJ.
RPJ 19:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Answer
By re-reading the entire discussion above, I see that sbharris is the major proponent that the back wound was at C6. This simply isn't true. As demonstrated in the HSCA drawing on Wiki's page, the HSCA doctors determined that the bullet traveled in an upwards direction within the body on its way to the throat exit, when the body was in the anatomic position, and that the only way for a bullet on this trajectory to have come from the sniper's nest was for Kennedy to have been leaning forward when struck. A quick look at any anatomy book will show you that the throat wound was at the T1 level. Now how can a bullet travel from the C6 level (C=cervical, neck) to the T1 level (T=thoracic, chest) in an upwards fashion? It can't.
When shown the autopsy photos in 1996, Kennedy autopsist Dr. J. Thornton Boswell testified under oath that the back wound appeared to be at the T2 level. This was even lower than T1. One can read his testimony, here: http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/Boswell_2-26-96/html/Boswell_0079a.htm This meant that there was no group of doctors, past or present, holding that the back wound was any higher than T1. The statement that the autopsy photos and x-rays show the wound to be at C6 is unsupportable and should be removed, replaced by the fact that the HSCA panel determined the wound to be at T1 and said the bullet traveled upwards within the body. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ```` 76.91.34.82 ( talk) 19:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
SbHarris, not one of the HSCA's "experts" said the bullet entered at the C6 level. It appears you're working backwards. You seem to think that because, in your opinion, the single bullet theory works, the bullet MUST have entered at a place where it would work, and never mind that the "experts" agreed that the bullet entered at a place where it probably wouldn't work. My research, available in chapters 11 and 12 at patspeer dotcom, shows why it probably doesn't work even at C6. It's called a spine. Any bullet entering just right of the spine and exiting from the middle of the throat would have to pass through the spine or its transverse processes. CE 399, on the other hand, lacked any damage to its nose, and almost certainly did not strike the spine or its processes. Your assertion that damage to C6 indicates the bullet entered at that level runs counter to opinions of the HSCA FPP and their radiologists. They, in fact, were much more concerned with the damage to T1 and C7, as demonstrated here; http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0054b.htm In his testimony before congress, in fact, Dr. Baden, the HSCA FPP spokesman only mentioned one fracture, at T1, as demonstrated here: http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0102a.htm Patspeer ( talk) 00:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The possible angles through the neck are compared at [11]. It's possible for the bullet to exit at a higher vertebral level than it entered, if JFK is leaning forward and slouched, as he was to rest his arm on the door.
Next, it not me who's working backwards to put a through-and-through wound though JFK neck base, from back to front. As the HSCA makes clear, the apex of the right lung is bruised, without the pleura underneath it penetrated, and the shortest explanation for THAT is that a missile went over the top of the lung, buising it with a shock as it passed. That severely limits how low the path can be, but SOMETHING damaged the top of that lung, and it wasn't two bullets each entering into the body only a tiny way. Those who want TWO separate wounnds (one in the throat, one in the back) have to argue that they aren't connected, even though the lung between (and underneath) is bruised. And again, there's a problem that a bullet into the throat disappears before it gets to the back, and a second bullet into the back disappears before it gets to the throat. That's a little hard to believe, considering that there's work to be done and explained, between these points! Connect the dots, as the committee did! [12].
Finally, there have been many tests with the FMJ 6.5 mm bullet from the 6.5 x 55 cartridge fired by the MC weapon. It's a very tough bullet, capable of being stopped by solid wood without any deformation. It's been tried against very thin bits of bone like a transverse spinal process, and that simply isn't enough. This is not the same as hitting the major part of the spinal bodies. It's even possible that delicate things like processes were fractured by the bullet blast cavity, without being physically hit by the bullet at all, which may have passed between C7 and T1 (if I'm wrong about that round defect in C7 being a literal hole). Look, I can live with a wound as low as the top of T1, as this still does the whole job seen on autopsy, causing the apical lung damage without pleural penetration. All that is required is that the bullet pass over the top of the pleural cavity, and if it goes over the top of the first rib (which articulates with T1, of course), that does the job and damage seen. (Not to mention lines up perfectly for a hit in Connally's side). Whether the bullet hit JFK in the "neck" or the "back" is a gray area, as of course T1 defines the beginning of the back, and C7 defines the end of the base of the neck. We are right on the dividing line, and I don't think it makes a technical difference. Again, all that is needed is to go over the top of the first rib and over the top of the lung. I think among autopsy docs and M.D. reviewers of autopsy evidence, ONLY Boswell puts the wound so low as to make this impossible. S B H arris 09:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The bullet hit Kennedy's back at the third thoracic vertebra just as Dr. Burkely said in the Death Certificate. Look at the autopsy diagram, [13] Kennedy's shirt [14] and Kennedy's jacket. [15].
RPJ 19:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
We don't know what the mass of the fragments in Connally is/was.
Inclusion of Burkely's death certificate is fair game (I only objected when I couldn't see page 2). Removal of Bethesda autopsy findings, just, because you don't agree with them, is not. I have included them without attempting to interpret them in the article itself, and you must do the same with your own primary source findings. Please carefully read WP:NOR and WP:NPOV.
Ultimately, WP needs a "JFK Autopsy" article, gory photos and all, where people can debate all this. Sbharris 21:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I've included more Bethesda autopsy report data from the Warren report. It concludes passage though the neck with bruising of top of right lung, but no penetration into the thorax. That's not consistent with L3, but I let the reader draw his own conclusion. The Bethesda docs thought the bullet went through his neck, and they're the best ones to judge, since they had several hours of disecting and measuring to reach their conclusion.
I've deleted the reference to the death certificate in the heading. If it's death certificate vs autopsy findings, you can read about that in the body of the article. Sbharris 01:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Both John and Nellie Connally said that Connally was not hit until he turned to his left, but Connally did not begin to make the turn to the left until Zapruder Frame 310. So when they came behind the sign, what happend to John Connally?
- Reply: The problem with the above is that Nellie observed JFK reacting to the first shot BEFORE her husband was hit in the chest. Although Gov. Connally may not have seen JFK react to the first shot, Nellie (and many others that I have quoted in the Criticism section) did.-- Saskcitation 06:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The WC also thought both men were hit by the second shot, and the first one (around 210) missed everybody in the car (probably it hit a branch, the street, and frags hit an onlooker near the underpass).
- Reply: This is not quite correct. The WC was unsure which shot missed. There is a whole section entitled "The Shot that Missed". The WC was thought to favour a first shot SBT but in the end were not certain that the SBT was correct at all. Posner believes that the first shot missed (also preferred by the HSCA). No one has been able to explain how one of the shots could have been so wild to have missed the entire car (especially when it was so close on the first shot). At that distance, the car was a huge target that virtually anyone could hit without difficulty. See the evidence of Ronald Simmons, WC 3 H 447-448. Three FBI shooters using Oswald’s rifle fired seven sets of three shots as quickly as possible while aiming at three targets spaced at distances comparable to those from the sixth floor Texas School Book Depository window to the President’s limousine. All 21 shots hit within nine inches of the centre of the respective targets.
As to the evidence of a missed first shot striking something, the WC suggested that the shot or fragment which struck the curb near James Tague was from the second or third shot. Tague was not sure if he was hit on the second or third shot but believed it was the second: Tague: WC 7 H 555 [18]. -- Saskcitation 06:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, if you look at the Costella Z film or any other stabalized version, and switch back and forth between frames 223 and 224, you can basically SEE Connally hit. His lapel flips up hiding the right side of his white collar, and he blurs out. That can't be anything other than a bullet through the chest. The lapel is down on 223, and back down by 225. As you watch the film in real time, at that moment, after emerging from the sign, Connally almost jumps and does a reflexive arm jerk with BOTH arms, VERY fast. It looks exactly what happens when you sneak up behind somebody and pop a baloon or hit them between the shoulders. Clearly, that's a reaction to something. Could be noise or a hit. I think the easiest interpretation is a hit. Even though Connally didn't feel the pain and blow for another third of a second, and contained to turn to look at the president, still reacting to the noise of shot #1, when he got hit by the pain and registered that he also was hit. S B H arris 19:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.105.35.109 ( talk) 14:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC). Connally says when he was hit And the bullet did not passed by his lapel if you watch his jacket http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r64/jfk90/Connallys_Jacket.jpg
KING: You had a disagreement over the -- where the shots went or -- Connally thought he was shot with the same bullet that hit Kennedy, right? CONNALLY: No, but everybody else thought he was. And they couldn't find... KING: The third bullet. CONNALLY: The third bullet. And, see, just think about it. Six seconds a shot. John turns, can't see anything. He turns over here, he can't see anything. He starts back and there's another shot. That bullet couldn't have just hung in the air. KING: Couldn't have gone through both? CONNALLY: No, it just couldn't have.
An interesting and overlooked criticism relates to the shot pattern observed by the vast majority of witnesses. As the Warren Commission observed, a substantial majority of witnesses recalled unequal spacing of the shots and the majority of these recalled that the last two shots were closer together. The WC did not really make much of this. But the evidence is more than merely significant. It is overwhelming. It is by this count [20]there were 44 witnesses who recalled the last two shots closer together, 6 who recalled it the other way around and 9 who recalled that the shots were about equally spaced. This consistency among witnesses is very difficult to explain as being driven by mistake. It means that this was the shot pattern. That shot pattern cannot be reconciled with the second shot SBT. Saskcitation 05:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Reply: No. This is not possible. If the first shot missed then the second shot hit JFK. Leaving aside the 17 witnesses by my count who said that JFK reacted to the first shot and none who said that he continued to wave and smile as we see him doing prior to z200, this is simply not possible if one is to have a shot pattern with the last two shots close together. Even if the second shot was as late as z224, you cannot get the last two shots closer together unless the first shot was before Zapruder started filming (224 to 313 is 5 seconds so you would need a first shot at least 6 seconds and probably 9 or 10 seconds before z224). Note: This shot pattern is actually the reason Max Holland has recently postulated such an early first shot 11 seconds before the head shot, (11 Seconds in Dallas: [21]). But this is obviously seriously flawed - there simply was not a shot that early according to the evidence. Saskcitation 06:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Reply: A shot at z133 (which is the first frame of Zapruder's film of the motorcade) would not have resulted in the last two shots being closer together. And it is difficult to understand how 4.9 seconds would be perceived by so many people to be "rapid succession" or "very close together" or "real close" or "almost as if one were the echo of the other" or "practically no time element between them".
In order for the shots at z224 and z313 to be noticeably closer together than the first two, the first shot would have to be several seconds before Zapruder started filming the motorcade. Since Zapruder started filming about 1 second after Tina Towner stopped filming, this means that the shot would have to have taken place before Tina Towner stopped her camera. But Tina Towner said that she stopped filming and started to get ready to leave when the first shot occurred (see Richard Trask's Pictures of the Pain Ch. 8, p 215-221; It contains references to an article in Teen Magazine in June, 1968 and also a copy of Life Magazine from Nov. 24, 1967. Trask quotes from the Teen and Life articles:
"Just after she stopped filming, Tina would later relate "now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in - the loudest crack of a rifle that I had ever heard")
In her personal account which is on display in the Sixth Floor Museum, Tina Turner estimated that the first shot was 4 to 6 seconds after she stopped filming.
Croft also puts the first shot after his third photo (later shown to have been snapped at z162). Croft's account is also mentioned in Trask's POTP Ch. 9, p.221-229. Trask interviewed Croft and also obtained documents on FBI files relating to Croft's photos. Croft's third photograph was taken before the first shot. In fact, Croft moved further down Elm wound his camera and may have twiddled the shutter speed or fstop before taking another photograph which, he said, he took just as the first shot sounded. He thought this photo #4 was taken simultaneously with the first shot. Unfortunately, the shot was un- or under-exposed and there was a blank negative. The point is that not only was #3 taken before the first shot, it was taken enough before that he was able to walk, wind the camera and take another.
Betzner, Willis, Woodward, TE Moore, the occupants of the VP and VP security cars and many others put the first shot well after the beginning of the zfilm.
So if the shot pattern was 1.....2..3, the second shot was well after frame 224. Saskcitation 05:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
A lot of material has been added by anon posters. Since some of it says stuff which is NOT true (ie, that Zapruder thought people had been hit by this or that shot-- he says himself he couldn't tell if there were 2 or 3 shots), I'm going to remove it unless you source it.
And as I was shooting, as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn, it was about a half-way down there, I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two, and I saw his head practically open up, all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.
So Zapruder was quite clear in his recollection that JFK slumped to his side after the first shot. The original WFAA-TV (ABC) interview is available on the MPI Teleproductions DVD Image of an Assassination.
-- Saskcitation 23:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
As for Ms. Connally and all three shots hitting the car, that's just wrong. The most famous Altgens photo, taken about Z-230 and probably in unconscious reaction to the sound of the second shot, shows JFK with hands to throat and his wife assisting him. And yet in that very frame, every single secret service agent on the running boards of the car behind is already looking upward and back, toward the TSBD. That's WAY too fast a reaction to a first shot. They had to be primed for that action by previous sound from behind (a shot before). And (by the testimony of many of them) they were, for they looked back and up immediately after seeing JFK hit by shot #2. But that first shot at Z-160 had no effect that anybody ever saw. Some people thought the second shot was the first, but they simply missed the first one. Many people testified to a first shot that was without effect. Zapruder jumps early in the film for no reason, and a little girl stops and looks around, all about Z-160. You can see the effects of the sound, but no effect on the limo. S B H arris 17:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
"As for Ms. Connally and all three shots hitting the car, that's just wrong. The most famous Altgens photo, taken about Z-230 and probably in unconscious reaction to the sound of the second shot, shows JFK with hands to throat and his wife assisting him. And yet in that very frame, every single secret service agent on the running boards of the car behind is already looking upward and back, toward the TSBD. That's WAY too fast a reaction to a first shot. "
Altgens photo was taken at frame z255-56. You can match Jacquie's hands to the zfilm and verify this for yourself. You are ignoring the fact that Altgens said that his photo was taken after the first shot but before any other shot. Although he was not sure whether there was one or two shots afterward, he was sure there had only been one to the point he took that photo. If the first shot was at z202, which is what Phil Willis said (it was at the same instant he took his photo which is exactly at z202) this gives the agents almost 3 seconds to react the way they appear in the Altgens photo.
There is a great deal of evidence that all three shots hit the occupants of the car: Many witnesses said the first shot hit JFK; the Connallys, corroborated by others such as David Powers, Gayle Newman, and driver William Greer, said that the second shot hit the Governor in the back; the Zapruder film shows the third bullet striking JFK. That is three shots, three hits. One can disagree with the evidence and suggest that it was not correct, but one cannot say that there was no evidence.
The Warren Commission obviously believed that one shot must have missed, but it could not say whether the first, second or third shot missed. It is a logical corollary to the single bullet theory, but there is no independent evidence of a missed shot. -- Saskcitation Jan. 21, 14:00 CST
I am not sure how you can see what JFK is doing while behind the sign. His actions are quite consistent with being hit at z202. At z207 he appears to begin reacting - at least according to the HSCA panel who looked at it. I can't tell. He may not have felt much impact and his reaction may have taken a second or so to begin - we may be seeing the beginning of it at when he emerges. That is not much of a delayed reaction - 1.25 seconds at the most and possibly as early as z207.
- Reply. Reacting sure. But Connally said he reacted to the first shot. He recognized it as a rifle shot and turned back to see JFK. He said he just wasn't hit by it im the back. He said Oh, no, no, no before he was hit. He appears to be saying oh, no, no, no. around z235-40. -- Saskcitation 04:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
No, I can't see JFK from Z-215 to 226, but based on what he's BEGINING to do at 226, almost in ballet time with Connally's beginning bilateral arm flex-flinch, I think they are both hit there at the same time. We can disagree on that till doomsday, but we certainly know that Connally didn't recall correctly doing what he said he did do, unless the Z film is a fake. So we can't trust the memories of a guy who's just taken a bullet through the chest.
As for your witnesses, you ought to call them earwitnesses, but it's clear JFK is shot while behind the sign, and there's a LONG time between then and 313. So the Earwitnesses are wrong about the short interval there, unless there's there an extra shot which has no effect on anybody. If you want to shoot JFK through the neck at 206, you need to do it with a bullet that then just disappears. If the earwitnesses say that happened, I'm just going to assume they didn't "hear" the second shot until they saw the president react to it, and that was the point they realized it WAS a shot, and committed that as fact to memory. WHich is a tricky thing. Don't place too much evidence on testimony. You may have written a whole paper on this, but that only makes you more partisan. S B H arris 01:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The bottom line is that we cannot say with any confidence what is and what is not a reasonable reaction to these events. We have to look at the evidence and stay away from "expert" opinions. The "science" of interpreting reactions is fraught with uncertainty. The evidence of many witnesses converges on a first shot at z200 or so. This is a complicated analysis but essentially it involves looking at the testimony of witnesses along Elm St. near the President and relating their actual location to their descriptions of where the President was in relation to where they were standing when they heard the first shot.
Another important body of consistent evidence is ths shot pattern: 44 witnesses recalled confidently the shot pattern of: shot, long pause, shot, short pause shot. 6 witnesses thought it was the other way around, but none were confident. 10 thought the shots were about equally spaced, but none were confident. If you would like to read my paper on the shot pattern, you can download it at http://www.dufourlaw.com/jfk/shot_pattern_evidence.pdf The 1......2...3 shot pattern is wholly inconsistent with a second shot SBT. The only possibility for the SBT with this shot pattern is a first shot SBT. -- Saskcitation, Jan 21, 2007, 14:20 CST.
- Reply. How about a cite? Courts rely on witness evidence every day. Our laws make it very difficult to ignore corroborated witness evidence. I happen to be a Canadian trial lawyer with 25 years of trial and appellate experience, so I would challenge you on any blanket statement that in law witnesses are presumptively not reliable.
Of course, witnesses can be reliable or unreliable. Knowing how to tell the difference is important. Courts and investigators depend on witness testimony and generally do not have difficulty distinguishing between recollections that are reliable and those that are not. Psychologists have tested and studied witness perception, memory and recall under a variety of conditions. While these studies confirm that individual witnesses are fallible, they show that honest witness recollection is, more often than not, accurate - with the greatest accuracy on the most salient details. Courts find it safe to rely on witness testimony where the testimony is consistent with other evidence and particularly if there is corroboration on material details.
See: Elizabeth Loftus on Witness reliability. Loftus, Eliz. F., Eyewitness Testimony, (Cambridge, MA: 1979), Harvard University Press at p. 25 ff. She lists several studies showing that witnesses are quite reliable on salient details. Not 100%, but even with suggestions being made to them, witnesses are right 60% of the time and when not interfered with over 90%. So when you get several witnesses saying the same thing either they made the same mistake for a common reason or actually observed the same thing.
- Reply. I think you are overstating Loftus' point. She does not say that witnesses tend to get things wrong more often than not. She says witness evidence needs corroboration in order to support a reliable conviction. This is a quote from the article you cited:
"LOFTUS: Often times, eyewitness testimony is accurate and in many cases has proven to be accurate, because you have circumstantial evidence. You know the victim's belongings are found in the defendant's home. The defendant's fingerprints are found in the victim's bedroom. You have corroborating evidence that helps to confirm that the eyewitness testimony is accurate. So it's no wonder that we see many situations where eyewitness testimony is accurate, we see it's accurate, we know it's accurate, it's just that fraction of the time where it's uncorroborated, unsubstantiated, that's all we have and it could be mistaken especially if things weren't done right."
Now with respect to the shot pattern or number of shots, we are talking not about one witness. We are talking dozens of witnesses that are corroborated by other evidence. For example, the shot pattern is corroborated by the zfilm: witnesses who said that JBC was hit just before he fell back (Greer, Powers, Newman). He falls back at z280 or so, which fits the 1....2..3 pattern. Loftus does not suggest that such large numbers of consistent corroborated witnesses are unreliable. -- Saskcitation 08:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The odds of 10 independent witnesses being all wrong on fact recollection in the same way become vanishingly small. This is quite different than eye-witness identification evidence. Such evidence requires extreme caution and rigourous techniques to obtain properly and is not reliable unless corroborated. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Again, nonsense. Example: 9/11. A huge fraction of people interviewed later said they clearly remember where they were on 9/11 and that on that day they saw footage on TV of the first plane hitting the first tower, before the second one hit. They were all wrong. No such footage was available that day to the public, and nobody saw it. Not just thousands, but millions of people got it wrong. Just one example for you. S B H arris 07:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Classroom demos with video cameras of faked unexpected events (with later essays and then comparisons) are a must in every college Psych class 101. How is it that you missed all that?
Because you must go though all that scientific crap to become a medical or social psychology expert, and you just didn't bother? What?
:Reply. A cite would help. If it is scientific presumably you can give us a cite. Again, read Loftus. Courts accept witness evidence all the time and miscarriages of justice are rare. DNA is unequivocal evidence. You can't really compare the zfilm with DNA. It does not show Connally being hit. That is just a matter of interpretation. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, if you think the single bullet Wiki is going to get skewed this badly by a paper from one guy (namely you) when a thousand people have worked for years untangling this mystery, think again. We have room for major conclusions from major investigations-- that's about it. I can name you three computer graffic investigations that see Connally hit at 224.
- Reply. Cite? Not Dale Myers. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, Dale Myers is one. And here's your cite. [25] and actually the better one from Myer's website: go through all sections. [26] S B H arris 07:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reply. Myers just does an animation of the shots and trajectory. He never says he can see JBC hit at z224. Never. He is positing his theory. -- Saskcitation 08:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- He says the computer animation shows it THERE. How much clearer does he need to be? [27]
I can SEE that he is.
Where is the blood? How is it that David Powers, Gayle Newman, Wm. Greer, all said Connally fell back immediately on the second shot? All I see is a rather robust looking Governor trying to turn back to see JFK for three seconds from z230-270 - just as he said he did after the first shot and before he was hit. Altgens said his z255 photo was taken after the first shot and before the second. Nellie Connally said she never turned to look back into the rear seat after her husband was hit on the second shot. She is looking back as late as z260. So, while you may believe that you SEE him being hit, others who are just as honest and objective disagree. A public document about the SBT must point out all the evidence, for and against. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest the public is entitled to assess the SBT against the evidence, such as the fact that 44 witnesses distinctly recalled a 1......2..3 shot pattern (ie. it is a fact that they gave statements recalling the pattern). Of course, that pattern is inconsistent with a second shot as early as z224. People interested in finding the truth will take all evidence seriously. I think it is important in putting out a public objective statement that you state the evidence for and against the theory and let people use that information to form their own conclusions. It is not up to us to say what occurred: merely to objectively provide the evidence. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I can SEE JFK waving at Z-204 with one hand, not clenching at his throat. GO back and watch the film again. And again. And again. Watch it till you get it. S B H arris 01:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reply. A human being cannot physically begin to react to anything in less than about 100 ms. and usually require 250 ms. to actually do something (like press a brake pedal). In the case of JFK, no nerves were hit and no bone (except perhaps a small bone protruding from a cervical vertebra). It may be that he did not feel it but only noticed the loss of function (breathing problem). If he was hit at z202 as Phil Willis stated (he said his z202 photo was taken at the instant of the first shot. Hugh Betzner said his photo at z186 was taken just before the first shot (as he was quickly winding his camera to take another). 2 frames is about 100 ms.
You seem rather defensive about your interpretation of the zfilm. Readers may wish to see what the witnesses say they saw before trying to interpret the film. Saskcitation 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
JFK Lancer It says that Connally said in a Life magazine interview that he tought he was hit at Z frame 234.
Reply:That is true - Life, November 25, 1966. He also said it to the Warren Commission in 1964. No one asked him where he turns to his right and looks behind him to see the President. I don't see any such turn before z234 and no one else has been able to see it. Are we supposed to think it happened behind the sign in 1 second? Connally insisted that it was the second shot that hit him and that he made a turn right around to his right and tried to see the president after the first shot and before the second. So his opinion that he looked like he was hit at z234 is not consistent with the events that he recalled.-- Saskcitation 15:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
As for Mrs. Connally, she says says her husband was hit AFTER she saw JFK with hands to throat, but as noted, all that really means is that she noticed he was hit after that. After the throat shot the Z film shows her look at JFK, then up front to the secret service, THEN finally at her husband, who is starting to react. Again she may have collapsed two memories into one.
I mentioned the first-plane-into-the-twin-towers false-memories for a reason, and you missed it. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing Loftus says happens. People who saw that footage later, misremembered and thought they'd seen it on 9/11, when they really only saw plane #2 that day. That is, people who saw the second plane footage on 9/11 later collapsed that memory with footage of plane #1, available only later. It happens. It happened on 9/11 to a LOT more than 44 people. Why don't you get the point? If we had no actual record that plane strike #1 footage had not been broadcast on 9/11, and were going by witness testimony alone, we'd have a HUGE testimonial base that it had been broadcast on that day. But IN FACT it wasn't, end of discussion. No matter how many people THOUGHT they saw it. Okay? S B H arris 20:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Saskcitation 05:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC) As to a shot as early as z160, not only do the 44 shot pattern witnesses exclude that as a possibility, so do about 16 "first shot hit" witnesses" (see above under "Criticism" section); so do a similar number of witnesses who place the first shot at about z200-220: ie the 5 occupants of the VP follow-up car who said their car was just turning the corner (parallel to the TBSD) at the time of the first shot (it is not there at z192); the occupants of the VP car who said they had completed the turn and were going down Elm at the time of the first shot (it is still turning at z175); Hugh Betzner who said he took his z186 photo before the first shot; or Phil Willis who said he took his z202 photo at the instant of the first shot, or Linda Willis who said that the limousine was between her and the Stemmons sign at the time of the first shot (z199-204); Or T. Moore who said that the President was about opposite the Thornton Freeway sign (located at z210); or Wm. Greer driving the limousine who said the limo was just about past the west corner of the TBSD when the first shot sounded. No one said there was a shot any where near z160. And no one said JFK did not react to it.
This article is far too long and detailed, while at the same lacks in-line citations for many of its claims. It is biased throughout, nowhere providing a clear, concise and objective description. For example, the introduction contains a sarcastic criticism of the theory. The remarkable length of this talk page and the theory-wars within it is indicative of authors who misunderstand the basic function of an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.197.84 ( talk) 06:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree with 76. I mean, buried in the long-winded argument I am in the midst of above with Sask is my point that, uh, the reasons why he Warren Commission saw fit to come up with the theory in the first place are lacking, something which if fixed would make this article somewhat more coherent. AS for the sneering criticism of the theory, I am shocked - shocked! - that the various sneering writers haven't documented each layer of skin the bullet pierced - "...the bullet then pierced the epidermis layer of skin, followed by the dermis layer, and finally the hypodermis layer before proceeding to penetrate the muscle..." .
When the reasons the Warren Commission came up with the theory are made clear, and the various corroborative pieces of evidence were arrived at, one can see this was not simply some desperate attempt to "explain away" something here but the only solution to some evidentiary problems. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
A cursory look at these sections reveal the same problem I note above with the "missed shot" section. While I think a lot of work needs to be done on stuff here which will presumably be retained if there is editing to be done on the page - such as supplying some citations for "the critics" of various aspects of the SBT (and I am well aware of critiques of many of these aspects out there) - it seems that the sections I mention here in the head are NOT critiques arising from various published sources, those who fault the SBT in whatever form. Correct me if I am wrong on this, anyone out there who knows more about those aspects than me, but I am unaware of these arguments being made in published sources. So, if we don't have critics citing a) shot pattern or b) right to left trajectory as reasons for faulting the SBT, then those sections must be omitted. As far as I can tell, there is simply a lot of links to WC testimony, nothing linked to an author making the argument. At the very least, we need to know, when it says "A further criticism..." in the first section, who is making that "further criticism," and when it says "...has also been criticized on the grounds that it does not fit the shot pattern recalled by most of the witnesses," who is making those criticisms. Canada Jack ( talk) 18:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)