This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article may be within the scope of Greek and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board. Please see the project page for more details, to request intervention on the notification board or peruse other tasks. |
Info@kafalas.com ( talk) 20:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)This is not helpful. I'm an American descendent of the brother of Gen. Kefalas (or Kephalas in the photo caption), and as you can imagine, in our family, he is a tremendous source of pride, being a hero of the Greek revolution, etc. Frankly, I never gave much thought to the idea that there might be another side to it until recently, when I decided it was time to read some of the primary sources from that period. Come to find out, he's not a hero, he's a butcher. Or, no, he's still a hero, because despite the excessive killings at Tripolitsa, the Turks killed a lot more people over the previous ~400 years. Or, how can you equate a few wartime excesses of violence with centuries of Turkish oppression and atrocities? Look: None of us was present at the event. At this point, all that matters is to identify what happened and why. According to Howe's rather dry discussion of the taking of Tripolitsa, a huge number of people were killed; he attributes a lot of it to rage over events of 1821 such as the execution of Gregory V and its aftermath, and a lot of it just to angry soldiers who wanted to steal anything of value from the city. Howe moves right along; In the context of the war, he feels, it was only one of many important military turning points, some of which involved mass killings of innocent (and guilty) people. At this point, making biased edits to the article, either to justify the killings, deny that they happened... or, on the other hand, to say they were unjustified acts of pointless slaughter, does not help readers who are trying to understand the events and their context in history. What would be more helpful would be to add references to more primary sources, so readers can read and decide for themselves.
User:Greek1232 15 ,August 2012 18:00 Hmm..I would say that the article is not close to the truth...i was not present at Tripolitsa but two of my ancestors were there and the stories i have heard are really different from arms and legs cutting...If the writer-composer of this article does not agree with the stories i know its ok..But he must know more about the historians he trust in order to tell somehting close to the historical truth(which nobody knows by the way)...But first let me tell you that general Theodoros Kolokotronis who was present at Tripoli i9n the siege and the "massacre" does not say in any spot of his memoirs about tortures and arms-legs cutting...I keep telling that because it seems silly a thing like that to vbe written cause this is a way the Turks used to execute many of Greeks in the past as well as the Romans did..Never heard however something like that in the modern Greek history...By the way Thomas Slavos was executed this way and some others too...To continue you refer to things said or written by6 foreign generals present...Where exactly did you read that foreign generals where to a secondary Ottoman city in the event of the siege by the Greeks in 1821??You may have read that in the historians you refer to in the comments...Just know that we cannot ,as writers ,compose articles and demand from the others to respect them when they lean on three writers or more for whom the two live almost one century away frtom what they describe and not give attention to the things written from both sides , even if things are written only by Greeks about that.. Finally its absolutely in human nature to commit thing like some of the ones described with the specific backstage of this epoc...If some invaders kill your mother, you father, your childer your wife,rape your mother yopur wife ecven your children, if yopu are not allowed to educate your children and not freely believe in any religion you want,if your kids are kidnapped and converted to sworn enemies of you and all these toprtures happen for 4 centuries then yes....its in human nature to commit massacres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greek1232 ( talk • contribs) 15:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC) ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Kekrops the aim of this article is to talk about the massacre not about the siege of the city as it is opened in relation with the massacres that occured following the outbreak of the greek revolt..Stop changing its name then..I dont go and say Siege of Chıos, right? And by any respect sıege was not an important success as there wasnt any significant ottoman military within the city they were mostly mere civilians..-- laertes d 14:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Let me explain it again,
Clear enough? -- laertes d 23:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Kekrops, first do not change the content, for instance do not erase the sentences that i completed about the massacres even though you dont agree with the title..
Actually that is incorrect that Greek historiography does not mention the massacre-- I have been the Tripoli museum which has a plaque about the massacres of civilians there. What is historically significant about the Fall of Tripoli is not that civilians were killed (this had no bearing on the outcome of the war) but that the last and most important Turkish stronghold was in Greek hands.
Please, author of the article make a proper list of sources or delete the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stamatisg ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Should this article be called Siege of Tripolitsa is instead of the Fall of Tripolitsa and include the battles anf the siege? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyriakos ( talk • contribs) 10:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The excerpt of the primary painting designed to draw the reader's attention to a detail of this painting appears like sheer editorializing, and adds no new or compelling information, or, to my taste, emphasis to the article so far. Indeed, it is condescending, presuming, as it does, that the reader did not already notice the destruction thus summarized in the text. A guide in a museum might do that to a busload of overwhelmed tourists, but the point is evident upon arrival to the article page. Slapping on visual chartjunk does little to encourage the thoughtful reader to understand and appreciate the primary sources quoted in that section, and explain to him/herself what actually happened. I should propose to delete it. Cuzkatzimhut ( talk) 20:20, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I've added the 1828 massacre perpertrated by Ibrahim, based on: Arnakis, George G. (1969). The Ottoman Empire and the Balkan States to 1900. Vol. 1, The Near East in Modern Times. The Pemberton Press,. p. 163. "Several towns, of which Tripolitsa was the most important, were destroyed by Ibrahim's forces, and the people were massacred or sold as slaves.". In case a couple of 1821 era memoirs didn't mention this specific event this can't mean that it didn't happen. As far as I know Arnakis is a well established academic. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I can only assume that the recent edits were part of typical national-pov editting. The fate of the Muslim Albanian garrison is well described in the article and it's well sourced: The city was taken before the 2,500 Albanian had departed, but still they had a safe passage out of the Peloponnese a few days after the fall. On the other hand the inlines provided here [ [1]] claim nothing about Albanians massacred in Tripolitsa and the editor in question is welcomed to provide an explanation about this. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:02, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
There is also an account by Leake, which confirms Kolokotronis' successful negotiations to save the Muslim Albanian garisson (Turco-Albanians in contemporary sources):
"The Albanian inhabitants of Tripolis — Leake says one fifth of the population of Greece was Albanian — were escorted by Kolokotronis's men to the other side of the Gulf of Corinth where, once free, they committed atrocities.
[ "committed+atrocities.+These+Albanian"&dq="committed+atrocities.+These+Albanian"&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAGoVChMIg-69-IrUyAIVxEwUCh2SNwxo] Alexikoua ( talk) 17:27, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I still wonder how the following text can mean that Albanians were also among the victims in Tripolis:
On the Greek side, a case in point is the atrocious onslaught of the Greeks and Hellenised Christian Albanians against the city of Tripolitza in October 1821, which is justified by the Greeks ever since as the almost natural and predictable outcome of more than ‘400 years of slavery and dudgeon’. All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821 is unsaid and forgotten, a case of ethnic cleansing through sheer slaughter (St Clair 2008: 1-9, 41-46) as are the atrocities committed in Moldavia (were the “Greek Revolution” actually started in February 1821) by prince Ypsilantis.
Actually the text doesn't claim anything about the Albanian defenders of Tripolitsa, who in fact were the only Muslims saved during the fall of the city. In general When an author states "all over Peloponesse" this doesn't necesarry mean Tripolitsa too. I can only assume that Resnari just initiated a new national & poorly cited agenda in this case. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
"On the Greek side, a case in point is the atrocious onslaught of the Greeks and Hellenised Christian Albanians against the city of Tripolitza in October 1821, which is justified by the Greeks ever since as the almost natural and predictable outcome of more than ‘400 years of slavery and dudgeon’. All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821 is unsaid and forgotten, a case of ethnic cleansing through sheer slaughter (St Clair 2008: 1-9, 41-46) as are the atrocities committed in Moldavia (were the “Greek Revolution” actually started in February 1821) by prince Ypsilantis."
And also
Andromedas, John N. (1976). "Maniot folk culture and the ethnic mosaic in the southeast Peloponnese”. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. 268. (1): 200. "In 1821, then, the ethnic mosaic of the southeastern Peloponnese (the ancient Laconia and Cynouria) consisted of Christian Tsakonians and Albanians on the east, Christian Maniats and Barduniotes, and Moslem Albanian Barduniotes in the southwest, and an ordinary Greek Christian population running between them. In 1821, with a general Greek uprising impending, rumors of a “Russo-Frankish” naval bombardment caused the “Turkish” population of the southeastern Peloponnese to seek refuge in the fortresses of Monevasia, Mystra, and Tripolitza. Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza. The origin of this rumor was the firing of a salute by a sea captain named Frangias in honor of a Maniat leader known as “the Russian Knight.” Some Moslems in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight the whole of the southeastern Peloponnese was cleared of “Turks” of whatever linguistic affiliation. This situation was sealed by the ultimate success of the Greek War for Independence. The Christian Albanians, identifying with their Orthodox coreligionists and with the new nationstate, gradually gave up the Albanian language, in some instances deliberately deciding not to pass it on to their children."
First off, not sure why you deleted the Arvanites participation in siege and events following sentence from the article. Heraclides states that bit outright and should stay. Secondly Andromedas points to Muslim Albanians from Vardhounia heading to and seeking refuge in Tripolitza in sizable numbers. Those people after all did not go anywhere unless you have a source for that and where there for the final onslaught. The Muslims of Tripolitza are idenfitied as having Muslim Albanians at that point in time. I will remove the word Turks as Heraclidies just mentions those communities massacred everywhere as opposed to Tripolitsa outright. Some more clarification is needed then about Albanian Muslim refugees fleeing to Tripolitsa then. When the city fell Muslim Albanians where present. Also the primary source below citing Kolokotronis memoirs states:
"Inside the town they had begun to massacre. ... I rushed to the palace ... "If you wish to hurt these Albanians,"
Kolokotronis, a witness to the events refers to those people as Albanians. I doubt that was in reference the Arvanites, unless there was some kind of loos in translation. Resnjari ( talk) 17:46, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Those massacred where not just defenders, but civilians. Before i even made additions that was outlined. Like i said all where included in that massacre. Andromedas states outright that Albanian Muslims from Vardounia fled to Tripolitsa. That is cited. I stand by that source and made changes according to that. The other stuff i was referring was already in the article which serves as corroboration since its been discussed. Kolokotronis in his memoirs in that passage does not distinguish from defenders or civilians. All were massacred. None of the sources do, so far used in the article. If you have good sources distinguishing that, use them. Go for it and put them with inline citation like i have done. I am all for it. As for "you do nothing more than flooding the talkpage", again your opinion. This is the talk page designed for discussion of issues like this. I am discussing and showing specific points relating to the matter. Wikipedia states that discussion can be had about a matter if it relates to the topic. Resnjari ( talk) 18:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I rushed to the place. The affair of the Albanians had been settled in my tent three days previously. Upon reaching the fort I found that the Greeks were endeavouring to attack those Albanians. "If you wish to hurt these Albanians," I cried, "kill me rather; for whilst I am a living man, whoever first makes the attempt, him will I kill the first." I then went in front of them with my body-guard, and had a conversation with the two leaders, Veli Bey and Limas Bey, and demanded two
hostages on their side, when I gave up their property to them, which amounted to as much as thirteen animals could be laden with. The chief men among all the Greeks had joined in this treaty. I was faithful to my word of honour. I took Koliopoulos from the Albanians, and gave them Giannaki Kolokotrones, Chrystakes, and Basil Alonisthiotes as hostages in his stead.
I ordered Koliopoulos, with three hundred men, to escort them, and he accompanied them to Kalavryta and Vostitsa, and then returned.
It seems that the Albanians you claimed as massacred have been savely accompanied out of the battlefield. I can only hope you stop whith this continuous national pov by claiming that non-existent events were history. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:55, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Towards the end of April 1821 an Albanian chief, Elmaz Bey, had been sent to the Morea to reinforce Tripolitsa with 1,700 men. They left the city during the assault and were allowed to establish their quarters in the camp previously occupied by Kolokotronis. From there they took off for Vostitsa, escorted by 500 Greeks, and then returned to Albania.
There is no claim about Albanians that did not followed their leader and insisted to stay in the besieged town. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:52, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
As scholarship does not cover the fate of the Muslim Albanian population, i will adjust for the time being and remove Albanians. Turks stay. I will also add in a sentance however that Albanian Muslims from Vardounia came to seek refuge in Tripoltisa.
Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza. The origin of this rumor was the firing of a salute by a sea captain named Frangias in honor of a Maniat leader known as “the Russian Knight.” Some Moslems in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight the whole of the southeastern Peloponnese was cleared of “Turks” of whatever linguistic affiliation.
I can't see somewhere Andromedas specifically claiming something about the victims of the Siege of Tripolis. By the way, how you claim that the barduniotes were non-combatants? Alexikoua ( talk) 20:52, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I fixed it. They fled there and where present during the siege. Still on a personal note, curious as to what happened to the Albanian Muslim Vardounotes population ? Resnjari ( talk) 21:06, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting. I was just looking before and there is no article on the region of Vardounia itself. What is the proper name of the region in Greek if times permits for writing one up as a starter for the rest to fill in. I keep seeing Bardounia and Vardounia in various Greek sources and in some both ! In Albanian they call it Bardhunj, well that's the form that Fatos Rrapaj recorded from some of their descendants that were amongst the Cham refugees strictly from the coastal villages of Arpica (now: Perdhika) and Arila (Arilas) in Thesprotia. He recalled narratives that some settled there after fleeing the Peloponnese. In songs he recorded from those villages (the refugee population from there, they are the only songs that talk about Bubulima, Ali Farmaqi, Kolokotronis etc. I have also seen conflicting information that they where either local Arvanites who went Muslim or some Muslim Albanians brought later or even a mixture of both populations. Resnjari ( talk) 21:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
However as noticed in the background section a brief explanation is need about who committed the massacre of 1770 in the same city. Any thoughts? Alexikoua ( talk) 06:03, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Για την κατάπνιξη της επανάστασης κατήλθαν στίφη Αλβανών, τα οποία κατέλυσαν το κράτος του οθωμανικού νόμου και επέδειξαν απερίγραπτη θηριωδία. Τις ατυχείς πολεμικές επιχειρήσεις διαδέχονταν πράξεις ωμότητας και εκδίκησης εκ μέρους των μουσουλμάνων, ως συνέβη στην Τριπολιτσά, όπου τη Μ Δευτέρα 29 Μαρτίου/9 Απριλίου 1770 εσφάγησαν περίπου 2000 κάτοικοι. Μεταξύ των θυμάτων ήταν και ο μητροπολίτης Άνθιμος (Βίρβογλης) οποίος ανασκολοπίστηκε μπροστά στο σεράηι με διαταγή του μουσελίμη. Την ίδια τύχη είχε και ο ανηψιός του προεστός Γ. Βίρβογλης, ενώ τ' αδέλφια του τελευταίου Αλέξανδρος, Στέφανος και Νικόλαος απαγχονήστικαν στην αγορά της πόλης. Οι οικίες των εκτελεσθέντων στην Τριπολιτσά εκάησαν και οι περιουσίες τους δημεύτηκαν. Θύμα των Αλβανών υπήρξε το 1779 ο προεστός του Αγίου Πέτρου Ανάγν. Κοντός , παππούς του ομόνυμου απομνημονευτή της επανάστασης του 1821
Although Albanian mercenaries were the ones that created chaos and anarchy in Tripolitsa, the author uses the general term "Muslims" to define the perpetrators of the massacre of 2,000 inhabitants. Thus, it would be not appropriate to claim that Turks or Albanians were the perpetrators, a reader can easily assume that they propably committed these attroticies, but if the reference states something was done by Muslims any change is OR. Thus, you are kindly advised to avoid OR too, especially about this kind of topic. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:54, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
@ Leonidas30000: I tried including the link in my rv reason but it was altogether too long and was excluded. Let me include all of it here. Again, per WP:NOTYOUTUBE such lengthy YouTube videos are not appropriate for Wikipedia. Regardless, the segment you forwarded me to refers to the memoirs of Kolokotronis who does indeed mention 32,000 as a number, but this is deemed an exaggeration by both contemporary scholars of his, as well as modern ones. For example, Philemon, Simopoulos, Trikoupis, and Stathakopoulos among others actually consider 10,000 more close to the truth. There is actually a very elaborate article by Stathakopoulos which explains in detail what happened to the non-Christian populations of Tripolitsa. You can read it here, https://www.huffingtonpost.gr/entry/ti-eyinan-oi-moesoelmanoi-sten-ellada-meta-to-1821_gr_5c937c98e4b0d952b22401e5 Demetrios1993 ( talk) 21:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Funny how the claimed stable version appears to be mostly the same disputed edit made by a sockpuppet, and certainly was never stable since it was immediately reverted. FDW777 ( talk) 18:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
@ 0IAlIOIIAI0: Neither of the two cited sources say anything of Christians being massacred inside Tripoli. You (and whoever wrote it in the first place) probably misunderstood what Andromedas (1976) wrote about the Muslims from Bardunia:
Some Muslims in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity.
This quote refers to the Christianization of the Muslim Barduniotes that chose to remain. I don't see any quote that refers to a massacre of Christians inside Tripoli. Also, you reverted the reuse of Bowman's reference that i did, which by the way requires an archived URL, since the current link is dead. Please revert yourself. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 15:26, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
In the three days following the city's capture, the Muslims (Turks and others) and the Jewish inhabitants of Tripolitsa were exterminated.
Thus almost overnight, the Greeks cleared the whole of southeastern Peloponnese of "Turks", regardless of linguistic affiliation, is obviously used in the context of religious affiliation; hence why the quote says
regardless of linguistic affiliation. The term " Turk", has been commonly used by non-Muslim Balkan people (which includes the author) to denote all Muslims in the region, regardless of their ethno-linguistic background (not regardless of religious affiliation as you claimed). Furthermore, the use of "Greek" by the author, is written in two obvious contexts; an ethnic one as he describes the demography of the Peloponnese at the time, and a unitary revolutionary one (regardless of ethnicity) as he refers to the instigators of the massacre.
The wider and broader meaning, that appears in the same reference in the wikipedia source to support your assumption has been emphatically ignored. Specifically the same page also mentions {{ Turk}}. The term "Turk" has been widely used in the past to refer to the Turkish_Empire which has also been called Turkish_Empire. The fact that the URL Turkish_Empire redirects to the Turkish_Empire strongly supports this. The source comes from a time (1976) where the term was still used, hence the term "Turks" can mean the subjects of the Turkish Empire. In the context, it can mean the supporters or authority holders of the Ottoman empires.
Even if the word "Turk" was used like that, it could have an informal and pejorative meaning, it would be an Ethnic_slur. A use very unlikely to be found in an academic source in English and very old one. Seeing that a similar term was used from 1715 , in particular Turco-Albanians it really evident that this is an old meaning, perhaps only applicable in the context of the Ottoman Empire. The spelling is different too.
Picking this particularly specific meaning over the wider, more formal meaning can only be WP:OR, assumption, or personal preference. In any case, assuming that the word is used as Turk is broader and hence more accurate. Finally, the most precise description and formal approach would be to use the broader possible references in the opening sentence to mention the event and then present the information about the victims. This is because the article is about the siege of tripolitsa. So the first information piece should be that there was a massacre, then present the information on the victims. I would advise that this approach is followed, since you are vigorously patrolling any changes to this article.
In 1821, then, the ethnic mosaic of the southeastern Peloponnese (the ancient Laconia and Cynouria) consisted of Christian Tsakonians and Albanians on the east, Christian Maniats and Barduniotes, and Moslem Albanian Barduniotes in the southwest, and an ordinary Greek Christian population running between them.
In 1821, with a general Greek uprising impending, rumors of a "Russo-Frankish" naval bombardment caused the "Turkish" population of the southeastern Peloponnese to seek refuge in the fortresses of Monemvasia, Mystra, and Tripolitza. Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic-stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza.
Some Moslems in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight, the Greeks cleared the whole of southeastern Peloponnese of "Turks", regardless of linguistic affiliation.
Christian Tsakonians and Albanians on the east, Christian Maniats and Barduniotes, and Moslem Albanian Barduniotes in the southwest, and an ordinary Greek Christian population running between them.,. 0IAlIOIIAI0 ( talk) 07:41, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
The scholarly community specializing in Ottoman studies has of late virtually banned the use of "Turkey", "Turks", and "Turkish" from acceptable vocabulary, declaring "Ottoman" and its expanded use mandatory and permitting its "Turkish" rival only in linguistic and philological contexts.
One of the worst atrocities, in terms of ferocity and number of victims, took place after the fall of Tripolitsa in September 1821. In the words of Alison Phillips: "the other atrocities of the Greeks paled before the awful scenes which followed the storming of Tripolitsa." In the heart of Morea, home to the Ottoman pasha (governor) of the region, Tripolitsa was estimated to have a population of 15,000 people before the Greek revolution that included 7,000 Muslims and 1,000 Greek-speaking (Romaniote) Jews. With the start of the revolution most of the Orthodox Christians fled the town, and the Muslims of the surrounding regions of Mistras, Bardounia, Leondari and Fanari, along with 9,000 Muslim troops, sought protection inside the walls of the citadel. It is estimated that approximately 25,000 souls were inside the citadel in the summer of 1821. Famine, disease, and fighting had thinned the population, yet it is believed that approximately 8,000 Muslims of every age and sex, but mostly women and children, perished when the Greeks sacked the citadel.
it is believed that approximately 8,000 Muslims of every age and sex, but mostly women and children, perished when the Greeks sacked the citadel. He doesn't say anything about a massacre of Ottoman Christians, nor does any other source in the article; this is purely an assumption of yours. If not, then show me a reliable source that says that Ottoman Christians were targeted as well during the sack of Tripolitsa. There is nothing subjective in stating the obvious fact that Muslims were targeted because they were Muslims. We have a whole article about the persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction. Here is another source talking about the identity of the victims; namely "Terrible Fate: Ethnic Cleansing in the Making of Modern Europe" (2013) by Benjamin Lieberman; page 9:
The fall of the Turkish fortress of Tripolitsa in the central Morea on October 5, 1821, brought the single worst massacre of the war. ... At least 8,000 Muslims and Jews died at Tripolitsa alone.
There is nothing subjective in stating the obvious fact that Muslims were targeted because they were Muslims.Is particularly wrong. The majority of the victims were Muslims, however your assumption that the reason of the siege and conflict was the religion of the inhabitants of Tripolitsa is completely wrong and misleading. The whole article is written in a similar, religious centric, tone that is far from accurate and neutral.
The siege of Tripolitsa, also called the fall of Tripolitsa (Greek: Άλωση της Τριπολιτσάς, romanized: Álosi tis Tripolitsás, Greek pronunciation: [ˈalosi tis tripoliˈt͡sas]) also known in Turkish sources as the Tripolitsa massacre (Turkish: Tripoliçe Katliamı)
In Greece and in the Greek language, the same belief was held about Turks_(term_for_Muslims), that they had essentially "become Turks", while tourkalvanoi ("Turco-Albanians") became a common term for Muslim Albanians who had been a significant minority in the country.
The scope of this article is the siege of Tripolitsa ( Tripoli) and the subsequent massacre of its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants.
There is nothing subjective in stating the obvious fact that Muslims were targeted because they were Muslims.includes assumptions on the causes of the siege. Please, take into account and keep in mind that there is no dispute regarding the religion of the majority of the victims. You keep citing resources that say that. This is known and expected for Tripolitsa, the capital of an Ottoman Eyalet of Moreas. This is why other, information regarding language, ethnicity, social status, economic status, would greatly contribute to tell the story of the victims.
I include citations, because what you discuss falls under WP:OR, and as editors here in Wikipedia, the content we add has to be verifiable through reliable sources. Furthermore, the title of the thread was referring to Christians, because that was the original issue, per the edits you were making ( diff1, diff2).
I never claimed that the reason of the siege was the religion of the inhabitants of Tripolitsa, but that in the subsequent massacre, non-Christian groups such as Muslims (majority) and Jews (minority) were targetted; that's what i wrote above, and is supported by reliable sources. By the way, the reason of the siege was that Tripolitsa acted as the administrative centre of the Ottomans in the Peloponnese, and contrary to what you write, it is already mentioned in the article, under the "Background" section; Situated in the middle of Peloponnese, Tripolitsa was the pre-eminent town in southern Greece and the administrative centre for Ottoman rule in the Peloponnese, which made it an important target for the Greek revolutionaries. Many rich Turks and Jews lived there, together with Ottoman refugees, such as Turks and Albanians from Vardounia (Βαρδούνια), who had been driven there by the outbreak of the revolt and escaped massacres in the country's southern districts.
You also write the following, So what does the author mean with "regardless of linguistic affiliation" what was the language of the victims? Why is this not included in the text?
Andromedas (1976), which is the source you refer to, doesn't describe the massacre of Tripolitsa, nor its victims; that's why it will be replaced by more relevant citations. The quote "regardless of linguistic affiliation" by Andromedas, is a reference to the Muslim refugees of southeastern Peloponnese. Again, as shown in the previous quote i shared, and contrary to what you claim, it is also already included in the article.
You write the following, the article is not neutral and of low quality
. The article is fine from a
WP:NPOV perspective. Furthermore, of course it isn't considered a
featured article, but that doesn't make it of low quality; it is normal. I have no problem with its expansion, but personally i don't have the time to do it properly. Look for example how more detailed the respective Greek and French (happens to be a
WP:FA) articles are. For now, a good remedy for this would be to add the respective translation template (
Template:Expand Greek), in case someone has the time and the will to work on it.
You write that [t]he scope of the article, is the events of the Siege/Massacre of Tripolitsa
; this is no different from what i wrote. Furthermore, i already told you that my reference to Muslims being targeted pertained to the massacre, not the siege. You also write, regarding the majority of the victims being Muslims, that [t]his is known and expected for Tripolitsa, the capital of an Ottoman Eyalet of Moreas.
Not really, because if you look at the more detailed Greek article, it says that Muslims made up approximately 1/4-1/2 of the town's population prior of the siege, and if you look at Katsikas (2021) that i shared above, with the start of the revolution, most of the Orthodox Christians fled the town, while the Muslims of the surrounding regions of Mystras, Bardounia, Leondari and Fanari, along with 9,000 Muslim troops, sought protection inside the walls of the citadel.
Demetrios1993 (
talk) 13:06, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
δύναμη των ενόπλων ήταν 10.000 άντρες, Αλβανοί, Ασιάτες και Πελοποννήσιοι Οθωμανοί.which translates to "The armed forces (of the city) were 10.000 men, Albanians, Asians and Peloponnese Ottomans". The greek version also mentions that the leaders of the armed forces were all Peloponnesian Ottomans. To my understanding it would be more interesting to
Following the capture of the city by the Greek revolutionary forces, a massacre of its population occurred.
Tripolitsa was an important target, because it was the administrative center of the Ottomans in the Peloponnese.
Tripolitsa was the capital of the Morea_Eyalet since 1786. The Morea Eaylet was a first-level province of the Ottoman Empire, centred on the Peloponnese peninsula in southern Greece.
Τέσσερα μεγάλα σώματα πολιορκητών σχημάτιζαν ημικύκλιο γύρω από την Τριπολιτσά. Το αριστερό κατείχε ο Κολοκοτρώνης με 2.500 άντρες, το δεξιό ο Γιατράκος με 1.500, το κέντρο με 1.000 ο Αναγνωσταράς και πίσω από το δεξιό και το κέντρο βρισκόταν ο Πετρόμπεης Μαυρομιχάλης με 1.500 άντρες. Οι δρόμοι προς Άργος και Λεοντάρι φυλάγονταν από 150 και τριακόσιους άντρες αντίστοιχα.[30] Αρχιστράτηγος ανακηρύχθηκε ο Πετρόμπεης[23] υπό την υπέρτατη ηγεσία του Δημητρίου Υψηλάντη, αλλά πραγματικός αρχηγός ήταν ο Κολοκοτρώνης.[31]
Μέχρι τον Αύγουστο λάμβαναν χώρα ακροβολισμοί μεταξύ των εμπολέμων, στους οποίους υπερτερούσαν οι Έλληνες όταν είχαν ν’ αντιμετωπίσουν το πεζικό των Τούρκων. Αλλά κι όταν επετίθετο το ιππικό τους, αποσύρονταν στους πρόποδες των βουνών και πάλι προξενούσαν βλάβη στους Τούρκους προστατευμένοι από την μορφολογία του εδάφους.[32]
Τον Αύγουστο μαθεύτηκε ότι ο Κιαμήλμπεης θα μετέφερε ενισχύσεις και πολεμοφόδια στην επίσης πολιορκούμενη Κόρινθο. Ο Κολοκοτρώνης διέταξε κι ανοίχθηκε τάφρος (γράνα) πάνω στον δρόμο που θ’ ακολουθούσαν οι Τούρκοι, αλλά ο Κιαμήλμπεης δεν βγήκε τελικά. Βγήκαν όμως στις 10 Αυγούστου πάνω από τέσσερις χιλιάδες Τούρκοι και συγκέντρωσαν άφθονα τρόφιμα από τα γύρω χωριά. Στην επιστροφή τους προσβλήθηκαν από τους ενεδρεύοντες στην τάφρο Έλληνες, υπέστησαν βαριές απώλειες και όλες οι τροφές και τα ζώα έπεσαν στα χέρια των πολιορκητών. Η μάχη αυτή, της Γράνας λεγόμενη, έφερε σε απόγνωση τους πεινασμένους ήδη Τούρκους.[33]
Τέλη Αυγούστου έφτασε από την Μασσαλία με πλοίο του ο Σκώτος φιλέλληνας Τόμας Γκόρντον, με Έλληνες και φιλέλληνες εθελοντές, τρία πυροβόλα και εξακόσια τουφέκια. Αλλά το πυροβολικό των Ελλήνων πολύ μικρή ζημιά μπόρεσε να προκαλέσει στον εχθρό, παρά τις προσπάθειες των ξένων εθελοντών, μεταξύ των οποίων και ο Ρεϊμπώ.[34]
Τότε ο Υψηλάντης, και ενώ είχαν ήδη εκδηλωθεί επιδημίες στην πόλη, πρότεινε παράδοση της πόλης υπό ευνοϊκούς όρους, αλλά αυτή απερρίφθη υπεροπτικά από τους Τούρκους.[35]
Στις 26 Αυγούστου διαδόθηκε η φήμη ότι ο τουρκικός στόλος έφερνε στην Πάτρα 10.000 στρατιώτες για απόβαση, ενώ στην πραγματικότητα είχε μόνο 1.000 Αλβανούς.[36] Δεδομένου ότι υπήρχε φόβος ότι τα στρατεύματα αυτά θα ενίσχυαν την πολιορκούμενη Τριπολιτσά, ο Υψηλάντης εξεστράτευσε στον Κορινθιακό κόλπο με 500 άντρες του Κολοκοτρώνη, μεταξύ των οποίων ο ανιψιός του Αποστόλης και οι γιοι του Πάνος και Γενναίος. Ο Οθωμανικός στόλος αγκυροβόλησε στη Ζάκυνθο, εφοδιάστηκε από τις ουδέτερες Αρχές του νησιού και στις 7 Σεπτεμβρίου κατέπλευσε στην Πάτρα. Περί τα μέσα Σεπτεμβρίου έγινε απόβαση 700 Αλβανών του στόλου, οι οποίοι μπήκαν στο εγκαταλελειμμένο Αίγιο και το κατέκαψαν, ενώ διασκορπίστηκαν σε όλη την επαρχία λαφυραγωγούντες. Στις 19 Σεπτεμβρίου ο τουρκικός στόλος έπλευσε προς το Γαλαξίδι, όπου αιχμαλώτισε 34 πλοία, κατέστρεψε τα υπόλοιπα, έσφαξε λίγους γέροντες που είχαν μείνει στην πόλη και την έκαψε. Τελικά όμως ο στόλος δεν ανακούφισε τους πολιορκημένους της Τριπολιτσάς. Σκοπός του ήταν να διευκολύνει την μετάβαση στρατευμάτων προς την Πελοπόννησο αλλά η εκστρατεία αυτή απέτυχε λόγω της ήττας των Τούρκων στην μάχη των Βασιλικών.[37] Εν τω μεταξύ παραδόθηκαν στους Έλληνες τα φρούρια της Μονεμβασιάς και του Ναβαρίνου.
Δεδομένου ότι «η εκ περάτων της Πελοποννήσου υπερσωρευθείσα πληθύς ηπείλει διαρπαγήν γενικήν» κατά Φιλήμονα, αποφασίστηκε ότι οι στρατιώτες, οι οποίοι δεν είχαν πληρωθεί από την αρχή της πολιορκίας, θα λάμβαναν τα δύο τρίτα της λείας ενώ το υπόλοιπο ένα τρίτο θα πήγαινε στο Εθνικό Θησαυροφυλάκιο.[38] Η μοιρασιά μεταξύ των ανδρών θα ήταν ισότιμη: η οπισθοφυλακή θα λάμβανε όσα και η εμπροσθοφυλακή. Μερίδια είχαν προβλεφθεί ακόμα και για τις οικογένειες των νεκρών κατά τη διάρκεια της μάχης. Παράλληλα θεσπίστηκαν ειδικές αμοιβές για κάθε αιχμάλωτο Τούρκο,[39] ενώ μέχρι τότε πληρώνονταν μόνο για τα κομμένα κεφάλια που έφερναν στο στρατόπεδο (τρεις πιάστρες). Οι Κεχαγιάμπεης, Κιαμήλμπεης και άλλοι επίσημοι Τούρκοι επικηρύχθηκαν.[38]0IAlIOIIAI0 ( talk) 14:46, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I believe that more details must be given for the siege (that is the title of the article) .The massacre must be described in a diferrent article. Jestmoon(talk) 16:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
I suspect that 23.09 is on the julian calendar, since I have two books with the dates 23.09 and 05.10. pietro 151.29.78.113 ( talk) 19:13, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article may be within the scope of Greek and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board. Please see the project page for more details, to request intervention on the notification board or peruse other tasks. |
Info@kafalas.com ( talk) 20:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)This is not helpful. I'm an American descendent of the brother of Gen. Kefalas (or Kephalas in the photo caption), and as you can imagine, in our family, he is a tremendous source of pride, being a hero of the Greek revolution, etc. Frankly, I never gave much thought to the idea that there might be another side to it until recently, when I decided it was time to read some of the primary sources from that period. Come to find out, he's not a hero, he's a butcher. Or, no, he's still a hero, because despite the excessive killings at Tripolitsa, the Turks killed a lot more people over the previous ~400 years. Or, how can you equate a few wartime excesses of violence with centuries of Turkish oppression and atrocities? Look: None of us was present at the event. At this point, all that matters is to identify what happened and why. According to Howe's rather dry discussion of the taking of Tripolitsa, a huge number of people were killed; he attributes a lot of it to rage over events of 1821 such as the execution of Gregory V and its aftermath, and a lot of it just to angry soldiers who wanted to steal anything of value from the city. Howe moves right along; In the context of the war, he feels, it was only one of many important military turning points, some of which involved mass killings of innocent (and guilty) people. At this point, making biased edits to the article, either to justify the killings, deny that they happened... or, on the other hand, to say they were unjustified acts of pointless slaughter, does not help readers who are trying to understand the events and their context in history. What would be more helpful would be to add references to more primary sources, so readers can read and decide for themselves.
User:Greek1232 15 ,August 2012 18:00 Hmm..I would say that the article is not close to the truth...i was not present at Tripolitsa but two of my ancestors were there and the stories i have heard are really different from arms and legs cutting...If the writer-composer of this article does not agree with the stories i know its ok..But he must know more about the historians he trust in order to tell somehting close to the historical truth(which nobody knows by the way)...But first let me tell you that general Theodoros Kolokotronis who was present at Tripoli i9n the siege and the "massacre" does not say in any spot of his memoirs about tortures and arms-legs cutting...I keep telling that because it seems silly a thing like that to vbe written cause this is a way the Turks used to execute many of Greeks in the past as well as the Romans did..Never heard however something like that in the modern Greek history...By the way Thomas Slavos was executed this way and some others too...To continue you refer to things said or written by6 foreign generals present...Where exactly did you read that foreign generals where to a secondary Ottoman city in the event of the siege by the Greeks in 1821??You may have read that in the historians you refer to in the comments...Just know that we cannot ,as writers ,compose articles and demand from the others to respect them when they lean on three writers or more for whom the two live almost one century away frtom what they describe and not give attention to the things written from both sides , even if things are written only by Greeks about that.. Finally its absolutely in human nature to commit thing like some of the ones described with the specific backstage of this epoc...If some invaders kill your mother, you father, your childer your wife,rape your mother yopur wife ecven your children, if yopu are not allowed to educate your children and not freely believe in any religion you want,if your kids are kidnapped and converted to sworn enemies of you and all these toprtures happen for 4 centuries then yes....its in human nature to commit massacres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greek1232 ( talk • contribs) 15:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC) ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Kekrops the aim of this article is to talk about the massacre not about the siege of the city as it is opened in relation with the massacres that occured following the outbreak of the greek revolt..Stop changing its name then..I dont go and say Siege of Chıos, right? And by any respect sıege was not an important success as there wasnt any significant ottoman military within the city they were mostly mere civilians..-- laertes d 14:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Let me explain it again,
Clear enough? -- laertes d 23:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Kekrops, first do not change the content, for instance do not erase the sentences that i completed about the massacres even though you dont agree with the title..
Actually that is incorrect that Greek historiography does not mention the massacre-- I have been the Tripoli museum which has a plaque about the massacres of civilians there. What is historically significant about the Fall of Tripoli is not that civilians were killed (this had no bearing on the outcome of the war) but that the last and most important Turkish stronghold was in Greek hands.
Please, author of the article make a proper list of sources or delete the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stamatisg ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Should this article be called Siege of Tripolitsa is instead of the Fall of Tripolitsa and include the battles anf the siege? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyriakos ( talk • contribs) 10:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The excerpt of the primary painting designed to draw the reader's attention to a detail of this painting appears like sheer editorializing, and adds no new or compelling information, or, to my taste, emphasis to the article so far. Indeed, it is condescending, presuming, as it does, that the reader did not already notice the destruction thus summarized in the text. A guide in a museum might do that to a busload of overwhelmed tourists, but the point is evident upon arrival to the article page. Slapping on visual chartjunk does little to encourage the thoughtful reader to understand and appreciate the primary sources quoted in that section, and explain to him/herself what actually happened. I should propose to delete it. Cuzkatzimhut ( talk) 20:20, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I've added the 1828 massacre perpertrated by Ibrahim, based on: Arnakis, George G. (1969). The Ottoman Empire and the Balkan States to 1900. Vol. 1, The Near East in Modern Times. The Pemberton Press,. p. 163. "Several towns, of which Tripolitsa was the most important, were destroyed by Ibrahim's forces, and the people were massacred or sold as slaves.". In case a couple of 1821 era memoirs didn't mention this specific event this can't mean that it didn't happen. As far as I know Arnakis is a well established academic. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I can only assume that the recent edits were part of typical national-pov editting. The fate of the Muslim Albanian garrison is well described in the article and it's well sourced: The city was taken before the 2,500 Albanian had departed, but still they had a safe passage out of the Peloponnese a few days after the fall. On the other hand the inlines provided here [ [1]] claim nothing about Albanians massacred in Tripolitsa and the editor in question is welcomed to provide an explanation about this. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:02, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
There is also an account by Leake, which confirms Kolokotronis' successful negotiations to save the Muslim Albanian garisson (Turco-Albanians in contemporary sources):
"The Albanian inhabitants of Tripolis — Leake says one fifth of the population of Greece was Albanian — were escorted by Kolokotronis's men to the other side of the Gulf of Corinth where, once free, they committed atrocities.
[ "committed+atrocities.+These+Albanian"&dq="committed+atrocities.+These+Albanian"&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAGoVChMIg-69-IrUyAIVxEwUCh2SNwxo] Alexikoua ( talk) 17:27, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I still wonder how the following text can mean that Albanians were also among the victims in Tripolis:
On the Greek side, a case in point is the atrocious onslaught of the Greeks and Hellenised Christian Albanians against the city of Tripolitza in October 1821, which is justified by the Greeks ever since as the almost natural and predictable outcome of more than ‘400 years of slavery and dudgeon’. All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821 is unsaid and forgotten, a case of ethnic cleansing through sheer slaughter (St Clair 2008: 1-9, 41-46) as are the atrocities committed in Moldavia (were the “Greek Revolution” actually started in February 1821) by prince Ypsilantis.
Actually the text doesn't claim anything about the Albanian defenders of Tripolitsa, who in fact were the only Muslims saved during the fall of the city. In general When an author states "all over Peloponesse" this doesn't necesarry mean Tripolitsa too. I can only assume that Resnari just initiated a new national & poorly cited agenda in this case. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
"On the Greek side, a case in point is the atrocious onslaught of the Greeks and Hellenised Christian Albanians against the city of Tripolitza in October 1821, which is justified by the Greeks ever since as the almost natural and predictable outcome of more than ‘400 years of slavery and dudgeon’. All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821 is unsaid and forgotten, a case of ethnic cleansing through sheer slaughter (St Clair 2008: 1-9, 41-46) as are the atrocities committed in Moldavia (were the “Greek Revolution” actually started in February 1821) by prince Ypsilantis."
And also
Andromedas, John N. (1976). "Maniot folk culture and the ethnic mosaic in the southeast Peloponnese”. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. 268. (1): 200. "In 1821, then, the ethnic mosaic of the southeastern Peloponnese (the ancient Laconia and Cynouria) consisted of Christian Tsakonians and Albanians on the east, Christian Maniats and Barduniotes, and Moslem Albanian Barduniotes in the southwest, and an ordinary Greek Christian population running between them. In 1821, with a general Greek uprising impending, rumors of a “Russo-Frankish” naval bombardment caused the “Turkish” population of the southeastern Peloponnese to seek refuge in the fortresses of Monevasia, Mystra, and Tripolitza. Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza. The origin of this rumor was the firing of a salute by a sea captain named Frangias in honor of a Maniat leader known as “the Russian Knight.” Some Moslems in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight the whole of the southeastern Peloponnese was cleared of “Turks” of whatever linguistic affiliation. This situation was sealed by the ultimate success of the Greek War for Independence. The Christian Albanians, identifying with their Orthodox coreligionists and with the new nationstate, gradually gave up the Albanian language, in some instances deliberately deciding not to pass it on to their children."
First off, not sure why you deleted the Arvanites participation in siege and events following sentence from the article. Heraclides states that bit outright and should stay. Secondly Andromedas points to Muslim Albanians from Vardhounia heading to and seeking refuge in Tripolitza in sizable numbers. Those people after all did not go anywhere unless you have a source for that and where there for the final onslaught. The Muslims of Tripolitza are idenfitied as having Muslim Albanians at that point in time. I will remove the word Turks as Heraclidies just mentions those communities massacred everywhere as opposed to Tripolitsa outright. Some more clarification is needed then about Albanian Muslim refugees fleeing to Tripolitsa then. When the city fell Muslim Albanians where present. Also the primary source below citing Kolokotronis memoirs states:
"Inside the town they had begun to massacre. ... I rushed to the palace ... "If you wish to hurt these Albanians,"
Kolokotronis, a witness to the events refers to those people as Albanians. I doubt that was in reference the Arvanites, unless there was some kind of loos in translation. Resnjari ( talk) 17:46, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Those massacred where not just defenders, but civilians. Before i even made additions that was outlined. Like i said all where included in that massacre. Andromedas states outright that Albanian Muslims from Vardounia fled to Tripolitsa. That is cited. I stand by that source and made changes according to that. The other stuff i was referring was already in the article which serves as corroboration since its been discussed. Kolokotronis in his memoirs in that passage does not distinguish from defenders or civilians. All were massacred. None of the sources do, so far used in the article. If you have good sources distinguishing that, use them. Go for it and put them with inline citation like i have done. I am all for it. As for "you do nothing more than flooding the talkpage", again your opinion. This is the talk page designed for discussion of issues like this. I am discussing and showing specific points relating to the matter. Wikipedia states that discussion can be had about a matter if it relates to the topic. Resnjari ( talk) 18:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I rushed to the place. The affair of the Albanians had been settled in my tent three days previously. Upon reaching the fort I found that the Greeks were endeavouring to attack those Albanians. "If you wish to hurt these Albanians," I cried, "kill me rather; for whilst I am a living man, whoever first makes the attempt, him will I kill the first." I then went in front of them with my body-guard, and had a conversation with the two leaders, Veli Bey and Limas Bey, and demanded two
hostages on their side, when I gave up their property to them, which amounted to as much as thirteen animals could be laden with. The chief men among all the Greeks had joined in this treaty. I was faithful to my word of honour. I took Koliopoulos from the Albanians, and gave them Giannaki Kolokotrones, Chrystakes, and Basil Alonisthiotes as hostages in his stead.
I ordered Koliopoulos, with three hundred men, to escort them, and he accompanied them to Kalavryta and Vostitsa, and then returned.
It seems that the Albanians you claimed as massacred have been savely accompanied out of the battlefield. I can only hope you stop whith this continuous national pov by claiming that non-existent events were history. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:55, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Towards the end of April 1821 an Albanian chief, Elmaz Bey, had been sent to the Morea to reinforce Tripolitsa with 1,700 men. They left the city during the assault and were allowed to establish their quarters in the camp previously occupied by Kolokotronis. From there they took off for Vostitsa, escorted by 500 Greeks, and then returned to Albania.
There is no claim about Albanians that did not followed their leader and insisted to stay in the besieged town. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:52, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
As scholarship does not cover the fate of the Muslim Albanian population, i will adjust for the time being and remove Albanians. Turks stay. I will also add in a sentance however that Albanian Muslims from Vardounia came to seek refuge in Tripoltisa.
Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza. The origin of this rumor was the firing of a salute by a sea captain named Frangias in honor of a Maniat leader known as “the Russian Knight.” Some Moslems in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight the whole of the southeastern Peloponnese was cleared of “Turks” of whatever linguistic affiliation.
I can't see somewhere Andromedas specifically claiming something about the victims of the Siege of Tripolis. By the way, how you claim that the barduniotes were non-combatants? Alexikoua ( talk) 20:52, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I fixed it. They fled there and where present during the siege. Still on a personal note, curious as to what happened to the Albanian Muslim Vardounotes population ? Resnjari ( talk) 21:06, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting. I was just looking before and there is no article on the region of Vardounia itself. What is the proper name of the region in Greek if times permits for writing one up as a starter for the rest to fill in. I keep seeing Bardounia and Vardounia in various Greek sources and in some both ! In Albanian they call it Bardhunj, well that's the form that Fatos Rrapaj recorded from some of their descendants that were amongst the Cham refugees strictly from the coastal villages of Arpica (now: Perdhika) and Arila (Arilas) in Thesprotia. He recalled narratives that some settled there after fleeing the Peloponnese. In songs he recorded from those villages (the refugee population from there, they are the only songs that talk about Bubulima, Ali Farmaqi, Kolokotronis etc. I have also seen conflicting information that they where either local Arvanites who went Muslim or some Muslim Albanians brought later or even a mixture of both populations. Resnjari ( talk) 21:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
However as noticed in the background section a brief explanation is need about who committed the massacre of 1770 in the same city. Any thoughts? Alexikoua ( talk) 06:03, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Για την κατάπνιξη της επανάστασης κατήλθαν στίφη Αλβανών, τα οποία κατέλυσαν το κράτος του οθωμανικού νόμου και επέδειξαν απερίγραπτη θηριωδία. Τις ατυχείς πολεμικές επιχειρήσεις διαδέχονταν πράξεις ωμότητας και εκδίκησης εκ μέρους των μουσουλμάνων, ως συνέβη στην Τριπολιτσά, όπου τη Μ Δευτέρα 29 Μαρτίου/9 Απριλίου 1770 εσφάγησαν περίπου 2000 κάτοικοι. Μεταξύ των θυμάτων ήταν και ο μητροπολίτης Άνθιμος (Βίρβογλης) οποίος ανασκολοπίστηκε μπροστά στο σεράηι με διαταγή του μουσελίμη. Την ίδια τύχη είχε και ο ανηψιός του προεστός Γ. Βίρβογλης, ενώ τ' αδέλφια του τελευταίου Αλέξανδρος, Στέφανος και Νικόλαος απαγχονήστικαν στην αγορά της πόλης. Οι οικίες των εκτελεσθέντων στην Τριπολιτσά εκάησαν και οι περιουσίες τους δημεύτηκαν. Θύμα των Αλβανών υπήρξε το 1779 ο προεστός του Αγίου Πέτρου Ανάγν. Κοντός , παππούς του ομόνυμου απομνημονευτή της επανάστασης του 1821
Although Albanian mercenaries were the ones that created chaos and anarchy in Tripolitsa, the author uses the general term "Muslims" to define the perpetrators of the massacre of 2,000 inhabitants. Thus, it would be not appropriate to claim that Turks or Albanians were the perpetrators, a reader can easily assume that they propably committed these attroticies, but if the reference states something was done by Muslims any change is OR. Thus, you are kindly advised to avoid OR too, especially about this kind of topic. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:54, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
@ Leonidas30000: I tried including the link in my rv reason but it was altogether too long and was excluded. Let me include all of it here. Again, per WP:NOTYOUTUBE such lengthy YouTube videos are not appropriate for Wikipedia. Regardless, the segment you forwarded me to refers to the memoirs of Kolokotronis who does indeed mention 32,000 as a number, but this is deemed an exaggeration by both contemporary scholars of his, as well as modern ones. For example, Philemon, Simopoulos, Trikoupis, and Stathakopoulos among others actually consider 10,000 more close to the truth. There is actually a very elaborate article by Stathakopoulos which explains in detail what happened to the non-Christian populations of Tripolitsa. You can read it here, https://www.huffingtonpost.gr/entry/ti-eyinan-oi-moesoelmanoi-sten-ellada-meta-to-1821_gr_5c937c98e4b0d952b22401e5 Demetrios1993 ( talk) 21:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Funny how the claimed stable version appears to be mostly the same disputed edit made by a sockpuppet, and certainly was never stable since it was immediately reverted. FDW777 ( talk) 18:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
@ 0IAlIOIIAI0: Neither of the two cited sources say anything of Christians being massacred inside Tripoli. You (and whoever wrote it in the first place) probably misunderstood what Andromedas (1976) wrote about the Muslims from Bardunia:
Some Muslims in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity.
This quote refers to the Christianization of the Muslim Barduniotes that chose to remain. I don't see any quote that refers to a massacre of Christians inside Tripoli. Also, you reverted the reuse of Bowman's reference that i did, which by the way requires an archived URL, since the current link is dead. Please revert yourself. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 15:26, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
In the three days following the city's capture, the Muslims (Turks and others) and the Jewish inhabitants of Tripolitsa were exterminated.
Thus almost overnight, the Greeks cleared the whole of southeastern Peloponnese of "Turks", regardless of linguistic affiliation, is obviously used in the context of religious affiliation; hence why the quote says
regardless of linguistic affiliation. The term " Turk", has been commonly used by non-Muslim Balkan people (which includes the author) to denote all Muslims in the region, regardless of their ethno-linguistic background (not regardless of religious affiliation as you claimed). Furthermore, the use of "Greek" by the author, is written in two obvious contexts; an ethnic one as he describes the demography of the Peloponnese at the time, and a unitary revolutionary one (regardless of ethnicity) as he refers to the instigators of the massacre.
The wider and broader meaning, that appears in the same reference in the wikipedia source to support your assumption has been emphatically ignored. Specifically the same page also mentions {{ Turk}}. The term "Turk" has been widely used in the past to refer to the Turkish_Empire which has also been called Turkish_Empire. The fact that the URL Turkish_Empire redirects to the Turkish_Empire strongly supports this. The source comes from a time (1976) where the term was still used, hence the term "Turks" can mean the subjects of the Turkish Empire. In the context, it can mean the supporters or authority holders of the Ottoman empires.
Even if the word "Turk" was used like that, it could have an informal and pejorative meaning, it would be an Ethnic_slur. A use very unlikely to be found in an academic source in English and very old one. Seeing that a similar term was used from 1715 , in particular Turco-Albanians it really evident that this is an old meaning, perhaps only applicable in the context of the Ottoman Empire. The spelling is different too.
Picking this particularly specific meaning over the wider, more formal meaning can only be WP:OR, assumption, or personal preference. In any case, assuming that the word is used as Turk is broader and hence more accurate. Finally, the most precise description and formal approach would be to use the broader possible references in the opening sentence to mention the event and then present the information about the victims. This is because the article is about the siege of tripolitsa. So the first information piece should be that there was a massacre, then present the information on the victims. I would advise that this approach is followed, since you are vigorously patrolling any changes to this article.
In 1821, then, the ethnic mosaic of the southeastern Peloponnese (the ancient Laconia and Cynouria) consisted of Christian Tsakonians and Albanians on the east, Christian Maniats and Barduniotes, and Moslem Albanian Barduniotes in the southwest, and an ordinary Greek Christian population running between them.
In 1821, with a general Greek uprising impending, rumors of a "Russo-Frankish" naval bombardment caused the "Turkish" population of the southeastern Peloponnese to seek refuge in the fortresses of Monemvasia, Mystra, and Tripolitza. Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic-stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza.
Some Moslems in Bardunia, and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight, the Greeks cleared the whole of southeastern Peloponnese of "Turks", regardless of linguistic affiliation.
Christian Tsakonians and Albanians on the east, Christian Maniats and Barduniotes, and Moslem Albanian Barduniotes in the southwest, and an ordinary Greek Christian population running between them.,. 0IAlIOIIAI0 ( talk) 07:41, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
The scholarly community specializing in Ottoman studies has of late virtually banned the use of "Turkey", "Turks", and "Turkish" from acceptable vocabulary, declaring "Ottoman" and its expanded use mandatory and permitting its "Turkish" rival only in linguistic and philological contexts.
One of the worst atrocities, in terms of ferocity and number of victims, took place after the fall of Tripolitsa in September 1821. In the words of Alison Phillips: "the other atrocities of the Greeks paled before the awful scenes which followed the storming of Tripolitsa." In the heart of Morea, home to the Ottoman pasha (governor) of the region, Tripolitsa was estimated to have a population of 15,000 people before the Greek revolution that included 7,000 Muslims and 1,000 Greek-speaking (Romaniote) Jews. With the start of the revolution most of the Orthodox Christians fled the town, and the Muslims of the surrounding regions of Mistras, Bardounia, Leondari and Fanari, along with 9,000 Muslim troops, sought protection inside the walls of the citadel. It is estimated that approximately 25,000 souls were inside the citadel in the summer of 1821. Famine, disease, and fighting had thinned the population, yet it is believed that approximately 8,000 Muslims of every age and sex, but mostly women and children, perished when the Greeks sacked the citadel.
it is believed that approximately 8,000 Muslims of every age and sex, but mostly women and children, perished when the Greeks sacked the citadel. He doesn't say anything about a massacre of Ottoman Christians, nor does any other source in the article; this is purely an assumption of yours. If not, then show me a reliable source that says that Ottoman Christians were targeted as well during the sack of Tripolitsa. There is nothing subjective in stating the obvious fact that Muslims were targeted because they were Muslims. We have a whole article about the persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction. Here is another source talking about the identity of the victims; namely "Terrible Fate: Ethnic Cleansing in the Making of Modern Europe" (2013) by Benjamin Lieberman; page 9:
The fall of the Turkish fortress of Tripolitsa in the central Morea on October 5, 1821, brought the single worst massacre of the war. ... At least 8,000 Muslims and Jews died at Tripolitsa alone.
There is nothing subjective in stating the obvious fact that Muslims were targeted because they were Muslims.Is particularly wrong. The majority of the victims were Muslims, however your assumption that the reason of the siege and conflict was the religion of the inhabitants of Tripolitsa is completely wrong and misleading. The whole article is written in a similar, religious centric, tone that is far from accurate and neutral.
The siege of Tripolitsa, also called the fall of Tripolitsa (Greek: Άλωση της Τριπολιτσάς, romanized: Álosi tis Tripolitsás, Greek pronunciation: [ˈalosi tis tripoliˈt͡sas]) also known in Turkish sources as the Tripolitsa massacre (Turkish: Tripoliçe Katliamı)
In Greece and in the Greek language, the same belief was held about Turks_(term_for_Muslims), that they had essentially "become Turks", while tourkalvanoi ("Turco-Albanians") became a common term for Muslim Albanians who had been a significant minority in the country.
The scope of this article is the siege of Tripolitsa ( Tripoli) and the subsequent massacre of its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants.
There is nothing subjective in stating the obvious fact that Muslims were targeted because they were Muslims.includes assumptions on the causes of the siege. Please, take into account and keep in mind that there is no dispute regarding the religion of the majority of the victims. You keep citing resources that say that. This is known and expected for Tripolitsa, the capital of an Ottoman Eyalet of Moreas. This is why other, information regarding language, ethnicity, social status, economic status, would greatly contribute to tell the story of the victims.
I include citations, because what you discuss falls under WP:OR, and as editors here in Wikipedia, the content we add has to be verifiable through reliable sources. Furthermore, the title of the thread was referring to Christians, because that was the original issue, per the edits you were making ( diff1, diff2).
I never claimed that the reason of the siege was the religion of the inhabitants of Tripolitsa, but that in the subsequent massacre, non-Christian groups such as Muslims (majority) and Jews (minority) were targetted; that's what i wrote above, and is supported by reliable sources. By the way, the reason of the siege was that Tripolitsa acted as the administrative centre of the Ottomans in the Peloponnese, and contrary to what you write, it is already mentioned in the article, under the "Background" section; Situated in the middle of Peloponnese, Tripolitsa was the pre-eminent town in southern Greece and the administrative centre for Ottoman rule in the Peloponnese, which made it an important target for the Greek revolutionaries. Many rich Turks and Jews lived there, together with Ottoman refugees, such as Turks and Albanians from Vardounia (Βαρδούνια), who had been driven there by the outbreak of the revolt and escaped massacres in the country's southern districts.
You also write the following, So what does the author mean with "regardless of linguistic affiliation" what was the language of the victims? Why is this not included in the text?
Andromedas (1976), which is the source you refer to, doesn't describe the massacre of Tripolitsa, nor its victims; that's why it will be replaced by more relevant citations. The quote "regardless of linguistic affiliation" by Andromedas, is a reference to the Muslim refugees of southeastern Peloponnese. Again, as shown in the previous quote i shared, and contrary to what you claim, it is also already included in the article.
You write the following, the article is not neutral and of low quality
. The article is fine from a
WP:NPOV perspective. Furthermore, of course it isn't considered a
featured article, but that doesn't make it of low quality; it is normal. I have no problem with its expansion, but personally i don't have the time to do it properly. Look for example how more detailed the respective Greek and French (happens to be a
WP:FA) articles are. For now, a good remedy for this would be to add the respective translation template (
Template:Expand Greek), in case someone has the time and the will to work on it.
You write that [t]he scope of the article, is the events of the Siege/Massacre of Tripolitsa
; this is no different from what i wrote. Furthermore, i already told you that my reference to Muslims being targeted pertained to the massacre, not the siege. You also write, regarding the majority of the victims being Muslims, that [t]his is known and expected for Tripolitsa, the capital of an Ottoman Eyalet of Moreas.
Not really, because if you look at the more detailed Greek article, it says that Muslims made up approximately 1/4-1/2 of the town's population prior of the siege, and if you look at Katsikas (2021) that i shared above, with the start of the revolution, most of the Orthodox Christians fled the town, while the Muslims of the surrounding regions of Mystras, Bardounia, Leondari and Fanari, along with 9,000 Muslim troops, sought protection inside the walls of the citadel.
Demetrios1993 (
talk) 13:06, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
δύναμη των ενόπλων ήταν 10.000 άντρες, Αλβανοί, Ασιάτες και Πελοποννήσιοι Οθωμανοί.which translates to "The armed forces (of the city) were 10.000 men, Albanians, Asians and Peloponnese Ottomans". The greek version also mentions that the leaders of the armed forces were all Peloponnesian Ottomans. To my understanding it would be more interesting to
Following the capture of the city by the Greek revolutionary forces, a massacre of its population occurred.
Tripolitsa was an important target, because it was the administrative center of the Ottomans in the Peloponnese.
Tripolitsa was the capital of the Morea_Eyalet since 1786. The Morea Eaylet was a first-level province of the Ottoman Empire, centred on the Peloponnese peninsula in southern Greece.
Τέσσερα μεγάλα σώματα πολιορκητών σχημάτιζαν ημικύκλιο γύρω από την Τριπολιτσά. Το αριστερό κατείχε ο Κολοκοτρώνης με 2.500 άντρες, το δεξιό ο Γιατράκος με 1.500, το κέντρο με 1.000 ο Αναγνωσταράς και πίσω από το δεξιό και το κέντρο βρισκόταν ο Πετρόμπεης Μαυρομιχάλης με 1.500 άντρες. Οι δρόμοι προς Άργος και Λεοντάρι φυλάγονταν από 150 και τριακόσιους άντρες αντίστοιχα.[30] Αρχιστράτηγος ανακηρύχθηκε ο Πετρόμπεης[23] υπό την υπέρτατη ηγεσία του Δημητρίου Υψηλάντη, αλλά πραγματικός αρχηγός ήταν ο Κολοκοτρώνης.[31]
Μέχρι τον Αύγουστο λάμβαναν χώρα ακροβολισμοί μεταξύ των εμπολέμων, στους οποίους υπερτερούσαν οι Έλληνες όταν είχαν ν’ αντιμετωπίσουν το πεζικό των Τούρκων. Αλλά κι όταν επετίθετο το ιππικό τους, αποσύρονταν στους πρόποδες των βουνών και πάλι προξενούσαν βλάβη στους Τούρκους προστατευμένοι από την μορφολογία του εδάφους.[32]
Τον Αύγουστο μαθεύτηκε ότι ο Κιαμήλμπεης θα μετέφερε ενισχύσεις και πολεμοφόδια στην επίσης πολιορκούμενη Κόρινθο. Ο Κολοκοτρώνης διέταξε κι ανοίχθηκε τάφρος (γράνα) πάνω στον δρόμο που θ’ ακολουθούσαν οι Τούρκοι, αλλά ο Κιαμήλμπεης δεν βγήκε τελικά. Βγήκαν όμως στις 10 Αυγούστου πάνω από τέσσερις χιλιάδες Τούρκοι και συγκέντρωσαν άφθονα τρόφιμα από τα γύρω χωριά. Στην επιστροφή τους προσβλήθηκαν από τους ενεδρεύοντες στην τάφρο Έλληνες, υπέστησαν βαριές απώλειες και όλες οι τροφές και τα ζώα έπεσαν στα χέρια των πολιορκητών. Η μάχη αυτή, της Γράνας λεγόμενη, έφερε σε απόγνωση τους πεινασμένους ήδη Τούρκους.[33]
Τέλη Αυγούστου έφτασε από την Μασσαλία με πλοίο του ο Σκώτος φιλέλληνας Τόμας Γκόρντον, με Έλληνες και φιλέλληνες εθελοντές, τρία πυροβόλα και εξακόσια τουφέκια. Αλλά το πυροβολικό των Ελλήνων πολύ μικρή ζημιά μπόρεσε να προκαλέσει στον εχθρό, παρά τις προσπάθειες των ξένων εθελοντών, μεταξύ των οποίων και ο Ρεϊμπώ.[34]
Τότε ο Υψηλάντης, και ενώ είχαν ήδη εκδηλωθεί επιδημίες στην πόλη, πρότεινε παράδοση της πόλης υπό ευνοϊκούς όρους, αλλά αυτή απερρίφθη υπεροπτικά από τους Τούρκους.[35]
Στις 26 Αυγούστου διαδόθηκε η φήμη ότι ο τουρκικός στόλος έφερνε στην Πάτρα 10.000 στρατιώτες για απόβαση, ενώ στην πραγματικότητα είχε μόνο 1.000 Αλβανούς.[36] Δεδομένου ότι υπήρχε φόβος ότι τα στρατεύματα αυτά θα ενίσχυαν την πολιορκούμενη Τριπολιτσά, ο Υψηλάντης εξεστράτευσε στον Κορινθιακό κόλπο με 500 άντρες του Κολοκοτρώνη, μεταξύ των οποίων ο ανιψιός του Αποστόλης και οι γιοι του Πάνος και Γενναίος. Ο Οθωμανικός στόλος αγκυροβόλησε στη Ζάκυνθο, εφοδιάστηκε από τις ουδέτερες Αρχές του νησιού και στις 7 Σεπτεμβρίου κατέπλευσε στην Πάτρα. Περί τα μέσα Σεπτεμβρίου έγινε απόβαση 700 Αλβανών του στόλου, οι οποίοι μπήκαν στο εγκαταλελειμμένο Αίγιο και το κατέκαψαν, ενώ διασκορπίστηκαν σε όλη την επαρχία λαφυραγωγούντες. Στις 19 Σεπτεμβρίου ο τουρκικός στόλος έπλευσε προς το Γαλαξίδι, όπου αιχμαλώτισε 34 πλοία, κατέστρεψε τα υπόλοιπα, έσφαξε λίγους γέροντες που είχαν μείνει στην πόλη και την έκαψε. Τελικά όμως ο στόλος δεν ανακούφισε τους πολιορκημένους της Τριπολιτσάς. Σκοπός του ήταν να διευκολύνει την μετάβαση στρατευμάτων προς την Πελοπόννησο αλλά η εκστρατεία αυτή απέτυχε λόγω της ήττας των Τούρκων στην μάχη των Βασιλικών.[37] Εν τω μεταξύ παραδόθηκαν στους Έλληνες τα φρούρια της Μονεμβασιάς και του Ναβαρίνου.
Δεδομένου ότι «η εκ περάτων της Πελοποννήσου υπερσωρευθείσα πληθύς ηπείλει διαρπαγήν γενικήν» κατά Φιλήμονα, αποφασίστηκε ότι οι στρατιώτες, οι οποίοι δεν είχαν πληρωθεί από την αρχή της πολιορκίας, θα λάμβαναν τα δύο τρίτα της λείας ενώ το υπόλοιπο ένα τρίτο θα πήγαινε στο Εθνικό Θησαυροφυλάκιο.[38] Η μοιρασιά μεταξύ των ανδρών θα ήταν ισότιμη: η οπισθοφυλακή θα λάμβανε όσα και η εμπροσθοφυλακή. Μερίδια είχαν προβλεφθεί ακόμα και για τις οικογένειες των νεκρών κατά τη διάρκεια της μάχης. Παράλληλα θεσπίστηκαν ειδικές αμοιβές για κάθε αιχμάλωτο Τούρκο,[39] ενώ μέχρι τότε πληρώνονταν μόνο για τα κομμένα κεφάλια που έφερναν στο στρατόπεδο (τρεις πιάστρες). Οι Κεχαγιάμπεης, Κιαμήλμπεης και άλλοι επίσημοι Τούρκοι επικηρύχθηκαν.[38]0IAlIOIIAI0 ( talk) 14:46, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I believe that more details must be given for the siege (that is the title of the article) .The massacre must be described in a diferrent article. Jestmoon(talk) 16:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
I suspect that 23.09 is on the julian calendar, since I have two books with the dates 23.09 and 05.10. pietro 151.29.78.113 ( talk) 19:13, 18 March 2024 (UTC)