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Gina Shaw (reviewed by Ann Edmundson, MD) Doctors Sound Off About TomKat 'Silent Birth' Plan Thursday, April 13, 2006, FoxNews (originally published by WebMD) Perhaps someone can incorporate this into the article? I am too tired to do it justice. Vivaldi ( talk) 08:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Er, I'm no great fan of Scientology, but I kinda have to point out that the link to this statement is just to About.com on "Silent Birth", and merely repeats "Medical experts recommend against..." Surely a better link is required? Camillus (talk) 22:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
L. Ron Hubbard never claimed to be a medical doctor and the term "prescribe" is therefore misleading or confusing. L. Ron Hubbard was instead an Auditor: someone who observe and listen.
Furthermore, L. Ron Hubbard wrote: "What is true is what is true for you", "What is true is what you have experience yourself." "Nothing is true in Dianetics and Scientology unless you have observed it and it is true according to your own observation and that is all." This is repeated over and over during Sunday Services. -- Jpierreg ( talk) 20:10, 03 May 2006 (GMT).
It seems to me that the CoS will tolerate any belief whatsoever as long as that person is giving them enough money or bringing in enough new recruits to cover any (if any) losses they will incur from said beliefs. Every rational person knows that LRH included the "what is true is true for you" slogan because he knew he was writing gibberish, and only a small percentage of his doctrine would appeal to a given recruit. Therefore, the slogan absolves the new Scientologist from any doubt about the cult when they inevitably hear something ridiculous.
There is no specific policy written by L. Ron Hubbard indicating how a Scientology child birth is to be conducted. The recommendations in the this article are derived from the application of Dianetics and Scientology principles to child birth which are mostly contained in the book Dianetics. [1] -- Jpierreg( talk) 20:10, 03 May 2006 (GMT).
The birthplace should be as quiet as it is reasonably possible. The emphasise is on the -words- [3]-- Jpierreg 23:00, 02 May 2006 (GMT).
Medicalnewstoday.com is a press release web site. Anybody can send them a press release and have it published. They do not do fact checking or exert editorial control like WebMD or other respected web sites. They are not reputable or reliable in the field of medicine. Vivaldi ( talk) 01:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The information that Jpierreg is trying to source to medicalnewstoday.com is a press release that comes from the Scientology.com site that has already been cited and sourced in this article. There is no reason to have a link to medicalnewstoday.com in the article. You can clearly see that the author of the article is the Church of Scientology itself. Look at the bottom of the page. Then notice the words in the article are an exact duplication of the words on the Scientology.org page. Jpierreg is trying to give the impression that this information's appearance on medicalnewstoday.com makes the information holds weight with the medical community, when clearly the opposite is correct. Vivaldi ( talk) 01:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
“Everyone must learn to say nothing within the expectant mother's hearing during labor and delivery.”
“A woman who wants her child to have the best possible chance will find a doctor who will agree to keep quiet especially during the delivery, and who will insist upon silence being maintained in the hospital delivery room as far as it is humanly possible.”
“We warn husbands to be quiet and not disruptive, to rub the back between contractions.”
“We warn husbands to be quiet and not disruptive, to rub the back between contractions.”
"Today's children will become tomorrow's civilization. Try to be the child's friend. It is certainly true that a child needs friends. Try to find out what a child's problem really is and without crushing their own solutions, try to help solve them. A child factually does not do well without love. Most children have an abundance of it to return."
"The spoiled child is the child whose decisions have been interrupted continuously and who is robbed of his independence."
"Affection could no more spoil a child than the sun could be put out by a bucket of gasoline."
“A good, stable adult with love and tolerance in his heart is about the best therapy a child can have.”
QUOTE Scientologists' claims regarding the care of babies and infants are disputed by many doctors and other professionals. Patricia Devine, MD, a maternal-fetal medicine specialist who directs the Labor and Delivery Unit at Columbia University Medical Center, said, "There's absolutely no scientific evidence that taking [noise] away at the time of delivery will have any effect on outcome for the baby or mother." [1] When asked if there was any medical evidence that indicated that silent birth was beneficial, Damian Alagia, MD, associate clinical professor in the department of obstetrics and gynecology at George Washington University Medical Center, replied, "It may be in the Scientology literature, but it's not in the scientific literature. In my understanding, L. Ron Hubbard never spent any time in medical school, studying pediatrics or studying neonatal development. To think that a baby born in silence is going to do any better than a baby born, say, listening to Hank Williams is just foolhardy." [1] Other medical experts recommend against silent births as they are believed to hinder the bonding that normally occurs between mother and child in the first week of an infant's life. [2] UNQUOTE
References
The term "procedure" is misleading if it is not followed by a disclaimer "there is no policy indicating how a Scientology child birth should ideally be conducted. The recommendations in this article are derived from the application of Dianetics and Scientology principles to child birth which are mostly contained in the book Dianetics" or something of the sort. Please also see the last sentences of this web page for a second witness with his own web site [5] -- Jpierreg ( talk) 20:10, 03 May 2006 (GMT)
Hi Vivaldi,
I have verifiable, reputable, reliable info about silent birth at this link:
http://www.scientology.org/html/en_US/news-media/index.html
Please use it to correct your article, which makes various false claims with no citations, for instance, about anesthetic use and whether the mother is allowed to make any noise at all...
69.12.131.206 07:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan
Tilman,
I'm basing my dismissal of the Spierings as pseudo-Scientologists based on the info provided at this link:
http://news.aol.com/photos/_p/louise-spiering-ray-spiering/2007012715290999
The Spierings attend a fundamentalist Christian church. The other Nebraskan challenge to the state mandatory newborn blood test law also came from a fundamentalist couple named Josue and Mary Anaya. Perhaps some pastor out there is getting his flock riled up about blood tests. My supposition: The Spierings may not have wanted to bring disrepute on their church by associating it in the public press with refusal of blood tests, so they pretended to be Scientologists. Unfortunately for their story no rule forbidding newborn blood tests exists in CoS. Don't you think you would have read something about it before if CoS had such a rule? Discuss it with some ex-Scientologists who have kids, if you doubt me.
The Wikipedia silent birth article also states that during silent birth "no pain or anguish is verbally expressed by the mother while experiencing labor pains or the birth itself..." That's a riot. No one is looking very hard for the LRH book, bulletin or policy letter that says this, are they? That would be a lengthy search, since it doesn't exist. Most of the press stories about silent birth were clearly yanked out of some tabloid editor's fundament, er, imagination. There is no need to propagate their drivel here.
Cheers,
69.12.131.206 08:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan
Tilman,
The silent birth article makes extraordinary claims; it is up to the writer of the article to support these claims when challenged. Per Jimmy Wales it is better to have no information than false or misleading information. If you wrote the article, please support the claim that Scientologist mothers undergoing silent birth aren't supposed to express pain or anguish verbally while experiencing labor pains or the birth itself. Use LRH or CoS sources, not dubious stuff like the Spierings' tale... you won't be able to do it without making some VERY far-fetched interpretations of CoS policy.
69.12.131.206 22:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan
I removed this paragraph since I didn't find a reference to 'no pain medication' being part of the silent birth process, and the paragraph inaccurately claims that childbirth without anesthesia is dangerous (ref: Childbirth). Kerowyn Leave a note 04:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, the theory of "silent birth" is completely unnatural, as it goes against hundreds of thousands of years of human instinct.
Secondly, if noise during childbirth was harmful to the child in any way, it would have been documented well before L. Ron Hubbard came along.
Thirdly, no one remembers their birth. It's impossible at any stage of your life to remember your birth, so whether there was noise during it or not is completely irrelevant.
I suggest we look for articles and columns that already substantiate this. Ericster08 ( talk) 15:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't know why there's a conspicuous lack of connection between the "Silent birth" and "Engram" articles, when the topics are quite closely and intimately related... I just now added mutual "See also"s as an interim measure... AnonMoos ( talk) 18:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I think it's a little contentious to say 'Hubbard believed...' about any aspect of Scientology. It's well known that he didn't believe any of of it, it was an exercise in inventing a religion to prove he could for a wager. 146.90.215.148 ( talk) 07:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Silent birth article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
Gina Shaw (reviewed by Ann Edmundson, MD) Doctors Sound Off About TomKat 'Silent Birth' Plan Thursday, April 13, 2006, FoxNews (originally published by WebMD) Perhaps someone can incorporate this into the article? I am too tired to do it justice. Vivaldi ( talk) 08:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Er, I'm no great fan of Scientology, but I kinda have to point out that the link to this statement is just to About.com on "Silent Birth", and merely repeats "Medical experts recommend against..." Surely a better link is required? Camillus (talk) 22:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
L. Ron Hubbard never claimed to be a medical doctor and the term "prescribe" is therefore misleading or confusing. L. Ron Hubbard was instead an Auditor: someone who observe and listen.
Furthermore, L. Ron Hubbard wrote: "What is true is what is true for you", "What is true is what you have experience yourself." "Nothing is true in Dianetics and Scientology unless you have observed it and it is true according to your own observation and that is all." This is repeated over and over during Sunday Services. -- Jpierreg ( talk) 20:10, 03 May 2006 (GMT).
It seems to me that the CoS will tolerate any belief whatsoever as long as that person is giving them enough money or bringing in enough new recruits to cover any (if any) losses they will incur from said beliefs. Every rational person knows that LRH included the "what is true is true for you" slogan because he knew he was writing gibberish, and only a small percentage of his doctrine would appeal to a given recruit. Therefore, the slogan absolves the new Scientologist from any doubt about the cult when they inevitably hear something ridiculous.
There is no specific policy written by L. Ron Hubbard indicating how a Scientology child birth is to be conducted. The recommendations in the this article are derived from the application of Dianetics and Scientology principles to child birth which are mostly contained in the book Dianetics. [1] -- Jpierreg( talk) 20:10, 03 May 2006 (GMT).
The birthplace should be as quiet as it is reasonably possible. The emphasise is on the -words- [3]-- Jpierreg 23:00, 02 May 2006 (GMT).
Medicalnewstoday.com is a press release web site. Anybody can send them a press release and have it published. They do not do fact checking or exert editorial control like WebMD or other respected web sites. They are not reputable or reliable in the field of medicine. Vivaldi ( talk) 01:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
The information that Jpierreg is trying to source to medicalnewstoday.com is a press release that comes from the Scientology.com site that has already been cited and sourced in this article. There is no reason to have a link to medicalnewstoday.com in the article. You can clearly see that the author of the article is the Church of Scientology itself. Look at the bottom of the page. Then notice the words in the article are an exact duplication of the words on the Scientology.org page. Jpierreg is trying to give the impression that this information's appearance on medicalnewstoday.com makes the information holds weight with the medical community, when clearly the opposite is correct. Vivaldi ( talk) 01:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
“Everyone must learn to say nothing within the expectant mother's hearing during labor and delivery.”
“A woman who wants her child to have the best possible chance will find a doctor who will agree to keep quiet especially during the delivery, and who will insist upon silence being maintained in the hospital delivery room as far as it is humanly possible.”
“We warn husbands to be quiet and not disruptive, to rub the back between contractions.”
“We warn husbands to be quiet and not disruptive, to rub the back between contractions.”
"Today's children will become tomorrow's civilization. Try to be the child's friend. It is certainly true that a child needs friends. Try to find out what a child's problem really is and without crushing their own solutions, try to help solve them. A child factually does not do well without love. Most children have an abundance of it to return."
"The spoiled child is the child whose decisions have been interrupted continuously and who is robbed of his independence."
"Affection could no more spoil a child than the sun could be put out by a bucket of gasoline."
“A good, stable adult with love and tolerance in his heart is about the best therapy a child can have.”
QUOTE Scientologists' claims regarding the care of babies and infants are disputed by many doctors and other professionals. Patricia Devine, MD, a maternal-fetal medicine specialist who directs the Labor and Delivery Unit at Columbia University Medical Center, said, "There's absolutely no scientific evidence that taking [noise] away at the time of delivery will have any effect on outcome for the baby or mother." [1] When asked if there was any medical evidence that indicated that silent birth was beneficial, Damian Alagia, MD, associate clinical professor in the department of obstetrics and gynecology at George Washington University Medical Center, replied, "It may be in the Scientology literature, but it's not in the scientific literature. In my understanding, L. Ron Hubbard never spent any time in medical school, studying pediatrics or studying neonatal development. To think that a baby born in silence is going to do any better than a baby born, say, listening to Hank Williams is just foolhardy." [1] Other medical experts recommend against silent births as they are believed to hinder the bonding that normally occurs between mother and child in the first week of an infant's life. [2] UNQUOTE
References
The term "procedure" is misleading if it is not followed by a disclaimer "there is no policy indicating how a Scientology child birth should ideally be conducted. The recommendations in this article are derived from the application of Dianetics and Scientology principles to child birth which are mostly contained in the book Dianetics" or something of the sort. Please also see the last sentences of this web page for a second witness with his own web site [5] -- Jpierreg ( talk) 20:10, 03 May 2006 (GMT)
Hi Vivaldi,
I have verifiable, reputable, reliable info about silent birth at this link:
http://www.scientology.org/html/en_US/news-media/index.html
Please use it to correct your article, which makes various false claims with no citations, for instance, about anesthetic use and whether the mother is allowed to make any noise at all...
69.12.131.206 07:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan
Tilman,
I'm basing my dismissal of the Spierings as pseudo-Scientologists based on the info provided at this link:
http://news.aol.com/photos/_p/louise-spiering-ray-spiering/2007012715290999
The Spierings attend a fundamentalist Christian church. The other Nebraskan challenge to the state mandatory newborn blood test law also came from a fundamentalist couple named Josue and Mary Anaya. Perhaps some pastor out there is getting his flock riled up about blood tests. My supposition: The Spierings may not have wanted to bring disrepute on their church by associating it in the public press with refusal of blood tests, so they pretended to be Scientologists. Unfortunately for their story no rule forbidding newborn blood tests exists in CoS. Don't you think you would have read something about it before if CoS had such a rule? Discuss it with some ex-Scientologists who have kids, if you doubt me.
The Wikipedia silent birth article also states that during silent birth "no pain or anguish is verbally expressed by the mother while experiencing labor pains or the birth itself..." That's a riot. No one is looking very hard for the LRH book, bulletin or policy letter that says this, are they? That would be a lengthy search, since it doesn't exist. Most of the press stories about silent birth were clearly yanked out of some tabloid editor's fundament, er, imagination. There is no need to propagate their drivel here.
Cheers,
69.12.131.206 08:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan
Tilman,
The silent birth article makes extraordinary claims; it is up to the writer of the article to support these claims when challenged. Per Jimmy Wales it is better to have no information than false or misleading information. If you wrote the article, please support the claim that Scientologist mothers undergoing silent birth aren't supposed to express pain or anguish verbally while experiencing labor pains or the birth itself. Use LRH or CoS sources, not dubious stuff like the Spierings' tale... you won't be able to do it without making some VERY far-fetched interpretations of CoS policy.
69.12.131.206 22:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan
I removed this paragraph since I didn't find a reference to 'no pain medication' being part of the silent birth process, and the paragraph inaccurately claims that childbirth without anesthesia is dangerous (ref: Childbirth). Kerowyn Leave a note 04:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, the theory of "silent birth" is completely unnatural, as it goes against hundreds of thousands of years of human instinct.
Secondly, if noise during childbirth was harmful to the child in any way, it would have been documented well before L. Ron Hubbard came along.
Thirdly, no one remembers their birth. It's impossible at any stage of your life to remember your birth, so whether there was noise during it or not is completely irrelevant.
I suggest we look for articles and columns that already substantiate this. Ericster08 ( talk) 15:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't know why there's a conspicuous lack of connection between the "Silent birth" and "Engram" articles, when the topics are quite closely and intimately related... I just now added mutual "See also"s as an interim measure... AnonMoos ( talk) 18:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I think it's a little contentious to say 'Hubbard believed...' about any aspect of Scientology. It's well known that he didn't believe any of of it, it was an exercise in inventing a religion to prove he could for a wager. 146.90.215.148 ( talk) 07:25, 28 February 2024 (UTC)