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We should merge the Articles Severus Snape and Half Blood Prince (character) articles.
There is some overlapping between "role in series" and 'Half-blood Prince" sections Luckyz21 23:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there any reason we changed the infobox picture? Frankly I'm not too keen on a pic dominated by a grossly enlarged hand. Sandpiper 23:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
For the record, I like the new picture, and hope it stays. The former picture, though pretty enough, was of something that didn't happen in the book. (Unless the picture changed more than once: I'm thinking of the Snape-Saves-Trio-From-Lupin shot.) Preseli 15:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The Loyalty section says that, when Harry performed the Sectusempra curse on Malfoy that Snape did not expel him, however in the Chamber of Secrets doesn't it say that only the headmaster or the head of house can expel people? Pyreforge 02:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I thought he used Rictusempra.-- 76.202.220.201 10:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Should leaks that Snape dies killing Voldemort be included in the article? - MSTCrow 18:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I have barely seen it anywhere but YTMND, a joke website. The scan does not read like something written by JKR. And Snape killing Voldemort would be the worst ending ever. The "spoiler" is, undoubtedly, fake. Megaritz 03:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Snape's Patronus is a doe, like Lily Potter's. Whenever this page can be edited, someone can add it in.
ABOUT SNAPE'S PATRONUS
I would just like to add that there's no evidence that Snape's Patronus changed into a doe. Severus Snape, according to the memories we see in Chapter 33, was always in love with Lily, even as a boy of 10 or 11 years of age. Patronus Charm is very advance magic, he must have learned it when he was in school (even though Sirius claimed that Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year).
So I think, whenever Snape learned to perform the Patronus charm, his Patronus would've always taken the form of a doe as he'd always loved Lily.
So if anyone agrees please add the change given below to Severus Snape's main page:
Snape objected to the fact that, according to Dumbledore's plan, Harry, as the last Horcrux, would have to die at Voldemort's hands. When asked by Dumbledore if he cared for Harry, Snape replied, "For him?" and conjured his Patronus, showing Dumbledore that all his years of service had been for his undying love for Lily Potter, his Patronus takes the same form as Lily Potter's did: a doe.
Someone posted a link under "Half-Blood Prince," that leads to -- you guessed it, a blog -- that apparently tells who dies in Deathly Hallows. Some guy got a hold of the book very recently and put all the information on characters who die in Deathly Hallows in his blog. What do you know -- it's a reprise of "OMG Snape kills Dumbledore!" I edited the link out to prevent massive spoilage, whether the guy was telling the truth or not. Teamrocketspy621 00:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
It is made very clear in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows that Snape was always loyal to Dumbledore, and in fact killed Dumbledore under Dumbledore's orders, as Dumbledore knew he was going to die anyway and it was a good way to show that Snape was loyal to Voldemort. Ever since he switched sides in order to protect Lily, he has always been on Dumbledore's side, and was angry that Harry would ultimately have to die. Titanium Dragon 23:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Whoever re-wrote this has done it exceptionally! I dont think that this will need to be futher edited Loopywelshemz 20:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved discussion on "Dumbledore's greed?" into separate section below. Mercury543210 20:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC) |
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"large edit" seems to me an understatement... The article needs to be completely redone, IMHO. dott.Piergiorgio 23:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Small Edit Needed - under "snape and the marauders" there's a "latter" which should be a "former".
Snape was headmaster in the 7th book. 67.189.55.63 21:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
For refrences you can add this part Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter Twelve : Magic is Might, Page 224, US Children's Edition
tejas 12:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing four tildes (~) after your comments. Please keep discussion here strictly to article-related matters. Off-topic and incivil remarks will be removed. Exploding Boy 15:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the sentence in the "Deathly Hallows" section where it is inferred that Severus is protecting Harry because he loves him.
Snape replied, "For him?" and conjures his Patronus as proof that all of his actions were fuelled by his love for Harry. <- quote from the article prior to my changing it.
That is inherently wrong to which the Patronus summoning, that which is the same as Lily's, testifies. Also the italics show that he's stunned that Albus could get it wrong. He wasn't protected Harry because he cared for him, but rather because of his love for Lily.
I'll change this to make it more accurate as the chapter "The Prince's Tale" in the Deathly Hallows explains Severus' actions. If someone can explain to me why it should be otherwise, please comment here. Drivenapart 09:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
In the scene Albus is asking Severus if he cared about Harry in that memory. They are talking about a him not a her. Yes he did care about Harry because he loved Lily and that is what the scene is trying to say. There were other other memories that mentioned he
loved Lily. This specific memory is showing that he cared for Harry. He cared for Harry and he loved Lily. There is a big difference than caring and the loving.
Cambria.Alexis
09:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Re: above reference to Snape whispering, "Look...at...me..." While reading DH I interpreted it quite different w/ the emphasis on the word me rather than on the word look. I believe that Snape was requesting Harry to look @ his inner self/true character via the memories he had just given him. "Look...at...me...I'm really a person worthy of respect/love." BTW Snape's last wish was fulfilled IMO as Harry later names his 2nd son after him & describes him as "probably the bravest man I ever knew." (denisebk)
Severus wouldn't have replied "for him" and "always" to the question if he didn't care for Harry. He summoned the patronus because he was saying that because of his love for Lily he cared about Harry. Severus put that memory in to show Harry that not only did he not hate him but that he cared for him. This memory was to put emphasis on the fact that he cared for Harry not why he cared for Harry. Cambria.Alexis 11:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
In short, the "For him?" shows Snape's disdain at Albus for thinking that he cared about Harry, when what he cared about really was Lily. I would like further people's views on this please Drivenapart 11:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
If Severus didn't care about Harry his answer would be "no" and not "always". There is no disdain for Dumbledore and if you paid attention you would notice that is says Snape is crying. I have the book on my lap right now. I know what I am saying.
I just don't think you get what JK Rowling is trying to say in that part of the story. You don't see the big picture here. She was trying to say through all of his memories that he loved Lily he cared about Harry. The reason why he cared about Harry and why protected him are not important.
Just like when Dumbledore said to Harry that 'It is our choices…that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.' and 'She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you'.
You simply can't see the big picture. Seriously you need to reread the memory scene.
Cambria.Alexis
11:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
To me, Snape cared about Harry, but disliked him as well. He cared for Harry because of the fact that he loved Lily and because Harry had Lily's eyes, but he also loathed him for the fact that he was so much like his father, both in personality and appearances (and James Potter was quite the bully in his younger years, no matter how noble he might have become once he grew up).
He didn't love Harry, but he cared about him (in his own way).
However, the point of the Patronus scene is to show us that Snape had always 'loved' Lily Potter deeply.
'For him?' shouted Snape. ' 'Expecto Patronum'!' A silver doe appears. ' '[You still love Lily]' after all this time?' 'Always', said Snape.
There is absolutely no reason why "After all this time"/"Always" would refer to Harry. "After all this time you love Harry?"/"I have always loved Harry"... o... k...
Of course the scene is there to show us that even after all that time (ever since he called her a "Mudblood" and she called off their friendship), he still loved her since his Patronus had changed into a doe (or maybe it had always been one, but I believe it's more that it changed into a doe because that would've been sweeter).
So you can argue whether or not Snape loved Harry or cared for him (I believe he did), but not based on that particular scene!
I will edit out every single attempt to somehow link that scene to Snape loving Harry. Read the book. There you will find the answer. [ FallenAngelII 23:02, 25 July 2007 (GMT+1) ]
This entire conversation belongs in a fan forum, not an article discussion page. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember whether Sirius mistook Harry for James in OthP, as it happened in the film. Did it happen? It would seem a notable slip. Comments? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I have (again) removed spoliers from the character info box. ... Deathly Hallows was only released very recently, and it is not until then that it is revealed that Snape was on the side of the angels all along. It will become appropriate to have this information in the info box, but it is not yet. GideonF 12:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
There is an active proposal to delete the article Half-Blood Prince (character). That article largely duplicates information from both this article and from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. Marc Shepherd 22:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Why no?
You misunderstand. I had deliberately included those literary traditions of Judas (viz. Kazantzakis' and those of the Gnostic provenance from which it is derived) to signify that knowing sort of betrayal which is not and never will be. I can hardly see why a very old and established literary antecedence strains relevance.
All that talk on the origin of the name is nice..but has anyone realized that Severus Snape is an anagram for Persues [sic] Evans? I think that should be mentioned, and thus I shall. -- User:Cao_Wei 05:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah I added that. I think it's technically called a blanagram seeing as it is only a partial anagram. Don't delete it off without discussing first! I admit I might have put it in the wrong section (Deathly Hallows) -- User:lsennosuke
Well, someone keeps deleting it. I think it's worth mentioning, but.. -- Cao Wei 21:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
And it should be removed. Until we have a reliable, verifiable source that notes the anagram, we cannot include it, as it is OUR connection that we are making, and that connection cannot be used in an WP article. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I know it was on Mugglenet. Are they a reliable source? -- Cao Wei 04:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
He got it in one try. If folk are curious as to what constitutes a reliable source, check Reliable Sources, Attribution, Verifiability and lastly, Notability. These are the policies and guidelines that will make it easier to understand what is an is not acceptable to WP. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I started out appropriating it from another user who had a tremendous sense of humor, and have been adding to it ever since. Thanks for the compliment. May His noodly appendage touch you, too. :D - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of opinion and interpretation stuck into the Hallows write up. It won’t let me alter, but I think it should be trimmed down to what was actually said, rather then the interpretations of it. As it reads write now, it makes it sound as though Snape defected mere hours before Lily's death saying “upon hearing that Voldemort was heading to Godric's Hollow”, when in the book the timing was unspecified. Rather, Snape defected after learning Voldemort thought the prophecy meant Lily. We don’t know when this was in relation to their deaths or if the Potter were as yet in Godric’s Hollow at the time. Personally, I think it was quite a while before their deaths, being as how I think it was very much implied that it was Snape’s info that had sent the Potters into hiding, but again that is my interpretation.
As it has come up more than once, we should probably discuss the merits and demerits of using succession boxes in the article. Faithlessthewonderboy has pointed out that they aren't supposed to be used for this purpose. Comments? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay. Let's wait a little bit to see if similarly cogent arguments appear in opposition. If not, we can remove them at the end of the day. I agree that the coloring is ugly. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
We do use succession boxes on, for instance, pages for Kings of Gondor. But in that case we have a long, consistent chain which was written up by the author himself. john k 21:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This is somewhat related to this topic--if you end up keeping the succession boxes, I was wondering- didn't Professor McGonagall become Hogwarts Headmistress for a very short duration after Dumbledore's death, and therefore wouldn't Snape be preceded and succeeded by McGonagall? Sorry, it's a ridiculous question, I know, and probably in the wrong place.
Very well...from across the genre of make-believe, the Kings and Sons of Gondor order you to make the succession boxes....BEGONE! - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC) (being all dramaticky)
In this section, it talks briefly about that the loyalty was questioned and then launches into the answer in Deathly Hallows. Couldn't there be more information on where he was loyal to both sides throughout the series, thus getting the discussion on? Then people's speculation on the answer and then finally the answer in Deathly Hallows? Or at least move some of the info from the sections above. Simply south 13:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Snape gets angry at Dumbledore for saying that Harry will be like a pig for the slaughter and that he used him. Therefore does Dumbledore also tell Snape that Harry will not die due to the blood links but Harry must think that he will die, and that part of the conversation was not included in the memory? Otherwise there would be no reason for Snape to continue helping him as he would know he would soon die anyway.
I assumed the author of the comment above was alluding to some mention of this point in the article. Nightscream 00:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
With the name Severus being similar to the name Severinus I wonder whether some of the inspiration for Snape was taken from The Name of the Rose, especially given that Severinus was the herbalist in the Eco novel, a position much akin to be Potions Master. Velkyal 13:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Not so much a citation as an observation. Velkyal 09:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we should start a new article - "Harry Potter and possible allusions to literature"? Velkyal 07:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I note that Snape is described as an antagonist, although technically speaking he is actually a protagonist, even though this fact is deliberately kept ambiguous until the seventh book... Jamyskis Whisper, Contribs 15:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that tracing some signs of sympathy and respect between the two in the last few books is important to character development. Harry sympathizes with Snape in the scene he sees between Snape and James's gang in OotP. Harry feels that the Half-Blood Prince understands him and is a brilliant friend in the book of the same name, referring to the Prince even when he has non-work related problems in the hopes of gleaning some insight. He respects the Prince's spellcasting abilities and potion making genius. And of course, in the last book Harry names one of his sons for Snape and says that he was the most courageous man that he ever knew. Harry looks like James and has his recklessness, and looks like Lily and has her loving, pure nature, but in upbringing and suffering he most mirrors Snape and can see this at the end. 64.50.201.98 16:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Arcayne, it IS fan musing when one fails to state that the Marauders were school bullies who started so many fights, and caused so many problems that they spent practically all of their time in detention (according to canon). As written, your edits seem to show information suppression and gloss over this and other facts and give the appearance that the Marauders were all noble heroes. According to Rowling, they were not. If one persons "musings" are to be removed, then all such from anyone else should be removed as well. In future, I will edit down to mere facts and edit out all "musings" by anyone. Brensgrrl 05:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Every article I've seen about Snape seems to be unbalanced in favor of the Marauders, especially James, making him seem like some kind of hero or noble person even though canon says otherwise. I don't think that canon facts should be eliminated or glossed over for the sake of brevity alone. The Marauders were simply school bullies, another gang at Hogwarts. Only by understanding this can one understand the character of Snape and his actions. This article needs to reflect an entirely neutral POV and state the canon facts and nothing more. As written, it does not. Brensgrrl 05:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Bjell, try preparing a single edit that incorporates all the info using hte format you describe. Then, self-revert that edit. It gives us all a chance to see the difference. Remember, only prepare a single edit, as someone might edit in between, which would cock edits up. You might want to use your sandbox to prepare it. Let me know when you are ready, and we'll go from there. Okay? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
4.91.105.165 22:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)Should we put tildes on both sides of our comments? Anyway, a little research in the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary reveals that the word "snape" is a variant of "sneap," meaning to chastise or punish. I desired to point this out by editing, but apparently I aam incapable of doing so. I would request someone with an account (that is, someone less uneasy about their personal security than myself) to effect this change. 4.91.105.165 22:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Arcayne, on the matter of Snape and Lily's, falling out, I reviewed Chapter 23, and indeed, Lily referenced both the epithet that Snape hurled toward her, and Snape's consorting with wannabe Death Eaters as her reasons for the breakdown of their friendship. I apologize for insisting without first reviewing the passage. I've incorporated both reasons into the article.
As for the section title, there are two types of section titles used for articles on fictional characters. The first is "Character biography" or "Fictional character biography". This title, or some variation of it, is the standard used in the articles on the Weasley twins, Dumbldore, Sirius Black, etc., as well as articles on other long-running fictional characters like Batman, Spider-Man, Superman (Kal-L), Captain Kirk, Benjamin Sisko, Brooke English, Roland Deschain, etc. The other title, which I've only seen in the Harry Potter articles, is "In the Books", which is used in the Ron Weasley, Hermione Granger, Hagrid, and Draco Malfoy articles. Either would be an appropriate section title in this article. Remus Lupin's article actually uses both. The only one I've ever seen that uses "Appearances", is the Voldemort article, but that article does not present his life in an in-universe, chronological order, and lumps his movie appearances in the same main section with his depictions in the book. Since Snape's article indeed presents his biography as such, I think it's more appropriate, and would bring it in line with the vast majority of other Harry Potter articles in particular, and fictional character articles in general. Thanks. Nightscream 06:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
This line of the article
"Dumbledore decides that Snape will kill him, both an act of euthanasia, as a testament of his apparent loyalty to Voldemort, and as a way to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow."
implies that Snape did not know that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him. However, the timing of Dumbledore's request and the Unbreakable Vow are not clear in the books. Both events happen in the summer well before school starts (since Dumbledore already has the wound when he picks up Harry, and since Snape is at Spinner's End when he gets the visit from Narcissa). In my reading of the Spinner's End chapter in the book, Snape knew Dumbledore's wish and made a mental calculation that that was probably what Draco was assigned to do.
In anycase, the timing of events is not clear, so that line "as a way to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow" should be changed.
168.103.162.222 17:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I've responded to the part about the Pensieve on Arcayne's Talk Page. Nightscream 16:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
We should merge the Articles Severus Snape and Half Blood Prince (character) articles.
There is some overlapping between "role in series" and 'Half-blood Prince" sections Luckyz21 23:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there any reason we changed the infobox picture? Frankly I'm not too keen on a pic dominated by a grossly enlarged hand. Sandpiper 23:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
For the record, I like the new picture, and hope it stays. The former picture, though pretty enough, was of something that didn't happen in the book. (Unless the picture changed more than once: I'm thinking of the Snape-Saves-Trio-From-Lupin shot.) Preseli 15:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The Loyalty section says that, when Harry performed the Sectusempra curse on Malfoy that Snape did not expel him, however in the Chamber of Secrets doesn't it say that only the headmaster or the head of house can expel people? Pyreforge 02:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I thought he used Rictusempra.-- 76.202.220.201 10:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Should leaks that Snape dies killing Voldemort be included in the article? - MSTCrow 18:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I have barely seen it anywhere but YTMND, a joke website. The scan does not read like something written by JKR. And Snape killing Voldemort would be the worst ending ever. The "spoiler" is, undoubtedly, fake. Megaritz 03:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Snape's Patronus is a doe, like Lily Potter's. Whenever this page can be edited, someone can add it in.
ABOUT SNAPE'S PATRONUS
I would just like to add that there's no evidence that Snape's Patronus changed into a doe. Severus Snape, according to the memories we see in Chapter 33, was always in love with Lily, even as a boy of 10 or 11 years of age. Patronus Charm is very advance magic, he must have learned it when he was in school (even though Sirius claimed that Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in the seventh year).
So I think, whenever Snape learned to perform the Patronus charm, his Patronus would've always taken the form of a doe as he'd always loved Lily.
So if anyone agrees please add the change given below to Severus Snape's main page:
Snape objected to the fact that, according to Dumbledore's plan, Harry, as the last Horcrux, would have to die at Voldemort's hands. When asked by Dumbledore if he cared for Harry, Snape replied, "For him?" and conjured his Patronus, showing Dumbledore that all his years of service had been for his undying love for Lily Potter, his Patronus takes the same form as Lily Potter's did: a doe.
Someone posted a link under "Half-Blood Prince," that leads to -- you guessed it, a blog -- that apparently tells who dies in Deathly Hallows. Some guy got a hold of the book very recently and put all the information on characters who die in Deathly Hallows in his blog. What do you know -- it's a reprise of "OMG Snape kills Dumbledore!" I edited the link out to prevent massive spoilage, whether the guy was telling the truth or not. Teamrocketspy621 00:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
It is made very clear in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows that Snape was always loyal to Dumbledore, and in fact killed Dumbledore under Dumbledore's orders, as Dumbledore knew he was going to die anyway and it was a good way to show that Snape was loyal to Voldemort. Ever since he switched sides in order to protect Lily, he has always been on Dumbledore's side, and was angry that Harry would ultimately have to die. Titanium Dragon 23:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Whoever re-wrote this has done it exceptionally! I dont think that this will need to be futher edited Loopywelshemz 20:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved discussion on "Dumbledore's greed?" into separate section below. Mercury543210 20:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC) |
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"large edit" seems to me an understatement... The article needs to be completely redone, IMHO. dott.Piergiorgio 23:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Small Edit Needed - under "snape and the marauders" there's a "latter" which should be a "former".
Snape was headmaster in the 7th book. 67.189.55.63 21:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
For refrences you can add this part Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter Twelve : Magic is Might, Page 224, US Children's Edition
tejas 12:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing four tildes (~) after your comments. Please keep discussion here strictly to article-related matters. Off-topic and incivil remarks will be removed. Exploding Boy 15:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the sentence in the "Deathly Hallows" section where it is inferred that Severus is protecting Harry because he loves him.
Snape replied, "For him?" and conjures his Patronus as proof that all of his actions were fuelled by his love for Harry. <- quote from the article prior to my changing it.
That is inherently wrong to which the Patronus summoning, that which is the same as Lily's, testifies. Also the italics show that he's stunned that Albus could get it wrong. He wasn't protected Harry because he cared for him, but rather because of his love for Lily.
I'll change this to make it more accurate as the chapter "The Prince's Tale" in the Deathly Hallows explains Severus' actions. If someone can explain to me why it should be otherwise, please comment here. Drivenapart 09:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
In the scene Albus is asking Severus if he cared about Harry in that memory. They are talking about a him not a her. Yes he did care about Harry because he loved Lily and that is what the scene is trying to say. There were other other memories that mentioned he
loved Lily. This specific memory is showing that he cared for Harry. He cared for Harry and he loved Lily. There is a big difference than caring and the loving.
Cambria.Alexis
09:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Re: above reference to Snape whispering, "Look...at...me..." While reading DH I interpreted it quite different w/ the emphasis on the word me rather than on the word look. I believe that Snape was requesting Harry to look @ his inner self/true character via the memories he had just given him. "Look...at...me...I'm really a person worthy of respect/love." BTW Snape's last wish was fulfilled IMO as Harry later names his 2nd son after him & describes him as "probably the bravest man I ever knew." (denisebk)
Severus wouldn't have replied "for him" and "always" to the question if he didn't care for Harry. He summoned the patronus because he was saying that because of his love for Lily he cared about Harry. Severus put that memory in to show Harry that not only did he not hate him but that he cared for him. This memory was to put emphasis on the fact that he cared for Harry not why he cared for Harry. Cambria.Alexis 11:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
In short, the "For him?" shows Snape's disdain at Albus for thinking that he cared about Harry, when what he cared about really was Lily. I would like further people's views on this please Drivenapart 11:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
If Severus didn't care about Harry his answer would be "no" and not "always". There is no disdain for Dumbledore and if you paid attention you would notice that is says Snape is crying. I have the book on my lap right now. I know what I am saying.
I just don't think you get what JK Rowling is trying to say in that part of the story. You don't see the big picture here. She was trying to say through all of his memories that he loved Lily he cared about Harry. The reason why he cared about Harry and why protected him are not important.
Just like when Dumbledore said to Harry that 'It is our choices…that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.' and 'She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you'.
You simply can't see the big picture. Seriously you need to reread the memory scene.
Cambria.Alexis
11:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
To me, Snape cared about Harry, but disliked him as well. He cared for Harry because of the fact that he loved Lily and because Harry had Lily's eyes, but he also loathed him for the fact that he was so much like his father, both in personality and appearances (and James Potter was quite the bully in his younger years, no matter how noble he might have become once he grew up).
He didn't love Harry, but he cared about him (in his own way).
However, the point of the Patronus scene is to show us that Snape had always 'loved' Lily Potter deeply.
'For him?' shouted Snape. ' 'Expecto Patronum'!' A silver doe appears. ' '[You still love Lily]' after all this time?' 'Always', said Snape.
There is absolutely no reason why "After all this time"/"Always" would refer to Harry. "After all this time you love Harry?"/"I have always loved Harry"... o... k...
Of course the scene is there to show us that even after all that time (ever since he called her a "Mudblood" and she called off their friendship), he still loved her since his Patronus had changed into a doe (or maybe it had always been one, but I believe it's more that it changed into a doe because that would've been sweeter).
So you can argue whether or not Snape loved Harry or cared for him (I believe he did), but not based on that particular scene!
I will edit out every single attempt to somehow link that scene to Snape loving Harry. Read the book. There you will find the answer. [ FallenAngelII 23:02, 25 July 2007 (GMT+1) ]
This entire conversation belongs in a fan forum, not an article discussion page. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:13, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember whether Sirius mistook Harry for James in OthP, as it happened in the film. Did it happen? It would seem a notable slip. Comments? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I have (again) removed spoliers from the character info box. ... Deathly Hallows was only released very recently, and it is not until then that it is revealed that Snape was on the side of the angels all along. It will become appropriate to have this information in the info box, but it is not yet. GideonF 12:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
There is an active proposal to delete the article Half-Blood Prince (character). That article largely duplicates information from both this article and from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. Marc Shepherd 22:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Why no?
You misunderstand. I had deliberately included those literary traditions of Judas (viz. Kazantzakis' and those of the Gnostic provenance from which it is derived) to signify that knowing sort of betrayal which is not and never will be. I can hardly see why a very old and established literary antecedence strains relevance.
All that talk on the origin of the name is nice..but has anyone realized that Severus Snape is an anagram for Persues [sic] Evans? I think that should be mentioned, and thus I shall. -- User:Cao_Wei 05:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah I added that. I think it's technically called a blanagram seeing as it is only a partial anagram. Don't delete it off without discussing first! I admit I might have put it in the wrong section (Deathly Hallows) -- User:lsennosuke
Well, someone keeps deleting it. I think it's worth mentioning, but.. -- Cao Wei 21:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
And it should be removed. Until we have a reliable, verifiable source that notes the anagram, we cannot include it, as it is OUR connection that we are making, and that connection cannot be used in an WP article. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I know it was on Mugglenet. Are they a reliable source? -- Cao Wei 04:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
He got it in one try. If folk are curious as to what constitutes a reliable source, check Reliable Sources, Attribution, Verifiability and lastly, Notability. These are the policies and guidelines that will make it easier to understand what is an is not acceptable to WP. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I started out appropriating it from another user who had a tremendous sense of humor, and have been adding to it ever since. Thanks for the compliment. May His noodly appendage touch you, too. :D - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of opinion and interpretation stuck into the Hallows write up. It won’t let me alter, but I think it should be trimmed down to what was actually said, rather then the interpretations of it. As it reads write now, it makes it sound as though Snape defected mere hours before Lily's death saying “upon hearing that Voldemort was heading to Godric's Hollow”, when in the book the timing was unspecified. Rather, Snape defected after learning Voldemort thought the prophecy meant Lily. We don’t know when this was in relation to their deaths or if the Potter were as yet in Godric’s Hollow at the time. Personally, I think it was quite a while before their deaths, being as how I think it was very much implied that it was Snape’s info that had sent the Potters into hiding, but again that is my interpretation.
As it has come up more than once, we should probably discuss the merits and demerits of using succession boxes in the article. Faithlessthewonderboy has pointed out that they aren't supposed to be used for this purpose. Comments? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay. Let's wait a little bit to see if similarly cogent arguments appear in opposition. If not, we can remove them at the end of the day. I agree that the coloring is ugly. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
We do use succession boxes on, for instance, pages for Kings of Gondor. But in that case we have a long, consistent chain which was written up by the author himself. john k 21:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This is somewhat related to this topic--if you end up keeping the succession boxes, I was wondering- didn't Professor McGonagall become Hogwarts Headmistress for a very short duration after Dumbledore's death, and therefore wouldn't Snape be preceded and succeeded by McGonagall? Sorry, it's a ridiculous question, I know, and probably in the wrong place.
Very well...from across the genre of make-believe, the Kings and Sons of Gondor order you to make the succession boxes....BEGONE! - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC) (being all dramaticky)
In this section, it talks briefly about that the loyalty was questioned and then launches into the answer in Deathly Hallows. Couldn't there be more information on where he was loyal to both sides throughout the series, thus getting the discussion on? Then people's speculation on the answer and then finally the answer in Deathly Hallows? Or at least move some of the info from the sections above. Simply south 13:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Snape gets angry at Dumbledore for saying that Harry will be like a pig for the slaughter and that he used him. Therefore does Dumbledore also tell Snape that Harry will not die due to the blood links but Harry must think that he will die, and that part of the conversation was not included in the memory? Otherwise there would be no reason for Snape to continue helping him as he would know he would soon die anyway.
I assumed the author of the comment above was alluding to some mention of this point in the article. Nightscream 00:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
With the name Severus being similar to the name Severinus I wonder whether some of the inspiration for Snape was taken from The Name of the Rose, especially given that Severinus was the herbalist in the Eco novel, a position much akin to be Potions Master. Velkyal 13:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Not so much a citation as an observation. Velkyal 09:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we should start a new article - "Harry Potter and possible allusions to literature"? Velkyal 07:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I note that Snape is described as an antagonist, although technically speaking he is actually a protagonist, even though this fact is deliberately kept ambiguous until the seventh book... Jamyskis Whisper, Contribs 15:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I think that tracing some signs of sympathy and respect between the two in the last few books is important to character development. Harry sympathizes with Snape in the scene he sees between Snape and James's gang in OotP. Harry feels that the Half-Blood Prince understands him and is a brilliant friend in the book of the same name, referring to the Prince even when he has non-work related problems in the hopes of gleaning some insight. He respects the Prince's spellcasting abilities and potion making genius. And of course, in the last book Harry names one of his sons for Snape and says that he was the most courageous man that he ever knew. Harry looks like James and has his recklessness, and looks like Lily and has her loving, pure nature, but in upbringing and suffering he most mirrors Snape and can see this at the end. 64.50.201.98 16:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Arcayne, it IS fan musing when one fails to state that the Marauders were school bullies who started so many fights, and caused so many problems that they spent practically all of their time in detention (according to canon). As written, your edits seem to show information suppression and gloss over this and other facts and give the appearance that the Marauders were all noble heroes. According to Rowling, they were not. If one persons "musings" are to be removed, then all such from anyone else should be removed as well. In future, I will edit down to mere facts and edit out all "musings" by anyone. Brensgrrl 05:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Every article I've seen about Snape seems to be unbalanced in favor of the Marauders, especially James, making him seem like some kind of hero or noble person even though canon says otherwise. I don't think that canon facts should be eliminated or glossed over for the sake of brevity alone. The Marauders were simply school bullies, another gang at Hogwarts. Only by understanding this can one understand the character of Snape and his actions. This article needs to reflect an entirely neutral POV and state the canon facts and nothing more. As written, it does not. Brensgrrl 05:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Bjell, try preparing a single edit that incorporates all the info using hte format you describe. Then, self-revert that edit. It gives us all a chance to see the difference. Remember, only prepare a single edit, as someone might edit in between, which would cock edits up. You might want to use your sandbox to prepare it. Let me know when you are ready, and we'll go from there. Okay? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 23:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
4.91.105.165 22:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)Should we put tildes on both sides of our comments? Anyway, a little research in the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary reveals that the word "snape" is a variant of "sneap," meaning to chastise or punish. I desired to point this out by editing, but apparently I aam incapable of doing so. I would request someone with an account (that is, someone less uneasy about their personal security than myself) to effect this change. 4.91.105.165 22:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Arcayne, on the matter of Snape and Lily's, falling out, I reviewed Chapter 23, and indeed, Lily referenced both the epithet that Snape hurled toward her, and Snape's consorting with wannabe Death Eaters as her reasons for the breakdown of their friendship. I apologize for insisting without first reviewing the passage. I've incorporated both reasons into the article.
As for the section title, there are two types of section titles used for articles on fictional characters. The first is "Character biography" or "Fictional character biography". This title, or some variation of it, is the standard used in the articles on the Weasley twins, Dumbldore, Sirius Black, etc., as well as articles on other long-running fictional characters like Batman, Spider-Man, Superman (Kal-L), Captain Kirk, Benjamin Sisko, Brooke English, Roland Deschain, etc. The other title, which I've only seen in the Harry Potter articles, is "In the Books", which is used in the Ron Weasley, Hermione Granger, Hagrid, and Draco Malfoy articles. Either would be an appropriate section title in this article. Remus Lupin's article actually uses both. The only one I've ever seen that uses "Appearances", is the Voldemort article, but that article does not present his life in an in-universe, chronological order, and lumps his movie appearances in the same main section with his depictions in the book. Since Snape's article indeed presents his biography as such, I think it's more appropriate, and would bring it in line with the vast majority of other Harry Potter articles in particular, and fictional character articles in general. Thanks. Nightscream 06:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
This line of the article
"Dumbledore decides that Snape will kill him, both an act of euthanasia, as a testament of his apparent loyalty to Voldemort, and as a way to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow."
implies that Snape did not know that Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him. However, the timing of Dumbledore's request and the Unbreakable Vow are not clear in the books. Both events happen in the summer well before school starts (since Dumbledore already has the wound when he picks up Harry, and since Snape is at Spinner's End when he gets the visit from Narcissa). In my reading of the Spinner's End chapter in the book, Snape knew Dumbledore's wish and made a mental calculation that that was probably what Draco was assigned to do.
In anycase, the timing of events is not clear, so that line "as a way to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow" should be changed.
168.103.162.222 17:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I've responded to the part about the Pensieve on Arcayne's Talk Page. Nightscream 16:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)