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Hasn't been posted that he acquired two ammo clips from Ebay. The handle was Blazers5505 on ebay.com and the store was "Oneclickshooting." Beyond me if this is even worth mentioning or if there's a relavence to anything else. Just pointing it out. Neutralitybias 03:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually the fleabay story has been posted, at least twice. Most recently, it was said that this story appeared on Fox "News".
I'd leave to the police and criminologists the matter of "its relevance to anything else". But then perhaps I'm unusual in not understanding how going nuts and offing people renders the killer worthy of detailed examination other than by the police and criminologists.
Oh well, this is one way for a nobody to get a kind of fame, I suppose: kill people. At least the killer will get a careful write-up on Wikipedia! -- Hoary 06:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
70.55.85.67 08:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify matters, can we please straighten out the classification of bio entries as in Category:American criminals -- specifically what I mean is that in this case Cho can indeed be considered a criminal, as per the guidelines, because he was not convicted due to him dying during the commission of his crime. That's my reading of the rules. Pablosecca 09:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I heard a news interview on NPR late night via BBC in which the commentator had dealt extensively with children who had been molested. She said she felt unequivocally that he had been molested as a child based on the nature of his writing and communication. Note that he cited notorious teachers John Mark Karr and Debra Lafave, both themselves child molesters and teachers.
Cho said his reasoning was, "For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you fuck, I did it for them…" Could this be a reference to victims of child molestation ("my brothers and sisters that you fuck")? This line of questioning should be at least referenced in the article as it is getting mentioned in the press and it deserves inclusion.
While this is a very interesting subject (and most likely quite True), 'Secondgen' is right ... it doesn't belong in Wiki unless we start getting some news reports/commentary on it, and/or the Investigation of the Crime Scene comes up with an "official" motive - possibly including the molestation factor. To just add my own $0.02 (being educated in psychology- abnormal/clinical- and currently in the medical field), I think it's pretty clear that Cho was lashing out at molestation that he at least perceived to be happening to him (and others) - whether it was mental/emotional molestation or physical - and whether or not it was coming from teachers, parents/family or his peers ... Cho, at least, believed it to be true and for him - his perception is all that matters (in terms of leading him to action). Sad either way. 172.146.142.247 20:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
I believe that my previous comments/requests about this are being overlooked due the length of this Talk page, so I am starting a new topic in order to call attention to a false statement; which, hopefully, someone w/EDIT access will correct.
The quote from ABC News about Cho's medication for Depression erroneously states that, "no record of [Cho's] medication for depression existed in FEDERAL PRESCRIPTION DATABASES."
Please refer to my comment(s) on this subject earlier in the Talk Page (go to other heading), but suffice it to say that no such Databases exist, save for the very few number of states which have STATE Prescription Databases/Tracking Systems, of which Virginia is *not* one.
Since this is Reference/Source material, Wiki should not tolerate perpetuating a false statement and this needs to removed ASAP. I do not have the ability to Edit, so I am asking some kind soul to Please do this for me. Thank you SO much! 172.146.142.247 19:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
My earlier comments are under the heading: "Cho's Medication: There are No Federal Prescription Databases" about halfway up this page (they have not yet been archived).
I don't think anyone would disagree with removing this -- so can someone w/EDIT Access please remove it? Thanx 172.146.142.247 19:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
'Phoney Saint' - Googling doesn't prove it is operational/in place. It is true that it has been PROPOSED, but it is NOT YET fully operational or in place. Please see my comments in the earlier section --- some states, such as Texas, do have Rx Monitoring, but it is STATEwide - however, prescriptions of controlled substances fall under FEDERAL Jurisdiction (and the DEA), so perhaps that is where the confusion lies.
'Dynaflow' - thank you SO MUCH for changing the comment. What you said is perfect. Many thanks (hope no one puts it back either) 172.146.142.247 20:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Have they published the written pages from the multimedia manisfesto? Where can I get my hands on something more than just the still shots.
His E-mail : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
His Shool E-Mail : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
eBay Account : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Source [2] [3] Pgdn963 21:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
So? Burned thru 21:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. Exploitative journalism at its worst. We do not need to follow suit. — Resurgent insurgent 2007-04-22 23:17 Z
"They're not disruptive," she said. "Those students are withdrawn and isolated, and even though we see that as a problem, because it's not disruptive, often they slip through the cracks."
Actually, it fits many of the occasions where he would just say nothing or behave in a withdrawn manner. Although in the period leading up to the harrassment and shootings disruption applies but I think what the expert says applies to earlier periods of bullying such is highschool where instances that might have provoked action on his part occurred but there are not reports of violence or disruption from him during that period. According to the expert this is an example of "internalizing" depression, rather than acting out. In this way, such people "slip through the cracks." W.C. 13:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
"Korean society — Confucian, patriarchal, and steeped in pride, dignity and the importance of family — has long viewed mental illness as a taboo topic best kept in the closet." [4] W.C. 22:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
If you have references for what you've just written maybe you should add them to the article. If not, others may still find the wording used in NPR useful in giving a context to how such a person managed to "slip through the cracks".W.C. 13:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
No mention in this article of the South Korean film Oldboy and the "Hammer pose"? Even Washington Post, TIME, NYTimes covered this. Do a Google search. According to Sky News, detectives claim Cho watched the film repeatedly just prior to the massacre. ( http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261402,00.html). Even in the Oldboy Wikipedia article, the Virginia Tech massacre is mentioned. I think it deserves a mention here too. It's a highly sourced point, not OR. -- Naus 02:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's an article from The Washington Post that discusses the results of Cho's autopsy. According to information from the article, the state examiner's office authorized the release of Cho's body to his family. Here's the citation: Rucker, P. & Spinner, J. (2007, April 23). No Abnormalities Found in Cho's Brain. The Washington Post, p. A09. Retrieved April 23, 2007. lwalt 05:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The point in question: Cho Seung-hui, the way most news services are reporting his name; or Seung Cho, the way the person himself used his name. Which ordering should this article use? Add your vote here. Consensus goes to the majority. GarryKosmos 06:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
He lived in the USA for many, many years and I'm sure he used the American custom of personal name first, family name after! To put his family name first is quite pedantic. -- Sonjaaa 09:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
1 : an American Indian of North America or South America 2 : a native or inhabitant of North America or South America 3 : a citizen of the United States 4 : AMERICAN ENGLISH
Obviously they do not have to be all of the following.
Main Entry: in·hab·i·tant Pronunciation: in-'ha-b&-t&nt Function: noun one that occupies a particular place regularly, routinely, or for a period of time <inhabitants of large cities> <the tapeworm is an inhabitant of the intestine>
Also, there are countless numbers of permanent residents like Seung-hui Cho who are in the United States military. They represent America, therefore are Americans.
Secondgen 11:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the NY Times calls him Cho Seung-Hui or Mr. Cho. [1] I won't tell you what I've been calling him. pointlessforest 19:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The name Cho Seung-hui is accurate. What needs to be fixed is the date. The incident occurred not in the year 2007, but in the year 4340 of the Dangun-giwon Dynasty. — Tdadamemd 05:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
it should be Cho Seung-hui, think about Kim Jong-il-- Lerdthenerd 11:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Istillcandream 23:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that the family is known to prefer "Seung-hui Cho," it seems like the news media organizations are changing their minds about the presentation of his name.
We may have to hold another discussion and possibly have the article moved. WhisperToMe 01:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I think a bold move would be justified, but perhaps another quick poll on this question given the changing circumstances (i.e. the switch by the media) is the best way to go? I have a feeling many editors who voted for Cho Seung-hui earlier might change their votes now and thus we should start from scratch. Or someone with the authority to move this could just step in and do so. Thoughts?-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This is my first comment, but I would wonder if it's possible to have a double listing of the "name" chosen, so that if someone looks up the "name" in either the Korean style, or the American style, they would be able to see the subject at both places? If not, then maybe a note could be added to the place where the name ISN'T located, pointing to where the subject "name" is located, and how it is spelled. Starbright1 05:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Since I posted a message on the original author's discussion page, which I proceeded to ignore, I will broach the topic here
AFAIC, there's no justifiable reason for this article to have a "naming" section. Wikipedia has a Korean name template for this very purpose.
{{Korean name|[[Cho (Korean name)|Cho]]}}
gives you:
This is a Korean name; the family name is Cho, and, unlike Western family names, comes first when pronouncing full names.
We don't need a whole paragraph talking about possible variations on a name. It adds nothing to this article. Delete it. Bueller 007 16:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Your point is credited, but this kid grew up in America from age 8 on. Do we have a source that confirms that he indeed went by his last name, Cho, instead of his first name Seung-Hui? We have to remember that this guy is way more of a product of America than he is of South Korea. I think its severely misleading to write his name as Cho Seung-hui, this only perpetuates the idea that Seung-Hui is a foreigner and that his actions stem from non-American influences. In fact if you look at the plays he wrote, you'll notice that he himself prefers to go by Seung Cho. Moreover, naming him by his last name first contradicts previous wiki articles. Refer to "gang lu" for example, in that case Lu is the surname, but is listed after his first name, Gang.
Wikipedia's Korean name template is for KOREANS not Korean Americans. The vast vast majority of Asian-Americans in the US list their first names first, proceeded by their last name. This is a HUGE issue guys, the media has already played up the xenophobic, foreign, outsider image to the max, I don't think wiki should follow in that direction.
Now that the press is debating the naming order, I say we should keep the section. WhisperToMe 02:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a very big deal, by referring to him as Cho you are giving his whole family a bad name, his name was Seung-Hui, with his family name of Cho, to keep referring to him as Cho you are referring to his whole family. All references of Seung-Hui, should be called Seung-Hui, not Cho. The media has it WRONG.
I have been removing then as per WP:Flags whats other user opinion on this . I mean X place , USA adds no information, this article is not about the american flag and doesnt need to be included ( Gnevin 19:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC))
The first two references cited are in Chinese. Isn't that strange? He has nothing to do with China. And I don't think Chinese reports are suitable in the reference section.-- Bicttobuct 05:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Bicttobuct: Koreans in Korea have official names written in Chinese characters. These Chinese characters are recorded together with other vital information (birth order etc.) in the family's official registration documents.
In newspapers and other informal writing, names are usually written phonetically in hangul script rather than the more complex Chinese characters. By contrast, Chinese language media are forced by linguistic convention to use the actual Chinese characters. Sometimes, the characters used will be based on guesswork, but if the subject is reasonably prominent, considerable efforts are made to establish the authentic characters from witnesses or official documents. This is why Chinese-language documents are usually the best source to verify the written form of Korean names. Note that the standard for Wikipedia is that material should be verifiable, not (necessarily) true.
Why do Chinese characters matter? Chinese characters matter because they impart meaning that is not clear from the phonetic representation. The actual choice of Chinese characters is a significant indicator of cultural choices by the parents. Recognizing this, the South Korean Foreign Ministry in fact announced the specific Chinese characters constituting Cho's name, but it is quite possible that this official announcement is deliberately wrong. WikiFlier 21:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe the section about his "Preparation" should be amplified to include the fact he went to the extra, lethal length of using hollow-point bullets and multiple-round clips. Right now, the Preparation section mentions that he purchased two guns, but his choice of ammo shows an even greater degree of pre-planned malice. Here is a good link to include as a source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18209746 71.121.135.67 05:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
.22 caliber Walther P22 and 9 mm Glock 19 handguns — both expensive, accurate guns favored by gun enthusiasts and cops" Bought first gun from : "thegunsource.com" Purchased second at: "Roanoke Firearms"
"This afternoon, NBC received a package they believe was sent to the network by Cho...It appears that the suspect took the time to mail a package in between his shooting spree—-showing a degree of cold-blooded planning." ( http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3052278&page=1)
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cho_Seung-hui) Evaulator 14:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that we ought to point out the fact that some of the pics from Cho's Murder Manifesto were actually taken during his killing spree? I mean, if that isn't Notable, then what in the world is? NBC News, Dateline, the Today Show, and several other news outlets (to name a few) have reported that it is clear (some say, has been 'proven') that the pics of Cho taken in his dormitory room, in which he is dressed in the khaki vest carrying ammo and the black baseball cap turned backwards, were taken just after he killed (assassinated, imho) the first two students in their dorm, and immediately prior to mailing his 'Manifesto' after which he continued his rampage by shooting all of the students in/around Norris.
The pic we have here on WIKI of Cho holding both guns is one such photo that was taken during the killing spree -- making it doubly Infamous (and Notable) .... as it is both the exact image that the students/victims saw coming after them that day AND it was actually taken during the horrible act. I cannot think of ANY other instance in which we have a PHOTOGRAPHIC RECORD of a killer actually committing his crimes other than the video from Columbine, and this one is unique for a couple of reasons. Therefore, because of its Notability and being utterly Unique, I think it bears mentioning (perhaps under the caption - maybe in a section/paragraph?) in the article on Cho. Maybe even within the section on his 'Murder Manifesto' ... since his video diary includes a section that he recorded during the murders ... in which he said that "you" made "him" do it and 'it didn't have to happen' (my opinion: 'whatever, Jerk'). Any other ideas or opinions on this? 172.146.142.247 20:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Bueller -- what I meant by "During" was in the MIDDLE of the killing spree
which is why I expanded on my comments and specified that they were taken BETWEEN the first shootings at AJ and the second at Norris.
Additionally, the fact that CERTAIN PICS/VIDEO were taken "During" the killing spree - IN BETWEEN the first and second murder sites - HAS been conclusively proven ... they used the Time Stamps on the Pics, the Video, the DVD/Computer Disks, and the Forensic Investigation of Cho's computer to Conclusively Determine WHEN these were taken, and the pic of Cho dressed in the Vest, Backwards Baseball cap, Black T-shirt, fingerless gloves, and holding the guns WAS taken just after Cho killed Hilsher and Clarke and immediately prior to him mailing the 'manifesto' and subsequently shooting his victims at Norris. If you will look at the main article for the 'Virginia Tech Massacre', it already references these facts. We just don't have them cited/referenced correctly here on this page. (And they should be - especially for continuity). Can someone with EDIT CAPABILITY please correct and update this to match the main article? Thanx 172.132.29.212 15:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Ok - I will try to find some on the Net. I am certain of my information however, since our local news ran a story/update on it and SPECIFIED that the time stamps they were referencing were FROM THE COMPUTER/DVD, making a point to say that it made the pictures/video from that day/time "all the more chilling" .... Additionally, this fact was discussed at length on 3 separate Talk Radio programs I listen to - oops, I mean Four. If I get a chance, I'll try to find a transcript online. I have S-L-O-W dial-up, so I can't do it quickly or easily as opposed to others. Thanx 172.132.29.212 15:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
IIRC, the timestamps that you're mentioning was already said by MSNBC to be the time that Cho was manipulating the data (i.e. moving the files around onto his comp, burning em to the DVD), but not specifically the exact times he shot the pictures. There wasn't any specific evidence to the fact that he took the pictures between the murders AFAIK. Also, I'd make it a point not to get my forensic information from anywhere aside from the investigators on something like this.
I don't think that the Forensic Team has made any kind of public statement *personally* anywhere (I would love to know if they have and I somehow overlooked it, but so far, this is not something I've found) ---- instead, the findings of the Forensic Team have been reported by various media outlets. Now, I will agree that this is not the ideal source of information - particularly since there have been a number of items that have been erroneously reported in this investigation so far ..... however, these errors have become plain enough when the *majority* of the media has presented the correct data/information and only a very few have persisted with faulty stories. I only brought this up after watching several news organizations discuss it at length and point out the difference between the time stamps for mailing and those included on the digital photos (the timestamps both for capture and uploading to disk) as well as the proof contained in the associated video where Cho is sweating, panting, and visibly altered (in stark contrast to the rest of his entire 'package' taken over a period of time) in the time-stamped period between the AJ killings and the Norris Hall killings. If not for those numerous news commentaries built around this very issue, I never would have mentioned this. 172.132.29.212 16:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Article describes Cho as a "mass murderer," but the definition of murder precludes insanity -- an insane person is not capable of murder because he or she does not have a sound mind. All of the descriptions of Cho in childhood and in recent years outline a person is was mentally ill. So, like John Hinckley, Jr., if Cho is was mentally ill then he was not capable of the crime of murder. The source linked to the term mass murder also describes it as someone who is guilty of murdering many people, but it too stands on the definition of murder as a crime committed by someone who is sane. The links to that article likewise do not reference verifiable sources. 69.255.0.91 23:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a fair defense, and one I'm inclined to accept in not tagging Cho as a murderer/criminal. WatchingYouLikeAHawk 01:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I do not have the ability to EDIT, so if someone who does could please correct this, I would appreciate it. As was verified on NPR just this morning, the State of VIRGINIA currently does NOT require an Instant Background Check in order to purchase a gun. This requirement was part of the proposed legislation to change the current gun laws, but it has NOT YET been passed. When Cho purchased his gun(s), all he was required to do was to show THREE FORMS OF ID: Cho presented his State of VA Driver's License, his Legal Resident (aka 'green') Card, and (unbelievably!) a Pre-printed CHECK w/his name and address on it. This has been reported/verified by the store (Blacksburg Gun Shop), the Chief Investigator (Blacksburg Police), the ATF, and numerous other news sources who have been running side stories on gun laws/gun control related to this incident (and how easy it was for Cho to LEGALLY get those guns). Of particular interest, is the issue of Cho's Documented MENTAL ILLNESS, which would have PREVENTED him from legally obtaining a Gun (in those states that require a Background Check - of which Virginia is NOT one) ... IF Virginia would have had this law on the books at the time -- an Instant Background Check would have PREVENTED Cho from buying the guns. Since this issue is white-hot right now, it makes this erroneous statement all the more troubling ... and it needs to be removed (no matter if it was incorrectly reported previously). For further evidence, on Sunday 4/22, the tv news show 'Face the Nation' addressed this very issue, describing how ironic and sad it was that Virginia had failed to pass legislation requiring an Instant Background Check. Can someone please remove the statement and correct this? Thanx! 172.132.29.212 15:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Thanks for your comment, because after doing a cursory GOOGLE, I found that this statement is most definitely 'in dispute'.
First, on Google, I am finding statments that are what I would term 'second hand' that say that VA DOES require an instant Background Check. The 'first-hand' info (like a pamphlet of the state gun laws) SO FAR, says that Gun DEALERS have to pass a Background Check when BUYING guns for sale (a bit different, and certainly very confusing to those not familiar) - so I am wondering if this is the source of the confusion. Then, I found a few sources that say the Blacksburg gun shop owner said Cho 'passed the instant background check' - yet, none of these are first-hand, and the shop owner was NOT present when Cho purchased the gun. So far, ALL of these 'reports' are at least 5 days old. None are recent. What really confuses me is that I listened to 2 HOURS of Sean Hannity on the radio talking about what a shame it was that VA did not have this Background Check rqmnt in place (and Hannity is very, very careful w/his information) -- a transcript is not yet available, since this was w/in just days ago. Furthermore, I watched the rep from the BRADY CENTER FOR GUN CONTROL all last week and this weekend and at the END of Last Week and through the Weekend, the Brady Rep CHANGED HIS STORY from saying that the Background Check was Fallible because it didn't show Cho's Mental Illness (Court order to seek counseling), to his now saying that 'the state of VA needs to require a Background Check because they failed to pass that law and it is vital that they do it and that furthermore, if VA HAD that law on the books, Cho would not have been able to buy a gun'.
Now, that perplexes me ---- what is going on here? I don't want to report false information - either way - and my only interest is that the FACTS are being properly referenced here. Does anyone have an answer for these discrepancies -- or know why they keep changing their story(ies)? 172.132.29.212 17:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Ok - I found something that MAY end up being the explanation for the discrepancy (although it still may be that there is confusion about what transpired at the Blacksburg gun shop):
it seems that the current laws of VA would NOT have req. a Background Check for the 22cal gun purch. on the Net.
Maybe that is the issue - different rules for the two different guns? I'm still not entirely sure, but it's a start. 172.132.29.212 17:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Right, that's what I'm saying. The INTERNET rpts state that the BLACKSBURG gun shop ran a Background Check, but the Brady Center Rep is NOW saying that one was not done --- when I researched this on the NET, the only reason I find for this discrepancy is the FACT that the INTERNET GUN PURCHASE (NOT the Blacksburg gun shop) would NOT have required a background check (and nowhere can I find any mention that one was one for the purchase of the 22cal on the NET), and perhaps the BRADY CENTER REP either MEANT that he was referencing the 22cal purchase, OR he was confused by the Two DIFFERENT requirements under the VA law (as the current VA law does NOT require a background check for FFL gun owners at a gun OR for internet/mail order purchases). 172.132.29.212 18:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
I think we should have a full transcript of everything he said in the videos he sent to NBC (that was released). Malamockq 21:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if that is okay on Wikisource WhisperToMe 21:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm actually having trouble with the transcripts that NBC released in the innaccurate media reports article. They say that he's saying "Jesus loved to crucify me. You loved inducing cancer into my head." Off the top of my head I can only be sure of what I placed in bold. When you listen to the video, it sounds like he could likely be saying "You just loved to crucify me" Considering that the idea that he's anti-Christin is premature and does not fit with any of his quotes except for this one which might have been wrongfully quoted, I think it's a good idea to give people a resource of his quotes, but I think that it should be noted that the transcripts given by NBC may have been incorrect. Youngidealist 23:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This article once had a pronunciation audio file. Someone deleted it, I suspect to deemphasize Cho's "foreignness". However, the fact is (and facts are important to Wikipedia) that Cho was a Korean national. Seung Hui Cho is thus a romanization of his real name, which is written in Korean characters and pronounced in a certain way. This is not merely an academic point -- some news organizations are pronouncing his name like "Joe". The Delete Police are doing us no favors by deleting stuff for no good reason and without discussion. What do people think about restoring pronunciation, perhaps in the "name" section. Soda80 02:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
"Prior to committing the killings, Cho is said to have possessed three (and most likely more) general characteristics common among school shooters: (1) Cho did not simply "snap". The disturbing manifesto he created was made over a period of at least six days, according to PDF and CD dates investigators were able to uncover, and he bought the guns used in the killings several weeks before the massacre took place. (2) Cho was considered a threat by others, even though he never overtly threatened anyone. (3) Fellow students and teachers were concerned by Cho's behavior. Many students found his writing disturbingly dark and overly angry. [34]"
This is biased and is not encyclopedic. The source given is a piece of commentary, not factual information.
http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html
Upon understanding this, all is clear.
STOP SIMPLIFYING THINGS. It doesn't matter what you call him. He murdered 30 people. The media now todays has to give simple labels to things so people can easily categorize people as "martyr" or "terrorist" or "revolutionary". The President and his administration have people thinking of black and white, you're either good or evil, patriot or terrorist, if you're not with us you're against us. It doesn't matter what you call him. It never will. The term "terrorist" gets thrown around entirely too much today and is a cute word for people to use for anyone who is "evil". Terrorist is a simple word and has no relevance to the situation. Things aren't always black and white. Calling him something is just a waste of time. And it does not matter what religion he is to consider what to call him. If people continue to simplify people and just label them then you play into stereotypes and ignorance. Labeling people is subjective and is pointless in this article. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, one mans martyr is another's heretic.-- 68.193.135.2 21:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Given that we all know now that Cho was a Christian and grow up as a Christian and made inferences in his Video to him being like Jesus
"Thanks to you, I die, Like Jesus, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people" He also made inferences of being a Martyr, in the christian sense.
Should we label him as a Christian Terrorist? or a Korean Terrorist? Asian Terrorist? Immigrant Terrorist? or just a Terrorist?
==> Please post links to your supports that Cho is a christian. No major network has posted anything remotely resembling that.
If Cho had any affiliation with the Muslim Religion, you can be assured that the media today would immediately jump on his religion and automatically label him as a potential terrorist or Muslim terrorist and focus on his religion. But because Cho was a Christian and not from the Middle East or any of the Muslim countries, the term "Terror" is not even mentioned nor his religion questioned.
It seems like the term "Terror" is only reserved for any of the 1.4 billion Muslims. And when ever any one of those 1.4 Muslims commits a crime they are immediately affiliated with their religion (painting the impression that it is the religion that made them do it).
On the other hand, you can have columbine shooting, Oklahoma bombing, the Jeffery Dahmers, Ted Kazinski, and on and on, but no one will ever associate their religion with them. Why the double standard???
Let us realize and learn that "Terror has no religion, no ethnicity, no nationality, no race, and no boundaries" Cho Terrorized thousands of people and by definition he is a terrorist.
A terrorist is someone whose primary goal in their actions is to incite terror. As far as I can tell, his primary goal was to kill people. Titanium Dragon 00:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think saying he is a Christian is speculation. On the other hand, he might have been raised as a Christian. (Which is a big difference to me) Istillcandream 02:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Titanium Dragon has a lot to learn about what being a Christian is. Just because you CLAIM to BE something doesn't make you one! By the way they live, is how you tell whether or not a person is a Christian, or just someone pretending to be a Christian. And it's disgusting for you to suggest that Christians, or ANYONE, "should take pride" in murderers!!! Please be more grown-up in your response to topics here!!! Starbright1 06:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
He is a martyr or revolutionary. Unfortunately revolutionary has ties with radicalism which has ties with terrorism. MSM views it all the same, plus terrorist is a charged word. 67.11.138.50 08:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
He's a terrorist because he felt he represented an idea that would live on, he felt he was creating a spectacle that would get a lot of attention and teach society a lesson they would never forget, his actions were calculated to incite the most fear (the level of attention he is getting is really a reflection of our fear of a mass murderer who sets his own time to die), he knew he was setting an example for copycats, and he was issuing a call to action in a way that would guarantee that society would give in to his demands. (Being a terrorist does not require that you act in the name of a religion. And Cho is not a martyr because he did not die at the hands of others who were persecuting him.)
Statements from those involved in the dispute
Statement: A few users continue to remove Category:Korean Americans from the Cho Seung-hui page. Cho was born in South Korea but legally emigrated to the United States at the age of 8. He and his family were permanent, legal residents of the U.S., and there is no indication that he ever returned to Korea after the age of 8, except perhaps (though I'm not sure even of this) for brief visits. (Edit: This article impiles they never returned at all after 1992: [13]) He was raised in suburban Virginia, attended U.S. public schools, and was attending a U.S. university at the time of his death. In other words, he did not live on an embassy compound or was not otherwise isolated from mainstream U.S. society. As one would expect of someone who became a member of a culture at the age of 8, he spoke the culture's dominant language, in this case English, as a native speaker would. In other words, during the period of time in which a person absorbs and assimilates a culture -- in his case, from the age of 8 until the age of 23 -- he lived only in the United States.
Those who want to remove this category seem to be certain that one can only be a Korean American if one is a U.S. citizen. While there is certainly a legal definition of "American" that is an equivalent to "U.S. citizen" for the purposes of voting and obtaining a passport, the term "Korean American" is not a legal term (it holds no legal weight since evidently you can't be a dual U.S.-Korea passport holder), but rather it's a cultural one. The term implies a sense of belonging to two cultures, frequently experienced by first-generation, " Generation 1.5" (which Cho was), and second-generation immigrants. The confusion about this term is between those who see it somehow as a strict legal definition requiring one to be a U.S. citizen rather than a legal, permanent resident (which is not a widely accepted use of the term), and those who see Korean American as a term in the broader sense, meaning one who lives legally and for the long-term in the United States while being of Korean heritage or birth. Previous discussions of this question, in an attempt to find resolution of the matter, are here and here. Question: Should this category be allowed to remain in the article? Moncrief 13:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Have any sources specifically say he is not "Korean American"? I've only seen him described as a resident alien. The way that a term like "Korean American" is used, it doesn't always necessitate US citizenship, and it looks like Moncrief has provided sources to support that. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 00:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Just my two cents, but it seems to me that "nationality-American" (almost?) always denotes second-generation (or later) immigrants. (e.g. Amy is an African-American descendant of African immigrants, Bob is an Irish-American descendant of Irish immigrants, etc.) Since there is no legal definition of the label, doesn't the answer rely on whether the subject self-applies it? Since the definition of "Korean American" is contentious, and in the absence of evidence for or against self-application, I think Category:Korean immigrants to the United States alone is more accurate and appropriate. Demong 01:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll leave it to others to determine whether they want to try and make use of some of the initial details here [18] at this time, or wait until the full reports are released and digested by the press. W.C. 22:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a screen capture of the text from Cho's manifesto. [19] -- Uthbrian ( talk) 03:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I realise wiki is an encyclopedia of everything but many believe that the reason these school shooters take out a whole bunch of people with them is for the notoriety, the infamy, many news broadcasters have wisely decided not to air any info on the shooter. If we limit the info released about the shooter released so that they achieve no infamy on notoriety it may stave off future large massacres. Thats why i believe he should be removed from wiki why give this man who did something so aweful exactly what he wants?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stupidknowledge24 ( talk • contribs).
Perhaps it is hazardous to have so much attention given to Cho, and I agree that it very well may contribute to more mass murderers in the future. Even Cho himself was apparently influenced somewhat by the Comlumbine killers, and there could be a disasterous chain effect. But, I give you another possibility -- people might come to use wikipedia to learn about the guy and the case and use that info to prevent such a thing from happening again. "Knowledge is power," yadda yadda yadda.... It's practical to have a sort of gathering place where all viable info on Cho is compiled so that the case can be studied. Although Congress would also have studies on this and could legislate and regulate to make things work, we don't have the same informational resources as Congress does, so wikipedia might just be the best we have. J.J. Bustamante 13:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know where to get the full text (or as much of it as possible) of his 1800-word manifesto? Christopher Connor 20:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The page didn't say anything about his death.
http://asherheimermann.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/2nd-killer/ This is something that we should do more work on? 67.36.86.19 21:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I can't find a dictionary that uses the word "railing" as a verb. I don't know what journalist came up with the word, but i think it shoud go. I'll give some time for others here to respond before I remove it from the NBC contents section Youngidealist 05:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
"[Middle English railen, from Old French railler, to tease, joke, from Old Provençal ralhar, to chat, joke, from Vulgar Latin *ragulāre, to bray, from Late Latin ragere.]"
To all those that contributed to this artice: Thank you! It is much more informative, tasteful and intelligent than any coverage I have seen in the news media. 24.215.145.136 06:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
After I read through the article, I see that unconfirmed diagnoses and POV statements are creeping into this piece that speculated Cho's mental illness. Can everyone refrain from introducing speculation from real and "armchair" psychiatrists, psychologists and media outlets to keep the article of this information? To my knowledge, I know of no reports that present a confirmed mental illness condition suffered by Cho.
...from the Release of material section
Some psychiatrists who reviewed the materials believe that Cho's rantings offer little insight into the mental illness that may have triggered his rampage. Dr. Michael Wellner stated, "These videos do not help us understand [Cho]. They distort him. He was meek. He was quiet. This is a PR tape of him trying to turn himself into a Quentin Tarantino character."
This information does not appear to have nothing to do with the direct release of the packaged by NBC. This analysis was probably done by psychiatrists who either theorized his mental capacity from information from news reports or were asked by media outlets to give an opinion on Cho's mental condition. In anything, this part belongs in the Reaction to writings section.
...from the Behavior as a young child section
Cho's maternal grandaunt, Kim Yang-soon, described Cho as "cold" and a cause of family concern as an 8-year-old. According to Kim—who met him only twice—the boy was extremely shy and rarely talked unless prompted. He was otherwise considered "well-behaved." After arriving in the U.S., Cho's parents told the elderly aunt he may have autism, a developmental disability marked by profound social isolation and delayed speech acquisition. The aunt said she knew something was wrong because she heard frequent updates about Cho's older sister, but little news about Cho.
"Korean culture does not recognize mental illness,” according to UCLA's Kyeyoung Park, an anthropologist and professor of Korean Studies. “People do not recognize it or get help. There is a huge stigma.” Consequently, and because the confession video showed no indication of autistic behavior, this supposed early "autism" diagnosis has been thrown into doubt. Kim later clarified that Cho's parents only recently offered autism as an explanation for their son's behaviors, sharing the revelation in a recent New Year's call. An autism diagnosis could not be verified with Cho's U.S. family, nor is it clear whether it was ever used by U.S. school authorities ("no records show such a diagnosis"). "Relatives thought he might be a mute. Or mentally ill," reported the New York Times.18 Cho's childhood and later behaviors may signal selective mutism, a rare anxiety disorder sometimes mistaken for autism in children. Selective mutism has been linked (in rare cases) to later psychosis and rampage killings.
To address his emotional problems, Cho's parents would take him to church. He was bullied in his Christian youth group, especially by wealthy members.
Most of this text does not belong in the article, since much some of it appears to be original research that adds nothing about Cho's behavior during childhood. From what I see, only the first paragraph describes Cho's behavior as a young child, since this info comes from a firsthand account of a relative. If any of the other information could be verified/validated, the rest of it could be included in a new section about how the South Korean culture views mental illness, but even that is a stretch and out of scope for this article, since this type of information applies generally to a group of people and not specifically to Cho.
---
My other concern here is that some of this information has been recycled and placed in the article in news format (e.g., Kim met Cho in fifth grade, attending the same classes and riding the school bus together. There were only three Korean students in the school. Back then, he said, nobody hated Cho and he "was recognised by friends as a boy of knowledge... a good dresser who was popular with the girls." Cho kept a distance from others because he chose to do so. Kim added that "I only have good memories about him."). lwalt 14:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The main page should display warnings about bias. Since there is no diagnosis of autism, it is not the disease and, since it is a very misunderstood disease (which can't be "eliminated" the way "Rock Autism" claims) -- this is an example of the article's speculative bias and lack of factual matter. Please place an NPOV or other appropriate tag on the page. 70.5.81.28 13:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The photo has been re-cropped to remove the second person, but it still is not sourced. The newly cropped image has also had the name tag removed from view, the original name displayed as Hui. It appears to me that someone found a picture of an Asian soldier and decided to post it... I recommend immediate delete. Pissedpat 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Edit By Nathan Fluet webmaster of abuse-of-power.org : The way to discern the authenticity of a photo is not by looking at a name tag please look at these enlarged comparisons
http://abuse-of-power.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=314 of the image alongside 2 known photos of Cho from NBC there are common scars and both the eyes, nose and brow all match the eyebrows don't but again you don't use hair to match a subject you use facial structure and this my friends is Cho.
Abuseofpower
10:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow you cant even click on a link and look at the comparison huh so you know i have even shown this comparison to a South Korean and he said it is the same person too, this isn't a round eye seeing all Asians as looking the same as i said there is even a common scar. Abuseofpower 12:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
That is a good picture to prove my method of comparing facial structure, in this picture we see almond shaped eyes relatively evenly tapered at each side in the picture in question and in all known picture of Cho the eyes are wider on the inside edge and tapers on the outside edge, next this mans brow is not near as pronounced as the brow of Cho but the man in the picture in question has the same structure to his brow as Cho, next is to compare the space between the eyes, and then the space from the inner edge of the eye to the side of the bridge of the nose, next comes measurement of the length and width of the nose followed by scar identification and comparison. All of these comparisons show this picture in question is in fact Cho, when you have a arguement slightly more scientific I would look forward to hearing it. Abuseofpower 12:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hairlines can be easily modified as the eyebrows can look at the Virginia tech ID picture and the NBC pictures his eyebrows are longer in the ID this proves nothing are you going to say the ID picture isn't Cho now? And if you want i can add Cho's ID to the comparison as the scar is visible in that picture too as well as the marine picture. And to answer your question I grew up with all Laotian, Vietnamese and South Koreans my best friends back home were all of those nationalities and I used to speak Laotian fairly well, you want to paint me as a ignorant person who thinks all Asians look alike the fact of the matter is that i can tell most Asian peoples nationality by looking at there face because each country has its own unique facial characteristics, foreheads, brows, eye shape, cheekbone structure etc... for you to attempt to say that you cant match these available facial features including the shape and size of the nose, the outline of which is clearly visible through the balaclava is ridiculous do you think that every Asian persons eyes are the same distance apart and that every one of there noses is the same length,eyes the same width and shape, and that they all have matching scars on there brows lets be serious here.. Abuseofpower 13:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't worry your not, but your arguement is no good hair grows back fast and the time it would take, even for the picture he has the longest hair in would be a few months from a high and tight, also his mental illness was not diagnosed until 2005 and he is 23 so that wouldn't have been a factor in joining the services if he say joined at 18, if i did my math right he started at VT when he was 19. If he served only a year or less I doubt you would see the line, after many years of the same cut maybe, but not after 1. By the way i received my Honorable Discharge in February of 2006. Also do you know of any higher quality copies of the NBC photos because I will gladly debunk my own theory if they show things differently than the slightly pixelated ones.
Abuseofpower
16:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Hasn't been posted that he acquired two ammo clips from Ebay. The handle was Blazers5505 on ebay.com and the store was "Oneclickshooting." Beyond me if this is even worth mentioning or if there's a relavence to anything else. Just pointing it out. Neutralitybias 03:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually the fleabay story has been posted, at least twice. Most recently, it was said that this story appeared on Fox "News".
I'd leave to the police and criminologists the matter of "its relevance to anything else". But then perhaps I'm unusual in not understanding how going nuts and offing people renders the killer worthy of detailed examination other than by the police and criminologists.
Oh well, this is one way for a nobody to get a kind of fame, I suppose: kill people. At least the killer will get a careful write-up on Wikipedia! -- Hoary 06:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
70.55.85.67 08:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify matters, can we please straighten out the classification of bio entries as in Category:American criminals -- specifically what I mean is that in this case Cho can indeed be considered a criminal, as per the guidelines, because he was not convicted due to him dying during the commission of his crime. That's my reading of the rules. Pablosecca 09:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I heard a news interview on NPR late night via BBC in which the commentator had dealt extensively with children who had been molested. She said she felt unequivocally that he had been molested as a child based on the nature of his writing and communication. Note that he cited notorious teachers John Mark Karr and Debra Lafave, both themselves child molesters and teachers.
Cho said his reasoning was, "For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you fuck, I did it for them…" Could this be a reference to victims of child molestation ("my brothers and sisters that you fuck")? This line of questioning should be at least referenced in the article as it is getting mentioned in the press and it deserves inclusion.
While this is a very interesting subject (and most likely quite True), 'Secondgen' is right ... it doesn't belong in Wiki unless we start getting some news reports/commentary on it, and/or the Investigation of the Crime Scene comes up with an "official" motive - possibly including the molestation factor. To just add my own $0.02 (being educated in psychology- abnormal/clinical- and currently in the medical field), I think it's pretty clear that Cho was lashing out at molestation that he at least perceived to be happening to him (and others) - whether it was mental/emotional molestation or physical - and whether or not it was coming from teachers, parents/family or his peers ... Cho, at least, believed it to be true and for him - his perception is all that matters (in terms of leading him to action). Sad either way. 172.146.142.247 20:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
I believe that my previous comments/requests about this are being overlooked due the length of this Talk page, so I am starting a new topic in order to call attention to a false statement; which, hopefully, someone w/EDIT access will correct.
The quote from ABC News about Cho's medication for Depression erroneously states that, "no record of [Cho's] medication for depression existed in FEDERAL PRESCRIPTION DATABASES."
Please refer to my comment(s) on this subject earlier in the Talk Page (go to other heading), but suffice it to say that no such Databases exist, save for the very few number of states which have STATE Prescription Databases/Tracking Systems, of which Virginia is *not* one.
Since this is Reference/Source material, Wiki should not tolerate perpetuating a false statement and this needs to removed ASAP. I do not have the ability to Edit, so I am asking some kind soul to Please do this for me. Thank you SO much! 172.146.142.247 19:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
My earlier comments are under the heading: "Cho's Medication: There are No Federal Prescription Databases" about halfway up this page (they have not yet been archived).
I don't think anyone would disagree with removing this -- so can someone w/EDIT Access please remove it? Thanx 172.146.142.247 19:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
'Phoney Saint' - Googling doesn't prove it is operational/in place. It is true that it has been PROPOSED, but it is NOT YET fully operational or in place. Please see my comments in the earlier section --- some states, such as Texas, do have Rx Monitoring, but it is STATEwide - however, prescriptions of controlled substances fall under FEDERAL Jurisdiction (and the DEA), so perhaps that is where the confusion lies.
'Dynaflow' - thank you SO MUCH for changing the comment. What you said is perfect. Many thanks (hope no one puts it back either) 172.146.142.247 20:39, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Have they published the written pages from the multimedia manisfesto? Where can I get my hands on something more than just the still shots.
His E-mail : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
His Shool E-Mail : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
eBay Account : xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Source [2] [3] Pgdn963 21:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
So? Burned thru 21:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. Exploitative journalism at its worst. We do not need to follow suit. — Resurgent insurgent 2007-04-22 23:17 Z
"They're not disruptive," she said. "Those students are withdrawn and isolated, and even though we see that as a problem, because it's not disruptive, often they slip through the cracks."
Actually, it fits many of the occasions where he would just say nothing or behave in a withdrawn manner. Although in the period leading up to the harrassment and shootings disruption applies but I think what the expert says applies to earlier periods of bullying such is highschool where instances that might have provoked action on his part occurred but there are not reports of violence or disruption from him during that period. According to the expert this is an example of "internalizing" depression, rather than acting out. In this way, such people "slip through the cracks." W.C. 13:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
"Korean society — Confucian, patriarchal, and steeped in pride, dignity and the importance of family — has long viewed mental illness as a taboo topic best kept in the closet." [4] W.C. 22:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
If you have references for what you've just written maybe you should add them to the article. If not, others may still find the wording used in NPR useful in giving a context to how such a person managed to "slip through the cracks".W.C. 13:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
No mention in this article of the South Korean film Oldboy and the "Hammer pose"? Even Washington Post, TIME, NYTimes covered this. Do a Google search. According to Sky News, detectives claim Cho watched the film repeatedly just prior to the massacre. ( http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1261402,00.html). Even in the Oldboy Wikipedia article, the Virginia Tech massacre is mentioned. I think it deserves a mention here too. It's a highly sourced point, not OR. -- Naus 02:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Here's an article from The Washington Post that discusses the results of Cho's autopsy. According to information from the article, the state examiner's office authorized the release of Cho's body to his family. Here's the citation: Rucker, P. & Spinner, J. (2007, April 23). No Abnormalities Found in Cho's Brain. The Washington Post, p. A09. Retrieved April 23, 2007. lwalt 05:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The point in question: Cho Seung-hui, the way most news services are reporting his name; or Seung Cho, the way the person himself used his name. Which ordering should this article use? Add your vote here. Consensus goes to the majority. GarryKosmos 06:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
He lived in the USA for many, many years and I'm sure he used the American custom of personal name first, family name after! To put his family name first is quite pedantic. -- Sonjaaa 09:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
1 : an American Indian of North America or South America 2 : a native or inhabitant of North America or South America 3 : a citizen of the United States 4 : AMERICAN ENGLISH
Obviously they do not have to be all of the following.
Main Entry: in·hab·i·tant Pronunciation: in-'ha-b&-t&nt Function: noun one that occupies a particular place regularly, routinely, or for a period of time <inhabitants of large cities> <the tapeworm is an inhabitant of the intestine>
Also, there are countless numbers of permanent residents like Seung-hui Cho who are in the United States military. They represent America, therefore are Americans.
Secondgen 11:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the NY Times calls him Cho Seung-Hui or Mr. Cho. [1] I won't tell you what I've been calling him. pointlessforest 19:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The name Cho Seung-hui is accurate. What needs to be fixed is the date. The incident occurred not in the year 2007, but in the year 4340 of the Dangun-giwon Dynasty. — Tdadamemd 05:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
it should be Cho Seung-hui, think about Kim Jong-il-- Lerdthenerd 11:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Istillcandream 23:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that the family is known to prefer "Seung-hui Cho," it seems like the news media organizations are changing their minds about the presentation of his name.
We may have to hold another discussion and possibly have the article moved. WhisperToMe 01:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I think a bold move would be justified, but perhaps another quick poll on this question given the changing circumstances (i.e. the switch by the media) is the best way to go? I have a feeling many editors who voted for Cho Seung-hui earlier might change their votes now and thus we should start from scratch. Or someone with the authority to move this could just step in and do so. Thoughts?-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This is my first comment, but I would wonder if it's possible to have a double listing of the "name" chosen, so that if someone looks up the "name" in either the Korean style, or the American style, they would be able to see the subject at both places? If not, then maybe a note could be added to the place where the name ISN'T located, pointing to where the subject "name" is located, and how it is spelled. Starbright1 05:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Since I posted a message on the original author's discussion page, which I proceeded to ignore, I will broach the topic here
AFAIC, there's no justifiable reason for this article to have a "naming" section. Wikipedia has a Korean name template for this very purpose.
{{Korean name|[[Cho (Korean name)|Cho]]}}
gives you:
This is a Korean name; the family name is Cho, and, unlike Western family names, comes first when pronouncing full names.
We don't need a whole paragraph talking about possible variations on a name. It adds nothing to this article. Delete it. Bueller 007 16:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Your point is credited, but this kid grew up in America from age 8 on. Do we have a source that confirms that he indeed went by his last name, Cho, instead of his first name Seung-Hui? We have to remember that this guy is way more of a product of America than he is of South Korea. I think its severely misleading to write his name as Cho Seung-hui, this only perpetuates the idea that Seung-Hui is a foreigner and that his actions stem from non-American influences. In fact if you look at the plays he wrote, you'll notice that he himself prefers to go by Seung Cho. Moreover, naming him by his last name first contradicts previous wiki articles. Refer to "gang lu" for example, in that case Lu is the surname, but is listed after his first name, Gang.
Wikipedia's Korean name template is for KOREANS not Korean Americans. The vast vast majority of Asian-Americans in the US list their first names first, proceeded by their last name. This is a HUGE issue guys, the media has already played up the xenophobic, foreign, outsider image to the max, I don't think wiki should follow in that direction.
Now that the press is debating the naming order, I say we should keep the section. WhisperToMe 02:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a very big deal, by referring to him as Cho you are giving his whole family a bad name, his name was Seung-Hui, with his family name of Cho, to keep referring to him as Cho you are referring to his whole family. All references of Seung-Hui, should be called Seung-Hui, not Cho. The media has it WRONG.
I have been removing then as per WP:Flags whats other user opinion on this . I mean X place , USA adds no information, this article is not about the american flag and doesnt need to be included ( Gnevin 19:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC))
The first two references cited are in Chinese. Isn't that strange? He has nothing to do with China. And I don't think Chinese reports are suitable in the reference section.-- Bicttobuct 05:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Bicttobuct: Koreans in Korea have official names written in Chinese characters. These Chinese characters are recorded together with other vital information (birth order etc.) in the family's official registration documents.
In newspapers and other informal writing, names are usually written phonetically in hangul script rather than the more complex Chinese characters. By contrast, Chinese language media are forced by linguistic convention to use the actual Chinese characters. Sometimes, the characters used will be based on guesswork, but if the subject is reasonably prominent, considerable efforts are made to establish the authentic characters from witnesses or official documents. This is why Chinese-language documents are usually the best source to verify the written form of Korean names. Note that the standard for Wikipedia is that material should be verifiable, not (necessarily) true.
Why do Chinese characters matter? Chinese characters matter because they impart meaning that is not clear from the phonetic representation. The actual choice of Chinese characters is a significant indicator of cultural choices by the parents. Recognizing this, the South Korean Foreign Ministry in fact announced the specific Chinese characters constituting Cho's name, but it is quite possible that this official announcement is deliberately wrong. WikiFlier 21:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe the section about his "Preparation" should be amplified to include the fact he went to the extra, lethal length of using hollow-point bullets and multiple-round clips. Right now, the Preparation section mentions that he purchased two guns, but his choice of ammo shows an even greater degree of pre-planned malice. Here is a good link to include as a source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18209746 71.121.135.67 05:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
.22 caliber Walther P22 and 9 mm Glock 19 handguns — both expensive, accurate guns favored by gun enthusiasts and cops" Bought first gun from : "thegunsource.com" Purchased second at: "Roanoke Firearms"
"This afternoon, NBC received a package they believe was sent to the network by Cho...It appears that the suspect took the time to mail a package in between his shooting spree—-showing a degree of cold-blooded planning." ( http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3052278&page=1)
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cho_Seung-hui) Evaulator 14:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that we ought to point out the fact that some of the pics from Cho's Murder Manifesto were actually taken during his killing spree? I mean, if that isn't Notable, then what in the world is? NBC News, Dateline, the Today Show, and several other news outlets (to name a few) have reported that it is clear (some say, has been 'proven') that the pics of Cho taken in his dormitory room, in which he is dressed in the khaki vest carrying ammo and the black baseball cap turned backwards, were taken just after he killed (assassinated, imho) the first two students in their dorm, and immediately prior to mailing his 'Manifesto' after which he continued his rampage by shooting all of the students in/around Norris.
The pic we have here on WIKI of Cho holding both guns is one such photo that was taken during the killing spree -- making it doubly Infamous (and Notable) .... as it is both the exact image that the students/victims saw coming after them that day AND it was actually taken during the horrible act. I cannot think of ANY other instance in which we have a PHOTOGRAPHIC RECORD of a killer actually committing his crimes other than the video from Columbine, and this one is unique for a couple of reasons. Therefore, because of its Notability and being utterly Unique, I think it bears mentioning (perhaps under the caption - maybe in a section/paragraph?) in the article on Cho. Maybe even within the section on his 'Murder Manifesto' ... since his video diary includes a section that he recorded during the murders ... in which he said that "you" made "him" do it and 'it didn't have to happen' (my opinion: 'whatever, Jerk'). Any other ideas or opinions on this? 172.146.142.247 20:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Bueller -- what I meant by "During" was in the MIDDLE of the killing spree
which is why I expanded on my comments and specified that they were taken BETWEEN the first shootings at AJ and the second at Norris.
Additionally, the fact that CERTAIN PICS/VIDEO were taken "During" the killing spree - IN BETWEEN the first and second murder sites - HAS been conclusively proven ... they used the Time Stamps on the Pics, the Video, the DVD/Computer Disks, and the Forensic Investigation of Cho's computer to Conclusively Determine WHEN these were taken, and the pic of Cho dressed in the Vest, Backwards Baseball cap, Black T-shirt, fingerless gloves, and holding the guns WAS taken just after Cho killed Hilsher and Clarke and immediately prior to him mailing the 'manifesto' and subsequently shooting his victims at Norris. If you will look at the main article for the 'Virginia Tech Massacre', it already references these facts. We just don't have them cited/referenced correctly here on this page. (And they should be - especially for continuity). Can someone with EDIT CAPABILITY please correct and update this to match the main article? Thanx 172.132.29.212 15:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Ok - I will try to find some on the Net. I am certain of my information however, since our local news ran a story/update on it and SPECIFIED that the time stamps they were referencing were FROM THE COMPUTER/DVD, making a point to say that it made the pictures/video from that day/time "all the more chilling" .... Additionally, this fact was discussed at length on 3 separate Talk Radio programs I listen to - oops, I mean Four. If I get a chance, I'll try to find a transcript online. I have S-L-O-W dial-up, so I can't do it quickly or easily as opposed to others. Thanx 172.132.29.212 15:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
IIRC, the timestamps that you're mentioning was already said by MSNBC to be the time that Cho was manipulating the data (i.e. moving the files around onto his comp, burning em to the DVD), but not specifically the exact times he shot the pictures. There wasn't any specific evidence to the fact that he took the pictures between the murders AFAIK. Also, I'd make it a point not to get my forensic information from anywhere aside from the investigators on something like this.
I don't think that the Forensic Team has made any kind of public statement *personally* anywhere (I would love to know if they have and I somehow overlooked it, but so far, this is not something I've found) ---- instead, the findings of the Forensic Team have been reported by various media outlets. Now, I will agree that this is not the ideal source of information - particularly since there have been a number of items that have been erroneously reported in this investigation so far ..... however, these errors have become plain enough when the *majority* of the media has presented the correct data/information and only a very few have persisted with faulty stories. I only brought this up after watching several news organizations discuss it at length and point out the difference between the time stamps for mailing and those included on the digital photos (the timestamps both for capture and uploading to disk) as well as the proof contained in the associated video where Cho is sweating, panting, and visibly altered (in stark contrast to the rest of his entire 'package' taken over a period of time) in the time-stamped period between the AJ killings and the Norris Hall killings. If not for those numerous news commentaries built around this very issue, I never would have mentioned this. 172.132.29.212 16:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Article describes Cho as a "mass murderer," but the definition of murder precludes insanity -- an insane person is not capable of murder because he or she does not have a sound mind. All of the descriptions of Cho in childhood and in recent years outline a person is was mentally ill. So, like John Hinckley, Jr., if Cho is was mentally ill then he was not capable of the crime of murder. The source linked to the term mass murder also describes it as someone who is guilty of murdering many people, but it too stands on the definition of murder as a crime committed by someone who is sane. The links to that article likewise do not reference verifiable sources. 69.255.0.91 23:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
This is a fair defense, and one I'm inclined to accept in not tagging Cho as a murderer/criminal. WatchingYouLikeAHawk 01:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I do not have the ability to EDIT, so if someone who does could please correct this, I would appreciate it. As was verified on NPR just this morning, the State of VIRGINIA currently does NOT require an Instant Background Check in order to purchase a gun. This requirement was part of the proposed legislation to change the current gun laws, but it has NOT YET been passed. When Cho purchased his gun(s), all he was required to do was to show THREE FORMS OF ID: Cho presented his State of VA Driver's License, his Legal Resident (aka 'green') Card, and (unbelievably!) a Pre-printed CHECK w/his name and address on it. This has been reported/verified by the store (Blacksburg Gun Shop), the Chief Investigator (Blacksburg Police), the ATF, and numerous other news sources who have been running side stories on gun laws/gun control related to this incident (and how easy it was for Cho to LEGALLY get those guns). Of particular interest, is the issue of Cho's Documented MENTAL ILLNESS, which would have PREVENTED him from legally obtaining a Gun (in those states that require a Background Check - of which Virginia is NOT one) ... IF Virginia would have had this law on the books at the time -- an Instant Background Check would have PREVENTED Cho from buying the guns. Since this issue is white-hot right now, it makes this erroneous statement all the more troubling ... and it needs to be removed (no matter if it was incorrectly reported previously). For further evidence, on Sunday 4/22, the tv news show 'Face the Nation' addressed this very issue, describing how ironic and sad it was that Virginia had failed to pass legislation requiring an Instant Background Check. Can someone please remove the statement and correct this? Thanx! 172.132.29.212 15:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Thanks for your comment, because after doing a cursory GOOGLE, I found that this statement is most definitely 'in dispute'.
First, on Google, I am finding statments that are what I would term 'second hand' that say that VA DOES require an instant Background Check. The 'first-hand' info (like a pamphlet of the state gun laws) SO FAR, says that Gun DEALERS have to pass a Background Check when BUYING guns for sale (a bit different, and certainly very confusing to those not familiar) - so I am wondering if this is the source of the confusion. Then, I found a few sources that say the Blacksburg gun shop owner said Cho 'passed the instant background check' - yet, none of these are first-hand, and the shop owner was NOT present when Cho purchased the gun. So far, ALL of these 'reports' are at least 5 days old. None are recent. What really confuses me is that I listened to 2 HOURS of Sean Hannity on the radio talking about what a shame it was that VA did not have this Background Check rqmnt in place (and Hannity is very, very careful w/his information) -- a transcript is not yet available, since this was w/in just days ago. Furthermore, I watched the rep from the BRADY CENTER FOR GUN CONTROL all last week and this weekend and at the END of Last Week and through the Weekend, the Brady Rep CHANGED HIS STORY from saying that the Background Check was Fallible because it didn't show Cho's Mental Illness (Court order to seek counseling), to his now saying that 'the state of VA needs to require a Background Check because they failed to pass that law and it is vital that they do it and that furthermore, if VA HAD that law on the books, Cho would not have been able to buy a gun'.
Now, that perplexes me ---- what is going on here? I don't want to report false information - either way - and my only interest is that the FACTS are being properly referenced here. Does anyone have an answer for these discrepancies -- or know why they keep changing their story(ies)? 172.132.29.212 17:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Ok - I found something that MAY end up being the explanation for the discrepancy (although it still may be that there is confusion about what transpired at the Blacksburg gun shop):
it seems that the current laws of VA would NOT have req. a Background Check for the 22cal gun purch. on the Net.
Maybe that is the issue - different rules for the two different guns? I'm still not entirely sure, but it's a start. 172.132.29.212 17:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Right, that's what I'm saying. The INTERNET rpts state that the BLACKSBURG gun shop ran a Background Check, but the Brady Center Rep is NOW saying that one was not done --- when I researched this on the NET, the only reason I find for this discrepancy is the FACT that the INTERNET GUN PURCHASE (NOT the Blacksburg gun shop) would NOT have required a background check (and nowhere can I find any mention that one was one for the purchase of the 22cal on the NET), and perhaps the BRADY CENTER REP either MEANT that he was referencing the 22cal purchase, OR he was confused by the Two DIFFERENT requirements under the VA law (as the current VA law does NOT require a background check for FFL gun owners at a gun OR for internet/mail order purchases). 172.132.29.212 18:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
I think we should have a full transcript of everything he said in the videos he sent to NBC (that was released). Malamockq 21:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if that is okay on Wikisource WhisperToMe 21:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm actually having trouble with the transcripts that NBC released in the innaccurate media reports article. They say that he's saying "Jesus loved to crucify me. You loved inducing cancer into my head." Off the top of my head I can only be sure of what I placed in bold. When you listen to the video, it sounds like he could likely be saying "You just loved to crucify me" Considering that the idea that he's anti-Christin is premature and does not fit with any of his quotes except for this one which might have been wrongfully quoted, I think it's a good idea to give people a resource of his quotes, but I think that it should be noted that the transcripts given by NBC may have been incorrect. Youngidealist 23:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This article once had a pronunciation audio file. Someone deleted it, I suspect to deemphasize Cho's "foreignness". However, the fact is (and facts are important to Wikipedia) that Cho was a Korean national. Seung Hui Cho is thus a romanization of his real name, which is written in Korean characters and pronounced in a certain way. This is not merely an academic point -- some news organizations are pronouncing his name like "Joe". The Delete Police are doing us no favors by deleting stuff for no good reason and without discussion. What do people think about restoring pronunciation, perhaps in the "name" section. Soda80 02:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
"Prior to committing the killings, Cho is said to have possessed three (and most likely more) general characteristics common among school shooters: (1) Cho did not simply "snap". The disturbing manifesto he created was made over a period of at least six days, according to PDF and CD dates investigators were able to uncover, and he bought the guns used in the killings several weeks before the massacre took place. (2) Cho was considered a threat by others, even though he never overtly threatened anyone. (3) Fellow students and teachers were concerned by Cho's behavior. Many students found his writing disturbingly dark and overly angry. [34]"
This is biased and is not encyclopedic. The source given is a piece of commentary, not factual information.
http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html
Upon understanding this, all is clear.
STOP SIMPLIFYING THINGS. It doesn't matter what you call him. He murdered 30 people. The media now todays has to give simple labels to things so people can easily categorize people as "martyr" or "terrorist" or "revolutionary". The President and his administration have people thinking of black and white, you're either good or evil, patriot or terrorist, if you're not with us you're against us. It doesn't matter what you call him. It never will. The term "terrorist" gets thrown around entirely too much today and is a cute word for people to use for anyone who is "evil". Terrorist is a simple word and has no relevance to the situation. Things aren't always black and white. Calling him something is just a waste of time. And it does not matter what religion he is to consider what to call him. If people continue to simplify people and just label them then you play into stereotypes and ignorance. Labeling people is subjective and is pointless in this article. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, one mans martyr is another's heretic.-- 68.193.135.2 21:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Given that we all know now that Cho was a Christian and grow up as a Christian and made inferences in his Video to him being like Jesus
"Thanks to you, I die, Like Jesus, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people" He also made inferences of being a Martyr, in the christian sense.
Should we label him as a Christian Terrorist? or a Korean Terrorist? Asian Terrorist? Immigrant Terrorist? or just a Terrorist?
==> Please post links to your supports that Cho is a christian. No major network has posted anything remotely resembling that.
If Cho had any affiliation with the Muslim Religion, you can be assured that the media today would immediately jump on his religion and automatically label him as a potential terrorist or Muslim terrorist and focus on his religion. But because Cho was a Christian and not from the Middle East or any of the Muslim countries, the term "Terror" is not even mentioned nor his religion questioned.
It seems like the term "Terror" is only reserved for any of the 1.4 billion Muslims. And when ever any one of those 1.4 Muslims commits a crime they are immediately affiliated with their religion (painting the impression that it is the religion that made them do it).
On the other hand, you can have columbine shooting, Oklahoma bombing, the Jeffery Dahmers, Ted Kazinski, and on and on, but no one will ever associate their religion with them. Why the double standard???
Let us realize and learn that "Terror has no religion, no ethnicity, no nationality, no race, and no boundaries" Cho Terrorized thousands of people and by definition he is a terrorist.
A terrorist is someone whose primary goal in their actions is to incite terror. As far as I can tell, his primary goal was to kill people. Titanium Dragon 00:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think saying he is a Christian is speculation. On the other hand, he might have been raised as a Christian. (Which is a big difference to me) Istillcandream 02:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Titanium Dragon has a lot to learn about what being a Christian is. Just because you CLAIM to BE something doesn't make you one! By the way they live, is how you tell whether or not a person is a Christian, or just someone pretending to be a Christian. And it's disgusting for you to suggest that Christians, or ANYONE, "should take pride" in murderers!!! Please be more grown-up in your response to topics here!!! Starbright1 06:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
He is a martyr or revolutionary. Unfortunately revolutionary has ties with radicalism which has ties with terrorism. MSM views it all the same, plus terrorist is a charged word. 67.11.138.50 08:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
He's a terrorist because he felt he represented an idea that would live on, he felt he was creating a spectacle that would get a lot of attention and teach society a lesson they would never forget, his actions were calculated to incite the most fear (the level of attention he is getting is really a reflection of our fear of a mass murderer who sets his own time to die), he knew he was setting an example for copycats, and he was issuing a call to action in a way that would guarantee that society would give in to his demands. (Being a terrorist does not require that you act in the name of a religion. And Cho is not a martyr because he did not die at the hands of others who were persecuting him.)
Statements from those involved in the dispute
Statement: A few users continue to remove Category:Korean Americans from the Cho Seung-hui page. Cho was born in South Korea but legally emigrated to the United States at the age of 8. He and his family were permanent, legal residents of the U.S., and there is no indication that he ever returned to Korea after the age of 8, except perhaps (though I'm not sure even of this) for brief visits. (Edit: This article impiles they never returned at all after 1992: [13]) He was raised in suburban Virginia, attended U.S. public schools, and was attending a U.S. university at the time of his death. In other words, he did not live on an embassy compound or was not otherwise isolated from mainstream U.S. society. As one would expect of someone who became a member of a culture at the age of 8, he spoke the culture's dominant language, in this case English, as a native speaker would. In other words, during the period of time in which a person absorbs and assimilates a culture -- in his case, from the age of 8 until the age of 23 -- he lived only in the United States.
Those who want to remove this category seem to be certain that one can only be a Korean American if one is a U.S. citizen. While there is certainly a legal definition of "American" that is an equivalent to "U.S. citizen" for the purposes of voting and obtaining a passport, the term "Korean American" is not a legal term (it holds no legal weight since evidently you can't be a dual U.S.-Korea passport holder), but rather it's a cultural one. The term implies a sense of belonging to two cultures, frequently experienced by first-generation, " Generation 1.5" (which Cho was), and second-generation immigrants. The confusion about this term is between those who see it somehow as a strict legal definition requiring one to be a U.S. citizen rather than a legal, permanent resident (which is not a widely accepted use of the term), and those who see Korean American as a term in the broader sense, meaning one who lives legally and for the long-term in the United States while being of Korean heritage or birth. Previous discussions of this question, in an attempt to find resolution of the matter, are here and here. Question: Should this category be allowed to remain in the article? Moncrief 13:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Have any sources specifically say he is not "Korean American"? I've only seen him described as a resident alien. The way that a term like "Korean American" is used, it doesn't always necessitate US citizenship, and it looks like Moncrief has provided sources to support that. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 00:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Just my two cents, but it seems to me that "nationality-American" (almost?) always denotes second-generation (or later) immigrants. (e.g. Amy is an African-American descendant of African immigrants, Bob is an Irish-American descendant of Irish immigrants, etc.) Since there is no legal definition of the label, doesn't the answer rely on whether the subject self-applies it? Since the definition of "Korean American" is contentious, and in the absence of evidence for or against self-application, I think Category:Korean immigrants to the United States alone is more accurate and appropriate. Demong 01:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll leave it to others to determine whether they want to try and make use of some of the initial details here [18] at this time, or wait until the full reports are released and digested by the press. W.C. 22:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a screen capture of the text from Cho's manifesto. [19] -- Uthbrian ( talk) 03:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I realise wiki is an encyclopedia of everything but many believe that the reason these school shooters take out a whole bunch of people with them is for the notoriety, the infamy, many news broadcasters have wisely decided not to air any info on the shooter. If we limit the info released about the shooter released so that they achieve no infamy on notoriety it may stave off future large massacres. Thats why i believe he should be removed from wiki why give this man who did something so aweful exactly what he wants?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stupidknowledge24 ( talk • contribs).
Perhaps it is hazardous to have so much attention given to Cho, and I agree that it very well may contribute to more mass murderers in the future. Even Cho himself was apparently influenced somewhat by the Comlumbine killers, and there could be a disasterous chain effect. But, I give you another possibility -- people might come to use wikipedia to learn about the guy and the case and use that info to prevent such a thing from happening again. "Knowledge is power," yadda yadda yadda.... It's practical to have a sort of gathering place where all viable info on Cho is compiled so that the case can be studied. Although Congress would also have studies on this and could legislate and regulate to make things work, we don't have the same informational resources as Congress does, so wikipedia might just be the best we have. J.J. Bustamante 13:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know where to get the full text (or as much of it as possible) of his 1800-word manifesto? Christopher Connor 20:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The page didn't say anything about his death.
http://asherheimermann.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/2nd-killer/ This is something that we should do more work on? 67.36.86.19 21:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I can't find a dictionary that uses the word "railing" as a verb. I don't know what journalist came up with the word, but i think it shoud go. I'll give some time for others here to respond before I remove it from the NBC contents section Youngidealist 05:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
"[Middle English railen, from Old French railler, to tease, joke, from Old Provençal ralhar, to chat, joke, from Vulgar Latin *ragulāre, to bray, from Late Latin ragere.]"
To all those that contributed to this artice: Thank you! It is much more informative, tasteful and intelligent than any coverage I have seen in the news media. 24.215.145.136 06:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
After I read through the article, I see that unconfirmed diagnoses and POV statements are creeping into this piece that speculated Cho's mental illness. Can everyone refrain from introducing speculation from real and "armchair" psychiatrists, psychologists and media outlets to keep the article of this information? To my knowledge, I know of no reports that present a confirmed mental illness condition suffered by Cho.
...from the Release of material section
Some psychiatrists who reviewed the materials believe that Cho's rantings offer little insight into the mental illness that may have triggered his rampage. Dr. Michael Wellner stated, "These videos do not help us understand [Cho]. They distort him. He was meek. He was quiet. This is a PR tape of him trying to turn himself into a Quentin Tarantino character."
This information does not appear to have nothing to do with the direct release of the packaged by NBC. This analysis was probably done by psychiatrists who either theorized his mental capacity from information from news reports or were asked by media outlets to give an opinion on Cho's mental condition. In anything, this part belongs in the Reaction to writings section.
...from the Behavior as a young child section
Cho's maternal grandaunt, Kim Yang-soon, described Cho as "cold" and a cause of family concern as an 8-year-old. According to Kim—who met him only twice—the boy was extremely shy and rarely talked unless prompted. He was otherwise considered "well-behaved." After arriving in the U.S., Cho's parents told the elderly aunt he may have autism, a developmental disability marked by profound social isolation and delayed speech acquisition. The aunt said she knew something was wrong because she heard frequent updates about Cho's older sister, but little news about Cho.
"Korean culture does not recognize mental illness,” according to UCLA's Kyeyoung Park, an anthropologist and professor of Korean Studies. “People do not recognize it or get help. There is a huge stigma.” Consequently, and because the confession video showed no indication of autistic behavior, this supposed early "autism" diagnosis has been thrown into doubt. Kim later clarified that Cho's parents only recently offered autism as an explanation for their son's behaviors, sharing the revelation in a recent New Year's call. An autism diagnosis could not be verified with Cho's U.S. family, nor is it clear whether it was ever used by U.S. school authorities ("no records show such a diagnosis"). "Relatives thought he might be a mute. Or mentally ill," reported the New York Times.18 Cho's childhood and later behaviors may signal selective mutism, a rare anxiety disorder sometimes mistaken for autism in children. Selective mutism has been linked (in rare cases) to later psychosis and rampage killings.
To address his emotional problems, Cho's parents would take him to church. He was bullied in his Christian youth group, especially by wealthy members.
Most of this text does not belong in the article, since much some of it appears to be original research that adds nothing about Cho's behavior during childhood. From what I see, only the first paragraph describes Cho's behavior as a young child, since this info comes from a firsthand account of a relative. If any of the other information could be verified/validated, the rest of it could be included in a new section about how the South Korean culture views mental illness, but even that is a stretch and out of scope for this article, since this type of information applies generally to a group of people and not specifically to Cho.
---
My other concern here is that some of this information has been recycled and placed in the article in news format (e.g., Kim met Cho in fifth grade, attending the same classes and riding the school bus together. There were only three Korean students in the school. Back then, he said, nobody hated Cho and he "was recognised by friends as a boy of knowledge... a good dresser who was popular with the girls." Cho kept a distance from others because he chose to do so. Kim added that "I only have good memories about him."). lwalt 14:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The main page should display warnings about bias. Since there is no diagnosis of autism, it is not the disease and, since it is a very misunderstood disease (which can't be "eliminated" the way "Rock Autism" claims) -- this is an example of the article's speculative bias and lack of factual matter. Please place an NPOV or other appropriate tag on the page. 70.5.81.28 13:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The photo has been re-cropped to remove the second person, but it still is not sourced. The newly cropped image has also had the name tag removed from view, the original name displayed as Hui. It appears to me that someone found a picture of an Asian soldier and decided to post it... I recommend immediate delete. Pissedpat 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Edit By Nathan Fluet webmaster of abuse-of-power.org : The way to discern the authenticity of a photo is not by looking at a name tag please look at these enlarged comparisons
http://abuse-of-power.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=314 of the image alongside 2 known photos of Cho from NBC there are common scars and both the eyes, nose and brow all match the eyebrows don't but again you don't use hair to match a subject you use facial structure and this my friends is Cho.
Abuseofpower
10:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow you cant even click on a link and look at the comparison huh so you know i have even shown this comparison to a South Korean and he said it is the same person too, this isn't a round eye seeing all Asians as looking the same as i said there is even a common scar. Abuseofpower 12:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
That is a good picture to prove my method of comparing facial structure, in this picture we see almond shaped eyes relatively evenly tapered at each side in the picture in question and in all known picture of Cho the eyes are wider on the inside edge and tapers on the outside edge, next this mans brow is not near as pronounced as the brow of Cho but the man in the picture in question has the same structure to his brow as Cho, next is to compare the space between the eyes, and then the space from the inner edge of the eye to the side of the bridge of the nose, next comes measurement of the length and width of the nose followed by scar identification and comparison. All of these comparisons show this picture in question is in fact Cho, when you have a arguement slightly more scientific I would look forward to hearing it. Abuseofpower 12:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hairlines can be easily modified as the eyebrows can look at the Virginia tech ID picture and the NBC pictures his eyebrows are longer in the ID this proves nothing are you going to say the ID picture isn't Cho now? And if you want i can add Cho's ID to the comparison as the scar is visible in that picture too as well as the marine picture. And to answer your question I grew up with all Laotian, Vietnamese and South Koreans my best friends back home were all of those nationalities and I used to speak Laotian fairly well, you want to paint me as a ignorant person who thinks all Asians look alike the fact of the matter is that i can tell most Asian peoples nationality by looking at there face because each country has its own unique facial characteristics, foreheads, brows, eye shape, cheekbone structure etc... for you to attempt to say that you cant match these available facial features including the shape and size of the nose, the outline of which is clearly visible through the balaclava is ridiculous do you think that every Asian persons eyes are the same distance apart and that every one of there noses is the same length,eyes the same width and shape, and that they all have matching scars on there brows lets be serious here.. Abuseofpower 13:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't worry your not, but your arguement is no good hair grows back fast and the time it would take, even for the picture he has the longest hair in would be a few months from a high and tight, also his mental illness was not diagnosed until 2005 and he is 23 so that wouldn't have been a factor in joining the services if he say joined at 18, if i did my math right he started at VT when he was 19. If he served only a year or less I doubt you would see the line, after many years of the same cut maybe, but not after 1. By the way i received my Honorable Discharge in February of 2006. Also do you know of any higher quality copies of the NBC photos because I will gladly debunk my own theory if they show things differently than the slightly pixelated ones.
Abuseofpower
16:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)