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Above (23:33, 29 December 2010 UTC), NinaGreen proposed that the first paragraph of the lead, and the start of the second, be replaced with:
Style here is that the first sentence should define the topic, so the current lead starts properly, while the proposal would be too vague for someone wondering what the SAQ is. The proposal puts an emphasis on the past 150 years that I think is misleading. It is often true, and widely believed, that developments in the past 150 years have moved many fields (particularly science) from a primitive basis to proven and useful knowledge. Accordingly, the proposed wording may suggest that modern understanding (i.e. the correct view) is that Shakespeare was "merely a front". A more due reference to time might be [Bate 1998]: No one in Shakespeare's lifetime or the first two hundred years after his death expressed the slightest doubt about his authorship. The proposal changes the second paragraph from "Scholars contend..." to "Scholars suggest...". That's quite a big change which goes to the heart of the issue: do those who are known to be scholars in this field contend or merely suggest? My understanding is that "contend" is the more accurate term. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
'The consensus of the Shakespeare establishment and the public at large is that William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon was the author of the works traditionally attributed to him. However . .'
a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class (as of a nation) b often capitalized : a controlling group <the literary establishment>
Nishidani points out above that "Actually, just for the record, Tom did try, without success, to inform Nina of this crucial distinction [between WikiProject and policy], in his long reply on the 27th:'the Wikipedia Alternative Views project is not a policy.'" [1]
Yes. I'm sorry to say lack of success in informing Nina is what I have come to expect; it's one of the big problems on this page, and wastes everybody's time. Her talkpage editing all goes in one direction: lots of output, little or no intake. The editors of this page have been following the important wikipedia principle of generosity in teaching newcomers; but it doesn't seem to, how shall I put it... to take. Nina ignores it or wikilawyers to prove she knows better, whenever anybody addresses her. I mean, whenever, as she puts it, she's "lectured and criticized and harped at on policy by virtually every administrator and editor of this page since I came on board as an editor, with no praise from anyone for the fact that I almost single-handedly edited the entire Edward de Vere article". [2] Also for the record, Tom did praise her work on the de Vere article: "Thanks for all you've done; it's good to have someone work on it who has a deep background." [3] Also, on her user talk, he praised her work on the Shakespeare authorship question. I don't know why those posts don't count as "praise from anyone", Nina? Have you ever said anything half as civil to Tom about his work? Bishonen | talk 17:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC).
Talk about moving the goalposts! From the Talk page for the Edward de Vere article:
Tom, I'm not going to bother responding to your other points because you're just going round the same mulberry bush without answering anything,
Tom, you wrote:
Nice try, Tom, but it didn't work. I didn't ask you anything other than what you meant when you brought the topic up out of nowhere. You suggested peer review for the Edward de Vere article, you praised the article and my work on it (as Bishonen himself very specifically pointed out in another message on this page), and now you've reversed yourself and are trashing the Edward de Vere article in every way you can think of. It's quite a game you're playing.
As for recusing myself, why should I? The reason I've suggested that you and Nishidani should recuse yourselves is that you've both openly admitted bias. You've called the authorship controversy 'a crank theory' and Nishidani has called it 'an ideological mania'. No Wikipedia editor should be editing a page on which he displays bias of that nature, and certainly no Wikipedia editor who displays such bias should control the editing of the page in question, as you do with this one. I'm not biased. I think there's something to the authorship controversy, but I'm open to evidence to the contrary, and I've certainly never called the mainstream position 'a crank theory' or an 'ideological mania', nor would I. I respect the position held by the other side. You don't, and you and Nishidani should recuse yourselves from editing this page for that reason. NinaGreen ( talk) 16:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Tom, you're talking a blue streak, but the plain fact of the matter is that you praised the article and my work on it (as indicated by Bishonen's repetition of your praise on this Talk page), and now you're trashing the article (see your recent comments on this page). Not only that, but you personally gave me your blessing on 24 November to write the entire Edward de Vere article. Here's your e-mail to me:
but I do note that you have said this:
Nothing curious about it at all, other than the fact that you're keeping such close tabs on my activities. After editing the Wikipedia article, I put my own expanded version of Oxford's biography online on my website with references to primary sources, to dozens of DNB articles, to my article in Brief Chronicles, and to Christopher Paul's articles in Brief Chronicles and The Oxfordian which I could not use in the Wikipedia article on Edward de Vere. Readers on the internet can use the version on my website to access the primary sources if they wish to. NinaGreen ( talk) 23:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Bishonen, is this what Wikipedia administrators do - constantly berate an individual editor and encourage other editors and administrators to do the same? Perhaps you could point me to the Wikipedia policy which covers that. NinaGreen ( talk) 17:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Johnuniq, are you deliberately trying to be misleading? Count the number of actual messages by me on the page. What you're looking at are a very large number of minor edits such as fixing typos, changing a word in the original message etc. Can we get real here? NinaGreen ( talk) 02:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
NinaGreen has questioned exactly what "The history of this talk page shows that NinaGreen made 21 edits on 27 December 2010" meant. Yes, there were not 21 separate posts; there were 21 edits. Making, on average, one edit to this talk page every two hours since arriving here ( contributors) is not helpful to other editors. We are discussing an article, not how to right the wrongs of the world.
Since the matter has been raised a couple of times, here are the 21 diffs in question. Each diff is an edit to Talk:Shakespeare authorship question by NinaGreen ( talk · contribs) on 27 December 2010 (UTC times shown, then +/− number of characters).
Sorry to dump this here, but we will need to calm the situation on this page down fairly soon. Johnuniq ( talk) 09:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
There's an interesting game going on here. Editors and administrators of this page are all piling on, asking me question after question, and forcing me to respond to them, and then claiming that I'm violating Wikipedia policy by posting too frequently, all with an obvious objective in mind which I think anyone reading this page is clever enough to figure out without my spelling it out. And while this interesting game is being played out by the editors and administrators, my suggested revision for the lede paragraphs is just sitting there, totally ignored by the same editors and administrators. NinaGreen ( talk) 16:19, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Are you threatening to block me (see your comment on my Talk page) for Tom's personal attack on me?
NinaGreen ( talk) 18:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
LessHeard, I should have responded to your comment about the specious Tendentious Editing claim, which was simply the current complaint by the same people in a different guise. There is nothing about any of my editing which meets the Wikipedia definition of Tendentious Editing, and no examples which fit the definition were given. It was merely claimed that I was being repetitious, just as it is now being claimed that I post too much. And the cause was the same then as it is now. Tom, Paul and Nishidani all pile on, asking questions and making allegations, all directly specifically to me and at me, and when I reply, they complain to an administrator that I'm being repetitious or posting too much. The solution remains the same. Tom, Paul, Nishidani and John can limit their own comments. I'll then have nothing to which I'm forced to respond, and lo and behold, I won't be posting as much. And as I said, I hope we can then get on to consideration of my suggested revision to the lede of the SAQ article. And please note that both Tom and Nishidani are still trying to egg me on to reply to their questions in a new section entitled Peter Milward Redux, and I'm ignoring them (and speaking of repetitiousness, Tom's comment about colons is the umpteenth he has made on that point). NinaGreen ( talk) 21:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
They're all piling onto me, making allegations and demanding answers to their questions, and when I answer their questions or respond to their unfounded allegations, they complain to administrators that I'm posting too much
'And while this interesting game is being played out by the editors and administrators, my suggested revision for the lede paragraphs is just sitting there, totally ignored by the same editors and administrators.'
Queries are put, answered, ignored and forgotten. A quite precise stipulation of evidence required to make a generalization was formulated, Nina. I thought Milward answered all of your conditions. Before going ahead, I'd like to hear from you. Nina, do you accept that Milward is part of the 'Shakespearean establishment'? ( Nishidani ( talk) 22:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC))
Under "Television, magazines, and the Internet", the date given for "Uncovering Shakespeare: an Update" is obviously wrong: it should be 1992, not 1962. (sorry, wasn't sure how or where to enter this correction) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blubro ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Happy New Year to all! May 2011 bring you health, prosperity and happiness! NinaGreen ( talk) 17:16, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Three weeks ago I asked for an assessment from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative Views, with no response. Apparently that project is moribund. I left another message today proposing that the project's template be deleted from this talkpage as it is meaningless. Maybe that will wake somebody up, but I doubt it, given that the talk page appears to have been abandoned for quite some time. Is there any reason to keep such a fossil appendage to this page? I don't really care one way or another, it's just that when things become useless they clutter up the place, much like outdated textbooks that people hold on to for decades. Tom Reedy ( talk) 20:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
I have made a request for review of our neutrality problems with the neutrality Board. The extensive conflict and communication gaps do not show promise of resolution. Happy New Year! Zweigenbaum ( talk) 01:18, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, one of the best ways to determine if the article actually suffers from WP:NPOV problems would be to go ahead and nominate it for WP:FA status. The reviewers have no ax to grind and are more qualified to judge neutrality issues than anybody, since they routinely review articles for accuracy, neutrality, completeness, and style according to Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. With that in mind, I propose the article go forward to a formal FA review. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:37, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Bishonen, I agree with you that the article is too long. I've dropped my new lede paragraph into the article. It complies with WP:LEDE, shortens the article, and because it's brief and focussed, invites the reader to read on, which is one of the objectives of a lede as stated in WP:LEDE. I suggest that you not allow it to be reverted until all editors on this page have had an opportunity to put forward their views as to whether it's an improvement to the article, and more likely to have the article eventually accepted for FA status. NinaGreen ( talk) 17:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Bishonen, would you put my lede paragraph back and leave it in place for a few days? My lede paragraph, because it's brief and focussed, makes the overview and the images pop, and invites the reader to read on, which is one of the primary goals of a lede according to WP:LEDE. The old lede is wordy and uninviting, and loses any potential readers in a welter of words, turning them off. And there's nothing in the wordy and redundant old lede which is not comprised in the new lede and covered in extenso elsewhere in the article. Let's get on with improving the article. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:30, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I reverted Nina's replacement of the lede because major changes such as these need to be discussed. Several editors have responded to her proposal above but she has not responded to their queries. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:52, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I've deleted the statement immediately under the lede which referred to the terms Stratfordian and anti-Stratfordian on these grounds:
(1) The article needs to be shortened. (2) The statement is redundant; readers can easily figure the terms out for themselves. (3) The term 'jargon' is not neutral. (4) The statement introduces a topic (Shakespeare of Stratford as the PRIMARY, not the SOLE, author of the canon) which is not covered in the lede. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Here's the relevant definition of 'jargon' from the online OED, to which I subscribe. It's definitely not a neutral term:
All the other reasons mentioned still apply. NinaGreen ( talk) 22:07, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's be very clear. Tom did not change it because of 'Caesar's wife and all that'. Anyone who subscribes to the online OED can check for himself that there is no other meaning for 'jargon' listed which is applicable to the passage in question, and that the definition I quoted establishes that the word 'jargon' is a contemptuous term. NinaGreen ( talk) 23:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I've deleted the Overview section for the following reasons:
(1) The article needs to be shortened. (2) The organization of the article needs to be tightened up. (3) No Wikipedia article should need an overview. (4) The material is either redundant, or belongs in the anti-Stratfordian argument section.
A great deal of work needs to be done on this wordy, overly lengthy and poorly-organized article. We need to identify areas such as this where changes can be made rather than arguing endlessly over one specific change or other. NinaGreen ( talk) 22:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
It's helpful to keep discussion threads chronological, people. Seriously. A very short remark which needs no answer can be inserted to address a particular point, without feeling too much like an interruption. (Little jokes at ANI often are.) Otherwise, please don't top post. It makes it difficult for other editors to place their replies to you, and soon the timestamps will be all over the place—see for instance the messy section "FA proposal"— and the whole thread is impossible to untangle. Just a tip. Bishonen | talk 23:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC).
Bishonen has placed the following warning on my Talk page:
Two points. Firstly, it is my edits which are being reverted. I've made changes which meet Wikipedia guidelines and which improve an overly lengthy and poorly-organized article (what is the History section doing in the middle of the article, as an example of poor organization?). I can't see how I'm in violation of the 3RR rule when in every case I made the initial edit, and others reverted it.
Secondly, I've asked Bishonen to let my suggested lede paragraph be left in the article for a few days so editors and administrators can assess its visual impact, which is a great improvement for the reasons I've expressed elsewhere on this page and won't repeat here. Bishonen has not responded to that request, but has instead put a warning on my Talk page, again claiming I'm in violation of Wikipedia policies when I'm not in violation (as happened with his earlier warning about Tendentious Editing when I'd done nothing which constitutes Tendentious Editing since I was merely discussion matters on the Talk page for the article. At the same time, Bishonen has ignored clear example of Tendentious Editing on Tom Reedy's part (refusing to provide the source for the Milward citation). What's going on here? NinaGreen ( talk) 23:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Bishonen, the plain language of the section to which you referred me indicates that it's the second editor who performs a revert, not the first. I edited the article several times, deleting superfluous and repetitious material in accordance with your statement on this page that the article needed to be shortened, and it was my edit, in every instance, which was instantly reverted before anyone even had a chance to look at it. Also, you haven't addressed my question as to why you falsely accused me of Tendentious Editing when the examples you gave had nothing to do with editing at all, while you ignored Tom's very specific instance of actual Tendentious Editing, his refusal to provide the Milward citation. Nor have you answered my earlier question about how you became involved in trying to force me to accept a voluntary ban on the false implication that I had posted 21 actual messages on 27 December. If you are as busy and stressed as you suggest, perhaps you could stop wasting time accusing me of violations of Wikipedia policy which I haven't committed, and focus instead on actual violations by others such as the example I've given of Tom's Tendentious Editing or Tom's ad hominem attack on my alleged 'Google scholarship'. I'm doing my utmost to follow Wikipedia policy, and I don't welcome being regularly falsely accused by an administrator of not following Wikipedia policy. NinaGreen ( talk) 03:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
you ignored Tom's very specific instance of actual Tendentious Editing, his refusal to provide the Milward citation
Not content with ownership of the SAQ article, Tom has now started censoring comments on the Peer Review page. Earlier I posted this comment here and on the Peer Review page to inform editors on the latter as to Tom's ownership of the SAQ article and his refusal to allow anyone else to edit it:
When I went to the Peer Review page just now, I found that Tom had deleted my comment, thus censoring what editors of the Peer Review page are allowed to see concerning the article they are supposed to be peer reviewing. NinaGreen ( talk) 23:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Notice
and message = {{subst:WQA-notice}} ~~~~
(for WQA) or {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~
(for ANI).Johnuniq, if it is not appropriate to complain about other editors on the Talk page of an article, why have you complained about me on this Talk page more than once, and why have you sat quietly by while other editors on this Talk page have unrelentingly attacked and complained about me? This is merely another example of the double standard which obtains on this Talk page and with respect to the SAQ article. It's long past time this stopped, and every editor is treated equally on this Talk page and with respect to the SAQ article. It's small wonder that the number of editors willing to work on this page has dwindled to Tom Reedy and his close associates. NinaGreen ( talk) 00:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
You were dead wrong in making this complaint about me, and you have yet to apologize both for your error and for getting an administrator involved in it. And as for improving the article, as I've said to Nishidani below, the article will be improved when Tom stops owning it and lets someone besides himself edit it, and when you stop supporting him in owning the article and reverting edits. NinaGreen ( talk) 05:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I've added two 'citation needed' tags to the final paragraph in the lede. In my view, the current lede should be replaced by the new version I've suggested, but in the interim, these statements in the current lede appear to be entirely unsupported. 'They' includes the 'prominent public figures' in the preceding sentence, and since whoever Nicholl referred to as 'prominent public figures' aren't identified, there needs to be a citation supporting the contention that the 'prominent public figures' named by Nicholl, whoever they are, are 'campaigning' etc. There also needs to be a citation for the second sentence other than Niederkorn, because Niederkorn says nothing about 'campaigning', or 'gaining public acceptance of the authorship question as a legitimate field of academic inquiry' or 'promoting one or another of the various authorship candidates', all of which is synthesis and original research.
NinaGreen ( talk) 01:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Nishidani's removal of the 'citation needed' tags constitutes Tendentious Editing, and I trust administrators of this page will require that he restore them immediately. The SAQ article neither identifies the 'prominent public figures' not establishes that they are 'campaigning', and the rest of the second sentence is pure synthesis and original research because nothing of the kind is found in the cited source, Niederkorn, as anyone who takes the trouble to look at Niederkorn's article through the link in the footnotes can readily see. NinaGreen ( talk) 05:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Obviously I am not the only one who thinks the SAQ article need serious pruning. Here are Xover's comments from the Peer Review page. Notice that he says the article has 'a weight issue. Not a WP:WEIGHT ISSUE; but an overweight issue!. Xover also says that '…I (very reluctantly) believe section 4 should be removed from this article entirely.'. Xover also has serious criticisms of other aspects of the article. Let's get on with improving it! NinaGreen ( talk) 03:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
There is no need to reproduce the comments when a link will do. this is one reason why this page becomes so hard to navigate. You also don't need to argue Xover's case for him. Tom Reedy ( talk) 03:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh, goodness me; I've not had such an… exuberant reaction to a review in… well, ever. Let's see…
I think that just about covers the comments so far. Do please feel free to ask if there is something still unclear; and I'll look forward to a constructive discussion here to determine if there is consensus for any changes in the article and, if so, precisely what form they should take. In particular, if the changes I've suggested in the review comments are insufficiently specific please do let me know and I'll try to fix it to make clear what I mean. I also have a sandbox where I've made the more sweeping changes mentioned to see what effect they'd have, should anyone be curious as to what they would look like in practice. Finally, I don't think I can praise you enough on the great job you've done on this article, perhaps especially considering the surrounding controversy and related WikiDrama. I've long hoped for a FA-quality article on this subject, but I've not previously dared believe it possible. Kudos! -- Xover ( talk) 11:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, you are the one who don't listen. In the month or so I've been involved with Wikipedia I haven't seen a single suggestion for substantive editing put forward by anyone which you've accepted as a valid point. And it is your behaviour which is offensive behaviour. I've drawn attention to several personal attacks you've made on me, and there are others which are legion which I haven't specifically drawn attention to. In fact any objective observer who were to go through the comments made by you and you allies on this Talk page would see that they constitute one long unrelenting attack. You and your associates are able to get away with this behaviour which violates every tenet of relevant Wikipedia policy because administrators who involve themselves with this page do nothing to stop you. NinaGreen ( talk) 22:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom Reedy has posted on Wikiquette. Here is the response I just posted there:
┌─────────────────────────────────┘ This is not an etiquette issue or an issue of 'editing style'. It concerns Tom Reedy's admitted bias and his complete control of the SAQ article which I raised on the Peer Review page today in the comments below. These comments were twice censored by Tom Reedy, who deleted them from the Peer Review page so that the editors doing the peer review of the SAQ article could not see them.
It is quite true, as Tom admits, that he has made completely inappropriate personal attacks on me, only one of which he has apologized for. But in addition to Tom Reedy's unrelenting personal attacks, the principal issues are Tom's admitted bias (of which details are available on the SAQ talk page), and his complete control of the editing of the SAQ article, of which not a single syllable can be altered without Tom's express permission, completely contrary to Wikipedia's policy that no editor owns a Wikipedia article. It seems beyond dispute that no article should be put forward for peer review by an editor who has admitted bias concerning the topic of the article and who completely controls the editing of every syllable of the article and purports to 'own' the article.NinaGreen (talk) 03:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
The SAQ article will be vastly improved when Tom stops owning the article and allows someone besides himself to edit it, and when you stop supporting Tom's ownership of the article, which is completely contrary to Wikipedia policy. NinaGreen ( talk) 05:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Nishidani, you're hardly a judge of Tom's neutrality as an editor. You've admitted equal bias, having called the subject of this article 'this ideological mania' earlier on this page. The problem with the editing of the SAQ article is that both you and Tom have admitted that you are biased. The SAQ article, which you state you have jointly edited, reflects that bias, and naturally you're both unwilling to have any other editor remove the bias. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum Endorse the remarks of Nina Green above. I have experienced the same intransigence and dismissal on pretextual grounds. Any initiative to bring this article into factual accuracy fails by fiat of the writer and his cohort. Being written by a convinced opponent of any evidence or information premised by competing theories, Reedy's article has a clear conflict of interest. That condition cannot be masked by inserted a different word or two. A poison of condemnation mars the text. Now the author(s?) position seems to be that too much work has gone into the(ir?) effort for them to sanction alternative editing, a position which mirrors the very self-protective doctrines by the Stratfordian Shakespeare majority in question. Recent appeals to Wikipedia etiquette when so confronted by incoming editors represent another variation on resistance. The indecency of lurking until Ms Green goes on vacation so as to reverse her efforts is illustrative of Mr. Reedy's, et. al., concept of etiquette. Surely not admirable ethics. Rejecting the point/counterpoint solution to the neutrality deficit constitutes yet another example. There is also the historical record of someone being suspended from the editing process due to similarly? opposing this ideologically driven approach. In general, it is highly unproductive to condemn, to reject, and to resist the advance of knowledge. No one need fear it. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 15:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC) Zweigenbaum
Hmm. Someone's "Baseless and repetitious complaints". This section started off as Tom Reedy's comments on Wikipedia etiquette. Where is it, Tom? Start out by learning the language of your adversary. Read a few books as a gesture of good will. I recommend The Six Loves of Shake-Speare, Louis P. Benezet, PhD, 1958 pp. 99-126; Malice Aforethought, Paul Hemenway Altrocchi, MD, 2010, pp. 102-120; Great Oxford, Richard Malim, Ed., 2004, pp. 140-50. It would take about an hour. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 08:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I think this is a very nice article. It is set out with a clear logical structure. It presents the main arguments of both sides of the debate. It rightly makes the point that most serious Shakespeare scholars do not support any of the alternative theories. It is well written so that a newbie (me) can come along and learn a lot with little effort.
OK, the page is a bit too long. But I can see no case for deleting whole sections of something that is so carefully written.
There also a bit of bias, with a tendency to over-ridicule the alternative views, by presenting them in their more extreme forms.
As a small step on these two minor points I have deleted the paragraph that started "Shakespeare, Oxford, and Bacon spoke to Percy Allen from the spirit world in 1947..."
I see a lot of bickering on the talk page, but very little actual criticism of the content of the article. If anyone has any specific criticisms of the material, let's hear them. Remember, the purpose of the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. Poujeaux ( talk) 16:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I've always been troubled by this phrasing:-
highly visible and diverse assortment
The notion of 'Diverse' is already contained in 'assortment', which is a grouping of heterogeneous elements. You can't get rid of it by eliding 'diverse', since many of the groups are not 'highly visible'. In fact 'highly visible' practically refers to the major group of de Vereans within the assortment, that includes Marlovians, Baconians, Derbyites, etc etc., most of whom do not engage in stunts for publicity, or stage events to capture the public eye. So I think the 5 words should be reformulated, to conform to the exemplary precision of most of the rest of the text. I know this is a brain-twister Tom, and sorry for the bother. I have a hangover and can't come up with a variant at the moment. Nishidani ( talk) 22:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad I'm not the only one given to such hair-splitting. I think assortment connotes selection rather than diversity as such; that is, an assortment suggests a couple to choose from unless it is specified that the assortment in question is rich, vast, comprehensive, or diverse. I think the original phrasing can stand untouched. -- Xover ( talk) 06:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Are administrators on this page monitoring Nishidani and Tom Reedy personal attacks, including use of profanity and revelation of personal information?
Nina, are you still planning to leave mid-January for a few months? If so, maybe we can get some work done in your absence, and it might save Wikipedia having to buy a new server. I wouldn't want my donation this year to have to be spent archiving your baseless and repetitious complaints. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
NinaGreen ( talk) 19:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, I'll leave it up to the administrators involved with this page to decided whether they "monitor" anybody, and to decide whether your and Nishidani's comments are inappropriate and in violation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. That's their job, not yours. NinaGreen ( talk) 20:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The lack of documentary evidence for Shakespeare's education is a staple of anti-Stratfordian arguments, as well as his literacy or lack of it.
The italicized clause seems unnecessary, as it is implicit in what precedes. It would mean 'Shakespeare's literacy is a staple of anti-Stratfordian arguments' whereas his 'ostensible lack of literacy' is the gravamen of this part of their hypothesis. I think the clause could be snipped without loss. Nishidani ( talk) 23:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Point Counterpoint (ignoring Aldous Huxley). I think this was the problem of the earlier version, and made it most troublesome to edit, because the number of itemized talking points in the fringe literature is infinite, though most of it is ignored as simply wrongheaded, and thus cannot be replied to by using reliable sources. Hamiltonstone's review, unless memory errs, asked it to be corrected ?), with sections separated. Both Tom and I don't and never have really thought a rebuttal section is required. But experience tells one there are many readers, particularly those unfamiliar with the literature, the period, and scholarship, who have no awareness of the state of the art of contemporary academic opinion on this. There are many subtextual elements in these sorts of articles that leave room, if one is unguarded, for leading naïve readers astray, and that is one reason why a fair exposition of the fringe view, followed by a brief exposition of the mainstream view, seems required. It is not strictly a point counterpoint, item by item, to and fro as far as I can see. Nishidani ( talk) 08:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I think I've explained my reasoning for this suggestion as well as I can, and as it appears to be ineffectual, I'll drop this as unlikely to ever achieve consensus. There is a significant component of subjective judgement built in to the argument (there is no bright line rule for article length); I am myself only half persuaded on the point; and it can easily be remedied at a later date if it should become an issue at FAC. -- Xover ( talk) 02:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Looking closer at the Historical evidence for Shakespeare's authorship section for a different reason I noticed a couple of issues.
First, the 4th and 5th paragraphs are entirely uncited. Generally there should be a cite at least for each paragraph. In addition, none of the direct quotes in these sections are cited ( WP:V requires citations for all direct quotes). I've placed some {{ cn}} tags to point the way.
Finally, the quotes in the 4th paragraph themselves are a bit hard to read and confusing. I'm assuming the names each quote starts with are the names of the Stationers registering the works in question, but it's really hard to parse what I'm guessing is tabular data when simply serialized into flat text. Could the names perhaps be omitted or placed in parenthesis after the quote? Further reducing readability is the use of links inside the quotations. I see why they're there, but one should generally not link terms inside quotes ( MOS:LINK#General points on linking style, bullet 4), in order to maintain readability. -- Xover ( talk) 17:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I drew attention to the problem with this paragraph in the lede earlier on this page, and my comment that the unidentified 'prominent public figures' should be identified so that readers could determine for themselves whether they can logically be included among the alleged 'They' who are campaigning. Tom then added Shapiro as a further reference for the first sentence below, and as anyone can see, virtually everyone whom Shapiro names on that page is dead, and can hardly be included among the alleged 'They' who are campaigning.
Tom needs to explain exactly who among the 'prominent public figures' named by Nicholl and Shapiro (Tom's sources) actually is still alive and 'campaigning' on the authorship issue.
And as I indicated earlier, this paragraph should be deleted from the lede for two reasons. Firstly, it conflates the living with the dead, and secondly, it's an entire paragraph in the lede about a 'highly visible and diverse assortment of supporters' and 'some prominent public figures' who are never identified or dealt with in extenso later in the article, so what is this paragraph doing in the lede anyway, given the stated function of the lede in WP:LEDE? NinaGreen ( talk) 19:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I just noticed that there is a link to the Nicholl article in the references, and he's merely partially quoting Shapiro:
The last time I checked, they were ALL dead (and let's not forget that that was Tom's sole source before I raised the issue earlier on this page). So why has Tom included them in the SAQ lede as alive and CAMPAIGNING on the authorship issue? The paragraph needs to be deleted. NinaGreen ( talk)
Paul, actually I don't KNOW all these things. But leaving that aside, what's the point of trying to establish what I know or don't know? We're concerning with accurately sourcing things for a Wikipedia article. Where in Wikipedia policy does it state that if Nina Green knows something, it doesn't need to be accurately sourced in the SAQ article? NinaGreen ( talk) 02:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
This is exactly the same behaviour past Oxfordian editors exhibited and the reason why so many extended quotes accompany the references in the lede and other sections. The tactic of then selectively quoting the given reference is also a familiar example of disruptive and tendentious behaviour that I thought was ancient history on this page until the past few weeks. Tom Reedy ( talk) 02:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, this is "exactly" why earlier editors challenged your statements! It's because, as in this instance, the sources you cite DON'T SUPPORT THE STATEMENTS YOU CITE THEM FOR! At most, the sources you cite support a few isolated words in whatever it is you've written. All the rest is your interpretation, synthesis and original research. When you start citing sources which actually fully support what you've written in the article, the challenges will stop. It's you that's the problem, not those challenging you. NinaGreen ( talk) 02:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Johnuniq, I have explained the problems with the final paragraph of the lede clearly and succinctly many times over, and if anyone were actually listening, the paragraph would have been deleted long ago. NinaGreen ( talk) 03:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Another point which could and should be made is that the Nicholl citation is merely a book review of Contested Will, and logically Shapiro should be cited, not Nicholl, for anything found in Contested Will. If Nicholl goes beyond what can be found in Shapiro, then one has to look very carefully at those additional comments to determine whether they should be cited in the SAQ article, considering that Nicholl is a journalist, not someone with a Ph.D. in Elizabethan literature or someone who teaches Shakespeare courses at a university. NinaGreen ( talk) 18:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Those primarily responsible for the SAQ article, Tom Reedy and Nishidani, seem unable to appreciate how completely disorganized the article is. It goes back and forth between the current state of the authorship controversy and the historical aspect. Moreover the article strives to prove that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the Shakespeare canon. This distorts the focus of the entire article, which should be on the development and current status of the authorship controversy. The article should take as a given that it's the consensus of the Shakespeare establishment and the general public that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the canon, and focus on the issue potential readers of the article obviously want to know about, namely how did the controversy develop, what evidence is there for it, and what is its current status. I've made a number of edits in which I've attempted to address aspects of the lack of organization in the article, but they've all been instantly reverted by Tom Reedy and Nishidani before editors have had a chance to consider them in context to see how they address the organizational problems. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, take a deep breath yourself :-), and notice that in every instance I have put my edits up for discussion on the Talk page. Take another deep breath :-), and consider that giving specific reasons why a Wikipedia article lacks organization is NOT a personal attack, nor does it have anything to do with 'assuming good faith' or 'humility'. Take and third deep breath :-), and consider that asking that potential edits be left in place long enough for editors and administrators of this page to consider their impact in context is about as far removed from 'disruptive behaviour' as anything could possibly be. The SAQ article is either unfocussed in terms of its primary objective (informing potential readers about the authorship controversy) or it isn't. The SAQ article is either disorganized, or it isn't. Those issues need to be considered objectively. I've looked at the SAQ article objectively, having had the advantage of not having been involved with it, and I can see that it needs serious and substantial improvement along both those lines, and that in the process the article could be considerably shortened by removing a lot of the redundancy in which it abounds. NinaGreen ( talk) 20:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, as is evident elsewhere on this page, I've made SPECIFIC suggestions concerning the lack of organization, particularly with respect to the lede. Let's focus on the lede. My version of the lede eliminates a number of problems which I've identified in the current lede. Perhaps my version can still be improved upon. The best way to do that is to place my version in the article for a few days so that editors can (1) see how it increases the visual impact of the article and entices potential readers, rather than losing them in a welter of words as the current lede does, and (2) whether there is anything in the current lede which would not be better eliminated entirely OR placed elsewhere in the article. What's difficult about that? Nothing. NinaGreen ( talk) 21:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, no, it is not putting the cart before the horse. The only way this lengthy and disorganized article will ever regain focus is to begin with a focussed lede, and prune and reorganize the article in conformity with it. Also, let's not confuse asking other editors for help with stating that other editors are in violation of Wikipedia policy when they ARE in violation of Wikipedia policy. The final paragraph of the lede IS in violation of Wikipedia policy. The cited sources don't support the statements made in it, and the latter consist of interpretation, synthesis and original research. NinaGreen ( talk) 03:10, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Bishonen, if there's something important that's been LEFT OUT of my version of the lede, just tell me what it is. Don't just tell me the lede's too short, and that Wikipedia policy requires a long lede for a long article. What's missing? That's what I want to know. NinaGreen ( talk) 03:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
This one? I'll try, since you request it. Your version covers a) the history of the authorship question, b) the state of the authorship question today. I.e. it's all about the section "History of the authorship question", with its subsections. That's it. Obviously everything can't be explicated in the lede, but I think the following matters/sections, which your version doesn't allude to, need to be mentioned:
(These things are all mentioned in the lede currently in place.)
Can someone please tell me why the entire History of the Authorship Question section in the SAQ article cannot be deleted from the SAQ article and incorporated in the separate Wikipedia article History of the Shakespeare Authorship Question? NinaGreen ( talk) 03:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
My question remains unanswered. Xover has suggested on the Peer Review page (copied elsewhere on this page) that the very lengthy History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article should be deleted in its entirety. There is another separate Wikipedia article entitled History of the Shakespeare Authorship Question. Why the duplication? NinaGreen ( talk) 17:46, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, rather than just admit you made an error which mislead me and doubtless mislead others, you then go on to find fault with me for having been mislead(!), and avoid the real issue, which is that there is a obvious and entirely unnecessary duplication. There is absolutely no need for two extremely lengthy and detailed expositions of the history of the Shakespeare authorship controversy in Wikipedia, one a separate article, and the other a very lengthy section in the SAQ article. The latter needs to be merged into the former. Let's get on with doing something productive, i.e. merging the latter into the former. NinaGreen ( talk) 02:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Nishidani, you raise some good points. The bottom line is that there should not be two lengthy sections in Wikipedia on the same topic, one an independent article and one a very lengthy section in the SAQ article. As you suggest, one solution would be to delete the independent article and move the lengthy section in the SAQ article over to replace it. Could we not all have a close look at the two 'historical' accounts to see whether that's feasible, and then try to reach consensus on that point? NinaGreen ( talk) 04:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, re 'the praise it has garnered from independent reviewers'. How many independent reviewers have praised the article, and where are their comments to be found? I realize you've put a lot of work in on the article, but I don't think it's appropriate to foreclose further editing on the basis that it has been praised by a handful of unnamed independent reviewers. NinaGreen ( talk) 06:36, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
This is probably not going to prove to be a popular comment around here, but I just read through the History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article and had the distinct impression I was rereading Shapiro's Contested Will, which I read a month or so ago. Is there any point in rehashing Shapiro's book in this section of the SAQ article? Would it not be preferable to refer to the fact that all this material on the history of the authorship controversy can be found in Contested Will? NinaGreen ( talk) 05:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, the problem is that I felt I was reading Shapiro when I read this section of the SAQ article. There are a lot of different citations in that section of the article, not just citations from Shapiro, but nonetheless reading that section gave me the feeling that I was reading Shapiro. There just might be too much similarity between the two. NinaGreen ( talk) 06:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
The SAQ article contains 7 links to other 'main' articles. The SAQ article repeats much of the information contained in these 7 'main' articles. The History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article is about the same length as the alleged 'main' article on the History of the Shakespeare Authorship. All this duplication makes no sense. Decisions need to be made about what belongs where. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I have posted a notice on Nina's talk page asking her to cease her disruptive behaviour and to conform her participation to Wikipedia policies and procedures. WP:RFC/USER procedure requires that at least two editors contact an RfC/U candidate on their talk page about their behaviour before filing a case. If any other editor feels the same as I do about this, I'd appreciate your input there. Tom Reedy ( talk) 05:26, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
All my comments on this Talk page concern improvements to the SAQ article, and when I made any edits (all of which were instantly reverted) I placed them for discussion on the Talk page. The untrue allegation of 'disruptive behaviour' constitutes a personal ad hominem attack, contrary to Wikipedia policy. NinaGreen ( talk) 17:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Johnuniq, let's be very clear. To falsely accuse anyone of 'disruptive behaviour' is defamation, and you have now repeated the defamation twice. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:23, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | → | Archive 25 |
Above (23:33, 29 December 2010 UTC), NinaGreen proposed that the first paragraph of the lead, and the start of the second, be replaced with:
Style here is that the first sentence should define the topic, so the current lead starts properly, while the proposal would be too vague for someone wondering what the SAQ is. The proposal puts an emphasis on the past 150 years that I think is misleading. It is often true, and widely believed, that developments in the past 150 years have moved many fields (particularly science) from a primitive basis to proven and useful knowledge. Accordingly, the proposed wording may suggest that modern understanding (i.e. the correct view) is that Shakespeare was "merely a front". A more due reference to time might be [Bate 1998]: No one in Shakespeare's lifetime or the first two hundred years after his death expressed the slightest doubt about his authorship. The proposal changes the second paragraph from "Scholars contend..." to "Scholars suggest...". That's quite a big change which goes to the heart of the issue: do those who are known to be scholars in this field contend or merely suggest? My understanding is that "contend" is the more accurate term. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
'The consensus of the Shakespeare establishment and the public at large is that William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon was the author of the works traditionally attributed to him. However . .'
a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class (as of a nation) b often capitalized : a controlling group <the literary establishment>
Nishidani points out above that "Actually, just for the record, Tom did try, without success, to inform Nina of this crucial distinction [between WikiProject and policy], in his long reply on the 27th:'the Wikipedia Alternative Views project is not a policy.'" [1]
Yes. I'm sorry to say lack of success in informing Nina is what I have come to expect; it's one of the big problems on this page, and wastes everybody's time. Her talkpage editing all goes in one direction: lots of output, little or no intake. The editors of this page have been following the important wikipedia principle of generosity in teaching newcomers; but it doesn't seem to, how shall I put it... to take. Nina ignores it or wikilawyers to prove she knows better, whenever anybody addresses her. I mean, whenever, as she puts it, she's "lectured and criticized and harped at on policy by virtually every administrator and editor of this page since I came on board as an editor, with no praise from anyone for the fact that I almost single-handedly edited the entire Edward de Vere article". [2] Also for the record, Tom did praise her work on the de Vere article: "Thanks for all you've done; it's good to have someone work on it who has a deep background." [3] Also, on her user talk, he praised her work on the Shakespeare authorship question. I don't know why those posts don't count as "praise from anyone", Nina? Have you ever said anything half as civil to Tom about his work? Bishonen | talk 17:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC).
Talk about moving the goalposts! From the Talk page for the Edward de Vere article:
Tom, I'm not going to bother responding to your other points because you're just going round the same mulberry bush without answering anything,
Tom, you wrote:
Nice try, Tom, but it didn't work. I didn't ask you anything other than what you meant when you brought the topic up out of nowhere. You suggested peer review for the Edward de Vere article, you praised the article and my work on it (as Bishonen himself very specifically pointed out in another message on this page), and now you've reversed yourself and are trashing the Edward de Vere article in every way you can think of. It's quite a game you're playing.
As for recusing myself, why should I? The reason I've suggested that you and Nishidani should recuse yourselves is that you've both openly admitted bias. You've called the authorship controversy 'a crank theory' and Nishidani has called it 'an ideological mania'. No Wikipedia editor should be editing a page on which he displays bias of that nature, and certainly no Wikipedia editor who displays such bias should control the editing of the page in question, as you do with this one. I'm not biased. I think there's something to the authorship controversy, but I'm open to evidence to the contrary, and I've certainly never called the mainstream position 'a crank theory' or an 'ideological mania', nor would I. I respect the position held by the other side. You don't, and you and Nishidani should recuse yourselves from editing this page for that reason. NinaGreen ( talk) 16:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Tom, you're talking a blue streak, but the plain fact of the matter is that you praised the article and my work on it (as indicated by Bishonen's repetition of your praise on this Talk page), and now you're trashing the article (see your recent comments on this page). Not only that, but you personally gave me your blessing on 24 November to write the entire Edward de Vere article. Here's your e-mail to me:
but I do note that you have said this:
Nothing curious about it at all, other than the fact that you're keeping such close tabs on my activities. After editing the Wikipedia article, I put my own expanded version of Oxford's biography online on my website with references to primary sources, to dozens of DNB articles, to my article in Brief Chronicles, and to Christopher Paul's articles in Brief Chronicles and The Oxfordian which I could not use in the Wikipedia article on Edward de Vere. Readers on the internet can use the version on my website to access the primary sources if they wish to. NinaGreen ( talk) 23:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Bishonen, is this what Wikipedia administrators do - constantly berate an individual editor and encourage other editors and administrators to do the same? Perhaps you could point me to the Wikipedia policy which covers that. NinaGreen ( talk) 17:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Johnuniq, are you deliberately trying to be misleading? Count the number of actual messages by me on the page. What you're looking at are a very large number of minor edits such as fixing typos, changing a word in the original message etc. Can we get real here? NinaGreen ( talk) 02:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
NinaGreen has questioned exactly what "The history of this talk page shows that NinaGreen made 21 edits on 27 December 2010" meant. Yes, there were not 21 separate posts; there were 21 edits. Making, on average, one edit to this talk page every two hours since arriving here ( contributors) is not helpful to other editors. We are discussing an article, not how to right the wrongs of the world.
Since the matter has been raised a couple of times, here are the 21 diffs in question. Each diff is an edit to Talk:Shakespeare authorship question by NinaGreen ( talk · contribs) on 27 December 2010 (UTC times shown, then +/− number of characters).
Sorry to dump this here, but we will need to calm the situation on this page down fairly soon. Johnuniq ( talk) 09:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
There's an interesting game going on here. Editors and administrators of this page are all piling on, asking me question after question, and forcing me to respond to them, and then claiming that I'm violating Wikipedia policy by posting too frequently, all with an obvious objective in mind which I think anyone reading this page is clever enough to figure out without my spelling it out. And while this interesting game is being played out by the editors and administrators, my suggested revision for the lede paragraphs is just sitting there, totally ignored by the same editors and administrators. NinaGreen ( talk) 16:19, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Are you threatening to block me (see your comment on my Talk page) for Tom's personal attack on me?
NinaGreen ( talk) 18:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
LessHeard, I should have responded to your comment about the specious Tendentious Editing claim, which was simply the current complaint by the same people in a different guise. There is nothing about any of my editing which meets the Wikipedia definition of Tendentious Editing, and no examples which fit the definition were given. It was merely claimed that I was being repetitious, just as it is now being claimed that I post too much. And the cause was the same then as it is now. Tom, Paul and Nishidani all pile on, asking questions and making allegations, all directly specifically to me and at me, and when I reply, they complain to an administrator that I'm being repetitious or posting too much. The solution remains the same. Tom, Paul, Nishidani and John can limit their own comments. I'll then have nothing to which I'm forced to respond, and lo and behold, I won't be posting as much. And as I said, I hope we can then get on to consideration of my suggested revision to the lede of the SAQ article. And please note that both Tom and Nishidani are still trying to egg me on to reply to their questions in a new section entitled Peter Milward Redux, and I'm ignoring them (and speaking of repetitiousness, Tom's comment about colons is the umpteenth he has made on that point). NinaGreen ( talk) 21:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
They're all piling onto me, making allegations and demanding answers to their questions, and when I answer their questions or respond to their unfounded allegations, they complain to administrators that I'm posting too much
'And while this interesting game is being played out by the editors and administrators, my suggested revision for the lede paragraphs is just sitting there, totally ignored by the same editors and administrators.'
Queries are put, answered, ignored and forgotten. A quite precise stipulation of evidence required to make a generalization was formulated, Nina. I thought Milward answered all of your conditions. Before going ahead, I'd like to hear from you. Nina, do you accept that Milward is part of the 'Shakespearean establishment'? ( Nishidani ( talk) 22:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC))
Under "Television, magazines, and the Internet", the date given for "Uncovering Shakespeare: an Update" is obviously wrong: it should be 1992, not 1962. (sorry, wasn't sure how or where to enter this correction) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blubro ( talk • contribs) 02:55, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Happy New Year to all! May 2011 bring you health, prosperity and happiness! NinaGreen ( talk) 17:16, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Three weeks ago I asked for an assessment from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative Views, with no response. Apparently that project is moribund. I left another message today proposing that the project's template be deleted from this talkpage as it is meaningless. Maybe that will wake somebody up, but I doubt it, given that the talk page appears to have been abandoned for quite some time. Is there any reason to keep such a fossil appendage to this page? I don't really care one way or another, it's just that when things become useless they clutter up the place, much like outdated textbooks that people hold on to for decades. Tom Reedy ( talk) 20:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
I have made a request for review of our neutrality problems with the neutrality Board. The extensive conflict and communication gaps do not show promise of resolution. Happy New Year! Zweigenbaum ( talk) 01:18, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, one of the best ways to determine if the article actually suffers from WP:NPOV problems would be to go ahead and nominate it for WP:FA status. The reviewers have no ax to grind and are more qualified to judge neutrality issues than anybody, since they routinely review articles for accuracy, neutrality, completeness, and style according to Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. With that in mind, I propose the article go forward to a formal FA review. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:37, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Bishonen, I agree with you that the article is too long. I've dropped my new lede paragraph into the article. It complies with WP:LEDE, shortens the article, and because it's brief and focussed, invites the reader to read on, which is one of the objectives of a lede as stated in WP:LEDE. I suggest that you not allow it to be reverted until all editors on this page have had an opportunity to put forward their views as to whether it's an improvement to the article, and more likely to have the article eventually accepted for FA status. NinaGreen ( talk) 17:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Bishonen, would you put my lede paragraph back and leave it in place for a few days? My lede paragraph, because it's brief and focussed, makes the overview and the images pop, and invites the reader to read on, which is one of the primary goals of a lede according to WP:LEDE. The old lede is wordy and uninviting, and loses any potential readers in a welter of words, turning them off. And there's nothing in the wordy and redundant old lede which is not comprised in the new lede and covered in extenso elsewhere in the article. Let's get on with improving the article. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:30, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I reverted Nina's replacement of the lede because major changes such as these need to be discussed. Several editors have responded to her proposal above but she has not responded to their queries. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:52, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I've deleted the statement immediately under the lede which referred to the terms Stratfordian and anti-Stratfordian on these grounds:
(1) The article needs to be shortened. (2) The statement is redundant; readers can easily figure the terms out for themselves. (3) The term 'jargon' is not neutral. (4) The statement introduces a topic (Shakespeare of Stratford as the PRIMARY, not the SOLE, author of the canon) which is not covered in the lede. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Here's the relevant definition of 'jargon' from the online OED, to which I subscribe. It's definitely not a neutral term:
All the other reasons mentioned still apply. NinaGreen ( talk) 22:07, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's be very clear. Tom did not change it because of 'Caesar's wife and all that'. Anyone who subscribes to the online OED can check for himself that there is no other meaning for 'jargon' listed which is applicable to the passage in question, and that the definition I quoted establishes that the word 'jargon' is a contemptuous term. NinaGreen ( talk) 23:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I've deleted the Overview section for the following reasons:
(1) The article needs to be shortened. (2) The organization of the article needs to be tightened up. (3) No Wikipedia article should need an overview. (4) The material is either redundant, or belongs in the anti-Stratfordian argument section.
A great deal of work needs to be done on this wordy, overly lengthy and poorly-organized article. We need to identify areas such as this where changes can be made rather than arguing endlessly over one specific change or other. NinaGreen ( talk) 22:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
It's helpful to keep discussion threads chronological, people. Seriously. A very short remark which needs no answer can be inserted to address a particular point, without feeling too much like an interruption. (Little jokes at ANI often are.) Otherwise, please don't top post. It makes it difficult for other editors to place their replies to you, and soon the timestamps will be all over the place—see for instance the messy section "FA proposal"— and the whole thread is impossible to untangle. Just a tip. Bishonen | talk 23:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC).
Bishonen has placed the following warning on my Talk page:
Two points. Firstly, it is my edits which are being reverted. I've made changes which meet Wikipedia guidelines and which improve an overly lengthy and poorly-organized article (what is the History section doing in the middle of the article, as an example of poor organization?). I can't see how I'm in violation of the 3RR rule when in every case I made the initial edit, and others reverted it.
Secondly, I've asked Bishonen to let my suggested lede paragraph be left in the article for a few days so editors and administrators can assess its visual impact, which is a great improvement for the reasons I've expressed elsewhere on this page and won't repeat here. Bishonen has not responded to that request, but has instead put a warning on my Talk page, again claiming I'm in violation of Wikipedia policies when I'm not in violation (as happened with his earlier warning about Tendentious Editing when I'd done nothing which constitutes Tendentious Editing since I was merely discussion matters on the Talk page for the article. At the same time, Bishonen has ignored clear example of Tendentious Editing on Tom Reedy's part (refusing to provide the source for the Milward citation). What's going on here? NinaGreen ( talk) 23:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Bishonen, the plain language of the section to which you referred me indicates that it's the second editor who performs a revert, not the first. I edited the article several times, deleting superfluous and repetitious material in accordance with your statement on this page that the article needed to be shortened, and it was my edit, in every instance, which was instantly reverted before anyone even had a chance to look at it. Also, you haven't addressed my question as to why you falsely accused me of Tendentious Editing when the examples you gave had nothing to do with editing at all, while you ignored Tom's very specific instance of actual Tendentious Editing, his refusal to provide the Milward citation. Nor have you answered my earlier question about how you became involved in trying to force me to accept a voluntary ban on the false implication that I had posted 21 actual messages on 27 December. If you are as busy and stressed as you suggest, perhaps you could stop wasting time accusing me of violations of Wikipedia policy which I haven't committed, and focus instead on actual violations by others such as the example I've given of Tom's Tendentious Editing or Tom's ad hominem attack on my alleged 'Google scholarship'. I'm doing my utmost to follow Wikipedia policy, and I don't welcome being regularly falsely accused by an administrator of not following Wikipedia policy. NinaGreen ( talk) 03:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
you ignored Tom's very specific instance of actual Tendentious Editing, his refusal to provide the Milward citation
Not content with ownership of the SAQ article, Tom has now started censoring comments on the Peer Review page. Earlier I posted this comment here and on the Peer Review page to inform editors on the latter as to Tom's ownership of the SAQ article and his refusal to allow anyone else to edit it:
When I went to the Peer Review page just now, I found that Tom had deleted my comment, thus censoring what editors of the Peer Review page are allowed to see concerning the article they are supposed to be peer reviewing. NinaGreen ( talk) 23:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Notice
and message = {{subst:WQA-notice}} ~~~~
(for WQA) or {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~
(for ANI).Johnuniq, if it is not appropriate to complain about other editors on the Talk page of an article, why have you complained about me on this Talk page more than once, and why have you sat quietly by while other editors on this Talk page have unrelentingly attacked and complained about me? This is merely another example of the double standard which obtains on this Talk page and with respect to the SAQ article. It's long past time this stopped, and every editor is treated equally on this Talk page and with respect to the SAQ article. It's small wonder that the number of editors willing to work on this page has dwindled to Tom Reedy and his close associates. NinaGreen ( talk) 00:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
You were dead wrong in making this complaint about me, and you have yet to apologize both for your error and for getting an administrator involved in it. And as for improving the article, as I've said to Nishidani below, the article will be improved when Tom stops owning it and lets someone besides himself edit it, and when you stop supporting him in owning the article and reverting edits. NinaGreen ( talk) 05:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I've added two 'citation needed' tags to the final paragraph in the lede. In my view, the current lede should be replaced by the new version I've suggested, but in the interim, these statements in the current lede appear to be entirely unsupported. 'They' includes the 'prominent public figures' in the preceding sentence, and since whoever Nicholl referred to as 'prominent public figures' aren't identified, there needs to be a citation supporting the contention that the 'prominent public figures' named by Nicholl, whoever they are, are 'campaigning' etc. There also needs to be a citation for the second sentence other than Niederkorn, because Niederkorn says nothing about 'campaigning', or 'gaining public acceptance of the authorship question as a legitimate field of academic inquiry' or 'promoting one or another of the various authorship candidates', all of which is synthesis and original research.
NinaGreen ( talk) 01:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Nishidani's removal of the 'citation needed' tags constitutes Tendentious Editing, and I trust administrators of this page will require that he restore them immediately. The SAQ article neither identifies the 'prominent public figures' not establishes that they are 'campaigning', and the rest of the second sentence is pure synthesis and original research because nothing of the kind is found in the cited source, Niederkorn, as anyone who takes the trouble to look at Niederkorn's article through the link in the footnotes can readily see. NinaGreen ( talk) 05:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Obviously I am not the only one who thinks the SAQ article need serious pruning. Here are Xover's comments from the Peer Review page. Notice that he says the article has 'a weight issue. Not a WP:WEIGHT ISSUE; but an overweight issue!. Xover also says that '…I (very reluctantly) believe section 4 should be removed from this article entirely.'. Xover also has serious criticisms of other aspects of the article. Let's get on with improving it! NinaGreen ( talk) 03:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
There is no need to reproduce the comments when a link will do. this is one reason why this page becomes so hard to navigate. You also don't need to argue Xover's case for him. Tom Reedy ( talk) 03:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh, goodness me; I've not had such an… exuberant reaction to a review in… well, ever. Let's see…
I think that just about covers the comments so far. Do please feel free to ask if there is something still unclear; and I'll look forward to a constructive discussion here to determine if there is consensus for any changes in the article and, if so, precisely what form they should take. In particular, if the changes I've suggested in the review comments are insufficiently specific please do let me know and I'll try to fix it to make clear what I mean. I also have a sandbox where I've made the more sweeping changes mentioned to see what effect they'd have, should anyone be curious as to what they would look like in practice. Finally, I don't think I can praise you enough on the great job you've done on this article, perhaps especially considering the surrounding controversy and related WikiDrama. I've long hoped for a FA-quality article on this subject, but I've not previously dared believe it possible. Kudos! -- Xover ( talk) 11:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, you are the one who don't listen. In the month or so I've been involved with Wikipedia I haven't seen a single suggestion for substantive editing put forward by anyone which you've accepted as a valid point. And it is your behaviour which is offensive behaviour. I've drawn attention to several personal attacks you've made on me, and there are others which are legion which I haven't specifically drawn attention to. In fact any objective observer who were to go through the comments made by you and you allies on this Talk page would see that they constitute one long unrelenting attack. You and your associates are able to get away with this behaviour which violates every tenet of relevant Wikipedia policy because administrators who involve themselves with this page do nothing to stop you. NinaGreen ( talk) 22:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom Reedy has posted on Wikiquette. Here is the response I just posted there:
┌─────────────────────────────────┘ This is not an etiquette issue or an issue of 'editing style'. It concerns Tom Reedy's admitted bias and his complete control of the SAQ article which I raised on the Peer Review page today in the comments below. These comments were twice censored by Tom Reedy, who deleted them from the Peer Review page so that the editors doing the peer review of the SAQ article could not see them.
It is quite true, as Tom admits, that he has made completely inappropriate personal attacks on me, only one of which he has apologized for. But in addition to Tom Reedy's unrelenting personal attacks, the principal issues are Tom's admitted bias (of which details are available on the SAQ talk page), and his complete control of the editing of the SAQ article, of which not a single syllable can be altered without Tom's express permission, completely contrary to Wikipedia's policy that no editor owns a Wikipedia article. It seems beyond dispute that no article should be put forward for peer review by an editor who has admitted bias concerning the topic of the article and who completely controls the editing of every syllable of the article and purports to 'own' the article.NinaGreen (talk) 03:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
The SAQ article will be vastly improved when Tom stops owning the article and allows someone besides himself to edit it, and when you stop supporting Tom's ownership of the article, which is completely contrary to Wikipedia policy. NinaGreen ( talk) 05:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Nishidani, you're hardly a judge of Tom's neutrality as an editor. You've admitted equal bias, having called the subject of this article 'this ideological mania' earlier on this page. The problem with the editing of the SAQ article is that both you and Tom have admitted that you are biased. The SAQ article, which you state you have jointly edited, reflects that bias, and naturally you're both unwilling to have any other editor remove the bias. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum Endorse the remarks of Nina Green above. I have experienced the same intransigence and dismissal on pretextual grounds. Any initiative to bring this article into factual accuracy fails by fiat of the writer and his cohort. Being written by a convinced opponent of any evidence or information premised by competing theories, Reedy's article has a clear conflict of interest. That condition cannot be masked by inserted a different word or two. A poison of condemnation mars the text. Now the author(s?) position seems to be that too much work has gone into the(ir?) effort for them to sanction alternative editing, a position which mirrors the very self-protective doctrines by the Stratfordian Shakespeare majority in question. Recent appeals to Wikipedia etiquette when so confronted by incoming editors represent another variation on resistance. The indecency of lurking until Ms Green goes on vacation so as to reverse her efforts is illustrative of Mr. Reedy's, et. al., concept of etiquette. Surely not admirable ethics. Rejecting the point/counterpoint solution to the neutrality deficit constitutes yet another example. There is also the historical record of someone being suspended from the editing process due to similarly? opposing this ideologically driven approach. In general, it is highly unproductive to condemn, to reject, and to resist the advance of knowledge. No one need fear it. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 15:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC) Zweigenbaum
Hmm. Someone's "Baseless and repetitious complaints". This section started off as Tom Reedy's comments on Wikipedia etiquette. Where is it, Tom? Start out by learning the language of your adversary. Read a few books as a gesture of good will. I recommend The Six Loves of Shake-Speare, Louis P. Benezet, PhD, 1958 pp. 99-126; Malice Aforethought, Paul Hemenway Altrocchi, MD, 2010, pp. 102-120; Great Oxford, Richard Malim, Ed., 2004, pp. 140-50. It would take about an hour. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 08:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I think this is a very nice article. It is set out with a clear logical structure. It presents the main arguments of both sides of the debate. It rightly makes the point that most serious Shakespeare scholars do not support any of the alternative theories. It is well written so that a newbie (me) can come along and learn a lot with little effort.
OK, the page is a bit too long. But I can see no case for deleting whole sections of something that is so carefully written.
There also a bit of bias, with a tendency to over-ridicule the alternative views, by presenting them in their more extreme forms.
As a small step on these two minor points I have deleted the paragraph that started "Shakespeare, Oxford, and Bacon spoke to Percy Allen from the spirit world in 1947..."
I see a lot of bickering on the talk page, but very little actual criticism of the content of the article. If anyone has any specific criticisms of the material, let's hear them. Remember, the purpose of the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. Poujeaux ( talk) 16:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I've always been troubled by this phrasing:-
highly visible and diverse assortment
The notion of 'Diverse' is already contained in 'assortment', which is a grouping of heterogeneous elements. You can't get rid of it by eliding 'diverse', since many of the groups are not 'highly visible'. In fact 'highly visible' practically refers to the major group of de Vereans within the assortment, that includes Marlovians, Baconians, Derbyites, etc etc., most of whom do not engage in stunts for publicity, or stage events to capture the public eye. So I think the 5 words should be reformulated, to conform to the exemplary precision of most of the rest of the text. I know this is a brain-twister Tom, and sorry for the bother. I have a hangover and can't come up with a variant at the moment. Nishidani ( talk) 22:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm glad I'm not the only one given to such hair-splitting. I think assortment connotes selection rather than diversity as such; that is, an assortment suggests a couple to choose from unless it is specified that the assortment in question is rich, vast, comprehensive, or diverse. I think the original phrasing can stand untouched. -- Xover ( talk) 06:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Are administrators on this page monitoring Nishidani and Tom Reedy personal attacks, including use of profanity and revelation of personal information?
Nina, are you still planning to leave mid-January for a few months? If so, maybe we can get some work done in your absence, and it might save Wikipedia having to buy a new server. I wouldn't want my donation this year to have to be spent archiving your baseless and repetitious complaints. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
NinaGreen ( talk) 19:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, I'll leave it up to the administrators involved with this page to decided whether they "monitor" anybody, and to decide whether your and Nishidani's comments are inappropriate and in violation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. That's their job, not yours. NinaGreen ( talk) 20:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The lack of documentary evidence for Shakespeare's education is a staple of anti-Stratfordian arguments, as well as his literacy or lack of it.
The italicized clause seems unnecessary, as it is implicit in what precedes. It would mean 'Shakespeare's literacy is a staple of anti-Stratfordian arguments' whereas his 'ostensible lack of literacy' is the gravamen of this part of their hypothesis. I think the clause could be snipped without loss. Nishidani ( talk) 23:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Point Counterpoint (ignoring Aldous Huxley). I think this was the problem of the earlier version, and made it most troublesome to edit, because the number of itemized talking points in the fringe literature is infinite, though most of it is ignored as simply wrongheaded, and thus cannot be replied to by using reliable sources. Hamiltonstone's review, unless memory errs, asked it to be corrected ?), with sections separated. Both Tom and I don't and never have really thought a rebuttal section is required. But experience tells one there are many readers, particularly those unfamiliar with the literature, the period, and scholarship, who have no awareness of the state of the art of contemporary academic opinion on this. There are many subtextual elements in these sorts of articles that leave room, if one is unguarded, for leading naïve readers astray, and that is one reason why a fair exposition of the fringe view, followed by a brief exposition of the mainstream view, seems required. It is not strictly a point counterpoint, item by item, to and fro as far as I can see. Nishidani ( talk) 08:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I think I've explained my reasoning for this suggestion as well as I can, and as it appears to be ineffectual, I'll drop this as unlikely to ever achieve consensus. There is a significant component of subjective judgement built in to the argument (there is no bright line rule for article length); I am myself only half persuaded on the point; and it can easily be remedied at a later date if it should become an issue at FAC. -- Xover ( talk) 02:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Looking closer at the Historical evidence for Shakespeare's authorship section for a different reason I noticed a couple of issues.
First, the 4th and 5th paragraphs are entirely uncited. Generally there should be a cite at least for each paragraph. In addition, none of the direct quotes in these sections are cited ( WP:V requires citations for all direct quotes). I've placed some {{ cn}} tags to point the way.
Finally, the quotes in the 4th paragraph themselves are a bit hard to read and confusing. I'm assuming the names each quote starts with are the names of the Stationers registering the works in question, but it's really hard to parse what I'm guessing is tabular data when simply serialized into flat text. Could the names perhaps be omitted or placed in parenthesis after the quote? Further reducing readability is the use of links inside the quotations. I see why they're there, but one should generally not link terms inside quotes ( MOS:LINK#General points on linking style, bullet 4), in order to maintain readability. -- Xover ( talk) 17:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I drew attention to the problem with this paragraph in the lede earlier on this page, and my comment that the unidentified 'prominent public figures' should be identified so that readers could determine for themselves whether they can logically be included among the alleged 'They' who are campaigning. Tom then added Shapiro as a further reference for the first sentence below, and as anyone can see, virtually everyone whom Shapiro names on that page is dead, and can hardly be included among the alleged 'They' who are campaigning.
Tom needs to explain exactly who among the 'prominent public figures' named by Nicholl and Shapiro (Tom's sources) actually is still alive and 'campaigning' on the authorship issue.
And as I indicated earlier, this paragraph should be deleted from the lede for two reasons. Firstly, it conflates the living with the dead, and secondly, it's an entire paragraph in the lede about a 'highly visible and diverse assortment of supporters' and 'some prominent public figures' who are never identified or dealt with in extenso later in the article, so what is this paragraph doing in the lede anyway, given the stated function of the lede in WP:LEDE? NinaGreen ( talk) 19:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I just noticed that there is a link to the Nicholl article in the references, and he's merely partially quoting Shapiro:
The last time I checked, they were ALL dead (and let's not forget that that was Tom's sole source before I raised the issue earlier on this page). So why has Tom included them in the SAQ lede as alive and CAMPAIGNING on the authorship issue? The paragraph needs to be deleted. NinaGreen ( talk)
Paul, actually I don't KNOW all these things. But leaving that aside, what's the point of trying to establish what I know or don't know? We're concerning with accurately sourcing things for a Wikipedia article. Where in Wikipedia policy does it state that if Nina Green knows something, it doesn't need to be accurately sourced in the SAQ article? NinaGreen ( talk) 02:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
This is exactly the same behaviour past Oxfordian editors exhibited and the reason why so many extended quotes accompany the references in the lede and other sections. The tactic of then selectively quoting the given reference is also a familiar example of disruptive and tendentious behaviour that I thought was ancient history on this page until the past few weeks. Tom Reedy ( talk) 02:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, this is "exactly" why earlier editors challenged your statements! It's because, as in this instance, the sources you cite DON'T SUPPORT THE STATEMENTS YOU CITE THEM FOR! At most, the sources you cite support a few isolated words in whatever it is you've written. All the rest is your interpretation, synthesis and original research. When you start citing sources which actually fully support what you've written in the article, the challenges will stop. It's you that's the problem, not those challenging you. NinaGreen ( talk) 02:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Johnuniq, I have explained the problems with the final paragraph of the lede clearly and succinctly many times over, and if anyone were actually listening, the paragraph would have been deleted long ago. NinaGreen ( talk) 03:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Another point which could and should be made is that the Nicholl citation is merely a book review of Contested Will, and logically Shapiro should be cited, not Nicholl, for anything found in Contested Will. If Nicholl goes beyond what can be found in Shapiro, then one has to look very carefully at those additional comments to determine whether they should be cited in the SAQ article, considering that Nicholl is a journalist, not someone with a Ph.D. in Elizabethan literature or someone who teaches Shakespeare courses at a university. NinaGreen ( talk) 18:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Those primarily responsible for the SAQ article, Tom Reedy and Nishidani, seem unable to appreciate how completely disorganized the article is. It goes back and forth between the current state of the authorship controversy and the historical aspect. Moreover the article strives to prove that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the Shakespeare canon. This distorts the focus of the entire article, which should be on the development and current status of the authorship controversy. The article should take as a given that it's the consensus of the Shakespeare establishment and the general public that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the canon, and focus on the issue potential readers of the article obviously want to know about, namely how did the controversy develop, what evidence is there for it, and what is its current status. I've made a number of edits in which I've attempted to address aspects of the lack of organization in the article, but they've all been instantly reverted by Tom Reedy and Nishidani before editors have had a chance to consider them in context to see how they address the organizational problems. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, take a deep breath yourself :-), and notice that in every instance I have put my edits up for discussion on the Talk page. Take another deep breath :-), and consider that giving specific reasons why a Wikipedia article lacks organization is NOT a personal attack, nor does it have anything to do with 'assuming good faith' or 'humility'. Take and third deep breath :-), and consider that asking that potential edits be left in place long enough for editors and administrators of this page to consider their impact in context is about as far removed from 'disruptive behaviour' as anything could possibly be. The SAQ article is either unfocussed in terms of its primary objective (informing potential readers about the authorship controversy) or it isn't. The SAQ article is either disorganized, or it isn't. Those issues need to be considered objectively. I've looked at the SAQ article objectively, having had the advantage of not having been involved with it, and I can see that it needs serious and substantial improvement along both those lines, and that in the process the article could be considerably shortened by removing a lot of the redundancy in which it abounds. NinaGreen ( talk) 20:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, as is evident elsewhere on this page, I've made SPECIFIC suggestions concerning the lack of organization, particularly with respect to the lede. Let's focus on the lede. My version of the lede eliminates a number of problems which I've identified in the current lede. Perhaps my version can still be improved upon. The best way to do that is to place my version in the article for a few days so that editors can (1) see how it increases the visual impact of the article and entices potential readers, rather than losing them in a welter of words as the current lede does, and (2) whether there is anything in the current lede which would not be better eliminated entirely OR placed elsewhere in the article. What's difficult about that? Nothing. NinaGreen ( talk) 21:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, no, it is not putting the cart before the horse. The only way this lengthy and disorganized article will ever regain focus is to begin with a focussed lede, and prune and reorganize the article in conformity with it. Also, let's not confuse asking other editors for help with stating that other editors are in violation of Wikipedia policy when they ARE in violation of Wikipedia policy. The final paragraph of the lede IS in violation of Wikipedia policy. The cited sources don't support the statements made in it, and the latter consist of interpretation, synthesis and original research. NinaGreen ( talk) 03:10, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Bishonen, if there's something important that's been LEFT OUT of my version of the lede, just tell me what it is. Don't just tell me the lede's too short, and that Wikipedia policy requires a long lede for a long article. What's missing? That's what I want to know. NinaGreen ( talk) 03:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
This one? I'll try, since you request it. Your version covers a) the history of the authorship question, b) the state of the authorship question today. I.e. it's all about the section "History of the authorship question", with its subsections. That's it. Obviously everything can't be explicated in the lede, but I think the following matters/sections, which your version doesn't allude to, need to be mentioned:
(These things are all mentioned in the lede currently in place.)
Can someone please tell me why the entire History of the Authorship Question section in the SAQ article cannot be deleted from the SAQ article and incorporated in the separate Wikipedia article History of the Shakespeare Authorship Question? NinaGreen ( talk) 03:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
My question remains unanswered. Xover has suggested on the Peer Review page (copied elsewhere on this page) that the very lengthy History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article should be deleted in its entirety. There is another separate Wikipedia article entitled History of the Shakespeare Authorship Question. Why the duplication? NinaGreen ( talk) 17:46, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, rather than just admit you made an error which mislead me and doubtless mislead others, you then go on to find fault with me for having been mislead(!), and avoid the real issue, which is that there is a obvious and entirely unnecessary duplication. There is absolutely no need for two extremely lengthy and detailed expositions of the history of the Shakespeare authorship controversy in Wikipedia, one a separate article, and the other a very lengthy section in the SAQ article. The latter needs to be merged into the former. Let's get on with doing something productive, i.e. merging the latter into the former. NinaGreen ( talk) 02:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Nishidani, you raise some good points. The bottom line is that there should not be two lengthy sections in Wikipedia on the same topic, one an independent article and one a very lengthy section in the SAQ article. As you suggest, one solution would be to delete the independent article and move the lengthy section in the SAQ article over to replace it. Could we not all have a close look at the two 'historical' accounts to see whether that's feasible, and then try to reach consensus on that point? NinaGreen ( talk) 04:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, re 'the praise it has garnered from independent reviewers'. How many independent reviewers have praised the article, and where are their comments to be found? I realize you've put a lot of work in on the article, but I don't think it's appropriate to foreclose further editing on the basis that it has been praised by a handful of unnamed independent reviewers. NinaGreen ( talk) 06:36, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
This is probably not going to prove to be a popular comment around here, but I just read through the History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article and had the distinct impression I was rereading Shapiro's Contested Will, which I read a month or so ago. Is there any point in rehashing Shapiro's book in this section of the SAQ article? Would it not be preferable to refer to the fact that all this material on the history of the authorship controversy can be found in Contested Will? NinaGreen ( talk) 05:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, the problem is that I felt I was reading Shapiro when I read this section of the SAQ article. There are a lot of different citations in that section of the article, not just citations from Shapiro, but nonetheless reading that section gave me the feeling that I was reading Shapiro. There just might be too much similarity between the two. NinaGreen ( talk) 06:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
The SAQ article contains 7 links to other 'main' articles. The SAQ article repeats much of the information contained in these 7 'main' articles. The History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article is about the same length as the alleged 'main' article on the History of the Shakespeare Authorship. All this duplication makes no sense. Decisions need to be made about what belongs where. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I have posted a notice on Nina's talk page asking her to cease her disruptive behaviour and to conform her participation to Wikipedia policies and procedures. WP:RFC/USER procedure requires that at least two editors contact an RfC/U candidate on their talk page about their behaviour before filing a case. If any other editor feels the same as I do about this, I'd appreciate your input there. Tom Reedy ( talk) 05:26, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
All my comments on this Talk page concern improvements to the SAQ article, and when I made any edits (all of which were instantly reverted) I placed them for discussion on the Talk page. The untrue allegation of 'disruptive behaviour' constitutes a personal ad hominem attack, contrary to Wikipedia policy. NinaGreen ( talk) 17:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Johnuniq, let's be very clear. To falsely accuse anyone of 'disruptive behaviour' is defamation, and you have now repeated the defamation twice. NinaGreen ( talk) 19:23, 8 January 2011 (UTC)