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Lots of problems with this article. Needs sourcing from a mainstream book in Bulgarian phonetics.
1.The article calls the variable /ja/ a diphthong, but it is not a diphthong in most cases, since it only makes the preceding consonant palatalised (also, Boyadzhiev's 1998 grammar, vol.1, phonetics, refuses to speak of "diphthongs" in Bulgarian at all).
2.The statement that the Shops pronounce variable /ja/ as /ə/ in sedja (седя) is wrong too, because this is not a variable /ja/ at all - it is originally a nasal ( big yus), and the use of <ja> in modern standard written Bulgarian in its place was just an orthographic decision (should have been a ьъ or something, etymologically). It is not pronounced /ja/ in standard Bulgarian either - it's /jə/ or /jə/, as it should be from an etymological point of view. Compare mo~zh > məzh (мъж). The difference is that the Shops omit the palatalisation.
3. The bit about /l/ seems like nonsense, too. AFAIK, the sound shouldn't be labialised at all; rather, it may be replaced with a labial /w/ (perhaps somewhat velarised) "before back vowels, consonants and in the end of the word". This has been reported to occur in the speech of young people (see main article about Bulgarian language, where this is attributed to a phonetics book by V.Zhobov), but it is hardly a feature of all standard Bulgarian as reported here; and I have never heard of it being a feature of Shop speech (in fact, to the extent that I have heard it, I'd say that this is not the case, at least not in authentic middle-age Shops; I have my own speculations as to where "wawe"-like pronunciations are to be placed in terms of dialect geography and sociolinguistics, but that is another story).
I'm not making any changes now, because I don't have a book about Bulgarian dialects at home. I would need to go to the library to source my changes and perhaps improve the article in other respects, too. For the time being, I am just placing a factual accuracy tag. -- 194.145.161.227 21:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a quotation of the article introduction section: "This article is about the Shopi in Bulgaria. The name Šopi is also used for ethnographic groups in Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia, which are not treated here." - so my question is: if these etnographic groups in Serbia and Macedonia are not covered by this article, by which article are they covered and where can I (or any other user) write about them? Should we then consider renaming this article to "Shopi in Bulgaria" and creating another one named "Shopi" where we can write about entire Shopi population in all 3 countries? PANONIAN 09:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree this article to be enlarged, encompassing all Shopi. Jingby ( talk) 12:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Do they share a common origin, customs, dialectal traits, etc.? Yes, untill the early 20th Century they were described as Bulgarians, but later accepted different ethnic affiliations. What is the problem? Jingby ( talk) 12:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
how can a shop be a serbian or bulgarian? it is newer cathegory. it's like calling a mayan, cheyeni, toltec etc. indians. or gheg, tosk, gorani, shkreti etc. albanians. it's a newer cathegory that didn't exist before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.225.8 ( talk) 16:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
the main point is to try and rewrite the history of the modern nation-state of Macedonia by Serbian nationalists, since they basically invaded and violently occupied the land in the second balkan war until treaties were drawn and borders altered. Shopi are part of that region's history, hence the politicization. the balkans are complicated, but not that complicated, nationalists of all flags try and claim everything and everyone as their own and use the "complicated" history excuse as a smoke screen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.226.63.230 ( talk) 17:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
That is just like saying "how can a šop be macedonian?" there are šopi in all of the three countries if you didn't know. The ones in Serbia speak a serbian dialect, the ones in Macedonia speak a macedonian dialect and the ones in Bulgaria a bulgarian one, šopi arent exclusive only to Macedonia. Indirect article ( talk) 14:49, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I reverted the removal of the large portion of the text with referenced assertions per Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Such important changes should be discussed per Wikipedia:Editing policy.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Antidiscriminator instead pushing here Serbian POV and the opinion of extreem controvercial Serbian scienist as Jovan Cvijić according to whom half Bulgaria was Sebian-populated I offer to you my former short NPOV:
The noting of Shopi as a "group" began in the 19th-century migrational waves of poor workers from the so-called Shopluk, poor areas (villages) beyond Sofia. [1] Some scientists describe the Shopi as a distinct ethnographic group. [2] [3] The Shopi are also sometimes classified as part of the Torlaks population and vice versa. In the 19th century, there was no exact border between Torlak and Shopi settlements. Therefore, both Serbs and Bulgarians considered local Slavs as part of their own people, while the local population was also divided between sympathy for Bulgarians and Serbs. Some authors from the epoch maintain that the inhabitants of the Shopi area had begun to develop predominantly Bulgarian national consciousness. [4] [5] With Ottoman influence ever weakening, the increase of nationalist sentiment in the Balkans in late 19th and early 20th century, and the redrawing of national boundaries after the Treaty of Berlin (1878), the Balkan wars, World War I and World War II the borders in the Shopi-speaking region changed several times between Serbia and Bulgaria, and later Republic of Macedonia. Jingiby ( talk) 09:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I do not understand you. We need here NPOV, nor Bulgarian, neither Serbian POV. At the moment the section is mostly nAtionalistic POV. Jingiby ( talk) 14:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Now I am waiting about NPOV version of the section, please. Jingiby ( talk) 15:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi Antidiskriminator, how about the time for preparation? Jingiby ( talk) 14:16, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The article has been boldly significantly changed. The map was removed as unsourced although there is a source indicated (Kosta V. Kostić, Prilog etnoistoriji Torlaka, 2 izdanje, Novi Sad, 1995.), Shopi are compared to "other Bulgarians", a government website is added as source while assertion supported by publication of American Geographical Society of New York was removed under "no author provided-no reliability" excuse. I will restore the stable version of the article per BRD.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Shoppe as mentioned here: /info/en/?search=Bistritsa_Babi
The British William Macmichael spent the years from 1811 to 1817 visiting Bulgaria, Greece, Palestine, Romania, Russia and Turkey after gaining a Radcliffe traveling fellowship. In his book „Journey from Moscow to Constantinople, in years 1817,1818.“, William Macmichael describes the inhabitants and the language of Moesia, territory that includes much of today's Serbia(without Vojvodina), Northern Bulgaria, Western Bulgaria and the northern parts of the modern Republic of Macedonia:
"The native Christian inhabitans of this country antiently known by the name of Moesia, but now divided into two districts, denominated Servia and Bulgaria, are collectively called Serbiani, and speak the Slavonian language; for the original Bulgarians were a Tartar people, who came in the fifth century from the banks of the Volga, and successively adopted Slavonian dialect of their new countrymen the Servians, retaining only a few words of their former language." [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srpski Patriotizam ( talk • contribs) 19:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
The Bulgarians' opinion about the Shopi cited by Prof. Carlile Aylmer Macartney has been repeatedly deleted. He was married in 1923 Nedelya Mamacheva, who was the daughter of a Bulgarian army colonel and lived for a short time in Bulgaria. His opinion has been cited by Prof. David Marshall Lang in his book The Bulgarians: from pagan times to the Ottoman conquest. This book is a secondary source published several times, including by Academic publishing houses as Westview Press. Lang was a Professor at the University of London, specialized in Bulgarian history. There is a positive Review of that book by George P. Majeska on the American Historical Review, Volume 84, Issue 1, 1 February 1979, Pages 140–141, https://doi.org/10.1086/ahr/84.1.140-a. Why is that info constantly deleted? Jingiby ( talk) 09:40, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
КЪМ ВЪПРОСА ЗА НАЗВАНИЯТА НА ТРИ БЪЛГАРСКИ ЕТНОГРАФСКИ ГРУПИ: РУПЦИ, ШОПИ, ХЪРЦОИ PROCEEDINGS OF UNIVERSITY OF RUSE - 2022, volume 61, book 11.1. https://www.academia.edu/115586866/C_163_PAPER_%D0%9A%D0%AA%D0%9C_%D0%92%D0%AA%D0%9F%D0%A0%D0%9E%D0%A1%D0%90_%D0%97%D0%90_%D0%9D%D0%90%D0%97%D0%92%D0%90%D0%9D%D0%98%D0%AF%D0%A2%D0%90_%D0%9D%D0%90_%D0%A2%D0%A0%D0%98_%D0%91%D0%AA%D0%9B%D0%93%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%98_%D0%95%D0%A2%D0%9D%D0%9E%D0%93%D0%A0%D0%90%D0%A4%D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%98_%D0%93%D0%A0%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%98_%D0%A0%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%A6%D0%98_%D0%A8%D0%9E%D0%9F%D0%98_%D0%A5%D0%AA%D0%A0%D0%A6%D0%9E%D0%98 Drenowe ( talk) 11:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Shopi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Lots of problems with this article. Needs sourcing from a mainstream book in Bulgarian phonetics.
1.The article calls the variable /ja/ a diphthong, but it is not a diphthong in most cases, since it only makes the preceding consonant palatalised (also, Boyadzhiev's 1998 grammar, vol.1, phonetics, refuses to speak of "diphthongs" in Bulgarian at all).
2.The statement that the Shops pronounce variable /ja/ as /ə/ in sedja (седя) is wrong too, because this is not a variable /ja/ at all - it is originally a nasal ( big yus), and the use of <ja> in modern standard written Bulgarian in its place was just an orthographic decision (should have been a ьъ or something, etymologically). It is not pronounced /ja/ in standard Bulgarian either - it's /jə/ or /jə/, as it should be from an etymological point of view. Compare mo~zh > məzh (мъж). The difference is that the Shops omit the palatalisation.
3. The bit about /l/ seems like nonsense, too. AFAIK, the sound shouldn't be labialised at all; rather, it may be replaced with a labial /w/ (perhaps somewhat velarised) "before back vowels, consonants and in the end of the word". This has been reported to occur in the speech of young people (see main article about Bulgarian language, where this is attributed to a phonetics book by V.Zhobov), but it is hardly a feature of all standard Bulgarian as reported here; and I have never heard of it being a feature of Shop speech (in fact, to the extent that I have heard it, I'd say that this is not the case, at least not in authentic middle-age Shops; I have my own speculations as to where "wawe"-like pronunciations are to be placed in terms of dialect geography and sociolinguistics, but that is another story).
I'm not making any changes now, because I don't have a book about Bulgarian dialects at home. I would need to go to the library to source my changes and perhaps improve the article in other respects, too. For the time being, I am just placing a factual accuracy tag. -- 194.145.161.227 21:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
This is a quotation of the article introduction section: "This article is about the Shopi in Bulgaria. The name Šopi is also used for ethnographic groups in Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia, which are not treated here." - so my question is: if these etnographic groups in Serbia and Macedonia are not covered by this article, by which article are they covered and where can I (or any other user) write about them? Should we then consider renaming this article to "Shopi in Bulgaria" and creating another one named "Shopi" where we can write about entire Shopi population in all 3 countries? PANONIAN 09:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree this article to be enlarged, encompassing all Shopi. Jingby ( talk) 12:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Do they share a common origin, customs, dialectal traits, etc.? Yes, untill the early 20th Century they were described as Bulgarians, but later accepted different ethnic affiliations. What is the problem? Jingby ( talk) 12:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
how can a shop be a serbian or bulgarian? it is newer cathegory. it's like calling a mayan, cheyeni, toltec etc. indians. or gheg, tosk, gorani, shkreti etc. albanians. it's a newer cathegory that didn't exist before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.225.8 ( talk) 16:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
the main point is to try and rewrite the history of the modern nation-state of Macedonia by Serbian nationalists, since they basically invaded and violently occupied the land in the second balkan war until treaties were drawn and borders altered. Shopi are part of that region's history, hence the politicization. the balkans are complicated, but not that complicated, nationalists of all flags try and claim everything and everyone as their own and use the "complicated" history excuse as a smoke screen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.226.63.230 ( talk) 17:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
That is just like saying "how can a šop be macedonian?" there are šopi in all of the three countries if you didn't know. The ones in Serbia speak a serbian dialect, the ones in Macedonia speak a macedonian dialect and the ones in Bulgaria a bulgarian one, šopi arent exclusive only to Macedonia. Indirect article ( talk) 14:49, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
I reverted the removal of the large portion of the text with referenced assertions per Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Such important changes should be discussed per Wikipedia:Editing policy.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 22:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Antidiscriminator instead pushing here Serbian POV and the opinion of extreem controvercial Serbian scienist as Jovan Cvijić according to whom half Bulgaria was Sebian-populated I offer to you my former short NPOV:
The noting of Shopi as a "group" began in the 19th-century migrational waves of poor workers from the so-called Shopluk, poor areas (villages) beyond Sofia. [1] Some scientists describe the Shopi as a distinct ethnographic group. [2] [3] The Shopi are also sometimes classified as part of the Torlaks population and vice versa. In the 19th century, there was no exact border between Torlak and Shopi settlements. Therefore, both Serbs and Bulgarians considered local Slavs as part of their own people, while the local population was also divided between sympathy for Bulgarians and Serbs. Some authors from the epoch maintain that the inhabitants of the Shopi area had begun to develop predominantly Bulgarian national consciousness. [4] [5] With Ottoman influence ever weakening, the increase of nationalist sentiment in the Balkans in late 19th and early 20th century, and the redrawing of national boundaries after the Treaty of Berlin (1878), the Balkan wars, World War I and World War II the borders in the Shopi-speaking region changed several times between Serbia and Bulgaria, and later Republic of Macedonia. Jingiby ( talk) 09:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I do not understand you. We need here NPOV, nor Bulgarian, neither Serbian POV. At the moment the section is mostly nAtionalistic POV. Jingiby ( talk) 14:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Now I am waiting about NPOV version of the section, please. Jingiby ( talk) 15:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi Antidiskriminator, how about the time for preparation? Jingiby ( talk) 14:16, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The article has been boldly significantly changed. The map was removed as unsourced although there is a source indicated (Kosta V. Kostić, Prilog etnoistoriji Torlaka, 2 izdanje, Novi Sad, 1995.), Shopi are compared to "other Bulgarians", a government website is added as source while assertion supported by publication of American Geographical Society of New York was removed under "no author provided-no reliability" excuse. I will restore the stable version of the article per BRD.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Shoppe as mentioned here: /info/en/?search=Bistritsa_Babi
The British William Macmichael spent the years from 1811 to 1817 visiting Bulgaria, Greece, Palestine, Romania, Russia and Turkey after gaining a Radcliffe traveling fellowship. In his book „Journey from Moscow to Constantinople, in years 1817,1818.“, William Macmichael describes the inhabitants and the language of Moesia, territory that includes much of today's Serbia(without Vojvodina), Northern Bulgaria, Western Bulgaria and the northern parts of the modern Republic of Macedonia:
"The native Christian inhabitans of this country antiently known by the name of Moesia, but now divided into two districts, denominated Servia and Bulgaria, are collectively called Serbiani, and speak the Slavonian language; for the original Bulgarians were a Tartar people, who came in the fifth century from the banks of the Volga, and successively adopted Slavonian dialect of their new countrymen the Servians, retaining only a few words of their former language." [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Srpski Patriotizam ( talk • contribs) 19:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
The Bulgarians' opinion about the Shopi cited by Prof. Carlile Aylmer Macartney has been repeatedly deleted. He was married in 1923 Nedelya Mamacheva, who was the daughter of a Bulgarian army colonel and lived for a short time in Bulgaria. His opinion has been cited by Prof. David Marshall Lang in his book The Bulgarians: from pagan times to the Ottoman conquest. This book is a secondary source published several times, including by Academic publishing houses as Westview Press. Lang was a Professor at the University of London, specialized in Bulgarian history. There is a positive Review of that book by George P. Majeska on the American Historical Review, Volume 84, Issue 1, 1 February 1979, Pages 140–141, https://doi.org/10.1086/ahr/84.1.140-a. Why is that info constantly deleted? Jingiby ( talk) 09:40, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
КЪМ ВЪПРОСА ЗА НАЗВАНИЯТА НА ТРИ БЪЛГАРСКИ ЕТНОГРАФСКИ ГРУПИ: РУПЦИ, ШОПИ, ХЪРЦОИ PROCEEDINGS OF UNIVERSITY OF RUSE - 2022, volume 61, book 11.1. https://www.academia.edu/115586866/C_163_PAPER_%D0%9A%D0%AA%D0%9C_%D0%92%D0%AA%D0%9F%D0%A0%D0%9E%D0%A1%D0%90_%D0%97%D0%90_%D0%9D%D0%90%D0%97%D0%92%D0%90%D0%9D%D0%98%D0%AF%D0%A2%D0%90_%D0%9D%D0%90_%D0%A2%D0%A0%D0%98_%D0%91%D0%AA%D0%9B%D0%93%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%98_%D0%95%D0%A2%D0%9D%D0%9E%D0%93%D0%A0%D0%90%D0%A4%D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%98_%D0%93%D0%A0%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%98_%D0%A0%D0%A3%D0%9F%D0%A6%D0%98_%D0%A8%D0%9E%D0%9F%D0%98_%D0%A5%D0%AA%D0%A0%D0%A6%D0%9E%D0%98 Drenowe ( talk) 11:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)