This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Obsolete talk material containing negative accusations about living people removed per WP:BLP. diff
Should not this be stubbed or deleted because of the ArbCom decision? What, exactly, does the ArbCom decision mean and how should it be enforced?
Stompin' Tom 20:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Probably an administrator should so it, rather than an non-admin risk provoking an edit war. A few people seem to have strong feelings on this. The ArbCom says it should go, and I do not understand why they, or their clerk, does not delete it. While the Marsden article had some work done on it to mitigate the worst abuses, this one seems pretty much as it was when it was dealt with by ArbCom. As I wrote on the Marsden discussion page, does this dispute set a precedent of any kind? From what I've read, no. Does it fit into a bigger picture regarding sexual harassment, or allegations of same, in academia? Are there more articles on Wikipedia dealing with individual cases of allegations of sexual harassment? If so, does this case belong in a broader article? I rather doubt that, since there really was no official resolution. Both sides got cash settlements and a restoration to the status quo pro ante in regards to theor positions in the university. I'm not really sure what this is about. Sexual harassment? Unfair allegations? Sexual harassmenent/allegations in academia? Or is it just some local story that titilates a small group of people in Vancouver. Time to, as Slim Virgin says on the Rachel Marsden talk page, draw a line under this. Let it sit for a few years and see if anyone cares or remembers, or mention it in context in an over-reaching article on sexual harassment allegations on campus. Stompin' Tom 23:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this was a major case which received significant national coverage. I'm very concerned about the precedent set by removing this article, particularly without any substantive discussion having taken place. CJCurrie 05:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to delete both the article talk pages because they're full of BLP issues. I'll wait for a bit because people may want to continue this discussion. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
It might be useful, given the ArbCom decision on this matter, to spell out clearly where the article violated WP:BLP before deleting the talkpage. A quick look around here, the ArbCom decision and at Google's cache of the original article leaves me unclear on the degree of the violation. Note also the Request for Clarification filed to ArbCom. I think an unprotect may be in order. This does not mean that specific sections of either talkpage should not be immediately deleted per WP:BLP. Hornplease 21:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
FYI, this article is currently under Deletion Review: Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Marsden-Donnelly_harassment_case. Kla'quot 01:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The deletion review close included 1) relisting at AFD and 2) determining that the article should not be at the old title. This specific new title "Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy" is not required. The cutting down that I did is an editorial decision, but it is one that I believe will help the article adhere to WP:BLP and not create undue weight in violation of WP:NPOV. I encourage editors to look for further ways to remove biographical content from this article while focusing it primarily on the encyclopedic aspects of the case, which I believe is primarily the impact on the university. (Sourcing offered in deletion review for the claim that it did have a wider impact on other universities was unconvincing. I did not pay to read the Phi Delta Kappan article, but it was written in 1997 so can't have been a historical retrospective, and other sources I found were merely expecting such impact, as opposed to documenting it.) GRBerry 07:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Not having seen it closing the DRV, this didn't affect the close, and is being offered as an editorial opinion. But this document is closer to my vision for the page than the end of November version that I cut down was. The vision behind cutting down the article was to try and find a path off the cycle of speedy deletion, deletion review, AFD keep. With an example to point at, I can now illustrate that vision better. Specifically:
GRBerry 20:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I just reverted the addition of a paragraph about a mention in a book. It was sourced to Salon.com. I attempted to follow the link and found that the information is not available on the portion of the source article that non-subscribers may read. Prior discussion at Talk:Salon.com/as a source for Wikipedia leans to a conclusion that Salon is considered a sub-par source, and that especially for WP:BLP sensitive articles, such as this one, we prefer not to use it as a sole source for any facts. If the content can be sourced from a more definitively reliable source, we can evaluate its inclusion again. GRBerry 21:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The following was posted at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard in response to a question I raised there about this removal, despite my request to centralize discussion here. diff GRBerry 14:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a comment [1] asking for the Rachel Marsden article to be put back up. The place to make such requests is Wikipedia:Deletion review. This is the talk page for discussing how to improve the article on the Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy and we are strict about keeping the discussion on-topic. Respectfully, Kla’quot ( talk | contribs) 00:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
The style guidelines on the lead section state that the lead should summarize the content of the article. Currently the case itself is only covered in the lead, and the sections cover only SFU process and consequences. There is a sourced section discussing the case in the version from November 2006 (the "mutual accusations" section only). Before I restore it, I would like to hear opinions on possible WP:BLP concerns. ~ trialsanderrors ( talk) 14:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is what I think ca be included from the section, with eliminated material marker as [...]. Please redact where needed. ~ trialsanderrors ( talk) 15:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
In late 1996, Marsden and Donnelly lodged complaints with the Simon Fraser University harassment office against one another over events that occurred in 1994 and 1995. Their accounts of what had happened differed. [...] Her formal complaint to SFU involved "seven allegations of unwanted sexual attention, two allegations of intimidating behaviour and a general charge of psychological sexual harassment." [1] Donnelly, by contrast, denied any romantic relationship with Marsden and claimed that she had
in factbeen harassing him.[...] [2] [3][...] [4][...] [5] [...].
References
This entry, over the years, has been a spectacular example of the anti-feminism that plagues Wikipedia's overwhelmingly white, middle-class male "editors". It is a textbook case of men failing to believe a woman and using any source -- including a Fraser Institute "report" written by a conservative university professor for a right-wing Koch-financed "think tank" -- to discredit her side of the story. The entry, and Marsden's, has been filled with "slut shaming" material through the years. The authors have tenaciously fought against this woman and her story through ArbComm cases and have worked to silence or ban those who have stood up for her. It had been an appalling spectacle that would likely not happen in the #metoo years, and it's something Wikipedia really needs to look at. Wikipedia culture biases have harmed the reputations of many, many people who have been victimized by full-time Wikipedia "editors" who know how to use arbitration and administrative functions to their benefit. Spoonkymonkey ( talk) 13:01, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
The new source is an Opinon piece in the university's student newspaper. Is it really reliable enough to use? GRBerry 17:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Obsolete talk material containing negative accusations about living people removed per WP:BLP. diff
Should not this be stubbed or deleted because of the ArbCom decision? What, exactly, does the ArbCom decision mean and how should it be enforced?
Stompin' Tom 20:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Probably an administrator should so it, rather than an non-admin risk provoking an edit war. A few people seem to have strong feelings on this. The ArbCom says it should go, and I do not understand why they, or their clerk, does not delete it. While the Marsden article had some work done on it to mitigate the worst abuses, this one seems pretty much as it was when it was dealt with by ArbCom. As I wrote on the Marsden discussion page, does this dispute set a precedent of any kind? From what I've read, no. Does it fit into a bigger picture regarding sexual harassment, or allegations of same, in academia? Are there more articles on Wikipedia dealing with individual cases of allegations of sexual harassment? If so, does this case belong in a broader article? I rather doubt that, since there really was no official resolution. Both sides got cash settlements and a restoration to the status quo pro ante in regards to theor positions in the university. I'm not really sure what this is about. Sexual harassment? Unfair allegations? Sexual harassmenent/allegations in academia? Or is it just some local story that titilates a small group of people in Vancouver. Time to, as Slim Virgin says on the Rachel Marsden talk page, draw a line under this. Let it sit for a few years and see if anyone cares or remembers, or mention it in context in an over-reaching article on sexual harassment allegations on campus. Stompin' Tom 23:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this was a major case which received significant national coverage. I'm very concerned about the precedent set by removing this article, particularly without any substantive discussion having taken place. CJCurrie 05:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to delete both the article talk pages because they're full of BLP issues. I'll wait for a bit because people may want to continue this discussion. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
It might be useful, given the ArbCom decision on this matter, to spell out clearly where the article violated WP:BLP before deleting the talkpage. A quick look around here, the ArbCom decision and at Google's cache of the original article leaves me unclear on the degree of the violation. Note also the Request for Clarification filed to ArbCom. I think an unprotect may be in order. This does not mean that specific sections of either talkpage should not be immediately deleted per WP:BLP. Hornplease 21:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
FYI, this article is currently under Deletion Review: Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Marsden-Donnelly_harassment_case. Kla'quot 01:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The deletion review close included 1) relisting at AFD and 2) determining that the article should not be at the old title. This specific new title "Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy" is not required. The cutting down that I did is an editorial decision, but it is one that I believe will help the article adhere to WP:BLP and not create undue weight in violation of WP:NPOV. I encourage editors to look for further ways to remove biographical content from this article while focusing it primarily on the encyclopedic aspects of the case, which I believe is primarily the impact on the university. (Sourcing offered in deletion review for the claim that it did have a wider impact on other universities was unconvincing. I did not pay to read the Phi Delta Kappan article, but it was written in 1997 so can't have been a historical retrospective, and other sources I found were merely expecting such impact, as opposed to documenting it.) GRBerry 07:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Not having seen it closing the DRV, this didn't affect the close, and is being offered as an editorial opinion. But this document is closer to my vision for the page than the end of November version that I cut down was. The vision behind cutting down the article was to try and find a path off the cycle of speedy deletion, deletion review, AFD keep. With an example to point at, I can now illustrate that vision better. Specifically:
GRBerry 20:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I just reverted the addition of a paragraph about a mention in a book. It was sourced to Salon.com. I attempted to follow the link and found that the information is not available on the portion of the source article that non-subscribers may read. Prior discussion at Talk:Salon.com/as a source for Wikipedia leans to a conclusion that Salon is considered a sub-par source, and that especially for WP:BLP sensitive articles, such as this one, we prefer not to use it as a sole source for any facts. If the content can be sourced from a more definitively reliable source, we can evaluate its inclusion again. GRBerry 21:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The following was posted at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard in response to a question I raised there about this removal, despite my request to centralize discussion here. diff GRBerry 14:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed a comment [1] asking for the Rachel Marsden article to be put back up. The place to make such requests is Wikipedia:Deletion review. This is the talk page for discussing how to improve the article on the Simon Fraser University 1997 harassment controversy and we are strict about keeping the discussion on-topic. Respectfully, Kla’quot ( talk | contribs) 00:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
The style guidelines on the lead section state that the lead should summarize the content of the article. Currently the case itself is only covered in the lead, and the sections cover only SFU process and consequences. There is a sourced section discussing the case in the version from November 2006 (the "mutual accusations" section only). Before I restore it, I would like to hear opinions on possible WP:BLP concerns. ~ trialsanderrors ( talk) 14:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is what I think ca be included from the section, with eliminated material marker as [...]. Please redact where needed. ~ trialsanderrors ( talk) 15:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
In late 1996, Marsden and Donnelly lodged complaints with the Simon Fraser University harassment office against one another over events that occurred in 1994 and 1995. Their accounts of what had happened differed. [...] Her formal complaint to SFU involved "seven allegations of unwanted sexual attention, two allegations of intimidating behaviour and a general charge of psychological sexual harassment." [1] Donnelly, by contrast, denied any romantic relationship with Marsden and claimed that she had
in factbeen harassing him.[...] [2] [3][...] [4][...] [5] [...].
References
This entry, over the years, has been a spectacular example of the anti-feminism that plagues Wikipedia's overwhelmingly white, middle-class male "editors". It is a textbook case of men failing to believe a woman and using any source -- including a Fraser Institute "report" written by a conservative university professor for a right-wing Koch-financed "think tank" -- to discredit her side of the story. The entry, and Marsden's, has been filled with "slut shaming" material through the years. The authors have tenaciously fought against this woman and her story through ArbComm cases and have worked to silence or ban those who have stood up for her. It had been an appalling spectacle that would likely not happen in the #metoo years, and it's something Wikipedia really needs to look at. Wikipedia culture biases have harmed the reputations of many, many people who have been victimized by full-time Wikipedia "editors" who know how to use arbitration and administrative functions to their benefit. Spoonkymonkey ( talk) 13:01, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
The new source is an Opinon piece in the university's student newspaper. Is it really reliable enough to use? GRBerry 17:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)