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I removed reference to "Hindu caste system" because during the time of Shri Rama, there was no such thing as Hinduism or what is today understood as the "caste system" and replaced it with the more appropriate term "jati."
I also removed external links to the main pages of Dalit websites as they had nothing to say about Shambuka and the Ramayana. There are more appropriate areas of WP for exhibiting the Dalit cause.
I also added a bunch of tags indicating references were needed, and added the overall NPOV banner at the top because the article still seems lopsided.
Comments/edits welcome
I've reverted the first sentence to the language suggested by the closing editor, as the language currently in place was rejected by the RfC. A DRN filing was closed as intractable, so the only path forward seems to be to continue working toward consensus here. I've added a Template:Disputed_inline tag to the first sentence, which I've redirected here so that concerned editors can continue to discuss. I'd ask other editors to stop reverting the sentence, the language is disputed and the closing editor's suggestion is the closest we have to a neutral option pending this discussion. Toward the end of the RfC, an attempt was made to draft compromise language. The most resent proposed compromise was
Shambuka is a character in some versions of the Hindu epic Ramayana, including the Uttara Kanda Book of the Ramayana. According to these versions, Shambuka, a shudra ascetic, was killed by Rama for attempting to perform tapas in violation of dharma, resulting in the bad karma which caused the death of a Brahmin's son.
This language better captures the concerns of those who supported Option 1 in the RfC than the language offered by the closing editor, but no supporter of Option 1 commented on it, so we're on firmer ground to follow the suggestion of the closing editor pending discussion of the proposed compromise language. Later today I'll collate and summarize the arguments made for each proposal in the RfC, to have them handy to help with this task. Carleas ( talk) 14:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Shambuka ( Sanskrit: शम्बूक, IAST: śambūka) is a character in the Uttara Kanda, the last book in some tellings of the Indian epic Ramayana.
Shambuka ( Sanskrit: शम्बूक, IAST: śambūka) is a character in the Uttara Kanda.
Shambuka (Sanskrit: शम्बूक, IAST: śambūka) is a character found in the Uttara Kanda, an interpolated book included in some tellings of the Ramayana.
There comes a point in every debate where the debate itself has come to a natural end. You may have won the debate, you may have lost the debate, or you may have found yourself in a long, drawn-out draw. At this point you should drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass." Ratnahastin ( talk) 11:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
You had used this argument before and during the RfC but it hasn't been conclusive. Can you stop making same arguments again? See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If you are finding problems with any other articles then you must fix them.
Some sources:
The interpolation was done at a time when varna system deteriorated and got established on the basis of birth in a rigid form. Shambuka's story is not consistent with many examples of persons of so-called low birth being initiated into Ashrams as pupils by Rishis, and becoming Rishis themselves.
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |issn=
value (
help); Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)explore interpolation by examining various incidents, such as the Phalashruti at the end of 'Yuddha Kanda', Sita's banishment, Shambuk's termination [...] The episode of the termination of Shambuk is also completely illogical.
However, this story has been criticised and rejected by many scholars and thinkers as an interpolation and a fabrication that was created to justify the caste system and Brahminical domination.
Shambuka in the Uttara Kanda of the Valmiki Ramayana is an episode that reveals a major faultine
Shambuka , as already mentioned. It is again frivolous concoction, motivated to blemish the holy image of Rama, hero of Ramayana, by some mischievous Brahmin intellectual and cleverly interpolated in the Uttara- Kanda
It is also clear that in the case of killing of Shambuk, a Shudr, subsequent interpolation have made it a case of Shudr killing. The summary of the disputed Shambuk's beheading case described in Uttarkand
Promoting a fabricated story in favor of an unimportant and self-created killing of Shambuka (by King Sri Rama), a character purported to have been mentioned in Ramayana's Uttara Kanda
Since this character is highly controversial and undoubtedly faulty, you cannot whitewash the first paragraph. Everyone find the character and book both to be an interpolation. There is no disagreement. Just because you find something to be "POV in my opinion" then still the fact cannot be suppressed. Georgethedragonslayer ( talk) 10:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
story has been criticised and rejected by many scholars and thinkers as an interpolation and a fabrication that was created to justify the caste system and Brahminical domination."? How else will you describe it as if not "interpolated character"?
"The play Shanbhuk Vadh (1964) is based on the myth of Sambuk’s murder. It is a story that is found in the Uttara Kanda; according to this story, Rama, the king of Ayodhya, killed a shudra ascetic named Shambuka for performing tapas (austerities), which was against the rules of dharma (duty) for his caste. This act of Rama was supposed to restore the balance of the cosmic order and revive a Brahmin son who had died due to Shambuka’s transgression."
The Arbitration Committee does not rule on content disputes, which are resolved by alternative methods."
story has been criticised and rejected by many scholars and thinkers as an interpolation and a fabrication that was created to justify the caste system and Brahminical domination." So how else will you describe it as if not "interpolated character"? Surely we cannot ignore the criticism that has surrounded the subject so far.
interpolation took place in the Rāmāyaṇa story the Uttarakāṇḍa was not the part of the original Vālmīki -Rāmāyaṇa and it seems to be an interpolation of the later Vedic times ( 3rd century to 2nd ), the Sambūka episode is a later addition since it finds place in Uttarakāṇḍa. Therefore , such an interpolation and question based on interpolation seems to be out of context. If Rāma was the king of the post - Vedic times, the Sambūka incident might have been authentic and somewhat real, but since the history of Rāma is not very clear , we cannot associate him with the caste ridden society." [27] Ratnahastin ( talk) 11:18, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
The play Shanbhuk Vadh (1964) is based on the myth of Sambuk’s murder. It is a story that is found in the Uttara Kanda; according to this story, Rama, the king of Ayodhya, killed a shudra ascetic named Shambuka for performing tapas (austerities), which was against the rules of dharma (duty) for his caste. This act of Rama was supposed to restore the balance of the cosmic order and revive a Brahmin son who had died due to Shambuka’s transgression.
Shambuka is a shudra ascetic in the Uttara Kanda who was killed by Rama for performing tapas.
Sources are roughly ordered to address points 1 first and 2 second, but many arguably go to both points so I did not label them as addressing one or the other. Please add any that I have missed.
Redtigerxyz Talk 12:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Gupta, Richman, and Nadkarni all support the idea that the Uttara Kanda is a later addition to the Ramayana, though Richman is explicit in considering it nonetheless legitimate. Gupta does not offer citations for his claim, but Nadkarni and Richman do. However, Nadkarni's does not seem to say what he claims, though this may be an issue of a bad scan and/or an earlier version (I could only find the 1930 version and his cite is to the 1990 version, but Uttara Kanda does not appear in the index of the 19030 version of the same book) [32]) Richman cites to herself and Goldman, arguably the leading Ramayana scholar in the west, who has published a full translation of the Ramayana. In the introduction he discusses the issues with authorship, but says only that, "Scholars of the Ramayana have also noted that much of the text shows linguistic and rhetorical differences from the rest of the poem, especially books 2 through 6, while some have even argued that the entire book is a later addition to the work and that the 'original' poem ended with Yuddhakanda and the consecration of Rama. This is a complex issue, and we will not go into the details of the arguments here." (p. 19, emphasis added) [33] I'll add Goldman to the sources list. Goldman also clarifies that "Vamliki's Ramayana", referring to the earliest extant manuscript, did include the Uttara Kanda. Id., 3-8 In the work he cites for additional discussion (footnote 10, page 19), as far as I can tell he only specifies that it was included "at a very early date" [34]. Contra Gupta, he notes that it was mentioned in another work dated "within the first two or three centuries AD" (id. page 68); Gupta suggests it at 4th or 5th century. In any case Richman still includes the Uttara Kanda in "Valmiki's Ramayana". Only Nadkarni claims explicitly that the Uttara Kanda is not a part of Valmiki's Ramayana, but I can't confirm that his cited source supports that claim. From this it seems clear that at least we can say that there is no scholarly consensus, in large part because, as Goldman and Richman point out, there are many Ramayanas. It seems there's a consensus the Uttara Kanda appears in the oldest extant manuscript we have of the Vamliki Ramayana, but that scholars agree that the text is noteably different, and many believe it was added later. One takeaway from this is to note that both Goldman and Richman use the convention of calling them "tellings" rather than "versions"; compromise language using the same convention would better align with the scholarship.
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"In some traditions like those of Madhvacharya Sampradaya he is belived to be a form of Asura named Janga (as per Shrimad Mahabhaarata-Taatparya-Nirnaya Chapter 9 verse 21)"
[1] Jonny2003 05 26 ( talk) 09:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Shambuka article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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![]() | The
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Afghanistan, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
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Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
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I removed reference to "Hindu caste system" because during the time of Shri Rama, there was no such thing as Hinduism or what is today understood as the "caste system" and replaced it with the more appropriate term "jati."
I also removed external links to the main pages of Dalit websites as they had nothing to say about Shambuka and the Ramayana. There are more appropriate areas of WP for exhibiting the Dalit cause.
I also added a bunch of tags indicating references were needed, and added the overall NPOV banner at the top because the article still seems lopsided.
Comments/edits welcome
I've reverted the first sentence to the language suggested by the closing editor, as the language currently in place was rejected by the RfC. A DRN filing was closed as intractable, so the only path forward seems to be to continue working toward consensus here. I've added a Template:Disputed_inline tag to the first sentence, which I've redirected here so that concerned editors can continue to discuss. I'd ask other editors to stop reverting the sentence, the language is disputed and the closing editor's suggestion is the closest we have to a neutral option pending this discussion. Toward the end of the RfC, an attempt was made to draft compromise language. The most resent proposed compromise was
Shambuka is a character in some versions of the Hindu epic Ramayana, including the Uttara Kanda Book of the Ramayana. According to these versions, Shambuka, a shudra ascetic, was killed by Rama for attempting to perform tapas in violation of dharma, resulting in the bad karma which caused the death of a Brahmin's son.
This language better captures the concerns of those who supported Option 1 in the RfC than the language offered by the closing editor, but no supporter of Option 1 commented on it, so we're on firmer ground to follow the suggestion of the closing editor pending discussion of the proposed compromise language. Later today I'll collate and summarize the arguments made for each proposal in the RfC, to have them handy to help with this task. Carleas ( talk) 14:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
Shambuka ( Sanskrit: शम्बूक, IAST: śambūka) is a character in the Uttara Kanda, the last book in some tellings of the Indian epic Ramayana.
Shambuka ( Sanskrit: शम्बूक, IAST: śambūka) is a character in the Uttara Kanda.
Shambuka (Sanskrit: शम्बूक, IAST: śambūka) is a character found in the Uttara Kanda, an interpolated book included in some tellings of the Ramayana.
There comes a point in every debate where the debate itself has come to a natural end. You may have won the debate, you may have lost the debate, or you may have found yourself in a long, drawn-out draw. At this point you should drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass." Ratnahastin ( talk) 11:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
You had used this argument before and during the RfC but it hasn't been conclusive. Can you stop making same arguments again? See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If you are finding problems with any other articles then you must fix them.
Some sources:
The interpolation was done at a time when varna system deteriorated and got established on the basis of birth in a rigid form. Shambuka's story is not consistent with many examples of persons of so-called low birth being initiated into Ashrams as pupils by Rishis, and becoming Rishis themselves.
{{
cite journal}}
: Check |issn=
value (
help); Cite journal requires |journal=
(
help)explore interpolation by examining various incidents, such as the Phalashruti at the end of 'Yuddha Kanda', Sita's banishment, Shambuk's termination [...] The episode of the termination of Shambuk is also completely illogical.
However, this story has been criticised and rejected by many scholars and thinkers as an interpolation and a fabrication that was created to justify the caste system and Brahminical domination.
Shambuka in the Uttara Kanda of the Valmiki Ramayana is an episode that reveals a major faultine
Shambuka , as already mentioned. It is again frivolous concoction, motivated to blemish the holy image of Rama, hero of Ramayana, by some mischievous Brahmin intellectual and cleverly interpolated in the Uttara- Kanda
It is also clear that in the case of killing of Shambuk, a Shudr, subsequent interpolation have made it a case of Shudr killing. The summary of the disputed Shambuk's beheading case described in Uttarkand
Promoting a fabricated story in favor of an unimportant and self-created killing of Shambuka (by King Sri Rama), a character purported to have been mentioned in Ramayana's Uttara Kanda
Since this character is highly controversial and undoubtedly faulty, you cannot whitewash the first paragraph. Everyone find the character and book both to be an interpolation. There is no disagreement. Just because you find something to be "POV in my opinion" then still the fact cannot be suppressed. Georgethedragonslayer ( talk) 10:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
story has been criticised and rejected by many scholars and thinkers as an interpolation and a fabrication that was created to justify the caste system and Brahminical domination."? How else will you describe it as if not "interpolated character"?
"The play Shanbhuk Vadh (1964) is based on the myth of Sambuk’s murder. It is a story that is found in the Uttara Kanda; according to this story, Rama, the king of Ayodhya, killed a shudra ascetic named Shambuka for performing tapas (austerities), which was against the rules of dharma (duty) for his caste. This act of Rama was supposed to restore the balance of the cosmic order and revive a Brahmin son who had died due to Shambuka’s transgression."
The Arbitration Committee does not rule on content disputes, which are resolved by alternative methods."
story has been criticised and rejected by many scholars and thinkers as an interpolation and a fabrication that was created to justify the caste system and Brahminical domination." So how else will you describe it as if not "interpolated character"? Surely we cannot ignore the criticism that has surrounded the subject so far.
interpolation took place in the Rāmāyaṇa story the Uttarakāṇḍa was not the part of the original Vālmīki -Rāmāyaṇa and it seems to be an interpolation of the later Vedic times ( 3rd century to 2nd ), the Sambūka episode is a later addition since it finds place in Uttarakāṇḍa. Therefore , such an interpolation and question based on interpolation seems to be out of context. If Rāma was the king of the post - Vedic times, the Sambūka incident might have been authentic and somewhat real, but since the history of Rāma is not very clear , we cannot associate him with the caste ridden society." [27] Ratnahastin ( talk) 11:18, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
The play Shanbhuk Vadh (1964) is based on the myth of Sambuk’s murder. It is a story that is found in the Uttara Kanda; according to this story, Rama, the king of Ayodhya, killed a shudra ascetic named Shambuka for performing tapas (austerities), which was against the rules of dharma (duty) for his caste. This act of Rama was supposed to restore the balance of the cosmic order and revive a Brahmin son who had died due to Shambuka’s transgression.
Shambuka is a shudra ascetic in the Uttara Kanda who was killed by Rama for performing tapas.
Sources are roughly ordered to address points 1 first and 2 second, but many arguably go to both points so I did not label them as addressing one or the other. Please add any that I have missed.
Redtigerxyz Talk 12:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Gupta, Richman, and Nadkarni all support the idea that the Uttara Kanda is a later addition to the Ramayana, though Richman is explicit in considering it nonetheless legitimate. Gupta does not offer citations for his claim, but Nadkarni and Richman do. However, Nadkarni's does not seem to say what he claims, though this may be an issue of a bad scan and/or an earlier version (I could only find the 1930 version and his cite is to the 1990 version, but Uttara Kanda does not appear in the index of the 19030 version of the same book) [32]) Richman cites to herself and Goldman, arguably the leading Ramayana scholar in the west, who has published a full translation of the Ramayana. In the introduction he discusses the issues with authorship, but says only that, "Scholars of the Ramayana have also noted that much of the text shows linguistic and rhetorical differences from the rest of the poem, especially books 2 through 6, while some have even argued that the entire book is a later addition to the work and that the 'original' poem ended with Yuddhakanda and the consecration of Rama. This is a complex issue, and we will not go into the details of the arguments here." (p. 19, emphasis added) [33] I'll add Goldman to the sources list. Goldman also clarifies that "Vamliki's Ramayana", referring to the earliest extant manuscript, did include the Uttara Kanda. Id., 3-8 In the work he cites for additional discussion (footnote 10, page 19), as far as I can tell he only specifies that it was included "at a very early date" [34]. Contra Gupta, he notes that it was mentioned in another work dated "within the first two or three centuries AD" (id. page 68); Gupta suggests it at 4th or 5th century. In any case Richman still includes the Uttara Kanda in "Valmiki's Ramayana". Only Nadkarni claims explicitly that the Uttara Kanda is not a part of Valmiki's Ramayana, but I can't confirm that his cited source supports that claim. From this it seems clear that at least we can say that there is no scholarly consensus, in large part because, as Goldman and Richman point out, there are many Ramayanas. It seems there's a consensus the Uttara Kanda appears in the oldest extant manuscript we have of the Vamliki Ramayana, but that scholars agree that the text is noteably different, and many believe it was added later. One takeaway from this is to note that both Goldman and Richman use the convention of calling them "tellings" rather than "versions"; compromise language using the same convention would better align with the scholarship.
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"In some traditions like those of Madhvacharya Sampradaya he is belived to be a form of Asura named Janga (as per Shrimad Mahabhaarata-Taatparya-Nirnaya Chapter 9 verse 21)"
[1] Jonny2003 05 26 ( talk) 09:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)