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To a native English speaker, who I am inclined to believe is the target audience for this encyclopedia, this article almost immediately stands out as contrived. The article repeats itself numerous times, and is FULL of comma splices of the sort an American or British schoolchild would make before advancing to high school. The article is practically unreadable because of the poor organization of its content, and the repetitive nature of that jumbled content. Numerous instances of time-consuming copyediting are needed, which I will undertake soon.
To any person with a knowledge of composers and the pecking order of their importance, the article immediately stands out as a laughably amateurish and biased hagiography. The author (for there certainly and obviously is one primary author) has done Mr. Thalberg a great service, of which Thalberg would most certainly be proud. Utterly ridiculous in tenor, it is notable that a quick "Find" command in one's browser results in "over 100 results" (sic) for the search term "Liszt;" this is an unfortunate and glaring tell-tale sign of the author's intent (by comparison, a similar search of the Franz Liszt article returns "4 results"). Also notable is the fact that this article is quite a bit longer than the articles for Liszt, Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, et al.
Liszt apparently said that Thalberg's music would be all but forgotten; and in 2009 the instances of performance, recording, and distribution of Thalberg recordings are rare indeed. Why, then must the casual encyclopedia reader be subjected to an entire article of one author's strange preoccupation with a Liszt-inferiority complex? The Liszt article can be written with either no mention of Thalberg or a passing mention; however this particular Thalberg article written in this particular peculiar way would hardly exist if it weren't for Mr. Liszt.
There are relatively few standalone achievements of Mr. Thalberg to speak of, and this article does Thalberg's actual achievements a great disservice by discouraging reading with such length disproportionate to his accomplishments, and with such single-minded repetitiveness. Also, the obsessive mention of Franz Liszt is embarrassing and serves as a continual reminder to any casual reader that he or she is in fact, reading an encyclopedia on the internet that anyone can edit. The repeated splicing of commas is the icing on the amateur cake, so to speak, and the entire thing needs to be remanded and edited, and in the meantime until these changes are affected, the article should certainly be tagged.
It is over-cited. The author wants to make a serious point here.
Unfortunately, because Mr. Thalberg is infrequently mentioned in modern times, this sort of travesty can take place relatively unnoticed and undisturbed for months; this 'dusty' Wikipedia article, as it were, is a biased pet-project of which, if a comparable mess were made of Sergei Rachmaninov's or one of the above-mentioned and frequently-looked-up composers' pages, would not stand very long. And so tag & edit I shall... User:Blue Alert 19 February 2009
this article: "Until the end of Liszt's stay in Vienna Thalberg did not perform at all. Nevertheless, he was still praised. In a review of Liszt's own charity concert on April 18, 1838, for example, he was described as the winner of the "piano duel" of spring 1837 in Paris." while dana gooley's liszt the virtuoso: "Sigismund Thalberg, a pianist of uncertain origins – though reputedly of noble but illegitimate birth – burst on the Paris scene at the end of 1835 and was quickly hailed in some quarters as the world’s foremost piano virtuoso. Liszt, then in Geneva with the Countess Marie d’Agoult, probably had not yet heard Thalberg play, but responded all the same with a long and damaging article about his compositions in the Paris Revue et gazette musicale. Thus began a rivalry, much inflamed by the press, that culminated in the duel staged in 1837 by the Princess Belgiojoso. Its outcome has been variously assessed, but what everyone remembered was the Princess’s airy bon mot, “Thalberg is the first pianist in the world; Liszt is the only one”." 86.108.49.61 ( talk) 16:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a minor issue--I distinctly remember reading somewhere (not in Alan Walker) that the infamous review of Thalberg's compositions by Monsieur Liszt was most likely actually written by Marie d'Agoult. Have you read anything to support that theory? K. Lásztocska 12:45, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Scholar,
Surely someone so intelligent and educated as yourself can tone down the hagiographic text a little? This is a very biased portrait of Thalberg and needs to be thoroughly cited and verified before I can even think about finishing touches like grammar and style. For example, did you really need to write "He was a God when sitting at the piano"? This entire article is currently written in a very unencyclopedic style and I would urge you to make an effort to improve that.
Kind regards, K. Lásztocska 12:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Greetings. 80.145.39.246 17:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification--as it was previously, it was unclear whether or not Schumann had said that or if it was just a statement by the article's author. I put it in quotation marks to avoid such confusion in the future. K. Lásztocska 17:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I actually don't mind to be criticized, but it does not make sense when it is overdone. When, for example, I wrote, Liszt was feeling as if he was himself the exiled Napoleon, it is exactly this which he wrote in his letter to d'Agoult from April 29, 1836. The “missing” reference had therefore already been given. Another example is Clara Wieck's diary. Everything I wrote is to be read there. The fact, that Liszt claimed, all of Thalberg's music was completely worthless, is known by anyone who read his review. It is written in explicit words there. The fact, that Liszt, for the purpose of gaining applause from his audience, distributed free tickets, might be shocking for you at first sight. But it is quite well known from his own letters. In similar ways I could comment all of the rest of it. I took everything from sources which are not disputable. To this, everything I wrote has already been published in books and essays, which can be taken as WikiSources, thereby obeying the strictest rules. In the still missing parts of “Thalberg’s tours” you will see, by the way, that until now it is only an impression of the beginning of his career which I could give. During the following years, Thalberg was still increasing. As a general comment, I’d like to say: “Be welcome in the 21th centuries musicology!” 80.144.163.190 18:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Can't believe I'm breaking my wikibreak already....curse my insatiable curiosity, I just HAD to log on and check my messages....however, it may be a good thing that I did that, since we appear to have a major misunderstanding here.
I can't help but notice, Anonymous Scholar, that you have reverted all your work back to the article's earlier and much inferior form. If I interpret your latest message on my talk page correctly, you were offended by the tags I slapped all over the article; noticing that I had not slapped any tags on the old version, you concluded that I must have thought the earlier version was already perfect. I assure you that is not the case: the only reason I never tagged the old version was simply that I never bothered to read it. (Thalberg is usually not at the forefront of my mind.)
I certainly meant you no personal offense by adding those tags--I had thought you wanted my professional criticism of your work so we could collaborate on writing a good article. However, after thinking about it, I suppose I laid it on pretty thick, for which I apologize. My bigger miscalculation, however, may have been my timing: when I added those tags, the article was clearly still under construction and very much a work in progress, so to suddenly jump in in the midst of your work with loads of tags and criticism may have been unfair and unhelpful on my part. (I'm reminded of a rather frightening former violin teacher of mine, who was in the unfortunate habit of berating me and criticizing me quite viciously on account of my habitual failure to fully master a difficult Paganini caprice or Brahms sonata in less than a week.) I certainly wouldn't appreciate being treated that way, and I sincerely apologize for treating you that way. I meant no offense or discouragement at all, and I encourage you to re-instate your work-in-progress text (senza tags) and continue working on it. (One tag I would suggest, however, is {{Underconstruction}}!)
As soon as I post this message I will be logging off and taking my necessary wikibreak--I should be back in a week or two. By then, perhaps you will have finished your work on the Thalberg article and I can have a look at it then (and I will try to be a bit more tactful with my criticism.) Apologies again for any untoward rudeness, and my best wishes. K. Lásztocska 22:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I put the first three of my chapters back to the Thalberg article. In comparison with their former versions, I added some details as well as many sources and references. The sources are in the footnotes quoted with short titles, the meaning of which will be clear after the complete bibliography has been added. According to my own taste, it is somewhat overdone, not to say very unusual, to give so many references to an encyclopaedia article, but it will be your taste which will count in the end. So, please have a look at it and tell me, of which kinds your impressions are. In one case I kept the "citation needed" hint. The reference can be found in the Leipziger Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung, but I had not enough time to search for it. A further exception is my statement, Thalberg's "Moise" fantasy was one of the most famous concert pieces of the 19th century, which has been left without source. Wanting to give a reference for that, would be ridiculous (I'm sorry for it.) since it is a fact which is known by everyone with knowledge of 19th century's piano music. I could as well try to give a reference in order to prove that Clementi was a famous composer.
Hi guys. Smerus, as I understood my earlier communications with him, the anonymous scholar agreed to let me and others fix his English, once he had finished writing all he could. I might be misinterpreting something, but I get the impression it annoys him when we interrupt his train of thought with linguistic issues and fact tags.
As for the Moise fantasy--yes, people who are intimately familiar with the history of 19th-century piano music will know it was very popular, but most people, sadly, aren't all that familiar with the history of 19th-century piano music. (And what is Wikipedia's job if not to inform?) ;-) In any event, even though it is not a very controversial statement, it still needs a citation--that's just common practice. K. Lásztocska 21:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a problem concerning Thalberg's name. I recently found that in English publications he is rather often called "Sigismund" instead of "Sigismond". An example is the dissertation of Ian Glenn Hominick. There is even an American "Sigismund Thalberg Society", founded by Daniel L. Hitchcock. (No, he is not the Hitchcock. That Hitchcock was working with Irving Thalberg.) On the other hand, in Gooley's The Virtuoso Liszt, written in Cambridge, Thalberg is called "Sigismond". It therefore seems that he is "Sigismund" in America and "Sigismond" in Great Britain. Since his true name was actually "Sigismund", it might be the best solution when we take this version for our article too. What do you think about it? 80.144.155.250 09:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Scholar—would it be fine if I moved the article to Sigismund Thalberg? — $PЯINGεrαgђ 01:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
It will be a good idea to put some more images to the article. In order to find them, take the "Biography" link at the article's end. Scrolling down, at the bottom left edge a symbol like a house can be seen. Clicking at that leads to a page of an Italian research centre. There is at left a list, including an entry "Albumfoto". The album includes five images of Thalberg as well as an image of his death mask. (The image "Thalberg 57 years old" is, in fact, from about 1860.) The images can be extracted and afterwards used. The only one, beeing in private posession, is apparently the image of the death mask. Unfortunately, I have no experience of such things until now. Perhaps you can help me?
To this comes a further problem of which I don't know how to solve it. I need examples from printed music, especially from Thalberg's Moise-fantasy. The music can be taken as pdf-score from the internet. It should be possible to extract a small part of some bars and turn it into jpg. The image should be placed not left nor right, but more in the middle, so that it is in the article looking as in the page of a book. The effect would undoubtedly be great. A single line from the Moise-fantasy as well as from the Waltzes op.47 will do. 80.145.23.122 11:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Can't help with the quote, but I'm pretty sure I can help with the excerpts from the printed music (I can download it, open the window, take a screen capture, then fiddle around a bit in Photoshop to get a jpg image of the notation.) Can you please direct me to the best place to download the music? K. Lásztocska Review me? 19:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
There is clearly a vast wealth of information contained in this article. My concern, however, is the appropriateness of the current style to the medium in which we present it. This should be an encyclopedia entry, and as such should be as clear and concise as possible. Remember we are primarily writing for a general audience of interested laymen. I am of the opinion that there is much here that would be more appropriate in an academic journal, not an encyclopedia.
For example, the section about Thalberg's parentage, his parents' probable identities, and their family histories, is quite interesting but in this context, it is somewhat gratuitous. Is it really all that important to go into such detail about the Thalberg family history in an article whose primary function should be to provide an accurate, clear and concise account of who Thalberg was, what he did, and what his legacy was?
I am not concerned with the article's length, I'm concerned with its coherence. In its present state it tends to ramble on and occasionally get lost in side-notes and tangents. I will certainly make every effort to find a way to tighten it up without removing any pertinent information. I have to warn you though, it may turn out that for the sake of the article, some superfluous sections will need to be removed. (If it comes to that, please don't take it personally.)
I will look at it more closely over the weekend (no more time today for such a big project.) Until then, best wishes, K. Lásztocska Review me? 19:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Good grief. Sorry for trying. You know what? If you don't want my help, don't ask for it. If you don't want me to try reworking the style into something a bit more readable (and more in tune with general Wikipedia style guidelines) then pray tell, what DO you want me to do? K. Lásztocska Review me? 13:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Technically, adding himself to the bibliography is fine if it's a published work from a reliable source (academic journal, etc.) Interesting about Walker though. ;-) K. Lásztocska Review me? 15:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
It has unfortunately turned out, that the editor K. Lásztocska has shown strong attempts to systematically delete all sources in which a single artist of the 19th century, Franz Liszt, is not recognized as Hungarian and not worshipped as hero. Since it is obvious that such kind of attitude has nothing to do with neutrality of point of view and is therefore absolutely intolerable in an encyclopaedia project, I may very urgently ask that editor, to radically change her behaviour. For the moment, I put chapter 1.4.5 to a reasonable state again. 80.144.180.122 15:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
At first, I must say, thank you very much for your collaboration and your patience towards some of my eccentricities. Nevertheless, the article can, without doubt, still be improved. The question whether it is bloated or not, will be hard to decide and in the end depend on the readers taste. Speaking for myself, I would have been very happy to get such a source when writing my thesis about Liszt. There is nearly no Thalberg research at all, so that I had to find out nearly everything for myself. (Regarding that Italian page, it says much that no Italian article about Thalberg exists.) The thesis by Hominick is not a masterwork, and especially the part about Thalberg’s European concert career includes many mistakes. The articles in the "New Musical Grove" and the new "Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart" are even worse. It was therefore my aim, to do a better thing, writing an article, which can be used as reliable scholarly source. But it must, of course, also be readable for casual users of Wikipedia. The article's size can be reduced by moving the complete work list to a special page, by the way. It has been done in the same way in the (featured) article about Lutoslawski.
At moment, the best I can do, is giving some comments to the article’s present form. The last paragraph of chapter 1.1 can probably be deleted. It was my idea, at first to show the family Dietrichstein as old Austrian nobility family (Following the social logic of those times, an old family had a very high rank.), at second to give more evidence for a connection between the names Dietrichstein and Thalberg, and at third to give a hint for an early connection between family Dietrichstein and Liszt. Looking at the announcement of Liszt's famous "Weihekuss"-concert on April 13, 1823, in Vienna, it is to be read that the concert was given "mit hoher Bewilligung" ("with high permission"). Since Moritz von Dietrichstein was "Musikgraf", it had been him who was responsible for that permission. It might have been exactly this reason for which his brother visited a lesson of the boy Liszt with Salieri. But I must admit that the traces are rather hidden, and it would not change much if the paragraph was missing.
At the end of the forth paragraph of chapter 1.4.4, the sentence "In short, according to Fétis he was, harmonically Fétis and ..." sounds a bit unpolished for my taste, and it is because of the twofold "Fétis". In fact, the statement, Liszt was harmonically Fétis and pianistically Thalberg, is a summary of the previous ones. It should therefore be sufficient, to write "In short, he was harmonically Fétis ...". Taking this form, there is still the problem that this sentence as well as the following one is commencing with "In". For avoiding this, I suggest "He was, in short, harmonically Fétis ...".
At the end of the sixth paragraph everything had been taken from Clara Schumann's diary entry. It should therefore be superfluous, repeating in every single sentence that only her opinions are told. (Clara's opinions were shared in all Europe by everyone who wrote about Thalberg.) In order to solve the problem, I put a direct quotation instead. (I’m not sure whether it must be “played to the delight” or “played up to the delight”. Clara wrote “bis zum Entzücken schön”, and with “Entzücken” a very high degree of delight is meant. Perhaps you can find a better word instead of "delight".) In the last sentence of the last paragraph it goes without saying that the description was taken from the review. Even in most pedantic scholarly papers it is common use to give an indirect quotation of that kind
In the first sentence of the second paragraph of 1.4.6, instead of "after his operas ... failed", it seemed to be better, writing "after his operas ... had failed". The last sentence of the paragraph is in the subsequent paragraphs shown to be true. A virtuoso who makes such a tour and is described in such kind (see the quotation from the New-York Musical Review and Gazette of July 24, 1858, at the chapter's end), actually is the most perfect virtuoso ever heard in America. A further citation should therefore be superfluous. The sentence "offering highly polished renditions of both the great classics and his own compositions" is correct, but somewhat misleading. Thalberg played mainly own works, of course. In my version I therefore referred to those, and only afterwards wrote that Thalberg played some classical masterworks besides. (By the way, Chopin and Mendelssohn were not "great classics", but still modern composers in those times.) 80.145.28.175 15:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
A friend of mine just sent me the following quote from former New York Times music critic Harold C. Schonberg's book "The Great Pianists", pg. 191-2:
"Toward the end of his career, Thalberg stopped composing. Wilhelm Kuhe, a Czech-born teacher resident in London, asked him why. "Alas!" said Thalberg. "My imitators have made me impossible." His music, though, was doomed to a short life. Today it is forgotten, and he himself is a shadowy figure. Liszt moved with the times, constantly growing, while Thalberg was content to be the virtuoso with his little bag of dated tricks."
Is this an isolated opinion, or could it hint at a larger truth--namely, the reason why Thalberg is barely remembered today? In any event, whether this is a correct interpretation or not, I respectfully suggest that we do need to find out why it is that someone so renowned in his time as Thalberg was is almost totally forgotten in modern times. Whether justified or not, his being almost forgotten today probably deserves a mention and explanation in the article. K. Lásztocska 16:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
In addition to my posting of August 15: You can take Liszt's fantasy on "La Juive" from here. The example which I need is the first line of page 28. It shows the same chromatic octaves as in the examples from Thalberg's works. (Thalberg took it from Liszt in this case.) 80.144.73.181 09:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Fine, here are your chromatic octaves. K. Lásztocska 14:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
schonberg is an ass The quotation from Schonberg about Thalberg's "little bag of dated tricks" can be regarded as typical example for the kind in which it is by some thought about him. It will be a good idea, to take this as starting point for a chapter about Thalberg as composer. But the form taken by Schonberg is in no sense precise. (It is for this reason polemic.) Better examples can be taken from C. F. Weitzmann and Lina Ramann, but there is a problem to be solved. Their writing style was very fuzzy. It is therefore a hard task, finding an adequate translation. It would have been the best solution, if someone of you went to a library in order to get English editions via interlibrary loan. It is for sure that those editions exist, and it would have been not more than one or two weeks to get them. Unfortunately it seems to be against the habits of English Wikipedians to get experiences of this. The problem must therefore be solved in a different way.
In the following, I'll give the German originals as well as suggested translations in which the rather complicated style with long sentences is reproduced. Please, look at it and correct it in a way in which the structure of the original sentences is kept. Ramann's sentence "inzwischen längst verallgemeinert" is problematic because it is somewhat hard to guess what Ramann wanted to say with "verallgemeinert". It can be "generalized", but more likely it is meant in a sense that the effect had become commonly used. "inzwischen" is "meanwhile" or "in the meantime". "längst" is "for a long time" or "a long time ago". But I have no idea how to connect both in order to get "inzwischen längst". "in the meantime for a long time" would sound rather bad in my ears. For this reason I took only "for a long time". Instead of "which above and beneath, through all octaves, were rushing around a melody" it would be better to take "which were above and beneath, through all octaves, rushing around a melody". But the "huge" distance between "were" and "rushing" might be looking somewhat irritating for an English eye. "Mittellage" is the medium range of the keyboard, but I don't know which word is usually taken by English pianists. "übertönend" means that the melody can be distinctly heard as main part of the music. The question whether it is "drowning" as my dictionary says, or whether there is a better word for it, is open. To repeat the task, the exact sense as well as the structure of the sentences must be reproduced, as far as it is possible. Taking "Google translation" would be no solution at all.
Ramann:
Weitzmann:
80.145.51.242 09:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Might I suggest that the appropriate English term for "Mittellage" would be "middle register"?
It is certainly accurate to point out that the arpeggio passage in the Moses Fantasy does not match the descriptions given of it by Ramann and Weitzmann. I prefer the oft-used terminology of "three-handed effect" for the specific pianistic device that Thalberg is generally considered to have introduced, not least because this term covers a wider range of possibilities. Compare, for example, the section 27 bars before the arpeggios (three pages earlier in my score): here the melody is also shared between the hands (and, incidentally, not an arpeggio in sight). Furthermore, the melody is clearly not only played by the thumbs. It is often the case than in such passages, Thalberg's effect is in reality accompaniment in the bass (left hand), melody in the middle register (shared between the hands) and ornamentation in the treble (right hand). Another example of the "three-handed effect", this time in a non-virtuoso context, would be in his arrangement of Casta diva (from L'art du chant, op.70).
However, it is only fair to say that he did use this textural device rather a lot.
Paraphrase 10:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
May I quote a comment from German Wikipedia on Weitzmann's claim?
"Die Durchsicht der Noten führt zu dem Ergebnis, dass die von Weitzmann und in entsprechender Art auch von vielen anderen Autoren beschriebene Spielweise weder in den von Weitzmann genannten, noch in einem einzigen der übrigen Werke Thalbergs zu finden ist. Thalberg ist in diesem Sinn für eine Spielweise berühmt, die er nicht verwendet hat."
So Weitzmann claims something which doesn't seem to be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.193.3.231 ( talk) 00:22, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
The revision was written for those Wikipedia users who are actually interested in Thalberg. Those others who still prefer playing a role or riding a hobbyhorse will better read a different text. 80.144.166.16 09:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
At the article's top it is to be read that the neutrality is disputed. I may then ask for details. Should an impression of a hagiographic style be meant, there is unfortunately nothing that can be changed. According to all contemporary sources which have come to light until now, Thalberg's career actually was of the described, very exceptional kind. Since there is indeed a problem of credibility, I searched for different sources and did it for several years. But I found nothing, and – as far as I know – nobody else has been successful. After this, the true astonishing aspect is the picture drawn of Thalberg in most of the Liszt-literature. 80.144.142.164 09:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Further to K. Lásztocska's comments, I would add that undue weight is indeed given to Thalberg on too many occasions. The fact that the style is hagiographic is a problem in an encyclopaedia, which is why we have a policy of neutral point of view. The main problem though, as I see it, is the comparison with Liszt. It reads from the beginning as if you have an agenda, in raising Thalberg's profile in comparison to Liszt - which I believe you do. Take for example your discussion of his successful concerts in comparison to Liszt's less successful ones, fair enough, but what of the "piano duel"? You devote whole sections to rivalry with Liszt, yet the most famous episode in their rivalry is given one sentence? Something is a awry here, clearly. Is it the fact that Thalberg when actually compared to Liszt in the same place at the same time didn't actually outshine him? You are not giving enough facts for a fair comparison.
Take also for example, the mention of Liszt making enemies while Thalberg was recieving the Legion of Honour, as if Liszt didn't... When of course he did win it in 1860 and was made a commander the next year. But the impression is left that Liszt was not successful in France. Thalberg's failure as a composer is skirted around. What of his failed operas? All that is mentioned is that his piano compositions were successful. There's a big difference.
Phrases such as "The contemporaries of the 19th century only saw that what they wanted to see." are simply your own opinion. Implying that your version is the truth, and the contemporaries were wrong. I assume this applies also to people like Heine who wrote favourably about Thalberg? M A Mason 12:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Since the article is in all parts splendidly cited with first rate original sources, the tag concerning "disputed neutrality" seems to be misleading and superflous. Besides, the above debate speaks for itself. So, as far as during the following two weeks no contradiction comes, I'll take it away.
85.22.0.56 (
talk)
09:43, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Quote "While Thalberg was in the late 19th century only recognized as "Old Arpeggio", the imposing command of counterpoint in the fugue-finale of his Norma-fantasy had been forgotten" I found this misleading as it wasn't really a fugal finale, but was only like 20 bars of contrapuntal writing. 130.56.71.133 ( talk) 10:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)19th cent music
His full name - which we usually include very early in an article - is usually given as Sigismond Fortuné François Thalberg , or some variant thereof. See Musicsack (which lists a number of sources- not sure which one provides the middle-names). Any thoughts? Schissel | Sound the Note! 11:58, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
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To a native English speaker, who I am inclined to believe is the target audience for this encyclopedia, this article almost immediately stands out as contrived. The article repeats itself numerous times, and is FULL of comma splices of the sort an American or British schoolchild would make before advancing to high school. The article is practically unreadable because of the poor organization of its content, and the repetitive nature of that jumbled content. Numerous instances of time-consuming copyediting are needed, which I will undertake soon.
To any person with a knowledge of composers and the pecking order of their importance, the article immediately stands out as a laughably amateurish and biased hagiography. The author (for there certainly and obviously is one primary author) has done Mr. Thalberg a great service, of which Thalberg would most certainly be proud. Utterly ridiculous in tenor, it is notable that a quick "Find" command in one's browser results in "over 100 results" (sic) for the search term "Liszt;" this is an unfortunate and glaring tell-tale sign of the author's intent (by comparison, a similar search of the Franz Liszt article returns "4 results"). Also notable is the fact that this article is quite a bit longer than the articles for Liszt, Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, et al.
Liszt apparently said that Thalberg's music would be all but forgotten; and in 2009 the instances of performance, recording, and distribution of Thalberg recordings are rare indeed. Why, then must the casual encyclopedia reader be subjected to an entire article of one author's strange preoccupation with a Liszt-inferiority complex? The Liszt article can be written with either no mention of Thalberg or a passing mention; however this particular Thalberg article written in this particular peculiar way would hardly exist if it weren't for Mr. Liszt.
There are relatively few standalone achievements of Mr. Thalberg to speak of, and this article does Thalberg's actual achievements a great disservice by discouraging reading with such length disproportionate to his accomplishments, and with such single-minded repetitiveness. Also, the obsessive mention of Franz Liszt is embarrassing and serves as a continual reminder to any casual reader that he or she is in fact, reading an encyclopedia on the internet that anyone can edit. The repeated splicing of commas is the icing on the amateur cake, so to speak, and the entire thing needs to be remanded and edited, and in the meantime until these changes are affected, the article should certainly be tagged.
It is over-cited. The author wants to make a serious point here.
Unfortunately, because Mr. Thalberg is infrequently mentioned in modern times, this sort of travesty can take place relatively unnoticed and undisturbed for months; this 'dusty' Wikipedia article, as it were, is a biased pet-project of which, if a comparable mess were made of Sergei Rachmaninov's or one of the above-mentioned and frequently-looked-up composers' pages, would not stand very long. And so tag & edit I shall... User:Blue Alert 19 February 2009
this article: "Until the end of Liszt's stay in Vienna Thalberg did not perform at all. Nevertheless, he was still praised. In a review of Liszt's own charity concert on April 18, 1838, for example, he was described as the winner of the "piano duel" of spring 1837 in Paris." while dana gooley's liszt the virtuoso: "Sigismund Thalberg, a pianist of uncertain origins – though reputedly of noble but illegitimate birth – burst on the Paris scene at the end of 1835 and was quickly hailed in some quarters as the world’s foremost piano virtuoso. Liszt, then in Geneva with the Countess Marie d’Agoult, probably had not yet heard Thalberg play, but responded all the same with a long and damaging article about his compositions in the Paris Revue et gazette musicale. Thus began a rivalry, much inflamed by the press, that culminated in the duel staged in 1837 by the Princess Belgiojoso. Its outcome has been variously assessed, but what everyone remembered was the Princess’s airy bon mot, “Thalberg is the first pianist in the world; Liszt is the only one”." 86.108.49.61 ( talk) 16:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a minor issue--I distinctly remember reading somewhere (not in Alan Walker) that the infamous review of Thalberg's compositions by Monsieur Liszt was most likely actually written by Marie d'Agoult. Have you read anything to support that theory? K. Lásztocska 12:45, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Scholar,
Surely someone so intelligent and educated as yourself can tone down the hagiographic text a little? This is a very biased portrait of Thalberg and needs to be thoroughly cited and verified before I can even think about finishing touches like grammar and style. For example, did you really need to write "He was a God when sitting at the piano"? This entire article is currently written in a very unencyclopedic style and I would urge you to make an effort to improve that.
Kind regards, K. Lásztocska 12:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Greetings. 80.145.39.246 17:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification--as it was previously, it was unclear whether or not Schumann had said that or if it was just a statement by the article's author. I put it in quotation marks to avoid such confusion in the future. K. Lásztocska 17:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I actually don't mind to be criticized, but it does not make sense when it is overdone. When, for example, I wrote, Liszt was feeling as if he was himself the exiled Napoleon, it is exactly this which he wrote in his letter to d'Agoult from April 29, 1836. The “missing” reference had therefore already been given. Another example is Clara Wieck's diary. Everything I wrote is to be read there. The fact, that Liszt claimed, all of Thalberg's music was completely worthless, is known by anyone who read his review. It is written in explicit words there. The fact, that Liszt, for the purpose of gaining applause from his audience, distributed free tickets, might be shocking for you at first sight. But it is quite well known from his own letters. In similar ways I could comment all of the rest of it. I took everything from sources which are not disputable. To this, everything I wrote has already been published in books and essays, which can be taken as WikiSources, thereby obeying the strictest rules. In the still missing parts of “Thalberg’s tours” you will see, by the way, that until now it is only an impression of the beginning of his career which I could give. During the following years, Thalberg was still increasing. As a general comment, I’d like to say: “Be welcome in the 21th centuries musicology!” 80.144.163.190 18:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Can't believe I'm breaking my wikibreak already....curse my insatiable curiosity, I just HAD to log on and check my messages....however, it may be a good thing that I did that, since we appear to have a major misunderstanding here.
I can't help but notice, Anonymous Scholar, that you have reverted all your work back to the article's earlier and much inferior form. If I interpret your latest message on my talk page correctly, you were offended by the tags I slapped all over the article; noticing that I had not slapped any tags on the old version, you concluded that I must have thought the earlier version was already perfect. I assure you that is not the case: the only reason I never tagged the old version was simply that I never bothered to read it. (Thalberg is usually not at the forefront of my mind.)
I certainly meant you no personal offense by adding those tags--I had thought you wanted my professional criticism of your work so we could collaborate on writing a good article. However, after thinking about it, I suppose I laid it on pretty thick, for which I apologize. My bigger miscalculation, however, may have been my timing: when I added those tags, the article was clearly still under construction and very much a work in progress, so to suddenly jump in in the midst of your work with loads of tags and criticism may have been unfair and unhelpful on my part. (I'm reminded of a rather frightening former violin teacher of mine, who was in the unfortunate habit of berating me and criticizing me quite viciously on account of my habitual failure to fully master a difficult Paganini caprice or Brahms sonata in less than a week.) I certainly wouldn't appreciate being treated that way, and I sincerely apologize for treating you that way. I meant no offense or discouragement at all, and I encourage you to re-instate your work-in-progress text (senza tags) and continue working on it. (One tag I would suggest, however, is {{Underconstruction}}!)
As soon as I post this message I will be logging off and taking my necessary wikibreak--I should be back in a week or two. By then, perhaps you will have finished your work on the Thalberg article and I can have a look at it then (and I will try to be a bit more tactful with my criticism.) Apologies again for any untoward rudeness, and my best wishes. K. Lásztocska 22:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I put the first three of my chapters back to the Thalberg article. In comparison with their former versions, I added some details as well as many sources and references. The sources are in the footnotes quoted with short titles, the meaning of which will be clear after the complete bibliography has been added. According to my own taste, it is somewhat overdone, not to say very unusual, to give so many references to an encyclopaedia article, but it will be your taste which will count in the end. So, please have a look at it and tell me, of which kinds your impressions are. In one case I kept the "citation needed" hint. The reference can be found in the Leipziger Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung, but I had not enough time to search for it. A further exception is my statement, Thalberg's "Moise" fantasy was one of the most famous concert pieces of the 19th century, which has been left without source. Wanting to give a reference for that, would be ridiculous (I'm sorry for it.) since it is a fact which is known by everyone with knowledge of 19th century's piano music. I could as well try to give a reference in order to prove that Clementi was a famous composer.
Hi guys. Smerus, as I understood my earlier communications with him, the anonymous scholar agreed to let me and others fix his English, once he had finished writing all he could. I might be misinterpreting something, but I get the impression it annoys him when we interrupt his train of thought with linguistic issues and fact tags.
As for the Moise fantasy--yes, people who are intimately familiar with the history of 19th-century piano music will know it was very popular, but most people, sadly, aren't all that familiar with the history of 19th-century piano music. (And what is Wikipedia's job if not to inform?) ;-) In any event, even though it is not a very controversial statement, it still needs a citation--that's just common practice. K. Lásztocska 21:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a problem concerning Thalberg's name. I recently found that in English publications he is rather often called "Sigismund" instead of "Sigismond". An example is the dissertation of Ian Glenn Hominick. There is even an American "Sigismund Thalberg Society", founded by Daniel L. Hitchcock. (No, he is not the Hitchcock. That Hitchcock was working with Irving Thalberg.) On the other hand, in Gooley's The Virtuoso Liszt, written in Cambridge, Thalberg is called "Sigismond". It therefore seems that he is "Sigismund" in America and "Sigismond" in Great Britain. Since his true name was actually "Sigismund", it might be the best solution when we take this version for our article too. What do you think about it? 80.144.155.250 09:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Scholar—would it be fine if I moved the article to Sigismund Thalberg? — $PЯINGεrαgђ 01:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
It will be a good idea to put some more images to the article. In order to find them, take the "Biography" link at the article's end. Scrolling down, at the bottom left edge a symbol like a house can be seen. Clicking at that leads to a page of an Italian research centre. There is at left a list, including an entry "Albumfoto". The album includes five images of Thalberg as well as an image of his death mask. (The image "Thalberg 57 years old" is, in fact, from about 1860.) The images can be extracted and afterwards used. The only one, beeing in private posession, is apparently the image of the death mask. Unfortunately, I have no experience of such things until now. Perhaps you can help me?
To this comes a further problem of which I don't know how to solve it. I need examples from printed music, especially from Thalberg's Moise-fantasy. The music can be taken as pdf-score from the internet. It should be possible to extract a small part of some bars and turn it into jpg. The image should be placed not left nor right, but more in the middle, so that it is in the article looking as in the page of a book. The effect would undoubtedly be great. A single line from the Moise-fantasy as well as from the Waltzes op.47 will do. 80.145.23.122 11:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Can't help with the quote, but I'm pretty sure I can help with the excerpts from the printed music (I can download it, open the window, take a screen capture, then fiddle around a bit in Photoshop to get a jpg image of the notation.) Can you please direct me to the best place to download the music? K. Lásztocska Review me? 19:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
There is clearly a vast wealth of information contained in this article. My concern, however, is the appropriateness of the current style to the medium in which we present it. This should be an encyclopedia entry, and as such should be as clear and concise as possible. Remember we are primarily writing for a general audience of interested laymen. I am of the opinion that there is much here that would be more appropriate in an academic journal, not an encyclopedia.
For example, the section about Thalberg's parentage, his parents' probable identities, and their family histories, is quite interesting but in this context, it is somewhat gratuitous. Is it really all that important to go into such detail about the Thalberg family history in an article whose primary function should be to provide an accurate, clear and concise account of who Thalberg was, what he did, and what his legacy was?
I am not concerned with the article's length, I'm concerned with its coherence. In its present state it tends to ramble on and occasionally get lost in side-notes and tangents. I will certainly make every effort to find a way to tighten it up without removing any pertinent information. I have to warn you though, it may turn out that for the sake of the article, some superfluous sections will need to be removed. (If it comes to that, please don't take it personally.)
I will look at it more closely over the weekend (no more time today for such a big project.) Until then, best wishes, K. Lásztocska Review me? 19:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Good grief. Sorry for trying. You know what? If you don't want my help, don't ask for it. If you don't want me to try reworking the style into something a bit more readable (and more in tune with general Wikipedia style guidelines) then pray tell, what DO you want me to do? K. Lásztocska Review me? 13:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Technically, adding himself to the bibliography is fine if it's a published work from a reliable source (academic journal, etc.) Interesting about Walker though. ;-) K. Lásztocska Review me? 15:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
It has unfortunately turned out, that the editor K. Lásztocska has shown strong attempts to systematically delete all sources in which a single artist of the 19th century, Franz Liszt, is not recognized as Hungarian and not worshipped as hero. Since it is obvious that such kind of attitude has nothing to do with neutrality of point of view and is therefore absolutely intolerable in an encyclopaedia project, I may very urgently ask that editor, to radically change her behaviour. For the moment, I put chapter 1.4.5 to a reasonable state again. 80.144.180.122 15:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
At first, I must say, thank you very much for your collaboration and your patience towards some of my eccentricities. Nevertheless, the article can, without doubt, still be improved. The question whether it is bloated or not, will be hard to decide and in the end depend on the readers taste. Speaking for myself, I would have been very happy to get such a source when writing my thesis about Liszt. There is nearly no Thalberg research at all, so that I had to find out nearly everything for myself. (Regarding that Italian page, it says much that no Italian article about Thalberg exists.) The thesis by Hominick is not a masterwork, and especially the part about Thalberg’s European concert career includes many mistakes. The articles in the "New Musical Grove" and the new "Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart" are even worse. It was therefore my aim, to do a better thing, writing an article, which can be used as reliable scholarly source. But it must, of course, also be readable for casual users of Wikipedia. The article's size can be reduced by moving the complete work list to a special page, by the way. It has been done in the same way in the (featured) article about Lutoslawski.
At moment, the best I can do, is giving some comments to the article’s present form. The last paragraph of chapter 1.1 can probably be deleted. It was my idea, at first to show the family Dietrichstein as old Austrian nobility family (Following the social logic of those times, an old family had a very high rank.), at second to give more evidence for a connection between the names Dietrichstein and Thalberg, and at third to give a hint for an early connection between family Dietrichstein and Liszt. Looking at the announcement of Liszt's famous "Weihekuss"-concert on April 13, 1823, in Vienna, it is to be read that the concert was given "mit hoher Bewilligung" ("with high permission"). Since Moritz von Dietrichstein was "Musikgraf", it had been him who was responsible for that permission. It might have been exactly this reason for which his brother visited a lesson of the boy Liszt with Salieri. But I must admit that the traces are rather hidden, and it would not change much if the paragraph was missing.
At the end of the forth paragraph of chapter 1.4.4, the sentence "In short, according to Fétis he was, harmonically Fétis and ..." sounds a bit unpolished for my taste, and it is because of the twofold "Fétis". In fact, the statement, Liszt was harmonically Fétis and pianistically Thalberg, is a summary of the previous ones. It should therefore be sufficient, to write "In short, he was harmonically Fétis ...". Taking this form, there is still the problem that this sentence as well as the following one is commencing with "In". For avoiding this, I suggest "He was, in short, harmonically Fétis ...".
At the end of the sixth paragraph everything had been taken from Clara Schumann's diary entry. It should therefore be superfluous, repeating in every single sentence that only her opinions are told. (Clara's opinions were shared in all Europe by everyone who wrote about Thalberg.) In order to solve the problem, I put a direct quotation instead. (I’m not sure whether it must be “played to the delight” or “played up to the delight”. Clara wrote “bis zum Entzücken schön”, and with “Entzücken” a very high degree of delight is meant. Perhaps you can find a better word instead of "delight".) In the last sentence of the last paragraph it goes without saying that the description was taken from the review. Even in most pedantic scholarly papers it is common use to give an indirect quotation of that kind
In the first sentence of the second paragraph of 1.4.6, instead of "after his operas ... failed", it seemed to be better, writing "after his operas ... had failed". The last sentence of the paragraph is in the subsequent paragraphs shown to be true. A virtuoso who makes such a tour and is described in such kind (see the quotation from the New-York Musical Review and Gazette of July 24, 1858, at the chapter's end), actually is the most perfect virtuoso ever heard in America. A further citation should therefore be superfluous. The sentence "offering highly polished renditions of both the great classics and his own compositions" is correct, but somewhat misleading. Thalberg played mainly own works, of course. In my version I therefore referred to those, and only afterwards wrote that Thalberg played some classical masterworks besides. (By the way, Chopin and Mendelssohn were not "great classics", but still modern composers in those times.) 80.145.28.175 15:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
A friend of mine just sent me the following quote from former New York Times music critic Harold C. Schonberg's book "The Great Pianists", pg. 191-2:
"Toward the end of his career, Thalberg stopped composing. Wilhelm Kuhe, a Czech-born teacher resident in London, asked him why. "Alas!" said Thalberg. "My imitators have made me impossible." His music, though, was doomed to a short life. Today it is forgotten, and he himself is a shadowy figure. Liszt moved with the times, constantly growing, while Thalberg was content to be the virtuoso with his little bag of dated tricks."
Is this an isolated opinion, or could it hint at a larger truth--namely, the reason why Thalberg is barely remembered today? In any event, whether this is a correct interpretation or not, I respectfully suggest that we do need to find out why it is that someone so renowned in his time as Thalberg was is almost totally forgotten in modern times. Whether justified or not, his being almost forgotten today probably deserves a mention and explanation in the article. K. Lásztocska 16:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
In addition to my posting of August 15: You can take Liszt's fantasy on "La Juive" from here. The example which I need is the first line of page 28. It shows the same chromatic octaves as in the examples from Thalberg's works. (Thalberg took it from Liszt in this case.) 80.144.73.181 09:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Fine, here are your chromatic octaves. K. Lásztocska 14:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
schonberg is an ass The quotation from Schonberg about Thalberg's "little bag of dated tricks" can be regarded as typical example for the kind in which it is by some thought about him. It will be a good idea, to take this as starting point for a chapter about Thalberg as composer. But the form taken by Schonberg is in no sense precise. (It is for this reason polemic.) Better examples can be taken from C. F. Weitzmann and Lina Ramann, but there is a problem to be solved. Their writing style was very fuzzy. It is therefore a hard task, finding an adequate translation. It would have been the best solution, if someone of you went to a library in order to get English editions via interlibrary loan. It is for sure that those editions exist, and it would have been not more than one or two weeks to get them. Unfortunately it seems to be against the habits of English Wikipedians to get experiences of this. The problem must therefore be solved in a different way.
In the following, I'll give the German originals as well as suggested translations in which the rather complicated style with long sentences is reproduced. Please, look at it and correct it in a way in which the structure of the original sentences is kept. Ramann's sentence "inzwischen längst verallgemeinert" is problematic because it is somewhat hard to guess what Ramann wanted to say with "verallgemeinert". It can be "generalized", but more likely it is meant in a sense that the effect had become commonly used. "inzwischen" is "meanwhile" or "in the meantime". "längst" is "for a long time" or "a long time ago". But I have no idea how to connect both in order to get "inzwischen längst". "in the meantime for a long time" would sound rather bad in my ears. For this reason I took only "for a long time". Instead of "which above and beneath, through all octaves, were rushing around a melody" it would be better to take "which were above and beneath, through all octaves, rushing around a melody". But the "huge" distance between "were" and "rushing" might be looking somewhat irritating for an English eye. "Mittellage" is the medium range of the keyboard, but I don't know which word is usually taken by English pianists. "übertönend" means that the melody can be distinctly heard as main part of the music. The question whether it is "drowning" as my dictionary says, or whether there is a better word for it, is open. To repeat the task, the exact sense as well as the structure of the sentences must be reproduced, as far as it is possible. Taking "Google translation" would be no solution at all.
Ramann:
Weitzmann:
80.145.51.242 09:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Might I suggest that the appropriate English term for "Mittellage" would be "middle register"?
It is certainly accurate to point out that the arpeggio passage in the Moses Fantasy does not match the descriptions given of it by Ramann and Weitzmann. I prefer the oft-used terminology of "three-handed effect" for the specific pianistic device that Thalberg is generally considered to have introduced, not least because this term covers a wider range of possibilities. Compare, for example, the section 27 bars before the arpeggios (three pages earlier in my score): here the melody is also shared between the hands (and, incidentally, not an arpeggio in sight). Furthermore, the melody is clearly not only played by the thumbs. It is often the case than in such passages, Thalberg's effect is in reality accompaniment in the bass (left hand), melody in the middle register (shared between the hands) and ornamentation in the treble (right hand). Another example of the "three-handed effect", this time in a non-virtuoso context, would be in his arrangement of Casta diva (from L'art du chant, op.70).
However, it is only fair to say that he did use this textural device rather a lot.
Paraphrase 10:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
May I quote a comment from German Wikipedia on Weitzmann's claim?
"Die Durchsicht der Noten führt zu dem Ergebnis, dass die von Weitzmann und in entsprechender Art auch von vielen anderen Autoren beschriebene Spielweise weder in den von Weitzmann genannten, noch in einem einzigen der übrigen Werke Thalbergs zu finden ist. Thalberg ist in diesem Sinn für eine Spielweise berühmt, die er nicht verwendet hat."
So Weitzmann claims something which doesn't seem to be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.193.3.231 ( talk) 00:22, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
The revision was written for those Wikipedia users who are actually interested in Thalberg. Those others who still prefer playing a role or riding a hobbyhorse will better read a different text. 80.144.166.16 09:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
At the article's top it is to be read that the neutrality is disputed. I may then ask for details. Should an impression of a hagiographic style be meant, there is unfortunately nothing that can be changed. According to all contemporary sources which have come to light until now, Thalberg's career actually was of the described, very exceptional kind. Since there is indeed a problem of credibility, I searched for different sources and did it for several years. But I found nothing, and – as far as I know – nobody else has been successful. After this, the true astonishing aspect is the picture drawn of Thalberg in most of the Liszt-literature. 80.144.142.164 09:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Further to K. Lásztocska's comments, I would add that undue weight is indeed given to Thalberg on too many occasions. The fact that the style is hagiographic is a problem in an encyclopaedia, which is why we have a policy of neutral point of view. The main problem though, as I see it, is the comparison with Liszt. It reads from the beginning as if you have an agenda, in raising Thalberg's profile in comparison to Liszt - which I believe you do. Take for example your discussion of his successful concerts in comparison to Liszt's less successful ones, fair enough, but what of the "piano duel"? You devote whole sections to rivalry with Liszt, yet the most famous episode in their rivalry is given one sentence? Something is a awry here, clearly. Is it the fact that Thalberg when actually compared to Liszt in the same place at the same time didn't actually outshine him? You are not giving enough facts for a fair comparison.
Take also for example, the mention of Liszt making enemies while Thalberg was recieving the Legion of Honour, as if Liszt didn't... When of course he did win it in 1860 and was made a commander the next year. But the impression is left that Liszt was not successful in France. Thalberg's failure as a composer is skirted around. What of his failed operas? All that is mentioned is that his piano compositions were successful. There's a big difference.
Phrases such as "The contemporaries of the 19th century only saw that what they wanted to see." are simply your own opinion. Implying that your version is the truth, and the contemporaries were wrong. I assume this applies also to people like Heine who wrote favourably about Thalberg? M A Mason 12:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Since the article is in all parts splendidly cited with first rate original sources, the tag concerning "disputed neutrality" seems to be misleading and superflous. Besides, the above debate speaks for itself. So, as far as during the following two weeks no contradiction comes, I'll take it away.
85.22.0.56 (
talk)
09:43, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Quote "While Thalberg was in the late 19th century only recognized as "Old Arpeggio", the imposing command of counterpoint in the fugue-finale of his Norma-fantasy had been forgotten" I found this misleading as it wasn't really a fugal finale, but was only like 20 bars of contrapuntal writing. 130.56.71.133 ( talk) 10:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)19th cent music
His full name - which we usually include very early in an article - is usually given as Sigismond Fortuné François Thalberg , or some variant thereof. See Musicsack (which lists a number of sources- not sure which one provides the middle-names). Any thoughts? Schissel | Sound the Note! 11:58, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
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