Do we have any other sources that cite the 1879 completion date? I'd rather we did that, instead of just removing information that is likely to be true and useful, albeit unsourced.
Ritchie333(talk)(cont)11:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Surely Huxley covers this - although I can't find my copy right now. It's in all the lightweight books.
The best source though, because of the coincidence, would be Gooch or Richardson's memoirs of the opening lunch in October 1879. Gooch invited those present to visit the works at the
Severn Tunnel in a few weeks, but "It will be rather wet, and you had better bring your umbrellas." Richardson, sitting quietly and not wanting to ruin the day, had just been told the news from the tunnel that the Great Spring had broken in - it was of course some years before the tunnel recovered. This is cited in Walker's Severn Tunnel book (p10 in the 2004 edition).
Andy Dingley (
talk)
12:15, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
MacDermot, E.T. (1931). History of the Great Western Railway, vol. II: 1863-1921. Paddington:
Great Western Railway. p. 404.
OCLC55853736.
which says "Contracts for the construction of the railway and bridge were let in March 1875, and both were opened for traffic on the 17th October 1879, the amalgamation of the Severn & Wye and Severn Bridge Companies taking effect from that day." It's not likely that the bridge was completed more than a few weeks earlier, although there will have been some delay between completion and opening, if only for the Board of Trade inspector to check it over and pass it as fit. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
14:32, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Quite so. The Huxley book is quite short on dates, but the opening ceremony took place in October 1879 so I think it is a reasonable assumption that it was completed in 1879.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
17:24, 2 September 2016 (UTC)reply
It was approached from the north via a masonry viaduct - what about from the south?
Strictly (although WP abuses this) staging and scaffolding are somewhat diffferent. Staging, like centring, can support a partially-constructed building or arch. Scaffolding is lighter and just gives workers access to it.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
12:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
What makes www.forgottenrelics.co.uk a reliable source?
Okay, I've checked it out and it seems to be professionally written and credits photographs correctly, and doesn't seem to contradict anything in the book sources. So in that respect, I think we can accept this. Incidentally, some of the links at the bottom of that source might be worth adding as external links here, first hand accounts and pictures of the 1960 accident, for example.
Ritchie333(talk)(cont)18:04, 31 August 2016 (UTC)reply
Staging was laid and rails put in place.... - is this the same staging as mentioned earlier, or something else?
The bridge was
single track, and when it was built, it took approximately 30 miles (48 km) off the journey from Bristol to Cardiff - these two sentences don't seem to relate to each other - could they be split up? Also, the 30 miles claim doesn't appear to be in the source given, and is contradicted by later prose saying the detour is 40 miles. Which is right?
Done. They could both be right. The 30 miles claim is Bristol to Cardiff and was in the article before I expanded it, referenced to Huxley. The 40 mile journey involves children going from Sheerness to Lydney, a different journey altogether.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
18:26, 31 August 2016 (UTC)reply
The Forest of Dean coal trade continued to be depressed - what does "depressed" mean in this context?
A stylistic note - sources from British History Online are transcriptions of books and journals, so they should be cited accordingly, with the BHO address as a convenience link. At the top of each article is some text explaining how to format a citation, I think they used to have a Wikipedia citation template variant, but that's gone. :-(
a short headshunt on the trackbed - what does "headshunt" mean in this context?
Some time later, Ann Wood repeated this underflying – without realising that this time it was high tide and there was 30 ft (9 m) less headroom - why was this a problem? Did the plane crash?
Railways. Needs some coverage of the
Westerleigh loop and the (unintended?) effect that a shared minor connection to the bridge had for profitable express services between Bristol and Birmingham, and competition between the GWR and MR after 1908.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
11:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Have there been any further accidents in this location since the bridge was demolished?
Not as far as I know. There were some others earlier in its existence caused by vessels being swept by the tide into the piers. Once the piers and debris were removed, this hazard was over as ships cannot navigate this stretch of water at low tide.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
17:20, 31 August 2016 (UTC)reply
Some of the book page citations don't seem to add up. A 27-page span on Huxley's book in particular, is too much. I would have thought it would be easier to add the book as a general reference with ref=harv and use the {{
sfn}} or {{
harvnb}} citations as templates. We should strive to be as specific as we can with a citation, to give everyone confidence what we write is true and accurate!
Ritchie333(talk)(cont)09:35, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
I don't use Harvey or whatever because I don't know how. @
Andy Dingley: With other people joining in the review it is all getting a bit complex and unless Andy would like to make the changes he thinks necessary, I think I will leave this till after the West Country Challenge is over.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
17:28, 2 September 2016 (UTC)reply
The problem is Huxley - and where my copy is. I'm happy to do any editing needed, what's needed first is to note which of the cites are using which pages in Huxley - rather than a single bulk cite to the whole range.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
17:35, 2 September 2016 (UTC)reply
The links between short and full refs weren't working, because of the presence of parentheses, so I removed them, at the same time altering {{
sfn}} to {{
sfnp}} which accepts the same parameters but displays the year in parenthesis. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
08:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Just so you know
Cwmhiraeth this article doesn't have to pass GA by the end of the contest to count, so if you want to do some more destubbing in the closing hours of the contest and come back to this tomorrow that's fine.♦
Dr. Blofeld17:44, 4 September 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Ritchie333: I have added a paragraph on other plans for crossing the Severn, including one by Brunel. I have dealt with Andy's passenger services point, but not his point about the Westerleigh loop, of which I know nothing. I would point out that a GA is not required to be comprehensive, merely broad in its scope.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
17:47, 4 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Do we have any other sources that cite the 1879 completion date? I'd rather we did that, instead of just removing information that is likely to be true and useful, albeit unsourced.
Ritchie333(talk)(cont)11:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Surely Huxley covers this - although I can't find my copy right now. It's in all the lightweight books.
The best source though, because of the coincidence, would be Gooch or Richardson's memoirs of the opening lunch in October 1879. Gooch invited those present to visit the works at the
Severn Tunnel in a few weeks, but "It will be rather wet, and you had better bring your umbrellas." Richardson, sitting quietly and not wanting to ruin the day, had just been told the news from the tunnel that the Great Spring had broken in - it was of course some years before the tunnel recovered. This is cited in Walker's Severn Tunnel book (p10 in the 2004 edition).
Andy Dingley (
talk)
12:15, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
MacDermot, E.T. (1931). History of the Great Western Railway, vol. II: 1863-1921. Paddington:
Great Western Railway. p. 404.
OCLC55853736.
which says "Contracts for the construction of the railway and bridge were let in March 1875, and both were opened for traffic on the 17th October 1879, the amalgamation of the Severn & Wye and Severn Bridge Companies taking effect from that day." It's not likely that the bridge was completed more than a few weeks earlier, although there will have been some delay between completion and opening, if only for the Board of Trade inspector to check it over and pass it as fit. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
14:32, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Quite so. The Huxley book is quite short on dates, but the opening ceremony took place in October 1879 so I think it is a reasonable assumption that it was completed in 1879.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
17:24, 2 September 2016 (UTC)reply
It was approached from the north via a masonry viaduct - what about from the south?
Strictly (although WP abuses this) staging and scaffolding are somewhat diffferent. Staging, like centring, can support a partially-constructed building or arch. Scaffolding is lighter and just gives workers access to it.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
12:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
What makes www.forgottenrelics.co.uk a reliable source?
Okay, I've checked it out and it seems to be professionally written and credits photographs correctly, and doesn't seem to contradict anything in the book sources. So in that respect, I think we can accept this. Incidentally, some of the links at the bottom of that source might be worth adding as external links here, first hand accounts and pictures of the 1960 accident, for example.
Ritchie333(talk)(cont)18:04, 31 August 2016 (UTC)reply
Staging was laid and rails put in place.... - is this the same staging as mentioned earlier, or something else?
The bridge was
single track, and when it was built, it took approximately 30 miles (48 km) off the journey from Bristol to Cardiff - these two sentences don't seem to relate to each other - could they be split up? Also, the 30 miles claim doesn't appear to be in the source given, and is contradicted by later prose saying the detour is 40 miles. Which is right?
Done. They could both be right. The 30 miles claim is Bristol to Cardiff and was in the article before I expanded it, referenced to Huxley. The 40 mile journey involves children going from Sheerness to Lydney, a different journey altogether.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
18:26, 31 August 2016 (UTC)reply
The Forest of Dean coal trade continued to be depressed - what does "depressed" mean in this context?
A stylistic note - sources from British History Online are transcriptions of books and journals, so they should be cited accordingly, with the BHO address as a convenience link. At the top of each article is some text explaining how to format a citation, I think they used to have a Wikipedia citation template variant, but that's gone. :-(
a short headshunt on the trackbed - what does "headshunt" mean in this context?
Some time later, Ann Wood repeated this underflying – without realising that this time it was high tide and there was 30 ft (9 m) less headroom - why was this a problem? Did the plane crash?
Railways. Needs some coverage of the
Westerleigh loop and the (unintended?) effect that a shared minor connection to the bridge had for profitable express services between Bristol and Birmingham, and competition between the GWR and MR after 1908.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
11:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Have there been any further accidents in this location since the bridge was demolished?
Not as far as I know. There were some others earlier in its existence caused by vessels being swept by the tide into the piers. Once the piers and debris were removed, this hazard was over as ships cannot navigate this stretch of water at low tide.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
17:20, 31 August 2016 (UTC)reply
Some of the book page citations don't seem to add up. A 27-page span on Huxley's book in particular, is too much. I would have thought it would be easier to add the book as a general reference with ref=harv and use the {{
sfn}} or {{
harvnb}} citations as templates. We should strive to be as specific as we can with a citation, to give everyone confidence what we write is true and accurate!
Ritchie333(talk)(cont)09:35, 1 September 2016 (UTC)reply
I don't use Harvey or whatever because I don't know how. @
Andy Dingley: With other people joining in the review it is all getting a bit complex and unless Andy would like to make the changes he thinks necessary, I think I will leave this till after the West Country Challenge is over.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
17:28, 2 September 2016 (UTC)reply
The problem is Huxley - and where my copy is. I'm happy to do any editing needed, what's needed first is to note which of the cites are using which pages in Huxley - rather than a single bulk cite to the whole range.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
17:35, 2 September 2016 (UTC)reply
The links between short and full refs weren't working, because of the presence of parentheses, so I removed them, at the same time altering {{
sfn}} to {{
sfnp}} which accepts the same parameters but displays the year in parenthesis. --
Redrose64 (
talk)
08:30, 3 September 2016 (UTC)reply
Just so you know
Cwmhiraeth this article doesn't have to pass GA by the end of the contest to count, so if you want to do some more destubbing in the closing hours of the contest and come back to this tomorrow that's fine.♦
Dr. Blofeld17:44, 4 September 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Ritchie333: I have added a paragraph on other plans for crossing the Severn, including one by Brunel. I have dealt with Andy's passenger services point, but not his point about the Westerleigh loop, of which I know nothing. I would point out that a GA is not required to be comprehensive, merely broad in its scope.
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
17:47, 4 September 2016 (UTC)reply