This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The recent new additions were made in good faith, but I have reverted the biography section back to how it was. The reasons are as follows:
1. At least 3 people worked concurrently in its creation and there was some heated debate about it and compromises in content and wording. 2. The new addition has problems with grammar and appears to be a fairly rapid writing that will require a fair amount of work to re-integrate. 3. The new addition has problems with encyclopedic wording. 4. Many of the new additions are unsourced, including direct quotes.
So there is a lot of work to try and fix and integrate the new additions, and it's not clear they really add anything to the previous edition which covered it pretty well. Green Cardamom ( talk) 00:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks User:Comatmebro for trying to improve the article, but watch out for unbalanced soapboxing. - M0rphzone ( talk) 05:52, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Blaine Harden talks about how Shin ratted out his mother after he overhead them talking about escape. However, this directly contrasts with what Shin himself says in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjDD8HOhuA Specifically around the 04:45 mark in the video he states "I was on my way to work when officers came in and blindfolded me and took me away... According to the officers, my mom and brother tried to escape. Until this day what they told me is all I know."
Can someone confirm that the translation on the video is correct? If it is then Shin's own words should take precedence over Harden's. [1]
Shin Dong-hyuk is notable as being the only known person to escape to the West from a NK camp. As such the details of his experiences in the camp, and how he escaped, are central to what make him notable - the reason people will want to read the article. Any encyclopedia article that did not contain this information would be a problem. The article focuses on those details, telling Shin's life in the camp and how he escaped, all reliably sourced. The argument that it is too much like a story and non-encyclopedic is inaccurate because anything less would be incomplete. Each sentence is factual, objective and sourced. If there are specific words or whatever then they can be addressed, but fundamentally there is nothing wrong with the type of content or how it is presented. Should this be contested (again) I will open a dispute resolution since previous talk (see Archive) was not sufficient. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 10:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
"When working at a textile factory, Shin befriended a 40 year old political prisoner from Pyongyang named Park, who was educated and had traveled outside North Korea. Park told Shin about the world, including stories about food that Shin had never experienced before, such as chicken, pork and beef. For Shin, nearly every meal had been a soupy gruel of cabbage, corn and salt, with the occasional wild-caught rat and insects. Excited by the idea of being able to eat as much food as he wanted, which Shin considered the meaning of freedom, he decided to try and escape with Park."
Page Ratings as of December 4, 2012:
These ratings are reset to 0 every 30 days or so (not sure when). Will revisit in a month or two to compare. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 20:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
We really need a photo of Shin in this article. And I know editors aren't supposed to show pov/tone, but the Internet makes it so easy for people to tune out and have disinhibition to things. Maybe a photo would help reduce disinhibition. - M0rphzone ( talk) 07:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
What about Blaine Harden saying that Shin was a liar ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.65.93.36 ( talk) 15:11, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
So Harden says that Shin has changed his story and may not be giving a reliable account.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:43, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Has there been any attempt to corroborate Shin's story? If so, it should be included here. Some of his account lacks internal logic, e.g. the story of bribing border guards with food. Why could they not simply arrest him and seize his food?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 23:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
That hardly inspires confidence.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 01:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
One of the main questions of Blane's book is if Shin's story is accurate, there is lots of evidence peppered throughout. I suppose a paragraph on the veracity of Shin's story wouldn't hurt but honestly it's not high on my list because since there is no known controversy. One could play sleuth with every aspect of his story, but on Wikipedia we just report what the sources say, and I'm not aware of any reliable sources that question Shin.. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 07:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
The point is that all the supporting evidence comes from Shin or Harden. There are plenty of cases of biographical deception. We have the examples of Norma Khouri and Curveball (informant). At the very least it would be good to have some source, such as an expert on North Korea, who endorses Shin's incredible story.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 11:23, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
So it all comes back to trusting Harden (and Shin), no matter how unbelievable the story is. There is no independent verification, and little internal logic.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:14, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
What sources? All the sources are from Harden or Shin. Look at the citation list.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
It's funny when all I do is ask for some independent corroboration and NPOV on North Korea, I'm accused of making things up, having crank theories etc, and worst of all undertaking "original research".-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
PS For all the protestions about fact-checking, Blaine Harden is clearly careless with the truth. In the book, he says DPRK's electric power was based on oil powered generators and collapsed with the fall of the USSR (p 89 as published by Mantle, London, 2012). In fact, there are coal and hydro generators, and there is enough power to run electric trains across the country and wire every village (See Barbara Demick,Nothing to Envy, Fourth Estate, Sydney, 2010, pp 64, 67). Wikipedia should not endorse badly researched diatribes like this book.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 21:46, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
What about quoting an "expert", instead of just quoting sensationalist journalists? Is there a quote by someone like Andrei Lankov backing the Shin story?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:20, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
It is important to remember that Wikipedia's view of verifiability includes no original research, and so it would simply be imprudent to have the article express doubts about the veracity of Shin's story simply based on claims made here. If there are any serious reliable sources that posit such claims, they very well could be appropriate to include. Ender and Peter 05:38, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
And in fact all North Koreans are subject to compulsory military service, the Korean People's Army has a million men and women under arms, and the country is awash with weapons, so in fact a popular uprising would be more than possible. Anyone who has travelled through the DPRK as I have could tell you that. Ergo, Shin has never done this. He is assuming, as an outsider, that the KPA is separate from the population. In fact, more or less, every North Korean is either in the KPA (including reserves, militia etc), or was in the KPA, or will be in the KPA. All they need to do is turn their guns on the regime and the game is over...!!! To repeat: it is increasingly clear that Shin has never been to North Korea.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 22:46, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
how about some info on that SK journalist? 60 mins interview claims that he got fired for helping shin, yet i can't google up who he was. moreover, shin says he took the name "dong-hyuk" in gratitude to same; was that, in fact, his NAME? i can't google up any journalist by that name either, even allowing for a diff surname.
also, what of that adoptive couple outside columbus, OH? i think 60 mins actually identified them by name (linda/lowell dye).
also, a lot more about the timing of park's arrival in the camp and their plan together. i think shin said it was about 9 months from start to finish. i find it amazing that they'd start talking so openly about escape given what shin had done the last time he heard of a plot!
one interesting factoid in the 60 mins interview, btw, was that shin had never heard of kim ilsung, kim jongil, or "juche" until he met this guy! definitely warrants inclusion.
btw, he stated in that interview that park was instantly electrocuted and that he, shin, climbed over the dead body, but in a different interview at some conference (found on youtube) he states, rather, "incapacitated"...even adding "i don't know. if someone discovered him in time, they might have pulled him off the wire and he's still alive back in the camp".
section should be tweaked to reflect this.
i think there's at least some possibility park was moaning "help me" when shin climbed over him, thinking "every man for himself now". 209.172.25.231 ( talk) 03:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 18:46, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Shin Dong-hyuk (human rights activist) → Shin Dong-hyuk – I had heard of Shin Dong-hyuk (born Shin In Geun) even before reading Blaine Harden's book, and after I have begun to read it, I've become even more astonished with this guy. I think he's far more notable than the South Korean footballer or the fictional character. Therefore he deserves the primary use of the article title "Shin Dong-hyuk". JIP | Talk 17:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC) JIP | Talk 17:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Is this going to be made into a movie? Crap, it was, some boring docu snoozer. I hoped to g%d it would have Tom Cruise starring. I do know that real life is stranger than fiction, but this article takes the cake. I am not sure how to improve this article, but I do want to echo some of the same points made above and please ask editors not to assume bad faith when people ask for corroboration and for including any sources that might question the accuracy of this "story". I think I read above about "believing propaganda" or such not which is not helpful. Anyways, good luck sorting this out and still keeping my fingers crossed for the movie, I haven't been to one in 10 years, but this would certainly make me go :). -- Malerooster ( talk) 21:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The recent new additions were made in good faith, but I have reverted the biography section back to how it was. The reasons are as follows:
1. At least 3 people worked concurrently in its creation and there was some heated debate about it and compromises in content and wording. 2. The new addition has problems with grammar and appears to be a fairly rapid writing that will require a fair amount of work to re-integrate. 3. The new addition has problems with encyclopedic wording. 4. Many of the new additions are unsourced, including direct quotes.
So there is a lot of work to try and fix and integrate the new additions, and it's not clear they really add anything to the previous edition which covered it pretty well. Green Cardamom ( talk) 00:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks User:Comatmebro for trying to improve the article, but watch out for unbalanced soapboxing. - M0rphzone ( talk) 05:52, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Blaine Harden talks about how Shin ratted out his mother after he overhead them talking about escape. However, this directly contrasts with what Shin himself says in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjDD8HOhuA Specifically around the 04:45 mark in the video he states "I was on my way to work when officers came in and blindfolded me and took me away... According to the officers, my mom and brother tried to escape. Until this day what they told me is all I know."
Can someone confirm that the translation on the video is correct? If it is then Shin's own words should take precedence over Harden's. [1]
Shin Dong-hyuk is notable as being the only known person to escape to the West from a NK camp. As such the details of his experiences in the camp, and how he escaped, are central to what make him notable - the reason people will want to read the article. Any encyclopedia article that did not contain this information would be a problem. The article focuses on those details, telling Shin's life in the camp and how he escaped, all reliably sourced. The argument that it is too much like a story and non-encyclopedic is inaccurate because anything less would be incomplete. Each sentence is factual, objective and sourced. If there are specific words or whatever then they can be addressed, but fundamentally there is nothing wrong with the type of content or how it is presented. Should this be contested (again) I will open a dispute resolution since previous talk (see Archive) was not sufficient. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 10:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
"When working at a textile factory, Shin befriended a 40 year old political prisoner from Pyongyang named Park, who was educated and had traveled outside North Korea. Park told Shin about the world, including stories about food that Shin had never experienced before, such as chicken, pork and beef. For Shin, nearly every meal had been a soupy gruel of cabbage, corn and salt, with the occasional wild-caught rat and insects. Excited by the idea of being able to eat as much food as he wanted, which Shin considered the meaning of freedom, he decided to try and escape with Park."
Page Ratings as of December 4, 2012:
These ratings are reset to 0 every 30 days or so (not sure when). Will revisit in a month or two to compare. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 20:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
We really need a photo of Shin in this article. And I know editors aren't supposed to show pov/tone, but the Internet makes it so easy for people to tune out and have disinhibition to things. Maybe a photo would help reduce disinhibition. - M0rphzone ( talk) 07:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
What about Blaine Harden saying that Shin was a liar ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.65.93.36 ( talk) 15:11, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
So Harden says that Shin has changed his story and may not be giving a reliable account.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:43, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Has there been any attempt to corroborate Shin's story? If so, it should be included here. Some of his account lacks internal logic, e.g. the story of bribing border guards with food. Why could they not simply arrest him and seize his food?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 23:05, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
That hardly inspires confidence.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 01:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
One of the main questions of Blane's book is if Shin's story is accurate, there is lots of evidence peppered throughout. I suppose a paragraph on the veracity of Shin's story wouldn't hurt but honestly it's not high on my list because since there is no known controversy. One could play sleuth with every aspect of his story, but on Wikipedia we just report what the sources say, and I'm not aware of any reliable sources that question Shin.. -- Green Cardamom ( talk) 07:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
The point is that all the supporting evidence comes from Shin or Harden. There are plenty of cases of biographical deception. We have the examples of Norma Khouri and Curveball (informant). At the very least it would be good to have some source, such as an expert on North Korea, who endorses Shin's incredible story.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 11:23, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
So it all comes back to trusting Harden (and Shin), no matter how unbelievable the story is. There is no independent verification, and little internal logic.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:14, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
What sources? All the sources are from Harden or Shin. Look at the citation list.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
It's funny when all I do is ask for some independent corroboration and NPOV on North Korea, I'm accused of making things up, having crank theories etc, and worst of all undertaking "original research".-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
PS For all the protestions about fact-checking, Blaine Harden is clearly careless with the truth. In the book, he says DPRK's electric power was based on oil powered generators and collapsed with the fall of the USSR (p 89 as published by Mantle, London, 2012). In fact, there are coal and hydro generators, and there is enough power to run electric trains across the country and wire every village (See Barbara Demick,Nothing to Envy, Fourth Estate, Sydney, 2010, pp 64, 67). Wikipedia should not endorse badly researched diatribes like this book.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 21:46, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
What about quoting an "expert", instead of just quoting sensationalist journalists? Is there a quote by someone like Andrei Lankov backing the Shin story?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:20, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
It is important to remember that Wikipedia's view of verifiability includes no original research, and so it would simply be imprudent to have the article express doubts about the veracity of Shin's story simply based on claims made here. If there are any serious reliable sources that posit such claims, they very well could be appropriate to include. Ender and Peter 05:38, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
And in fact all North Koreans are subject to compulsory military service, the Korean People's Army has a million men and women under arms, and the country is awash with weapons, so in fact a popular uprising would be more than possible. Anyone who has travelled through the DPRK as I have could tell you that. Ergo, Shin has never done this. He is assuming, as an outsider, that the KPA is separate from the population. In fact, more or less, every North Korean is either in the KPA (including reserves, militia etc), or was in the KPA, or will be in the KPA. All they need to do is turn their guns on the regime and the game is over...!!! To repeat: it is increasingly clear that Shin has never been to North Korea.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 22:46, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
how about some info on that SK journalist? 60 mins interview claims that he got fired for helping shin, yet i can't google up who he was. moreover, shin says he took the name "dong-hyuk" in gratitude to same; was that, in fact, his NAME? i can't google up any journalist by that name either, even allowing for a diff surname.
also, what of that adoptive couple outside columbus, OH? i think 60 mins actually identified them by name (linda/lowell dye).
also, a lot more about the timing of park's arrival in the camp and their plan together. i think shin said it was about 9 months from start to finish. i find it amazing that they'd start talking so openly about escape given what shin had done the last time he heard of a plot!
one interesting factoid in the 60 mins interview, btw, was that shin had never heard of kim ilsung, kim jongil, or "juche" until he met this guy! definitely warrants inclusion.
btw, he stated in that interview that park was instantly electrocuted and that he, shin, climbed over the dead body, but in a different interview at some conference (found on youtube) he states, rather, "incapacitated"...even adding "i don't know. if someone discovered him in time, they might have pulled him off the wire and he's still alive back in the camp".
section should be tweaked to reflect this.
i think there's at least some possibility park was moaning "help me" when shin climbed over him, thinking "every man for himself now". 209.172.25.231 ( talk) 03:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 18:46, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Shin Dong-hyuk (human rights activist) → Shin Dong-hyuk – I had heard of Shin Dong-hyuk (born Shin In Geun) even before reading Blaine Harden's book, and after I have begun to read it, I've become even more astonished with this guy. I think he's far more notable than the South Korean footballer or the fictional character. Therefore he deserves the primary use of the article title "Shin Dong-hyuk". JIP | Talk 17:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC) JIP | Talk 17:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Is this going to be made into a movie? Crap, it was, some boring docu snoozer. I hoped to g%d it would have Tom Cruise starring. I do know that real life is stranger than fiction, but this article takes the cake. I am not sure how to improve this article, but I do want to echo some of the same points made above and please ask editors not to assume bad faith when people ask for corroboration and for including any sources that might question the accuracy of this "story". I think I read above about "believing propaganda" or such not which is not helpful. Anyways, good luck sorting this out and still keeping my fingers crossed for the movie, I haven't been to one in 10 years, but this would certainly make me go :). -- Malerooster ( talk) 21:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)