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Parts read like a poor translation by a non-native speaker, there are references to insufficiently explained people and events, the order is confused, there are inconsistencies even in the spelling of his pen name ... a travesty of an 'encyclopaedia' article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.153.6 ( talk) 16:43, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
User Bandurist keeps erasing the changes made and putting in a non-neutral POV. The attempt is clearly to protray Schwartzbard as an agent of the soviets, without proper evidence or citations. Everyone associated with Schwartzbard is labeled as communist. I added the fact that this is what the Petlura camp tried to do in the trial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.77.4.43 ( talk) 22:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
However, just going through an article and deleting all the parts you don't like and adding materials that have little relationship to the original article is also not very correct ettiquette.
Thanks. Yes I know Proskuriv being Khmelnytsk. I gave some recitals throughout that whole area 15 years ago. The area is quite interesting to me - particularly in the way the cultures of the local population in the neighbouring Ternopil differ from that of the population of Khmelnytsk - only because the administration was different.
So our job now is to discuss the following:
1) Add and check the supportive citations for the `Soviet agent theory' 2) Check for the location in Paris where the assassination took place. 3) Discuss the irrelevancy of his brother being deported. 4) Inflammatory nature of his 'illegally' crossing the border to Rumania. 5) Schwartzbard's role in organizing Jewish self-defence in 1905.
Lets see if we can work together to overcome these problems in a mutual manner. Bandurist 18:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Missing details about Schwartzbard:
His childhood: he was the first child to survive after three older brothers dying. His mother died when he was young. Afterwards he was an apprentice to a watchmaker.
The 1905 Pogroms: He participated in the the Jewish self defence in Balta. He was wanted by the authorities and moved to a border town, was arrested released and then escaped to Austro-Hungary.
1917-1919: Schawtzbard participation in organizing orphanages and in Jewish self defence groups (again Balta).
The assassination: Petlura being in Paris was no secret. A Ukrainian exiles newspaper wrote about it and had his picture with Pilsudsky.
The trial: much information is missing about the witnesses, both for the prosecution and the defence and their cross examination. Without it, it is hard to figure out how the jury acquitted him.
The Soviet agent theory: all aspects should be covered together. Irrelevant information should be minimized (e.g. his brother).
Petlura's role in the pogroms: this is best discussed in Petlura's entry.
References: an important missing reference is the Book "Pogromchik: The assassination of Simon Petlura", by Saul S. Friedman.
Another pointer should be that Schwartzbard papers are archived in YIVO Institute for Jewish Research in New York. http://www.yivoinstitute.org
Without these changes the entry looks like a piece of Ukrainian Nationalistic propaganda.
I added some information about Schwartzbard's archive and ways in which he was commemorated. What is the real source for this : "He participated in a movie living for a time in Hollywood with his family where he played himself in a film made about the Assassination [1]."
There is no trace of a movie about Schwarzbard in the imbd. Also what is the source that he moved to the US? all the sources have him leaving in France before going on the South African expedition.
I removed this until clarification.
Mashkin 00:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Mashkin 02:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
References
Wrong quotes has been used which allegedly were used by Schwartzbard during the assassination. The official transcripts of the trial states:
"Here's my chance, I thought. 'Are you Petlura?' I asked him. He did not answer, simply lifting his heavy cane. I knew it was he.
"I shot him five times. I shot him like a soldier who knows how to shoot, and I shot straight so as not to hit any innocent passerby. At the fifth shot he fell. He didn't say a word. There were only cries and convulsions.
"When I saw him fall I knew he had received five bullets. Then I emptied my revolver. The crowd had scattered. A policeman came up quietly and said: 'Is that enough?' I answered: 'Yes.' He said: 'Then give me your revolver.' I gave him the revolver, saying: 'I have killed a great assassin.'
"When the policeman told me Petlura was dead I could not hide my Joy. I leaped forward and threw my arms about his neck."
"Then you admit premeditation?" asked the judge.
"Yes, yes!" replied M. Schwartzbard, his face lit with fanatical exultation.
With the fall of the Soviet system the archives were open for a period of time, however, since then the Russian archives have been closed. The Ukrainian ones are still open but they fdo not containe everything the Soviet Union was doing. The current reseach in Ukraine by scholars studying the previous KGB archives is to accept the Soviet agent theory, however, Ukrainian scholars have not found the document that is the proverbial "smoking gun". Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't see Yulia's signature under that piece but the signature of Museum director, anyhow I found a source where Yuschenko says Schwartzbard is a SU-agent and altered the article as such. I think Prime Minister Tymoshenko has not taken part in any discussion about Schwartzbard so I think it is a bit idiot to say that Yschenko words are (always) the words of the government. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 15:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
We should let the User IP edits stand regarding this issue, as they seem more accurate. Ostap 19:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
IP has rue Racine The Ukrainian government portal has rue Racine The edits currently are not inaccurate however IP is more specific, but does the street matter? Does rue Racine have any meaning to anyone in the Anglo speaking world? I agree that IP's edits here are more specific. Bandurist 20:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I feel that this information is relevant for a number of reasons. It sheds light on the man and his associations. If his brother was deported from France for having Communist leanings and being an active communist it suggests certain conclussions. a) That his brother may also be a Communist b) That his brother may hide his Communist sympathies in order to not be deported as well. What do you think? Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
i am a different person but ban, i think you are obsessed with anticommunism, what if he sympathised with a socialist revolution? it is pretty obvious isn't that? if only from his assasinating a nationalist character. i think your communist-witchhunt has no relevance to the 1917 circumstance and as such has no historical relevance for the article.(even trotzkism arrived after 1917, his brother needn't even have been a communist but may have been just partial to the reds over the whites) the more interesting notion that his resistance against progroms , antisemitism and nationalism got him into the red army as much as the foreignlegion during ww1 is also not made. the question rises, does your awkward relation with communism imply you support the progroms? i wouldn't be surprised. keep in mind that for sympathy with "the" revolution you need not be a communist, it suffices not to want others to be a slave. the whole spectrum of socialists sympathised with that revolution (especially in 1917). ofcourse a communist might sympathise with the elimination of a massmurderer. (that was probably at least part of his motivation to join the red army) 80.57.43.99 ( talk) 11:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The fact that he crossed the border illegally (i.e. without passport or visa has paricular connotations. a) He had no money to buy the required documents b) He was escaping repurcussions in Russia c) He (as an Anarchist had no respect for the government and did what ever he pleased.
If we look at b) What was he escaping from in Russia. 1905 was a difficult year. A year of Revolution. Anybody involved in the massive srtikes and revolts initially got the death sentence. Such writers as Hnat Khotkevych didn't participate in any strikes but as a secretary of the railwayworker's Union he was warned to leave the country which he did fleeing to Lviv in Austria-Hungary. 1905 was also the year that the Blacvk hundreds were particularly active and the call by some Russian circles "Beat the jews and Save Russia" went out and a series of massive pogroms were launched. Could this be a reason fr him crossing the border? Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Could this be a reason for him fleeing Russia in 1905? Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC) In the link to Shwartzbard's bio there is no mention of his association with the Jewish self-defence in 1905. Maybe this is the reason he fled Russia? But I ask myself, if this was so important why was it not mentioned in the bio Bandurist 03:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The Anarchist Encyclopedia herehas many factual eras. Small but neumerous starting from it stating that Izmail is in Moldova when it in fact is in Ukraine. It mentions his arrests and deportations and mentions him joining the Bolshevik army in Odessa in 1917 and that he was active in Communist groups. It also mentions the lobbying group of publicly recognized personalities, such as Henri Bergson, Romain Rolland, Albert Einstein, & Alexander Kerensky volunteered to testify on Shalom Schwarzbard's behalf. It also states that "Torres had joined the French Communist Party.
The Institute for Jewish research here is more scholarly and to me sounds more credible and less POV. Here it gives much more information and it seems to be more accurate. Here it states "He travelled through Lemberg (Lwów, now L'viv, Ukraine), Budapest, Vienna, Italy," The Lviv (ah notice L'viv) connection has been missed totally in the article In 1917 Shalom Schwarzbard returned to Russia and joined the Red Guard in Odessa.
This bit is well crafted in a NPOV manner: During the civil war of 1918-1920, while Ukrainian forces defended national independence of the Ukraine against the Bolshevik armies and Polish territorial claims, chaos and lawlessness were rampant in the Ukraine. The pogroms that took place in the Ukraine during this time shocked the public with their brutality and and the number of their victims. According to conservative estimates 50,000 Jews fell victim to these massacres.
Also Victims and their relatives, as well as public figures concerned with this wave of violence held Symon Petliura responsible for the atrocities committed in the Ukraine. A Ukrainian nationalist and journalist, Symon Petliura, became Minister of War (holovny ataman) in the Ukrainian Central Rada, and later President of the Directorate. Although the central Ukrainian government functioned under conditions of civil war, in the eyes of the victims of the pogroms and their relatives, Symon Petliura did little to stop the pogroms. As the commander of the Ukrainian army, he was therefore perceived as the ultimate perpetrator of the atrocities.
It sounds very similar to the way some Ukrainian articles are crafted about various sensitive areas.
Once again well crafted: Both Shalom Schwarzbard and Symon Petliura immediately became public symbols. While Shalom Schwarzbard was called a Jewish national hero and appeals were made to Jews all over the world to contribute financially to his defense, Symon Petliura suddenly became a martyr of the Ukrainian émigré community and his death unified the hitherto divided Ukrainian exiles. Many Ukrainian emigrés believed that Shalom Schwarzbard was a Bolshevik agent who carried out the assassination under orders from Moscow.
In the archives thuis is interesting There are relatively few materials directly related to Shalom Schwarzbard's trial or his act. Among the exceptions are letters written by Elie Dobkovsky who participated in the trial with Shalom Schwarzbard and in his long letter tried to explain why he witnessed against him, and Shalom Schwarzbard's letters to J.M. Zalkind written from the prison.
Why would she witness against Shwartzbard and then write a ;letter of exlanation to him? Ukrainian weekly http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1996/209613.shtml from 1926 states: According to historian Michael Palij, a GPU (Soviet secret police) agent named Mikhail Volodin came to Paris that August. Allegedly, they met and Schwartzbard began stalking the UNR leader. Following his former ally Gen. Pilsudski's seizure of power in Poland on May 12, 1926, Petliura was warned by fellow members of the UNR government-in-exile and senior Ukrainian military officers that his life was in danger, but he ignored their advice and did not go into hiding.
According to a report in Le Figaro, on May 25, 1926, Schwartzbard was called away by a telephone call from lunch with his wife, returned and left hurriedly soon after.
At around 2 p.m., Petliura lunched alone at the restaurant Bouillon Chartier on rue Racine. At 2:15, as he was walking home, he stopped to look in a shop window at the corner of Boulevard St.-Michel.
A man approached, and called out in Ukrainian, "Are you Mr. Petliura?" Petliura turned to see Schwartzbard advancing on him. "Defend yourself, you bandit," the assassin shouted (as he recounted in his deposition to a judge), and as Petliura raised the cane in his right hand, Schwartzbard fired into him three times, exclaiming "This, for the pogroms; this for the massacres, this for the victims."
According to an eyewitness, the victim sank to the ground saying "Enough, enough, my God." The gunman fired four more shots into the prone man. Petliura was taken to the Hopital de la Charité on rue Jacob, where he died about 20 minutes later, at the age of 47.
After reading In 1917, while travelling to Odessa to join the Red Guards, Schwartzbard was reportedly told of Petlura's responsibility for pogroms in the Ukraine, though it is debated that Petlura was ever involved in them at all. I ask 1917 ? In 1917 Petlura had not had any involvement with the Ukrainian army until 1918 and he was not the head of the government until February 1920. Can anyone give a source for this statement? To me the statement sound false, at least the date is inaccurate Bandurist 12:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
This part also seems to me difficult to understand "After a trial lasting eight days the jury acquitted Schwarztbard and ordered the family of Petlura to compensate him for his expenses. [1]" Why would the Petlura family be ordered to pay compensation to the murdered after a murder trial? Bandurist 01:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Mashkin 01:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I edited the opening of the article. I don't know how the Publicit was born (Bandurist added it). Did you mean publisher? Anyway, this opening should only be for things that he is really well known, otherwise we will write all the article in the opening paragraph. Poet should stay, since someone may want to check who is the writer of a poem and lookup the name. The fact that he was Jewish and an anarchist should stay as well, since they were defining characteristics of his life. And of course to mention the reason he is known - the Petlura assassination. But there is no need for writing that he was a "twice convicted bank robber", nor that he was a decorated veteran or an encyclopedia salesman and fund raiser. An issue to consider is whether to mention the fact that he was acquitted of the assassination. Perhaps mention it with the trial. Maye something i.e. "known primarily for the assassination of the Ukrainian politician Symon Petliura and the sensational trial that resulted."
Mashkin 01:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
To (ab) User:Mona23653, you have inserted 'convicted bank robber' again, with no explanation, in spite of my above reasoning. As I suggested elsewhere, why don't you start the Mona Encyclopedia of Ukrainian History and leave Wikipedia alone. Mashkin 15:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Mona23653 03:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)mona23653
What point of view is there? You're the one here, who denies the facts. Is the fact that he was a repeat offender, who twice escaped from jail a point of view? He commits one crime, is sentnced, and escapes, then goes to Hugary, robs a bank, gets caught, and jailtime, and escapes, then he goes to Paris, and kills a person. He was a dangerous repeat-offener, and a criminal. I don't understand how you could classify that that's a POV. Mona23653 13:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)mona23653
He had a good lawyer just like OJ Bandurist ( talk) 18:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
You can't really say that he did nothing to curb the occurrence of Pogroms in Ukraine, because he did, as eveidenced by the numerous announceents and leaflets that were published at the time. Whether he had to power to totally stop them in the 11 months that he was head of the government while on Ukrainian territory is doubtful. considering the fact tht the regon was in a state of civil war with Denikin, The Reds, the Poles and the inteventionists. Yes P{etliura was head of the government from January till December of 1919 after Vynnychenlko's departure, but there is no eveidence of him ordering any Pogroms nor of him killing anyone. Schwartzbard's record hwever is not blemish free. He did kill and he is and will probably remain a controvercial figure. Bandurist ( talk) 17:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Peppering forums with meaningless comments that based on false legends and only will lead the discussion nowhere. You know nothing whether Petliura conducted any actions or not to prevent pogroms, yet have a nerve to judge his ability as a politician. The same way we all should convict now Stalin or Nicholas II of Russia. Wasn't Nikolai II who ruled the country when all the pogroms has started?
References
Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 02:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
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Parts read like a poor translation by a non-native speaker, there are references to insufficiently explained people and events, the order is confused, there are inconsistencies even in the spelling of his pen name ... a travesty of an 'encyclopaedia' article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.153.6 ( talk) 16:43, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
User Bandurist keeps erasing the changes made and putting in a non-neutral POV. The attempt is clearly to protray Schwartzbard as an agent of the soviets, without proper evidence or citations. Everyone associated with Schwartzbard is labeled as communist. I added the fact that this is what the Petlura camp tried to do in the trial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.77.4.43 ( talk) 22:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
However, just going through an article and deleting all the parts you don't like and adding materials that have little relationship to the original article is also not very correct ettiquette.
Thanks. Yes I know Proskuriv being Khmelnytsk. I gave some recitals throughout that whole area 15 years ago. The area is quite interesting to me - particularly in the way the cultures of the local population in the neighbouring Ternopil differ from that of the population of Khmelnytsk - only because the administration was different.
So our job now is to discuss the following:
1) Add and check the supportive citations for the `Soviet agent theory' 2) Check for the location in Paris where the assassination took place. 3) Discuss the irrelevancy of his brother being deported. 4) Inflammatory nature of his 'illegally' crossing the border to Rumania. 5) Schwartzbard's role in organizing Jewish self-defence in 1905.
Lets see if we can work together to overcome these problems in a mutual manner. Bandurist 18:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Missing details about Schwartzbard:
His childhood: he was the first child to survive after three older brothers dying. His mother died when he was young. Afterwards he was an apprentice to a watchmaker.
The 1905 Pogroms: He participated in the the Jewish self defence in Balta. He was wanted by the authorities and moved to a border town, was arrested released and then escaped to Austro-Hungary.
1917-1919: Schawtzbard participation in organizing orphanages and in Jewish self defence groups (again Balta).
The assassination: Petlura being in Paris was no secret. A Ukrainian exiles newspaper wrote about it and had his picture with Pilsudsky.
The trial: much information is missing about the witnesses, both for the prosecution and the defence and their cross examination. Without it, it is hard to figure out how the jury acquitted him.
The Soviet agent theory: all aspects should be covered together. Irrelevant information should be minimized (e.g. his brother).
Petlura's role in the pogroms: this is best discussed in Petlura's entry.
References: an important missing reference is the Book "Pogromchik: The assassination of Simon Petlura", by Saul S. Friedman.
Another pointer should be that Schwartzbard papers are archived in YIVO Institute for Jewish Research in New York. http://www.yivoinstitute.org
Without these changes the entry looks like a piece of Ukrainian Nationalistic propaganda.
I added some information about Schwartzbard's archive and ways in which he was commemorated. What is the real source for this : "He participated in a movie living for a time in Hollywood with his family where he played himself in a film made about the Assassination [1]."
There is no trace of a movie about Schwarzbard in the imbd. Also what is the source that he moved to the US? all the sources have him leaving in France before going on the South African expedition.
I removed this until clarification.
Mashkin 00:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Mashkin 02:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
References
Wrong quotes has been used which allegedly were used by Schwartzbard during the assassination. The official transcripts of the trial states:
"Here's my chance, I thought. 'Are you Petlura?' I asked him. He did not answer, simply lifting his heavy cane. I knew it was he.
"I shot him five times. I shot him like a soldier who knows how to shoot, and I shot straight so as not to hit any innocent passerby. At the fifth shot he fell. He didn't say a word. There were only cries and convulsions.
"When I saw him fall I knew he had received five bullets. Then I emptied my revolver. The crowd had scattered. A policeman came up quietly and said: 'Is that enough?' I answered: 'Yes.' He said: 'Then give me your revolver.' I gave him the revolver, saying: 'I have killed a great assassin.'
"When the policeman told me Petlura was dead I could not hide my Joy. I leaped forward and threw my arms about his neck."
"Then you admit premeditation?" asked the judge.
"Yes, yes!" replied M. Schwartzbard, his face lit with fanatical exultation.
With the fall of the Soviet system the archives were open for a period of time, however, since then the Russian archives have been closed. The Ukrainian ones are still open but they fdo not containe everything the Soviet Union was doing. The current reseach in Ukraine by scholars studying the previous KGB archives is to accept the Soviet agent theory, however, Ukrainian scholars have not found the document that is the proverbial "smoking gun". Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't see Yulia's signature under that piece but the signature of Museum director, anyhow I found a source where Yuschenko says Schwartzbard is a SU-agent and altered the article as such. I think Prime Minister Tymoshenko has not taken part in any discussion about Schwartzbard so I think it is a bit idiot to say that Yschenko words are (always) the words of the government. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 15:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
We should let the User IP edits stand regarding this issue, as they seem more accurate. Ostap 19:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
IP has rue Racine The Ukrainian government portal has rue Racine The edits currently are not inaccurate however IP is more specific, but does the street matter? Does rue Racine have any meaning to anyone in the Anglo speaking world? I agree that IP's edits here are more specific. Bandurist 20:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I feel that this information is relevant for a number of reasons. It sheds light on the man and his associations. If his brother was deported from France for having Communist leanings and being an active communist it suggests certain conclussions. a) That his brother may also be a Communist b) That his brother may hide his Communist sympathies in order to not be deported as well. What do you think? Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
i am a different person but ban, i think you are obsessed with anticommunism, what if he sympathised with a socialist revolution? it is pretty obvious isn't that? if only from his assasinating a nationalist character. i think your communist-witchhunt has no relevance to the 1917 circumstance and as such has no historical relevance for the article.(even trotzkism arrived after 1917, his brother needn't even have been a communist but may have been just partial to the reds over the whites) the more interesting notion that his resistance against progroms , antisemitism and nationalism got him into the red army as much as the foreignlegion during ww1 is also not made. the question rises, does your awkward relation with communism imply you support the progroms? i wouldn't be surprised. keep in mind that for sympathy with "the" revolution you need not be a communist, it suffices not to want others to be a slave. the whole spectrum of socialists sympathised with that revolution (especially in 1917). ofcourse a communist might sympathise with the elimination of a massmurderer. (that was probably at least part of his motivation to join the red army) 80.57.43.99 ( talk) 11:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The fact that he crossed the border illegally (i.e. without passport or visa has paricular connotations. a) He had no money to buy the required documents b) He was escaping repurcussions in Russia c) He (as an Anarchist had no respect for the government and did what ever he pleased.
If we look at b) What was he escaping from in Russia. 1905 was a difficult year. A year of Revolution. Anybody involved in the massive srtikes and revolts initially got the death sentence. Such writers as Hnat Khotkevych didn't participate in any strikes but as a secretary of the railwayworker's Union he was warned to leave the country which he did fleeing to Lviv in Austria-Hungary. 1905 was also the year that the Blacvk hundreds were particularly active and the call by some Russian circles "Beat the jews and Save Russia" went out and a series of massive pogroms were launched. Could this be a reason fr him crossing the border? Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Could this be a reason for him fleeing Russia in 1905? Bandurist 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC) In the link to Shwartzbard's bio there is no mention of his association with the Jewish self-defence in 1905. Maybe this is the reason he fled Russia? But I ask myself, if this was so important why was it not mentioned in the bio Bandurist 03:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The Anarchist Encyclopedia herehas many factual eras. Small but neumerous starting from it stating that Izmail is in Moldova when it in fact is in Ukraine. It mentions his arrests and deportations and mentions him joining the Bolshevik army in Odessa in 1917 and that he was active in Communist groups. It also mentions the lobbying group of publicly recognized personalities, such as Henri Bergson, Romain Rolland, Albert Einstein, & Alexander Kerensky volunteered to testify on Shalom Schwarzbard's behalf. It also states that "Torres had joined the French Communist Party.
The Institute for Jewish research here is more scholarly and to me sounds more credible and less POV. Here it gives much more information and it seems to be more accurate. Here it states "He travelled through Lemberg (Lwów, now L'viv, Ukraine), Budapest, Vienna, Italy," The Lviv (ah notice L'viv) connection has been missed totally in the article In 1917 Shalom Schwarzbard returned to Russia and joined the Red Guard in Odessa.
This bit is well crafted in a NPOV manner: During the civil war of 1918-1920, while Ukrainian forces defended national independence of the Ukraine against the Bolshevik armies and Polish territorial claims, chaos and lawlessness were rampant in the Ukraine. The pogroms that took place in the Ukraine during this time shocked the public with their brutality and and the number of their victims. According to conservative estimates 50,000 Jews fell victim to these massacres.
Also Victims and their relatives, as well as public figures concerned with this wave of violence held Symon Petliura responsible for the atrocities committed in the Ukraine. A Ukrainian nationalist and journalist, Symon Petliura, became Minister of War (holovny ataman) in the Ukrainian Central Rada, and later President of the Directorate. Although the central Ukrainian government functioned under conditions of civil war, in the eyes of the victims of the pogroms and their relatives, Symon Petliura did little to stop the pogroms. As the commander of the Ukrainian army, he was therefore perceived as the ultimate perpetrator of the atrocities.
It sounds very similar to the way some Ukrainian articles are crafted about various sensitive areas.
Once again well crafted: Both Shalom Schwarzbard and Symon Petliura immediately became public symbols. While Shalom Schwarzbard was called a Jewish national hero and appeals were made to Jews all over the world to contribute financially to his defense, Symon Petliura suddenly became a martyr of the Ukrainian émigré community and his death unified the hitherto divided Ukrainian exiles. Many Ukrainian emigrés believed that Shalom Schwarzbard was a Bolshevik agent who carried out the assassination under orders from Moscow.
In the archives thuis is interesting There are relatively few materials directly related to Shalom Schwarzbard's trial or his act. Among the exceptions are letters written by Elie Dobkovsky who participated in the trial with Shalom Schwarzbard and in his long letter tried to explain why he witnessed against him, and Shalom Schwarzbard's letters to J.M. Zalkind written from the prison.
Why would she witness against Shwartzbard and then write a ;letter of exlanation to him? Ukrainian weekly http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1996/209613.shtml from 1926 states: According to historian Michael Palij, a GPU (Soviet secret police) agent named Mikhail Volodin came to Paris that August. Allegedly, they met and Schwartzbard began stalking the UNR leader. Following his former ally Gen. Pilsudski's seizure of power in Poland on May 12, 1926, Petliura was warned by fellow members of the UNR government-in-exile and senior Ukrainian military officers that his life was in danger, but he ignored their advice and did not go into hiding.
According to a report in Le Figaro, on May 25, 1926, Schwartzbard was called away by a telephone call from lunch with his wife, returned and left hurriedly soon after.
At around 2 p.m., Petliura lunched alone at the restaurant Bouillon Chartier on rue Racine. At 2:15, as he was walking home, he stopped to look in a shop window at the corner of Boulevard St.-Michel.
A man approached, and called out in Ukrainian, "Are you Mr. Petliura?" Petliura turned to see Schwartzbard advancing on him. "Defend yourself, you bandit," the assassin shouted (as he recounted in his deposition to a judge), and as Petliura raised the cane in his right hand, Schwartzbard fired into him three times, exclaiming "This, for the pogroms; this for the massacres, this for the victims."
According to an eyewitness, the victim sank to the ground saying "Enough, enough, my God." The gunman fired four more shots into the prone man. Petliura was taken to the Hopital de la Charité on rue Jacob, where he died about 20 minutes later, at the age of 47.
After reading In 1917, while travelling to Odessa to join the Red Guards, Schwartzbard was reportedly told of Petlura's responsibility for pogroms in the Ukraine, though it is debated that Petlura was ever involved in them at all. I ask 1917 ? In 1917 Petlura had not had any involvement with the Ukrainian army until 1918 and he was not the head of the government until February 1920. Can anyone give a source for this statement? To me the statement sound false, at least the date is inaccurate Bandurist 12:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
This part also seems to me difficult to understand "After a trial lasting eight days the jury acquitted Schwarztbard and ordered the family of Petlura to compensate him for his expenses. [1]" Why would the Petlura family be ordered to pay compensation to the murdered after a murder trial? Bandurist 01:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Mashkin 01:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I edited the opening of the article. I don't know how the Publicit was born (Bandurist added it). Did you mean publisher? Anyway, this opening should only be for things that he is really well known, otherwise we will write all the article in the opening paragraph. Poet should stay, since someone may want to check who is the writer of a poem and lookup the name. The fact that he was Jewish and an anarchist should stay as well, since they were defining characteristics of his life. And of course to mention the reason he is known - the Petlura assassination. But there is no need for writing that he was a "twice convicted bank robber", nor that he was a decorated veteran or an encyclopedia salesman and fund raiser. An issue to consider is whether to mention the fact that he was acquitted of the assassination. Perhaps mention it with the trial. Maye something i.e. "known primarily for the assassination of the Ukrainian politician Symon Petliura and the sensational trial that resulted."
Mashkin 01:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
To (ab) User:Mona23653, you have inserted 'convicted bank robber' again, with no explanation, in spite of my above reasoning. As I suggested elsewhere, why don't you start the Mona Encyclopedia of Ukrainian History and leave Wikipedia alone. Mashkin 15:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Mona23653 03:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)mona23653
What point of view is there? You're the one here, who denies the facts. Is the fact that he was a repeat offender, who twice escaped from jail a point of view? He commits one crime, is sentnced, and escapes, then goes to Hugary, robs a bank, gets caught, and jailtime, and escapes, then he goes to Paris, and kills a person. He was a dangerous repeat-offener, and a criminal. I don't understand how you could classify that that's a POV. Mona23653 13:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)mona23653
He had a good lawyer just like OJ Bandurist ( talk) 18:50, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
You can't really say that he did nothing to curb the occurrence of Pogroms in Ukraine, because he did, as eveidenced by the numerous announceents and leaflets that were published at the time. Whether he had to power to totally stop them in the 11 months that he was head of the government while on Ukrainian territory is doubtful. considering the fact tht the regon was in a state of civil war with Denikin, The Reds, the Poles and the inteventionists. Yes P{etliura was head of the government from January till December of 1919 after Vynnychenlko's departure, but there is no eveidence of him ordering any Pogroms nor of him killing anyone. Schwartzbard's record hwever is not blemish free. He did kill and he is and will probably remain a controvercial figure. Bandurist ( talk) 17:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Peppering forums with meaningless comments that based on false legends and only will lead the discussion nowhere. You know nothing whether Petliura conducted any actions or not to prevent pogroms, yet have a nerve to judge his ability as a politician. The same way we all should convict now Stalin or Nicholas II of Russia. Wasn't Nikolai II who ruled the country when all the pogroms has started?
References
Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 02:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
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