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Discussions:
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The result of the move request was: Page moved. The supporters of the move are arguing that "mafia" is ambiguous because it can also refer to various other criminal organizations than the original, Sicilian Mafia. Editors should decide whether mafia should be a dab page, a redirect to Sicilian Mafia, or something else. Ucucha 17:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Mafia → Sicilian Mafia — "Mafia" is now being used to refer to organized crime syndicates all over the world. Even in Italy, "mafia" is used for the Camorra, 'Ndrangheta, etc as well as Cosa Nostra in Sicily. Even the Direzione Investigativa Antimafia calls all Italian gangsters "mafiosi". Once upon a time, when you said "mafia" everyone knew you meant Sicily, but now you must be more specific. We should make the "Mafia" article a disambiguation page that links to all Italian OCGs, and rename this article "Sicilian Mafia". Kurzon ( talk) 09:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Giovanni Falcone: "While there was a time when people were reluctant to pronounce the word 'Mafia,' … nowadays people have gone so far in the opposite direction that it has become an overused term … I am no longer willing to accept the habit of speaking of the Mafia in descriptive and all-inclusive terms that make it possible to stack up phenomena that are indeed related to the field of organized crime but that have little or nothing in common with the Mafia." Falcone’s polemic was directed against those who freely and indiscriminately blend a criminal superelite originating in western Sicily, which today is widely known as Cosa Nostra, along with its equally renowned counterpart in the United States, with organized crime in general and even, in some cases, with ordinary crime. According to the most commonly accepted definition, Mafia corresponds to the regional criminality of Sicily, and Camorra corresponds to the regional criminality of Campania. (Salvatore Lupo, The History of the Mafia, New York: Columbia University Press, 2009 ISBN 978-0-231-13134-6, pp. 1-2). - DonCalo ( talk) 22:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I guess it is just "dumb Americans." - DonCalo ( talk) 22:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I support this move per common and even formal usage but the lack of consensus on what "Mafia" means if it's not only the Sicilian Mafia is troubling. (I don't have an answer either. Having Mafia as a disambiguation page works but it seems a little unsatisfying in this case.) However, the existence of the prominent (American) Mafia in an English-speaking country warrants a move per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. — AjaxSmack 16:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
There is no consensus on the move, so I reverted it. - DonCalo ( talk) 17:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
A wrong and sad decision. Yet another example of the increasing incompetence in Wikipedia. Admins now pretend to know it better than the scientific community. The line of reasoning by the one who requested the move was refuted. There was no clear consensus: five in favour and three strongly opposed. Even if unanimity is not required, this is not an example of clear consensus. Following the above misconstrued logic are we now going to rename the 'Ndrangheta into the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta and the Camorra into the Neapolitan Camorra? - DonCalo ( talk) 08:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to see more information on things like the 'DOM' or 'DON'. The heirarchy is not mentioned very much, nor the pattern of affiliation to a 'DON' or 'DOM' figurehead. -- Mnoon ( talk) 16:07, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Since the location of the Mafia page was not settled above, please discuss it at Talk:Mafia (disambiguation) if you care. — AjaxSmack 02:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
www.maffia.jordykroeze.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.72.29.128 ( talk • contribs) 01:05, 11 December 2011
"Appointments must absolutely be respected" is one of Lo Piccolo's ten commandments. Does "appointment" here mean rank or a rendez-vous? It could be either, as the Mafia demands both punctuality and obedience. I think it means rank, as punctuality is already covered by "always being available for Cosa Nostra". Kurzon ( talk) 00:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Mustache Pete is a pseudonym, MOS:BIO#Names, of Sicilian Mafia so I'm not sure why it has a separate article. We should be able to have a section in this article if the content supports it. I don't think every slang term for a subject needs to have it's own article. -- Hutcher ( talk) 18:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The term has to do with America more that Italy, hence the American spelling. If anything, it should redirect to the American Mafia. The term is significant because of the rift caused between the group and the "Young Turks" which led to the Castellammarese War.
Please: in it:wiki Mafia is an article for the world mafia. In en:wiki Sicilian Mafia is the only sicilian phenomenon. For the Sicilian Mafia in it:wiki there is Cosa Nostra. Please, do not change the link to it:wiki an other time. Thank you.-- 79.53.109.245 ( talk) 07:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
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The etymology section is totally incorrect and contains arbitrary speculation. The well known explanation which comes directly from a Sicilian viewpoint is that the entire mythology or origin of the Mafia in some form dates back to ancient times. It is a borrowed term that was commonly used to specifically refer to theft throughout the Hellenic world, most notably in Asia.
Rather than give credit to the Greek history of the words that translated to Mafia, which is clearly derived from the slang term maf' which is a shortened and archaic form of the Greek word for black or 'to blacken' (mav-ros {phonetic}); the Wikipedia editors would rather come up with some fantasy about the word originating from Arabic. It's total nonsense. This shows that Wikipedia at times is clueless and in fact belligerent, in a fight against the cultures that provided the historical foundation of successful civilization.
There is no mention of a historical link between the description of something being "black" or culturally dark and the same characterization used to describe criminal acts (or dark acts). (i.e. dark horse, black sheep, black magic, black death etc.)
Instead of including any factual reference, the article alludes to something that makes no sense. "Mafia means that criminals originally lived in caves and bragged about their crimes"? Thanks Wikipedia, I needed to hear a good joke.
There is an entire documented history going back to ancient times to describe and explain where the whole origin of the Mafia comes from and the article contains almost none of the facts
The identification of Sicilia region as the territory of pertinence of Mafia is highly disputable, since the judicial chronicles in Italy clearly show its presence and ramifications in other Central and Northern Italian regions, like Lombardia, Piemonte, etc. Therefore the map is giving a false and distorted information and should have to be updated accordingly.-- Ferdinando Scala ( talk) 20:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
I...uh...looked up this page and found a bunch of crap in the beginning, so I edited it a little with my completely amateur editing skills. Unfortunately, the disambiguation link doesn't work anymore. Could someone with more expertise than me take care of that? 24.1.80.167 ( talk) 00:24, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
The article contains a quote from Antonino Calderone that the Fascists had almost destroyed the Mafia. A recent book by John Dickie insists that Mafia survived Mori's suppression by simply laying low. They would pretend that they had been destroyed so that the authorities would pay less attention to them. Calderone was born in 1935, which meant he was only 10 years old when the war ended. How could a little boy have known the truth? The Mafia doesn't like to disclose its activities, and it doesn't like to record its history either, so Calderone would probably not have learned the truth when he became a mafiosi himself. Calderone was probably deceived just like Mussolini and the wider Italian public. Kurzon ( talk) 07:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I've watched several documentaries about how the Cosa Nostra arised. (atleast one was made by the BBC). And documentaries that go further back in time, usually get to the legend of three Spanish sailors that arrived to the island, and asked the people "Why do You not do anything about Your problems Yourselves ?" This is known as "Gli Tre Spagnolo"-legend. And this legend (if true) goes back to the 15th or 16th century. Far, far earlier than the Napoleon wars. At least it's true that the legend exists. If the legend is true, I don't know, and no documentary I've watched has stated that the legend is true. Only that it exists. No one else heard or read about this ? Boeing720 ( talk) 19:00, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move Mafia (disambiguation) to Mafia, in preparation for DABCONCEPT article. -- tariqabjotu 13:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Sicilian Mafia → Mafia – The closer in the 2010 RM said "Editors should decide whether mafia should be a dab page, a redirect to Sicilian Mafia, or something else." A followup RM on the issue gained no consensus, so that decision was never made. But if the subject of this article is called Mafia, referred to as Sicilian Mafia to distinguish it from other organizations, it should be located at Mafia if it's the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and Mafia should be a disambiguation page if it isn't. Either solution would suit me, though for what it's worth, just moving this page would involve the least effort. BDD ( talk) 20:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better if Cosa Nostra was translated as "Our Cause" instead of "Our Concern"? The latter sounds very amateurish as far as language goes. It just feels weird. Our Cause is more accurate, and you can see the shared origin of Cause and Cosa. 62.245.69.24 ( talk) 22:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Fascist suppression and Fascist suppression merely paraphrase Sicilian mafia during the Mussolini regime in about as many words as the forked article. Is this proper, or should these sections be made shorter and more like a summary of the forked article? Denny1213 ( talk) 11:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
From the article:
"The public's association of the word with the criminal secret society was perhaps inspired by the 1863 play "I mafiusi di la Vicaria" ("The Mafiosi of the Vicaria") by Giuseppe Rizzotto and Gaetano Mosca. The words mafia and mafiusi are never mentioned in the play; they were probably put in the title to add a local flair."
Gaetano Mosca’s linked article on Wikipedia doesn’t mention anything about him ever having written any play (though he did, apparently, write at least one book about the Mafia) and, more importantly regarding this article, that he was born in 1858. If he did co-author this play in 1863, he must have been most precocious! Can someone with more knowledge of this subject than me look into fixing this obvious error? Thank you. HistoryBuff14 ( talk) 22:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Regarding the additions/removal of info in the definitions section, can this be hashed out her without edit warring. Both User:Kurzon and 213.8.204.17 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) have not provided adequate explanation of its removal/inclusion. Vaselineeeeeeee ★★★ 17:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello, as I said before, I just restore the old version... I think readers should have real information here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.204.17 ( talk) 17:43, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
I think my version is effectively just as informative. I trimmed the wishy-washy text. Kurzon ( talk) 18:03, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
It's vague. It's not clear what you're talking about. It's just saying "the mafia is hard to define". Well, so what? It's a vague position without explanation. It's not a definition, and it doesn't have any consequence for the actual definitions that we've written in this section. Kurzon ( talk) 18:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
I just wanted to trim the cruft and organize the information better. I've done that now. Kurzon ( talk) 11:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Mafia Capitale was liquidated in 2014, so it is idiocy to write that Cosa Nostra is working with a gang that was liquidated and its members will be sentenced to long prison terms.
@ Vaselineeeeeeee: I changed the territories listed in the infobox. The Mafia is not a single organization but a loose confederation of gangs, and the expatriate gangs in America, South America etc. are loosely connected to the Sicilian gangs. Furthermore, I want to only list territories where the Mafia runs traditional protection rackets, not where it might have any sort of financial stake.
This is an excerpt I got from Letizia Paoli's book:
The first and most prominent is the Sicilian Cosa Nostra (“our thing”), a confederation of about 150 groups, mostly located in the western part of Sicily, more specifically the provinces of Palermo (the region’s capital), Trapani, and Agrigento (Ministero dell’Interno 2012b, pp. 28–70).
I emailed Prof Paoli and she tells me that this is still the case. Furthermore, she says that the Sicilian Mafia's territory has been shrinking, not expanding, in the last two decades. The Mafia's golden days are behind them.
Kurzon ( talk) 07:44, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree 100% with you, Kurzon! I think the way in which the mafia territories were described here was completely out of control, every time someone related to the mafia was arrested in a certain country, the people here at wikipedia already wanted to add it as mafia territory... and as you said yourself: "The Mafia's golden days are behind them."
Countries such as Venezuela where the Cuntrera-Caruana Mafia clan had a strong presence are not Mafia territories anymore, even this mafia family is long gone. So, there's no reason to say that countries such as Venezuela still a mafia territory.
Kanirieu ( talk) 14:38, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
@ MarcinTorun: I removed categories for countries other than Italy because the Mafia doesn't really have a strong presence in other countries other than America, and most scholars treat the American Mafia as a separate entity. Kurzon ( talk) 20:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello, well, i deleted the old mafia bosses that already died because, first of all the list was totally incomplete, and if we add here all the considered "notable" mafiosi the list will be as longer as List of Sicilian Mafia members (so, it would have no reason to have a page with the list of the Mafia members if the article of the Mafia already has the name of all the Mafia members), since all the mafiosi that has a wikipedia article, we can consider them to be "notable" (what would be the other way to say if a mobster was notable or not like the ones already listed?). The other reason to delete the names of the mobsters who have died is that the page should show the current situation of the mafia, as the Mafia still exists and for many it is still very powerful (not as much as it once was but it still has a remarkable power) its the same line of reasoning as was done here months ago by deleting the territories where the mafia was once present and is no longer (example: Venezuela) and also deleting the old allies of the Mafia. Alanzeritade ( talk) 14:51, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
The page name should be “Cosa Nostra” and not “Sicilian Mafia”.
This is for 2 reasons:
1. Sicilian Mafia is the Cosa Nostra’s simplified name, it’s like calling the Ndrangheta the “Calabrian Mafia” or the Camorra the “Neapolitan Mafia”.
2. There are 2 Sicilian Mafias: the Cosa Nostra (the main one, which this Wikipedia page talks about) and La Stidda (the second, smaller Sicilian Mafia limited to the South Coast of Sicily). 2A02:C7F:21A:300:4DD8:B032:254D:5CFA ( talk) 22:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
@ DonCalo: I don't like this section because this tell us anything. It says that scholars often ignore the cultural aspects that characterize the Mafia, but it doesn't explain what these aspects are. It's really waffling. Have you actually read the section and thought hard about, about how educational it is to a reader who knows nothing about the Mafia? I see no value in that section. I'm also skeptical of the very idea that the Mafia is uniquely Sicilian because there are organized crime syndicates all over the world that engage in protection rackets. There's no reason to discuss the cultural quirks of the Sicilian Mafia if those quirks aren't inextricably linked to what mafiosi do. Kurzon ( talk) 23:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
@ DonCalo: Okay, maybe that's worth covering... but what are they? What are the cultural aspects of the Mafia? The section as it is tells us nothing. Unless somebody actually does the work and researches the cultural aspects of the Mafia, this section as it is, is useless and should be deleted. (I suppose you expect ME to do the work, right?) Kurzon ( talk) 22:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
Is there a reliable source translating "cosa nostra" as "our business", as it is being translated in the lead? My understanding was that it meant "our thing". ComeAndHear ( talk) 09:42, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
It says the 18th century when it should say 19th century because the papers mentioned talk about the 18xx years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.216.52.180 ( talk) 13:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
demand for oranges and lemons following the late 18th-century discovery that citrus fruits cured scurvy.The discover was indeed made in the 18th C (see scruvy for details), so this seems to be accurate. If it's a different mention of it somewhere that's I've missed, let us know. Girth Summit (blether) 13:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
Malta,Spain,France,Germany,Switzerland,Belgium
(cooperation with Camorra and Ndragheta)
Tunisia, Marocco
Colombia,Brazil,Uruguay
(cooperation with Ndrangheta,Autodefensas Gaitanistas de Colombia,Rondas Campesinas Populares, La Oficina)
Greece, Cyprus, Lebanon
Canada and USA
Australia
-- 86.111.119.54 ( talk) 09:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
cooperation
@ DonCalo: We had this conversation years ago. That bit is just drivel to the layman. Maybe to a scholar of Sicily, this conclusion makes sense, but it teaches nothing to a new student. Kurzon ( talk) 22:57, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
@ DonCalo: That's a fine idea to communicate, but there wasn't anything concrete in there. Besides, organized crime isn't unique to Sicily. Does Sicilian culture somehow make the Mafia functionally different from other mafia-like groups like the yakuza or the American Mafia? Kurzon ( talk) 16:26, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
I view this article as a big mistake. The main point of view, which in my opinion, should be the point of view of the general public, or possibly the viewpoint of law enforcement. Instead, the article takes an ethically neutral sociological point of view, which is hardly mainstream. I would be ok with a sociological point of view as a fringe viewpoint, but the way it's written now is awful, and belongs in a different article, perhaps entitled "Organized Crime Viewed Abstractly." But this isn't an article on organized crime in general, but on Cosa Nostra in particular, anyway. Rich ( talk) 04:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sicilian Mafia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Sicilian Mafia is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | |||||||||
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![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | The contents of the History of the Mafia page were merged into Sicilian Mafia. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | The contents of the Cosa Nostra page were merged into Sicilian Mafia. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
The result of the move request was: Page moved. The supporters of the move are arguing that "mafia" is ambiguous because it can also refer to various other criminal organizations than the original, Sicilian Mafia. Editors should decide whether mafia should be a dab page, a redirect to Sicilian Mafia, or something else. Ucucha 17:04, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Mafia → Sicilian Mafia — "Mafia" is now being used to refer to organized crime syndicates all over the world. Even in Italy, "mafia" is used for the Camorra, 'Ndrangheta, etc as well as Cosa Nostra in Sicily. Even the Direzione Investigativa Antimafia calls all Italian gangsters "mafiosi". Once upon a time, when you said "mafia" everyone knew you meant Sicily, but now you must be more specific. We should make the "Mafia" article a disambiguation page that links to all Italian OCGs, and rename this article "Sicilian Mafia". Kurzon ( talk) 09:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Giovanni Falcone: "While there was a time when people were reluctant to pronounce the word 'Mafia,' … nowadays people have gone so far in the opposite direction that it has become an overused term … I am no longer willing to accept the habit of speaking of the Mafia in descriptive and all-inclusive terms that make it possible to stack up phenomena that are indeed related to the field of organized crime but that have little or nothing in common with the Mafia." Falcone’s polemic was directed against those who freely and indiscriminately blend a criminal superelite originating in western Sicily, which today is widely known as Cosa Nostra, along with its equally renowned counterpart in the United States, with organized crime in general and even, in some cases, with ordinary crime. According to the most commonly accepted definition, Mafia corresponds to the regional criminality of Sicily, and Camorra corresponds to the regional criminality of Campania. (Salvatore Lupo, The History of the Mafia, New York: Columbia University Press, 2009 ISBN 978-0-231-13134-6, pp. 1-2). - DonCalo ( talk) 22:33, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I guess it is just "dumb Americans." - DonCalo ( talk) 22:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
I support this move per common and even formal usage but the lack of consensus on what "Mafia" means if it's not only the Sicilian Mafia is troubling. (I don't have an answer either. Having Mafia as a disambiguation page works but it seems a little unsatisfying in this case.) However, the existence of the prominent (American) Mafia in an English-speaking country warrants a move per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. — AjaxSmack 16:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
There is no consensus on the move, so I reverted it. - DonCalo ( talk) 17:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
A wrong and sad decision. Yet another example of the increasing incompetence in Wikipedia. Admins now pretend to know it better than the scientific community. The line of reasoning by the one who requested the move was refuted. There was no clear consensus: five in favour and three strongly opposed. Even if unanimity is not required, this is not an example of clear consensus. Following the above misconstrued logic are we now going to rename the 'Ndrangheta into the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta and the Camorra into the Neapolitan Camorra? - DonCalo ( talk) 08:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to see more information on things like the 'DOM' or 'DON'. The heirarchy is not mentioned very much, nor the pattern of affiliation to a 'DON' or 'DOM' figurehead. -- Mnoon ( talk) 16:07, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Since the location of the Mafia page was not settled above, please discuss it at Talk:Mafia (disambiguation) if you care. — AjaxSmack 02:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
www.maffia.jordykroeze.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.72.29.128 ( talk • contribs) 01:05, 11 December 2011
"Appointments must absolutely be respected" is one of Lo Piccolo's ten commandments. Does "appointment" here mean rank or a rendez-vous? It could be either, as the Mafia demands both punctuality and obedience. I think it means rank, as punctuality is already covered by "always being available for Cosa Nostra". Kurzon ( talk) 00:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Mustache Pete is a pseudonym, MOS:BIO#Names, of Sicilian Mafia so I'm not sure why it has a separate article. We should be able to have a section in this article if the content supports it. I don't think every slang term for a subject needs to have it's own article. -- Hutcher ( talk) 18:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The term has to do with America more that Italy, hence the American spelling. If anything, it should redirect to the American Mafia. The term is significant because of the rift caused between the group and the "Young Turks" which led to the Castellammarese War.
Please: in it:wiki Mafia is an article for the world mafia. In en:wiki Sicilian Mafia is the only sicilian phenomenon. For the Sicilian Mafia in it:wiki there is Cosa Nostra. Please, do not change the link to it:wiki an other time. Thank you.-- 79.53.109.245 ( talk) 07:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
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The etymology section is totally incorrect and contains arbitrary speculation. The well known explanation which comes directly from a Sicilian viewpoint is that the entire mythology or origin of the Mafia in some form dates back to ancient times. It is a borrowed term that was commonly used to specifically refer to theft throughout the Hellenic world, most notably in Asia.
Rather than give credit to the Greek history of the words that translated to Mafia, which is clearly derived from the slang term maf' which is a shortened and archaic form of the Greek word for black or 'to blacken' (mav-ros {phonetic}); the Wikipedia editors would rather come up with some fantasy about the word originating from Arabic. It's total nonsense. This shows that Wikipedia at times is clueless and in fact belligerent, in a fight against the cultures that provided the historical foundation of successful civilization.
There is no mention of a historical link between the description of something being "black" or culturally dark and the same characterization used to describe criminal acts (or dark acts). (i.e. dark horse, black sheep, black magic, black death etc.)
Instead of including any factual reference, the article alludes to something that makes no sense. "Mafia means that criminals originally lived in caves and bragged about their crimes"? Thanks Wikipedia, I needed to hear a good joke.
There is an entire documented history going back to ancient times to describe and explain where the whole origin of the Mafia comes from and the article contains almost none of the facts
The identification of Sicilia region as the territory of pertinence of Mafia is highly disputable, since the judicial chronicles in Italy clearly show its presence and ramifications in other Central and Northern Italian regions, like Lombardia, Piemonte, etc. Therefore the map is giving a false and distorted information and should have to be updated accordingly.-- Ferdinando Scala ( talk) 20:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
I...uh...looked up this page and found a bunch of crap in the beginning, so I edited it a little with my completely amateur editing skills. Unfortunately, the disambiguation link doesn't work anymore. Could someone with more expertise than me take care of that? 24.1.80.167 ( talk) 00:24, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
The article contains a quote from Antonino Calderone that the Fascists had almost destroyed the Mafia. A recent book by John Dickie insists that Mafia survived Mori's suppression by simply laying low. They would pretend that they had been destroyed so that the authorities would pay less attention to them. Calderone was born in 1935, which meant he was only 10 years old when the war ended. How could a little boy have known the truth? The Mafia doesn't like to disclose its activities, and it doesn't like to record its history either, so Calderone would probably not have learned the truth when he became a mafiosi himself. Calderone was probably deceived just like Mussolini and the wider Italian public. Kurzon ( talk) 07:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I've watched several documentaries about how the Cosa Nostra arised. (atleast one was made by the BBC). And documentaries that go further back in time, usually get to the legend of three Spanish sailors that arrived to the island, and asked the people "Why do You not do anything about Your problems Yourselves ?" This is known as "Gli Tre Spagnolo"-legend. And this legend (if true) goes back to the 15th or 16th century. Far, far earlier than the Napoleon wars. At least it's true that the legend exists. If the legend is true, I don't know, and no documentary I've watched has stated that the legend is true. Only that it exists. No one else heard or read about this ? Boeing720 ( talk) 19:00, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move Mafia (disambiguation) to Mafia, in preparation for DABCONCEPT article. -- tariqabjotu 13:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Sicilian Mafia → Mafia – The closer in the 2010 RM said "Editors should decide whether mafia should be a dab page, a redirect to Sicilian Mafia, or something else." A followup RM on the issue gained no consensus, so that decision was never made. But if the subject of this article is called Mafia, referred to as Sicilian Mafia to distinguish it from other organizations, it should be located at Mafia if it's the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and Mafia should be a disambiguation page if it isn't. Either solution would suit me, though for what it's worth, just moving this page would involve the least effort. BDD ( talk) 20:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better if Cosa Nostra was translated as "Our Cause" instead of "Our Concern"? The latter sounds very amateurish as far as language goes. It just feels weird. Our Cause is more accurate, and you can see the shared origin of Cause and Cosa. 62.245.69.24 ( talk) 22:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Fascist suppression and Fascist suppression merely paraphrase Sicilian mafia during the Mussolini regime in about as many words as the forked article. Is this proper, or should these sections be made shorter and more like a summary of the forked article? Denny1213 ( talk) 11:46, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
From the article:
"The public's association of the word with the criminal secret society was perhaps inspired by the 1863 play "I mafiusi di la Vicaria" ("The Mafiosi of the Vicaria") by Giuseppe Rizzotto and Gaetano Mosca. The words mafia and mafiusi are never mentioned in the play; they were probably put in the title to add a local flair."
Gaetano Mosca’s linked article on Wikipedia doesn’t mention anything about him ever having written any play (though he did, apparently, write at least one book about the Mafia) and, more importantly regarding this article, that he was born in 1858. If he did co-author this play in 1863, he must have been most precocious! Can someone with more knowledge of this subject than me look into fixing this obvious error? Thank you. HistoryBuff14 ( talk) 22:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Regarding the additions/removal of info in the definitions section, can this be hashed out her without edit warring. Both User:Kurzon and 213.8.204.17 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) have not provided adequate explanation of its removal/inclusion. Vaselineeeeeeee ★★★ 17:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello, as I said before, I just restore the old version... I think readers should have real information here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.8.204.17 ( talk) 17:43, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
I think my version is effectively just as informative. I trimmed the wishy-washy text. Kurzon ( talk) 18:03, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
It's vague. It's not clear what you're talking about. It's just saying "the mafia is hard to define". Well, so what? It's a vague position without explanation. It's not a definition, and it doesn't have any consequence for the actual definitions that we've written in this section. Kurzon ( talk) 18:31, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
I just wanted to trim the cruft and organize the information better. I've done that now. Kurzon ( talk) 11:37, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Mafia Capitale was liquidated in 2014, so it is idiocy to write that Cosa Nostra is working with a gang that was liquidated and its members will be sentenced to long prison terms.
@ Vaselineeeeeeee: I changed the territories listed in the infobox. The Mafia is not a single organization but a loose confederation of gangs, and the expatriate gangs in America, South America etc. are loosely connected to the Sicilian gangs. Furthermore, I want to only list territories where the Mafia runs traditional protection rackets, not where it might have any sort of financial stake.
This is an excerpt I got from Letizia Paoli's book:
The first and most prominent is the Sicilian Cosa Nostra (“our thing”), a confederation of about 150 groups, mostly located in the western part of Sicily, more specifically the provinces of Palermo (the region’s capital), Trapani, and Agrigento (Ministero dell’Interno 2012b, pp. 28–70).
I emailed Prof Paoli and she tells me that this is still the case. Furthermore, she says that the Sicilian Mafia's territory has been shrinking, not expanding, in the last two decades. The Mafia's golden days are behind them.
Kurzon ( talk) 07:44, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree 100% with you, Kurzon! I think the way in which the mafia territories were described here was completely out of control, every time someone related to the mafia was arrested in a certain country, the people here at wikipedia already wanted to add it as mafia territory... and as you said yourself: "The Mafia's golden days are behind them."
Countries such as Venezuela where the Cuntrera-Caruana Mafia clan had a strong presence are not Mafia territories anymore, even this mafia family is long gone. So, there's no reason to say that countries such as Venezuela still a mafia territory.
Kanirieu ( talk) 14:38, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
@ MarcinTorun: I removed categories for countries other than Italy because the Mafia doesn't really have a strong presence in other countries other than America, and most scholars treat the American Mafia as a separate entity. Kurzon ( talk) 20:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello, well, i deleted the old mafia bosses that already died because, first of all the list was totally incomplete, and if we add here all the considered "notable" mafiosi the list will be as longer as List of Sicilian Mafia members (so, it would have no reason to have a page with the list of the Mafia members if the article of the Mafia already has the name of all the Mafia members), since all the mafiosi that has a wikipedia article, we can consider them to be "notable" (what would be the other way to say if a mobster was notable or not like the ones already listed?). The other reason to delete the names of the mobsters who have died is that the page should show the current situation of the mafia, as the Mafia still exists and for many it is still very powerful (not as much as it once was but it still has a remarkable power) its the same line of reasoning as was done here months ago by deleting the territories where the mafia was once present and is no longer (example: Venezuela) and also deleting the old allies of the Mafia. Alanzeritade ( talk) 14:51, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
The page name should be “Cosa Nostra” and not “Sicilian Mafia”.
This is for 2 reasons:
1. Sicilian Mafia is the Cosa Nostra’s simplified name, it’s like calling the Ndrangheta the “Calabrian Mafia” or the Camorra the “Neapolitan Mafia”.
2. There are 2 Sicilian Mafias: the Cosa Nostra (the main one, which this Wikipedia page talks about) and La Stidda (the second, smaller Sicilian Mafia limited to the South Coast of Sicily). 2A02:C7F:21A:300:4DD8:B032:254D:5CFA ( talk) 22:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
@ DonCalo: I don't like this section because this tell us anything. It says that scholars often ignore the cultural aspects that characterize the Mafia, but it doesn't explain what these aspects are. It's really waffling. Have you actually read the section and thought hard about, about how educational it is to a reader who knows nothing about the Mafia? I see no value in that section. I'm also skeptical of the very idea that the Mafia is uniquely Sicilian because there are organized crime syndicates all over the world that engage in protection rackets. There's no reason to discuss the cultural quirks of the Sicilian Mafia if those quirks aren't inextricably linked to what mafiosi do. Kurzon ( talk) 23:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
@ DonCalo: Okay, maybe that's worth covering... but what are they? What are the cultural aspects of the Mafia? The section as it is tells us nothing. Unless somebody actually does the work and researches the cultural aspects of the Mafia, this section as it is, is useless and should be deleted. (I suppose you expect ME to do the work, right?) Kurzon ( talk) 22:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
Is there a reliable source translating "cosa nostra" as "our business", as it is being translated in the lead? My understanding was that it meant "our thing". ComeAndHear ( talk) 09:42, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
It says the 18th century when it should say 19th century because the papers mentioned talk about the 18xx years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.216.52.180 ( talk) 13:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
demand for oranges and lemons following the late 18th-century discovery that citrus fruits cured scurvy.The discover was indeed made in the 18th C (see scruvy for details), so this seems to be accurate. If it's a different mention of it somewhere that's I've missed, let us know. Girth Summit (blether) 13:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
Malta,Spain,France,Germany,Switzerland,Belgium
(cooperation with Camorra and Ndragheta)
Tunisia, Marocco
Colombia,Brazil,Uruguay
(cooperation with Ndrangheta,Autodefensas Gaitanistas de Colombia,Rondas Campesinas Populares, La Oficina)
Greece, Cyprus, Lebanon
Canada and USA
Australia
-- 86.111.119.54 ( talk) 09:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
cooperation
@ DonCalo: We had this conversation years ago. That bit is just drivel to the layman. Maybe to a scholar of Sicily, this conclusion makes sense, but it teaches nothing to a new student. Kurzon ( talk) 22:57, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
@ DonCalo: That's a fine idea to communicate, but there wasn't anything concrete in there. Besides, organized crime isn't unique to Sicily. Does Sicilian culture somehow make the Mafia functionally different from other mafia-like groups like the yakuza or the American Mafia? Kurzon ( talk) 16:26, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
I view this article as a big mistake. The main point of view, which in my opinion, should be the point of view of the general public, or possibly the viewpoint of law enforcement. Instead, the article takes an ethically neutral sociological point of view, which is hardly mainstream. I would be ok with a sociological point of view as a fringe viewpoint, but the way it's written now is awful, and belongs in a different article, perhaps entitled "Organized Crime Viewed Abstractly." But this isn't an article on organized crime in general, but on Cosa Nostra in particular, anyway. Rich ( talk) 04:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)