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I'm not qualified to edit the article, but I think one thing missing, that is relevant would be something about the beliefs regarding reconciliation for those that disobey the seven laws of Noah (i.e. beliefs regarding "forgiveness" (can a person supposedly LOSE their "place in the world to come" and/or gain back a "place in the world to come"? Might also be relevant to better define what "place in the world to come" means (and equally important, what it means to NOT have a place in the world to come!)
Also there is brief mention in the article about prosthelization - if it is generally accepted by Jews that following Noah's seven laws is the key for Gentiles to gain a place in the world to come why don't they generally share this information with Gentiles (I don't know anyone that has even ever heard of noah's seven laws, I just happened to stumble across it)? This info seems pretty relevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.76.72 ( talk) 15:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Someone insisted on categorising this with Category:Jewish Christian topics. I dispute this. The Noahide Laws have no role in Christianity, and post-hoc apologetics will not change this. Christianity has never attempted to satisfy the Noahide Laws, and there is a strong indication from some Jewish sources that Christianity can't actually conform to the Noahide Laws. JFW | T@lk 23:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
According to organised Christianity rejection of the Nicene Creed is a departure from Christianity. But whatever, this is not a "Jewish Christian topic". At the so-called interface between Christiany and Judaism the Noahide Laws have never featured. JFW | T@lk 22:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
In addition, Ben, you are correct in the understanding that most calling themselves Christian do view the acknowledgement of the trinitarian nature of the One Most High, as required for orthodox Christianity; this is not an undeniably written doctrine in the scriptures understood as either the original Hebrew, or even the Christian New Testament. There are a few Christian sects that view this teaching as human speculation, and possibly Pagan in origination. The article includes discussion the idolatrous nature of trinitarian belief. We are in basic agreement on the subject, I believe; our differences might be on the description of Christianity as only those groups that accept trinitarianism as orthodox, or acceptable.-- Kevin 03:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The material on Christianity vs the Noahide Laws was sprinkled through the article. I have now moved everything to the relevant section, and I suggest all Christianity-related content remains there. It's odd that while this is a Jewish subject, about half the article is still about whether it is to be accepted by Christians, discriminatory of Christians, a part of Christian history, etc etc. Perhaps some condensation and rationalisation, with the necessary source support (which is now lacking) will make the article more lean & mean. JFW | T@lk 15:55, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
There has not been friction between the groups for 2000 years because of the Noahide Laws. The friction is because most Jews would not convert to Christianity, and were subsequently accused of deicide. I'm quite unhappy with your new fork Noachian Law, which I've put of AFD for obvious reasons. This is one article on the concept of the expectations of Jewish law from Gentiles. Nothing more and nothing less. Please just work on the "christianity" section on this page; removing all irrelevant content and sourcing the remainder will do more good than creating a new article to flesh out every single point. JFW | T@lk 22:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I will have no further discussion if you feel the need to rant about "Jewish pomposity", "arrogance", "self-righteousness" etc. You'd better change your tone, and fast. Obviously you have unconventional views. If you expect to be taken seriously you'd better start providing some useful outside evidence on the role of Noahide Laws in Primitive Apostolic Christianity. JFW | T@lk 04:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
This article needs to be split into "Noahide Laws in Judaism" and "Noahide Laws in Christianity" because of dictatorial statements like this: "I think splitting the article is the worst thing one can do. There are no "Christian" Noahide Laws. I think all the relevant information can easily be contained in this article. In fact, I think the Christian relevance is much overstated. I'd say >95% of all Christians would not have the slightest idea what the Noahide Laws are, as they are a distinctly Jewish phenomenon. There will be no split and no disambiguation page." The Jewish material should go to "Noahide Laws in Judaism" and the Christian material, which a certain dictator claims does not exist, should go to "Noahide Laws in Christianity". There is plenty of precedent for this for obvious reasons: Old Testament versus Jewish Bible, Sabbath versus Shabbat, Passover (Christian holiday) versus Passover, Christ versus Messiah, Hell versus Gehenna, etc. Obviously, both Judaism and Christianity are based on the same source material, but draw different conclusions, for this reason articles should be split, neither side will ever agree that the other might be correct or sometimes that another side even exists. But of course it does, and neutrality dictates seperate articles. 63.201.24.99 ( talk · contribs)
"Noachian law" appears to simply be a variant of "Noahide Law", and is used to describe the Noahide laws. What encyclopedic sources are you using for your descriptions of the Christian view of them? Because I haven't been able to find any. Jayjg (talk) 21:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
And I will repeat my question: where is the term "Noahide". If these laws are not identical with the 7 laws from the Talmud, and nobody calls them "Noahide Laws" (including your source above), why use this article as your vehicle? JFW | T@lk 15:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Those are some peri-Noahide laws (Melchizedek lived after Noah, and Job's epoch is not certain). But the Noahide laws without a modifier refers to the seven laws from Talmud Sanhedrin. How about you move this content to Apostolic Constitutions. It seems we have found a home for it after all. JFW | T@lk 20:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
No, the correct Hebrew term is Sheva Mitzvot Bnay Noach, "The Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noah". There is no Christian term for it; Christians don't do the Sheva Mitzvot, at least they hadn't done so until Jewish writers brought them into the public discourse in the 20th century.
Your reply aimed at me personally shows in all its colours how poorly you have read the above discussion. There are no Christian Noahide Laws! There are some pre-Abrahamititic laws that the Primitive Apostolic Christianity people express a great deal of interest in, such as the High Sabbaths, but you are morbidly mistaken that this subject should go "back into its source of the Talmud" (whatever you mean by that). The majority of the article is about this phenomenon in Jewish law and its adherents of the newly developing Noahide movement. This is not a Jewish-Christian topic, and your irony is completely misplaced. JFW | T@lk 23:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and for the record, Kevin, one of the protagonists of the Jewish-Christian theory, has done the sensible thing and moved the relevant content to Primitive Apostolic Christianity. I'm pleased we're finally getting somewhere. JFW | T@lk 23:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Simply speaking, the "Noahide Laws" are a Jewish concept, and are only testified to in Jewish sources. Some writers have argued that they overlap the "Apostolic laws", that POV is an entirely modern view. Jayjg (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
So what? JFW | T@lk 00:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I suppose it's always possible that they do, but what does that have to do with the Noahide laws? Jayjg (talk) 00:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear 209.78.18.73, there are no Christian Noahide Laws. There are some laws mentioned in Acts 15, which seem to be Jewish laws meant for non-Jews, but they are not called Noahide laws, the non-Jews in question are not designated "Noahides", and so on. You can do with your Platonic logic anything you like, but not mangle terminology until it suits your point of view. The "neutral historical perspective" does not seem to be in agreement with you. JFW | T@lk 13:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I've made no such claim; rather, I'm pointing out that there are no pre-20th century sources which refer to "Noahide laws". All you need to do to disprove that is to cite reputable sources which provide references to "Christian Noahide Laws". Jayjg (talk) 00:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Kevin: show me one serious source that supports your assertions. Otherwise please do not post on this page. Jayjg and myself have requested numerous times that you support your ideas with evidence. All you have just done in your comment today is rehash the same comments you've been making since the beginning of this discussion, and I think we'd be going round in circles if I were to explain to you again the relevance of the original research policy here. JFW | T@lk 04:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Kevin, why has it taken you more than a week to come up with some basic sources? Moseley wrote the cited material in 1993, which is several decades after Lubavitch started popularising the Noahide Laws. The Flusser book he quotes is from 1988, and the Lichtenstein book is actually a Jewish source - it does not discuss this phenomenon in Christianity. So we have a small number of authors borrowing the Jewish term to refer to the Apostolic Constitutions. So what has happened is that Jewish terminology was applied to these laws after they gained popularity in the scientific and popular press. I find this a fairly poor reason to start a parallel page, as this phenomenon did not develop independently but in response to the Jewish "Seven Commandments". In what way do you disagree with my conclusions? Doesn't it make much more sense to say that "Christian writers in the 20th century found similarity between the Noahide Laws and the Apostolic Constitutions" with a reference to Moseley? I think this is the best way forward. JFW | T@lk 18:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
As all these authors are developing their terminology borrowing from the Jewish concept I am not inclined to change my mind here. If you can prove to me that any aspect of Christian law was called Noahide, Noachian or anything similar by notable Christian writers prior it the popularisation of the concept by Jewish writers will I be anywhere close to conceding. Otherwise, you are invited to change the Christian adoption paragraph according to our discussion above. JFW | T@lk 20:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Kevhorn ( talk · contribs) created another fork to confuse the issues. Noachian Covenant now redirects here. The links can be removed. Please provide evidence that any writer uses the term "Noachian Covenant" in any context. This is getting tiresome. JFW | T@lk 03:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
On the basis of the limited evidence that Kevin has given us I have now removed most speculative material from the section in question. Most of it was speculative, unsourced and hence likely to be original research. I will repeat my assertion that until the 20th century few Christians cared for the Jewish concept of "Noahide Laws", and all else is historical revisionism of doubtful significance. JFW | T@lk 03:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The list of external links includes what looks like some vanispamcruft. I am pruning the list per my understanding of WP:EL:
Yahoo groups, tripod pages, "I think that too" pages and so on are not good, authoritative sources. The Jewish Encyclopaedia is, and the Institute of Noahide Law apperars to be as well (although anyone can call themselves an Institute, so I might be misjudging that) - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/ [C] AfD? 11:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there more information about what rabbis say about Islam being a Noahide religion? Thank you. RedCrescent 04:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of rules there, do you want me to go through each one? Since you are deleting it, you have the burden to prove that it violates those rules. Why don't you tell me what provision there has been violated. Then we can talk. In the meantime would some neutral wikipedia people please weigh in so we can reach a consensus.
"the ... principles ... upon which our great Nation was founded ... known as the Seven Noahide Laws ... without these ... civilization stands in serious peril of ... chaos ... Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991 ... in tribute to this great spiritual leader ... his ninetieth year will ... turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws" Sure do seem to be a bunch of "..."s in this quote. "the...principles...upon which our great Nation was founded...known as the Seven Noahide Laws..." Is this accurate and contextual? -- Yodamace1 20:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
In modern Hebrew, the term 'gilui arayot' refers to incest alone. In Biblical Hebrew, besides incest, it also referred to a woman having sex with a man who is not her husband, regardless of relation. However, none of these definitions imply a generic rule of sexual morality. Where did the broadening of the definition to include other supposed-sexually immoral acts come from? If this isn't a mistake, it needs to be sourced. -- Telecart 21:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein who wrote a book about Noahide Laws is NOT the same Rabbi Dr. Aaron Lichtenstein, the Rosh yeshiva of Yeshivat Har Etzion. I think he might be a first cousin. Jon513 21:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The ip address 203.214.133.79 believes that the section Christianity "need[s] to be rewritten with more accurecy". Jon513 17:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
The article belongs in the Judaism section. It has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is idolatry according to the Noachide Laws. Keep this article under Judaism. This article shouldn't have anything to do with Jewish-Christian "dialogue."
The key word here is JEWISH-Christian. You are eliminating the Jewish bit and keeping the Christian part
The article belongs in the "Judaism" section. It has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is idolatry according to the Noachide Laws. Keep this article under Judaism. This article shouldn't have anything to do with Jewish-Christian "dialogue." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.243.60.3 ( talk) 20:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The external links on this page has gotten out of hand. Looking at the links, very few of them met the criteria of Wikipedia:External links and should be removed. I have already tried to removed many of these sites in the past and they seem to just be constantly put back in. I don't have any inclination in edit waring with such people. Jon513 19:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I find the layout of this article to be too inclusive of different noahide issues. Please note, I agree that the content is good, I am acting in good faith.
The main point is that the Seven Laws of Noah will only be about the laws, the origin and their subdividions. All else will have its own article. Chavatshimshon 06:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Chavatshimshon, sorry I'm late to the party. I guess you noticed my discussion of the Noahide Laws in the Clementine literature, which are believed to be of Jewish-Christian origin. How can I help with the cleanup? Ovadyah 02:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
There is plenty of WP:RS, see Council of Jerusalem. Also, "Noahide Law" is an English phrase, not a Jewish phrase. 75.14.223.198 19:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Folks, I was asked to come here to help, not pour more gas on the fire, so please assume I am acting in good faith. A lot of sharp disagreements are taking place on this talk page. Imho, some disagreement is healthy, and it will make for a better article. Don't let it degrade into incivility. (See the Nazarene archives for how bad it can be.)
First of all, our job as editors is to report the facts as we find them in credible sources. Stating that the Noahide Laws are Jewish halakah, and therefore the mainstream opinion, is original research. Citing a review article or scholarly publication that says so is reporting the evidence. The Talmud is an appropriate source for listing the Noahide Laws. An editor's interpretation of what the Noahide Laws mean based on the Talmud is religious commentary, and therefore, original research. I would say the same for any commentary about Acts 15 or the Clementines. Similarly, stating that Acts 15 and the Clementines are a separate subject is an opinion. Fine for the talk page, not fine for the article. A published source that reaches that conclusion is fine for the article. An opposing view from a published source that says they all derive from the same source document is also fine, and including that view would make for an even better article. Follow the evidence. Ovadyah 20:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I am going to proceed with the cleanup by creating an archive on the talk page for Noahide Groups and move the Recent Developments and Other Religions as Noahide sections into it, as I stated previously. Nothing will be lost. We need to narrow the scope of the article and focus on the essentials. Ovadyah 01:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I would not waste time right now on the Subdividing the Seven Laws section. This all needs to be rewritten in summary style. Let's work on the lead section and the Intro/Backgound and Seven Laws sections first. Ovadyah 01:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I created an External Links section in the archive. Someone, please move most of these links to the archive, and only keep the links that are essential for the Noahide Laws. Ovadyah 01:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm really not quite sure why a large amount of fairly high-quality content has been removed on 12 Dec. [2] Specifically, the move for a Sanhedrin and the role of other religions were covered in a fairly even-handed manner. There is no indication that sufficient consensus was achieved before this removal. I have reintroduced said material. JFW | T@lk 23:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Consensus? Please read WP:CON before labelling my actions as unilateral. Noahide Groups is not an article and I dispute the need for its creation. I think this article is a good container article for all things Noahide, and the title is quite good (as without Noahide Laws there is no suitable definition for Noahide). JFW | T@lk 16:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I added requests for citations in the lead section. Better to add them as you introduce new material than scramble at the end to find all the sources. Right now, the article has a mix of reference tags and inline citations. It's better style to go all one way or the other. Personally, I think ref tags are less intrusive to the flow of the article. Ovadyah 15:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
A quick look at the intro suggests serious POV and reliability problems. One comparitively minor problem is representing certain Orthodox beliefs as being the beliefs of all of Judaism. A much more serious problem is representing the B'nei Noah, a tiny group which is only borderline notable, as being something substantial. For example, I deleted the sentence "Adherents are often called B'nei Noah (Children of Noah) or Noahides and may often congregate in Jewish synagogues". While I agree the B'nei Noah are (barely) notable enough to get an article, the reality is almost nobody has heard of them, and they're almost never found congregating tin Jewish synagogues -- repeated use of the word "often" gives a tiny group an appearence of common-ness that it just doesnt' have. The article seems to have a number of problems of this sort. Article needs rewriting to focus on its topic -- the 7 Laws of Noah as articulated in Orthodox Judaism -- with a tiny mention at the end that there is a small group of people interested in doing this. It also needs to conform to WP:NPOV and WP:OR in places. Best, -- Shirahadasha 17:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
In the Clementine Homilies chp. 7.4 are part of the Proclamations of Peter that sound much like the Noahide Laws:
"And the things which are well-pleasing to God are these:
and the rest in one word,-- as the God-fearing Jews have heard, do you also hear, and be of one mind in many bodies; let each man be minded to do to his neighbour those good things he wishes for himself.
"And you may all find out what is good, by holding some such conversation as the following with yourselves:
The Homilies date from the 3rd or 4th century. Ovadyah 04:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I came across an article that argues, persuasively imho, that Acts 15 and the Noahide Laws do not share a common source. [3] It also discusses an alternative theory that the requirements of Acts 15 were derived from Leviticus 17-18. Both theories have their problems, and the article debunks them in detail. The article concludes that all four of the prohibitions involve things associated with pagan cults. Almost lost in the footnotes is the observation that the Western text of Acts 15 has only three prohibitions, which agree with Rabbinic traditions about the three primary sins of the Gentiles - idolatry, shedding of blood, and immorality. Interesting reading. :) Ovadyah 04:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
As it is right now there are only two sentences mentioning Noahides. They are from "advertisements".
I have reinserted the Six Laws of Adam link. They are mentioned in primary sources such as the Talmud, and Yad Hachasaka of the Rambam. Please discuss. frummer 07:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The article says:
Could whoever posted this quote the exact source--not just the book's name but the author, date published, and page no. of this quote. If this info. is not provided, I think this phrase ought to be removed. Yehoishophot Oliver 16:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Whoever wrote that this contradicts the Rambam is completely right. You can find what Rambam wrote about non-Jews who keep the Noahide laws being allowed to keep Jewish commandments as well in Hilkhoth Melakhim u'Milhhemothehem 10:11-13 [9-10 in inaccurate texts] This book of halakha is part of Sefer Shoftim in the Mishneh Torah of the Rambam. I pointed out this very thing on my website: http://sagavyah.tripod.com/id68.html
It is true that the non-Jew remains prohibited from FULLY keep the Torah as a Jew, but the limitation itself is very limited. I know that either the Shulhhan Arukh, or some other popular (and latter) work of halakha adds to the prohibition that they can not wear tefillin. A Jew is prohibited to help idolators appear as Jews, such as to wear tzitzit. A non-Jew who keeps the Noahide laws is not considered an idolator in Jewish law. There are MANY distinctions between the two types of non-Jews.
Yosef Omedyashar 10:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
The absurd claim is made here that Maimonides holds that "Islam is a Noahide religion." This is nonsense, if it means to imply that observance of Islam is permitted for non-Jews. It's not as it violates his clear prohibition of inventing a new religion:
All that Maimonides says is that non-Jews do not technically violate the prohibition of idolatry be following Islam. But they do violate the above prohinition and therefore it is simply incorrect to imply otherwise. I am unaware of any statement of the Ran (Rabeinu Nisim) on this matter, but if whoever posted it would like to enlighten me, I'd appreciate it. In the meantime I've removed it because the whole concept is absurd, aside from the fact that it's unsourced. Yehoishophot Oliver 18:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Are you for real? Maimonides specifically says that inventing religious practices is forbidden for gentiles, and you expect the words "according to Maimonides, Islam is a Noahide religion" when Islam is clearly an invented religious practice from the perspective of Orthodox Judaism to be left unedited?! That's aside from the fact that no source was adduced anyway for the preposterous claim that "Islam is a Noahide religion".
As for the answer to Reb Ovadya the Ger, all it says there is that Islam is not idolatry for non-Jews! Idolatry is only ONE of the Noahide laws. It does not therefore follow that Islam is acceptable for non-Jews, when Maimonides there simply doesn't address the acceptability of Islam vis a vis the other Noahide laws. Yehoishophot Oliver 12:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have edited this section. The former version implied that if Christianity is not considered idolatrous as it is shituf and that is not forbidden for non-Jews, this necessarily implies that Christianity is acceptable for non-Jews. This is simply false. There are other aspects of Christianity that can, and, many argue, do constitute violation of the Noahide laws. In any case, the fact that it is proven that there is a controversy over the specific prohibition of idolatry in no way proves the attitude of Judaism to Christianity in terms of other aspects of the Noahide Code. This distortion (intended or not) is identical to that of the section on Islam whose editing I have justified above. Yehoishophot Oliver 10:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
This whole section needs sources, and could arguably be blanked until it has them. Basejumper 13:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I just took out the unsourced part, it should be added if there is a source. TO put in an article that some Jewish opinions regard Christians as idol worshipers definitely needs sourced quite strongly. Basejumper 13:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for showing me these, but they seem to indicate it is idolatry for Jews, but permissbale for non-Jews. ALso, the first one indicates that according to the Satmar Rav Zionism is idol worship. I hope you are not suggesting that we add that Zionism is a violation of the 7 Noahide laws. Basejumper 17:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I by no means claim to be a scholar in Noahide Laws or biblical studies. Looking through the article though, I do not feel that there is a clear distinction between the things that are in the Jewish Bible (the Tanach) and the Talmud. It seems like a lot of the claims do not come from the Tanach (or at least, I can't find them). Looking at Genesis 9:4-6, for example, which is the first source, I can only find three of the seven laws explicitly stated. Like I said, I'm not very familiar with all this, but it seems to me like it should at the very least clarified by someone who knows what they are doing. As some of the earlier comments also said, there are also a lot of claims about what is "according to Judiasm" which do not apply to all practiced and accepted forms of Judaism. I think perhaps this is a similar thing that needs to be clarified. If the Tanach does in fact make explicate statement to the Noahide Laws (all seven that is), perhaps those sections should be added to the refrences. Like I said, I'm not really very qualified to be changing or clarifying any of this, but as I do stand, I am confused. Thanks! Crito2161 02:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
This appears twice, once in the introduction and once under background, stating that gentiles are forbidden from carrying out certain mitzvot (commandments). In the introduction, the reference is to Talmud Baveli and is vague enough that I couldn't follow it. In the second case, it's to a Jewish Encyclopedia entry that has a lot more gray than the absolute proscription implied. I feel these statements should either be backed up more clearly or, better yet, removed, as they are unnecessarily inflammatory. -- GUSwim 04:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to chime in on the discussion above, but I do have an observation that may be somewhat on point to the general subject. When the article says "It is actually forbidden by the Talmud for non-Jews on whom the Noahide Laws are still binding, to elevate their observance to the Torah's mitzvot as the Jews do", I don't understand it. I have a grasp of all the words, but the meaning of the sentence eludes me -- and the citation isn't helpful to me. I'm not qualified to edit or to say what is relevant to this topic or not, but I believe that whatever is included should be presented in a clear manner. Sweet byrd ( talk) 18:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
75.21.116.175 ( talk) 05:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if it would be useful for readers if this was mentioned. A brief quotation: In the Krause MS, under the head of "the Laws or Obligations laid before his brother Masons by Prince Edwin," we find the following article .... 'The first obligation is that you shall sincerely honor God and obey the laws of the Noachites....'" http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/mackeyfr.html It would require an expert in the field, if admitted. 142.68.44.156 00:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a good discussion of this point http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/anti-masonry08.html (see Are freemasons really Noahides?) and a discussion of the point from a rabbinic point of view at the end of the page http://en.wikinoah.org/index.php/Freemasonry_and_Noahide_Law -- Ibn nuh 07:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
"The Noahide Laws were predated by six laws given to Adam in the Garden of Eden."
Can anyone name these six laws ?
Siyac 15:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd find it helpful if someone could elaborate on what it means to not be Jewish, but to recognize God and acknowledge him as the source of the seven laws. I understand that the Jews are not just people who believe in their god, but ones who have a special relationship with him. But does that mean that non-Jews are still expected to worship the same god as the Jews (in the sense of believing that the Jews are correct in their theology and cosmology), or would any monotheistic religion qualify as long as it upheld these laws and saw its god as their originator? Inhumandecency 02:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
[He is considered a Pious Gentile] only when he accepts them [the Noahide laws] and fulfills them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us [the Jewish people] via Moses, our teacher, that even previously [i.e., before the Giving of the Torah at Sinai], Noah’s descendants were commanded to fulfill them. However, if he fulfils them out of intellectual conviction, he is not a resident alien, nor of the Pious among the Gentiles, nor of their wise men. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, 8:11)
75.21.116.175 ( talk) 05:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
in hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נוח.
seven=שבע
mitsvot/laws=מצוות
sons (of)=בני
noah=נוח
please change it, it{s not the mitsvot of noah himself!!
I agree with your translation, but we have no obligation to name it the same way as the Hebrew version. The Bible narratives shows the laws being given to Noah, so the current name is not inappropriate. The Hebrew name reflects the idea that the laws were intended for his descendants to keep as well... but this name does not appear in the Bible. -- Dweller ( talk) 17:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Here I give you what the bible said, the original one!!!
וַיְבָרֶךְ אֱלֹהִים, אֶת נֹחַ וְאֶת בָּנָיו; וַיֹּאמֶר לָהֶם פְּרוּ וּרְבוּ, וּמִלְאוּ אֶת הָאָרֶץ. וּמוֹרַאֲכֶם וְחִתְּכֶם, יִהְיֶה, עַל כָּל חַיַּת הָאָרֶץ, וְעַל כָּל עוֹף הַשָּׁמָיִם; בְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר תִּרְמֹשׂ הָאֲדָמָה וּבְכָל דְּגֵי הַיָּם, בְּיֶדְכֶם נִתָּנוּ. כָּל-רֶמֶשׂ אֲשֶׁר הוּא חַי, לָכֶם יִהְיֶה לְאָכְלָה: כְּיֶרֶק עֵשֶׂב, נָתַתִּי לָכֶם אֶת כֹּל. אַךְ בָּשָׂר, בְּנַפְשׁוֹ דָמוֹ לֹא תֹאכֵלוּ. וְאַךְ אֶת דִּמְכֶם לְנַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם אֶדְרֹשׁ, מִיַּד כָּל חַיָּה אֶדְרְשֶׁנּוּ; וּמִיַּד הָאָדָם, מִיַּד אִישׁ אָחִיו אֶדְרֹשׁ, אֶת נֶפֶשׁ הָאָדָם. שֹׁפֵךְ דַּם הָאָדָם, בָּאָדָם דָּמוֹ יִשָּׁפֵךְ: כִּי בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים, עָשָׂה אֶת הָאָדָם. וְאַתֶּם, פְּרוּ וּרְבוּ; שִׁרְצוּ בָאָרֶץ, וּרְבוּ בָהּ.
and in free translation (the bolded part): "and god blessed Noah and his sons and He told them..." He talked to Noah too, but the 7 orders were to his sons. I don't think god gave Noah the order Prohibition of Idolatry in while Noah was 600 years old! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.0.250.44 (
talk) 20:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
While reading through this article I noticed that some material had either been misplaced or was scattered through the article. I have taken the liberty of doing the following reorganizations. If they are of concern, please feel free to revert:
Egfrank ( talk) 19:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
In Seven_Laws_of_Noah#The_Christian_Trinity_and_the_prohibition_against_idolatry I'm uncertain of the causal relationship explicit in the statement that "Christians consider themselves monotheists and as such non-idolators." This section seems to describe well the difficulties of the Trinity, but seems not to touch on more–if I may–obvious forms of potential idolatry, like Orthodox icons. I'm not making a judgement on whether it is idolatry or not; I just think that it might be discussed.
Additionally, making a sweeping claim for a group of people would do well with a citation, even if it seems obvious.
In Seven_Laws_of_Noah#The_Christian_Trinity_and_the_prohibition_against_idolatry I'm uncertain of the causal relationship explicit in the statement that "Christians consider themselves monotheists and as such non-idolators." This section seems to describe well the difficulties of the Trinity, but seems not to touch on more–if I may–obvious forms of potential idolatry, like Orthodox icons. I'm not making a judgement on whether it is idolatry or not; I just think that it might be discussed.
Additionally, making a sweeping claim for a group of people would do well with a citation, even if it seems obvious. -- Msanford ( talk) 19:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Tractate Sanhedrin 56a/b, quoting Tosefta Sanhedrin 9:4. Never Gemara can quote Tosefta. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.223.61.58 ( talk) 02:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
To actually take a look at Bava Kamma 38a (also spelled as Baba Kamma). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.223.61.58 ( talk) 02:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of continuing disagreement and editing about what should go in this section and the current version has 32. For consistency sake we should probably at least get the number right. There's not much online content that I can find (I was disturbed to find a link to my own talk page on the 4th page of google results). but the best online sources I can find at the moment are:
Although I cant vouch for either pages accuracy, they do at least appear to use different wording for the same concepts. I will try to look at the original source at somepoint, but in the meantime if anyone else can find anything better online it would be greatly appreciated. Here is what the better of the sites lists however:
Also, I think a lot of the additions/deletions from this area may be coming from its perception as a general dumping ground rather than referring to specifically to Shmuel ben Hophni Gaon's subdivisions. Id like to resolve this by putting them all under a single subcategory of their own. Black Platypus ( talk) 10:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for finding a good source! This should hopefully clear up any discussion about the list of 30. I am not actually sure how much weight is given to this list as opposed to shorter collections of laws for Noahides. This is of practical relevance: of someone violated a law listed by Shmuel ben Hophni but not in other sources, would a Noahide court still need to take action? JFW | T@lk 05:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
It's a dietary law, it has nothing to do with whether it's okay to harm animals or not, as that is irrelevant to the context. It's a dietary law and nothing more. Seems some ASPCA or PETA fanatic got a hold of this. I'm not saying I advocate cruelty to animals (quite the opposite) but I mean really, it doesn't belong here. I advocate removing the definition altogether. Jersey John ( talk) 12:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
1. one should love God, who is One, with all one's heart 2. one should love one's neighbor as oneself
Jesus Christ is summarizing the ten commandments. The first three - Worship only God, do not worship idols, keep holy the sabbath, is found in the 1. Love your God.
The next seven - honor your parents, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not covet another man's possesions and so on refer to loving one's neighbor. Of course Christianity is a law based religion. Gabr- el 22:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
This entire section needs to be removed.
Leaving aside the fact that it is inappropriate to polemecize the views of one religion in an article about a concept belonging to another, this entire section is original research. Furthermore, it cites Rabbi Joseph Telushkin in a way that misrepresents what he wrote. I've corresponded with Rabbi Telushkin about this, and he was appalled at the fact that his statement would be taken out of context in this way.
I felt it would be appropriate to discuss this on the talk page first, but it's pretty clear that the section has to go. - LisaLiel ( talk) 11:56, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I threw a couple of things in there to show how far back these concepts could go. I put it right after a note someone else left in the article that we needed more on the history and origins of the concept -- but that may not be the best spot. I don't like having two full quotes for Acts 15, because it gives it too much space. But I put them both in there so someone else can pick and choose which one to prune. If there are other ancient parallels I'll try to find them. Tim ( talk) 14:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Are the seven laws received or given by Enoch ? Is there any relationship between the Noachide laws and the so-called teachings of Enoch ? 69.157.233.40 ( talk)
Looking back on the edit history the listed enumerations seem to be a continuing bone of contention, at the moment including the confusing proscription: "God saw the lawlessness, so He flooded the earth. (Genesis 6:11-13)." The current list is based on one I dredged up over a year ago from http://www.noachide.org.uk/html/30_noahide_laws.html that lists 30 according to Rabbi Shmuel ben Hofni. I think the current format makes it somewhat ambiguous whether the list is simply a catchall or exclusive to Shmuel ben Hofni (in which case there should probably actually be 30, as opposed to 29). Personally, Im not sure we should give preference to Shmuel ben Hofni, and think the article would be best served by doing away with the list all together, instead simply disusing notable features of Rabbinical interpretation (as is the case now anyway). If there is objection to deleting the list as an item please let me know what you think the list should, in fact, refer to so that a header of some type can be put up. Black Platypus ( talk) 11:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
One user put in a text saying that the institute of the Noah laws says that a relationship between a jew and a gentile is part of the 'sexual immorality' and another user removed it and said it is not in the source. I read the source and it IS there. So I put it back in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.107.225 ( talk) 10:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Traditionally, Judaism regards the determination of the details of the Noahide Law as something to be left to Jewish rabbis. This, in addition to the teaching of the Jewish law that punishment for violating one of the seven Noahide Laws includes a theoretical death penalty (Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin 57a), is a factor in modern opposition to the notion of a Noahide legal system. Jewish scholars respond by noting that Jews today no longer carry out the death penalty, even within the Jewish community. Jewish law, in contemporary practice, sees the death penalty as an indicator of the seriousness of an offense; violators are not actually put to death.
This quote is, for starters, pure OR. The strictures on capital punishment in Jewish law largely do not apply to Gentiles, I know Rabbi Weinberg of Ner Yisroel felt that Gentiles were violating the noachide law if they did not vote to uphold it. I bring this piece of my own OR just an example of why this is POV. I will tell you that I recieved a halachic ruling that I could apply the death penalty to a Jew or Gentile as a member of a jury. Mzk1 ( talk) 09:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
according to the definition of this word in the link, it seems a little misleading, because only homosexual sodomy between males is prohibited, so I insist that homosexual intercourse between males is better -- Ha-y Gavra ( talk) 11:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Can we just leave this until someone's found a reliable source? Note www.noahide.org as some random website doesn't meet WP:RS, so this is pretty much edit warring over opinions. On another note, it certainly doesn't need mediation yet. Perhaps just rving to what ever it was before this flared up again would be appropriate, until someone finds an RS.-- Misarxist 13:47, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. dubious citation needed
The Genesis text says only "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it." This seems to means the same as Leviticus 7:26 "You are not to eat any blood", Deuteronomy 12:23 "Only be sure not to eat the blood", Deuteronomy 12:16 "Only you shall not eat the blood; you are to pour it out on the ground like water." etc., namely a prohibition to consume blood (cf. kosher methods of slaughter and meat preparation). http://bible.cc/genesis/9-4.htm.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 22:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
They're the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.104.188.76 ( talk) 04:40, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
One should start with the Talmud, the source for all of this. There should be a statement in the header that these laws are not exclusive, as this is explicitly stated there. Similarly, the concept of 30 laws (the Encyclopedia Tulmidit gives a number of lists) is right out of the Talmud, albeit in Agaddah. The whole section on subdivision is confusing, because it makes it sound like these are later opinions. Also, the header is wrong; there are clearly laws outside the seven. Mzk1 ( talk) 22:37, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
What laws? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.104.188.76 ( talk) 04:28, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I undid the specification of a specific sexual act for homosexuality. Another editor undid that, poining out that "kurvah" appears only to apply to Jews. (I do not believe that is clear, either, in the absence of good sources.) My point was that if you stated it there, you should also state it for all other sexual acts, such as incest and adultery, although the definition of shelo k'darka is not clear. (That is, as to whether "sodomy" is included in it.) And this gets into a grey area. Would Judaism condone, say, oral sex between a man and his mother? There should be no difference. I think it should be left general, since there are no clear sources (are there?). At any rate, I did not undo, to avoid edit-warring. Mzk1 ( talk) 22:20, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Here is another point I did not mention above - in the "thirty commandments" passage in the Talmud, one of the three commandments not broken by the pagans of the time is that they do not practice "gay marriage" (or possibly, not write a pre-nuptual), more specifically, "they do not write a Ketubah for a male". Now the paasage is not necessarily halachic and it may be that the term "commandments" there is not meant literally - but it is indicative that this claim is not so extraordinary. My point is that if we are unclear, we should fudge, otherwise we are making an unsupported claim to the contrary. Mzk1 ( talk) 08:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I've found a source that does claim that the secondary sexual prohbitions (kirvah, chibuk v'nishuk (hugging and kissing) popularly referred to as negiah) do apply to B'nei Noach. This is Aaron Lichtenstein (the academic, not the Seminary head); this is his opinion, based on the Minchat Chinuch's extension of the Sefer haChinuch, quoted from positive commandment 188. I have not checked the Minchat Chinuch itself. Mzk1 ( talk) 21:10, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I have moved Dead Sea Scrolls and Acts 15 up between Hebrew Bible and Talmud. In ictu oculi ( talk) 13:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move Mike Cline ( talk) 12:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Seven Laws of Noah →
Seven laws of Noah –
WP does not generally upcase laws, theorems, or rules; so the seven laws of Noah mid-sentence. Per WP:CAPS ("Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization") and WP:TITLE, this is a generic, common term, not a propriety or commercial term, so the article title should be downcased. In addition, WP:MOS says that a compound item should not be upper-cased just because it is abbreviated with caps. Lowercase will match the formatting of related article titles. Tony (talk) 12:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
JdWolff, No problem, perhaps the article could state clearly both references where the term first occurs and give dates for both of them? In ictu oculi ( talk) 06:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I'm not qualified to edit the article, but I think one thing missing, that is relevant would be something about the beliefs regarding reconciliation for those that disobey the seven laws of Noah (i.e. beliefs regarding "forgiveness" (can a person supposedly LOSE their "place in the world to come" and/or gain back a "place in the world to come"? Might also be relevant to better define what "place in the world to come" means (and equally important, what it means to NOT have a place in the world to come!)
Also there is brief mention in the article about prosthelization - if it is generally accepted by Jews that following Noah's seven laws is the key for Gentiles to gain a place in the world to come why don't they generally share this information with Gentiles (I don't know anyone that has even ever heard of noah's seven laws, I just happened to stumble across it)? This info seems pretty relevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.76.72 ( talk) 15:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Someone insisted on categorising this with Category:Jewish Christian topics. I dispute this. The Noahide Laws have no role in Christianity, and post-hoc apologetics will not change this. Christianity has never attempted to satisfy the Noahide Laws, and there is a strong indication from some Jewish sources that Christianity can't actually conform to the Noahide Laws. JFW | T@lk 23:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
According to organised Christianity rejection of the Nicene Creed is a departure from Christianity. But whatever, this is not a "Jewish Christian topic". At the so-called interface between Christiany and Judaism the Noahide Laws have never featured. JFW | T@lk 22:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
In addition, Ben, you are correct in the understanding that most calling themselves Christian do view the acknowledgement of the trinitarian nature of the One Most High, as required for orthodox Christianity; this is not an undeniably written doctrine in the scriptures understood as either the original Hebrew, or even the Christian New Testament. There are a few Christian sects that view this teaching as human speculation, and possibly Pagan in origination. The article includes discussion the idolatrous nature of trinitarian belief. We are in basic agreement on the subject, I believe; our differences might be on the description of Christianity as only those groups that accept trinitarianism as orthodox, or acceptable.-- Kevin 03:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The material on Christianity vs the Noahide Laws was sprinkled through the article. I have now moved everything to the relevant section, and I suggest all Christianity-related content remains there. It's odd that while this is a Jewish subject, about half the article is still about whether it is to be accepted by Christians, discriminatory of Christians, a part of Christian history, etc etc. Perhaps some condensation and rationalisation, with the necessary source support (which is now lacking) will make the article more lean & mean. JFW | T@lk 15:55, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
There has not been friction between the groups for 2000 years because of the Noahide Laws. The friction is because most Jews would not convert to Christianity, and were subsequently accused of deicide. I'm quite unhappy with your new fork Noachian Law, which I've put of AFD for obvious reasons. This is one article on the concept of the expectations of Jewish law from Gentiles. Nothing more and nothing less. Please just work on the "christianity" section on this page; removing all irrelevant content and sourcing the remainder will do more good than creating a new article to flesh out every single point. JFW | T@lk 22:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I will have no further discussion if you feel the need to rant about "Jewish pomposity", "arrogance", "self-righteousness" etc. You'd better change your tone, and fast. Obviously you have unconventional views. If you expect to be taken seriously you'd better start providing some useful outside evidence on the role of Noahide Laws in Primitive Apostolic Christianity. JFW | T@lk 04:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
This article needs to be split into "Noahide Laws in Judaism" and "Noahide Laws in Christianity" because of dictatorial statements like this: "I think splitting the article is the worst thing one can do. There are no "Christian" Noahide Laws. I think all the relevant information can easily be contained in this article. In fact, I think the Christian relevance is much overstated. I'd say >95% of all Christians would not have the slightest idea what the Noahide Laws are, as they are a distinctly Jewish phenomenon. There will be no split and no disambiguation page." The Jewish material should go to "Noahide Laws in Judaism" and the Christian material, which a certain dictator claims does not exist, should go to "Noahide Laws in Christianity". There is plenty of precedent for this for obvious reasons: Old Testament versus Jewish Bible, Sabbath versus Shabbat, Passover (Christian holiday) versus Passover, Christ versus Messiah, Hell versus Gehenna, etc. Obviously, both Judaism and Christianity are based on the same source material, but draw different conclusions, for this reason articles should be split, neither side will ever agree that the other might be correct or sometimes that another side even exists. But of course it does, and neutrality dictates seperate articles. 63.201.24.99 ( talk · contribs)
"Noachian law" appears to simply be a variant of "Noahide Law", and is used to describe the Noahide laws. What encyclopedic sources are you using for your descriptions of the Christian view of them? Because I haven't been able to find any. Jayjg (talk) 21:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
And I will repeat my question: where is the term "Noahide". If these laws are not identical with the 7 laws from the Talmud, and nobody calls them "Noahide Laws" (including your source above), why use this article as your vehicle? JFW | T@lk 15:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Those are some peri-Noahide laws (Melchizedek lived after Noah, and Job's epoch is not certain). But the Noahide laws without a modifier refers to the seven laws from Talmud Sanhedrin. How about you move this content to Apostolic Constitutions. It seems we have found a home for it after all. JFW | T@lk 20:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
No, the correct Hebrew term is Sheva Mitzvot Bnay Noach, "The Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noah". There is no Christian term for it; Christians don't do the Sheva Mitzvot, at least they hadn't done so until Jewish writers brought them into the public discourse in the 20th century.
Your reply aimed at me personally shows in all its colours how poorly you have read the above discussion. There are no Christian Noahide Laws! There are some pre-Abrahamititic laws that the Primitive Apostolic Christianity people express a great deal of interest in, such as the High Sabbaths, but you are morbidly mistaken that this subject should go "back into its source of the Talmud" (whatever you mean by that). The majority of the article is about this phenomenon in Jewish law and its adherents of the newly developing Noahide movement. This is not a Jewish-Christian topic, and your irony is completely misplaced. JFW | T@lk 23:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and for the record, Kevin, one of the protagonists of the Jewish-Christian theory, has done the sensible thing and moved the relevant content to Primitive Apostolic Christianity. I'm pleased we're finally getting somewhere. JFW | T@lk 23:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Simply speaking, the "Noahide Laws" are a Jewish concept, and are only testified to in Jewish sources. Some writers have argued that they overlap the "Apostolic laws", that POV is an entirely modern view. Jayjg (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
So what? JFW | T@lk 00:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I suppose it's always possible that they do, but what does that have to do with the Noahide laws? Jayjg (talk) 00:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear 209.78.18.73, there are no Christian Noahide Laws. There are some laws mentioned in Acts 15, which seem to be Jewish laws meant for non-Jews, but they are not called Noahide laws, the non-Jews in question are not designated "Noahides", and so on. You can do with your Platonic logic anything you like, but not mangle terminology until it suits your point of view. The "neutral historical perspective" does not seem to be in agreement with you. JFW | T@lk 13:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I've made no such claim; rather, I'm pointing out that there are no pre-20th century sources which refer to "Noahide laws". All you need to do to disprove that is to cite reputable sources which provide references to "Christian Noahide Laws". Jayjg (talk) 00:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Kevin: show me one serious source that supports your assertions. Otherwise please do not post on this page. Jayjg and myself have requested numerous times that you support your ideas with evidence. All you have just done in your comment today is rehash the same comments you've been making since the beginning of this discussion, and I think we'd be going round in circles if I were to explain to you again the relevance of the original research policy here. JFW | T@lk 04:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Kevin, why has it taken you more than a week to come up with some basic sources? Moseley wrote the cited material in 1993, which is several decades after Lubavitch started popularising the Noahide Laws. The Flusser book he quotes is from 1988, and the Lichtenstein book is actually a Jewish source - it does not discuss this phenomenon in Christianity. So we have a small number of authors borrowing the Jewish term to refer to the Apostolic Constitutions. So what has happened is that Jewish terminology was applied to these laws after they gained popularity in the scientific and popular press. I find this a fairly poor reason to start a parallel page, as this phenomenon did not develop independently but in response to the Jewish "Seven Commandments". In what way do you disagree with my conclusions? Doesn't it make much more sense to say that "Christian writers in the 20th century found similarity between the Noahide Laws and the Apostolic Constitutions" with a reference to Moseley? I think this is the best way forward. JFW | T@lk 18:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
As all these authors are developing their terminology borrowing from the Jewish concept I am not inclined to change my mind here. If you can prove to me that any aspect of Christian law was called Noahide, Noachian or anything similar by notable Christian writers prior it the popularisation of the concept by Jewish writers will I be anywhere close to conceding. Otherwise, you are invited to change the Christian adoption paragraph according to our discussion above. JFW | T@lk 20:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Kevhorn ( talk · contribs) created another fork to confuse the issues. Noachian Covenant now redirects here. The links can be removed. Please provide evidence that any writer uses the term "Noachian Covenant" in any context. This is getting tiresome. JFW | T@lk 03:02, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
On the basis of the limited evidence that Kevin has given us I have now removed most speculative material from the section in question. Most of it was speculative, unsourced and hence likely to be original research. I will repeat my assertion that until the 20th century few Christians cared for the Jewish concept of "Noahide Laws", and all else is historical revisionism of doubtful significance. JFW | T@lk 03:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The list of external links includes what looks like some vanispamcruft. I am pruning the list per my understanding of WP:EL:
Yahoo groups, tripod pages, "I think that too" pages and so on are not good, authoritative sources. The Jewish Encyclopaedia is, and the Institute of Noahide Law apperars to be as well (although anyone can call themselves an Institute, so I might be misjudging that) - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/ [C] AfD? 11:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Is there more information about what rabbis say about Islam being a Noahide religion? Thank you. RedCrescent 04:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
There are a lot of rules there, do you want me to go through each one? Since you are deleting it, you have the burden to prove that it violates those rules. Why don't you tell me what provision there has been violated. Then we can talk. In the meantime would some neutral wikipedia people please weigh in so we can reach a consensus.
"the ... principles ... upon which our great Nation was founded ... known as the Seven Noahide Laws ... without these ... civilization stands in serious peril of ... chaos ... Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991 ... in tribute to this great spiritual leader ... his ninetieth year will ... turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws" Sure do seem to be a bunch of "..."s in this quote. "the...principles...upon which our great Nation was founded...known as the Seven Noahide Laws..." Is this accurate and contextual? -- Yodamace1 20:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
In modern Hebrew, the term 'gilui arayot' refers to incest alone. In Biblical Hebrew, besides incest, it also referred to a woman having sex with a man who is not her husband, regardless of relation. However, none of these definitions imply a generic rule of sexual morality. Where did the broadening of the definition to include other supposed-sexually immoral acts come from? If this isn't a mistake, it needs to be sourced. -- Telecart 21:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein who wrote a book about Noahide Laws is NOT the same Rabbi Dr. Aaron Lichtenstein, the Rosh yeshiva of Yeshivat Har Etzion. I think he might be a first cousin. Jon513 21:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The ip address 203.214.133.79 believes that the section Christianity "need[s] to be rewritten with more accurecy". Jon513 17:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
The article belongs in the Judaism section. It has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is idolatry according to the Noachide Laws. Keep this article under Judaism. This article shouldn't have anything to do with Jewish-Christian "dialogue."
The key word here is JEWISH-Christian. You are eliminating the Jewish bit and keeping the Christian part
The article belongs in the "Judaism" section. It has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is idolatry according to the Noachide Laws. Keep this article under Judaism. This article shouldn't have anything to do with Jewish-Christian "dialogue." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.243.60.3 ( talk) 20:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The external links on this page has gotten out of hand. Looking at the links, very few of them met the criteria of Wikipedia:External links and should be removed. I have already tried to removed many of these sites in the past and they seem to just be constantly put back in. I don't have any inclination in edit waring with such people. Jon513 19:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I find the layout of this article to be too inclusive of different noahide issues. Please note, I agree that the content is good, I am acting in good faith.
The main point is that the Seven Laws of Noah will only be about the laws, the origin and their subdividions. All else will have its own article. Chavatshimshon 06:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Chavatshimshon, sorry I'm late to the party. I guess you noticed my discussion of the Noahide Laws in the Clementine literature, which are believed to be of Jewish-Christian origin. How can I help with the cleanup? Ovadyah 02:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
There is plenty of WP:RS, see Council of Jerusalem. Also, "Noahide Law" is an English phrase, not a Jewish phrase. 75.14.223.198 19:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Folks, I was asked to come here to help, not pour more gas on the fire, so please assume I am acting in good faith. A lot of sharp disagreements are taking place on this talk page. Imho, some disagreement is healthy, and it will make for a better article. Don't let it degrade into incivility. (See the Nazarene archives for how bad it can be.)
First of all, our job as editors is to report the facts as we find them in credible sources. Stating that the Noahide Laws are Jewish halakah, and therefore the mainstream opinion, is original research. Citing a review article or scholarly publication that says so is reporting the evidence. The Talmud is an appropriate source for listing the Noahide Laws. An editor's interpretation of what the Noahide Laws mean based on the Talmud is religious commentary, and therefore, original research. I would say the same for any commentary about Acts 15 or the Clementines. Similarly, stating that Acts 15 and the Clementines are a separate subject is an opinion. Fine for the talk page, not fine for the article. A published source that reaches that conclusion is fine for the article. An opposing view from a published source that says they all derive from the same source document is also fine, and including that view would make for an even better article. Follow the evidence. Ovadyah 20:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I am going to proceed with the cleanup by creating an archive on the talk page for Noahide Groups and move the Recent Developments and Other Religions as Noahide sections into it, as I stated previously. Nothing will be lost. We need to narrow the scope of the article and focus on the essentials. Ovadyah 01:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I would not waste time right now on the Subdividing the Seven Laws section. This all needs to be rewritten in summary style. Let's work on the lead section and the Intro/Backgound and Seven Laws sections first. Ovadyah 01:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I created an External Links section in the archive. Someone, please move most of these links to the archive, and only keep the links that are essential for the Noahide Laws. Ovadyah 01:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm really not quite sure why a large amount of fairly high-quality content has been removed on 12 Dec. [2] Specifically, the move for a Sanhedrin and the role of other religions were covered in a fairly even-handed manner. There is no indication that sufficient consensus was achieved before this removal. I have reintroduced said material. JFW | T@lk 23:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Consensus? Please read WP:CON before labelling my actions as unilateral. Noahide Groups is not an article and I dispute the need for its creation. I think this article is a good container article for all things Noahide, and the title is quite good (as without Noahide Laws there is no suitable definition for Noahide). JFW | T@lk 16:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I added requests for citations in the lead section. Better to add them as you introduce new material than scramble at the end to find all the sources. Right now, the article has a mix of reference tags and inline citations. It's better style to go all one way or the other. Personally, I think ref tags are less intrusive to the flow of the article. Ovadyah 15:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
A quick look at the intro suggests serious POV and reliability problems. One comparitively minor problem is representing certain Orthodox beliefs as being the beliefs of all of Judaism. A much more serious problem is representing the B'nei Noah, a tiny group which is only borderline notable, as being something substantial. For example, I deleted the sentence "Adherents are often called B'nei Noah (Children of Noah) or Noahides and may often congregate in Jewish synagogues". While I agree the B'nei Noah are (barely) notable enough to get an article, the reality is almost nobody has heard of them, and they're almost never found congregating tin Jewish synagogues -- repeated use of the word "often" gives a tiny group an appearence of common-ness that it just doesnt' have. The article seems to have a number of problems of this sort. Article needs rewriting to focus on its topic -- the 7 Laws of Noah as articulated in Orthodox Judaism -- with a tiny mention at the end that there is a small group of people interested in doing this. It also needs to conform to WP:NPOV and WP:OR in places. Best, -- Shirahadasha 17:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
In the Clementine Homilies chp. 7.4 are part of the Proclamations of Peter that sound much like the Noahide Laws:
"And the things which are well-pleasing to God are these:
and the rest in one word,-- as the God-fearing Jews have heard, do you also hear, and be of one mind in many bodies; let each man be minded to do to his neighbour those good things he wishes for himself.
"And you may all find out what is good, by holding some such conversation as the following with yourselves:
The Homilies date from the 3rd or 4th century. Ovadyah 04:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I came across an article that argues, persuasively imho, that Acts 15 and the Noahide Laws do not share a common source. [3] It also discusses an alternative theory that the requirements of Acts 15 were derived from Leviticus 17-18. Both theories have their problems, and the article debunks them in detail. The article concludes that all four of the prohibitions involve things associated with pagan cults. Almost lost in the footnotes is the observation that the Western text of Acts 15 has only three prohibitions, which agree with Rabbinic traditions about the three primary sins of the Gentiles - idolatry, shedding of blood, and immorality. Interesting reading. :) Ovadyah 04:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
As it is right now there are only two sentences mentioning Noahides. They are from "advertisements".
I have reinserted the Six Laws of Adam link. They are mentioned in primary sources such as the Talmud, and Yad Hachasaka of the Rambam. Please discuss. frummer 07:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
The article says:
Could whoever posted this quote the exact source--not just the book's name but the author, date published, and page no. of this quote. If this info. is not provided, I think this phrase ought to be removed. Yehoishophot Oliver 16:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Whoever wrote that this contradicts the Rambam is completely right. You can find what Rambam wrote about non-Jews who keep the Noahide laws being allowed to keep Jewish commandments as well in Hilkhoth Melakhim u'Milhhemothehem 10:11-13 [9-10 in inaccurate texts] This book of halakha is part of Sefer Shoftim in the Mishneh Torah of the Rambam. I pointed out this very thing on my website: http://sagavyah.tripod.com/id68.html
It is true that the non-Jew remains prohibited from FULLY keep the Torah as a Jew, but the limitation itself is very limited. I know that either the Shulhhan Arukh, or some other popular (and latter) work of halakha adds to the prohibition that they can not wear tefillin. A Jew is prohibited to help idolators appear as Jews, such as to wear tzitzit. A non-Jew who keeps the Noahide laws is not considered an idolator in Jewish law. There are MANY distinctions between the two types of non-Jews.
Yosef Omedyashar 10:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
The absurd claim is made here that Maimonides holds that "Islam is a Noahide religion." This is nonsense, if it means to imply that observance of Islam is permitted for non-Jews. It's not as it violates his clear prohibition of inventing a new religion:
All that Maimonides says is that non-Jews do not technically violate the prohibition of idolatry be following Islam. But they do violate the above prohinition and therefore it is simply incorrect to imply otherwise. I am unaware of any statement of the Ran (Rabeinu Nisim) on this matter, but if whoever posted it would like to enlighten me, I'd appreciate it. In the meantime I've removed it because the whole concept is absurd, aside from the fact that it's unsourced. Yehoishophot Oliver 18:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Are you for real? Maimonides specifically says that inventing religious practices is forbidden for gentiles, and you expect the words "according to Maimonides, Islam is a Noahide religion" when Islam is clearly an invented religious practice from the perspective of Orthodox Judaism to be left unedited?! That's aside from the fact that no source was adduced anyway for the preposterous claim that "Islam is a Noahide religion".
As for the answer to Reb Ovadya the Ger, all it says there is that Islam is not idolatry for non-Jews! Idolatry is only ONE of the Noahide laws. It does not therefore follow that Islam is acceptable for non-Jews, when Maimonides there simply doesn't address the acceptability of Islam vis a vis the other Noahide laws. Yehoishophot Oliver 12:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have edited this section. The former version implied that if Christianity is not considered idolatrous as it is shituf and that is not forbidden for non-Jews, this necessarily implies that Christianity is acceptable for non-Jews. This is simply false. There are other aspects of Christianity that can, and, many argue, do constitute violation of the Noahide laws. In any case, the fact that it is proven that there is a controversy over the specific prohibition of idolatry in no way proves the attitude of Judaism to Christianity in terms of other aspects of the Noahide Code. This distortion (intended or not) is identical to that of the section on Islam whose editing I have justified above. Yehoishophot Oliver 10:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
This whole section needs sources, and could arguably be blanked until it has them. Basejumper 13:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I just took out the unsourced part, it should be added if there is a source. TO put in an article that some Jewish opinions regard Christians as idol worshipers definitely needs sourced quite strongly. Basejumper 13:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for showing me these, but they seem to indicate it is idolatry for Jews, but permissbale for non-Jews. ALso, the first one indicates that according to the Satmar Rav Zionism is idol worship. I hope you are not suggesting that we add that Zionism is a violation of the 7 Noahide laws. Basejumper 17:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I by no means claim to be a scholar in Noahide Laws or biblical studies. Looking through the article though, I do not feel that there is a clear distinction between the things that are in the Jewish Bible (the Tanach) and the Talmud. It seems like a lot of the claims do not come from the Tanach (or at least, I can't find them). Looking at Genesis 9:4-6, for example, which is the first source, I can only find three of the seven laws explicitly stated. Like I said, I'm not very familiar with all this, but it seems to me like it should at the very least clarified by someone who knows what they are doing. As some of the earlier comments also said, there are also a lot of claims about what is "according to Judiasm" which do not apply to all practiced and accepted forms of Judaism. I think perhaps this is a similar thing that needs to be clarified. If the Tanach does in fact make explicate statement to the Noahide Laws (all seven that is), perhaps those sections should be added to the refrences. Like I said, I'm not really very qualified to be changing or clarifying any of this, but as I do stand, I am confused. Thanks! Crito2161 02:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
This appears twice, once in the introduction and once under background, stating that gentiles are forbidden from carrying out certain mitzvot (commandments). In the introduction, the reference is to Talmud Baveli and is vague enough that I couldn't follow it. In the second case, it's to a Jewish Encyclopedia entry that has a lot more gray than the absolute proscription implied. I feel these statements should either be backed up more clearly or, better yet, removed, as they are unnecessarily inflammatory. -- GUSwim 04:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to chime in on the discussion above, but I do have an observation that may be somewhat on point to the general subject. When the article says "It is actually forbidden by the Talmud for non-Jews on whom the Noahide Laws are still binding, to elevate their observance to the Torah's mitzvot as the Jews do", I don't understand it. I have a grasp of all the words, but the meaning of the sentence eludes me -- and the citation isn't helpful to me. I'm not qualified to edit or to say what is relevant to this topic or not, but I believe that whatever is included should be presented in a clear manner. Sweet byrd ( talk) 18:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
75.21.116.175 ( talk) 05:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I wonder if it would be useful for readers if this was mentioned. A brief quotation: In the Krause MS, under the head of "the Laws or Obligations laid before his brother Masons by Prince Edwin," we find the following article .... 'The first obligation is that you shall sincerely honor God and obey the laws of the Noachites....'" http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/mackeyfr.html It would require an expert in the field, if admitted. 142.68.44.156 00:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
There is a good discussion of this point http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/anti-masonry08.html (see Are freemasons really Noahides?) and a discussion of the point from a rabbinic point of view at the end of the page http://en.wikinoah.org/index.php/Freemasonry_and_Noahide_Law -- Ibn nuh 07:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
"The Noahide Laws were predated by six laws given to Adam in the Garden of Eden."
Can anyone name these six laws ?
Siyac 15:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd find it helpful if someone could elaborate on what it means to not be Jewish, but to recognize God and acknowledge him as the source of the seven laws. I understand that the Jews are not just people who believe in their god, but ones who have a special relationship with him. But does that mean that non-Jews are still expected to worship the same god as the Jews (in the sense of believing that the Jews are correct in their theology and cosmology), or would any monotheistic religion qualify as long as it upheld these laws and saw its god as their originator? Inhumandecency 02:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
[He is considered a Pious Gentile] only when he accepts them [the Noahide laws] and fulfills them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us [the Jewish people] via Moses, our teacher, that even previously [i.e., before the Giving of the Torah at Sinai], Noah’s descendants were commanded to fulfill them. However, if he fulfils them out of intellectual conviction, he is not a resident alien, nor of the Pious among the Gentiles, nor of their wise men. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, 8:11)
75.21.116.175 ( talk) 05:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
in hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נוח.
seven=שבע
mitsvot/laws=מצוות
sons (of)=בני
noah=נוח
please change it, it{s not the mitsvot of noah himself!!
I agree with your translation, but we have no obligation to name it the same way as the Hebrew version. The Bible narratives shows the laws being given to Noah, so the current name is not inappropriate. The Hebrew name reflects the idea that the laws were intended for his descendants to keep as well... but this name does not appear in the Bible. -- Dweller ( talk) 17:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Here I give you what the bible said, the original one!!!
וַיְבָרֶךְ אֱלֹהִים, אֶת נֹחַ וְאֶת בָּנָיו; וַיֹּאמֶר לָהֶם פְּרוּ וּרְבוּ, וּמִלְאוּ אֶת הָאָרֶץ. וּמוֹרַאֲכֶם וְחִתְּכֶם, יִהְיֶה, עַל כָּל חַיַּת הָאָרֶץ, וְעַל כָּל עוֹף הַשָּׁמָיִם; בְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר תִּרְמֹשׂ הָאֲדָמָה וּבְכָל דְּגֵי הַיָּם, בְּיֶדְכֶם נִתָּנוּ. כָּל-רֶמֶשׂ אֲשֶׁר הוּא חַי, לָכֶם יִהְיֶה לְאָכְלָה: כְּיֶרֶק עֵשֶׂב, נָתַתִּי לָכֶם אֶת כֹּל. אַךְ בָּשָׂר, בְּנַפְשׁוֹ דָמוֹ לֹא תֹאכֵלוּ. וְאַךְ אֶת דִּמְכֶם לְנַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם אֶדְרֹשׁ, מִיַּד כָּל חַיָּה אֶדְרְשֶׁנּוּ; וּמִיַּד הָאָדָם, מִיַּד אִישׁ אָחִיו אֶדְרֹשׁ, אֶת נֶפֶשׁ הָאָדָם. שֹׁפֵךְ דַּם הָאָדָם, בָּאָדָם דָּמוֹ יִשָּׁפֵךְ: כִּי בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים, עָשָׂה אֶת הָאָדָם. וְאַתֶּם, פְּרוּ וּרְבוּ; שִׁרְצוּ בָאָרֶץ, וּרְבוּ בָהּ.
and in free translation (the bolded part): "and god blessed Noah and his sons and He told them..." He talked to Noah too, but the 7 orders were to his sons. I don't think god gave Noah the order Prohibition of Idolatry in while Noah was 600 years old! —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
89.0.250.44 (
talk) 20:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
While reading through this article I noticed that some material had either been misplaced or was scattered through the article. I have taken the liberty of doing the following reorganizations. If they are of concern, please feel free to revert:
Egfrank ( talk) 19:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
In Seven_Laws_of_Noah#The_Christian_Trinity_and_the_prohibition_against_idolatry I'm uncertain of the causal relationship explicit in the statement that "Christians consider themselves monotheists and as such non-idolators." This section seems to describe well the difficulties of the Trinity, but seems not to touch on more–if I may–obvious forms of potential idolatry, like Orthodox icons. I'm not making a judgement on whether it is idolatry or not; I just think that it might be discussed.
Additionally, making a sweeping claim for a group of people would do well with a citation, even if it seems obvious.
In Seven_Laws_of_Noah#The_Christian_Trinity_and_the_prohibition_against_idolatry I'm uncertain of the causal relationship explicit in the statement that "Christians consider themselves monotheists and as such non-idolators." This section seems to describe well the difficulties of the Trinity, but seems not to touch on more–if I may–obvious forms of potential idolatry, like Orthodox icons. I'm not making a judgement on whether it is idolatry or not; I just think that it might be discussed.
Additionally, making a sweeping claim for a group of people would do well with a citation, even if it seems obvious. -- Msanford ( talk) 19:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Tractate Sanhedrin 56a/b, quoting Tosefta Sanhedrin 9:4. Never Gemara can quote Tosefta. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.223.61.58 ( talk) 02:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
To actually take a look at Bava Kamma 38a (also spelled as Baba Kamma). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.223.61.58 ( talk) 02:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a lot of continuing disagreement and editing about what should go in this section and the current version has 32. For consistency sake we should probably at least get the number right. There's not much online content that I can find (I was disturbed to find a link to my own talk page on the 4th page of google results). but the best online sources I can find at the moment are:
Although I cant vouch for either pages accuracy, they do at least appear to use different wording for the same concepts. I will try to look at the original source at somepoint, but in the meantime if anyone else can find anything better online it would be greatly appreciated. Here is what the better of the sites lists however:
Also, I think a lot of the additions/deletions from this area may be coming from its perception as a general dumping ground rather than referring to specifically to Shmuel ben Hophni Gaon's subdivisions. Id like to resolve this by putting them all under a single subcategory of their own. Black Platypus ( talk) 10:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for finding a good source! This should hopefully clear up any discussion about the list of 30. I am not actually sure how much weight is given to this list as opposed to shorter collections of laws for Noahides. This is of practical relevance: of someone violated a law listed by Shmuel ben Hophni but not in other sources, would a Noahide court still need to take action? JFW | T@lk 05:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
It's a dietary law, it has nothing to do with whether it's okay to harm animals or not, as that is irrelevant to the context. It's a dietary law and nothing more. Seems some ASPCA or PETA fanatic got a hold of this. I'm not saying I advocate cruelty to animals (quite the opposite) but I mean really, it doesn't belong here. I advocate removing the definition altogether. Jersey John ( talk) 12:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
1. one should love God, who is One, with all one's heart 2. one should love one's neighbor as oneself
Jesus Christ is summarizing the ten commandments. The first three - Worship only God, do not worship idols, keep holy the sabbath, is found in the 1. Love your God.
The next seven - honor your parents, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not covet another man's possesions and so on refer to loving one's neighbor. Of course Christianity is a law based religion. Gabr- el 22:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
This entire section needs to be removed.
Leaving aside the fact that it is inappropriate to polemecize the views of one religion in an article about a concept belonging to another, this entire section is original research. Furthermore, it cites Rabbi Joseph Telushkin in a way that misrepresents what he wrote. I've corresponded with Rabbi Telushkin about this, and he was appalled at the fact that his statement would be taken out of context in this way.
I felt it would be appropriate to discuss this on the talk page first, but it's pretty clear that the section has to go. - LisaLiel ( talk) 11:56, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I threw a couple of things in there to show how far back these concepts could go. I put it right after a note someone else left in the article that we needed more on the history and origins of the concept -- but that may not be the best spot. I don't like having two full quotes for Acts 15, because it gives it too much space. But I put them both in there so someone else can pick and choose which one to prune. If there are other ancient parallels I'll try to find them. Tim ( talk) 14:47, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Are the seven laws received or given by Enoch ? Is there any relationship between the Noachide laws and the so-called teachings of Enoch ? 69.157.233.40 ( talk)
Looking back on the edit history the listed enumerations seem to be a continuing bone of contention, at the moment including the confusing proscription: "God saw the lawlessness, so He flooded the earth. (Genesis 6:11-13)." The current list is based on one I dredged up over a year ago from http://www.noachide.org.uk/html/30_noahide_laws.html that lists 30 according to Rabbi Shmuel ben Hofni. I think the current format makes it somewhat ambiguous whether the list is simply a catchall or exclusive to Shmuel ben Hofni (in which case there should probably actually be 30, as opposed to 29). Personally, Im not sure we should give preference to Shmuel ben Hofni, and think the article would be best served by doing away with the list all together, instead simply disusing notable features of Rabbinical interpretation (as is the case now anyway). If there is objection to deleting the list as an item please let me know what you think the list should, in fact, refer to so that a header of some type can be put up. Black Platypus ( talk) 11:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
One user put in a text saying that the institute of the Noah laws says that a relationship between a jew and a gentile is part of the 'sexual immorality' and another user removed it and said it is not in the source. I read the source and it IS there. So I put it back in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.107.225 ( talk) 10:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Traditionally, Judaism regards the determination of the details of the Noahide Law as something to be left to Jewish rabbis. This, in addition to the teaching of the Jewish law that punishment for violating one of the seven Noahide Laws includes a theoretical death penalty (Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin 57a), is a factor in modern opposition to the notion of a Noahide legal system. Jewish scholars respond by noting that Jews today no longer carry out the death penalty, even within the Jewish community. Jewish law, in contemporary practice, sees the death penalty as an indicator of the seriousness of an offense; violators are not actually put to death.
This quote is, for starters, pure OR. The strictures on capital punishment in Jewish law largely do not apply to Gentiles, I know Rabbi Weinberg of Ner Yisroel felt that Gentiles were violating the noachide law if they did not vote to uphold it. I bring this piece of my own OR just an example of why this is POV. I will tell you that I recieved a halachic ruling that I could apply the death penalty to a Jew or Gentile as a member of a jury. Mzk1 ( talk) 09:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
according to the definition of this word in the link, it seems a little misleading, because only homosexual sodomy between males is prohibited, so I insist that homosexual intercourse between males is better -- Ha-y Gavra ( talk) 11:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Can we just leave this until someone's found a reliable source? Note www.noahide.org as some random website doesn't meet WP:RS, so this is pretty much edit warring over opinions. On another note, it certainly doesn't need mediation yet. Perhaps just rving to what ever it was before this flared up again would be appropriate, until someone finds an RS.-- Misarxist 13:47, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. dubious citation needed
The Genesis text says only "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it." This seems to means the same as Leviticus 7:26 "You are not to eat any blood", Deuteronomy 12:23 "Only be sure not to eat the blood", Deuteronomy 12:16 "Only you shall not eat the blood; you are to pour it out on the ground like water." etc., namely a prohibition to consume blood (cf. kosher methods of slaughter and meat preparation). http://bible.cc/genesis/9-4.htm.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 22:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
They're the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.104.188.76 ( talk) 04:40, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
One should start with the Talmud, the source for all of this. There should be a statement in the header that these laws are not exclusive, as this is explicitly stated there. Similarly, the concept of 30 laws (the Encyclopedia Tulmidit gives a number of lists) is right out of the Talmud, albeit in Agaddah. The whole section on subdivision is confusing, because it makes it sound like these are later opinions. Also, the header is wrong; there are clearly laws outside the seven. Mzk1 ( talk) 22:37, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
What laws? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.104.188.76 ( talk) 04:28, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I undid the specification of a specific sexual act for homosexuality. Another editor undid that, poining out that "kurvah" appears only to apply to Jews. (I do not believe that is clear, either, in the absence of good sources.) My point was that if you stated it there, you should also state it for all other sexual acts, such as incest and adultery, although the definition of shelo k'darka is not clear. (That is, as to whether "sodomy" is included in it.) And this gets into a grey area. Would Judaism condone, say, oral sex between a man and his mother? There should be no difference. I think it should be left general, since there are no clear sources (are there?). At any rate, I did not undo, to avoid edit-warring. Mzk1 ( talk) 22:20, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Here is another point I did not mention above - in the "thirty commandments" passage in the Talmud, one of the three commandments not broken by the pagans of the time is that they do not practice "gay marriage" (or possibly, not write a pre-nuptual), more specifically, "they do not write a Ketubah for a male". Now the paasage is not necessarily halachic and it may be that the term "commandments" there is not meant literally - but it is indicative that this claim is not so extraordinary. My point is that if we are unclear, we should fudge, otherwise we are making an unsupported claim to the contrary. Mzk1 ( talk) 08:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I've found a source that does claim that the secondary sexual prohbitions (kirvah, chibuk v'nishuk (hugging and kissing) popularly referred to as negiah) do apply to B'nei Noach. This is Aaron Lichtenstein (the academic, not the Seminary head); this is his opinion, based on the Minchat Chinuch's extension of the Sefer haChinuch, quoted from positive commandment 188. I have not checked the Minchat Chinuch itself. Mzk1 ( talk) 21:10, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I have moved Dead Sea Scrolls and Acts 15 up between Hebrew Bible and Talmud. In ictu oculi ( talk) 13:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move Mike Cline ( talk) 12:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Seven Laws of Noah →
Seven laws of Noah –
WP does not generally upcase laws, theorems, or rules; so the seven laws of Noah mid-sentence. Per WP:CAPS ("Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization") and WP:TITLE, this is a generic, common term, not a propriety or commercial term, so the article title should be downcased. In addition, WP:MOS says that a compound item should not be upper-cased just because it is abbreviated with caps. Lowercase will match the formatting of related article titles. Tony (talk) 12:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
JdWolff, No problem, perhaps the article could state clearly both references where the term first occurs and give dates for both of them? In ictu oculi ( talk) 06:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)