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Shell is often colloquially used to refer to projectiles, but it is correctly an abbreviation for shell casing. Technically, the first usage in incorrect, and many soldiers will wince when they see it used encyclopedically. Would anyone object to merging this article with Ammunition, or changing the title to something else?
I know a merge would be a lot of work, but I'll do what I can. And the results would be a super-article worthy of being featured on the front page. — Michael Z. 2005-03-19 15:38 Z
The COD has a definition of shell as "explosive projectile or bomb for use in big gun or mortar" GraemeLeggett 16:20, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A segestion to start a seperate entry, 'Shot (Projectile)' and move all non-shell projectiles (AP, APC, APCBC, APCR, APCNR, APDS and APFSDS) subsections to it, as none are actually shells!-- NeilGibson 10:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to create a secton for trajectories of various shells and such? Still new here, so I thought I'd ask. Dp76764 20:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I always heard that WWI's trench warfare led to the replacement of shrapnel shell with high explosive, is there any contradictory citations that could be provided? Wilhelm Ritter 20:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
What is the term for that brass or copper band fitted around the diameter of a shell near the base, whose purpose is to accept the rifling and spin the projectile? It's a French term. Borroulet? Bouroulet? Borrolette? Google has not been helpful, perhaps because I do not know how to spell the word.
The article makes comment "This usage continued into the 1950s". I am aware of the pound system being used in the Territorial Armed forces of the United Kingdom into the 1980's, and 25 punder guns still being used in ceremonial situations throughout the 1990's right up to the present day.
I have no specific reference material for this, save my own testimony, and wonder whether it needs recording into the article.
Xelous - 15th August 2007.
Somebody keeps running a robot to change all occurrences of Fuze to Fuse. Fuze is the customary English language spelling for ammunition igniters. Fuses are something in an electrical layout. Rcbutcher ( talk) 11:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Fuzes detonate ordinance, fuses communicate fire. Both are proper when used distinctly and correctly. 63.224.79.50 ( talk) 04:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
H'mm, lets try from the beginning. First ordinance hasn't hurt anyone for a century or two but might well have annoyed them more recently. However, ordnance in some uses might, munition is a less confusing term because ordnance is the term for the barrel, breach and perhaps muzzlebrake assembly, and we don't want these bursting.
Next fuzes don't necessilly detonate, they may explode if the are using or ignite gunpowder, only high explosives detonate. Igniferous fuzes used a timer powder train, these were in use into the 1950s and called Fuzes, it said so on the ammo box.
So we'll change fuse back tio fuze because that is the correct usage for artillery and similar munitions. Nfe ( talk) 09:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
APDS was developed by engineers working for the French Edgar Brandt company, and was fielded in two calibers (75 mm/57 mm for the Mle1897/33 75 mm anti-tank cannon, 37 mm/25 mm for several 37 mm gun types) just before the French-German armistice of 1940.
IIRC, this is not a discarding sabot type, the sabot remained with the round in flight right up to impact. APDS was developed in the UK and was first used in the 6 pdr and 17 pdr anti tank guns. Otherwise how did the Germans not come to hear of the French developments, APDS became the best anti-tank round there was right up to the 1980s, and AFAIR, the Germans never knew of it until they captured ammunition for these two guns from the British in 1944. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.249.189 ( talk) 10:38, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
The page says that there are no shells larger than 203 mm in use today. However, I do know that the Soviet Union made 240 mm mortars, and I am not sure they are completely out of use. Omeganian ( talk) 15:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
"though modern usage includes large solid projectiles previously termed shot (AP, APCR, APCNR, APDS, APFSDS and proof shot)." where does this claim come from? The under-informed frequently use incorrect terms, nothing new here. This does not make it 'modern usage'.
Also need to consider the place of mortar bombs. In some languages I think the terms for shell and mortar bomb are the same, granate in German may be an example (and this term certainly doesn't include shot!). Nfe ( talk) 09:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
This item is still fundametnally flawed. It correctly recognises that shell is different to shot. It then includes shot on the flimsy premise of 'modern usage' without offering a shred of evidence to support this claim. All the shot stuff should be deleted or moved to a new entry. Nfe ( talk) 12:08, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the biggest shell allowed for consumer fireworks is, but I know here in PA, we have 3" firework shells for consumer firework displays that are legal if you have a driver's license, and a firework permit, So I think the section about American fireworks should be changed. 70.44.153.247 ( talk) 02:39, 18 June 2011 (UTC)Ethan
Added this:
Recovering shells Shells of various types of munition are generally made from pure cupper. Due to the high value of this material, some countries instruct their soldiers to recover most or even all of the shells. For example, in 2011, the Belgian army recovered 65000 euro worth of shells. [1] Additional advantages of the recovering of spent shells are the decreasing of environmental pollution (littering) by the army, and the fact that the shells can not be reused by locals (ie to make IED's). Also, in the event that depleted uranium were to (have) be(en) present in the shells, radiation is eliminated, and finally soldiers themselves do not give away the positions they occupied during a battle, making it more difficult for the enemy to study their assault technique.
Wasn't this gun used specifically as an antipersonnel weapon by the wehrmacht and weren't its shells in this capacity of the outlawed shrapnel type. My late father was wounded on the Siegfried Line in September 1944 and claimed that to be true.--johncheverly 20:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)johncheverly/9/21/12/4:40pm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johncheverly ( talk • contribs)
What 'outlawed shrapnel'? The shrapnel article makes no mention of it being outlawed. The were incendiary shrapnel type shells for 88mm FLAK but they weren't very effective and the improved version didn't enter service before the war ended. Nfe ( talk) 03:04, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
The following is such a specific and assertive claim 3 months ago by an unsigned user, that it cannot be allowed to remain on display when it is completely unverified, not to mention slightly ridiculous. Considering the only need for fins is with long rod pentrators and the use long rod penetrators was restricted to bunker busting through concentrate with very large rochling shells, it simply does not add up.
Also which British major? which battle? where are the results from the after battle report of the tanks by the techs who check every single tank kill for evidence of what happened to it?
Yes the Germans devloped sabot, first for their anti aircraft guns, to increase the maximum altitude Yes the Germans had experimental fin stabalised sub caliber sabot HE rounds for increased range. Yes the Germans had long rod penatration shells for bunkers, called PGG which were huge and fired from superguns.
All of the above can be easily verified, but the claim that the germans were using APFSDS in tank guns and anti tank guns is proving elusive to put it mildly, so we should not be filling peoples heads with it.
removed section. Originally developed by the Germans in World War 2, citation needed as PzGr.44., it was designed to be fired by German 88 mm, 105 mm and 128 mm tank and anti-tank guns. Extensive Rheinmetall-Borsig range tests were conducted and these were recovered by the Allies after the war's end. The earliest documented evidence of use is of a spent PzGr.44. APFSDS "dart" being discovered stuck into the ground by a British army major after a tank battle, Germany in February 1944. A APFSDSHE version was also under development for the Kriegsmarine in 1945.
Another spin off development was the Fin Stabilised Descarding Sabot High Explosive (FSDSHE) shell intended to increase the range, with obvious reduction of explosive potential, of German artillery. It is not known if FSDSHE was ever produced or used in combat.
Kyphen ( talk) 15:50, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
The sentence in paragraph no. 5 of the "History" section beginning "English inventor notable Armstrong, Whitworth and Lancaster ..." (marked by me with "[?]") has been edited into senselessness; would the article author care to fix this? Epischedda ( talk) 11:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Certainly this article's "History" section could bear some delineation of the different explosives used in explosive shells. Gunpowder was used up to when? When did TNT become favored, and why? Answers to questions like these are the main reason I sought this article and they remain lacking. Epischedda ( talk) 13:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I am no native speaker; therefore; I ask so. else to bring the following into the article:
when new explosives were discovered and used in 'Brisanzgranaten' – especially Pikrinsäure (TNP), the ancestor of TNT – a feeling of crisis came up among military in France (La crise de l'obus torpille, source [1]) ; in Germany [ Brisanzgranatenkrise. The french army shelled the Fort de Malmaison to test the new grenades and had to discover that almost any brickwork was damaged or destroyed. The french 'Barrière de fer' built after the franco-gerrman war 1870/71 lost a big part of its value. Some parts of the forts / blockhouses were fortified with extra hard concrete.
At the beginning of WW I, the german army sieged the Fort of Maubeuge. Two weeks after the shelling began it had to capitulate. Around 1890, a fort was built in the Sanssouci Park as a model to demonstrate which types of hard-facing against brisance shells were possible / imaginable.
-- Neun-x ( talk) 14:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
" The key requirement for increasing the HE content without increasing shell weight was to reduce the thickness of shell walls, this required improvements in high tensile steel."
I don't understand. Had the shells not been completely filled before or what? It might be helpful to clear up if "content" in this context means a percentage of the weight (probably) or a fraction of the volume.
It is a load of poo really, it does nothing but blow people up and kill them. What's the fun of that? ″Just stop all this nonsense″ that's what I say! now go look at some ponies okay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.211.255.52 ( talk) 18:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Reading the early history as given would give the reader the impression that all innovation was done by the British. Much to be certain was but hardly all. The French did much to deploy shell guns and most of the invention of those gun was done the the US starting as early as 1812. I'd urge a bit more research before allowing the article to continue as it is. Regards, Tirronan ( talk) 05:44, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Tagged the currently unsourced assertion that there are no shells smaller than 20mm due to manufacturing dificulty (what is this? the 1700s?) and added the more pertinant information that small-calibre exploding ammunition in warfare is technically banned under the loose wording of the St Petersburg accords. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.177.229 ( talk) 09:06, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
In the "Separate loading cased charge" section it says that semi-fixed is a "variant of separate loading cased charge ammunition". It goes on to say "the round is then reassembled, loaded, and fired." If it is loaded in one piece, how is that a type of "separate loading"? I don't have access to Hogg 1972 - does he really say semi-fixed is a variant of separate loading? Other sources consider semi-fixed to be distinct from separate loading. Nurg ( talk) 01:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the section references the Chinese measurement of "half a mou" in describing an explosions effects. While the embedded link does show a guide to Chinese units the "mou" does not appear in that list. It seems from context that it means the "mǔ" and I'm just missing some aspect of the language(singular vs plural?). In addition some quick research showed that the Mou varied over time and from region to region and the description dates back to the 14th century.
The article would be more useful if that measurement was translated in the text itself.
I propose that it read "...heat over an area of more than half a mou(Approximately X square meters). When hit, even..." and would appreciate if someone with sufficient understanding of Chinese units in this historical context could provide a reasonable estimate. Aniftou ( talk) 01:34, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Shell is often colloquially used to refer to projectiles, but it is correctly an abbreviation for shell casing. Technically, the first usage in incorrect, and many soldiers will wince when they see it used encyclopedically. Would anyone object to merging this article with Ammunition, or changing the title to something else?
I know a merge would be a lot of work, but I'll do what I can. And the results would be a super-article worthy of being featured on the front page. — Michael Z. 2005-03-19 15:38 Z
The COD has a definition of shell as "explosive projectile or bomb for use in big gun or mortar" GraemeLeggett 16:20, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A segestion to start a seperate entry, 'Shot (Projectile)' and move all non-shell projectiles (AP, APC, APCBC, APCR, APCNR, APDS and APFSDS) subsections to it, as none are actually shells!-- NeilGibson 10:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Would it be appropriate to create a secton for trajectories of various shells and such? Still new here, so I thought I'd ask. Dp76764 20:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I always heard that WWI's trench warfare led to the replacement of shrapnel shell with high explosive, is there any contradictory citations that could be provided? Wilhelm Ritter 20:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
What is the term for that brass or copper band fitted around the diameter of a shell near the base, whose purpose is to accept the rifling and spin the projectile? It's a French term. Borroulet? Bouroulet? Borrolette? Google has not been helpful, perhaps because I do not know how to spell the word.
The article makes comment "This usage continued into the 1950s". I am aware of the pound system being used in the Territorial Armed forces of the United Kingdom into the 1980's, and 25 punder guns still being used in ceremonial situations throughout the 1990's right up to the present day.
I have no specific reference material for this, save my own testimony, and wonder whether it needs recording into the article.
Xelous - 15th August 2007.
Somebody keeps running a robot to change all occurrences of Fuze to Fuse. Fuze is the customary English language spelling for ammunition igniters. Fuses are something in an electrical layout. Rcbutcher ( talk) 11:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Fuzes detonate ordinance, fuses communicate fire. Both are proper when used distinctly and correctly. 63.224.79.50 ( talk) 04:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
H'mm, lets try from the beginning. First ordinance hasn't hurt anyone for a century or two but might well have annoyed them more recently. However, ordnance in some uses might, munition is a less confusing term because ordnance is the term for the barrel, breach and perhaps muzzlebrake assembly, and we don't want these bursting.
Next fuzes don't necessilly detonate, they may explode if the are using or ignite gunpowder, only high explosives detonate. Igniferous fuzes used a timer powder train, these were in use into the 1950s and called Fuzes, it said so on the ammo box.
So we'll change fuse back tio fuze because that is the correct usage for artillery and similar munitions. Nfe ( talk) 09:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
APDS was developed by engineers working for the French Edgar Brandt company, and was fielded in two calibers (75 mm/57 mm for the Mle1897/33 75 mm anti-tank cannon, 37 mm/25 mm for several 37 mm gun types) just before the French-German armistice of 1940.
IIRC, this is not a discarding sabot type, the sabot remained with the round in flight right up to impact. APDS was developed in the UK and was first used in the 6 pdr and 17 pdr anti tank guns. Otherwise how did the Germans not come to hear of the French developments, APDS became the best anti-tank round there was right up to the 1980s, and AFAIR, the Germans never knew of it until they captured ammunition for these two guns from the British in 1944. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.249.189 ( talk) 10:38, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
The page says that there are no shells larger than 203 mm in use today. However, I do know that the Soviet Union made 240 mm mortars, and I am not sure they are completely out of use. Omeganian ( talk) 15:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
"though modern usage includes large solid projectiles previously termed shot (AP, APCR, APCNR, APDS, APFSDS and proof shot)." where does this claim come from? The under-informed frequently use incorrect terms, nothing new here. This does not make it 'modern usage'.
Also need to consider the place of mortar bombs. In some languages I think the terms for shell and mortar bomb are the same, granate in German may be an example (and this term certainly doesn't include shot!). Nfe ( talk) 09:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
This item is still fundametnally flawed. It correctly recognises that shell is different to shot. It then includes shot on the flimsy premise of 'modern usage' without offering a shred of evidence to support this claim. All the shot stuff should be deleted or moved to a new entry. Nfe ( talk) 12:08, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the biggest shell allowed for consumer fireworks is, but I know here in PA, we have 3" firework shells for consumer firework displays that are legal if you have a driver's license, and a firework permit, So I think the section about American fireworks should be changed. 70.44.153.247 ( talk) 02:39, 18 June 2011 (UTC)Ethan
Added this:
Recovering shells Shells of various types of munition are generally made from pure cupper. Due to the high value of this material, some countries instruct their soldiers to recover most or even all of the shells. For example, in 2011, the Belgian army recovered 65000 euro worth of shells. [1] Additional advantages of the recovering of spent shells are the decreasing of environmental pollution (littering) by the army, and the fact that the shells can not be reused by locals (ie to make IED's). Also, in the event that depleted uranium were to (have) be(en) present in the shells, radiation is eliminated, and finally soldiers themselves do not give away the positions they occupied during a battle, making it more difficult for the enemy to study their assault technique.
Wasn't this gun used specifically as an antipersonnel weapon by the wehrmacht and weren't its shells in this capacity of the outlawed shrapnel type. My late father was wounded on the Siegfried Line in September 1944 and claimed that to be true.--johncheverly 20:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)johncheverly/9/21/12/4:40pm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johncheverly ( talk • contribs)
What 'outlawed shrapnel'? The shrapnel article makes no mention of it being outlawed. The were incendiary shrapnel type shells for 88mm FLAK but they weren't very effective and the improved version didn't enter service before the war ended. Nfe ( talk) 03:04, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
The following is such a specific and assertive claim 3 months ago by an unsigned user, that it cannot be allowed to remain on display when it is completely unverified, not to mention slightly ridiculous. Considering the only need for fins is with long rod pentrators and the use long rod penetrators was restricted to bunker busting through concentrate with very large rochling shells, it simply does not add up.
Also which British major? which battle? where are the results from the after battle report of the tanks by the techs who check every single tank kill for evidence of what happened to it?
Yes the Germans devloped sabot, first for their anti aircraft guns, to increase the maximum altitude Yes the Germans had experimental fin stabalised sub caliber sabot HE rounds for increased range. Yes the Germans had long rod penatration shells for bunkers, called PGG which were huge and fired from superguns.
All of the above can be easily verified, but the claim that the germans were using APFSDS in tank guns and anti tank guns is proving elusive to put it mildly, so we should not be filling peoples heads with it.
removed section. Originally developed by the Germans in World War 2, citation needed as PzGr.44., it was designed to be fired by German 88 mm, 105 mm and 128 mm tank and anti-tank guns. Extensive Rheinmetall-Borsig range tests were conducted and these were recovered by the Allies after the war's end. The earliest documented evidence of use is of a spent PzGr.44. APFSDS "dart" being discovered stuck into the ground by a British army major after a tank battle, Germany in February 1944. A APFSDSHE version was also under development for the Kriegsmarine in 1945.
Another spin off development was the Fin Stabilised Descarding Sabot High Explosive (FSDSHE) shell intended to increase the range, with obvious reduction of explosive potential, of German artillery. It is not known if FSDSHE was ever produced or used in combat.
Kyphen ( talk) 15:50, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
The sentence in paragraph no. 5 of the "History" section beginning "English inventor notable Armstrong, Whitworth and Lancaster ..." (marked by me with "[?]") has been edited into senselessness; would the article author care to fix this? Epischedda ( talk) 11:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Certainly this article's "History" section could bear some delineation of the different explosives used in explosive shells. Gunpowder was used up to when? When did TNT become favored, and why? Answers to questions like these are the main reason I sought this article and they remain lacking. Epischedda ( talk) 13:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I am no native speaker; therefore; I ask so. else to bring the following into the article:
when new explosives were discovered and used in 'Brisanzgranaten' – especially Pikrinsäure (TNP), the ancestor of TNT – a feeling of crisis came up among military in France (La crise de l'obus torpille, source [1]) ; in Germany [ Brisanzgranatenkrise. The french army shelled the Fort de Malmaison to test the new grenades and had to discover that almost any brickwork was damaged or destroyed. The french 'Barrière de fer' built after the franco-gerrman war 1870/71 lost a big part of its value. Some parts of the forts / blockhouses were fortified with extra hard concrete.
At the beginning of WW I, the german army sieged the Fort of Maubeuge. Two weeks after the shelling began it had to capitulate. Around 1890, a fort was built in the Sanssouci Park as a model to demonstrate which types of hard-facing against brisance shells were possible / imaginable.
-- Neun-x ( talk) 14:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
" The key requirement for increasing the HE content without increasing shell weight was to reduce the thickness of shell walls, this required improvements in high tensile steel."
I don't understand. Had the shells not been completely filled before or what? It might be helpful to clear up if "content" in this context means a percentage of the weight (probably) or a fraction of the volume.
It is a load of poo really, it does nothing but blow people up and kill them. What's the fun of that? ″Just stop all this nonsense″ that's what I say! now go look at some ponies okay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.211.255.52 ( talk) 18:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Reading the early history as given would give the reader the impression that all innovation was done by the British. Much to be certain was but hardly all. The French did much to deploy shell guns and most of the invention of those gun was done the the US starting as early as 1812. I'd urge a bit more research before allowing the article to continue as it is. Regards, Tirronan ( talk) 05:44, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
Tagged the currently unsourced assertion that there are no shells smaller than 20mm due to manufacturing dificulty (what is this? the 1700s?) and added the more pertinant information that small-calibre exploding ammunition in warfare is technically banned under the loose wording of the St Petersburg accords. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.177.229 ( talk) 09:06, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
In the "Separate loading cased charge" section it says that semi-fixed is a "variant of separate loading cased charge ammunition". It goes on to say "the round is then reassembled, loaded, and fired." If it is loaded in one piece, how is that a type of "separate loading"? I don't have access to Hogg 1972 - does he really say semi-fixed is a variant of separate loading? Other sources consider semi-fixed to be distinct from separate loading. Nurg ( talk) 01:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the section references the Chinese measurement of "half a mou" in describing an explosions effects. While the embedded link does show a guide to Chinese units the "mou" does not appear in that list. It seems from context that it means the "mǔ" and I'm just missing some aspect of the language(singular vs plural?). In addition some quick research showed that the Mou varied over time and from region to region and the description dates back to the 14th century.
The article would be more useful if that measurement was translated in the text itself.
I propose that it read "...heat over an area of more than half a mou(Approximately X square meters). When hit, even..." and would appreciate if someone with sufficient understanding of Chinese units in this historical context could provide a reasonable estimate. Aniftou ( talk) 01:34, 25 May 2023 (UTC)