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Aquib if you're going to insist that the citations used do not support the claim that "imposition of sharia has been accompanied by controversy, violence, etc." please provide concrete examples; I'm still not seeing how your objections are based on anything other than personal taste and perhaps some need for a little discreet pious fraud. I've already addressed your objections; you should provide concrete examples before you edit war. Jayzames ( talk) 00:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Aquib, although I think the reference to Orwell is a rather spectacular malapropism, as it's been you and not I who has been insisting on euphemisms and avoidance of the mentioning of unhappy facts, I do think the reference you're looking for in this case would be Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" or "The Prevention of Literature" rather than Animal Farm, although neither one are really going to support the point that you're trying to make, and in fact tend more to undermine what you're trying to say (e.g. "A totalitarian state is in effect a theocracy"). Politics and the English language isn't really about politics as much as it is just a general guide to good writing a la Strunk & White. Jayzames ( talk) 03:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Since Orwell isn't really a great reference for you in defense of any theocracy, I'm going to suggest this genuinely Islamically based critique of the UNDHR in a fatwa from Shaikh Muhammad Al-Munajid of Islam Q&A as a possible point of reference for you. This isn't meant to suggest that Al Munajid represents the definitive opinion of all Muslims, but I just want to show that religious grounds do indeed exist for "discrepancies" between sharia and the international consensus on human rights, and that you can criticize the UNDHR from an Islamic perspective. These are also not just the concerns of a single person, as the Organization of the Islamic Conference, which represents the Muslim nations of the world, was likewise sufficiently opposed to the UNDHR on sharia grounds to draft its own declaration. Other Muslims can of course disagree based on secular human rights considerations, and can deny that religion should play any role in the matter of human rights; Adama Dieng, a strong critic of the sharia based Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam is himself also Muslim.
Anyway, on to the fatwa:
Now while, this alim has expressed his views with considerable indigation, he has been kind enough to detail his views on why sharia cannot tolerate the UNDHR. Your objections, while similarly high on outrage, have been conspicuously short on the details of why my edits violate Wikipedia policy, are badly sourced, are misrepresented, etc. I would love to see (particularly in light of the foregoing) just precisely how I've been a "slanderous," and "misleading" perpetrator of a "detestable hack job." Jayzames ( talk) 04:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Aquib, again, please make the case on the talk page that the sources are low quality, contravene the claims made, and whatever else constitutes grounds for your reverts before edit warring. Since the sources are publicly available, you can freely access and quote the sources to show why they are problematic. Shukran! Jayzames ( talk) 15:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, technically, if you're asked for an explanation, you should provide it pursuant to WP:DE. I've made my specific explanations, you should provide yours as to why the sources are low quality and don't support the claims made, and use specific quotes. If you want you can file an RFC. Ashkurak! Jayzames ( talk) 16:10, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
AGAIN, please present your specific objections on the talk page. The sources are public and quotable. Presenting your claims on the talk page will make a better case for you if an RFC or some other proceeding is commenced. I'll be explaining the citations again soon. Shukran! Jayzames ( talk) 00:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
This is not a complete list of problems, but it is a start.
1. It is apparently true, in some cases, that a) imposition of Sharia has led to controversy, violence, and possibly war. It is also true b) Sharia differs in some elements from the principles embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It does not necessarily follow that c) the imposition of Sharia has led to unrest because it varies from the UDHR or employs punishments either corporal or capital in nature. Perhaps c) is correct, but there are no citations to this effect. a+b does not prove c in this case. This is a critical distinction.
2. Heaping 5 or 10 citations on a proven point will not make other points around it more true. If it is true there is unrest during "imposition" of Sharia due to variance with UDHR or stoning, no quantity of citations can be provided regarding other points, such as controversy or violence is caused by Sharia, that will prove why it is caused. If the unrest is caused by variance with UDHR, we will need citations to that effect.
3. There are citations that have been repeatedly placed in the lead that are nothing more than text. They are editorials that have no link or citation associated with them.
4. There are citations that have been placed in this text that link back to the paragraph they cite.
5. There are citations in the text that quote text, but if you follow the link it will take you to an article on the organization purported to have made the statement, rather than the statement itself.
6. There is text imbedded in some of these citations that is not contained in the the link that goes with them. Failed verification.
7. The quality of these citations is extremely poor. Rather than improving the citations or eliminating the ones with errors, more are simply added.
8. The new citations are for points already proven, no citations are provided for the points which have no citations.
9. The volume of citations, and the accompanying text, cloud the paragraph so completely it is difficult to find the places where it should be flagged. It is a dense fog of text.
10. Any point in the paragraph which may be subject to dispute (in this case there are many) should be sourced with one or two high quality references. No more than 2 should be necessary. I have repeatedly pointed out where citations are needed, but none have been forthcoming.
11. Citations should appear directly following the point they support. You cannot place a citation at the beginning of the paragraph and expect it to cover every assertion in the paragraph.
12. The best quality sources come from University presses. Reputable news organizations are useful for current events, but those links are not guaranteed to remain. The controversy over Sharia is topical, but it is not new. There are many good books out on the subject.
13. Page numbers. One should not be expected to read a book in order to verify a source.
These are a few of the problems I have with the paragraph as it generally appears on an ongoing basis. Later the obvious questions of what imposition means, how imposition occurs, whether it is imposition when the majority favors it, what other outcomes there are besides unrest, the relative importance of the method of execution (capital punishment is after all somewhat lethal regardless of the method employed), how imposition differs from introduction, whether Muslims around the world are really trying to introduce Sharia or just their Sharia codes of family law, which Sharia is being introduced, whether Christians and Animists in Nigeria and Sudan are being stoned and caned or just required to dress modestly and close their liquor shops etc. This topic area is way too big for the introduction of the article, and any attempt to take it all in with sweeping generalizations, poorly sourced references and spam is going to be met with criticism.
Aquib ( talk) 21:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Attempts to impose Sharia have been accompanied by controversy,[2][3][4][5] violence,[6][7][8][9][10][11] and even warfare (cf. Second Sudanese Civil War) [12][not in citation given]
[13][14]due to discrepancies between Sharia and international concepts[15] of human rights (particularly [weasel words] with respect to the rights of women and non-Muslims)[citation needed][16][citation needed] that have resulted in various infringements on those rights[citation needed]. Contested [by whom?] aspects of
Sharia include the canonical hudud punishments (e.g. amputation, stoning, and lashing.[citation needed] Sharia's prohibitions on blasphemy and apostasy also depart from internationally recognized concepts of religious freedom.[citation needed] The OIC nations have thus released their own Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam that are in accordance with their interpretation of Sharia.
“ | Introduction (or reintroduction) of Sharia is a longstanding goal for Islamist movements in Muslim countries, and (to a much more limited degree) for Muslim minorities in non-Muslim countries. Some Muslim minorities in Asia (e.g. India) have attained institutional recognition of Sharia to adjudicate their personal and community affairs. In Western countries, where Muslim immigration is more recent, Muslim minorities have introduced Sharia with varying degrees of success (e.g. Britain's Muslim Arbitration Tribunal). | ” |
“ | This implies Muslims in the West are trying to bring about Sharia law in their countries. Possibly, but only in family courts. Needs clarity | ” |
I'm not sure you're making a coherent point here, by "in their countries," I assume you mean their non-Muslim countries of residence rather than their Muslim countries of origin or ancestry (for immigrants). Of course they're trying to bring about sharia law in their countries, to a much more limited degree. It said so quite clearly, and stated that Muslims have "attained institutional recognition of Sharia to adjudicate their personal and community affairs" in for example India. Nobody in their right mind is actually going to believe that they will ever start chopping off hands in a non-Muslim Western country like Britain or Canada just because they have a population of Muslim immigrants.
“ | There appears to be a link to an LOC article on Sharia in here, but when you click, it takes you to WIKI LOC article, not Sharia article | ” |
What? This is why I keep telling you to use the talk page.
“ | Attempts to impose Sharia have been accompanied by controversy,[2][3][4][5] violence,[6][7][8][9][10][11] and even warfare (cf. Second Sudanese Civil War) [12][13][14][15] due to discrepancies between Sharia and international concepts[16] of human rights (particularly with respect to the rights of women and non-Muslims)[17] that have resulted in various infringements on those rights. | ” |
“ | I have yet to see a citation that says the war is over discrepancies w/ UDHR. UDHR does not assert a right to liquor, extramarital sex or obscenity.) | ” |
I've already explained that they are disputing sharia for human rights, of which the UNDHR is only a reference document in international law. Let's not be disingenuous here. Islamic law does not assign equal status to non-Muslim minorities or women, and even with promises "not to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims," has imposed gender segregation that has affected non-Muslims as much as Muslims, has (in Nigeria) required non-Muslims to take religious classes in Islam etc., prohibits non-Muslims from engaging in proselytization while actively encouraging Muslim proselytization, etc etc. Non-Muslims in Sudan have not necessarily been spared from hudud punishments, not to mention the revival of that old sharia institution, the enslavement of captives. Are you going to be so ridiculous as to assert that the southern Sudanese are fighting for their right to liquor, extramarital sex, and obscenity?
“ | "This assertion re human rights violations as the root cause requires citations from accessible scholarly works, pref univ presses, with page numbers."' | ” |
The imposition of Islamic law is one of the root causes, namely since it does not assign equal rights to women and non-Muslims, which in the reality based community would fall under the category of "human rights," and regarding which a reference in international law can be found in Article 2 of the UNDHR, "Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status." You're rather desperately splitting hairs here.
“ | Contested aspects of Sharia include the canonical hudud punishments (e.g. amputation, stoning, and lashing). | ” |
“ | This sentence requires proper citation as to who is contesting and in what respect. Is this in regard to cause of war and violence, or western criticism? | ” |
In what alternate universe do you think people are not going to contest amputation, stoning, and lashing, and why do you need explanation as to why some people, in fact quite a lot of people will object to this, whether it happens to them personally, or whether, out of their common humanity, it happens to other people?
I think, in the reality based community "The factors that provoked the military coup, primarily the closely intertwined issues of Islamic law and of the civil war in the south, remained unresolved in 1991. The September 1983 implementation of the sharia throughout the country had been controversial and provoked widespread resistance in the predominantly non-Muslim south ... Opposition to the sharia, especially to the application of hudud (sing., hadd), or Islamic penalties, such as the public amputation of hands for theft, was not confined to the south and had been a principal factor leading to the popular uprising of April 1985 that overthrew the government of Jaafar an Nimeiri" is more than sufficient to establish that "imposition of sharia," particularly the imposition of hudud punishments, is "accompanied by warfare."
“ | Sharia's prohibitions on blasphemy and apostasy also depart from internationally recognized concepts of religious freedom. | ” |
“ | "Citation please. Again, please provide citations." | ” |
You already know perfectly that sharia does not allow blasphemy and apostasy, so this is just petty and bad faith. Since you've insisted, however, and since I left my book of Islamic criminal jurisprudence in a box somewhere, I'll use a source that we both know:
Reliance of the Traveler:
For Muslims: 8.0 APOSTASY FROM ISLAM (RIDDA) (page 595) o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed. o8.3 If he is a freeman, no one besides the caliph or his representative may kill him. If someone else kills him, the killer is disciplined (def: o17) (O: for arrogating the caliph’s prerogative and encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties). o8.4 There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (O: or any expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die)
....
@O8.7: Acts that Entail Leaving Islam (O: Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam (may Allah protect us from them) are: -1- to prostrate to an idol, whether sarcastically, out of mere contrariness, or in actual conviction, like that of someone who believes the Creator to be something that has originated in time. Like idols in this respect are the sun or moon, and like prostration is bowing to other than Allah, if one intends reverence towards it like the reverence due to Allah; -2- to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future. And like this intention is hesitating whether to do so or not: one thereby immediately commits unbelief; -3- to speak words that imply unbelief such as ``Allah is the third of three, or ``I am Allah-unless one's tongue has run away with one, or one is quoting another, or is one of the friends of Allah Most High (wali, def: w33) in a spiritually intoxicated state of total oblivion (A: friend of Allah or not, someone totally oblivious is as if insane, and is not held legally responsible (dis: k13.1(O:) ) ), for these latter do not entail unbelief; -4- to revile Allah or His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace); -5- to deny the existence of Allah, His beginingless eternality, His endless eternality, or to deny any of His attributes which the consensus of Muslims ascribes to Him (dis: v1); -6- to be sarcastic about Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat; -7- to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus (def: b7) belongs to it, or to add a verse that does belong to it; -8-to mockingly say, ``I don't know what faith is; -9- to reply to someone who says, ``There is no power or strength save through Allah; ``Your saying `There's no power or strength, etc,' won't save you from hunger; -10- for a tyrant, after an oppressed person says, ``This is through the decree of Allah, to reply, ``I act without the decree of Allah; ... (n: `Ala' al-din' Abidin adds the following: -16- to revile the religion of Islam; -17- to believe that things in themselves or by their own nature have any causal influence independent of the will of Allah; -18- to deny the existence of angels or jinn (def: w22), or the heavens; -19-to be sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law; There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless. May Allah Most High save us and all Muslims from it.)
For a non-Muslim
@O11.9 If non-Muslim subjects of the Islamic state refuse to conform to the rules of Islam, or to pay the non-Muslim poll tax, then their agreement with the state has been violated (dis: o11.11) (A: though if only one of them disobeys, it concerns him alone). @O11.10 The agreement is also violated (A: with respect to the offender alone) if the state has stipulated that any of the following things break it, and one of the subjects does so anyway, though if the state has not stipulated that these break the agreement, then they do not; namely, if one of the subject people: -1- commits adultery with a Muslim woman or marries her; -2- conceals spies of hostile forces; -3- leads a Muslim away from Islam; -4- kills a Muslim; -5- or mentions something impermissible about Allah, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), or Islam When a subject's agreement with the state has been violated, the caliph chooses between the four alternatives mentioned above in connection with prisoners of war
But really you already know this and are just pettifogging.
“ | The OIC nations have thus released their own Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam that are in accordance with their interpretation of Sharia. | ” |
“ | Pointless as the context has not been established. | ” |
This shows that the OIC, the official organ for the Muslim nations of the world, has objections to "human rights" as set forth in the UNDHR, and that sharia constitutes the basis of these objections. What are you talking about here?
“ | within constitutional bounds, does not the majority impose its will in a democracy? If so, is this truly imposition or implementation? | ” |
What's the objection to the word "impose"? It's no different than imposing taxes, or some other obligation, which sharia is.
“ | Citations are improving, but the most important ones are still missing. Is the unrest due solely to human rights abuses, or is it more complicated | ” |
The citations are exactly the same.
Nowhere do I make the exceptional claim that imposition of sharia and the accompanying human rights violations is the sole source of unrest or warfare or whatever problems exist, just the rather modest and mundane claim that "imposition of sharia has been accompanied by controversy, violence, and warfare," a fact that is pretty well documented. The real problem for you isn't that this is is not true, or trivial, or irrelevant, the problem is that it detracts from the article's missionary value. Jayzames ( talk) 02:24, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I have been trying to fix the sharia article after one user, "Jagged 85" introduced a great deal of questionable material into this and many other articles, check here to see what it used to look like. I think the user in question may now be the subject of a sock puppet investigation. Anyway, I've since then been trying to clean up and improve the spaminated law articles (mostly the Sharia article), with varying degrees of success. Another user, Aquib american muslim has objected to my changes, and has deleted material I wrote which he found "controversial," on grounds that controversial material should not be in the lead. Some time later, after reading Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section) which states that: "The lead should ... define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies," I reinserted this material (fourth paragraph of the Sharia article), and he has again started to redelete, this time claiming that the material is uncited, poorly cited, misleading, misrepresentation of sources, etc. (along with some more comments about how I had perpetrated a "detestable hack job" etc.) I've asked him repeatedly to quote and point out specifically what is wrong with the sources on the talk page, and he has not yet done so, though I specifically used publicly available sources just for this reason, and have addressed his objections as much as was possible on the talk page.
Aquib has also objected to my removing the material found problematic as per the foregoing RFC for Jagged 85; which he believes is "from first-class minds in this area of knowledge."
To put it more succinctly, the issue at hand is whether "controversial" material should be put in the lead, and whether the material is supported by the citations used.
The contested paragraph is the fourth paragraph here as Aqiib has deleted it again,
I'm not really interested in protecting the page or blocking users (including getting myself blocked) but the constant reverts are a distraction. Jayzames ( talk) 02:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I first challenged this paragraph in April for it's lack of citations. It remained in place for several weeks, with no changes. When I began taking it down, citations were added for the first three assertions it makes. At first, the quality of these citations was very poor, but they have improved somewhat. However, this paragraph still has multiple problems, which I have identified in detail on numerous occasions, both on the talk page and by marking up the paragraph and summarizing each markup.
The first sentence of the paragraph begins by asserting imposition of Sharia has caused controversy, violence and even war. These three assertions (controversy, violence and war) have citations, although I question the use of the term imposition due to it's connotations.
Beyond this point, there are NO further citations in the paragraph supporting any other claims the paragraph makes. After these first three cited assertions, the first sentence goes on to claim Sharia has caused these tragedies "DUE TO DISCREPANCIES between Sharia and international concepts[16] of human rights." This claim requires scholarly citations from university presses, as do the remainder of the UNCITED CLAIMS the paragraph makes.
I am not saying these claims are true or false. I am saying they are uncited. Let me suggest an analogy for purposes of illustration. The "War Against Drugs" has also caused controversy, violence and even warfare. In fact, it is hard to imagine any issue causing a war without causing controversy and violence. But what is this DUE TO? Is it due to the huge profits to be made selling illegal drugs? Is it due to poverty and other conditions? Is it due to the fact the US is trying to stop illegal drugs while simultaneously buying everything available on the illegal market? I don't know the answer, but I may have opinions. But whoever claims to know what this war is DUE TO should provide some CITATIONS to back up their claim.
I have been waiting for citations for some time now. I do not understand why there are no citations for these claims, unless they are unsupportable. If this is all clear and factual, let's see some citations for the rest of the claims made by this controversial paragraph inserted into the lead of this article.
Aquib ( talk) 12:32, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The adoption of Sharia law by predominantly Muslim states has caused international controversy due to discrepancies between Sharia and international concepts of human rights. In particular, canonical hudud punishments such as lashing, amputation, and stoning do not conform to established European and American ideals about the treatment of citizens, and the restrictions on rights given to women and non-Muslims opposes standards of equality and religious freedom held in the West. The OIC nations have released a separate declaration on Human Rights that better fits the interpretation of Sharia law. The adoption of Sharia has also led to violence in several states, particularly where large segments of the population are non-Muslim or practice less restrictive forms of Islam.
I have too much work today so I can't get into this into too much detail, but please point out what is wrong with the sources? AFAIC, they are good, and certainly a lot better and more easily verified than what used to be in here, which you can see here. You can also check here and here for what some of the issues in the original article were like and why the user who made these edits might have been problematic.
I think it hardly needs explaining that in the late 20th and 21st century, a system of law that demands amputation and stoning as penalties, and that imposes capital punishment for apostasy and blasphemy might be "controversial," and might be even resisted violently. It's not an exceptional claim at all, a rather modest one at that, and there is no synthesis. The controversy, if you check the sources cited, is real. The violence and the threat of violence, likewise, is real. Every prominent person who has publicly apostatized or blasphemed, including figures like
Ayaan Hirsi Ali or
Salman Rushdie requires a contingent of bodyguards. Even Dutch Labour politician
Ahmed Aboutaleb, who is a practicing Muslim and not an apostate, also requires a contingent of full time bodyguards. Where are you getting "synthesis" from this? I think the best test as to whether this satisfies verifiability is the thought experiment of going to a sharia country, maybe Afghanistan or Iran or Sudan or Saudi Arabia or Somalia, and doing something like openly preaching the gospel or committing adultery in front of four Muslim male witnesses, and then seeing what happens to you. If you believe that you can come back safe and sound then we can remove these claims in good faith.
Second, as far as "who" resists the imposition of sharia, it varies depending on what country it is, and can encompass a wide array of constituencies, including non-Muslims, women's groups, and liberal Muslims, and the sources attempt to convey some of the diversity of that opposition, which included a Muslim womens' groups. Since it is "controversial" with a broad and varied range of people, there is nothing wrong with saying it is "controversial," anymore than saying the right to abortion is "controversial."
Finally, no sharia is not the same in every case, but I think the sources adequately show that certain aspects, including
hudud punishments and apostasy laws, are part of sharia in a fairly wide range of countries, and that when Islamists come to power and promise to impose sharia, that this is in fact what you will get. If you believe that
hudud punishments or apostasy laws are really a marginal aspect of sharia advocated by a tiny extremist minority of those wanting to implement sharia, you're mistaken, and I think the sources used show that. There are places, Canada and England for example, where hudud punishments are totally out of the question and the social outrage would be severe, and these are the places where activists are much more modestly asking for sharia only to adjudicate personal matters, which is also stated. Let's not be ridiculous about sharia and pretend that they will be handing out candy and flowers once it's imposed.
Jayzames (
talk)
02:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Attempts to impose Sharia have been accompanied by controversy,[2][3][4][5] violence,[6][7][8][9][10][11] and even warfare (cf. Second Sudanese Civil War) [12][13][14][15] due to discrepancies between Sharia and international concepts[16] of human rights (particularly with respect to the rights of women and non-Muslims)[17] that have resulted in various infringements on those rights. Contested aspects of Sharia include the canonical hudud punishments (e.g. amputation, stoning, and lashing). Sharia's prohibitions on blasphemy and apostasy also depart from internationally recognized concepts of religious freedom. The OIC nations have thus released their own Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam that are in accordance with their interpretation of Sharia.
Uh, what? How does use of the term Islamist or Allah (SWT) compromise neutrality, as we are talking about Islamic law? And where are you getting "anti-immigrant" from, I've been an immigrant to a few countries myself (including two Muslim ones) myself. We're talking about the basic law here, which clearly says "the hands of thieves are to be cut off," you don't seem to get why some might object to having this rendered official. I know the rules of evidence, and I know perfectly well that what happens in reality, both in premodern Muslim states and now, can differ quite substantially, both for better and for worse, from what's on paper (it was generally actually worse than official sharia in some respects during premodern Ottoman and Abbasid times due to less regulated and transparent institutions like the shurta, or police, and mazalim, or temporal courts gradually encroaching on the authority of the qadi). It's also not just narrow minded people that have been opposed to the introduction of sharia tribunals in Western countries, I know Tarek Fatah, a liberal Muslim in Canada, has been vehemently opposed to this, as well as the Muslim Canadian Congress, and there could hardly be a group called Muslims Against Sharia if opposition to sharia was strictly on racist grounds. I'd be interested in seeing you find something to show that drastic corporal punishments like mutilation continued into the 1960's or that the US executed children; I think you're getting into tin foil hat territory, and none of this is even relevant to whether sharia and human rights differ from each other or whether controversy ensues when it's imposed, claims that I think the evidence makes it difficult to disprove. The basic law has been quoted from the sources, delineating specifically what the punishments are (irrespective of how often they are implemented in practice), if you think those punishments do not contravene human rights, I'd like to hear how. How did this become a diatribe about the US criminal justice system? I wouldn't for one, object at all to saying that the US criminal justice system is controversial, that's just stating the obvious, the same goes for Islamic law. If you're so confident about the soundness of Islamic law to protect your human rights, again please visit a nice sharia country and preach atheism. Jayzames ( talk) 08:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
BTW, the reference regarding the
Binding of Isaac is to show that God is to be obeyed, full stop. I don't know where you're getting the idea that God simply told Abraham to break the law, if he wanted to do that he could have told Abraham to commit adultery instead. It is a test of faith, that God's order is to be obeyed no matter if you find the order irrational or cruel, and the same reasoning goes for sharia and its punishments, no matter if some parts of it may seem, by modern standards, cruel. I also used the name Ibrahim (AS) because the Muslim version of the story is different and involves a different son, I don't know what you're trying to imply about the use of the terms Allah or Islamist.
Jayzames (
talk)
09:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, with respect to the strange little diversion as to use of capital punishment by country, you can see here that of the top 10 executors of capital punishment in 2009, seven were Muslim, though really I don't think this sort of tu quoque argument is germane to the issue either way. Jayzames ( talk) 09:22, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Also one more technicality, since Abraham precedes Moses, who brought down the Mosaic law from the mountain, he precedes the formalization of Jewish law, and really couldn't be breaking the law, as there was not yet any set of laws to break. Jayzames ( talk) 09:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry but.. "when Christian countries have shown equal brutality" is pretty much the standard version of tu quoque. US treatment of POWs isn't even remotely relevant to sharia and its criminal penalties, treatment of minorities or women, and punishments for apostates. There is surely an article about Guantanamo or US treatment of POWS on Wikipedia, and that belongs there. Whether or not the US does this or that doesn't make the plain fact of the marked divergence between sharia and international human rights law any less true or relevant. The famous punishments are both on the books, and enforced, making them more than a historical curiosity. As far as the US executing a higher percentage of its prisoners per capita, I don't think even that claim stands up either "sharia" countries like Kuwait or Oman notably rank higher than the US, the ones that don't, like Sudan and Somalia, may not be together enough to even keep adequate records. Doesn't really affect sharia's standing vis a vis human rights either way. FWIW, I personally would prefer that no prisoner be executed.
Any legal system (or actually any lack of a legal system) can be brutal, but how many other legal systems still prescribe amputation? How would you "properly implement" this "basic law" so it doesn't lead to the unpleasant consequence?
From "Crimes and Punishments under Islamic Law"
The punishment for theft is prescribed in the Holy Qur'an thus: "As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands as punishment by way of example from Allah for their crime. And Allah is exalted in power." As reported in Sahih al Bukhari and Muslim this punishment (of cutting the hand) was practised by the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) Himself. He cut off a thief's hand and also ordered the amputation of a female thief's hand."
The four major schools of Sunni Islamic law all agree that the right hand comes off first, the Hanafi school differs in that the next theft requires the amputation of the left foot, the other schools differ in demanding the left hand; all agree that the punishment is amputation, and this is mainstream orthodoxy in sharia. You're way off the mark about "many Islamic scholars," I've never heard of the Assembly of Qom (being more familiar with the Sunni majority), but
the usual punishments still go on in Iran.
And finally, the last little attempt at a "neocon" smear (now that is a genuinely inflammatory word, at least among my circle) is really some remarkably strenuous projecting. I've lived among Muslims (granted very progressive and secular ones) and no I don't consider Islam to be a threat to the West, an allegation which is doubly absurd because I don't live there or feel terribly invested in its survival. You've confused me with whoever you've gotten into arguments with before. The fact that "Islamist" is a word used by David Horowitz or Daniel Pipes hardly makes it automatically an ad hominem, it's quite liberally used by Bassam Tibi too, an Arab Muslim and thinker on the Arab left, who got his training at the Frankfurt School under the direct tutelage of Theodore Adorno and Max Horkheimer themselves. A more celebrated neo Marxist pedigree hardly exists in the academic world. In short, no, use of the word "Islamist" does not automatically make one a neocon.
Jayzames (
talk)
18:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Come on, that might offend people - both Muslims and homosexuals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.2.241 ( talk) 15:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I have taken an interest in the subject of Dhimmitude and the dhimma contract, and moved Hodgson's and Glenn's material on this subject into a new article - "History of the dhimma." I need additional sources.
I believe we have the "Sharia and non-Muslims" subject covered well enough - for now - with what remains here in Sharia. I plan to remove the last portion of the last remaining paragraph in the "non-Muslim" section of the Sharia article. The remaining 2 sentences can be incorporated as the last sentence of the prior paragraph. When that change is accomplished, the last paragraph of "non-Muslims" will appear as below. Suggestions and comments are appreciated. Regards, Aquib ( talk) 22:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Pagans are not afforded the rights and protections of the dhimma contract. Nevertheless, according to the Quran and classic Sharia, no person can be compelled to convert to Islam - regardless of their religion or lack of religion. Sharia attributes different legal rights to these different groups; in practice, this consists of less rights for non-Muslims.[191] Aquib ( talk) 22:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
I would like to reorganize the sections near the end of the article. We have civil law as a subcat of common law, a law parallels section plus a separate law comparisons section, modern topical info under comparisons etc. In addition, some of the categories have been emptied out. It needs cleaning up and reorganizing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquib american muslim ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, the reference recently cited in support of the claim that Hindus are regarded as a people of the book does not support it. The relevent text from the reference is:
Footnote 249 cites another source, as follows:
It's not at all clear to me precisely what the parenthetical comment "and hindus are assimilated to them" here means. Presumably, it means at least that Hindus have been accorded the same, or similar, legal status as Jews and Christians, but I see no reason to conclude that H. Patrick Glenn, the author of the reference, meant to assert that they were also referred to as a "people of the book".
Moreover, it would appear from another of the references cited in the article, Bernard Lewis's The Jews of Islam, that the extension of special status to Hindus was a later development which was not observed immediately after the initial expansion of Islam. On p.18 of this reference Lewis writes:
A little further on, on p.20 he writes:
Thus, even if it is possible to find a good reference which unequivocally supports the claim that Muslims now regard Hindus as one of the peoples of the book, the article should not give the impression, as it currently does, that this has always been the case.
David Wilson (
talk ·
cont)
09:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Aquib if you're going to insist that the citations used do not support the claim that "imposition of sharia has been accompanied by controversy, violence, etc." please provide concrete examples; I'm still not seeing how your objections are based on anything other than personal taste and perhaps some need for a little discreet pious fraud. I've already addressed your objections; you should provide concrete examples before you edit war. Jayzames ( talk) 00:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Aquib, although I think the reference to Orwell is a rather spectacular malapropism, as it's been you and not I who has been insisting on euphemisms and avoidance of the mentioning of unhappy facts, I do think the reference you're looking for in this case would be Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" or "The Prevention of Literature" rather than Animal Farm, although neither one are really going to support the point that you're trying to make, and in fact tend more to undermine what you're trying to say (e.g. "A totalitarian state is in effect a theocracy"). Politics and the English language isn't really about politics as much as it is just a general guide to good writing a la Strunk & White. Jayzames ( talk) 03:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Since Orwell isn't really a great reference for you in defense of any theocracy, I'm going to suggest this genuinely Islamically based critique of the UNDHR in a fatwa from Shaikh Muhammad Al-Munajid of Islam Q&A as a possible point of reference for you. This isn't meant to suggest that Al Munajid represents the definitive opinion of all Muslims, but I just want to show that religious grounds do indeed exist for "discrepancies" between sharia and the international consensus on human rights, and that you can criticize the UNDHR from an Islamic perspective. These are also not just the concerns of a single person, as the Organization of the Islamic Conference, which represents the Muslim nations of the world, was likewise sufficiently opposed to the UNDHR on sharia grounds to draft its own declaration. Other Muslims can of course disagree based on secular human rights considerations, and can deny that religion should play any role in the matter of human rights; Adama Dieng, a strong critic of the sharia based Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam is himself also Muslim.
Anyway, on to the fatwa:
Now while, this alim has expressed his views with considerable indigation, he has been kind enough to detail his views on why sharia cannot tolerate the UNDHR. Your objections, while similarly high on outrage, have been conspicuously short on the details of why my edits violate Wikipedia policy, are badly sourced, are misrepresented, etc. I would love to see (particularly in light of the foregoing) just precisely how I've been a "slanderous," and "misleading" perpetrator of a "detestable hack job." Jayzames ( talk) 04:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Aquib, again, please make the case on the talk page that the sources are low quality, contravene the claims made, and whatever else constitutes grounds for your reverts before edit warring. Since the sources are publicly available, you can freely access and quote the sources to show why they are problematic. Shukran! Jayzames ( talk) 15:51, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, technically, if you're asked for an explanation, you should provide it pursuant to WP:DE. I've made my specific explanations, you should provide yours as to why the sources are low quality and don't support the claims made, and use specific quotes. If you want you can file an RFC. Ashkurak! Jayzames ( talk) 16:10, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
AGAIN, please present your specific objections on the talk page. The sources are public and quotable. Presenting your claims on the talk page will make a better case for you if an RFC or some other proceeding is commenced. I'll be explaining the citations again soon. Shukran! Jayzames ( talk) 00:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
This is not a complete list of problems, but it is a start.
1. It is apparently true, in some cases, that a) imposition of Sharia has led to controversy, violence, and possibly war. It is also true b) Sharia differs in some elements from the principles embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It does not necessarily follow that c) the imposition of Sharia has led to unrest because it varies from the UDHR or employs punishments either corporal or capital in nature. Perhaps c) is correct, but there are no citations to this effect. a+b does not prove c in this case. This is a critical distinction.
2. Heaping 5 or 10 citations on a proven point will not make other points around it more true. If it is true there is unrest during "imposition" of Sharia due to variance with UDHR or stoning, no quantity of citations can be provided regarding other points, such as controversy or violence is caused by Sharia, that will prove why it is caused. If the unrest is caused by variance with UDHR, we will need citations to that effect.
3. There are citations that have been repeatedly placed in the lead that are nothing more than text. They are editorials that have no link or citation associated with them.
4. There are citations that have been placed in this text that link back to the paragraph they cite.
5. There are citations in the text that quote text, but if you follow the link it will take you to an article on the organization purported to have made the statement, rather than the statement itself.
6. There is text imbedded in some of these citations that is not contained in the the link that goes with them. Failed verification.
7. The quality of these citations is extremely poor. Rather than improving the citations or eliminating the ones with errors, more are simply added.
8. The new citations are for points already proven, no citations are provided for the points which have no citations.
9. The volume of citations, and the accompanying text, cloud the paragraph so completely it is difficult to find the places where it should be flagged. It is a dense fog of text.
10. Any point in the paragraph which may be subject to dispute (in this case there are many) should be sourced with one or two high quality references. No more than 2 should be necessary. I have repeatedly pointed out where citations are needed, but none have been forthcoming.
11. Citations should appear directly following the point they support. You cannot place a citation at the beginning of the paragraph and expect it to cover every assertion in the paragraph.
12. The best quality sources come from University presses. Reputable news organizations are useful for current events, but those links are not guaranteed to remain. The controversy over Sharia is topical, but it is not new. There are many good books out on the subject.
13. Page numbers. One should not be expected to read a book in order to verify a source.
These are a few of the problems I have with the paragraph as it generally appears on an ongoing basis. Later the obvious questions of what imposition means, how imposition occurs, whether it is imposition when the majority favors it, what other outcomes there are besides unrest, the relative importance of the method of execution (capital punishment is after all somewhat lethal regardless of the method employed), how imposition differs from introduction, whether Muslims around the world are really trying to introduce Sharia or just their Sharia codes of family law, which Sharia is being introduced, whether Christians and Animists in Nigeria and Sudan are being stoned and caned or just required to dress modestly and close their liquor shops etc. This topic area is way too big for the introduction of the article, and any attempt to take it all in with sweeping generalizations, poorly sourced references and spam is going to be met with criticism.
Aquib ( talk) 21:34, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Attempts to impose Sharia have been accompanied by controversy,[2][3][4][5] violence,[6][7][8][9][10][11] and even warfare (cf. Second Sudanese Civil War) [12][not in citation given]
[13][14]due to discrepancies between Sharia and international concepts[15] of human rights (particularly [weasel words] with respect to the rights of women and non-Muslims)[citation needed][16][citation needed] that have resulted in various infringements on those rights[citation needed]. Contested [by whom?] aspects of
Sharia include the canonical hudud punishments (e.g. amputation, stoning, and lashing.[citation needed] Sharia's prohibitions on blasphemy and apostasy also depart from internationally recognized concepts of religious freedom.[citation needed] The OIC nations have thus released their own Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam that are in accordance with their interpretation of Sharia.
“ | Introduction (or reintroduction) of Sharia is a longstanding goal for Islamist movements in Muslim countries, and (to a much more limited degree) for Muslim minorities in non-Muslim countries. Some Muslim minorities in Asia (e.g. India) have attained institutional recognition of Sharia to adjudicate their personal and community affairs. In Western countries, where Muslim immigration is more recent, Muslim minorities have introduced Sharia with varying degrees of success (e.g. Britain's Muslim Arbitration Tribunal). | ” |
“ | This implies Muslims in the West are trying to bring about Sharia law in their countries. Possibly, but only in family courts. Needs clarity | ” |
I'm not sure you're making a coherent point here, by "in their countries," I assume you mean their non-Muslim countries of residence rather than their Muslim countries of origin or ancestry (for immigrants). Of course they're trying to bring about sharia law in their countries, to a much more limited degree. It said so quite clearly, and stated that Muslims have "attained institutional recognition of Sharia to adjudicate their personal and community affairs" in for example India. Nobody in their right mind is actually going to believe that they will ever start chopping off hands in a non-Muslim Western country like Britain or Canada just because they have a population of Muslim immigrants.
“ | There appears to be a link to an LOC article on Sharia in here, but when you click, it takes you to WIKI LOC article, not Sharia article | ” |
What? This is why I keep telling you to use the talk page.
“ | Attempts to impose Sharia have been accompanied by controversy,[2][3][4][5] violence,[6][7][8][9][10][11] and even warfare (cf. Second Sudanese Civil War) [12][13][14][15] due to discrepancies between Sharia and international concepts[16] of human rights (particularly with respect to the rights of women and non-Muslims)[17] that have resulted in various infringements on those rights. | ” |
“ | I have yet to see a citation that says the war is over discrepancies w/ UDHR. UDHR does not assert a right to liquor, extramarital sex or obscenity.) | ” |
I've already explained that they are disputing sharia for human rights, of which the UNDHR is only a reference document in international law. Let's not be disingenuous here. Islamic law does not assign equal status to non-Muslim minorities or women, and even with promises "not to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims," has imposed gender segregation that has affected non-Muslims as much as Muslims, has (in Nigeria) required non-Muslims to take religious classes in Islam etc., prohibits non-Muslims from engaging in proselytization while actively encouraging Muslim proselytization, etc etc. Non-Muslims in Sudan have not necessarily been spared from hudud punishments, not to mention the revival of that old sharia institution, the enslavement of captives. Are you going to be so ridiculous as to assert that the southern Sudanese are fighting for their right to liquor, extramarital sex, and obscenity?
“ | "This assertion re human rights violations as the root cause requires citations from accessible scholarly works, pref univ presses, with page numbers."' | ” |
The imposition of Islamic law is one of the root causes, namely since it does not assign equal rights to women and non-Muslims, which in the reality based community would fall under the category of "human rights," and regarding which a reference in international law can be found in Article 2 of the UNDHR, "Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status." You're rather desperately splitting hairs here.
“ | Contested aspects of Sharia include the canonical hudud punishments (e.g. amputation, stoning, and lashing). | ” |
“ | This sentence requires proper citation as to who is contesting and in what respect. Is this in regard to cause of war and violence, or western criticism? | ” |
In what alternate universe do you think people are not going to contest amputation, stoning, and lashing, and why do you need explanation as to why some people, in fact quite a lot of people will object to this, whether it happens to them personally, or whether, out of their common humanity, it happens to other people?
I think, in the reality based community "The factors that provoked the military coup, primarily the closely intertwined issues of Islamic law and of the civil war in the south, remained unresolved in 1991. The September 1983 implementation of the sharia throughout the country had been controversial and provoked widespread resistance in the predominantly non-Muslim south ... Opposition to the sharia, especially to the application of hudud (sing., hadd), or Islamic penalties, such as the public amputation of hands for theft, was not confined to the south and had been a principal factor leading to the popular uprising of April 1985 that overthrew the government of Jaafar an Nimeiri" is more than sufficient to establish that "imposition of sharia," particularly the imposition of hudud punishments, is "accompanied by warfare."
“ | Sharia's prohibitions on blasphemy and apostasy also depart from internationally recognized concepts of religious freedom. | ” |
“ | "Citation please. Again, please provide citations." | ” |
You already know perfectly that sharia does not allow blasphemy and apostasy, so this is just petty and bad faith. Since you've insisted, however, and since I left my book of Islamic criminal jurisprudence in a box somewhere, I'll use a source that we both know:
Reliance of the Traveler:
For Muslims: 8.0 APOSTASY FROM ISLAM (RIDDA) (page 595) o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed. o8.3 If he is a freeman, no one besides the caliph or his representative may kill him. If someone else kills him, the killer is disciplined (def: o17) (O: for arrogating the caliph’s prerogative and encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties). o8.4 There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (O: or any expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die)
....
@O8.7: Acts that Entail Leaving Islam (O: Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam (may Allah protect us from them) are: -1- to prostrate to an idol, whether sarcastically, out of mere contrariness, or in actual conviction, like that of someone who believes the Creator to be something that has originated in time. Like idols in this respect are the sun or moon, and like prostration is bowing to other than Allah, if one intends reverence towards it like the reverence due to Allah; -2- to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future. And like this intention is hesitating whether to do so or not: one thereby immediately commits unbelief; -3- to speak words that imply unbelief such as ``Allah is the third of three, or ``I am Allah-unless one's tongue has run away with one, or one is quoting another, or is one of the friends of Allah Most High (wali, def: w33) in a spiritually intoxicated state of total oblivion (A: friend of Allah or not, someone totally oblivious is as if insane, and is not held legally responsible (dis: k13.1(O:) ) ), for these latter do not entail unbelief; -4- to revile Allah or His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace); -5- to deny the existence of Allah, His beginingless eternality, His endless eternality, or to deny any of His attributes which the consensus of Muslims ascribes to Him (dis: v1); -6- to be sarcastic about Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat; -7- to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus (def: b7) belongs to it, or to add a verse that does belong to it; -8-to mockingly say, ``I don't know what faith is; -9- to reply to someone who says, ``There is no power or strength save through Allah; ``Your saying `There's no power or strength, etc,' won't save you from hunger; -10- for a tyrant, after an oppressed person says, ``This is through the decree of Allah, to reply, ``I act without the decree of Allah; ... (n: `Ala' al-din' Abidin adds the following: -16- to revile the religion of Islam; -17- to believe that things in themselves or by their own nature have any causal influence independent of the will of Allah; -18- to deny the existence of angels or jinn (def: w22), or the heavens; -19-to be sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law; There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless. May Allah Most High save us and all Muslims from it.)
For a non-Muslim
@O11.9 If non-Muslim subjects of the Islamic state refuse to conform to the rules of Islam, or to pay the non-Muslim poll tax, then their agreement with the state has been violated (dis: o11.11) (A: though if only one of them disobeys, it concerns him alone). @O11.10 The agreement is also violated (A: with respect to the offender alone) if the state has stipulated that any of the following things break it, and one of the subjects does so anyway, though if the state has not stipulated that these break the agreement, then they do not; namely, if one of the subject people: -1- commits adultery with a Muslim woman or marries her; -2- conceals spies of hostile forces; -3- leads a Muslim away from Islam; -4- kills a Muslim; -5- or mentions something impermissible about Allah, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), or Islam When a subject's agreement with the state has been violated, the caliph chooses between the four alternatives mentioned above in connection with prisoners of war
But really you already know this and are just pettifogging.
“ | The OIC nations have thus released their own Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam that are in accordance with their interpretation of Sharia. | ” |
“ | Pointless as the context has not been established. | ” |
This shows that the OIC, the official organ for the Muslim nations of the world, has objections to "human rights" as set forth in the UNDHR, and that sharia constitutes the basis of these objections. What are you talking about here?
“ | within constitutional bounds, does not the majority impose its will in a democracy? If so, is this truly imposition or implementation? | ” |
What's the objection to the word "impose"? It's no different than imposing taxes, or some other obligation, which sharia is.
“ | Citations are improving, but the most important ones are still missing. Is the unrest due solely to human rights abuses, or is it more complicated | ” |
The citations are exactly the same.
Nowhere do I make the exceptional claim that imposition of sharia and the accompanying human rights violations is the sole source of unrest or warfare or whatever problems exist, just the rather modest and mundane claim that "imposition of sharia has been accompanied by controversy, violence, and warfare," a fact that is pretty well documented. The real problem for you isn't that this is is not true, or trivial, or irrelevant, the problem is that it detracts from the article's missionary value. Jayzames ( talk) 02:24, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I have been trying to fix the sharia article after one user, "Jagged 85" introduced a great deal of questionable material into this and many other articles, check here to see what it used to look like. I think the user in question may now be the subject of a sock puppet investigation. Anyway, I've since then been trying to clean up and improve the spaminated law articles (mostly the Sharia article), with varying degrees of success. Another user, Aquib american muslim has objected to my changes, and has deleted material I wrote which he found "controversial," on grounds that controversial material should not be in the lead. Some time later, after reading Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section) which states that: "The lead should ... define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies," I reinserted this material (fourth paragraph of the Sharia article), and he has again started to redelete, this time claiming that the material is uncited, poorly cited, misleading, misrepresentation of sources, etc. (along with some more comments about how I had perpetrated a "detestable hack job" etc.) I've asked him repeatedly to quote and point out specifically what is wrong with the sources on the talk page, and he has not yet done so, though I specifically used publicly available sources just for this reason, and have addressed his objections as much as was possible on the talk page.
Aquib has also objected to my removing the material found problematic as per the foregoing RFC for Jagged 85; which he believes is "from first-class minds in this area of knowledge."
To put it more succinctly, the issue at hand is whether "controversial" material should be put in the lead, and whether the material is supported by the citations used.
The contested paragraph is the fourth paragraph here as Aqiib has deleted it again,
I'm not really interested in protecting the page or blocking users (including getting myself blocked) but the constant reverts are a distraction. Jayzames ( talk) 02:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I first challenged this paragraph in April for it's lack of citations. It remained in place for several weeks, with no changes. When I began taking it down, citations were added for the first three assertions it makes. At first, the quality of these citations was very poor, but they have improved somewhat. However, this paragraph still has multiple problems, which I have identified in detail on numerous occasions, both on the talk page and by marking up the paragraph and summarizing each markup.
The first sentence of the paragraph begins by asserting imposition of Sharia has caused controversy, violence and even war. These three assertions (controversy, violence and war) have citations, although I question the use of the term imposition due to it's connotations.
Beyond this point, there are NO further citations in the paragraph supporting any other claims the paragraph makes. After these first three cited assertions, the first sentence goes on to claim Sharia has caused these tragedies "DUE TO DISCREPANCIES between Sharia and international concepts[16] of human rights." This claim requires scholarly citations from university presses, as do the remainder of the UNCITED CLAIMS the paragraph makes.
I am not saying these claims are true or false. I am saying they are uncited. Let me suggest an analogy for purposes of illustration. The "War Against Drugs" has also caused controversy, violence and even warfare. In fact, it is hard to imagine any issue causing a war without causing controversy and violence. But what is this DUE TO? Is it due to the huge profits to be made selling illegal drugs? Is it due to poverty and other conditions? Is it due to the fact the US is trying to stop illegal drugs while simultaneously buying everything available on the illegal market? I don't know the answer, but I may have opinions. But whoever claims to know what this war is DUE TO should provide some CITATIONS to back up their claim.
I have been waiting for citations for some time now. I do not understand why there are no citations for these claims, unless they are unsupportable. If this is all clear and factual, let's see some citations for the rest of the claims made by this controversial paragraph inserted into the lead of this article.
Aquib ( talk) 12:32, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The adoption of Sharia law by predominantly Muslim states has caused international controversy due to discrepancies between Sharia and international concepts of human rights. In particular, canonical hudud punishments such as lashing, amputation, and stoning do not conform to established European and American ideals about the treatment of citizens, and the restrictions on rights given to women and non-Muslims opposes standards of equality and religious freedom held in the West. The OIC nations have released a separate declaration on Human Rights that better fits the interpretation of Sharia law. The adoption of Sharia has also led to violence in several states, particularly where large segments of the population are non-Muslim or practice less restrictive forms of Islam.
I have too much work today so I can't get into this into too much detail, but please point out what is wrong with the sources? AFAIC, they are good, and certainly a lot better and more easily verified than what used to be in here, which you can see here. You can also check here and here for what some of the issues in the original article were like and why the user who made these edits might have been problematic.
I think it hardly needs explaining that in the late 20th and 21st century, a system of law that demands amputation and stoning as penalties, and that imposes capital punishment for apostasy and blasphemy might be "controversial," and might be even resisted violently. It's not an exceptional claim at all, a rather modest one at that, and there is no synthesis. The controversy, if you check the sources cited, is real. The violence and the threat of violence, likewise, is real. Every prominent person who has publicly apostatized or blasphemed, including figures like
Ayaan Hirsi Ali or
Salman Rushdie requires a contingent of bodyguards. Even Dutch Labour politician
Ahmed Aboutaleb, who is a practicing Muslim and not an apostate, also requires a contingent of full time bodyguards. Where are you getting "synthesis" from this? I think the best test as to whether this satisfies verifiability is the thought experiment of going to a sharia country, maybe Afghanistan or Iran or Sudan or Saudi Arabia or Somalia, and doing something like openly preaching the gospel or committing adultery in front of four Muslim male witnesses, and then seeing what happens to you. If you believe that you can come back safe and sound then we can remove these claims in good faith.
Second, as far as "who" resists the imposition of sharia, it varies depending on what country it is, and can encompass a wide array of constituencies, including non-Muslims, women's groups, and liberal Muslims, and the sources attempt to convey some of the diversity of that opposition, which included a Muslim womens' groups. Since it is "controversial" with a broad and varied range of people, there is nothing wrong with saying it is "controversial," anymore than saying the right to abortion is "controversial."
Finally, no sharia is not the same in every case, but I think the sources adequately show that certain aspects, including
hudud punishments and apostasy laws, are part of sharia in a fairly wide range of countries, and that when Islamists come to power and promise to impose sharia, that this is in fact what you will get. If you believe that
hudud punishments or apostasy laws are really a marginal aspect of sharia advocated by a tiny extremist minority of those wanting to implement sharia, you're mistaken, and I think the sources used show that. There are places, Canada and England for example, where hudud punishments are totally out of the question and the social outrage would be severe, and these are the places where activists are much more modestly asking for sharia only to adjudicate personal matters, which is also stated. Let's not be ridiculous about sharia and pretend that they will be handing out candy and flowers once it's imposed.
Jayzames (
talk)
02:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Attempts to impose Sharia have been accompanied by controversy,[2][3][4][5] violence,[6][7][8][9][10][11] and even warfare (cf. Second Sudanese Civil War) [12][13][14][15] due to discrepancies between Sharia and international concepts[16] of human rights (particularly with respect to the rights of women and non-Muslims)[17] that have resulted in various infringements on those rights. Contested aspects of Sharia include the canonical hudud punishments (e.g. amputation, stoning, and lashing). Sharia's prohibitions on blasphemy and apostasy also depart from internationally recognized concepts of religious freedom. The OIC nations have thus released their own Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam that are in accordance with their interpretation of Sharia.
Uh, what? How does use of the term Islamist or Allah (SWT) compromise neutrality, as we are talking about Islamic law? And where are you getting "anti-immigrant" from, I've been an immigrant to a few countries myself (including two Muslim ones) myself. We're talking about the basic law here, which clearly says "the hands of thieves are to be cut off," you don't seem to get why some might object to having this rendered official. I know the rules of evidence, and I know perfectly well that what happens in reality, both in premodern Muslim states and now, can differ quite substantially, both for better and for worse, from what's on paper (it was generally actually worse than official sharia in some respects during premodern Ottoman and Abbasid times due to less regulated and transparent institutions like the shurta, or police, and mazalim, or temporal courts gradually encroaching on the authority of the qadi). It's also not just narrow minded people that have been opposed to the introduction of sharia tribunals in Western countries, I know Tarek Fatah, a liberal Muslim in Canada, has been vehemently opposed to this, as well as the Muslim Canadian Congress, and there could hardly be a group called Muslims Against Sharia if opposition to sharia was strictly on racist grounds. I'd be interested in seeing you find something to show that drastic corporal punishments like mutilation continued into the 1960's or that the US executed children; I think you're getting into tin foil hat territory, and none of this is even relevant to whether sharia and human rights differ from each other or whether controversy ensues when it's imposed, claims that I think the evidence makes it difficult to disprove. The basic law has been quoted from the sources, delineating specifically what the punishments are (irrespective of how often they are implemented in practice), if you think those punishments do not contravene human rights, I'd like to hear how. How did this become a diatribe about the US criminal justice system? I wouldn't for one, object at all to saying that the US criminal justice system is controversial, that's just stating the obvious, the same goes for Islamic law. If you're so confident about the soundness of Islamic law to protect your human rights, again please visit a nice sharia country and preach atheism. Jayzames ( talk) 08:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
BTW, the reference regarding the
Binding of Isaac is to show that God is to be obeyed, full stop. I don't know where you're getting the idea that God simply told Abraham to break the law, if he wanted to do that he could have told Abraham to commit adultery instead. It is a test of faith, that God's order is to be obeyed no matter if you find the order irrational or cruel, and the same reasoning goes for sharia and its punishments, no matter if some parts of it may seem, by modern standards, cruel. I also used the name Ibrahim (AS) because the Muslim version of the story is different and involves a different son, I don't know what you're trying to imply about the use of the terms Allah or Islamist.
Jayzames (
talk)
09:03, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, with respect to the strange little diversion as to use of capital punishment by country, you can see here that of the top 10 executors of capital punishment in 2009, seven were Muslim, though really I don't think this sort of tu quoque argument is germane to the issue either way. Jayzames ( talk) 09:22, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Also one more technicality, since Abraham precedes Moses, who brought down the Mosaic law from the mountain, he precedes the formalization of Jewish law, and really couldn't be breaking the law, as there was not yet any set of laws to break. Jayzames ( talk) 09:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry but.. "when Christian countries have shown equal brutality" is pretty much the standard version of tu quoque. US treatment of POWs isn't even remotely relevant to sharia and its criminal penalties, treatment of minorities or women, and punishments for apostates. There is surely an article about Guantanamo or US treatment of POWS on Wikipedia, and that belongs there. Whether or not the US does this or that doesn't make the plain fact of the marked divergence between sharia and international human rights law any less true or relevant. The famous punishments are both on the books, and enforced, making them more than a historical curiosity. As far as the US executing a higher percentage of its prisoners per capita, I don't think even that claim stands up either "sharia" countries like Kuwait or Oman notably rank higher than the US, the ones that don't, like Sudan and Somalia, may not be together enough to even keep adequate records. Doesn't really affect sharia's standing vis a vis human rights either way. FWIW, I personally would prefer that no prisoner be executed.
Any legal system (or actually any lack of a legal system) can be brutal, but how many other legal systems still prescribe amputation? How would you "properly implement" this "basic law" so it doesn't lead to the unpleasant consequence?
From "Crimes and Punishments under Islamic Law"
The punishment for theft is prescribed in the Holy Qur'an thus: "As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands as punishment by way of example from Allah for their crime. And Allah is exalted in power." As reported in Sahih al Bukhari and Muslim this punishment (of cutting the hand) was practised by the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) Himself. He cut off a thief's hand and also ordered the amputation of a female thief's hand."
The four major schools of Sunni Islamic law all agree that the right hand comes off first, the Hanafi school differs in that the next theft requires the amputation of the left foot, the other schools differ in demanding the left hand; all agree that the punishment is amputation, and this is mainstream orthodoxy in sharia. You're way off the mark about "many Islamic scholars," I've never heard of the Assembly of Qom (being more familiar with the Sunni majority), but
the usual punishments still go on in Iran.
And finally, the last little attempt at a "neocon" smear (now that is a genuinely inflammatory word, at least among my circle) is really some remarkably strenuous projecting. I've lived among Muslims (granted very progressive and secular ones) and no I don't consider Islam to be a threat to the West, an allegation which is doubly absurd because I don't live there or feel terribly invested in its survival. You've confused me with whoever you've gotten into arguments with before. The fact that "Islamist" is a word used by David Horowitz or Daniel Pipes hardly makes it automatically an ad hominem, it's quite liberally used by Bassam Tibi too, an Arab Muslim and thinker on the Arab left, who got his training at the Frankfurt School under the direct tutelage of Theodore Adorno and Max Horkheimer themselves. A more celebrated neo Marxist pedigree hardly exists in the academic world. In short, no, use of the word "Islamist" does not automatically make one a neocon.
Jayzames (
talk)
18:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Come on, that might offend people - both Muslims and homosexuals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.2.241 ( talk) 15:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I have taken an interest in the subject of Dhimmitude and the dhimma contract, and moved Hodgson's and Glenn's material on this subject into a new article - "History of the dhimma." I need additional sources.
I believe we have the "Sharia and non-Muslims" subject covered well enough - for now - with what remains here in Sharia. I plan to remove the last portion of the last remaining paragraph in the "non-Muslim" section of the Sharia article. The remaining 2 sentences can be incorporated as the last sentence of the prior paragraph. When that change is accomplished, the last paragraph of "non-Muslims" will appear as below. Suggestions and comments are appreciated. Regards, Aquib ( talk) 22:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Pagans are not afforded the rights and protections of the dhimma contract. Nevertheless, according to the Quran and classic Sharia, no person can be compelled to convert to Islam - regardless of their religion or lack of religion. Sharia attributes different legal rights to these different groups; in practice, this consists of less rights for non-Muslims.[191] Aquib ( talk) 22:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
I would like to reorganize the sections near the end of the article. We have civil law as a subcat of common law, a law parallels section plus a separate law comparisons section, modern topical info under comparisons etc. In addition, some of the categories have been emptied out. It needs cleaning up and reorganizing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquib american muslim ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, the reference recently cited in support of the claim that Hindus are regarded as a people of the book does not support it. The relevent text from the reference is:
Footnote 249 cites another source, as follows:
It's not at all clear to me precisely what the parenthetical comment "and hindus are assimilated to them" here means. Presumably, it means at least that Hindus have been accorded the same, or similar, legal status as Jews and Christians, but I see no reason to conclude that H. Patrick Glenn, the author of the reference, meant to assert that they were also referred to as a "people of the book".
Moreover, it would appear from another of the references cited in the article, Bernard Lewis's The Jews of Islam, that the extension of special status to Hindus was a later development which was not observed immediately after the initial expansion of Islam. On p.18 of this reference Lewis writes:
A little further on, on p.20 he writes:
Thus, even if it is possible to find a good reference which unequivocally supports the claim that Muslims now regard Hindus as one of the peoples of the book, the article should not give the impression, as it currently does, that this has always been the case.
David Wilson (
talk ·
cont)
09:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)