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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The Insultingly Stupid Movie Physics page has a section on gun silencers that suggests the line in this article "The overall effect of a good silencer can be dramatic, up to the point where the only audible noise is the mechanical parts of the gun moving." is woefully incorrect. But I'm no gun buff, so I don't want to unilaterally change the article. Anyone out there with real silencer experience who can vouch one way or the other? Bryan 06:19, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I find this slightly misleading:
> In some nations, such as England or Finland, they are practically unregulated and may be bought "over the counter" in retail stores.
as you cannot buy hand-guns under *any* circumstances in England and the UK. This negates the need for supressor regulation as suppressors are next to useless there. However, I'm not quite sure what one could put instead. Hmmm... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indiedan ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 11 March 2005 (UTC)
I can't find any reference in the Geneva or Hauge conventions prohibiting the use of suppressed firearms. I'll search a bit more, then I'm yanking the bit about them being prohibited in warfare until someone comes up with a solid reference. scot 03:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
> "The MP5 and Mark 23 chamber 9 mm Luger and .45 ACP rounds, respectively. Both of these ammunition types have subsonic muzzle velocities" - Most 9mm rounds are NOT subsonic. Geoff B 20:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
That's for law enforcement use, yep, but the poor armour penetration and less effective terminal ballistics means it's not the usual round for military use. Besides, the issue is that the article states that 9mm is subsonic, full stop. Geoff B 06:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed this sentence from the end of the article: "Chinese communists didn't think much of the POW-Status, anyhow." First of all, it seemed utterly unrelated to its context. Second, it sounds like a political smear. The person who contributed it also mentioned "Bonaparte Napoleon" and said "During the late 1950's the PLA has procured...." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivacissamamente ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 23 March 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't seem like an POW or opinion to me. It's written pretty "conversationly"-like, but, hey, it's an edit by a human, allright. We tend to do that - gettin' personal. Anyhows; If it were a fact that Chinese 'Communists' (I say that, 'cuz I don't believe they were actually any genuine) or more like Socialists didn't ipso factos think of the POW-Status in truth, then it's a fact - and an article needs facts if it's relevant, so why not keep it there and/or add it back? This also goes for PLA's "procuration" in the 50's. Just let it go. No need to steam. And what's that with Bonaparte Napoleon?- OleMurder 18:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
- The story about Napoleon vs. silenced firearm is found in a german article by K. Maleyka in 1937, saying that the Girandoni reservoir air rifle saw action against Napoleon and that he issued orders for the execution of Austrian soldiers found carrying airguns.
- BTW the reservoir airgun used by Lewis & Clark expedition has been found and identified in April 2005! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.48.242 ( talk) 15:53, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know which one of these is right but I know they can't both be. From the top: The near silent suppressed firearms seen in movies and television is pure fabrication; the most effective suppressors at most reduce sound to the level of a cough. Later on: Guns with the least 'leakage' are best, so a sealed breech (e.g. bolt action) is preferable and can be suppressed to the point that it makes only a "click" as the firing pin or hammer hits the primer. Which one is correct? Triddle 19:01, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
How much weapons loose on its effectivnes by puting a suppressor?
After dB ratings and comparable non-firearm results were added to the article, some people keep adding this quote: "However, because those are sources of continuous noise, the human ear perceives them as harsher and louder than a brief gunshot despite their similar meter readings."
New to this, so if I don't obey the Wikipedia protocol, forgive me. The definitions of firearm actions are very inaccurate in this section: For instance, you described "single action" as only producing the sound of a hammer hitting the firing pin, while double action cycles the next round. In fact, single and double action refer only to trigger mechanisms, and have nothing to do with cycle action. A double action pistol cocks the hammer and drops it with each pull of the trigger- this is how most modern revolvers work, and many automatics (including the Glock, though that is a striker instead of a hammer, the same concept applies). Single action firearms will only fire when the hammer is already cocked, as the trigger only drops the hammer. This is most typical of old revolvers (which had to be manually cocked before each shot) and the 1911 automatic design, which is carried with the hammer back and resets the hammer whenever it cycles. The vast majority of modern firearms are a combination which may be fired double action but will cock the hammer when they cycle, resulting in single action. So, both single and double action automatics eject the old cartridge and cycle a new round into the chamber with each shot, and yes, it's very loud, even with a suppressor. And correct, it is not as loud as the report of even a suppressed weapon. You also stated that dry firing will damage the firing pin. This is a minor quibble, but that's not true--modern firearms will not be damaged at all by dry firing. Next point- you said "the sound of bolt or hammer hitting the firing pin;" the bolt is a part on a rifle, which typically contains a striker. No bolt hits a firing pin in any firearm. Only a hammer hits, or a striker acts as both "hammer" (by releasing tension) and firing pin by striking the primer of a round. There is no bolt on a magazine fed handgun, only rifles; automatic handguns have a part called a "slide" which contains the barrel, hammer or striker, firing pin, chamber, and other upper parts of the weapon, and which cycles to eject an old cartridge and load another. Most modern automatic handguns have hammers, so stating "the sound of the bolt (magazine fed) or hammer (revolver)..." is inaccurate. Finally, on a revolver a new round is cycled as the trigger is pulled and before the hammer drops, and it is usually very quiet (quieter than the impact of the hammer on the firing pin), unlike the very fast and violent cycling of an automatic (which is MUCH louder than the hammer). Since it is before the shot and quiet, it is not of great concern for a suppressed firearm. I would do these edits myself, but never having done so I would rather that someone who knows the style and is much more familiar with modern firearm actions or someone who read up on revolvers/automatics and single action/double action edited the section to be accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.224.216 ( talk) 21:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
See this.
While firearms are hard to get (And handguns impossible, to the extent the British Olympic pistol team trains in France) if you have one of the lesser regulated firearms (shotgun or an air rifle (many of which are reguarded as firearms under UK law), getting a suppressor for it is easy. scot 14:16, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I tagged both articles mergewith. As far as I can tell, flash suppressors do not necessarily do anything for sound, and suppressors (silencers) usually reduce muzzle flash. -- Christopherlin 16:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
We just had a page revert,; someone at 67.189.43.119 added "(and incorrectly)" between "supressors, also commonly" and "known as silencers" in the intro sentence, and then User:Kintetsubuffalo reverted.
In my opinion, based on the professional literature and discussions with supressor users and manufacturers, is that unknown editor at 67.189.43.119 is correct. See for example the article section Supressor#Supressors and Silencers which I added on March 11 2006.
I am going to revert back to unknown-at-67.189.43.119's last edit with "(and incorrectly)" inserted, as I believe it to be an accurate contribution per above. Georgewilliamherbert 00:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I strongly prefer the term "silencer" over "suppressor" and I think I can back up my reasons for this. Firstly, Hiram Maxim called his invention a silencer. Secondly, the US Government (in the National Firearms Act) refers to this device as a "firearm silencer". Thirdly, the common usage among ordinary people -- not firearms specialists -- is strongly in favor of "silencer". Fourthly, the term "suppressor" without qualification is vague, since it could easily refer to a flash suppressor, or even possibly a recoil suppressor (i.e. muzzle brake). Tony Belding 19:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I actually would like to see the entire page renamed "Silencer (Firearm)" The original inventor used the term, the NFA of 1934 uses the term "muffler or silencer," the ATF Form 4 uses the term silencer, the NRA's firearm Glossary uses "Silencer", and the SAAMI Glossary has the term "Silencer." It seems Silencer IS the common term with it sometimes being called a "Supressor" or a "Sound Supressor." Reflux 21:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Google searches, April 10 2010: (all in quotes):
"gun silencer" - 42,600 "gun suppressor" - 5,310
"handgun silencer" - 38,600 "handgun suppressor" - 3,860
"firearm silencer" - 13,100 "firearm suppressor" - 7,950
"rifle silencer" - 102,000 "rifle suppressor" - 26,000
To me that strongly suggests that 'Silencer' is the more commmon term, Which is not to say that 'Suppressor' may not be the more correct term (after all, the device does not make the firearm 'silent'). My vote would be for 'Silencer', as the main purpose of the title is to help users find the article (I've NEVER heard it called a suppressor, to the best of my memory). If Professional usage of the terms is in favor of suppressor, this can be explained in the article. Happypoems ( talk) 18:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't figure out where an appropriate place for this photo would be in this article, but if you guys would like it:
I have a couple more photos from that range session if you'd like alternatives. -- UNHchabo 20:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The picture of the silencer for Hiram Maxim's patentg was an earlier design that made gases swirl around, but was actually later rejected by him for being too complex. AllStarZ 23:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I really don't see the point in this list. I'm sure there are tons more video games with suppressors than what are in the list. Perhaps there should be a category on it but I don't see any point in listing them in this article. -- Ortzinator 21:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking at removing this section for the same reason as the other, though I am unsure this time. So I'd like some opinions. -- Ortzinator 04:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"It is widely believed that suppressors can be improvised with any baffling material. Such attempts are only marginally useful, have a very short lifespan even if effective, and are often dangerous to the user.
...
The overwhelming majority of improvised suppressors popularized by movies and television (plastic bottles stuffed with insulation, potatoes, pillows, etc) do nothing to dampen a gun blast."
This is entirely untrue. According to Modern Firearm Silencers and Sporting And Tactical Silencers, Vol. 1 (Silencer History And Performance) (Paperback), amongst other resources. There are also several commonly found books on this subject, though I do not know if they are legitimate.
What is true is that many such suppressors do, usually, have a short lifespan.
Plastic bottles do not need to be stuffed with insulation. The escaping gases expand within them, and the outside material acts as a wipe. Small amounts of liquid within them may act as wet function. The disadvanges here are the size and temporary usage. (One popular example of this was a reverse screw on that fit on threaded barrels for these bottles, however this was banned -- one of the above sources cites this.)
One of the above sources also shows multiple forms of improvised suppressors. The design is simple enough that this is trivial to do. One example which was stated as being 'particuliarly and surprisingly effective' was a drug dealer's pvc model that used cardboard cut side by side for the baffling.
Never heard of potatoes being used for a suppressor. That would not work, theoretically. A two liter bottle was used in at least one movie (some Jim Belushi movie). I believe there was a milk carton full of milk used in another. Theoretically, that should dampen the sound. A pillow probably would work (ala, Godfather), but never heard of that tested.
I have personally tested the "2 liter bottle" suppression, with no "insulation", using a .22LR Semi-Automatic rifle, firing subsonic rounds. Mounted only with duct tape, I was able to go through an entire clip, and the only noise heard was the click of the action reloading. I did notice, however, that the bullets were seeming to be going in semi-random directions (either that or it was pieces of the bottle flying off) So, I decided that it was probably not a good idea to keep playing around with that, and stopped. It DID completely silence the muzzle blast however, so, the quoted information above is inaccurate.
:::Wow. Thanks for confessing to a federal crime on Wikipedia. And of course when you said "clip" you meant to say "magazine". —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.171.176.91 (
talk)
07:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
a .22 is a small caliber not capable of making a loud noise as far as i know but the potato silencer i have heard of in a film (south central) where he puts the potato on the barrel of the revolver and then shoots the "kansas city smack man" (pretty much a drug dealer) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.138.56.200 ( talk) 04:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Under " Legal Status, the article says:
In the United States, it is legal in most states for an individual to possess and use a suppressor
However, under Improvised, we see
Even suppressors intended for paintball markers, while providing no functionality for firearms, are illegal in the United States.
Can someone confirm one way or the other, and resolve the contradiction?
Septegram 14:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Can we have a reference to the government tests which demonstrated the uselessness of feline suppressors? — 84.65.71.50 22:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This article specifically talks about the history of suppressors, not silent weapons. Furthermore, there is confusion about the definition of "silent", as anything ranging from a throwing weapon like a slingshot or a knife is "silent". Removing section on Napoleon's encounters with air rifles, re-add at your own pleasure if you can find a better way to phrase it. 74.112.49.141 03:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The article states that suppressors are metallic, but this isn't necessarily true. Some, for example, are polymer. In fact, an awful lot of them are made of non-metallic polymers. MVMosin 02:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC) I also would like to note that the particular sentence I am referring to says that they are "generally" metallic and cylindrical. While I don't think the cylindrical thing will be argued at all, (unless we get in to geometric pedantry) this is a particularly bad way of making a statement for an enclopedia article without a specific source, not only to verify the statement itself, but to define for the reader what exactly "generally" is. MVMosin 02:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe "generally" is the right wording, but that is subjective to the meaning of generally. Generally could mean 50%, or 60%, 80% or as you said, 99.9%. Whether generally is right or not isn't the issue, but generally is a border-line weasel word and should either be defined or changed. MVMosin 00:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully no one minds but I changed the first photograph. Among other things it showed a bullet hole in the shooting bench ... ugh ... that's no good. -- Cortland 00:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
So guns can't be silenced by sticking a metal (or polymer) tube on the end. Well, how would you really silence one? Start with a .22, add a beefy supressor and sub-sonic ammo. Now, theoretically, you've removed the report completely (well, that's the idea), but we've still got the gun cycling. How can we shut that up? Metal on metal (ie the racking of the slide) is kind of loud, so we'd need to use a different material, possibally covering the metal (plastic or foam or something). I think that the firing pin striking the bullet is pretty much stuck making noise though. Unless we made a new way to discharge the bullet aside from firing pin (which would be theoreticly possible), there's no way to really stop that, eh? I want to hear your ideas. KungfuJoe1110 09:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
To begin with, the section on the reduction of recoil seems to start with some false assumptions, followed by generous rounding. Using the listed numbers of 1.6g of gas and a 4.0g bullet, and weighting the gas to account for double the velocity of the bullet, the gas accounts for 44% of momentum, which was rounded to 50% in the article. This would more accurately be rounded down to 40% and listed as "eliminates just over 40% of recoil". But I believe the main issue here is that this assumes that all of the gas is both trapped and completely stopped within the confines of the suppressor, which is not true. Gas present in the main bore of a suppressor is still at a high enough pressure to impart an additional 30-50 fps on average to a bullet (vs. 200 to 300 fps imparted by an equal length of barrel). Once the gas and bullet have exited the barrel, the only effects on the momentum of the gun moving backwards are the drag of the gas expanding past the baffles and the sustained pressure in the suppressor exiting forwards. Realistically, whatever slight forces might be applied to the recoil counteract each other, giving a zero net effect on the recoil. Silmenuquerna 19:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Just read the article and found no recent cross cuts of a modern suppressor, I think a photo like that would be a very useful supplement to the article.
I created and added three cross-section drawings of three widely differing suppressor types, all adapted from Poulsen's Vol 1. Input welcome. Georgewilliamherbert 08:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Excellent cross-sections! GMan552 11:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the comment about 45ACP being a good ammo choice is a bit disingenuous as 45ACP is pretty hard to suppress due to its large diameter, which allows the gases to escape very quickly. Obviously it is subsonic, which helps with the ballistic crack, but I'd like to see a reference to the fact that it is easily suppressed, and in fact quieter than a 9mm with supersonic ammo. (Obviously a 9mm with subsonic ammo will be quieter still, though less powerful). Thanks, Tmaull 20:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[[Image:]] I respect this article, but we have forgotten one of the more...conventional types of silencers. Soda bottles of just about any size over twenty ounces can be used as silencers but the side effect is only one time use(maybe two if your lucky) and the escaping gas could hurt you if it goes down the bottle and receeds back to your gun and over onto your hand. It doesnt COMPLETELY get rid of the noise but dully muffles it, its not as effective as other more advanced types of silencers(id hope to god not) but it can still be used as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.80.6 ( talk) 06:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Ive fired an MP5SD with an integral scilenceer all the oly noise it makes is when it ejects the case, in theory the scilencer does scilence because the bullet coming out the end of the gun does not make a sound, which is the point of the scilencer isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.167.124.191 ( talk) 02:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
welrods are almost entirely silent to the human ear.... —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
203.45.15.73 (
talk)
00:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm probably the only person in this world who absolutely -cannot- stand the sound the movie versions make. It drives me nuts and stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.149.132 ( talk) 23:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The sound of the firearm's action or hammer hitting the firing pin can be measured by dry firing the firearm, although repeated dry firing may eventually damage the pin. Aside the report, bolt action firearms only make the sound of the hammer colliding with the pin (or striker releasing from the sear, as the case may be), whereas auto-loading firearms also load the next cartridge into the weapon's chamber, and this process creates additional noise. In other words, a semi-automatic firearm will almost always be louder than a bolt-action firearm of the same cartridge size, for the following reasons:
i believe all that doesn't belong in the article. it's an interesting discussion, but there's nothing about suppressors. perhaps a new/sub section about "other noise from firearm operation" would be a more appropriate location? --- Jehan60188 ( talk) 14:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
We're talking probability of instant kill, and .22LR is most likely going to just cause bleedout (slow death, not instant) -- not always, but probably. Nothing in the paragraph is incorrect. .22LR generally does not have reliable lethality on a 180lb target at any range. That's why game hunters use .270/.308/30-06/30-30, and LEOs use .45/.38/.223/.308. The only thing worse than missing a target is hitting the target only for it to run off and die a slow and miserably painful death from bleedout or infection, or it living another 17 minutes to continue to empty clips in your direction. Sure you can 1s1k rabbits, foxes, and maybe small coyotes with a .22LR, but no one is storming a compound with one. Even worse, .22LR keyholes at 200+ yards in all but the best conditions. But don't take my word on the insufficiency of .22 caliber... take the [ FBI]'s:
Do suppressors prevent firing flashes? That should be mentioned in the article too since it's a vital point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.254.131.29 ( talk) 09:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
The Soviet Union (and later Russia) developed a small series of covert firearms that trapped the propelling gases inside the cartridge casing, eliminating a loud report without the need for a bulky suppressor. I believe that these weapons should be mentioned at least briefly under an Alternatives section or such, as they achieve the main goals of a suppressor though a different method. The OTs-38 Stechkin silent revolver listed in the See Also section is actually one of these very weapons. Gripen-delta ( talk) 10:49, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Hey folks! I just noticed this- five sources of noise are listed as "Action, Blast, Sonic Signature, Impact, Operator", and then the bullet-pointed list has Action, Muzzle, Sonic signature, Action, and Impact. It sounds like there are a few wires crossed in that- the first has "operator" listed (person grunting or yelling as they shoot? Dunno), and the second list has five items, but duplicates "action" (with the second instance being the cycling of the action to load a new round). Does it make sense to take out the "operator" item? Nursebootsy ( talk) 02:19, 19 January 2010 (UTC)Nursebootsy, 1-18-10
In popular culture (especially movies and books), screw-on silencers are quite common, but I have heard that in reality they are very rare, with other mechanisms or even permanent attachment being far more common. Could somebody more familiar with them add find some source and add information about this to the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.161.93 ( talk) 22:36, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
I came to this article hoping to learn about method of attachment --- something which has been a total mystery to me every since I first wondered about it. There is no substantial information on this in the article and essentially none on this Talk page. Can somebody please provide an explanation? --- Dagme ( talk) 06:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
User:Georgewilliamherbert regarding change 419067725 in Suppressor#Other_advantages: If Paulson lists 15% that must be in reference to pistol calibers with relatively heavy bullets (which are popularly used for suppressed pistols and subguns since they're subsonic). However there is no question that with a rifle caliber the "rocket-effect" recoil from propellant leaving the muzzle constitutes 30-50% of the recoil impulse. This is basic physics -- propellant mass times velocity squared = recoil energy (and note that propellant muzzle velocity is typically at least twice the muzzle velocity of the projectile). Any decent suppressor converts the vast majority of this propellant kinetic energy into heat. So for rifles, where recoil is a significant factor, the actual recoil impulse is reduced by around 40%, +/- depending on the ratio of propellant to bullet mass. Anyone who has shot a high-powered rifle with and without a suppressor can confirm felt recoil is reduced by about half with the can attached. Dbooksta ( talk) 23:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
The first picture's caption incorrectly referred to the last handgun in the photograph as the SIG P226 R. The handgun is actually a SIG Mosquito, which is smaller, has an external safety, and is chambered for .22lr. Zenmastervex ( talk) 07:59, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Do they exist?
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The Insultingly Stupid Movie Physics page has a section on gun silencers that suggests the line in this article "The overall effect of a good silencer can be dramatic, up to the point where the only audible noise is the mechanical parts of the gun moving." is woefully incorrect. But I'm no gun buff, so I don't want to unilaterally change the article. Anyone out there with real silencer experience who can vouch one way or the other? Bryan 06:19, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I find this slightly misleading:
> In some nations, such as England or Finland, they are practically unregulated and may be bought "over the counter" in retail stores.
as you cannot buy hand-guns under *any* circumstances in England and the UK. This negates the need for supressor regulation as suppressors are next to useless there. However, I'm not quite sure what one could put instead. Hmmm... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indiedan ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 11 March 2005 (UTC)
I can't find any reference in the Geneva or Hauge conventions prohibiting the use of suppressed firearms. I'll search a bit more, then I'm yanking the bit about them being prohibited in warfare until someone comes up with a solid reference. scot 03:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
> "The MP5 and Mark 23 chamber 9 mm Luger and .45 ACP rounds, respectively. Both of these ammunition types have subsonic muzzle velocities" - Most 9mm rounds are NOT subsonic. Geoff B 20:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
That's for law enforcement use, yep, but the poor armour penetration and less effective terminal ballistics means it's not the usual round for military use. Besides, the issue is that the article states that 9mm is subsonic, full stop. Geoff B 06:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed this sentence from the end of the article: "Chinese communists didn't think much of the POW-Status, anyhow." First of all, it seemed utterly unrelated to its context. Second, it sounds like a political smear. The person who contributed it also mentioned "Bonaparte Napoleon" and said "During the late 1950's the PLA has procured...." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivacissamamente ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 23 March 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't seem like an POW or opinion to me. It's written pretty "conversationly"-like, but, hey, it's an edit by a human, allright. We tend to do that - gettin' personal. Anyhows; If it were a fact that Chinese 'Communists' (I say that, 'cuz I don't believe they were actually any genuine) or more like Socialists didn't ipso factos think of the POW-Status in truth, then it's a fact - and an article needs facts if it's relevant, so why not keep it there and/or add it back? This also goes for PLA's "procuration" in the 50's. Just let it go. No need to steam. And what's that with Bonaparte Napoleon?- OleMurder 18:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
- The story about Napoleon vs. silenced firearm is found in a german article by K. Maleyka in 1937, saying that the Girandoni reservoir air rifle saw action against Napoleon and that he issued orders for the execution of Austrian soldiers found carrying airguns.
- BTW the reservoir airgun used by Lewis & Clark expedition has been found and identified in April 2005! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.48.242 ( talk) 15:53, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I don't know which one of these is right but I know they can't both be. From the top: The near silent suppressed firearms seen in movies and television is pure fabrication; the most effective suppressors at most reduce sound to the level of a cough. Later on: Guns with the least 'leakage' are best, so a sealed breech (e.g. bolt action) is preferable and can be suppressed to the point that it makes only a "click" as the firing pin or hammer hits the primer. Which one is correct? Triddle 19:01, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
How much weapons loose on its effectivnes by puting a suppressor?
After dB ratings and comparable non-firearm results were added to the article, some people keep adding this quote: "However, because those are sources of continuous noise, the human ear perceives them as harsher and louder than a brief gunshot despite their similar meter readings."
New to this, so if I don't obey the Wikipedia protocol, forgive me. The definitions of firearm actions are very inaccurate in this section: For instance, you described "single action" as only producing the sound of a hammer hitting the firing pin, while double action cycles the next round. In fact, single and double action refer only to trigger mechanisms, and have nothing to do with cycle action. A double action pistol cocks the hammer and drops it with each pull of the trigger- this is how most modern revolvers work, and many automatics (including the Glock, though that is a striker instead of a hammer, the same concept applies). Single action firearms will only fire when the hammer is already cocked, as the trigger only drops the hammer. This is most typical of old revolvers (which had to be manually cocked before each shot) and the 1911 automatic design, which is carried with the hammer back and resets the hammer whenever it cycles. The vast majority of modern firearms are a combination which may be fired double action but will cock the hammer when they cycle, resulting in single action. So, both single and double action automatics eject the old cartridge and cycle a new round into the chamber with each shot, and yes, it's very loud, even with a suppressor. And correct, it is not as loud as the report of even a suppressed weapon. You also stated that dry firing will damage the firing pin. This is a minor quibble, but that's not true--modern firearms will not be damaged at all by dry firing. Next point- you said "the sound of bolt or hammer hitting the firing pin;" the bolt is a part on a rifle, which typically contains a striker. No bolt hits a firing pin in any firearm. Only a hammer hits, or a striker acts as both "hammer" (by releasing tension) and firing pin by striking the primer of a round. There is no bolt on a magazine fed handgun, only rifles; automatic handguns have a part called a "slide" which contains the barrel, hammer or striker, firing pin, chamber, and other upper parts of the weapon, and which cycles to eject an old cartridge and load another. Most modern automatic handguns have hammers, so stating "the sound of the bolt (magazine fed) or hammer (revolver)..." is inaccurate. Finally, on a revolver a new round is cycled as the trigger is pulled and before the hammer drops, and it is usually very quiet (quieter than the impact of the hammer on the firing pin), unlike the very fast and violent cycling of an automatic (which is MUCH louder than the hammer). Since it is before the shot and quiet, it is not of great concern for a suppressed firearm. I would do these edits myself, but never having done so I would rather that someone who knows the style and is much more familiar with modern firearm actions or someone who read up on revolvers/automatics and single action/double action edited the section to be accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.224.216 ( talk) 21:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
See this.
While firearms are hard to get (And handguns impossible, to the extent the British Olympic pistol team trains in France) if you have one of the lesser regulated firearms (shotgun or an air rifle (many of which are reguarded as firearms under UK law), getting a suppressor for it is easy. scot 14:16, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I tagged both articles mergewith. As far as I can tell, flash suppressors do not necessarily do anything for sound, and suppressors (silencers) usually reduce muzzle flash. -- Christopherlin 16:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
We just had a page revert,; someone at 67.189.43.119 added "(and incorrectly)" between "supressors, also commonly" and "known as silencers" in the intro sentence, and then User:Kintetsubuffalo reverted.
In my opinion, based on the professional literature and discussions with supressor users and manufacturers, is that unknown editor at 67.189.43.119 is correct. See for example the article section Supressor#Supressors and Silencers which I added on March 11 2006.
I am going to revert back to unknown-at-67.189.43.119's last edit with "(and incorrectly)" inserted, as I believe it to be an accurate contribution per above. Georgewilliamherbert 00:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I strongly prefer the term "silencer" over "suppressor" and I think I can back up my reasons for this. Firstly, Hiram Maxim called his invention a silencer. Secondly, the US Government (in the National Firearms Act) refers to this device as a "firearm silencer". Thirdly, the common usage among ordinary people -- not firearms specialists -- is strongly in favor of "silencer". Fourthly, the term "suppressor" without qualification is vague, since it could easily refer to a flash suppressor, or even possibly a recoil suppressor (i.e. muzzle brake). Tony Belding 19:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I actually would like to see the entire page renamed "Silencer (Firearm)" The original inventor used the term, the NFA of 1934 uses the term "muffler or silencer," the ATF Form 4 uses the term silencer, the NRA's firearm Glossary uses "Silencer", and the SAAMI Glossary has the term "Silencer." It seems Silencer IS the common term with it sometimes being called a "Supressor" or a "Sound Supressor." Reflux 21:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Google searches, April 10 2010: (all in quotes):
"gun silencer" - 42,600 "gun suppressor" - 5,310
"handgun silencer" - 38,600 "handgun suppressor" - 3,860
"firearm silencer" - 13,100 "firearm suppressor" - 7,950
"rifle silencer" - 102,000 "rifle suppressor" - 26,000
To me that strongly suggests that 'Silencer' is the more commmon term, Which is not to say that 'Suppressor' may not be the more correct term (after all, the device does not make the firearm 'silent'). My vote would be for 'Silencer', as the main purpose of the title is to help users find the article (I've NEVER heard it called a suppressor, to the best of my memory). If Professional usage of the terms is in favor of suppressor, this can be explained in the article. Happypoems ( talk) 18:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't figure out where an appropriate place for this photo would be in this article, but if you guys would like it:
I have a couple more photos from that range session if you'd like alternatives. -- UNHchabo 20:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The picture of the silencer for Hiram Maxim's patentg was an earlier design that made gases swirl around, but was actually later rejected by him for being too complex. AllStarZ 23:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I really don't see the point in this list. I'm sure there are tons more video games with suppressors than what are in the list. Perhaps there should be a category on it but I don't see any point in listing them in this article. -- Ortzinator 21:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking at removing this section for the same reason as the other, though I am unsure this time. So I'd like some opinions. -- Ortzinator 04:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
"It is widely believed that suppressors can be improvised with any baffling material. Such attempts are only marginally useful, have a very short lifespan even if effective, and are often dangerous to the user.
...
The overwhelming majority of improvised suppressors popularized by movies and television (plastic bottles stuffed with insulation, potatoes, pillows, etc) do nothing to dampen a gun blast."
This is entirely untrue. According to Modern Firearm Silencers and Sporting And Tactical Silencers, Vol. 1 (Silencer History And Performance) (Paperback), amongst other resources. There are also several commonly found books on this subject, though I do not know if they are legitimate.
What is true is that many such suppressors do, usually, have a short lifespan.
Plastic bottles do not need to be stuffed with insulation. The escaping gases expand within them, and the outside material acts as a wipe. Small amounts of liquid within them may act as wet function. The disadvanges here are the size and temporary usage. (One popular example of this was a reverse screw on that fit on threaded barrels for these bottles, however this was banned -- one of the above sources cites this.)
One of the above sources also shows multiple forms of improvised suppressors. The design is simple enough that this is trivial to do. One example which was stated as being 'particuliarly and surprisingly effective' was a drug dealer's pvc model that used cardboard cut side by side for the baffling.
Never heard of potatoes being used for a suppressor. That would not work, theoretically. A two liter bottle was used in at least one movie (some Jim Belushi movie). I believe there was a milk carton full of milk used in another. Theoretically, that should dampen the sound. A pillow probably would work (ala, Godfather), but never heard of that tested.
I have personally tested the "2 liter bottle" suppression, with no "insulation", using a .22LR Semi-Automatic rifle, firing subsonic rounds. Mounted only with duct tape, I was able to go through an entire clip, and the only noise heard was the click of the action reloading. I did notice, however, that the bullets were seeming to be going in semi-random directions (either that or it was pieces of the bottle flying off) So, I decided that it was probably not a good idea to keep playing around with that, and stopped. It DID completely silence the muzzle blast however, so, the quoted information above is inaccurate.
:::Wow. Thanks for confessing to a federal crime on Wikipedia. And of course when you said "clip" you meant to say "magazine". —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
69.171.176.91 (
talk)
07:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
a .22 is a small caliber not capable of making a loud noise as far as i know but the potato silencer i have heard of in a film (south central) where he puts the potato on the barrel of the revolver and then shoots the "kansas city smack man" (pretty much a drug dealer) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.138.56.200 ( talk) 04:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Under " Legal Status, the article says:
In the United States, it is legal in most states for an individual to possess and use a suppressor
However, under Improvised, we see
Even suppressors intended for paintball markers, while providing no functionality for firearms, are illegal in the United States.
Can someone confirm one way or the other, and resolve the contradiction?
Septegram 14:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Can we have a reference to the government tests which demonstrated the uselessness of feline suppressors? — 84.65.71.50 22:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This article specifically talks about the history of suppressors, not silent weapons. Furthermore, there is confusion about the definition of "silent", as anything ranging from a throwing weapon like a slingshot or a knife is "silent". Removing section on Napoleon's encounters with air rifles, re-add at your own pleasure if you can find a better way to phrase it. 74.112.49.141 03:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The article states that suppressors are metallic, but this isn't necessarily true. Some, for example, are polymer. In fact, an awful lot of them are made of non-metallic polymers. MVMosin 02:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC) I also would like to note that the particular sentence I am referring to says that they are "generally" metallic and cylindrical. While I don't think the cylindrical thing will be argued at all, (unless we get in to geometric pedantry) this is a particularly bad way of making a statement for an enclopedia article without a specific source, not only to verify the statement itself, but to define for the reader what exactly "generally" is. MVMosin 02:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe "generally" is the right wording, but that is subjective to the meaning of generally. Generally could mean 50%, or 60%, 80% or as you said, 99.9%. Whether generally is right or not isn't the issue, but generally is a border-line weasel word and should either be defined or changed. MVMosin 00:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully no one minds but I changed the first photograph. Among other things it showed a bullet hole in the shooting bench ... ugh ... that's no good. -- Cortland 00:23, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
So guns can't be silenced by sticking a metal (or polymer) tube on the end. Well, how would you really silence one? Start with a .22, add a beefy supressor and sub-sonic ammo. Now, theoretically, you've removed the report completely (well, that's the idea), but we've still got the gun cycling. How can we shut that up? Metal on metal (ie the racking of the slide) is kind of loud, so we'd need to use a different material, possibally covering the metal (plastic or foam or something). I think that the firing pin striking the bullet is pretty much stuck making noise though. Unless we made a new way to discharge the bullet aside from firing pin (which would be theoreticly possible), there's no way to really stop that, eh? I want to hear your ideas. KungfuJoe1110 09:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
To begin with, the section on the reduction of recoil seems to start with some false assumptions, followed by generous rounding. Using the listed numbers of 1.6g of gas and a 4.0g bullet, and weighting the gas to account for double the velocity of the bullet, the gas accounts for 44% of momentum, which was rounded to 50% in the article. This would more accurately be rounded down to 40% and listed as "eliminates just over 40% of recoil". But I believe the main issue here is that this assumes that all of the gas is both trapped and completely stopped within the confines of the suppressor, which is not true. Gas present in the main bore of a suppressor is still at a high enough pressure to impart an additional 30-50 fps on average to a bullet (vs. 200 to 300 fps imparted by an equal length of barrel). Once the gas and bullet have exited the barrel, the only effects on the momentum of the gun moving backwards are the drag of the gas expanding past the baffles and the sustained pressure in the suppressor exiting forwards. Realistically, whatever slight forces might be applied to the recoil counteract each other, giving a zero net effect on the recoil. Silmenuquerna 19:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Just read the article and found no recent cross cuts of a modern suppressor, I think a photo like that would be a very useful supplement to the article.
I created and added three cross-section drawings of three widely differing suppressor types, all adapted from Poulsen's Vol 1. Input welcome. Georgewilliamherbert 08:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Excellent cross-sections! GMan552 11:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the comment about 45ACP being a good ammo choice is a bit disingenuous as 45ACP is pretty hard to suppress due to its large diameter, which allows the gases to escape very quickly. Obviously it is subsonic, which helps with the ballistic crack, but I'd like to see a reference to the fact that it is easily suppressed, and in fact quieter than a 9mm with supersonic ammo. (Obviously a 9mm with subsonic ammo will be quieter still, though less powerful). Thanks, Tmaull 20:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[[Image:]] I respect this article, but we have forgotten one of the more...conventional types of silencers. Soda bottles of just about any size over twenty ounces can be used as silencers but the side effect is only one time use(maybe two if your lucky) and the escaping gas could hurt you if it goes down the bottle and receeds back to your gun and over onto your hand. It doesnt COMPLETELY get rid of the noise but dully muffles it, its not as effective as other more advanced types of silencers(id hope to god not) but it can still be used as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.164.80.6 ( talk) 06:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Ive fired an MP5SD with an integral scilenceer all the oly noise it makes is when it ejects the case, in theory the scilencer does scilence because the bullet coming out the end of the gun does not make a sound, which is the point of the scilencer isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.167.124.191 ( talk) 02:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
welrods are almost entirely silent to the human ear.... —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
203.45.15.73 (
talk)
00:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm probably the only person in this world who absolutely -cannot- stand the sound the movie versions make. It drives me nuts and stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.149.132 ( talk) 23:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The sound of the firearm's action or hammer hitting the firing pin can be measured by dry firing the firearm, although repeated dry firing may eventually damage the pin. Aside the report, bolt action firearms only make the sound of the hammer colliding with the pin (or striker releasing from the sear, as the case may be), whereas auto-loading firearms also load the next cartridge into the weapon's chamber, and this process creates additional noise. In other words, a semi-automatic firearm will almost always be louder than a bolt-action firearm of the same cartridge size, for the following reasons:
i believe all that doesn't belong in the article. it's an interesting discussion, but there's nothing about suppressors. perhaps a new/sub section about "other noise from firearm operation" would be a more appropriate location? --- Jehan60188 ( talk) 14:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
We're talking probability of instant kill, and .22LR is most likely going to just cause bleedout (slow death, not instant) -- not always, but probably. Nothing in the paragraph is incorrect. .22LR generally does not have reliable lethality on a 180lb target at any range. That's why game hunters use .270/.308/30-06/30-30, and LEOs use .45/.38/.223/.308. The only thing worse than missing a target is hitting the target only for it to run off and die a slow and miserably painful death from bleedout or infection, or it living another 17 minutes to continue to empty clips in your direction. Sure you can 1s1k rabbits, foxes, and maybe small coyotes with a .22LR, but no one is storming a compound with one. Even worse, .22LR keyholes at 200+ yards in all but the best conditions. But don't take my word on the insufficiency of .22 caliber... take the [ FBI]'s:
Do suppressors prevent firing flashes? That should be mentioned in the article too since it's a vital point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.254.131.29 ( talk) 09:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
The Soviet Union (and later Russia) developed a small series of covert firearms that trapped the propelling gases inside the cartridge casing, eliminating a loud report without the need for a bulky suppressor. I believe that these weapons should be mentioned at least briefly under an Alternatives section or such, as they achieve the main goals of a suppressor though a different method. The OTs-38 Stechkin silent revolver listed in the See Also section is actually one of these very weapons. Gripen-delta ( talk) 10:49, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Hey folks! I just noticed this- five sources of noise are listed as "Action, Blast, Sonic Signature, Impact, Operator", and then the bullet-pointed list has Action, Muzzle, Sonic signature, Action, and Impact. It sounds like there are a few wires crossed in that- the first has "operator" listed (person grunting or yelling as they shoot? Dunno), and the second list has five items, but duplicates "action" (with the second instance being the cycling of the action to load a new round). Does it make sense to take out the "operator" item? Nursebootsy ( talk) 02:19, 19 January 2010 (UTC)Nursebootsy, 1-18-10
In popular culture (especially movies and books), screw-on silencers are quite common, but I have heard that in reality they are very rare, with other mechanisms or even permanent attachment being far more common. Could somebody more familiar with them add find some source and add information about this to the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.161.93 ( talk) 22:36, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
I came to this article hoping to learn about method of attachment --- something which has been a total mystery to me every since I first wondered about it. There is no substantial information on this in the article and essentially none on this Talk page. Can somebody please provide an explanation? --- Dagme ( talk) 06:48, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
User:Georgewilliamherbert regarding change 419067725 in Suppressor#Other_advantages: If Paulson lists 15% that must be in reference to pistol calibers with relatively heavy bullets (which are popularly used for suppressed pistols and subguns since they're subsonic). However there is no question that with a rifle caliber the "rocket-effect" recoil from propellant leaving the muzzle constitutes 30-50% of the recoil impulse. This is basic physics -- propellant mass times velocity squared = recoil energy (and note that propellant muzzle velocity is typically at least twice the muzzle velocity of the projectile). Any decent suppressor converts the vast majority of this propellant kinetic energy into heat. So for rifles, where recoil is a significant factor, the actual recoil impulse is reduced by around 40%, +/- depending on the ratio of propellant to bullet mass. Anyone who has shot a high-powered rifle with and without a suppressor can confirm felt recoil is reduced by about half with the can attached. Dbooksta ( talk) 23:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
The first picture's caption incorrectly referred to the last handgun in the photograph as the SIG P226 R. The handgun is actually a SIG Mosquito, which is smaller, has an external safety, and is chambered for .22lr. Zenmastervex ( talk) 07:59, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Do they exist?