![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Of the Shriners listed, not all of them are even listed as Freemasons, a prerequisit to the Shrine. Also, Cat:Shriners are not on a lot of their article pages. I suggest verifying each's Masonic (& Shrine) affiliation here: List of Freemasons, with citation & source; Then adding them here: List of Freemasons, Then adding Cat:Freremasons & Cat:Shriners to their articles. In the absence of this, I'd suggest removing them from this list. I will do all this myself, sooner or later, if it goes undone... Grye 08:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I would probably tend to delete this part of the talk section after completing this project, as I would hope the evolution of this issue, & it's resolution, would tend to make it redundant, by way of certain policies & watchguards being learned/enacted/etc. It's mostly a kind of workboard. Just a thought Grye 09:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
are shriner circus performers necessarily shriners?
~thansk. Xah P0lyglut 09:49, 2003 Dec 31 (UTC)
As I understand it, no. The Shrine contracts out the actual circus part of it. (That all I need, a requirement to sell the tickets AND the peanuts!
You have misunderstood. The Shrine Circus is put on by the local Shriners. Some, but not all of the local Shriners use their own clown unit for the circus. (one who knows)
No, not all the performers in the circus are Shriners. Grye 11:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
This is obviously slanted, and it doesn't give any source.
I was hoping that referring to the Shriners as a Clown society would not be offensive. I put it in. Any objections? Tom Lougheed 02:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This article's vandal-du-jour has tagged a section NPOV. Rather than revert it, though, I thought it might make an interesting discussion. Those who feel there's a POV problem with this section are invited to make edit suggestions. Rklawton 00:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
As per MSJapan's demand on the talk page, I have specified my cleanup tag to an NPOV tag...although, despite his blunt reply to my change, the page still needs cleanup. The article as it is now has a very critical tone, with words put into quotes in an unncessary and mocking way and ouright offensive statements, esp. in the History section. KyleGarvey 02:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
As said the Talk Page of the article on a GOP politician, this article is a promotional page of the Shriner's and not a true wikipedian page : Where is the Criticism Section ? There is none. It's a defaultless organization ? They don't lie ? They don't hide any skeleton in their closet ? What about the Alliance between the Freemasonry of the P-2 Lodge and La Cosa Nostra ? (See "Gladio" article) What about the tentative of the Shriner Douglas MacArthur to genocide the Chinese people with A-bombs http://hnn.us/articles/9245.html
What about the racists-warhawks like Jesse Helsm, Jack Kemp and Strom Thurmond ?
etc., etc.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodall ( talk • contribs)
The Masons and the Shriner's are supposed to be a "FRATERNAL" organizations; where is the fraternity in attempting to genocide the Chinese People ? Why these organizations don't expelled such neo-nazis ? Why the imperialists and warmongers of UK and US fill the Masons and the Shriners if these organizations are so "nice" ? Why do they just accept the rich and powerful ones in her ranks ? Why these tiny sects are so hyper-represented ?
etc., etc.
Rodall
Criticizing the Shriners for the views and actions of members is like criticizing watercolor painting because Hitler painted. Saxophobia 01:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Today's New York Times contained a front page article about inappropriate co-mingling of funds (between money raised for the Hospitals and funds raised for entertainment etc.) as well as other financial problems in the Shrine. Be prepared for lots of POV pushers coming by and wanting to add this negative info. Perhaps an ounce of prevention is in order?... ie the regular editors to this page should add something on the NYT article themselves, to prevent the discussion being controled by POV pushers. Blueboar 13:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
so I'm waiting for an admin to put this in the right place, and then I will fix the redirects. MSJapan 02:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This probably has no place in the main article, so I'm airing my views here. The 2000 decision to admit 3rd Degree Masons directly to the Shrine has brought more (and younger) brothers into the organization, but at the cost of a sharp drop in membership in the rites- particularly the York Rite. There may come a time when the Shrine admits members directly, without the requirement of their being Masons. Saxophobia 01:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, but I wonder about those men who go directly into the Shrine from their third degree- they may end up as fine Shriners but will they know enough about Masonry? Here in Albany NY (a typical masonic jurisdiction) a man may go from Candidate to Master Mason within the space of three months, or at least within one year. If the Shrine fills up with men who have taken the short cut, I think it's in danger of losing its individual character and just becoming a service organization. (I qualify my remarks by stating that I am not a member of the Shrine) Saxophobia 21:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
That was actually proposed recently, that anyone could join the Shrine, the result being that 3° Masons can join Shrine. The problem is that, in the USA, any Masonic group must be composed of 100% Master Masons to be a Masonic group. So, when the Shrine accepts non-Masons, it will no longer be a Masonic Organization. Grye 09:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to become a Noble on November 10th, so perhaps it is time to step back into this topic of discussion. I might agree that "one doesn't have to know a lot about Masonry to join the Shrine" but it certainly doesn't hurt, and non-masonic members might be likely to feel slightly excluded at times. And to PGNormand, I'll reply that Yes, the Shrine IS a service organization, but it is much more than that. Saxophobia 14:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:Shriners.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 20:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Something about the tone there just doesn't sound right, but I don't know quite how to fix it. What do others think? — Rob ( talk) 20:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Reading all this is amusing. As a Mason for 25 years and a Shriner for 12, I have to wonder where people come up with this stuff. I always enjoy reading what people tell me I believe or what I believe in. Has anyone here attended a Masonic or Shrine ceremony to actually know what goes on? Gary, June 13,2006
I think, perhaps, you misunderstood what I was talking about. I have no problem with the article. I was addressing the comments made about Masons and Shriners in this discussion. A "vague, this is funny" seems more than appropriate for what I was addressing. Gary 6-14-06
I have gone through my Shrine initiation and can attest that while there was no clowning during the ceremony, the tone was light- especially in contrast to the great seriousness of other Masonic ceremonies. (I was informed later that the procedings would have been more comic if there had been enough Nobles present to make up an Oriental Band to crash cymbals and blow horns) Saxophobia ( talk) 16:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the two external links posted in that section by User:Documentator20, whose whopping three total edits (within 20 minutes of creating the account) were all bad. First of all, there is no controversy involved; court cases are not by nature controversy. The supposed Jesters one doesn't mention either the Jesters or the Shrine by name, so it is defamatory to state that it is. The hospital CFO case note lays the blame entirely on the individual, and the hospital was the plaintiff, so I fail to see the "controversy" there either - just because someone gets caught stealing money from the place they work for, it doesn't make the place complicit in the crime. MSJapan ( talk) 05:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia page on the Fruit of Islam-the Nation of Islam's paramilitary guard-makes references to the Shriners. Could a member of the Shriners comment on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phreed100 ( talk • contribs) 18:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think you missed the point. I am not interested in how poorly the article was written. Can someone comment about the supposed connection, if indeed there is one? Has any research been done? This is the kind of forum for this discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phreed100 ( talk • contribs) 20:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC) The Nation of Islam is not connected with the Shriners. The reference of Masonic and Shrine from the nation are taught in their lessons.The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was a Master Mason and he wrote a book called The Secrets of Freemasonry. This book gives the understanding that he had about the knowledge and wisdom of the scriptures. The Shriners are called Muslim Sons. Because of the length of time it took to become a Shriner, being 35-50 yrs. according to those days and times of Muhammads time. The Nation is its own body. Freemasonry and Shrinedom are Fraternities. What you put in them you will get out of them. What is not of the Ancient Landmarks are not right and exact in the realm of this fraternity only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.255.110.162 ( talk) 04:54, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to Shriners per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:10, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine →
Shriners International — While AAONMS is the traditional name of the organization, a
Google News search suggests its official title has been "Shriners International" since at least the mid-90s.--
SarekOfVulcan (
talk)
14:26, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
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I recently added this historic PD image to the article. User:MSJapan deleted it, commenting "not indicative of anything, and therefore not really needed.)
I think it's an interesting historic image, showing a Shriner event from 80-some years ago, and a nice addition to our article. Other opinions? Thanks, Pete Tillman ( talk) 19:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
It looks like they are doing a strut called the "Camel Walk". Look it up on YouTube or wherever. It is done at parties by Shriners who go around in a circle to music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDNLbZmLINo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.20.37 ( talk) 14:01, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
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I removed some material that claims that Shriners International was declared clandestine by UGLE and GL of Arkansas. I've tried to find sources for this claim but I cannot.
It appears that the GL of Michigan withdrew recognition from SI in 2011. I'm not sure if that's still in effect, but since I can't find a source to the contrary, I left up a statement noting that the GL of Michigan does not recognize SI. I also removed a section that cautioned Masons against joining the Shriners because it might jeopardize their Blue Lodge standing. While this might be true in Michigan (if the order is still in effect), it sounds like FUD and it's otherwise unencyclopedic. That's a discussion better suited for a Masonic web forum or blog. Cosmic Sans ( talk) 19:37, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Doesn't Prince Hall Freemasonry have it's own version of the Shriners connected to it? I'm going to be honest, I'm not certain if it's considered thw same as the one that is largely populated by mainstream Masons or not. If they do, wouldn't its history be of some relevance for the article? Pepe Oats ( talk) 20:38, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
The article quotes what purports to be the obligation of a Shriner. (I'm personally not a Shriner, so I can't vouch.) The quote appears to come from a book entitled "The Mystic Shrine Illustrated: The Full Illustrated Ritual of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine" by an anonymous author. There is a version of this book available on Amazon attributed to "John Blanchard", but that version appears to be a reprint of an earlier version by an anonymous author.
I cannot find any sources that would indicate that "The Mystic Shrine Illustrated: The Full Illustrated Ritual of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine" is a reliable source. In fact, what little I can find in the way of reviews (such as on Amazon) seem to indicate that it is not accurate and does not match up to the ritual performed by the Shriners.
I wanted to open this up for comment, if anyone is interested. If not, I'll delete the quote in a few days because it does not appear that it comes from a reliable source. Cosmic Sans ( talk) 19:09, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
I'd say remove it unless a more reliable source is found. If the information is accurate, there should be no reason why reliable sources shouldn't be found. While I am not a Shriner, I think it's safe to assume that such a public and well known organization would have some documentation somewhere that we can rely on for things like obligations and ceremonies. Pepe Oats ( talk) 21:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
The Shriner's blood oath and confession of Allah as God is documented in the secret Lodge document, THE MYSTIC SHRINE, AN ILLUSTRATED RITUAL OF THE ANCIENT ARABIC ORDER NOBLES OF THE SHRINE, 1975 Edition, (pages 20-22). Remember that Allah is not just another name for God. Allah is the name of another god. In usual occult fashion, the initiate swears that he will be inseparably obligated to this "most powerful and binding oath", in advance, and that he may NEVER retract or depart from it.
"The Fez itself, is an example of this double meaning behind most of Freemasonry's facade. Worn and even carried to the grave with pompous dignity, the history of the Fez is barbaric and anti-Christian. In the early 8th century, Muslim hordes overran the Moroccan city of Fez, shouting, "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." There, they butchered approximately 50,000 Christians. These men, women and children were slain because of their faith in Christ, all in the name of Allah, the same demon god to whom every Shriner must bow, with hands tied behind his back, in worship, proclaiming him the god of his fathers in the Shrine initiation , at the Altar of Obligation."
http://www.saintsalive.com/freemasonry/fmsatansdoor.html http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/masonry_lucifers_network.html
We see perhaps the roots of this factual occurence here in an old text entitled: "The Works of Aphra Behn, Volume II" Behn, Aphra, 1640-1689
"King _Philip_ made a War in _Barbary_, Won _Tunis_, conquer'd Fez, and hand to hand Slew great _Abdela_, King of _Fez_, and Father To this _Barbarian_ Prince. _Abd_. … you fit me for Despairs, That may instruct me how to follow him in Death: Yet as I'm Prince o'th' Blood, and Cardinal too, You cannot be my Judges. _Abd_. You shall be try'd, Sir, as becomes your Quality. _Osmin_, … 'tis my Moor,--give him admittance strait, The Thought comes o'er me like a gentle Gale, Raising my Blood into a thousand Curls"
The jist being that the Moors sought and achieved revenge against King Philip for the sacking of Fez.
Of the their little known sect, it is written "The Fatimids (8th century) propped up their power by gathering the Ishmaelites into a Grand Lodge of complex initiations and hierarchical degrees; the members were used for political espionage and intrigue; the forms of the order were transmitted to Jerusalem and Europe and strongly influenced the organization, garb and ritual of the Templars, the Illuminati,and other secret fraternities of the western world. The American (Masonic) businessman is periodically a zealous Mohammedan, proud of his secret doctrine, his Moroccan fez and his Moslem shrine." (The Age of Faith, Will Durant p 289).
The Age of Faith: A History of Medieval Civilization -Christian, Islamic, and Judaic - from Constantine to Dante A.D. 325-1300 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.155.4 ( talk • contribs)
In response to your remarks, stating whether or not Allah is or is not God is completely moot since the quote I mentioned had no intention of positing this as fact. It merely mentions that the Allah being referred to is in fact a single and separate ancient God as there were many in the polytheistic religions at that time.
As far as POV'ing lets take a quick look at your response and see how many things we can pull out that one might argue are "POV":
POV: "stating that Allah is (or isn't) God is POV"
POV: "The reference to the secret oath needs better documentation " (although I tend to agree and have obliged with the request below)
POV: "the possibility that a Shriner intends to serve anything other than the Creator of the Universe seems rather remote given the Shriners' dedication to fulfilling several Biblical commands regarding children, the sick, and charity" Hitler gave out candies to children from time to time, why would people question that he was anything other than part of a vast and benevolant childrens organization?
POV: "Lastly, one should remember that sometimes a silly hat is just a silly hat." That's an absurd insinuation, when discussing an organization as heavily steeped in symbolism as The Shriners are and Freemasons in general.
The Age of Faith (The Story of Civilization, Volume 4) (Story of Civilization) ISBN: 0671012002 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671012002/104-4296238-8175903?v=glance&n=283155
The Works of Aphra Behn, Volume II by Aphra Behn EText-No. 8885 http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8885
THE MYSTIC SHRINE ILLUSTRATED By: John Blanchard eBook 126317 http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/126317-ebook.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.155.4 ( talk • contribs)
Wow! That's exactly what everyone said would happen if I tried to breathe some truth into the one of many Wikipedia disinformation campaigns! Bravo! You are obviously towing the disinformationist line very well and I wouldn't hesitate to guess that you should expect to make it to "the next level" in no time flat. Let's very quickly examine what we have: "You're arguments and citations are so absurd they speak themselves" I'd argue that I in fact made no arguments, I simply pointed out your glaringly oversimplistic POV and weak command of the English language.
"It's not that I don't wish to engage in an intelligent debate" Double negatives are intelligent? Since when?
"it's just that I find myself waiting for you to begin" Really!? I suppose you have already read all the material I've referenced and that is why you have such deep well-thought-out and intelligent responses to the issues I've attempted to bring to public attention.
Before I waste yet another minute of my precious and limited time responding to nonstatements/nonarguments here with the Wiki-weaky people I'll simply wish you all the best! =)
Take care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.155.4 ( talk • contribs)
Arabic-speaking Christians (about 5% of the Arab World) also use the word "Allah" for God. Bostoner ( talk) 03:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Also, "Allah" and "Yaweh" are the same word; both trace their origins to the now-extinct ancestral Semitic language that eventually gave rise to both Arabic and Hebrew. Laodah 04:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Of the Shriners listed, not all of them are even listed as Freemasons, a prerequisit to the Shrine. Also, Cat:Shriners are not on a lot of their article pages. I suggest verifying each's Masonic (& Shrine) affiliation here: List of Freemasons, with citation & source; Then adding them here: List of Freemasons, Then adding Cat:Freremasons & Cat:Shriners to their articles. In the absence of this, I'd suggest removing them from this list. I will do all this myself, sooner or later, if it goes undone... Grye 08:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I would probably tend to delete this part of the talk section after completing this project, as I would hope the evolution of this issue, & it's resolution, would tend to make it redundant, by way of certain policies & watchguards being learned/enacted/etc. It's mostly a kind of workboard. Just a thought Grye 09:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
are shriner circus performers necessarily shriners?
~thansk. Xah P0lyglut 09:49, 2003 Dec 31 (UTC)
As I understand it, no. The Shrine contracts out the actual circus part of it. (That all I need, a requirement to sell the tickets AND the peanuts!
You have misunderstood. The Shrine Circus is put on by the local Shriners. Some, but not all of the local Shriners use their own clown unit for the circus. (one who knows)
No, not all the performers in the circus are Shriners. Grye 11:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
This is obviously slanted, and it doesn't give any source.
I was hoping that referring to the Shriners as a Clown society would not be offensive. I put it in. Any objections? Tom Lougheed 02:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This article's vandal-du-jour has tagged a section NPOV. Rather than revert it, though, I thought it might make an interesting discussion. Those who feel there's a POV problem with this section are invited to make edit suggestions. Rklawton 00:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
As per MSJapan's demand on the talk page, I have specified my cleanup tag to an NPOV tag...although, despite his blunt reply to my change, the page still needs cleanup. The article as it is now has a very critical tone, with words put into quotes in an unncessary and mocking way and ouright offensive statements, esp. in the History section. KyleGarvey 02:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
As said the Talk Page of the article on a GOP politician, this article is a promotional page of the Shriner's and not a true wikipedian page : Where is the Criticism Section ? There is none. It's a defaultless organization ? They don't lie ? They don't hide any skeleton in their closet ? What about the Alliance between the Freemasonry of the P-2 Lodge and La Cosa Nostra ? (See "Gladio" article) What about the tentative of the Shriner Douglas MacArthur to genocide the Chinese people with A-bombs http://hnn.us/articles/9245.html
What about the racists-warhawks like Jesse Helsm, Jack Kemp and Strom Thurmond ?
etc., etc.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodall ( talk • contribs)
The Masons and the Shriner's are supposed to be a "FRATERNAL" organizations; where is the fraternity in attempting to genocide the Chinese People ? Why these organizations don't expelled such neo-nazis ? Why the imperialists and warmongers of UK and US fill the Masons and the Shriners if these organizations are so "nice" ? Why do they just accept the rich and powerful ones in her ranks ? Why these tiny sects are so hyper-represented ?
etc., etc.
Rodall
Criticizing the Shriners for the views and actions of members is like criticizing watercolor painting because Hitler painted. Saxophobia 01:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Today's New York Times contained a front page article about inappropriate co-mingling of funds (between money raised for the Hospitals and funds raised for entertainment etc.) as well as other financial problems in the Shrine. Be prepared for lots of POV pushers coming by and wanting to add this negative info. Perhaps an ounce of prevention is in order?... ie the regular editors to this page should add something on the NYT article themselves, to prevent the discussion being controled by POV pushers. Blueboar 13:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
so I'm waiting for an admin to put this in the right place, and then I will fix the redirects. MSJapan 02:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This probably has no place in the main article, so I'm airing my views here. The 2000 decision to admit 3rd Degree Masons directly to the Shrine has brought more (and younger) brothers into the organization, but at the cost of a sharp drop in membership in the rites- particularly the York Rite. There may come a time when the Shrine admits members directly, without the requirement of their being Masons. Saxophobia 01:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, but I wonder about those men who go directly into the Shrine from their third degree- they may end up as fine Shriners but will they know enough about Masonry? Here in Albany NY (a typical masonic jurisdiction) a man may go from Candidate to Master Mason within the space of three months, or at least within one year. If the Shrine fills up with men who have taken the short cut, I think it's in danger of losing its individual character and just becoming a service organization. (I qualify my remarks by stating that I am not a member of the Shrine) Saxophobia 21:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
That was actually proposed recently, that anyone could join the Shrine, the result being that 3° Masons can join Shrine. The problem is that, in the USA, any Masonic group must be composed of 100% Master Masons to be a Masonic group. So, when the Shrine accepts non-Masons, it will no longer be a Masonic Organization. Grye 09:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to become a Noble on November 10th, so perhaps it is time to step back into this topic of discussion. I might agree that "one doesn't have to know a lot about Masonry to join the Shrine" but it certainly doesn't hurt, and non-masonic members might be likely to feel slightly excluded at times. And to PGNormand, I'll reply that Yes, the Shrine IS a service organization, but it is much more than that. Saxophobia 14:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:Shriners.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 20:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Something about the tone there just doesn't sound right, but I don't know quite how to fix it. What do others think? — Rob ( talk) 20:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Reading all this is amusing. As a Mason for 25 years and a Shriner for 12, I have to wonder where people come up with this stuff. I always enjoy reading what people tell me I believe or what I believe in. Has anyone here attended a Masonic or Shrine ceremony to actually know what goes on? Gary, June 13,2006
I think, perhaps, you misunderstood what I was talking about. I have no problem with the article. I was addressing the comments made about Masons and Shriners in this discussion. A "vague, this is funny" seems more than appropriate for what I was addressing. Gary 6-14-06
I have gone through my Shrine initiation and can attest that while there was no clowning during the ceremony, the tone was light- especially in contrast to the great seriousness of other Masonic ceremonies. (I was informed later that the procedings would have been more comic if there had been enough Nobles present to make up an Oriental Band to crash cymbals and blow horns) Saxophobia ( talk) 16:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the two external links posted in that section by User:Documentator20, whose whopping three total edits (within 20 minutes of creating the account) were all bad. First of all, there is no controversy involved; court cases are not by nature controversy. The supposed Jesters one doesn't mention either the Jesters or the Shrine by name, so it is defamatory to state that it is. The hospital CFO case note lays the blame entirely on the individual, and the hospital was the plaintiff, so I fail to see the "controversy" there either - just because someone gets caught stealing money from the place they work for, it doesn't make the place complicit in the crime. MSJapan ( talk) 05:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia page on the Fruit of Islam-the Nation of Islam's paramilitary guard-makes references to the Shriners. Could a member of the Shriners comment on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phreed100 ( talk • contribs) 18:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I think you missed the point. I am not interested in how poorly the article was written. Can someone comment about the supposed connection, if indeed there is one? Has any research been done? This is the kind of forum for this discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phreed100 ( talk • contribs) 20:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC) The Nation of Islam is not connected with the Shriners. The reference of Masonic and Shrine from the nation are taught in their lessons.The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was a Master Mason and he wrote a book called The Secrets of Freemasonry. This book gives the understanding that he had about the knowledge and wisdom of the scriptures. The Shriners are called Muslim Sons. Because of the length of time it took to become a Shriner, being 35-50 yrs. according to those days and times of Muhammads time. The Nation is its own body. Freemasonry and Shrinedom are Fraternities. What you put in them you will get out of them. What is not of the Ancient Landmarks are not right and exact in the realm of this fraternity only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.255.110.162 ( talk) 04:54, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to Shriners per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 06:10, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine →
Shriners International — While AAONMS is the traditional name of the organization, a
Google News search suggests its official title has been "Shriners International" since at least the mid-90s.--
SarekOfVulcan (
talk)
14:26, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
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I recently added this historic PD image to the article. User:MSJapan deleted it, commenting "not indicative of anything, and therefore not really needed.)
I think it's an interesting historic image, showing a Shriner event from 80-some years ago, and a nice addition to our article. Other opinions? Thanks, Pete Tillman ( talk) 19:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
It looks like they are doing a strut called the "Camel Walk". Look it up on YouTube or wherever. It is done at parties by Shriners who go around in a circle to music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDNLbZmLINo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.20.37 ( talk) 14:01, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
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I removed some material that claims that Shriners International was declared clandestine by UGLE and GL of Arkansas. I've tried to find sources for this claim but I cannot.
It appears that the GL of Michigan withdrew recognition from SI in 2011. I'm not sure if that's still in effect, but since I can't find a source to the contrary, I left up a statement noting that the GL of Michigan does not recognize SI. I also removed a section that cautioned Masons against joining the Shriners because it might jeopardize their Blue Lodge standing. While this might be true in Michigan (if the order is still in effect), it sounds like FUD and it's otherwise unencyclopedic. That's a discussion better suited for a Masonic web forum or blog. Cosmic Sans ( talk) 19:37, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Doesn't Prince Hall Freemasonry have it's own version of the Shriners connected to it? I'm going to be honest, I'm not certain if it's considered thw same as the one that is largely populated by mainstream Masons or not. If they do, wouldn't its history be of some relevance for the article? Pepe Oats ( talk) 20:38, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
The article quotes what purports to be the obligation of a Shriner. (I'm personally not a Shriner, so I can't vouch.) The quote appears to come from a book entitled "The Mystic Shrine Illustrated: The Full Illustrated Ritual of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine" by an anonymous author. There is a version of this book available on Amazon attributed to "John Blanchard", but that version appears to be a reprint of an earlier version by an anonymous author.
I cannot find any sources that would indicate that "The Mystic Shrine Illustrated: The Full Illustrated Ritual of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine" is a reliable source. In fact, what little I can find in the way of reviews (such as on Amazon) seem to indicate that it is not accurate and does not match up to the ritual performed by the Shriners.
I wanted to open this up for comment, if anyone is interested. If not, I'll delete the quote in a few days because it does not appear that it comes from a reliable source. Cosmic Sans ( talk) 19:09, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
I'd say remove it unless a more reliable source is found. If the information is accurate, there should be no reason why reliable sources shouldn't be found. While I am not a Shriner, I think it's safe to assume that such a public and well known organization would have some documentation somewhere that we can rely on for things like obligations and ceremonies. Pepe Oats ( talk) 21:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
The Shriner's blood oath and confession of Allah as God is documented in the secret Lodge document, THE MYSTIC SHRINE, AN ILLUSTRATED RITUAL OF THE ANCIENT ARABIC ORDER NOBLES OF THE SHRINE, 1975 Edition, (pages 20-22). Remember that Allah is not just another name for God. Allah is the name of another god. In usual occult fashion, the initiate swears that he will be inseparably obligated to this "most powerful and binding oath", in advance, and that he may NEVER retract or depart from it.
"The Fez itself, is an example of this double meaning behind most of Freemasonry's facade. Worn and even carried to the grave with pompous dignity, the history of the Fez is barbaric and anti-Christian. In the early 8th century, Muslim hordes overran the Moroccan city of Fez, shouting, "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." There, they butchered approximately 50,000 Christians. These men, women and children were slain because of their faith in Christ, all in the name of Allah, the same demon god to whom every Shriner must bow, with hands tied behind his back, in worship, proclaiming him the god of his fathers in the Shrine initiation , at the Altar of Obligation."
http://www.saintsalive.com/freemasonry/fmsatansdoor.html http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/masonry_lucifers_network.html
We see perhaps the roots of this factual occurence here in an old text entitled: "The Works of Aphra Behn, Volume II" Behn, Aphra, 1640-1689
"King _Philip_ made a War in _Barbary_, Won _Tunis_, conquer'd Fez, and hand to hand Slew great _Abdela_, King of _Fez_, and Father To this _Barbarian_ Prince. _Abd_. … you fit me for Despairs, That may instruct me how to follow him in Death: Yet as I'm Prince o'th' Blood, and Cardinal too, You cannot be my Judges. _Abd_. You shall be try'd, Sir, as becomes your Quality. _Osmin_, … 'tis my Moor,--give him admittance strait, The Thought comes o'er me like a gentle Gale, Raising my Blood into a thousand Curls"
The jist being that the Moors sought and achieved revenge against King Philip for the sacking of Fez.
Of the their little known sect, it is written "The Fatimids (8th century) propped up their power by gathering the Ishmaelites into a Grand Lodge of complex initiations and hierarchical degrees; the members were used for political espionage and intrigue; the forms of the order were transmitted to Jerusalem and Europe and strongly influenced the organization, garb and ritual of the Templars, the Illuminati,and other secret fraternities of the western world. The American (Masonic) businessman is periodically a zealous Mohammedan, proud of his secret doctrine, his Moroccan fez and his Moslem shrine." (The Age of Faith, Will Durant p 289).
The Age of Faith: A History of Medieval Civilization -Christian, Islamic, and Judaic - from Constantine to Dante A.D. 325-1300 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.155.4 ( talk • contribs)
In response to your remarks, stating whether or not Allah is or is not God is completely moot since the quote I mentioned had no intention of positing this as fact. It merely mentions that the Allah being referred to is in fact a single and separate ancient God as there were many in the polytheistic religions at that time.
As far as POV'ing lets take a quick look at your response and see how many things we can pull out that one might argue are "POV":
POV: "stating that Allah is (or isn't) God is POV"
POV: "The reference to the secret oath needs better documentation " (although I tend to agree and have obliged with the request below)
POV: "the possibility that a Shriner intends to serve anything other than the Creator of the Universe seems rather remote given the Shriners' dedication to fulfilling several Biblical commands regarding children, the sick, and charity" Hitler gave out candies to children from time to time, why would people question that he was anything other than part of a vast and benevolant childrens organization?
POV: "Lastly, one should remember that sometimes a silly hat is just a silly hat." That's an absurd insinuation, when discussing an organization as heavily steeped in symbolism as The Shriners are and Freemasons in general.
The Age of Faith (The Story of Civilization, Volume 4) (Story of Civilization) ISBN: 0671012002 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671012002/104-4296238-8175903?v=glance&n=283155
The Works of Aphra Behn, Volume II by Aphra Behn EText-No. 8885 http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8885
THE MYSTIC SHRINE ILLUSTRATED By: John Blanchard eBook 126317 http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/126317-ebook.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.155.4 ( talk • contribs)
Wow! That's exactly what everyone said would happen if I tried to breathe some truth into the one of many Wikipedia disinformation campaigns! Bravo! You are obviously towing the disinformationist line very well and I wouldn't hesitate to guess that you should expect to make it to "the next level" in no time flat. Let's very quickly examine what we have: "You're arguments and citations are so absurd they speak themselves" I'd argue that I in fact made no arguments, I simply pointed out your glaringly oversimplistic POV and weak command of the English language.
"It's not that I don't wish to engage in an intelligent debate" Double negatives are intelligent? Since when?
"it's just that I find myself waiting for you to begin" Really!? I suppose you have already read all the material I've referenced and that is why you have such deep well-thought-out and intelligent responses to the issues I've attempted to bring to public attention.
Before I waste yet another minute of my precious and limited time responding to nonstatements/nonarguments here with the Wiki-weaky people I'll simply wish you all the best! =)
Take care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.155.4 ( talk • contribs)
Arabic-speaking Christians (about 5% of the Arab World) also use the word "Allah" for God. Bostoner ( talk) 03:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Also, "Allah" and "Yaweh" are the same word; both trace their origins to the now-extinct ancestral Semitic language that eventually gave rise to both Arabic and Hebrew. Laodah 04:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)