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The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 13:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Sichuan dialect → Sichuanese — parallels the article Shanghainese rather than Shanghai dialect — 70.131.212.228 21:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.While the status of the various forms of Chinese is peculiar, I would a priori prefer to move Shanghainese to agree with this article than the other way around, if consistency is necessary.
Two arguments, with evidence, would move me:
Neither has been made. I await evidence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I was told from a Sichuanese that they use words like Hai = Shoes and Gai = Street, that is also found in Cantonese and Hakka. It seems that perhaps Sichuanese got slightly influenced by Cantonese and Hakka OR Sichuanese retain more of Middle Chinese(chinese language spoken during Tang, Sui and Song period) than Standard Mandarin. Cantonese and Hakka dialects are also descendants of Middle Chinese and preserves more of Middle Chinese than Mandarin where mandarin lost the initial (Ng-, H-)and final constants(-t,-p,-m,-k). Examples of initial constants in my Chinese dialect of Taishanese Cantonese: Ngin = Person, Ha = down, Hai = Shoes. Examples of final constants in my Chinese dialect of Taishanese Cantonese: Yit = One, Si Yip = Si Yi region in Guangdong province, Nam = South, Guok(in mandarin it is Guo = country.
I'm going to be making a little push to see if this article can be brought up to the level of some of the other Chinese dialect pages. Right now it seems to be a mishmash of hearsay and fact. I'm going to be mainly cribbing from the Hanyu Fangyan Gaiyao. Let me know if you'd like to help out. Alexwoods ( talk) 01:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I really am quite weak at Chinese but that was certainly not my impression, and I also think the similarities to putonghua are overstated.
I aggree. I speak mandarin, but live Chongqing now. I dunno if Chongqing hua is same as sichuan hua, but chongqing hua is definitely a lot different from mandarin, and I know many mandarin speaking chinese who will have a hard time understanding someone speaking pure chongqing/sichuan hua. And reverse. Some words and/or sentences are just totally different and none existent in mandarin, at least to my knowledge. -- Stiginshanghai ( talk) 15:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Since "Though the four tone categories are the same as those of standard Mandarin, the third and fourth tones of the Sichuan dialect are almost exactly the reverse of the standard Mandarin tones." as it is written,I think 雄起 should be Xiong2 Qi4.
Like many of the southern provinces in China, Sichuan was fully sinicized by the end of the Tang Dynasty.
Does the given source really say that? There are plenty of ethnic minorities in modern Sichuan, speaking languages of the Qiangic, Jiarongic, Lolo-Burmese, Naxi, Bodish, Hmongic, even Tai groups. Are they supposed to have immigrated into the area only later? This is what the expression "fully sinicized" implies to me: complete assimilation, linguistic and cultural, of whatever indigenous population there is. Or is that not what is meant? Florian Blaschke ( talk) 04:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
If there are no retroflex consonants, why is the name of the dialect in the dialect starting with a retroflex consonant? Seems like it should just be /s/. Thoughts? Yung Wei ( talk) 10:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
There are two great immigration wave in Sichuan, the first one is in Ming Dynasty, the second one, which is more famous, is in Qing Dynasty. According to some researches, it is in Ming Dynasty when Modern Sichuanese came into being. I have put a citation there. -- 本本一世 ( talk) 05:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I can't seem to figure out where the number 120 million speakers comes from. Wikipedia shows a population for the province of about 82 million people. Does anyone have a reference? J. Evans —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.109.232.72 ( talk) 06:55, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree about those not being valid sources. We could say "somewhere around 100M", but giving a more precise figure is IMO not warranted. (And there are those who would dispute giving any figure based on OR.) — kwami ( talk) 21:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
Great improvements to the original article! Can we get some information on Sichuanese tone sandhi in here? It is quite different from Mandarin (3rd tone goes from 53 to 55, etc.) Also, I am pretty sure that the 1st tone is usually a rising 35 rather than a high 55. It changes to 55 in some words depending on the surrounding tones...
How come Ba-Shu Chinese was not mentioned in this article at all? The overlay of a divergent Chinese dialect by Mandarin goes a long way to explain the peculiar nature of Sichuanese, as a Mandarin dialect that is nevertheless very distinctive. I've added an explanation. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 02:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
This statement is cited to Ramsey, but that book makes no mention of the divergent southern and western dialects covered in this article and Ramsey may not have been aware of them. -- JWB ( talk) 01:53, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 13:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Sichuan dialect → Sichuanese — parallels the article Shanghainese rather than Shanghai dialect — 70.131.212.228 21:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.While the status of the various forms of Chinese is peculiar, I would a priori prefer to move Shanghainese to agree with this article than the other way around, if consistency is necessary.
Two arguments, with evidence, would move me:
Neither has been made. I await evidence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I was told from a Sichuanese that they use words like Hai = Shoes and Gai = Street, that is also found in Cantonese and Hakka. It seems that perhaps Sichuanese got slightly influenced by Cantonese and Hakka OR Sichuanese retain more of Middle Chinese(chinese language spoken during Tang, Sui and Song period) than Standard Mandarin. Cantonese and Hakka dialects are also descendants of Middle Chinese and preserves more of Middle Chinese than Mandarin where mandarin lost the initial (Ng-, H-)and final constants(-t,-p,-m,-k). Examples of initial constants in my Chinese dialect of Taishanese Cantonese: Ngin = Person, Ha = down, Hai = Shoes. Examples of final constants in my Chinese dialect of Taishanese Cantonese: Yit = One, Si Yip = Si Yi region in Guangdong province, Nam = South, Guok(in mandarin it is Guo = country.
I'm going to be making a little push to see if this article can be brought up to the level of some of the other Chinese dialect pages. Right now it seems to be a mishmash of hearsay and fact. I'm going to be mainly cribbing from the Hanyu Fangyan Gaiyao. Let me know if you'd like to help out. Alexwoods ( talk) 01:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I really am quite weak at Chinese but that was certainly not my impression, and I also think the similarities to putonghua are overstated.
I aggree. I speak mandarin, but live Chongqing now. I dunno if Chongqing hua is same as sichuan hua, but chongqing hua is definitely a lot different from mandarin, and I know many mandarin speaking chinese who will have a hard time understanding someone speaking pure chongqing/sichuan hua. And reverse. Some words and/or sentences are just totally different and none existent in mandarin, at least to my knowledge. -- Stiginshanghai ( talk) 15:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Since "Though the four tone categories are the same as those of standard Mandarin, the third and fourth tones of the Sichuan dialect are almost exactly the reverse of the standard Mandarin tones." as it is written,I think 雄起 should be Xiong2 Qi4.
Like many of the southern provinces in China, Sichuan was fully sinicized by the end of the Tang Dynasty.
Does the given source really say that? There are plenty of ethnic minorities in modern Sichuan, speaking languages of the Qiangic, Jiarongic, Lolo-Burmese, Naxi, Bodish, Hmongic, even Tai groups. Are they supposed to have immigrated into the area only later? This is what the expression "fully sinicized" implies to me: complete assimilation, linguistic and cultural, of whatever indigenous population there is. Or is that not what is meant? Florian Blaschke ( talk) 04:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
If there are no retroflex consonants, why is the name of the dialect in the dialect starting with a retroflex consonant? Seems like it should just be /s/. Thoughts? Yung Wei ( talk) 10:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
There are two great immigration wave in Sichuan, the first one is in Ming Dynasty, the second one, which is more famous, is in Qing Dynasty. According to some researches, it is in Ming Dynasty when Modern Sichuanese came into being. I have put a citation there. -- 本本一世 ( talk) 05:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I can't seem to figure out where the number 120 million speakers comes from. Wikipedia shows a population for the province of about 82 million people. Does anyone have a reference? J. Evans —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.109.232.72 ( talk) 06:55, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree about those not being valid sources. We could say "somewhere around 100M", but giving a more precise figure is IMO not warranted. (And there are those who would dispute giving any figure based on OR.) — kwami ( talk) 21:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
Great improvements to the original article! Can we get some information on Sichuanese tone sandhi in here? It is quite different from Mandarin (3rd tone goes from 53 to 55, etc.) Also, I am pretty sure that the 1st tone is usually a rising 35 rather than a high 55. It changes to 55 in some words depending on the surrounding tones...
How come Ba-Shu Chinese was not mentioned in this article at all? The overlay of a divergent Chinese dialect by Mandarin goes a long way to explain the peculiar nature of Sichuanese, as a Mandarin dialect that is nevertheless very distinctive. I've added an explanation. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 02:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
This statement is cited to Ramsey, but that book makes no mention of the divergent southern and western dialects covered in this article and Ramsey may not have been aware of them. -- JWB ( talk) 01:53, 11 November 2011 (UTC)