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This is a merger of content from Traditional counties of Scotland and Administrative counties of Scotland based upon User:Morwen/counties of Scotland. For old talk see Talk: Administrative counties of Scotland and Talk:Traditional counties of Scotland. G-Man 23:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Often Orkney and Zetland (Shetland) were treated as a single county, with Shetland being described an 'Earldom' and Zetland being described as a 'Lordship'.
Should this say "...Orkney being described an 'Earldom'..."? — sjorford (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, here's some information which could have a bearing on the existence or not of counties at different periods.
In 1798 Lord Lyon granted arms to the County of Roxburghshire. This of course was long before county councils and the 1890 reforms.
In 1890 these arms were taken over by the county council. This appears to have been recognised by Lord Lyon, who was very quick to stop the wrongful use of someone else's arms. The arms were used by Roxburgh county Council until 1975.
In 1975 the former arms of Roxburghshire were granted to Roxburgh District Council.
As it is unlawful under Scottish heraldic law for two persons or bodies to bear the same arms, it can be assumed that Lord Lyon was satisfied that the County of Roxburghshire no longer existed in 1975. It is also reasonable to believe that the county established by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 was seen as having replaced the former county extant in 1798.
Any opinions people? Lozleader 20:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The grants were apparently so that local volunteer and militia regiments could put something on their standards.
Fox-Davies writing in 1915 had doubts about the grants, but Lord Lyon seemed happy enough.
Lozleader 17:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I shall contact Lyon Court and see if they can calrify the matter Lozleader 12:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The opening line keeps getting vandalised:
That is a statement of fact: leave it alone.-- Mais oui! 12:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not seeing any vandalism. Just an honest difference of opinion. And counties did not become units of 'local government' (as we now know it) until c 1890. There were county administrative boards before then, but no elected county councils. Laurel Bush 12:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC).
I've been watching this page for a few days with dismay, and felt I should try to offer a third opinion.
I fully agree with Laurel Bush - this is not vandalism, but perhaps is not even a simple clash of POVs - both sides agree the counties have not been used for administrative purposes since 1974, so much is obvious.
The problem lies in the prominence given to the use of counties as geographical descriptors. As this is how the counties came about, the original and long-established use of the word counties, and a use that still goes on to this day, I think it deserves more than a cursory mention in the second paragraph. At the moment, the first paragraph refers only to the use of counties as administrative units, which is not reflective of the full meaning of the term.
I would suggest a consensus rewrite of the first paragraph should be worked out on this talk page, which incorporates the geographical perspective into the existing material. Please leave the first paragraph alone till it's sorted.
If you do edit the rest of the article, please be more careful; why is the date for the establishment of the county-based administrative units being changed each edit from 1889 to 1890? Is anyone checking that there was an exclave that was part of a county as opposed to a stewartry? Or is it just being lazily reverted along with the rest? If you haven't checked it and you can't justify it, it shouldn't be included it in your edit.
If compromise isn't forthcoming, let's go through the proper channels (3O, RfM, etc...) Hopefully it won't come to that though. Aquilina 14:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Scotland is traditionally divided into 34 counties. They were used as the basis of local government between 1890—1975 and also as the basis for lieutenancy.
The counties originated prior to the Union of Scotland with England and Wales, and continued as both administrative and ceremonial units until their abolition in 1975 by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, when they were replaced with regions and districts, island council areas and the areas for Lieutenancy.
In Ayrshire there is a strong identification with the County. People never really stopped using it because the County Council was abolished in 1975. I was born in the September of 1975 and have always said I'm from Ayrshire. If anything the identification with the county can be seen in that the three unitary authorities as all use Ayrshire in the name. With the exception of the addition of the Cumbraes, Arran and Holy Isle (from Buteshire) the boundaries of Ayrshire have changed comparatively little since the county started as a Sheriffdom. It is only the Parish of Beith that has seen portions shifted out to Lanarkshire and then back again to Ayrshire.
In fact you will even find a Poem by Robert Burns Farewell to Ayrshire and he was writing within 90 years of the Union. John Galt also penned the novel the Ayrshire Legatees - pre-1890. I have read various works on Ayrshire's local history that cite and refer to documentation pre-dating the Victorians and the Union by centuries that refer to the County of Ayr as Ayrshire. So I am not sure where this leaves the theory that counties and 'shire' only date from Victorian times or that they are a post-Union imposition.
The only comment that I would make is that the attitude to the counties may be influenced by where in Scotland we are considering. The way in which the boundaries were re-arranged for northern and eastern counties may have served to reduce or prevent the formation of a county allegiance.
I sense a similar sense of identification from those from Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire. It is interesting to note that the boundaries of these two counties did not also suffer dramatic shifting. 85.211.27.104 ( talk) 20:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a fair introduction to the article:
What is the problem with that intro, from your point of view?-- Mais oui! 10:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Laurel Bush has just implemented this compromise wording:
I think that is fair enough. Does anyone have any specific points they would like to contest?-- Mais oui! 13:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Two Questions:
1. If, as Mais oui! claims, counties did not exist before the victorians, what act or acts created them as they were used prior to the effects of the act of 1889? This strikes me as a rather important detail.
2. Did or did not the 1947 or 1973 Local Government (Scotland) Acts repeal the 1899 LG(S)A?
If the answer to 2. is yes, then they probably technically exist if the answer to 1 has not be repealed. If not, then they probably do not technically exist. If someone would like to research this, it may put an end to this argument.
Stringops 18:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I changed the article in line with what I believe to be a fair account of the case. So not Victorian, nothing to do with acts of Parliament in 1889 or 1947, but "things" which had existed for a long time and which evolved at different speeds in different places. "Things" which served multiple purposes: first the area that sheriffs worked in, then sending Commissioners to the Scots Parliament, then electing MPs to Westminster, and then local government. Comments about anglification deleted. If most counties end in -shire, it doesn't take an anglicising conspiracy to have all counties get -shired. No matter how bizarre Fifeshire, Forfarshire and Buteshire appear (true also of Somersetshire, so it's not just Scotland), they have plenty of usage behind them (1708-whenever), which counts for more than any amount of WP:OR. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Being an inquisitive fellow, I just spent some time going through the two volumes of Samuel Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Scotland ( 1846) to see what he had to say about the counties at the time, and it turned out to be quite interesting. The following were the counties at that time:
The county has eight districts: Aberdeen, alford, Deer otherwise Buchan, Ellon, Garioch, Kincardine-O'Neil, Stratbogie, and Turriff; in each of which, under the super-intendence of a deputy lieutenant, the county magistrates hold regular courts.
The county consists of the districts of Argyll, Cowal, Islay, Cantyre, Lorn, and Mull; and is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, by whom three sheriffs-substitute are appointed, who reside respectively at Inverary, which is the county town, at Campbelltown, and Tobermory.
The county contains the districts of Cunnnghame, Kyle, and Carrick...
The county contains the districts of Boyne Enzle, Strath-Doveron, Strathaven, Balvenle, and part of Buchan,
Contains the districts of Merse, Lammermor, and Lauderdale.
Contains the districts of Wick and Thurso, where the quarter sessions are held alternately, Wick being the seat of the sheriff court.
The various courts are held at Dumbarton, which is the county town...
The county originally occupied the central portion of the ancient province of Lothian, or Loudon, and from this circumstance it obtained the appellation of Mid Lothian, by which it is still often designated. For civil purposes, it was first erected in the reign of David I., and is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff, by whom two sheriffs-substitute are appointed...
For civil purposes joined with the shire of NAIRN under one sheriff, who appoints a sheriff-substitute for both.
The county anciently formed part of the extensive district of Ross, which derived its name from its peninsular shape, and included the present counties of Kinross and Clackmannan, with portions of the counties of Perth and Stirling, all under one common jurisdiction. The lands of Clackmannan were first separated from the district and erected into a distinct county; and subsequently in 1425, that portion forming the head of the peninsula was made a county under the appellation of Kinross. The remainder, including a small part previously belonging to Perthshire, almost entirely constitutes the modern county of Fife. The shire is divided into the districts of cupar, kirkcaldy, St Andrew's, and Dunfermline; a sheriff court is held at Cupar for the three first-named, and one at Dunfermline for the last-mentioned district.
In civil matters, the district, for a very long period, was merely a constabulary subject to the jurisdiction of the sherriff of Edinburgh; but in the reign of James II. of England and VII. of Scotland was erected into an independent county.
With the counties of Aberdeen and Banff, it constitutes the Eastern, or Aberdeen circuit for justiciary purposes, and the courts are held in the former county twice a year, in spring and autumn.
Prior to the year 1426, the greater portion of the county was part of that of Fife; and for a considerable time after its separation, it contained only the parishes of Kinross, Orwell, and Portmoak; but in 1685 were added the parishes of Cleish and Tulliebole, and some small portions of the county of Perth. It remained, however, notwithstanding this accession of territory, under the jurisdiction of the sherriff of Fifeshire till the year 1807, when, conjointly with Clackmannan, it was erected into a sheriffdom. For civil purposes, it is under the superintendence of a sheriff-substitute, who resides at Kinross, the county-town, where all courts are held...
The Stewartry of Kircudbright was for some time included in the county of Dumfries, and was under the jurisdiction of the same sheriff; but every vestige of this connexion was lost prior to the the time of Charles I., since which period it has to all intents formed a distinct and independent county, though still retaining its ancient appellation. For civil purposes it is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff, or stewart, by whom a stewart-substitute is appointed.
In the reign of James I., a portion of Start-Cluyd was separated from the county of Lanark, and formed into the county of Renfrew. For civil purposes, the county is divided into the Upper, Middle and Lower wards, under the jurisdiction of three sherriffs-substitute, who reside respectively at Lanark, Hamilton and Glasgow.
...in the reign of David I, this district of the Lothians was erected into a separate sherrifdom. The civil affairs are transacted at Linlithgow, which is the county-town...
In civil matters, it and Elginshire are under the jurisdiction of one sheriff, but it has a resident sheriff-substitute for itself.
For civil purposes, Orkney, which was previously a county of itself, has, since the passing of the act for amending the representation, been united with with Shetland, under the jurisdiction of one sheriff, by whom two sheriff-substitutes are appointed. One of these holds his courts weekly at Kirkwall.
For civil purposes the county was originally under the jurisdiction of two sheriffs, one of whom resided at Traquair, and the other at Peebles; but since the abolition of heritable jurisdictions, it has been under one sheriff only, by whom a sheriff-substitute is appointed, and who holds his several courts at Peebles, which is the shire town.
It was anciently divided into the districts of Monteith, Gowrie, Perth, Strathearn, the Stormont, Bredalbane, Rannoch, Balquhidder, and Atholl, all of which were stewartries under the jurisdiction of the great landholders to whom they gave titles, but which, since the abolition of heritable jurisdictions, have ceased to be under any peculiar authority. Two sheriffs-substitute are appointed by the sheriff, who reside respectively at Perth and Dunblane; and for civil purposes the county is divided into the districts of Perth, Blairgowrie, Weem, Culross, Auchterarder, Crieff, Dunblane, Carse of Gowrie, and Coupar-Angus, in each of which petty-sessions are held by the magistrates, and quarterly small-debt courts by the sherrifs-substitute.
The district of Renfrew anciently formed part of the county of Lanark; but in 1404, Robert III. erected the lands of Renfrew, with the other estates of the Stuart family, into a principality, which became hereditary in the eldest sons of Scottish kings; and the barony of Renfrew was separated from the shire of Lanark, and constituted an independent county. For civil purposes it is divided into the upper and lower ward; the sheriff court for the former is held at Paisley, and for the latter at Greenock. The quarter-sessions are held at Renfrew, which is the shire-town...
For civil purposes they are under the superintendence of three sheriffs-substitute, one of whom holds his courts at Cromarty and Tain, another at Dingwall and Fortrose, and the third at Stornoway in the island of Lewis. Ross and Cromarty include the districts of Ardross, Easter Ross, Ardmcanach or the Black Isle, Kintail, Strathcarron, and the greater part of the Isle of Lewis.
For civil purposes, it is divided into the four districts of Jedburgh, Kelso, melrose, and Hawick...
For civil purposes the islands are united with those of Orkney, forming one county under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, who appoints two sheriffs-substitute, one for each of the districts.
For civil purposes it is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, who appoints a sheriff-substitute.
For civil purposes, the county, once a portion of the sheriffdom of Caithness, has been separated from that shire, and erected into a distinct sheriffdom, of which Dornoch, as the county town, is the seat of court.
For civil purposes the county is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, by whom a sheriff-substitute is appointed, who resides at Wigtown, the county-town...
Also two cities were counties of themselves (and headed by a Lord Provost):
Sheriff appointed to the City and Liberties by James III.
...and in 1690 by charter of William III., the citizens received all the privileges of a ROYAL BURGH, with rights and immunities as full and free as those of Edinburgh. Under this charter... the government of the city is vested in a lord provost...
On further research it turns out that Dundee only became a county of a city in 1894 [3] and Aberdeen in 1900 [4], which I hadn't realised.
It's interseting to see that joint county administration was in force long before the 1889 or 1929 Acts.
Lozleader 17:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Err ... Yes. I am wondering what happen to county consituencies as county boundaries were redrawn, eg when county councils were created circa 1890. Also, the above has me wondering about what to make of the allocation of burghs to counties in District of Burghs. Laurel Bush 17:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC).
Lozleader 09:59, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I seem to remember entities called 'district courts', below the level of sheriff courts. I believe they still exist and imagine there may be officially defined districts, of one sort or another, even as I write. Laurel Bush 11:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC).
The compromise wording is a big improvement on the previous text, but I agree with one of Owain's points about the opening paragraph - we start talking about the abolition of the administrative areas before we even put our finger on what they are, or how they evolved! The ordering seems somewhat backwards to me for an article specifically on the counties - the present order is more suited to the History of Local Government in Scotland article.
It would be nice to incorporate some of the material from the current fourth paragraph into the first, to give the introduction a more natural chronological progression of ideas: as a rough first draft, I'd propose the following -
Comments and improvements invited please! Aquilina 17:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Following a request at my Talk from Aquilina I have responded in detail to his/her proposal. It looks a bit messy, but I am trying to show and explain every change to their original:
Note: we do not necessarily have to describe the word "county" with the adjective "English": it could just as technically accurately be described as " Norman", " Anglo-Norman", or " continental European". However, in this context (the UK in the Modern period) I think that the word "English" is the most accurate and the least confusing. The important point is that we must make crystal clear that the word "county" is not an indigenous Scottish word (indeed, as Margaret Thatcher pointed out shortly before her resignation, the word "county" is entirely alien to England too, because England never had counts, but I seriously digress... ) That is my contribution for now.-- Mais oui! 02:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
After having lost his arguments here, User:Owain has taken to attempting to pull the wool over readers' eyes over at the templates for Scottish counties, by replacing "former" (which they are) to "traditional" or "historic" (which they most certainly are not - having been invented in the modern period and abolished in 1975):
I urge all Users who care about factual accuracy here at Wikipedia to assist me in my attempt to prevent User:Owain (and User:Astrotrain, the less said about the better) from pulling the wool over readers eyes on this topic.-- Mais oui! 15:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I note the request for expert opinion now heading the article. Not sure what sort of expertise might be helpful.
Seems to me county has a variety of different meanings depending on time and context, but it is now most closely associated with local government areas as defined under legislation dating from the late 19th century. A page called
Counties of Scotland (disambiguation) might be helpful.
The idea that counties were simply abolished, for all purposes, in 1975, seems contradicted by the current content of
Registration county. And I get the impression that registration counties may never have had the boundaries of counties for other purposes.
Laurel Bush 10:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC).
I found reference at [7] to 'The Inverness and Elgin County Boundaries Act', which made exchanges between the counties of Inverness and Moray. Morwen - Talk 11:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
"The London encyclopaedia" (1839) has this to say on the topic of Galloway:
Unfortunately Google's scan of this book breaks somewhere around page 800 and I can't look up KIRKCUDBRIGHT and WIGTON in it.
Morwen - Talk 14:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Seems likely. The New Statistical Account has a General Observations section on Wigton (v. 4, pp. 218ff.), it says:
Wigtonshire is sometimes called West Galloway, or the shire of Galloway, or more briefly, the shire; the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright being denominated East Galloway; the two are known by the common name of Galloway.
Google books finds things like "The chief town of East-Galloway is Kircudbright, on the river Dee; and the capital of West-Galloway is Wigton, on the sea-coast" (1828); "Kirkcudbright, or East Galloway" (1834); "KIRKCUDBRIGHT or EAST GALLOWAY" (1842); "sometimes called Upper or West Galloway" (1831); "Galloway, a district of Scotland, now divided into East and West Galloway" (1821); "GALLOWAY, LOWER, or the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright" (1839). Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I am just wondering whether Cromartyshire was actually used? The lists of counties only ever refers to Cromarty and not Cromartyshire. It would appear to me that when Scotish counties were anglicised in 1890 Cromarty was included in the new county of Ross & Cromarty and has been ever since, so as far as I can tell it has never been called Cromartyshire. Yet Cromartyshire is referred to in the article, so I am a little confused. Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Scottish history than me could clear this one up.( BigTurnip ( talk) 02:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC))
Wondering from where comes the notion that Scottish counties were 'anglicised' in 1890. County councils were introduced and boundaries were redrawn, in parallel with similar development in England. However, it is true that use of the shire suffix can be avoided for all counties in Scotland and seems quite inappropriate for some (eg Fife), and the county of prefix can be used for all. This consistency of usage can not be applied re English counties however, because eg shire is very integral to the names Berkshire and Hampshire, while Durhamshire is quite inappropriate. Laurel Bush ( talk) 11:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC).
I have replaced the 1890-1975 map with a much more accurate one that shows the burghs, districts and counties of cities as well as the counties themselves. I will replace the Pre-1890 map too as soon as that is complete. XrysD ( talk) 12:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Can I suggest exercising some patience and allow a response to the above before you start making further edits to the article (particularly if they are as ungrammatical/botched as your last two). Also, you may disagree with Mais Oui!'s edits but shrilly accusing them of vandalism, when that is clearly not the case, is hardly going to engender a constructive debate. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Please take care with your edits. You have just re-inserted the sentence: "Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Talk:Shires of Scotland". What on earth is that supposed to mean? Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Good heavens... I'm not talking about the links, I'm talking about how it has displayed in the article, i.e. "Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Talk:Shires of Scotland". Look at it. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Mind reading is not a skill I possess. If you place something incomprehensible on a page you can't just expect people to a) magically know your intent b) clear up your mess. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 09:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
"This is a merger of content from Traditional counties of Scotland and Administrative counties of Scotland based upon User:Morwen/counties of Scotland. For old talk see Talk: Administrative counties of Scotland and Talk:Traditional counties of Scotland. G-Man 23:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC) "
Perhaps it may have been best to keep the talk - Traditional Counties of Scotland, separate from the talk - Administrative counties of Scotland. Scotire ( talk) 23:41, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Inventing a new term like "New Regional Local Government administration areas", and even using it as a header, is just plain silly. But, apart from the obvious common-sense argument, a stronger argument is that it breaches official policy here at Wikipedia: WP:VERIFY. We base our articles on what reliable external sources say, not on what inventive new Users make up in their own heids. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 04:25, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
1 (County) + 1 (Local Government Administration) = 2 (County + Local Government Administration).
2 (County + Local Government Administration) - 1 (Local Government Administration) = 1 (County)
and
1 county (Dumfriesshire) + 1 county (Kirkcudbrightshire) + 1 county (Wigtownshire) = Dumfries and Galloway Regional Council area.
Scotire ( talk) 16:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Working backwards from the use of the phrase in the 1947 Act, I can't find anything to suggest the phrase (distinct from simply "city") actually has any validity WRT Scotland. It appears once in the 1889 Act but with no definition, suggesting that it might have been carelessly cribbed from prior English legislation. I have never encountered use of the phrase as a description in e.g. civil registration records in Scotland while it was a standard description in England. MBRZ48 ( talk) 04:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
This article should be renamed as Counties of Scotland as in Scotland counties are not referred to as "shires". Jamie Stuart ( talk) 15:15, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
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This is a merger of content from Traditional counties of Scotland and Administrative counties of Scotland based upon User:Morwen/counties of Scotland. For old talk see Talk: Administrative counties of Scotland and Talk:Traditional counties of Scotland. G-Man 23:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Often Orkney and Zetland (Shetland) were treated as a single county, with Shetland being described an 'Earldom' and Zetland being described as a 'Lordship'.
Should this say "...Orkney being described an 'Earldom'..."? — sjorford (talk) 16:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, here's some information which could have a bearing on the existence or not of counties at different periods.
In 1798 Lord Lyon granted arms to the County of Roxburghshire. This of course was long before county councils and the 1890 reforms.
In 1890 these arms were taken over by the county council. This appears to have been recognised by Lord Lyon, who was very quick to stop the wrongful use of someone else's arms. The arms were used by Roxburgh county Council until 1975.
In 1975 the former arms of Roxburghshire were granted to Roxburgh District Council.
As it is unlawful under Scottish heraldic law for two persons or bodies to bear the same arms, it can be assumed that Lord Lyon was satisfied that the County of Roxburghshire no longer existed in 1975. It is also reasonable to believe that the county established by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 was seen as having replaced the former county extant in 1798.
Any opinions people? Lozleader 20:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
The grants were apparently so that local volunteer and militia regiments could put something on their standards.
Fox-Davies writing in 1915 had doubts about the grants, but Lord Lyon seemed happy enough.
Lozleader 17:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I shall contact Lyon Court and see if they can calrify the matter Lozleader 12:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The opening line keeps getting vandalised:
That is a statement of fact: leave it alone.-- Mais oui! 12:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not seeing any vandalism. Just an honest difference of opinion. And counties did not become units of 'local government' (as we now know it) until c 1890. There were county administrative boards before then, but no elected county councils. Laurel Bush 12:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC).
I've been watching this page for a few days with dismay, and felt I should try to offer a third opinion.
I fully agree with Laurel Bush - this is not vandalism, but perhaps is not even a simple clash of POVs - both sides agree the counties have not been used for administrative purposes since 1974, so much is obvious.
The problem lies in the prominence given to the use of counties as geographical descriptors. As this is how the counties came about, the original and long-established use of the word counties, and a use that still goes on to this day, I think it deserves more than a cursory mention in the second paragraph. At the moment, the first paragraph refers only to the use of counties as administrative units, which is not reflective of the full meaning of the term.
I would suggest a consensus rewrite of the first paragraph should be worked out on this talk page, which incorporates the geographical perspective into the existing material. Please leave the first paragraph alone till it's sorted.
If you do edit the rest of the article, please be more careful; why is the date for the establishment of the county-based administrative units being changed each edit from 1889 to 1890? Is anyone checking that there was an exclave that was part of a county as opposed to a stewartry? Or is it just being lazily reverted along with the rest? If you haven't checked it and you can't justify it, it shouldn't be included it in your edit.
If compromise isn't forthcoming, let's go through the proper channels (3O, RfM, etc...) Hopefully it won't come to that though. Aquilina 14:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Scotland is traditionally divided into 34 counties. They were used as the basis of local government between 1890—1975 and also as the basis for lieutenancy.
The counties originated prior to the Union of Scotland with England and Wales, and continued as both administrative and ceremonial units until their abolition in 1975 by the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, when they were replaced with regions and districts, island council areas and the areas for Lieutenancy.
In Ayrshire there is a strong identification with the County. People never really stopped using it because the County Council was abolished in 1975. I was born in the September of 1975 and have always said I'm from Ayrshire. If anything the identification with the county can be seen in that the three unitary authorities as all use Ayrshire in the name. With the exception of the addition of the Cumbraes, Arran and Holy Isle (from Buteshire) the boundaries of Ayrshire have changed comparatively little since the county started as a Sheriffdom. It is only the Parish of Beith that has seen portions shifted out to Lanarkshire and then back again to Ayrshire.
In fact you will even find a Poem by Robert Burns Farewell to Ayrshire and he was writing within 90 years of the Union. John Galt also penned the novel the Ayrshire Legatees - pre-1890. I have read various works on Ayrshire's local history that cite and refer to documentation pre-dating the Victorians and the Union by centuries that refer to the County of Ayr as Ayrshire. So I am not sure where this leaves the theory that counties and 'shire' only date from Victorian times or that they are a post-Union imposition.
The only comment that I would make is that the attitude to the counties may be influenced by where in Scotland we are considering. The way in which the boundaries were re-arranged for northern and eastern counties may have served to reduce or prevent the formation of a county allegiance.
I sense a similar sense of identification from those from Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire. It is interesting to note that the boundaries of these two counties did not also suffer dramatic shifting. 85.211.27.104 ( talk) 20:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a fair introduction to the article:
What is the problem with that intro, from your point of view?-- Mais oui! 10:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Laurel Bush has just implemented this compromise wording:
I think that is fair enough. Does anyone have any specific points they would like to contest?-- Mais oui! 13:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Two Questions:
1. If, as Mais oui! claims, counties did not exist before the victorians, what act or acts created them as they were used prior to the effects of the act of 1889? This strikes me as a rather important detail.
2. Did or did not the 1947 or 1973 Local Government (Scotland) Acts repeal the 1899 LG(S)A?
If the answer to 2. is yes, then they probably technically exist if the answer to 1 has not be repealed. If not, then they probably do not technically exist. If someone would like to research this, it may put an end to this argument.
Stringops 18:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I changed the article in line with what I believe to be a fair account of the case. So not Victorian, nothing to do with acts of Parliament in 1889 or 1947, but "things" which had existed for a long time and which evolved at different speeds in different places. "Things" which served multiple purposes: first the area that sheriffs worked in, then sending Commissioners to the Scots Parliament, then electing MPs to Westminster, and then local government. Comments about anglification deleted. If most counties end in -shire, it doesn't take an anglicising conspiracy to have all counties get -shired. No matter how bizarre Fifeshire, Forfarshire and Buteshire appear (true also of Somersetshire, so it's not just Scotland), they have plenty of usage behind them (1708-whenever), which counts for more than any amount of WP:OR. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Being an inquisitive fellow, I just spent some time going through the two volumes of Samuel Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of Scotland ( 1846) to see what he had to say about the counties at the time, and it turned out to be quite interesting. The following were the counties at that time:
The county has eight districts: Aberdeen, alford, Deer otherwise Buchan, Ellon, Garioch, Kincardine-O'Neil, Stratbogie, and Turriff; in each of which, under the super-intendence of a deputy lieutenant, the county magistrates hold regular courts.
The county consists of the districts of Argyll, Cowal, Islay, Cantyre, Lorn, and Mull; and is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, by whom three sheriffs-substitute are appointed, who reside respectively at Inverary, which is the county town, at Campbelltown, and Tobermory.
The county contains the districts of Cunnnghame, Kyle, and Carrick...
The county contains the districts of Boyne Enzle, Strath-Doveron, Strathaven, Balvenle, and part of Buchan,
Contains the districts of Merse, Lammermor, and Lauderdale.
Contains the districts of Wick and Thurso, where the quarter sessions are held alternately, Wick being the seat of the sheriff court.
The various courts are held at Dumbarton, which is the county town...
The county originally occupied the central portion of the ancient province of Lothian, or Loudon, and from this circumstance it obtained the appellation of Mid Lothian, by which it is still often designated. For civil purposes, it was first erected in the reign of David I., and is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff, by whom two sheriffs-substitute are appointed...
For civil purposes joined with the shire of NAIRN under one sheriff, who appoints a sheriff-substitute for both.
The county anciently formed part of the extensive district of Ross, which derived its name from its peninsular shape, and included the present counties of Kinross and Clackmannan, with portions of the counties of Perth and Stirling, all under one common jurisdiction. The lands of Clackmannan were first separated from the district and erected into a distinct county; and subsequently in 1425, that portion forming the head of the peninsula was made a county under the appellation of Kinross. The remainder, including a small part previously belonging to Perthshire, almost entirely constitutes the modern county of Fife. The shire is divided into the districts of cupar, kirkcaldy, St Andrew's, and Dunfermline; a sheriff court is held at Cupar for the three first-named, and one at Dunfermline for the last-mentioned district.
In civil matters, the district, for a very long period, was merely a constabulary subject to the jurisdiction of the sherriff of Edinburgh; but in the reign of James II. of England and VII. of Scotland was erected into an independent county.
With the counties of Aberdeen and Banff, it constitutes the Eastern, or Aberdeen circuit for justiciary purposes, and the courts are held in the former county twice a year, in spring and autumn.
Prior to the year 1426, the greater portion of the county was part of that of Fife; and for a considerable time after its separation, it contained only the parishes of Kinross, Orwell, and Portmoak; but in 1685 were added the parishes of Cleish and Tulliebole, and some small portions of the county of Perth. It remained, however, notwithstanding this accession of territory, under the jurisdiction of the sherriff of Fifeshire till the year 1807, when, conjointly with Clackmannan, it was erected into a sheriffdom. For civil purposes, it is under the superintendence of a sheriff-substitute, who resides at Kinross, the county-town, where all courts are held...
The Stewartry of Kircudbright was for some time included in the county of Dumfries, and was under the jurisdiction of the same sheriff; but every vestige of this connexion was lost prior to the the time of Charles I., since which period it has to all intents formed a distinct and independent county, though still retaining its ancient appellation. For civil purposes it is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff, or stewart, by whom a stewart-substitute is appointed.
In the reign of James I., a portion of Start-Cluyd was separated from the county of Lanark, and formed into the county of Renfrew. For civil purposes, the county is divided into the Upper, Middle and Lower wards, under the jurisdiction of three sherriffs-substitute, who reside respectively at Lanark, Hamilton and Glasgow.
...in the reign of David I, this district of the Lothians was erected into a separate sherrifdom. The civil affairs are transacted at Linlithgow, which is the county-town...
In civil matters, it and Elginshire are under the jurisdiction of one sheriff, but it has a resident sheriff-substitute for itself.
For civil purposes, Orkney, which was previously a county of itself, has, since the passing of the act for amending the representation, been united with with Shetland, under the jurisdiction of one sheriff, by whom two sheriff-substitutes are appointed. One of these holds his courts weekly at Kirkwall.
For civil purposes the county was originally under the jurisdiction of two sheriffs, one of whom resided at Traquair, and the other at Peebles; but since the abolition of heritable jurisdictions, it has been under one sheriff only, by whom a sheriff-substitute is appointed, and who holds his several courts at Peebles, which is the shire town.
It was anciently divided into the districts of Monteith, Gowrie, Perth, Strathearn, the Stormont, Bredalbane, Rannoch, Balquhidder, and Atholl, all of which were stewartries under the jurisdiction of the great landholders to whom they gave titles, but which, since the abolition of heritable jurisdictions, have ceased to be under any peculiar authority. Two sheriffs-substitute are appointed by the sheriff, who reside respectively at Perth and Dunblane; and for civil purposes the county is divided into the districts of Perth, Blairgowrie, Weem, Culross, Auchterarder, Crieff, Dunblane, Carse of Gowrie, and Coupar-Angus, in each of which petty-sessions are held by the magistrates, and quarterly small-debt courts by the sherrifs-substitute.
The district of Renfrew anciently formed part of the county of Lanark; but in 1404, Robert III. erected the lands of Renfrew, with the other estates of the Stuart family, into a principality, which became hereditary in the eldest sons of Scottish kings; and the barony of Renfrew was separated from the shire of Lanark, and constituted an independent county. For civil purposes it is divided into the upper and lower ward; the sheriff court for the former is held at Paisley, and for the latter at Greenock. The quarter-sessions are held at Renfrew, which is the shire-town...
For civil purposes they are under the superintendence of three sheriffs-substitute, one of whom holds his courts at Cromarty and Tain, another at Dingwall and Fortrose, and the third at Stornoway in the island of Lewis. Ross and Cromarty include the districts of Ardross, Easter Ross, Ardmcanach or the Black Isle, Kintail, Strathcarron, and the greater part of the Isle of Lewis.
For civil purposes, it is divided into the four districts of Jedburgh, Kelso, melrose, and Hawick...
For civil purposes the islands are united with those of Orkney, forming one county under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, who appoints two sheriffs-substitute, one for each of the districts.
For civil purposes it is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, who appoints a sheriff-substitute.
For civil purposes, the county, once a portion of the sheriffdom of Caithness, has been separated from that shire, and erected into a distinct sheriffdom, of which Dornoch, as the county town, is the seat of court.
For civil purposes the county is under the jurisdiction of a sheriff-depute, by whom a sheriff-substitute is appointed, who resides at Wigtown, the county-town...
Also two cities were counties of themselves (and headed by a Lord Provost):
Sheriff appointed to the City and Liberties by James III.
...and in 1690 by charter of William III., the citizens received all the privileges of a ROYAL BURGH, with rights and immunities as full and free as those of Edinburgh. Under this charter... the government of the city is vested in a lord provost...
On further research it turns out that Dundee only became a county of a city in 1894 [3] and Aberdeen in 1900 [4], which I hadn't realised.
It's interseting to see that joint county administration was in force long before the 1889 or 1929 Acts.
Lozleader 17:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Err ... Yes. I am wondering what happen to county consituencies as county boundaries were redrawn, eg when county councils were created circa 1890. Also, the above has me wondering about what to make of the allocation of burghs to counties in District of Burghs. Laurel Bush 17:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC).
Lozleader 09:59, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I seem to remember entities called 'district courts', below the level of sheriff courts. I believe they still exist and imagine there may be officially defined districts, of one sort or another, even as I write. Laurel Bush 11:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC).
The compromise wording is a big improvement on the previous text, but I agree with one of Owain's points about the opening paragraph - we start talking about the abolition of the administrative areas before we even put our finger on what they are, or how they evolved! The ordering seems somewhat backwards to me for an article specifically on the counties - the present order is more suited to the History of Local Government in Scotland article.
It would be nice to incorporate some of the material from the current fourth paragraph into the first, to give the introduction a more natural chronological progression of ideas: as a rough first draft, I'd propose the following -
Comments and improvements invited please! Aquilina 17:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Following a request at my Talk from Aquilina I have responded in detail to his/her proposal. It looks a bit messy, but I am trying to show and explain every change to their original:
Note: we do not necessarily have to describe the word "county" with the adjective "English": it could just as technically accurately be described as " Norman", " Anglo-Norman", or " continental European". However, in this context (the UK in the Modern period) I think that the word "English" is the most accurate and the least confusing. The important point is that we must make crystal clear that the word "county" is not an indigenous Scottish word (indeed, as Margaret Thatcher pointed out shortly before her resignation, the word "county" is entirely alien to England too, because England never had counts, but I seriously digress... ) That is my contribution for now.-- Mais oui! 02:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
After having lost his arguments here, User:Owain has taken to attempting to pull the wool over readers' eyes over at the templates for Scottish counties, by replacing "former" (which they are) to "traditional" or "historic" (which they most certainly are not - having been invented in the modern period and abolished in 1975):
I urge all Users who care about factual accuracy here at Wikipedia to assist me in my attempt to prevent User:Owain (and User:Astrotrain, the less said about the better) from pulling the wool over readers eyes on this topic.-- Mais oui! 15:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I note the request for expert opinion now heading the article. Not sure what sort of expertise might be helpful.
Seems to me county has a variety of different meanings depending on time and context, but it is now most closely associated with local government areas as defined under legislation dating from the late 19th century. A page called
Counties of Scotland (disambiguation) might be helpful.
The idea that counties were simply abolished, for all purposes, in 1975, seems contradicted by the current content of
Registration county. And I get the impression that registration counties may never have had the boundaries of counties for other purposes.
Laurel Bush 10:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC).
I found reference at [7] to 'The Inverness and Elgin County Boundaries Act', which made exchanges between the counties of Inverness and Moray. Morwen - Talk 11:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
"The London encyclopaedia" (1839) has this to say on the topic of Galloway:
Unfortunately Google's scan of this book breaks somewhere around page 800 and I can't look up KIRKCUDBRIGHT and WIGTON in it.
Morwen - Talk 14:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Seems likely. The New Statistical Account has a General Observations section on Wigton (v. 4, pp. 218ff.), it says:
Wigtonshire is sometimes called West Galloway, or the shire of Galloway, or more briefly, the shire; the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright being denominated East Galloway; the two are known by the common name of Galloway.
Google books finds things like "The chief town of East-Galloway is Kircudbright, on the river Dee; and the capital of West-Galloway is Wigton, on the sea-coast" (1828); "Kirkcudbright, or East Galloway" (1834); "KIRKCUDBRIGHT or EAST GALLOWAY" (1842); "sometimes called Upper or West Galloway" (1831); "Galloway, a district of Scotland, now divided into East and West Galloway" (1821); "GALLOWAY, LOWER, or the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright" (1839). Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I am just wondering whether Cromartyshire was actually used? The lists of counties only ever refers to Cromarty and not Cromartyshire. It would appear to me that when Scotish counties were anglicised in 1890 Cromarty was included in the new county of Ross & Cromarty and has been ever since, so as far as I can tell it has never been called Cromartyshire. Yet Cromartyshire is referred to in the article, so I am a little confused. Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Scottish history than me could clear this one up.( BigTurnip ( talk) 02:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC))
Wondering from where comes the notion that Scottish counties were 'anglicised' in 1890. County councils were introduced and boundaries were redrawn, in parallel with similar development in England. However, it is true that use of the shire suffix can be avoided for all counties in Scotland and seems quite inappropriate for some (eg Fife), and the county of prefix can be used for all. This consistency of usage can not be applied re English counties however, because eg shire is very integral to the names Berkshire and Hampshire, while Durhamshire is quite inappropriate. Laurel Bush ( talk) 11:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC).
I have replaced the 1890-1975 map with a much more accurate one that shows the burghs, districts and counties of cities as well as the counties themselves. I will replace the Pre-1890 map too as soon as that is complete. XrysD ( talk) 12:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Can I suggest exercising some patience and allow a response to the above before you start making further edits to the article (particularly if they are as ungrammatical/botched as your last two). Also, you may disagree with Mais Oui!'s edits but shrilly accusing them of vandalism, when that is clearly not the case, is hardly going to engender a constructive debate. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:10, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Please take care with your edits. You have just re-inserted the sentence: "Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Talk:Shires of Scotland". What on earth is that supposed to mean? Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Good heavens... I'm not talking about the links, I'm talking about how it has displayed in the article, i.e. "Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Talk:Shires of Scotland". Look at it. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Mind reading is not a skill I possess. If you place something incomprehensible on a page you can't just expect people to a) magically know your intent b) clear up your mess. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 09:16, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
"This is a merger of content from Traditional counties of Scotland and Administrative counties of Scotland based upon User:Morwen/counties of Scotland. For old talk see Talk: Administrative counties of Scotland and Talk:Traditional counties of Scotland. G-Man 23:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC) "
Perhaps it may have been best to keep the talk - Traditional Counties of Scotland, separate from the talk - Administrative counties of Scotland. Scotire ( talk) 23:41, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Inventing a new term like "New Regional Local Government administration areas", and even using it as a header, is just plain silly. But, apart from the obvious common-sense argument, a stronger argument is that it breaches official policy here at Wikipedia: WP:VERIFY. We base our articles on what reliable external sources say, not on what inventive new Users make up in their own heids. -- Mais oui! ( talk) 04:25, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
1 (County) + 1 (Local Government Administration) = 2 (County + Local Government Administration).
2 (County + Local Government Administration) - 1 (Local Government Administration) = 1 (County)
and
1 county (Dumfriesshire) + 1 county (Kirkcudbrightshire) + 1 county (Wigtownshire) = Dumfries and Galloway Regional Council area.
Scotire ( talk) 16:52, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Working backwards from the use of the phrase in the 1947 Act, I can't find anything to suggest the phrase (distinct from simply "city") actually has any validity WRT Scotland. It appears once in the 1889 Act but with no definition, suggesting that it might have been carelessly cribbed from prior English legislation. I have never encountered use of the phrase as a description in e.g. civil registration records in Scotland while it was a standard description in England. MBRZ48 ( talk) 04:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
This article should be renamed as Counties of Scotland as in Scotland counties are not referred to as "shires". Jamie Stuart ( talk) 15:15, 3 March 2020 (UTC)