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Hello Dabaqabad! You reverted [1] five edits by me, with the edit summary Unexplained removal; sources are reliable. I tried my best to explain in my edit summaries, but of course more space may be needed for a proper explanation. So here goes:
Sheikh Ishaaq belonged to the Banu Hashim subclan of the Quraysh and was a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, Prophet Mohammed's son in-law and Fatimah, his daughter, which is based on the following source: MENAFN. "Somaliland: History of Sheikh Isaaq Bin Ahmed Bin Muhammad (AL-HASHIMI)". menafn.com. Retrieved 2021-03-24. This is a newspaper article which cites no sources, and is not reliable in this context. If you insist it is reliable, we can take it to WP:RSN.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)Please discuss these sources one by one. As suggested, we can also go to
WP:RSN and/or
WP:NORN for specific sources. An alternative option is to ask for a
third opinion. Thanks!
☿
Apaugasma (
talk
☉)
19:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
مشكلة الحدود الصومالية - الإثيوبية ودور القوى الدولية فيها ٦٧..١٣٩٨هـ/٤٨..١٩٨٧م written by سليمان حاج عبدالله فارح, published by Saudi Arabia’s Umm Al Qura university, page ٢, الفصل التمهيدي. Link: [ [11]]
Dabaqabad ( talk) 23:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Wow Dabaqabad, that's a very thorough and interesting explanation!
Thanks for that.
You're clearly somewhat of an expert on this topic, and it's always good to see that someone takes an interest in pitifully neglected subjects such as this. However, as well-acquainted as you are with the subject, I think that your approach to sources at this moment is fundamentally incompatible with Wikipedia, and would need to change for you to contribute here in accordance with policy.
I will begin by quoting #5 above, Lewis 1994, pp. 103–104 (who is renowned internationally as the foremost scholar on Somali history and culture):
Similar traditions are conserved by the Isaaq in regard to their ancestor Sheikh Isaaq. His descendants trace their ancestor's pedigree to 'Ali, the son of Abuu Taalib, who married the Prophets's daughter Faatima. Stories similar to those which attach to Sheikh Daarood describe Sheikh Isaaq's arrival from Arabia at the ancient Somali port of Zeila in the northwest of the ex-Protectorate and near the border with Djibouti. [...] Again, as with Sheikh Daarood, there are a number of published hagiologies in Arabic which describe not only the Sheikhs's movements and life and works in Somaliland but also his peregrinations in Arabia before his arrival among the Somali. These works contain a mass of unlikely circumstantial detail and repeatedly insist on the validity of Sheikh Isaaq's pedigree, a feature which itself suggests that the genealogy is suspect. As in the case of Sheikh Daarood, the names in the Arabian sections of the genealogy are also unconvincing since they represent those current at the time of the Prophet rather than, as one would expect if the genealogies were historically genuine, medieval local Arab names. And although in this case there is little divergence between the dates recorded in the hagiologies and those conserved in oral tradition, there are again strong grounds for doubting the authenticity of the genealogical claims made. Thus it seems that the traditions surrounding the origins and advent from Arabia of Sheikh Daarood and Isaaq have the character of myths rather than of history even although there is every reason to believe that one aspect of Somaliland's long contact with Arabia has been the settlement over the centuries of parties of Arab immigrants. In this this respect the Daarood and Isaaq legends represent historical fact. But quite apart from this, their real significance in Somali culture lies in the fact that they validate, in a traditional Somali idiom, the Muslim basis of Somali culture.
Ref: Lewis, Ioan M. (1994). Blood and Bone: The Call of Kinship in Somali Society. Lawrencewill, NJ: The Red Sea Press. ISBN 0-932415-93-8.
This sums it all up, really. The late 19th-century/early 20th-century works by Sharīf Mubayd, Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad al-Ghurbānī, Sharīf Aydurus, Aḥmad ʿAbd Allah Rīrāsh al-Ṣūmālī, etc. were either publishing the
hagiologies Lewis 1994 speaks about or directly drawing upon them to write uncritical histories. As Lewis 1994 notes, the stories about Sheikh Isaaq's arrival from Arabia have the character of myths rather than of history
. Yet our article currently presents these stories as historical fact, which is of course due to the
historiographically uncritical nature of its sources. This is quite obviously also true for Zaylaʻī 2018 (#2), the title of whose book Somalia's Arabness and its Islamic Civilization clearly echoes Lewis 1994's words their real significance in Somali culture lies in the fact that they validate, in a traditional Somali idiom, the Muslim basis of Somali culture
.
There are two relevant Wikipedia policies here, the WP:UNDUE WEIGHT part of WP:NPOV and the WP:INDEPENDENT part of WP:RS. From the first perspective, the fact that sources are either directly contradicted or completely ignored by the world's foremost expert on the topic (and by other well-respected academic scholars) makes them wholly WP:UNDUE to cite. They are written from a very specific POV and agenda (validating the Arabic & Islamic basis of Somali culture) which is directly exposed and rejected by expert scholars in the field. The second problem is independence. All of these writers (and that also includes #3 Dubbe Ali Yare and #4 Maxamed Cabdi Daud) have very strong vested interests in their subject matter, and are writing specifically to promote a certain cultural and political point of view rather than to treat a subject in a dispassionate and academic way. That means that from Wikipedia's point of view, they are not reliable.
As a last point, I should also say that for every individual author which you've discussed above, my criticism of them lacking WP:WEIGHT and WP:INDEPENDENCE may be incorrect. The way for you to show that would be to point us to established academic scholarly sources (such as Ioan Lewis, but of course other well-respected scholars would qualify too) that cite them approvingly (thus establishing that they have due weight), or to show us in some other way that they do in fact have academic credentials (which would establish their independence). However, please do note that having academic credentials neither means that university libraries hold their books, nor that they are covered in magazines or websites like Wikipedia, nor even that they have a PhD or a position at some university, but rather that they are widely cited by respected scholars, or that they have published in highly reputable scholarly journals and/or with university presses or other well-respected academic publishers.
In the mean time, I suggest that we base the article on Ioan Lewis' works. That would reduce them to a stub, but I suspect that from the perspective of established Wikipedia policies this subject is not a candidate for much more than a stub.
☿
Apaugasma (
talk
☉)
10:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello @ Apaugasma:,
On page 62 of Studi sulla letteratura agiografica islamica somala in lingua araba it states:
"Nella città etiopica lo šayḫ Imad al Din, maestro nelle scienze teologiche e mistiche, era in punto di morte: ai suoi discepoli che gli chiedevano di indicare un successore, lo šayḫ Imad al Din fece il nome di Isḥāq. Quest'ultimo, che già aveva avuto miracolosamente notizia di questa investitura, si recò ad Harar dove fu sancita la sua successione al maestro locale"
Translated, it means:
"In the Ethiopian city [Harar] the šayḫ Imad al Din, a master in the theological and mystical sciences, was on the verge of death: to his disciples who asked him to indicate a successor, the šayḫ Imad al Din mentioned the name of Isḥāq. The latter, who had already miraculously received news of this investiture, went to Harar where his succession to the local master was sanctioned."
With "šayḫ" meaning " Sheikh". Being a disciple of and then succeeding a scholar would mean being a scholar by default.
Hope that clarifies it.
Many thanks, Dabaqabad ( talk) 22:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
1. You're right. His semi-legendary status certainly does not help either.
2. That is actually his words; he claims himself that two notable Arabic hagiographies that he quotes and that attribute this alleged lineage to Sheikh Ishaaq are "almost all the same". To quote the very page I cited:
"Tutte e due le fonti sono dunque concordi nel ricollegare lo sayh Ishaq alla discendenza di Husayn, secondo la linea dei 12 imam dello sciismo duodecimano, per tramite di un suo antenato di nome Yahya. Tra Ishaq e questo Yahya suo predecessore sono trascorse, sia per le Manaqib che per le Amgad 13 generazioni: anche i nomi dei singoli individui che separano Ishaq da Yahya sono quasi tutti gli stessi nelle due opere."
Translated it means:
"Both sources therefore agree in reconnecting the sayh Ishaq to the descendants of Husayn, according to the line of the 12 imams of Twelver Shiism, through his ancestor named Yahya. Between Ishaq and this Yahya, his predecessor, 13 generations have passed, both for the Manaqibs and for the Amgads: even the names of the individuals who separate Ishaq from Yahya are almost all the same in the two works."
Given the semi-legendary nature it would be a good idea for the language of the sentence you quoted to be slightly changed to reflect that, which I will do as well. Dabaqabad ( talk) 00:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
whether a source is primary or secondary depends on context; the fact that the reliable sources in this case are the ones who analyze them and are secondary to them, makes them primary) with regard to the lineage. However, it is not this (that Gori tells us that the primary sources agree on the lineage) that I doubted (and which I agree should be reflected in the text). It's rather that we are now saying that the primary sources agree on the lineage, citing Gori for that, and then follow that up by, "However, according to I.M. Lewis, etc.". But if Gori actually agrees with Lewis that the lineage is not likely to be genuine, that should rather be "However, according to scholars, etc." (and then we should also add a ref to Gori again at the end of that sentence, to the page where he expresses his view on this). Furthermore, in the following sentence, "which is covered by Alessandro Gori" again suggests that Gori himself somehow supports the historicity of that lineage: this should be "the lineage as given by the hagiologies is as follows" (or something along those lines).
unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability. Further, the passage should not be worded in any way that makes it appear to be contested.I think the explicit attribution and wording in our article does make it appear contested, which should not be the case if Gori and Lewis (and other major scholars) agree (remember, it is only their POVs which matter, not the ones of the hagiologies themselves). But this is all, perhaps, a minor point. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 11:17, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Hi guys, this is merely a misinformation to anyone who's searching somaliland, somalis in Somaliland are not arabs 197.231.201.226 ( talk) 09:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello Dabaqabad! You reverted [1] five edits by me, with the edit summary Unexplained removal; sources are reliable. I tried my best to explain in my edit summaries, but of course more space may be needed for a proper explanation. So here goes:
Sheikh Ishaaq belonged to the Banu Hashim subclan of the Quraysh and was a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, Prophet Mohammed's son in-law and Fatimah, his daughter, which is based on the following source: MENAFN. "Somaliland: History of Sheikh Isaaq Bin Ahmed Bin Muhammad (AL-HASHIMI)". menafn.com. Retrieved 2021-03-24. This is a newspaper article which cites no sources, and is not reliable in this context. If you insist it is reliable, we can take it to WP:RSN.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)Please discuss these sources one by one. As suggested, we can also go to
WP:RSN and/or
WP:NORN for specific sources. An alternative option is to ask for a
third opinion. Thanks!
☿
Apaugasma (
talk
☉)
19:03, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
مشكلة الحدود الصومالية - الإثيوبية ودور القوى الدولية فيها ٦٧..١٣٩٨هـ/٤٨..١٩٨٧م written by سليمان حاج عبدالله فارح, published by Saudi Arabia’s Umm Al Qura university, page ٢, الفصل التمهيدي. Link: [ [11]]
Dabaqabad ( talk) 23:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Wow Dabaqabad, that's a very thorough and interesting explanation!
Thanks for that.
You're clearly somewhat of an expert on this topic, and it's always good to see that someone takes an interest in pitifully neglected subjects such as this. However, as well-acquainted as you are with the subject, I think that your approach to sources at this moment is fundamentally incompatible with Wikipedia, and would need to change for you to contribute here in accordance with policy.
I will begin by quoting #5 above, Lewis 1994, pp. 103–104 (who is renowned internationally as the foremost scholar on Somali history and culture):
Similar traditions are conserved by the Isaaq in regard to their ancestor Sheikh Isaaq. His descendants trace their ancestor's pedigree to 'Ali, the son of Abuu Taalib, who married the Prophets's daughter Faatima. Stories similar to those which attach to Sheikh Daarood describe Sheikh Isaaq's arrival from Arabia at the ancient Somali port of Zeila in the northwest of the ex-Protectorate and near the border with Djibouti. [...] Again, as with Sheikh Daarood, there are a number of published hagiologies in Arabic which describe not only the Sheikhs's movements and life and works in Somaliland but also his peregrinations in Arabia before his arrival among the Somali. These works contain a mass of unlikely circumstantial detail and repeatedly insist on the validity of Sheikh Isaaq's pedigree, a feature which itself suggests that the genealogy is suspect. As in the case of Sheikh Daarood, the names in the Arabian sections of the genealogy are also unconvincing since they represent those current at the time of the Prophet rather than, as one would expect if the genealogies were historically genuine, medieval local Arab names. And although in this case there is little divergence between the dates recorded in the hagiologies and those conserved in oral tradition, there are again strong grounds for doubting the authenticity of the genealogical claims made. Thus it seems that the traditions surrounding the origins and advent from Arabia of Sheikh Daarood and Isaaq have the character of myths rather than of history even although there is every reason to believe that one aspect of Somaliland's long contact with Arabia has been the settlement over the centuries of parties of Arab immigrants. In this this respect the Daarood and Isaaq legends represent historical fact. But quite apart from this, their real significance in Somali culture lies in the fact that they validate, in a traditional Somali idiom, the Muslim basis of Somali culture.
Ref: Lewis, Ioan M. (1994). Blood and Bone: The Call of Kinship in Somali Society. Lawrencewill, NJ: The Red Sea Press. ISBN 0-932415-93-8.
This sums it all up, really. The late 19th-century/early 20th-century works by Sharīf Mubayd, Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad al-Ghurbānī, Sharīf Aydurus, Aḥmad ʿAbd Allah Rīrāsh al-Ṣūmālī, etc. were either publishing the
hagiologies Lewis 1994 speaks about or directly drawing upon them to write uncritical histories. As Lewis 1994 notes, the stories about Sheikh Isaaq's arrival from Arabia have the character of myths rather than of history
. Yet our article currently presents these stories as historical fact, which is of course due to the
historiographically uncritical nature of its sources. This is quite obviously also true for Zaylaʻī 2018 (#2), the title of whose book Somalia's Arabness and its Islamic Civilization clearly echoes Lewis 1994's words their real significance in Somali culture lies in the fact that they validate, in a traditional Somali idiom, the Muslim basis of Somali culture
.
There are two relevant Wikipedia policies here, the WP:UNDUE WEIGHT part of WP:NPOV and the WP:INDEPENDENT part of WP:RS. From the first perspective, the fact that sources are either directly contradicted or completely ignored by the world's foremost expert on the topic (and by other well-respected academic scholars) makes them wholly WP:UNDUE to cite. They are written from a very specific POV and agenda (validating the Arabic & Islamic basis of Somali culture) which is directly exposed and rejected by expert scholars in the field. The second problem is independence. All of these writers (and that also includes #3 Dubbe Ali Yare and #4 Maxamed Cabdi Daud) have very strong vested interests in their subject matter, and are writing specifically to promote a certain cultural and political point of view rather than to treat a subject in a dispassionate and academic way. That means that from Wikipedia's point of view, they are not reliable.
As a last point, I should also say that for every individual author which you've discussed above, my criticism of them lacking WP:WEIGHT and WP:INDEPENDENCE may be incorrect. The way for you to show that would be to point us to established academic scholarly sources (such as Ioan Lewis, but of course other well-respected scholars would qualify too) that cite them approvingly (thus establishing that they have due weight), or to show us in some other way that they do in fact have academic credentials (which would establish their independence). However, please do note that having academic credentials neither means that university libraries hold their books, nor that they are covered in magazines or websites like Wikipedia, nor even that they have a PhD or a position at some university, but rather that they are widely cited by respected scholars, or that they have published in highly reputable scholarly journals and/or with university presses or other well-respected academic publishers.
In the mean time, I suggest that we base the article on Ioan Lewis' works. That would reduce them to a stub, but I suspect that from the perspective of established Wikipedia policies this subject is not a candidate for much more than a stub.
☿
Apaugasma (
talk
☉)
10:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello @ Apaugasma:,
On page 62 of Studi sulla letteratura agiografica islamica somala in lingua araba it states:
"Nella città etiopica lo šayḫ Imad al Din, maestro nelle scienze teologiche e mistiche, era in punto di morte: ai suoi discepoli che gli chiedevano di indicare un successore, lo šayḫ Imad al Din fece il nome di Isḥāq. Quest'ultimo, che già aveva avuto miracolosamente notizia di questa investitura, si recò ad Harar dove fu sancita la sua successione al maestro locale"
Translated, it means:
"In the Ethiopian city [Harar] the šayḫ Imad al Din, a master in the theological and mystical sciences, was on the verge of death: to his disciples who asked him to indicate a successor, the šayḫ Imad al Din mentioned the name of Isḥāq. The latter, who had already miraculously received news of this investiture, went to Harar where his succession to the local master was sanctioned."
With "šayḫ" meaning " Sheikh". Being a disciple of and then succeeding a scholar would mean being a scholar by default.
Hope that clarifies it.
Many thanks, Dabaqabad ( talk) 22:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
1. You're right. His semi-legendary status certainly does not help either.
2. That is actually his words; he claims himself that two notable Arabic hagiographies that he quotes and that attribute this alleged lineage to Sheikh Ishaaq are "almost all the same". To quote the very page I cited:
"Tutte e due le fonti sono dunque concordi nel ricollegare lo sayh Ishaq alla discendenza di Husayn, secondo la linea dei 12 imam dello sciismo duodecimano, per tramite di un suo antenato di nome Yahya. Tra Ishaq e questo Yahya suo predecessore sono trascorse, sia per le Manaqib che per le Amgad 13 generazioni: anche i nomi dei singoli individui che separano Ishaq da Yahya sono quasi tutti gli stessi nelle due opere."
Translated it means:
"Both sources therefore agree in reconnecting the sayh Ishaq to the descendants of Husayn, according to the line of the 12 imams of Twelver Shiism, through his ancestor named Yahya. Between Ishaq and this Yahya, his predecessor, 13 generations have passed, both for the Manaqibs and for the Amgads: even the names of the individuals who separate Ishaq from Yahya are almost all the same in the two works."
Given the semi-legendary nature it would be a good idea for the language of the sentence you quoted to be slightly changed to reflect that, which I will do as well. Dabaqabad ( talk) 00:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
whether a source is primary or secondary depends on context; the fact that the reliable sources in this case are the ones who analyze them and are secondary to them, makes them primary) with regard to the lineage. However, it is not this (that Gori tells us that the primary sources agree on the lineage) that I doubted (and which I agree should be reflected in the text). It's rather that we are now saying that the primary sources agree on the lineage, citing Gori for that, and then follow that up by, "However, according to I.M. Lewis, etc.". But if Gori actually agrees with Lewis that the lineage is not likely to be genuine, that should rather be "However, according to scholars, etc." (and then we should also add a ref to Gori again at the end of that sentence, to the page where he expresses his view on this). Furthermore, in the following sentence, "which is covered by Alessandro Gori" again suggests that Gori himself somehow supports the historicity of that lineage: this should be "the lineage as given by the hagiologies is as follows" (or something along those lines).
unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability. Further, the passage should not be worded in any way that makes it appear to be contested.I think the explicit attribution and wording in our article does make it appear contested, which should not be the case if Gori and Lewis (and other major scholars) agree (remember, it is only their POVs which matter, not the ones of the hagiologies themselves). But this is all, perhaps, a minor point. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 11:17, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Hi guys, this is merely a misinformation to anyone who's searching somaliland, somalis in Somaliland are not arabs 197.231.201.226 ( talk) 09:31, 10 January 2022 (UTC)