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I wouldn't call it a Montenegrin/Serbian victory. First of all, the number of Serbs wasn't very significant compared to the Montenegrins. And the important fact is that Serbs gave up on Skadar and withdrew their divisions before the Montenegrins managed to capture the city.
Then why is Montenegrin flag located on fortes if it is Serbian victory? Rave92( talk) 14:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
http://www.glas-javnosti.rs/clanak/glas-javnosti-02-12-2007/knjaz-nikola-stupa-na-presto-crne-gore
Check out this link. It's Serbian newspaper article about King Nicholas. And here's the part about siege of Skadar:
Borba za Skadar
Primirje sa Turskom potpisano je 3. decembra, ali su borbe za Skadar obnovljene izmeÄu 7. i 9. februara 1913. godine. Srpska vlada uputila je specijalni korpus sa artiljerijom kao pomoÄ Crnoj Gori, ali su velike sile u oĆĄtrom demarĆĄu zahtevale da se odustane od opsade Skadra, te su se srpske trupe povukle. U crnogorske jadranske vode Äak je uplovilo osam ratnih brodova velikih sila. Crnogorske trupe koje su 10. aprila zauzele su Skadar, po nalogu velikih sila morale su se povuÄi, a u grad su 14. maja uĆĄle trupe meÄunarodnih snaga.
Translation
Fighting for Skadar
Ceasefire with Turkey was signed on 3rd December, but fightings for Skadar had been renewed between 7th and 9th february in 1913. Serbian goverment sent a special corpus with artillery as support to Montenegro, but great powers, in a firm demarche, demended the siege of Skadar to be ended, so Serbian troops withdrew. Eight war ships of great powers sailed into the Montenegrin Adriatic waters. Montenegrin troops, who took Skadar on 10th April, had to withdraw by the behest of great powers, and on 14th May international forces entered the city.
This was the first reference I ran onto. There is certainly a lot more, but I don't have the time to search for it. Maybe I'll do it later. For now, if anyone is willing he can do a little research, and confirm what I said. :) âPreceding unsigned comment added by 78.155.40.73 ( talk) 18:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
This is your final warning for removing referenced information, Rave92.
[1]
"22 April: Serbs conquer Shkoder"
I still do not see any references posted by you. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 19:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
"Montenegrins thought that they came out as a main victors from the both Balkan Wars despite the heavy casualties they suffered. However, the costly capture of Albanian town Shkoder (Skadar) was futile since Nicholas I was put under pressure by the Great Powers to hand it over to the international supervision. "
http://www.montenet.org/history/nikola.htm
Do you have scan copy of that mentioning of Serbian conquer, as I can't seem to find that book. Rave92( talk) 14:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
"No preview available - "
Rave92( talk) 16:35, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I can't, I am not sure why. Rave92( talk) 20:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
@Kansas Bear, it's a known fact that Serbs retreated before the fall of Skadar. The statement that the Serbs alone conquered Skadar is a complete nonsense. Their troops didn't even stay till the fall of Skadar. They retreated. Serbia didn't want a conflict with The Great Powers, who decided to give Skadar to Albania. Did you check out the newspaper article? It's Serbian newspaper. And there is no reason for them to deny their own succes if they had stayed there till the end. Here's the link to the front page: http://www.glas-javnosti.rs/ 95.155.59.105 ( talk) 15:40, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 11:24, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Siege of Shkoder â Siege of ShkodĂ«r â ShkodĂ«r (note: with a "Ă«") is the real name of the city. Thank you. kedadial 04:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC) Support: it's the correct spelling. Why couldn't you do it yourself, kedadi? -- sulmues ( talk) 13:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I just added a short lead section per WP:LEAD. I know nothing about the battle/siege, just cobbled the lead together from the rest of the article - experts please review and tweak as necessary. â ukexpat ( talk) 18:09, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page not moved as no concensus in 3 weeks. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 12:09, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Siege of ShkodĂ«r â
Siege of Scutari â Relisting again. There are some valid arguments here, and we need some participation. --
Orlady (
talk) 00:19, 10 September 2010 (UTC) â Relisting
 RonhjonesÂ
 (Talk) 21:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Google books results:
"Siege of Iskodra" 3 hits < "Siege of Shkodër" 47 hits < "Siege of Scutari" 678 hits. Takabeg ( talk) 12:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
See also a similar discussion at Talk:Siege of Pleven.
Siege of Scutari is common use for both 1478 siege and 1913 siege in English language. Takabeg ( talk) 13:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
The section "Battle" seems to make clear that the siege started in October 1912, and ended in April 1913.
However, the lead and the info box both gave the April date as the time the siege/battle happened.
Is this potentially wrong/misleading, or am I misunderstanding something?
If I am understanding it correctly, I propose it would be better for both lead and info box to give both the start and end dates, rather than only mentioning the end date as though it were the start date (or a one day battle). What do people think? -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 20:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The following edits of Vinnie007:
are performed without the slightest discussion, not even edit summaries.
Essad Pasha Toptani was loyal to the Ottoman Empire and considered Provisional government under Ismail Qemali "the personal creation of a number of men"
Toptani, Essad Pasha (April 16, 1919).
"Memorandum on Albania". Paris, France: Robert Elsie web site. governments ... in Vlora under the presidency of Ismail Kemal Bey ... was the personal creation of a number of men
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month=
(
help)
It is incorrect and misleading to state that he was soldier of the Provisional Government and that forces under his command were anything else but Ottoman forces.
Vinnie007, please revert your last edit and seek for consensus on the talk page if you want to perform such dramatic changes to the article.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Inconclusive [nb 1]
In these edits, usage of google translate was detected. Please remove them. Thank you. Takabeg ( talk) 20:51, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Total number of dead soldiers of Serbia and Montenegro during the the First Balkan War were about 5.000 (Serbia) and 2.836 (Montenegro) (see the article about the First Balkan War). In this article it is stated that there were 30.000 killed Serbian and Montenegrin soldiers (22.000+8.000) during this siege only. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 06:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
"10 thousand volunteers from Mirdite, led by General Essad Toptani managed to enter the city."
Essad Pasha defended the city after Riza Pasha was killed for almost three more months (January 30 â April 23).
He surrendered Shkoder to Montenegro only after its destiny was decided by Great Powers, after they forced Serbia to retreat and after it was obvious that Great Powers will not allow Montenegro to keep Shkoder. That way he saved many lives of his soldiers who would otherwise die defending the city without any reason. At the same time, he managed to get support of Serbia and Montenegro for new Kingdom of Albania which would gain Shkoder anyway. I can not imagine more clever move. What is the reason for absurd claim that Essad Pasha was a traitor?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
(Unindent)I would like the definition of betrayal from you guys. "April 21, 1913 ...Esad Pasha Toptani, now military governor of Shkoder, sent a message to the Montenegrin General to inform him off his intention to surrender to the king Nicholas of Montenegro the town of Shkodër and the whole of northern Albania as far as the river Drin, on conditions that he would be allowed to march freely into the interior of Albania...Furthermore Esad Pasha desired to receive Montenegrin recognition of himself as Prince of central Albania under the protection of Sultan of Turkey....April 23, 1913 ...As the result of Esad Pasha treachery the fortress of Shkoder was surrendered to Montenegro.....According to the terms of surrender settlement Esad Pasha accepted the sum of 10.000 sterling ...April 27, 1913 Esad Pasha declared himself as King of Albania in Lezhe........April 28, By unanimous decision the of the conference of ambassadors in London, the representatives notified King Nicholas of Montenegro that he had to give up city of Shkoder, but it was evident that only by military coercion could the order be inforced ...."" 1. October 14th Esad Pasha anounced ...the formation of a new government of his own at Durres with himself as President-apparently with the object of having himself elected as Prince of Albania- for the administration of the country between rivers Mat and Shkumbin...Esad Pasha informed the Internationl Comission of his decision... 2.....So
His plan didn't worked as he planned but he tried again...
Now what the heck?! This guy was selling part of his country (he wanted only central Albania while more extended borders were decided in the meantime) to the neighbors, while wanting to become prince of Albania under sultan (and what about Albanian independence). Surely he was not a TRAITOR to the Serbs, Montenegrin and Greeks(how could he being an Albanian), but it was a BIG ONE for the Albanians (and I am not including his later deeds. This kind of behavior should be reflected in the article. Aigest ( talk) 13:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I found additional source for this event. Memoirs of Montenegrin military officer Radule Simov BrajiÄiÄ: MOJI MEMOARI.
If Google Translate is not enough, I am willing to assist, though I will be at short wiki break, probably till next Monday.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Siege of Shkoder/Siege of Scutari in Google books.
Takabeg ( talk) 05:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that there should be an article on 1474 siege, but there isn't much information on this siege. It was fought between Venice and Ottoman Empire in period between 15 July and 28 August in 1474. Ottoman army had 80000 soldiers, who were led by Hadim Suleiman Pasha. Defending forces in the city had 13000-16000 soldiers, under the command of Antonio Loredan. Scutari was totally cut off of the Venetian Republic and they couldn't send any help, so they turned to Ivan Crnojevic, ruler of Montenegro, who was their ally. Ivan sent 8000 Montenegrins to Scutari to relieve the defenders. After the Ottomans found out of the movement of the Montenegrin army they sent 12000 of their soldiers to counter the Montenegrins. The armies met and fought at a mountainous area, south of the Skadar lake. After hearing the false reports of more Venetian reinforcements, Sultan Medmed II withdrew his army both from the side of the lake and walls of Scutari. Therefore, the siege failed. Ottoman forces had 7000 dead. Venetian and Montenegrin losses - unknown. â Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.155.4.220 ( talk) 17:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Siege of ShkodĂ«r â Siege of Scutari (1912â1913) â per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:USEENGLISH
It's very clear that the term "Siege of Shkodër" is not common name of thie historical event:
Siege of Scutari/Shkoder/Shkodra (1912â1913):
Now Siege of Scutari is used for the Siege of Scutari (1478).
Siege of Scutari/Shkoder/Shkodra (1478) (Google books):
We'd better change the title of Siege of Scutari to Siege of Scutari (1478).
And before you give your opinion, please read Wikipedia:I just don't like it.
Takabeg ( talk) 08:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 22:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I wouldn't call it a Montenegrin/Serbian victory. First of all, the number of Serbs wasn't very significant compared to the Montenegrins. And the important fact is that Serbs gave up on Skadar and withdrew their divisions before the Montenegrins managed to capture the city.
Then why is Montenegrin flag located on fortes if it is Serbian victory? Rave92( talk) 14:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
http://www.glas-javnosti.rs/clanak/glas-javnosti-02-12-2007/knjaz-nikola-stupa-na-presto-crne-gore
Check out this link. It's Serbian newspaper article about King Nicholas. And here's the part about siege of Skadar:
Borba za Skadar
Primirje sa Turskom potpisano je 3. decembra, ali su borbe za Skadar obnovljene izmeÄu 7. i 9. februara 1913. godine. Srpska vlada uputila je specijalni korpus sa artiljerijom kao pomoÄ Crnoj Gori, ali su velike sile u oĆĄtrom demarĆĄu zahtevale da se odustane od opsade Skadra, te su se srpske trupe povukle. U crnogorske jadranske vode Äak je uplovilo osam ratnih brodova velikih sila. Crnogorske trupe koje su 10. aprila zauzele su Skadar, po nalogu velikih sila morale su se povuÄi, a u grad su 14. maja uĆĄle trupe meÄunarodnih snaga.
Translation
Fighting for Skadar
Ceasefire with Turkey was signed on 3rd December, but fightings for Skadar had been renewed between 7th and 9th february in 1913. Serbian goverment sent a special corpus with artillery as support to Montenegro, but great powers, in a firm demarche, demended the siege of Skadar to be ended, so Serbian troops withdrew. Eight war ships of great powers sailed into the Montenegrin Adriatic waters. Montenegrin troops, who took Skadar on 10th April, had to withdraw by the behest of great powers, and on 14th May international forces entered the city.
This was the first reference I ran onto. There is certainly a lot more, but I don't have the time to search for it. Maybe I'll do it later. For now, if anyone is willing he can do a little research, and confirm what I said. :) âPreceding unsigned comment added by 78.155.40.73 ( talk) 18:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
This is your final warning for removing referenced information, Rave92.
[1]
"22 April: Serbs conquer Shkoder"
I still do not see any references posted by you. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 19:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
"Montenegrins thought that they came out as a main victors from the both Balkan Wars despite the heavy casualties they suffered. However, the costly capture of Albanian town Shkoder (Skadar) was futile since Nicholas I was put under pressure by the Great Powers to hand it over to the international supervision. "
http://www.montenet.org/history/nikola.htm
Do you have scan copy of that mentioning of Serbian conquer, as I can't seem to find that book. Rave92( talk) 14:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
"No preview available - "
Rave92( talk) 16:35, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I can't, I am not sure why. Rave92( talk) 20:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
@Kansas Bear, it's a known fact that Serbs retreated before the fall of Skadar. The statement that the Serbs alone conquered Skadar is a complete nonsense. Their troops didn't even stay till the fall of Skadar. They retreated. Serbia didn't want a conflict with The Great Powers, who decided to give Skadar to Albania. Did you check out the newspaper article? It's Serbian newspaper. And there is no reason for them to deny their own succes if they had stayed there till the end. Here's the link to the front page: http://www.glas-javnosti.rs/ 95.155.59.105 ( talk) 15:40, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 11:24, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Siege of Shkoder â Siege of ShkodĂ«r â ShkodĂ«r (note: with a "Ă«") is the real name of the city. Thank you. kedadial 04:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC) Support: it's the correct spelling. Why couldn't you do it yourself, kedadi? -- sulmues ( talk) 13:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I just added a short lead section per WP:LEAD. I know nothing about the battle/siege, just cobbled the lead together from the rest of the article - experts please review and tweak as necessary. â ukexpat ( talk) 18:09, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page not moved as no concensus in 3 weeks. Anthony Appleyard ( talk) 12:09, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Siege of ShkodĂ«r â
Siege of Scutari â Relisting again. There are some valid arguments here, and we need some participation. --
Orlady (
talk) 00:19, 10 September 2010 (UTC) â Relisting
 RonhjonesÂ
 (Talk) 21:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Google books results:
"Siege of Iskodra" 3 hits < "Siege of Shkodër" 47 hits < "Siege of Scutari" 678 hits. Takabeg ( talk) 12:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
See also a similar discussion at Talk:Siege of Pleven.
Siege of Scutari is common use for both 1478 siege and 1913 siege in English language. Takabeg ( talk) 13:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
The section "Battle" seems to make clear that the siege started in October 1912, and ended in April 1913.
However, the lead and the info box both gave the April date as the time the siege/battle happened.
Is this potentially wrong/misleading, or am I misunderstanding something?
If I am understanding it correctly, I propose it would be better for both lead and info box to give both the start and end dates, rather than only mentioning the end date as though it were the start date (or a one day battle). What do people think? -- Demiurge1000 ( talk) 20:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The following edits of Vinnie007:
are performed without the slightest discussion, not even edit summaries.
Essad Pasha Toptani was loyal to the Ottoman Empire and considered Provisional government under Ismail Qemali "the personal creation of a number of men"
Toptani, Essad Pasha (April 16, 1919).
"Memorandum on Albania". Paris, France: Robert Elsie web site. governments ... in Vlora under the presidency of Ismail Kemal Bey ... was the personal creation of a number of men
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month=
(
help)
It is incorrect and misleading to state that he was soldier of the Provisional Government and that forces under his command were anything else but Ottoman forces.
Vinnie007, please revert your last edit and seek for consensus on the talk page if you want to perform such dramatic changes to the article.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Inconclusive [nb 1]
In these edits, usage of google translate was detected. Please remove them. Thank you. Takabeg ( talk) 20:51, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Total number of dead soldiers of Serbia and Montenegro during the the First Balkan War were about 5.000 (Serbia) and 2.836 (Montenegro) (see the article about the First Balkan War). In this article it is stated that there were 30.000 killed Serbian and Montenegrin soldiers (22.000+8.000) during this siege only. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 06:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
"10 thousand volunteers from Mirdite, led by General Essad Toptani managed to enter the city."
Essad Pasha defended the city after Riza Pasha was killed for almost three more months (January 30 â April 23).
He surrendered Shkoder to Montenegro only after its destiny was decided by Great Powers, after they forced Serbia to retreat and after it was obvious that Great Powers will not allow Montenegro to keep Shkoder. That way he saved many lives of his soldiers who would otherwise die defending the city without any reason. At the same time, he managed to get support of Serbia and Montenegro for new Kingdom of Albania which would gain Shkoder anyway. I can not imagine more clever move. What is the reason for absurd claim that Essad Pasha was a traitor?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 11:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
(Unindent)I would like the definition of betrayal from you guys. "April 21, 1913 ...Esad Pasha Toptani, now military governor of Shkoder, sent a message to the Montenegrin General to inform him off his intention to surrender to the king Nicholas of Montenegro the town of Shkodër and the whole of northern Albania as far as the river Drin, on conditions that he would be allowed to march freely into the interior of Albania...Furthermore Esad Pasha desired to receive Montenegrin recognition of himself as Prince of central Albania under the protection of Sultan of Turkey....April 23, 1913 ...As the result of Esad Pasha treachery the fortress of Shkoder was surrendered to Montenegro.....According to the terms of surrender settlement Esad Pasha accepted the sum of 10.000 sterling ...April 27, 1913 Esad Pasha declared himself as King of Albania in Lezhe........April 28, By unanimous decision the of the conference of ambassadors in London, the representatives notified King Nicholas of Montenegro that he had to give up city of Shkoder, but it was evident that only by military coercion could the order be inforced ...."" 1. October 14th Esad Pasha anounced ...the formation of a new government of his own at Durres with himself as President-apparently with the object of having himself elected as Prince of Albania- for the administration of the country between rivers Mat and Shkumbin...Esad Pasha informed the Internationl Comission of his decision... 2.....So
His plan didn't worked as he planned but he tried again...
Now what the heck?! This guy was selling part of his country (he wanted only central Albania while more extended borders were decided in the meantime) to the neighbors, while wanting to become prince of Albania under sultan (and what about Albanian independence). Surely he was not a TRAITOR to the Serbs, Montenegrin and Greeks(how could he being an Albanian), but it was a BIG ONE for the Albanians (and I am not including his later deeds. This kind of behavior should be reflected in the article. Aigest ( talk) 13:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I found additional source for this event. Memoirs of Montenegrin military officer Radule Simov BrajiÄiÄ: MOJI MEMOARI.
If Google Translate is not enough, I am willing to assist, though I will be at short wiki break, probably till next Monday.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Siege of Shkoder/Siege of Scutari in Google books.
Takabeg ( talk) 05:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that there should be an article on 1474 siege, but there isn't much information on this siege. It was fought between Venice and Ottoman Empire in period between 15 July and 28 August in 1474. Ottoman army had 80000 soldiers, who were led by Hadim Suleiman Pasha. Defending forces in the city had 13000-16000 soldiers, under the command of Antonio Loredan. Scutari was totally cut off of the Venetian Republic and they couldn't send any help, so they turned to Ivan Crnojevic, ruler of Montenegro, who was their ally. Ivan sent 8000 Montenegrins to Scutari to relieve the defenders. After the Ottomans found out of the movement of the Montenegrin army they sent 12000 of their soldiers to counter the Montenegrins. The armies met and fought at a mountainous area, south of the Skadar lake. After hearing the false reports of more Venetian reinforcements, Sultan Medmed II withdrew his army both from the side of the lake and walls of Scutari. Therefore, the siege failed. Ottoman forces had 7000 dead. Venetian and Montenegrin losses - unknown. â Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.155.4.220 ( talk) 17:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Siege of ShkodĂ«r â Siege of Scutari (1912â1913) â per WP:COMMONNAME and Wikipedia:USEENGLISH
It's very clear that the term "Siege of Shkodër" is not common name of thie historical event:
Siege of Scutari/Shkoder/Shkodra (1912â1913):
Now Siege of Scutari is used for the Siege of Scutari (1478).
Siege of Scutari/Shkoder/Shkodra (1478) (Google books):
We'd better change the title of Siege of Scutari to Siege of Scutari (1478).
And before you give your opinion, please read Wikipedia:I just don't like it.
Takabeg ( talk) 08:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 22:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)