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The second paragraph presents negative arguments as to the 'validity' of the Shroud. The third paragraph presents positive arguments as to the 'validity' of the Shroud. As the significance of the Shroud owes itself to the positive arguments -- its argued associated with Jesus -- shouldn't those come first and the negative arguments second? From an objective standpoint it seems odd to say 'why it may not be' before 'why it may be.'
What is 14C?
Yes, (14C) is the proper form for an isotope in chemistry. However saying "14 carbon" doesn't make much sense. Leave it as "carbon-14." Crucible Guardian 20:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
What's the position of the Vatican on the shroud? The speech I linked to seems to suggest that he believes it's a matter for the science to determine the origin, and if the science concludes it's from the middle ages it's fine by them. However, confirmation by somebody fluent in Catholicese would be helpful.-- Robert Merkel
The official possition is that the origin is unknown. However, as with any other relic of dubious origin, personal devotion is not officially prevented or encouraged. The Pope (the present one) is clearly devout to it, but you have to take into account that the present Pope is Eastern, and so he is very devout of Icons, and the shroud can be seen as one (and one especially gifted). Pfortuny 09:59, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Pfortuny's comments (above) are perfect examples of "adding apples and oranges". British possessiveness of the mummies in their museums is in no way analogous to the Catholic Church's habit of preventing critical investigation of the Turin shroud. The age and origin of the mummies in British museums is not in question. They've already been examined. If a question should arise regarding the authenticity of one or more of these mummies, and the British government refuses to allow an investigation, or allows only an already-biased group (equivalent to STURP) to do the investigating, then will be the time to criticize the British government for not allowing scientists to examine the mummies closely enough.
This Pfortuny has got to go. What is meant by "The present Pope [I take it this post dates from the reign of John Paul II] is Eastern, and so he is very devout of Icons"? Just because a Catholic is from an eastern European country doesn't make him "devout of icons". Polish Catholics, unless they belong to a Uniate jurisdiction, don't employ icons in their worship any more than French or Italian or Irish Catholics do. Nor do other non-Uniate Catholics. The ones who are "devout of icons" are the Orthodox, not Catholics ("eastern" or otherwise). True, most Orthodox churches are in eastern Europe or the Middle East, hence they're often called "Eastern Orthodox", but it's an incredible folly to confuse them with Polish Catholics. tom.amity 129.93.17.63 03:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Was this a BBC documentary? When was it broadcast? I can't find any refereence for the BBC broadcasting this programme, but I can references to it being broadcast by the National Geographic channel. Mintguy 10:43, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"Many people believe it is the cloth that covered Jesus of Nazareth when he was placed in his tomb and that his image was somehow recorded on its fibers at the moment of his resurrection. Skeptics contend it is a medieval hoax or forgery. Scientists, theologians and historians continue to debate where, when and how the shroud and image were created." ....The Shroud of Turin has so much to teach us— about human nature, about cult and the victim, about the weighting of evidence, about the psychology of fraud and the psychology of belief, about the value of pilgrimages in the medieval economy, about the nature of revealed religion itself. None of which is wikipediable. The tone of this entry is Wikipedia at its most craven. Any effort here is in vain. User:Wetman
User Eloquence removed phrase "Its true origin remains uncertain", claiming NNPOV. But no statement could be more NPOV. Even if one belives the shroud is a hoax, the manner, region and year of its production are still matters of total speculation. Thus the uncertainty of its origin is a simple fact. Of course, a great many serious and credentialed researchers have cast grave doubt on the accuracy of the 1988 Carbon-14 dating, which has so far been the only potentially empirical basis for declaring the shroud a hoax-- so any honest appraisal of the debate would have to use the term "uncertain" at least until a more rigorous radiocarbon test is done. JDG 07:34, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Moved this to talk:
To understand the long and impassioned debate surrounding the shroud one must understand the unique properties of the image. It is like no other religious relic or work of art dating from either ancient or medieval times. Its sheer haunting visual realism is the primary reason efforts to show it is a forgery have needed to be so strenuous and oft-repeated. The shroud has occasioned an about-face to the usual Reason vs Faith scenario, for here the faithful have something tangible, visible and compelling to hold up while it is the scientific skeptic who must argue from the intangible and invisible. Only an individual with scant appreciation for the challenges of the graphic arts could view the image on the shroud and feel there is nothing remarkable about it: if the image was not miraculously formed, the forger possessed nearly miraculous talent and technique.
It's certainly not agreed that the image is particularly "haunting", "remarkable", or "real", nor does carbon-dating seem particularly intangible. It's also fairly clear that "impassioned debate" arises not from the qualities of the image, but from passionate disagreements over its subject matter. - Nunh-huh 09:01, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: could you both either
And in any case, could you please use your personal talk pages to continue the discussion?
No offence intended, just that I noticed the air was getting warmer here and... well, errr, I prefer a cool environment. Pfortuny 08:04, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Only someone with a serious deficit in aesthetic understanding and perception would make that statement" is an ad hominem attack, plain and simple, and it's unacceptable tone around here. JDG, we all know by now how you feel about the image. That is of no relevance whatsoever to the actual article, as artistic perception is by definition inherently POV. You can make people believe that a black dot on a green background is "haunting" and "remarkable", it's simply a matter of marketing. So when we talk about art (if you want to see the Fraud of Turin as art) we always have to attribute beliefs and opinions. See also Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial.-- Eloquence * 23:09, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)
I could not find a more appropriate section for this so... In the 'second image on back of cloth' section, the writer claims that the image on the back of the cloth would make the "photographic theory impossible." Supposing that the photographic theory is correct, why couldn't the technique just have been used twice, or perhaps used on the back as on the front of shroud? The validity of this statement is very questionable, or at leeast warrants an explanation. I'll delete it in a few days. -- XAdHominemx 01:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to have a comparison for the "unparalleled artistic quality" claims, here's a random Fayum mummy portrait from ancient Roman Egypt, grayscale and blurred, positive and negative:
File:Shroud-compare1.jpg File:Shroud-compare2.jpg
-- [DELETED IMAGE OF SHROUD CLOSEUP WAS HERE] --
Which one has the greater artistic quality? Which one provides more detail? The answer to that question is inherently POV.
These mummy portraits were a commodity, by the way, they were not in any way unusual. In fact, the best artists of the time probably produced even more photorealistic images, but none survived the Dark Ages. They didn't just rot away -- many of the greatest works of art were deliberately destroyed, as Christianization brought with it iconoclasm, a curious trait of religious fundamentalism that would be revived by the Taliban many centuries later. -- Eloquence * 02:42, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
Questions (mainly to JDG, bc I am at a loss)
Maybe those questions are related and related to the discussion, but I dunno. Answers are appreciated from anyone :) Pfortuny 07:03, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Fayam portrait
Here's my POV as an Art Historian who is familiar with Fayam mummy portraits. To say that this is a "random" Fayam mummy portrait is a subtle excercise in wool-pulling! This is no "random" portrait. It is one of the finest and most expertly-handled, most three-dimensional and beautiful of all the known Fayam portraits.
These portraits were painted by artists who undoubtedly specialised in creating these life-like images. Unlike Leonardo, their output probably ran into hundreds or thousands of portraits in a productive lifetime. Some of them were very very (POV, POV!) skilful at achieving a lifelike and 3D face. And they brought to life the dead body at which they were looking, fleshed it out and gave it "soul" as expertly as the most expert modern forensic sculptor.
But, (and this of course is a value judgement, made for the benefit of those who are not familiar with this particular artform) this Fayam portrait goes well beyond the average in depiction of that which is lifelike. The writer has, I suspect, selected the finest example he could locate in order to make the point, whatever the particular point is.....
ON THE VINLAND MAP -
On this topic, Pfortuny is as usual immoderate. The Vinland map was "declared authentic" by a conference whose sole purpose seems to have been the discrediting of McCrone with the aim of upping the authenticity of the shroud of Turin. Nobody took this conference seriously, except the advocates of the Turin shroud for whom it's just about their favorite conference in the world. The interesting thing about this conference is that its organizers DIDN'T INVITE McCRONE, which is extremely odd since he's the one who did the work on the Vinland map to begin with! Whom do they think they're kidding? Tom.amity 129.93.17.63 04:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
-- Amandajm 06:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is beginning to become one of those one starts to read eagerly and at the middle of it one says "oh, if it were simply a bit shorter I would read it completely". Mmmhhh.... Pfortuny 09:47, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Given my positive experience with other wikipedia articles, I was surprised to find this article on the Shroud of Turin to be presented in such a non-neutral manner. The piece is filled with unsupported and unsupportable editorial comments, presents very questionable claims as uncontested fact, and generally presents the religious view of the Shroud as the only credible alternative. (65.24.113.156)
There has been a lot of use of the phrases "pro-Shroud" and "anti-Shroud", as if these were the only possible positions. Anti-Shroud is clear enough - it's the position that the shroud is a hoax, probably medieval - but what are we to understand by pro-Shroud? Presumably the pro-Shroud viewpoint is that the cloth really is the grave-wrapping of Jesus, but this leaves the question of whether the image was produced by natural or miraculous means. Lumping both answers to that question into one "side" of the debate confuses things greatly.
My personal belief (if anyone cares) is that the cloth was indeed used to wrap the body of Jesus - who was after all a historical person. While most genuine relics have probably been lost, it's not inconceivable that one may have survived, and all the scientific evidence seems to point that way (with the exception of the carbon-dating which has been called into question in any case). I don't beleive in miracles, though, and I attribute the image on the cloth to a rare but explicable chemical and physical process. I remember being shown at school a video of a documentary about the shroud, in which they embalmed a body in the same way as practiced in the 1st century and left it in a cave for three days. Afterwards, the cloth had a recognisable image on it. Smudgy and blurry, and nothing like the detail of the Turin shroud, but enough to show that the idea of a natural "printing" is a possibility. --Pete
Nice reorganizing/rephrasing, James M. Lane. As a result of these and other recent improvements this article is truly top-notch. The foremost but unheralded star was an anonymous user (68 dot something) a few months ago who contributed really excellent material in the "Theories of Image Formation" section. In fact, I wonder if the anon user may have been Dr. Rogers of Los Alamos himself... Sadly, the cadres of reflexive skeptics that dominate Wikipedia, led here by Eloquence and Wetman, cannot abide a balanced article on a topic like the shroud, so even though the fineness of detail and quality of writing exceeds 90% of those in Featured Articles, it will never be promoted to that list. JDG 18:21, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Hi. It seems to me that the problem with the "controvery" section isn't necessarily the content but the layout and organization. The non-skeptics deserve to have their opinions stated; but with the present mixed-up arrangement the article does seem rather unscientific. Furthermore, there is a lot of cart-before-the-horsing: rebuttals before the argument they're rebutting; micro-analysis before macro-analysis. So, although I don't know enough about the issue to rewrite it, here's my proposed layout for the section:
This seems like a far more logical order to put things in. Data should come before possible conclusions; right now the article has the reverse arrangement. Doops 20:18, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"This chemical layer, which is about as thick as the transparent scratch-resistant coatings used for eye glasses (about 600 mm thick)"
That's over half a meter. Is it supposed to be 600 nm? If I knew I would change it.--
Vsmith 17:16, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have put together a new version of the article at Shroud of Turin/temp, attempting to produce a more neutral tone and reorganizing the material at a few places. I may have put too many "subheadings" in -- I personally hate reading huge blocks of text with no visual cues of where I am...
I have added some amount of material myself, but almost all comes from the original article here. There are two points in the text where I have indicated a lack of references with HTML comments embedded in the edit text. Otherwise, it seems to be pretty-well documented. Note that I found a couple of paragraphs to be copied verbatim from various websites, so I have literally rewritten everything, so as to remove all trace of copyright violation (hopefully). Have a look. The other unresolved objection would be the photo, which someone suggested might be a copyright violation.
Ideally, the main image here should be a positive image, with the negative occuring along side the discussion of the negative image. It might be good to also get an image of the whole thing, with both images, to put elsewhere in the article. -- Mpolo 14:33, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
This article still argues way too strongly in favor of the 'religious' view that the shroud really is Jesus's burial cloth, despite the fact that the known history begins in 1357. → R Young { yakł talk} 08:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Mpolo, it looks like I'll be making quite a few changes. Rather than doing a lot of separate saves, I'll bunch the changes into a few saves and use the list below to catalog my reasons for each edit.
First round of edits:
Second round of edits:
Third round:
Fourth round (moving backwards to "Theories of image formation" section):
Well, I've got to quit for now (unfortunately I was recently diagnosed with a serious illness and cannot keep at it too long). If most of these edits are retained I have no problem with the /temp version going live (understanding, of course, that the normal Wiki process will be ongoing). Nice work, Mpolo. JDG 16:36, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Despite your gibes and sneers it looks like Shroud of Turin is on its way to FA, as Mpolo's rewrite is meeting with approval from most of those who have objected. A small victory for genuine freethinkers. I wouldn't go quite so far as to suggest you change your username to AllWetMan. Yet, anyway." JDG 00:20, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC) (In fact I supported Shroud of Turin as a Featured Article, because it is quite characteristic of a certain aspect of Wikipedia. "Free"thinkers indeed! Wetman 00:29, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC))
I'm feeling guilty every time Wikipedia complains about the article being 41 kb long. Any ideas about what could go into a sub-article. I was thinking the History section would be the likeliest candidate, though that would remove the single strongest "skeptical" argument from the main article (it would be mentioned in the summary paragraph, but necessarily in abbreviated form). The "Controversy" has to stay because that's really the main point of the article. Other sections are too short to do much good. Or maybe we defy the 32kb "limit" -- How hard is that limit these days? -- Mpolo 10:55, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 10:49, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)) The article says:
The "many examples" would benefit from linking to some of them. Googling for mummy 1770 turns up only shroud-related stuff: is this an urban myth?
I object to the new 2nd paragraph and will delete it if no one makes a strong argument for it here. One of this article's virtues was that it presented facts and history before jumping into the controversy. The new paragraph jumps right into it before the reader has the basics. JDG 09:31, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I nominated this in Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates. Muriel G 13:30, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is a very nice article, well written, good references, the paradigm of npoviness. So nice that I'm translating it for the wiki.pt. Unfortunately, sorry for being a spoil sport, its a bit messy due to heavy mixing of fact and interpretation. Moreover, the pursue of describing all possible points of view goes to the extreme of dilluting what is actually important. I understand that it needs to be comprehensive but big, gentlemen, its not always the best (mind the joke). To conclude, i would suggest some cutting and organizing under the principles of less is more. Cheers, muriel
I think there should be a copy of the self portrait of Da Vinci on the Da Vinci made the shroud bit.
When compared next to one another, the likeness is remarkable, you think "oh my god. Im looking at a photograph of Leonardo Da Vinci" CheeseDreams 22:33, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hey Mpolo-- what happened to the Pia face image, do you know? It's getting reported as missing. JDG
Surely this is wrong - you wouldn't be able to see anything in a negative until it had been developed? Pretzelpaws 01:31, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The piercing of the wrists rather than the palms goes against traditional Christian iconography, especially in the Middle Ages, but many modern scholars suggest that crucifixion victims were generally nailed through the wrists, and a skeleton discovered in the Holy Land shows that at least some were nailed between the radius and ulna; this was not common knowledge in the Middle Ages.
Where in the "Holy Land"? When used alone like this, I don't think Holy Land is clear as Christians' label for the area, and the term should be replaced with an objective label. 119 04:52, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, regarding "this was not common knowledge in the Middle Ages" — can we get this more specific? Is it known that there were at least some who knew this, or do we have no information at all as to whether this was known in the Middle Ages? Does everyone who mentions crucifixion claim the nails went through the wrists, for example? Were there only artistic depictions of this, or also more scholarly descriptions? JRM 20:49, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
Re: nails in wrists v. hands: A recent documentary on National Geographic Channel featured scientists who are now convinced that the metacarpal bones in the hands would support a crucified body; this based on empirical data. The general acceptance of this thesis needs to be investigated, and the article updated accordingly. 19:48 18 Aug 2005 soverman
I have looked at hundreds of images of the crucifixion and of Christ with the wounds of the crucifion. I don't know of a single image that has the nails or the nail holes through the wrists.
I think that we can say with absolute certainty that is was "not common knowledge in the Middle Ages" that the victims were nailed through the wrist rather than through the hand. If it were "common knowledge" then artists would have depicted it. They did not.
I must say here that of the artworks that we have from the Medieval period, perhaps we must presume that the majority, or at least a large part were executed by illiterate craftsmen plying a trade, rather than artists with education and prestige. But we must also assume that the vast majority of those who commissioned works of art for significant churches, abbeys and cathedrals were well educated, particularly in matters of faith, religious tradition and the Bible. These bishops, abbots and priests devised complex artistic schemes of decoration to be carried out by the artists. They were rigorous about getting the iconography "correct". Had a body of clergy known that the crucifixion was actually performed in a different manner to the way in which it was depicted, then it is highly unlikely they would have failed to put the record straight. You cannot underestimate the importance placed on works of art as a means of educating the illiterate in religious matters.
One is led to conclude that either, if it were a fact that, in general, crucifixions were performed in this way, then both memory and any readily-available written record of that fact was lost, or else it was not a fact at all, and that crucifixions were regularly performed with the nails through the palms, as they are depicted.
-- Amandajm 15:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 15:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've added a brief note under the "Analysis of artistic style" heading about the ratio of top/bottom of face. The basic concept is from an old visual arts textbook I no longer remember the name of (which used the shroud of Turin as an exmaple of how _not_ to do portraits), but the measurements are my own. I'm terribly sorry if this is irrelevant or should fall under another heading. Spazzm 10:53, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
During the fourteenth century, the shroud was often publicly exposed, though not continuously, since the bishop of Troyes, Henri de Poitiers, had prohibited veneration of the image. Thirty-two years after this pronouncement, the image was displayed again, and King Charles VI of France ordered its removal to Troyes, citing the impropriety of the image. The sheriffs were unable to carry out the order.
um, shouldn't there be a reason as to why the sheriffs where unable to carry out the order?
Project2501a 20:57, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous user added this comment about Image:Shroud positive negative compare.jpg:
Is he right? I don't know much about photography, but i know there's a difference between a photographic negative and the digital negation of an image file. - ℘yrop (talk) 23:21, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
About the Leonardo portrait, check this URL [2] It says that that is not a Leonardo portrait.
I've removed the link from "Avigliano", although not the placename itself. All the other places in that list are in Piemonte, but the two towns named Avigliano in Italy, Avigliano (PZ) and Avigliano Umbro, are nowhere near here, there are no other sizable towns by that name (and by sizable, I mean down to the village/hamlet level, I'm looking at a detailed atlas of Italy that frequently indexes places with no more than 100 inhabitants); and I find no record as to which, if either, Avigliano the Shroud might have been in. Frankly, I suspect a typo for Avigliana, which at least has the merit of being in Turin province, and thus in the Piemonte as well. Bill 12:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Greetings!
Fantastic article. It gives fair and equal time to all positions, neither favouring claims of the Shroud's falsehood or its authenticity. Nevertheless, and I might add that this is understandable given the past 20 years of Shroud debate, McCrone appears to be exempt from the scrutiny applied to the findings of other scientists. One final paragraph dismisses a scientist's findings on the basis that some of his samples might have been damaged or spoiled. Given that no peer-reviewed article has supported McCrone's findings in 18(or so) years, and that several others have rather concluded his research was based upon spoiled specimens and thus clearly invalid, paragraphs discussing McCrone's analysis might have a similar disclaimer. All the same, this is a fantastic article and one the supporters and readers of Wikipedia should be proud to have.
comment:
Actually, the work of McCrone is given rather short shrift in the article. I've read his book and another based on it, and both are quite well argued and illustrated with photos of microscopic enlargements of the areas he examined. It should also be noted that it took McCrone's critics a considerable amount of time to come up with the speculation (which they later stated as a fact) that McCrone's samples were spoiled. The initial complaints were that McCrone was "tampering with the faith of simple believers" and so on. Indeed, McCrone himself, as shown in the notes reproduced in his book, assumed that the colored areas were bloodstains, but after examining them microscopically he noted "I have never seen blood behave like this before." They did, however, seem to him to look and behave like paint pigments. It's true that nobody else has reached similar conclusions, but then nobody else has conducted a similar analysis. Based on his conclusions, McCrone predicted a carbon-14 dating consistent with a 14th-century origin, which is what the subsequent carbon-14 test did in fact come up with. I'm trying to see the merit in the idea that the test must have been flawed, or that the results are contaminated with extraneous matter, but I can't see how the latter could be the case unless the contaminations were in excess of the bulk of the shroud itself. Certainly the archbishop of Turin accepted the findings (and was retired before his time by order of the Vatican). Initially, so did most of those who later denied the validity of the test. All this is of importance, and perhaps a refutation of McCrone's findings should have been included in the article.
Tom Amity 129.93.17.66 03:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following:
Every bit of this content is mentioned earlier in the article. I think that conclusions are very un-wiki. State the facts. State all the facts. No need to restate them. No need to analyze them. The purpose of this article should not be to draw a conclusion about the Shroud but merely to present all the facts and history allowing the reader to make their own decision. Moreover, concluding with this section has the effect of shifting the tone of the article to an argument between scientific and religious theories about the Shroud, which wikipedia is not the place for. There is no concluding statement for each side. Repetition be destroyed, savidan (talk) (e@) 20:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
This raises an interesting question. Is the purpose of an encyclopedia to inform or to simply report? The same question is asked of dictionaries. Some people use "infer" as a synonym for "imply". Therefore some dictionaries report that "infer" now is a synonym for "imply". The same holds for this article. The shroud is a hoax. We know that. The statements that support its miraculous origin have been refuted over and over again. And yet, this is a featured article because it does not pass judgment, but simply reports. Just as dictionaries now report that "infer" means the same thing as "imply". I'm not trying to answer the question I raise. I'm just asking -- does NPOV require that all strongly held beliefs be given equal weight. Does, for example, the article on the Holocaust give equal weight to those who strongly believe that the Holocaust never happened? Rick Norwood 23:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I was reading the article on the shroud and its proper ownership when I read the following incredible passage:
"However, it should also be remembered that the Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox denominations took their origins from schism from the Catholic Church, and therefore, strictly speaking, owe their allegiance to the Pope anyway."
I'm sure this offends every single Orthodox Christian and it is my opinion (though I am not an Orthodox Christian) clearly a Catholic bias. The historical division between Western (Latin) and Eastern (Greek) Christianity was a long process in which a dogmatically unified faith begins to split into it two divergent paths EVEN starting at the close of the Early Christian era (c. 500/600) even though the official split is dated at 1054.
Perhaps most notable affirmation of union between east and west is at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, where Constantinople and Rome stood united against other eastern, oriental faiths such as Nestorian and Monophysite Christianity. But the division has due with linguistic social, political and theological differences of the two sides, including the nature of papal authority. And it should be noted the a cultural division between a Greek East and a Latin West was even the case for an earlier Roman empire, and aids in explaining the the eventual division of the Mediterranean wide Christian Church into its western and eastern halves.
Many Orthodox would see the above comment in the reverse--it is Catholicism that is the splinter group and it was the blatant assertion of papal authority in the later Middle Ages that was the problem, notably in emeding the Nicene Creed by unilaterally asserting the filioque clause. This was felt to be in violation of the ecumenical spirit in which the creed was made (in this case, the first two Councils: Nicea I and Constantinople I)--something established by an Ecumenical council could only be changed by a another such council and not by one part of the Church, viz., the Roman see, unilaterally.
Part of this relates to the nature of Apostolic sees in the Western vs. Eastern Mediterranean: the West just had one: Rome. The East had four: Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria (though the latter three would come under Muslim dominance after the seventh century). Thus the east tended to regard Apostolic authority in a more collegial light compared to western Europeans who saw Rome as THE Apostolic See. Likewise, the political authority of the papacy in the west was naturally much greater as it filled a power vacuum owing to the collapse of WESTERN, secular Imperial Roman authority in the fifth century. No such thing occurs in the Eastern Church as Roman Imperial authority survived in the person of the Byzantine emperor and as the Eastern Roman Empire evolves into Byzantium, a continuation of the Roman world into the Middle Ages.
The book to read on this, among others, is Peter Brown's, The World of Late Antiquity (1971; 1989). Another is Roger E. Olson The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition and Reform (1999).
But the idea that Eastern Orthodoxy is nothing more than an "eastern Protestantism" is really preposterous. Historically, they should be better seen, in my opinion, as two equivalent branches of an earlier faith without necessarily seeing one as subordinate to the other. The above comment ought to be scrapped.
Likewise, for the sake of argument on both historical and ethical grounds, IF the shroud is the one identified with Edessa (and a big "if") and thus was stolen from the east then it belongs to the east and the appeal to Papal authority in my mind is odd way to just a theft, let alone a sacking of venerable city, Constantinople (which John Paul II apologized for).
It appears that this edit has changed the external link appropriately but has incorrectly quoted what is actually written on the pages of the Codex. -- Rednblu 17:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the sentence that said, to effect, that when the backing of the cloth was removed in 2002 and it was photographed "a posterior image of the figure" was revealed on the underside of the cloth. The deleted material was confusing because the "posterior image" ie "the back view" of the figure has always been visible when the cloth was displayed. tThe cloth shows both front and posterior, lengthwise.
The term "posterior" usually refers to a figure. In this case it was the backside of the cloth that was revealed, not the backside of the figure. One might presume that if there was an image on the reverse of the cloth, it would mirror that on the front of the cloth, perhaps fainter. I would like to insert the appropriate sentence to make up for that which I have deleted, but cannot do so as I am unfamiliar with the report and, to my recollection, have not seen a photo of the underside of the cloth. Would it be possible to say that a mirror image was revealed?
-- Amandajm 06:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
OK! I'm old and ignorant of 21st century practices.... but please will one of you explain to me why, within this article, a ratio is expressed as 1:1 and then the next ratio/proportion (well is it a ratio or what?) is expressed as 0.75 or 0.90 or some such. Are these decimal quantities supposed to mean the same as 1:75 and 1:90? Or do they really mean 0:75 and 0:90? Or do they mean 100:75 and 100:90? Or perhaps 25:75 and 10:90?
I have no doubt that you know what you mean. But just let's have some consistency and some consideration for the mathematically challenged!
-- Amandajm 13:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
It means 1:0.75 or 1:0.9 - what would be expected with thought.
-- 211.31.41.70 11:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Another problem with the validity of the shroud according to some is that the image of the supposed Jesus does not match with biblical accounts. They say that the Bible says that Jesus was flogged so severely by the Romans that his face no longer looked recognizable and it was so disfigured that it did not even look human. This would be consistent with the severity of Roman torture as outlined by authors such as Livy, Titus, and Julius Caesar. So if the Biblical account of Jesus' beatings are accurate then the image that we would see on the shroud would be near impossible to identify as a human let alone the face of Jesus. However, this argument is without merit. This text does not occur in the Gospels. The reference is rather to the "Song of the Suffering Servant" in the prophet Isaiah (52:14), written eight centuries before Christ, which is used in the Liturgy (e.g. on Good Friday) as a prophecy of the sufferings of the Messiah. It is decidedly not an eyewitness description!
Are there any objections to my deleting this passage, which strikes me as a pretty obvious example of Original Research?-- CJGB (Chris) 15:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I should be grateful if editors from here could look at Edward Thomas Hall. Can you source, or disprove, the claim that he helped to date the Shroud, please? BlueValour 23:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Codex, I apologize for clashing with you a bit here, but I feel quite strongly that this clause ("Some believe it is the cloth that covered Jesus of Nazareth when he was placed in his tomb and that his image was somehow recorded on its fibers as a photographic negative at or near the time of his proclaimed resurrection") should not be in the intro paragraph and in fact is misleading anywhere in the article. First, there are many image modes that people believe in that have nothing "photographic" or photography-like about them (see the sections on impressions from sculptures or bodies and image formation by bas-relief, amongst others). Second, most of the more advanced "Shroudies" and almost all scientists coming from imaging backgrounds believe the idea of the photographic negative is understandable in this case, but usually misleading. Thy believe the image is probably a negative of something, but certainly not a photographic negative and not even directly analogous to a negative photo. One must bear in mind that it is the modern photographic negative that revealed tremendous detail on the Shroud, but this is quite distinct from concluding or arguing that the Shroud actually is a photographic negative. See this paper by Peter Schumacher for a good explanation: [4]. Thanks JDG 04:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)... BTW, I was an original author on this article way back-- not that I'm asserting ownership or anything, but just so you know I'm not swooping down out of left field. JDG
"Photography is the process of making pictures by means of the action of light. Light patterns reflected or emitted from objects are recorded onto a sensitive medium or storage chip through a timed exposure. The process is done through mechanical, chemical or digital devices known as cameras."
References in the article are a complete mess: some with {{ note}}, some with inline links, and some with <ref>. Any objections against converting them all to <ref>? -- Tgr 12:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The second paragraph presents negative arguments as to the 'validity' of the Shroud. The third paragraph presents positive arguments as to the 'validity' of the Shroud. As the significance of the Shroud owes itself to the positive arguments -- its argued associated with Jesus -- shouldn't those come first and the negative arguments second? From an objective standpoint it seems odd to say 'why it may not be' before 'why it may be.'
What is 14C?
Yes, (14C) is the proper form for an isotope in chemistry. However saying "14 carbon" doesn't make much sense. Leave it as "carbon-14." Crucible Guardian 20:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
What's the position of the Vatican on the shroud? The speech I linked to seems to suggest that he believes it's a matter for the science to determine the origin, and if the science concludes it's from the middle ages it's fine by them. However, confirmation by somebody fluent in Catholicese would be helpful.-- Robert Merkel
The official possition is that the origin is unknown. However, as with any other relic of dubious origin, personal devotion is not officially prevented or encouraged. The Pope (the present one) is clearly devout to it, but you have to take into account that the present Pope is Eastern, and so he is very devout of Icons, and the shroud can be seen as one (and one especially gifted). Pfortuny 09:59, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Pfortuny's comments (above) are perfect examples of "adding apples and oranges". British possessiveness of the mummies in their museums is in no way analogous to the Catholic Church's habit of preventing critical investigation of the Turin shroud. The age and origin of the mummies in British museums is not in question. They've already been examined. If a question should arise regarding the authenticity of one or more of these mummies, and the British government refuses to allow an investigation, or allows only an already-biased group (equivalent to STURP) to do the investigating, then will be the time to criticize the British government for not allowing scientists to examine the mummies closely enough.
This Pfortuny has got to go. What is meant by "The present Pope [I take it this post dates from the reign of John Paul II] is Eastern, and so he is very devout of Icons"? Just because a Catholic is from an eastern European country doesn't make him "devout of icons". Polish Catholics, unless they belong to a Uniate jurisdiction, don't employ icons in their worship any more than French or Italian or Irish Catholics do. Nor do other non-Uniate Catholics. The ones who are "devout of icons" are the Orthodox, not Catholics ("eastern" or otherwise). True, most Orthodox churches are in eastern Europe or the Middle East, hence they're often called "Eastern Orthodox", but it's an incredible folly to confuse them with Polish Catholics. tom.amity 129.93.17.63 03:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Was this a BBC documentary? When was it broadcast? I can't find any refereence for the BBC broadcasting this programme, but I can references to it being broadcast by the National Geographic channel. Mintguy 10:43, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
"Many people believe it is the cloth that covered Jesus of Nazareth when he was placed in his tomb and that his image was somehow recorded on its fibers at the moment of his resurrection. Skeptics contend it is a medieval hoax or forgery. Scientists, theologians and historians continue to debate where, when and how the shroud and image were created." ....The Shroud of Turin has so much to teach us— about human nature, about cult and the victim, about the weighting of evidence, about the psychology of fraud and the psychology of belief, about the value of pilgrimages in the medieval economy, about the nature of revealed religion itself. None of which is wikipediable. The tone of this entry is Wikipedia at its most craven. Any effort here is in vain. User:Wetman
User Eloquence removed phrase "Its true origin remains uncertain", claiming NNPOV. But no statement could be more NPOV. Even if one belives the shroud is a hoax, the manner, region and year of its production are still matters of total speculation. Thus the uncertainty of its origin is a simple fact. Of course, a great many serious and credentialed researchers have cast grave doubt on the accuracy of the 1988 Carbon-14 dating, which has so far been the only potentially empirical basis for declaring the shroud a hoax-- so any honest appraisal of the debate would have to use the term "uncertain" at least until a more rigorous radiocarbon test is done. JDG 07:34, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Moved this to talk:
To understand the long and impassioned debate surrounding the shroud one must understand the unique properties of the image. It is like no other religious relic or work of art dating from either ancient or medieval times. Its sheer haunting visual realism is the primary reason efforts to show it is a forgery have needed to be so strenuous and oft-repeated. The shroud has occasioned an about-face to the usual Reason vs Faith scenario, for here the faithful have something tangible, visible and compelling to hold up while it is the scientific skeptic who must argue from the intangible and invisible. Only an individual with scant appreciation for the challenges of the graphic arts could view the image on the shroud and feel there is nothing remarkable about it: if the image was not miraculously formed, the forger possessed nearly miraculous talent and technique.
It's certainly not agreed that the image is particularly "haunting", "remarkable", or "real", nor does carbon-dating seem particularly intangible. It's also fairly clear that "impassioned debate" arises not from the qualities of the image, but from passionate disagreements over its subject matter. - Nunh-huh 09:01, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: could you both either
And in any case, could you please use your personal talk pages to continue the discussion?
No offence intended, just that I noticed the air was getting warmer here and... well, errr, I prefer a cool environment. Pfortuny 08:04, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Only someone with a serious deficit in aesthetic understanding and perception would make that statement" is an ad hominem attack, plain and simple, and it's unacceptable tone around here. JDG, we all know by now how you feel about the image. That is of no relevance whatsoever to the actual article, as artistic perception is by definition inherently POV. You can make people believe that a black dot on a green background is "haunting" and "remarkable", it's simply a matter of marketing. So when we talk about art (if you want to see the Fraud of Turin as art) we always have to attribute beliefs and opinions. See also Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial.-- Eloquence * 23:09, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)
I could not find a more appropriate section for this so... In the 'second image on back of cloth' section, the writer claims that the image on the back of the cloth would make the "photographic theory impossible." Supposing that the photographic theory is correct, why couldn't the technique just have been used twice, or perhaps used on the back as on the front of shroud? The validity of this statement is very questionable, or at leeast warrants an explanation. I'll delete it in a few days. -- XAdHominemx 01:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to have a comparison for the "unparalleled artistic quality" claims, here's a random Fayum mummy portrait from ancient Roman Egypt, grayscale and blurred, positive and negative:
File:Shroud-compare1.jpg File:Shroud-compare2.jpg
-- [DELETED IMAGE OF SHROUD CLOSEUP WAS HERE] --
Which one has the greater artistic quality? Which one provides more detail? The answer to that question is inherently POV.
These mummy portraits were a commodity, by the way, they were not in any way unusual. In fact, the best artists of the time probably produced even more photorealistic images, but none survived the Dark Ages. They didn't just rot away -- many of the greatest works of art were deliberately destroyed, as Christianization brought with it iconoclasm, a curious trait of religious fundamentalism that would be revived by the Taliban many centuries later. -- Eloquence * 02:42, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
Questions (mainly to JDG, bc I am at a loss)
Maybe those questions are related and related to the discussion, but I dunno. Answers are appreciated from anyone :) Pfortuny 07:03, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Fayam portrait
Here's my POV as an Art Historian who is familiar with Fayam mummy portraits. To say that this is a "random" Fayam mummy portrait is a subtle excercise in wool-pulling! This is no "random" portrait. It is one of the finest and most expertly-handled, most three-dimensional and beautiful of all the known Fayam portraits.
These portraits were painted by artists who undoubtedly specialised in creating these life-like images. Unlike Leonardo, their output probably ran into hundreds or thousands of portraits in a productive lifetime. Some of them were very very (POV, POV!) skilful at achieving a lifelike and 3D face. And they brought to life the dead body at which they were looking, fleshed it out and gave it "soul" as expertly as the most expert modern forensic sculptor.
But, (and this of course is a value judgement, made for the benefit of those who are not familiar with this particular artform) this Fayam portrait goes well beyond the average in depiction of that which is lifelike. The writer has, I suspect, selected the finest example he could locate in order to make the point, whatever the particular point is.....
ON THE VINLAND MAP -
On this topic, Pfortuny is as usual immoderate. The Vinland map was "declared authentic" by a conference whose sole purpose seems to have been the discrediting of McCrone with the aim of upping the authenticity of the shroud of Turin. Nobody took this conference seriously, except the advocates of the Turin shroud for whom it's just about their favorite conference in the world. The interesting thing about this conference is that its organizers DIDN'T INVITE McCRONE, which is extremely odd since he's the one who did the work on the Vinland map to begin with! Whom do they think they're kidding? Tom.amity 129.93.17.63 04:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
-- Amandajm 06:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
This article is beginning to become one of those one starts to read eagerly and at the middle of it one says "oh, if it were simply a bit shorter I would read it completely". Mmmhhh.... Pfortuny 09:47, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Given my positive experience with other wikipedia articles, I was surprised to find this article on the Shroud of Turin to be presented in such a non-neutral manner. The piece is filled with unsupported and unsupportable editorial comments, presents very questionable claims as uncontested fact, and generally presents the religious view of the Shroud as the only credible alternative. (65.24.113.156)
There has been a lot of use of the phrases "pro-Shroud" and "anti-Shroud", as if these were the only possible positions. Anti-Shroud is clear enough - it's the position that the shroud is a hoax, probably medieval - but what are we to understand by pro-Shroud? Presumably the pro-Shroud viewpoint is that the cloth really is the grave-wrapping of Jesus, but this leaves the question of whether the image was produced by natural or miraculous means. Lumping both answers to that question into one "side" of the debate confuses things greatly.
My personal belief (if anyone cares) is that the cloth was indeed used to wrap the body of Jesus - who was after all a historical person. While most genuine relics have probably been lost, it's not inconceivable that one may have survived, and all the scientific evidence seems to point that way (with the exception of the carbon-dating which has been called into question in any case). I don't beleive in miracles, though, and I attribute the image on the cloth to a rare but explicable chemical and physical process. I remember being shown at school a video of a documentary about the shroud, in which they embalmed a body in the same way as practiced in the 1st century and left it in a cave for three days. Afterwards, the cloth had a recognisable image on it. Smudgy and blurry, and nothing like the detail of the Turin shroud, but enough to show that the idea of a natural "printing" is a possibility. --Pete
Nice reorganizing/rephrasing, James M. Lane. As a result of these and other recent improvements this article is truly top-notch. The foremost but unheralded star was an anonymous user (68 dot something) a few months ago who contributed really excellent material in the "Theories of Image Formation" section. In fact, I wonder if the anon user may have been Dr. Rogers of Los Alamos himself... Sadly, the cadres of reflexive skeptics that dominate Wikipedia, led here by Eloquence and Wetman, cannot abide a balanced article on a topic like the shroud, so even though the fineness of detail and quality of writing exceeds 90% of those in Featured Articles, it will never be promoted to that list. JDG 18:21, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Hi. It seems to me that the problem with the "controvery" section isn't necessarily the content but the layout and organization. The non-skeptics deserve to have their opinions stated; but with the present mixed-up arrangement the article does seem rather unscientific. Furthermore, there is a lot of cart-before-the-horsing: rebuttals before the argument they're rebutting; micro-analysis before macro-analysis. So, although I don't know enough about the issue to rewrite it, here's my proposed layout for the section:
This seems like a far more logical order to put things in. Data should come before possible conclusions; right now the article has the reverse arrangement. Doops 20:18, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"This chemical layer, which is about as thick as the transparent scratch-resistant coatings used for eye glasses (about 600 mm thick)"
That's over half a meter. Is it supposed to be 600 nm? If I knew I would change it.--
Vsmith 17:16, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have put together a new version of the article at Shroud of Turin/temp, attempting to produce a more neutral tone and reorganizing the material at a few places. I may have put too many "subheadings" in -- I personally hate reading huge blocks of text with no visual cues of where I am...
I have added some amount of material myself, but almost all comes from the original article here. There are two points in the text where I have indicated a lack of references with HTML comments embedded in the edit text. Otherwise, it seems to be pretty-well documented. Note that I found a couple of paragraphs to be copied verbatim from various websites, so I have literally rewritten everything, so as to remove all trace of copyright violation (hopefully). Have a look. The other unresolved objection would be the photo, which someone suggested might be a copyright violation.
Ideally, the main image here should be a positive image, with the negative occuring along side the discussion of the negative image. It might be good to also get an image of the whole thing, with both images, to put elsewhere in the article. -- Mpolo 14:33, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
This article still argues way too strongly in favor of the 'religious' view that the shroud really is Jesus's burial cloth, despite the fact that the known history begins in 1357. → R Young { yakł talk} 08:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Mpolo, it looks like I'll be making quite a few changes. Rather than doing a lot of separate saves, I'll bunch the changes into a few saves and use the list below to catalog my reasons for each edit.
First round of edits:
Second round of edits:
Third round:
Fourth round (moving backwards to "Theories of image formation" section):
Well, I've got to quit for now (unfortunately I was recently diagnosed with a serious illness and cannot keep at it too long). If most of these edits are retained I have no problem with the /temp version going live (understanding, of course, that the normal Wiki process will be ongoing). Nice work, Mpolo. JDG 16:36, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Despite your gibes and sneers it looks like Shroud of Turin is on its way to FA, as Mpolo's rewrite is meeting with approval from most of those who have objected. A small victory for genuine freethinkers. I wouldn't go quite so far as to suggest you change your username to AllWetMan. Yet, anyway." JDG 00:20, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC) (In fact I supported Shroud of Turin as a Featured Article, because it is quite characteristic of a certain aspect of Wikipedia. "Free"thinkers indeed! Wetman 00:29, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC))
I'm feeling guilty every time Wikipedia complains about the article being 41 kb long. Any ideas about what could go into a sub-article. I was thinking the History section would be the likeliest candidate, though that would remove the single strongest "skeptical" argument from the main article (it would be mentioned in the summary paragraph, but necessarily in abbreviated form). The "Controversy" has to stay because that's really the main point of the article. Other sections are too short to do much good. Or maybe we defy the 32kb "limit" -- How hard is that limit these days? -- Mpolo 10:55, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 10:49, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)) The article says:
The "many examples" would benefit from linking to some of them. Googling for mummy 1770 turns up only shroud-related stuff: is this an urban myth?
I object to the new 2nd paragraph and will delete it if no one makes a strong argument for it here. One of this article's virtues was that it presented facts and history before jumping into the controversy. The new paragraph jumps right into it before the reader has the basics. JDG 09:31, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I nominated this in Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates. Muriel G 13:30, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is a very nice article, well written, good references, the paradigm of npoviness. So nice that I'm translating it for the wiki.pt. Unfortunately, sorry for being a spoil sport, its a bit messy due to heavy mixing of fact and interpretation. Moreover, the pursue of describing all possible points of view goes to the extreme of dilluting what is actually important. I understand that it needs to be comprehensive but big, gentlemen, its not always the best (mind the joke). To conclude, i would suggest some cutting and organizing under the principles of less is more. Cheers, muriel
I think there should be a copy of the self portrait of Da Vinci on the Da Vinci made the shroud bit.
When compared next to one another, the likeness is remarkable, you think "oh my god. Im looking at a photograph of Leonardo Da Vinci" CheeseDreams 22:33, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hey Mpolo-- what happened to the Pia face image, do you know? It's getting reported as missing. JDG
Surely this is wrong - you wouldn't be able to see anything in a negative until it had been developed? Pretzelpaws 01:31, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The piercing of the wrists rather than the palms goes against traditional Christian iconography, especially in the Middle Ages, but many modern scholars suggest that crucifixion victims were generally nailed through the wrists, and a skeleton discovered in the Holy Land shows that at least some were nailed between the radius and ulna; this was not common knowledge in the Middle Ages.
Where in the "Holy Land"? When used alone like this, I don't think Holy Land is clear as Christians' label for the area, and the term should be replaced with an objective label. 119 04:52, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, regarding "this was not common knowledge in the Middle Ages" — can we get this more specific? Is it known that there were at least some who knew this, or do we have no information at all as to whether this was known in the Middle Ages? Does everyone who mentions crucifixion claim the nails went through the wrists, for example? Were there only artistic depictions of this, or also more scholarly descriptions? JRM 20:49, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
Re: nails in wrists v. hands: A recent documentary on National Geographic Channel featured scientists who are now convinced that the metacarpal bones in the hands would support a crucified body; this based on empirical data. The general acceptance of this thesis needs to be investigated, and the article updated accordingly. 19:48 18 Aug 2005 soverman
I have looked at hundreds of images of the crucifixion and of Christ with the wounds of the crucifion. I don't know of a single image that has the nails or the nail holes through the wrists.
I think that we can say with absolute certainty that is was "not common knowledge in the Middle Ages" that the victims were nailed through the wrist rather than through the hand. If it were "common knowledge" then artists would have depicted it. They did not.
I must say here that of the artworks that we have from the Medieval period, perhaps we must presume that the majority, or at least a large part were executed by illiterate craftsmen plying a trade, rather than artists with education and prestige. But we must also assume that the vast majority of those who commissioned works of art for significant churches, abbeys and cathedrals were well educated, particularly in matters of faith, religious tradition and the Bible. These bishops, abbots and priests devised complex artistic schemes of decoration to be carried out by the artists. They were rigorous about getting the iconography "correct". Had a body of clergy known that the crucifixion was actually performed in a different manner to the way in which it was depicted, then it is highly unlikely they would have failed to put the record straight. You cannot underestimate the importance placed on works of art as a means of educating the illiterate in religious matters.
One is led to conclude that either, if it were a fact that, in general, crucifixions were performed in this way, then both memory and any readily-available written record of that fact was lost, or else it was not a fact at all, and that crucifixions were regularly performed with the nails through the palms, as they are depicted.
-- Amandajm 15:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 15:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've added a brief note under the "Analysis of artistic style" heading about the ratio of top/bottom of face. The basic concept is from an old visual arts textbook I no longer remember the name of (which used the shroud of Turin as an exmaple of how _not_ to do portraits), but the measurements are my own. I'm terribly sorry if this is irrelevant or should fall under another heading. Spazzm 10:53, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
During the fourteenth century, the shroud was often publicly exposed, though not continuously, since the bishop of Troyes, Henri de Poitiers, had prohibited veneration of the image. Thirty-two years after this pronouncement, the image was displayed again, and King Charles VI of France ordered its removal to Troyes, citing the impropriety of the image. The sheriffs were unable to carry out the order.
um, shouldn't there be a reason as to why the sheriffs where unable to carry out the order?
Project2501a 20:57, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous user added this comment about Image:Shroud positive negative compare.jpg:
Is he right? I don't know much about photography, but i know there's a difference between a photographic negative and the digital negation of an image file. - ℘yrop (talk) 23:21, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
About the Leonardo portrait, check this URL [2] It says that that is not a Leonardo portrait.
I've removed the link from "Avigliano", although not the placename itself. All the other places in that list are in Piemonte, but the two towns named Avigliano in Italy, Avigliano (PZ) and Avigliano Umbro, are nowhere near here, there are no other sizable towns by that name (and by sizable, I mean down to the village/hamlet level, I'm looking at a detailed atlas of Italy that frequently indexes places with no more than 100 inhabitants); and I find no record as to which, if either, Avigliano the Shroud might have been in. Frankly, I suspect a typo for Avigliana, which at least has the merit of being in Turin province, and thus in the Piemonte as well. Bill 12:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Greetings!
Fantastic article. It gives fair and equal time to all positions, neither favouring claims of the Shroud's falsehood or its authenticity. Nevertheless, and I might add that this is understandable given the past 20 years of Shroud debate, McCrone appears to be exempt from the scrutiny applied to the findings of other scientists. One final paragraph dismisses a scientist's findings on the basis that some of his samples might have been damaged or spoiled. Given that no peer-reviewed article has supported McCrone's findings in 18(or so) years, and that several others have rather concluded his research was based upon spoiled specimens and thus clearly invalid, paragraphs discussing McCrone's analysis might have a similar disclaimer. All the same, this is a fantastic article and one the supporters and readers of Wikipedia should be proud to have.
comment:
Actually, the work of McCrone is given rather short shrift in the article. I've read his book and another based on it, and both are quite well argued and illustrated with photos of microscopic enlargements of the areas he examined. It should also be noted that it took McCrone's critics a considerable amount of time to come up with the speculation (which they later stated as a fact) that McCrone's samples were spoiled. The initial complaints were that McCrone was "tampering with the faith of simple believers" and so on. Indeed, McCrone himself, as shown in the notes reproduced in his book, assumed that the colored areas were bloodstains, but after examining them microscopically he noted "I have never seen blood behave like this before." They did, however, seem to him to look and behave like paint pigments. It's true that nobody else has reached similar conclusions, but then nobody else has conducted a similar analysis. Based on his conclusions, McCrone predicted a carbon-14 dating consistent with a 14th-century origin, which is what the subsequent carbon-14 test did in fact come up with. I'm trying to see the merit in the idea that the test must have been flawed, or that the results are contaminated with extraneous matter, but I can't see how the latter could be the case unless the contaminations were in excess of the bulk of the shroud itself. Certainly the archbishop of Turin accepted the findings (and was retired before his time by order of the Vatican). Initially, so did most of those who later denied the validity of the test. All this is of importance, and perhaps a refutation of McCrone's findings should have been included in the article.
Tom Amity 129.93.17.66 03:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following:
Every bit of this content is mentioned earlier in the article. I think that conclusions are very un-wiki. State the facts. State all the facts. No need to restate them. No need to analyze them. The purpose of this article should not be to draw a conclusion about the Shroud but merely to present all the facts and history allowing the reader to make their own decision. Moreover, concluding with this section has the effect of shifting the tone of the article to an argument between scientific and religious theories about the Shroud, which wikipedia is not the place for. There is no concluding statement for each side. Repetition be destroyed, savidan (talk) (e@) 20:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
This raises an interesting question. Is the purpose of an encyclopedia to inform or to simply report? The same question is asked of dictionaries. Some people use "infer" as a synonym for "imply". Therefore some dictionaries report that "infer" now is a synonym for "imply". The same holds for this article. The shroud is a hoax. We know that. The statements that support its miraculous origin have been refuted over and over again. And yet, this is a featured article because it does not pass judgment, but simply reports. Just as dictionaries now report that "infer" means the same thing as "imply". I'm not trying to answer the question I raise. I'm just asking -- does NPOV require that all strongly held beliefs be given equal weight. Does, for example, the article on the Holocaust give equal weight to those who strongly believe that the Holocaust never happened? Rick Norwood 23:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I was reading the article on the shroud and its proper ownership when I read the following incredible passage:
"However, it should also be remembered that the Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox denominations took their origins from schism from the Catholic Church, and therefore, strictly speaking, owe their allegiance to the Pope anyway."
I'm sure this offends every single Orthodox Christian and it is my opinion (though I am not an Orthodox Christian) clearly a Catholic bias. The historical division between Western (Latin) and Eastern (Greek) Christianity was a long process in which a dogmatically unified faith begins to split into it two divergent paths EVEN starting at the close of the Early Christian era (c. 500/600) even though the official split is dated at 1054.
Perhaps most notable affirmation of union between east and west is at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, where Constantinople and Rome stood united against other eastern, oriental faiths such as Nestorian and Monophysite Christianity. But the division has due with linguistic social, political and theological differences of the two sides, including the nature of papal authority. And it should be noted the a cultural division between a Greek East and a Latin West was even the case for an earlier Roman empire, and aids in explaining the the eventual division of the Mediterranean wide Christian Church into its western and eastern halves.
Many Orthodox would see the above comment in the reverse--it is Catholicism that is the splinter group and it was the blatant assertion of papal authority in the later Middle Ages that was the problem, notably in emeding the Nicene Creed by unilaterally asserting the filioque clause. This was felt to be in violation of the ecumenical spirit in which the creed was made (in this case, the first two Councils: Nicea I and Constantinople I)--something established by an Ecumenical council could only be changed by a another such council and not by one part of the Church, viz., the Roman see, unilaterally.
Part of this relates to the nature of Apostolic sees in the Western vs. Eastern Mediterranean: the West just had one: Rome. The East had four: Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria (though the latter three would come under Muslim dominance after the seventh century). Thus the east tended to regard Apostolic authority in a more collegial light compared to western Europeans who saw Rome as THE Apostolic See. Likewise, the political authority of the papacy in the west was naturally much greater as it filled a power vacuum owing to the collapse of WESTERN, secular Imperial Roman authority in the fifth century. No such thing occurs in the Eastern Church as Roman Imperial authority survived in the person of the Byzantine emperor and as the Eastern Roman Empire evolves into Byzantium, a continuation of the Roman world into the Middle Ages.
The book to read on this, among others, is Peter Brown's, The World of Late Antiquity (1971; 1989). Another is Roger E. Olson The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition and Reform (1999).
But the idea that Eastern Orthodoxy is nothing more than an "eastern Protestantism" is really preposterous. Historically, they should be better seen, in my opinion, as two equivalent branches of an earlier faith without necessarily seeing one as subordinate to the other. The above comment ought to be scrapped.
Likewise, for the sake of argument on both historical and ethical grounds, IF the shroud is the one identified with Edessa (and a big "if") and thus was stolen from the east then it belongs to the east and the appeal to Papal authority in my mind is odd way to just a theft, let alone a sacking of venerable city, Constantinople (which John Paul II apologized for).
It appears that this edit has changed the external link appropriately but has incorrectly quoted what is actually written on the pages of the Codex. -- Rednblu 17:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the sentence that said, to effect, that when the backing of the cloth was removed in 2002 and it was photographed "a posterior image of the figure" was revealed on the underside of the cloth. The deleted material was confusing because the "posterior image" ie "the back view" of the figure has always been visible when the cloth was displayed. tThe cloth shows both front and posterior, lengthwise.
The term "posterior" usually refers to a figure. In this case it was the backside of the cloth that was revealed, not the backside of the figure. One might presume that if there was an image on the reverse of the cloth, it would mirror that on the front of the cloth, perhaps fainter. I would like to insert the appropriate sentence to make up for that which I have deleted, but cannot do so as I am unfamiliar with the report and, to my recollection, have not seen a photo of the underside of the cloth. Would it be possible to say that a mirror image was revealed?
-- Amandajm 06:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
OK! I'm old and ignorant of 21st century practices.... but please will one of you explain to me why, within this article, a ratio is expressed as 1:1 and then the next ratio/proportion (well is it a ratio or what?) is expressed as 0.75 or 0.90 or some such. Are these decimal quantities supposed to mean the same as 1:75 and 1:90? Or do they really mean 0:75 and 0:90? Or do they mean 100:75 and 100:90? Or perhaps 25:75 and 10:90?
I have no doubt that you know what you mean. But just let's have some consistency and some consideration for the mathematically challenged!
-- Amandajm 13:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
It means 1:0.75 or 1:0.9 - what would be expected with thought.
-- 211.31.41.70 11:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Another problem with the validity of the shroud according to some is that the image of the supposed Jesus does not match with biblical accounts. They say that the Bible says that Jesus was flogged so severely by the Romans that his face no longer looked recognizable and it was so disfigured that it did not even look human. This would be consistent with the severity of Roman torture as outlined by authors such as Livy, Titus, and Julius Caesar. So if the Biblical account of Jesus' beatings are accurate then the image that we would see on the shroud would be near impossible to identify as a human let alone the face of Jesus. However, this argument is without merit. This text does not occur in the Gospels. The reference is rather to the "Song of the Suffering Servant" in the prophet Isaiah (52:14), written eight centuries before Christ, which is used in the Liturgy (e.g. on Good Friday) as a prophecy of the sufferings of the Messiah. It is decidedly not an eyewitness description!
Are there any objections to my deleting this passage, which strikes me as a pretty obvious example of Original Research?-- CJGB (Chris) 15:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I should be grateful if editors from here could look at Edward Thomas Hall. Can you source, or disprove, the claim that he helped to date the Shroud, please? BlueValour 23:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Codex, I apologize for clashing with you a bit here, but I feel quite strongly that this clause ("Some believe it is the cloth that covered Jesus of Nazareth when he was placed in his tomb and that his image was somehow recorded on its fibers as a photographic negative at or near the time of his proclaimed resurrection") should not be in the intro paragraph and in fact is misleading anywhere in the article. First, there are many image modes that people believe in that have nothing "photographic" or photography-like about them (see the sections on impressions from sculptures or bodies and image formation by bas-relief, amongst others). Second, most of the more advanced "Shroudies" and almost all scientists coming from imaging backgrounds believe the idea of the photographic negative is understandable in this case, but usually misleading. Thy believe the image is probably a negative of something, but certainly not a photographic negative and not even directly analogous to a negative photo. One must bear in mind that it is the modern photographic negative that revealed tremendous detail on the Shroud, but this is quite distinct from concluding or arguing that the Shroud actually is a photographic negative. See this paper by Peter Schumacher for a good explanation: [4]. Thanks JDG 04:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)... BTW, I was an original author on this article way back-- not that I'm asserting ownership or anything, but just so you know I'm not swooping down out of left field. JDG
"Photography is the process of making pictures by means of the action of light. Light patterns reflected or emitted from objects are recorded onto a sensitive medium or storage chip through a timed exposure. The process is done through mechanical, chemical or digital devices known as cameras."
References in the article are a complete mess: some with {{ note}}, some with inline links, and some with <ref>. Any objections against converting them all to <ref>? -- Tgr 12:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)