This was in the intro of this article and I think it's fucked up. The evidence is showing us that bullying and social rejection may have contributed to Cho's reaction. Fox, the source used for this is not titling him "The" question mark killer, but rather "A question mark killer" is a more appropriate description of the source. I think that the person who put this sentence up was ignorant of the fact that using such a title will further insight reaction by careless peers of 'loners' everywhere, by using suspicion as an excuse to be even more violent towards them. Somebody please take it down. -youngidealist 68.231.200.13 04:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone removed the line under the preparation section stating that Cho's experience with firearms is unknown. This is very relevant, and until more information surfaces on the specifics, it needs to remain in place. Hopefully anyone who does know this will be able to update the information. I've put it back. If more details are be uncovered, replace the line with the information.
Tymothy
15:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I replaced it. It's a couple of days old; surprised that no one added it yet.
Chickentoo
17:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Guys I think I messed up the works cited page
It's pretty obvious that Cho was very seriously mentally ill. As a psychology student, the first thing that came to my mind after the release of his media package was that his history of behavior prior to the shootings were characteristic of schizotypal disorder comorbid with paranoid personality disorder. His odd speech patterns, extreme isolationist tendencies (far beyond the usual "loner" behavior), odd beliefs (imaginary girlfriend that he nicknamed "Jelly" and who called him "Spanky"), expressions of victimisation, and delusions of grandeur ("dying like Jesus Christ") seem characteristic of this. Although he does fit into the typical "spree killer" profile of being a angry male loner, his expressions of those tendencies really go to pathological extremes.
I've worked in the U of M aggression research labs so I get internal emails, and I've seen some of my profs parry around paranoid schizophrenia too. I'm also not surprised that some news outlits have said that he was diagnosed with with an autistic spectrum disorder when he first came into the country.
I'm surprised that the mental illness aspect of the killer hasn't been discussed more. In the aftermath of this tragedy, everyone is asking "Why?", baffled at the source of his rage, incoherance, and delusions of grandeur. His actions are obviously inexcusable, but the man was also very, very ill--a fact recognized for years by many of those around him--yet he was not recieving treatment. 75.46.52.18 12:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Via NYTWhen they went to the United States, they told them it was autism, said Kim, 85, adding that the family had constant worries about Cho.
Here's another article that says he was diagnosed as autistic soon after the family's arrival in the US. BloodDoll 23:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Just remember though, you are/were talking about an 8 year old. Schizophrenia is not going to be high on your differential diagnosis for that age group. That said, at the time these event were perpetrated, starting in '05, 22years old is just about average age for the onset of schizophrenia, and to me, this guy is a classic paranoid type schizophrenic.-- JSteuernagle 03:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date
Ema Zee 04:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
It has been mentioned several times that the serial numbers were filed off of the guns he used. Don't guns have serial numbers in more than one location? 141.156.166.127 09:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I am the exact likness of cho except 2 or 3 things.
1. I'm not asian. 2. I really did have a girlfriend back then 3. I did not have down syndrome.
Other than that I was like him being treated like crap as the lowliest person on earth. In Jr high crap was treated better than me. Nerds even picked on me.
I hit puberty in highschool and for some reason I was #1 in highschool.
When I sat and ate. everyone wanted to sit with me. I never understood my childhood.
I'm really surprised that this hasn't come up in the media so far. Here's what we know:
-The two plays, "Richard McBeef" and "Mr. Brownstone" both featured adolescents who were molested by an older authority figure (step-father and teacher, respectively).
-In part of the video, he says "For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you fucked, I did it for them…"
-In another part, he says "You wanna rape us John Mark Karrs? You wanna rape us Debra Lafaves? Fuck you." (this, by the way, is almost identical to the part in Richard McBeef where he calls his stepfather "Catholic priest" and "Michael Jackson".
Given all of this, it seems pretty likely that he was either molested or had for some reason come to think that he had been. Has this possibility come up anywhere? In fact, the media silence about it almost suggests that there's some sort of ongoing investigation and that's why they're not commenting on it... Baligant 02:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)Baligant
I heard the news report that he was a sadomasochist, can anyone prove this?
"Cho had intimidated female students by photographing their legs " Evaulator 14:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that a very interesting and important fact about the character of Mr. Brownstone is that he is a rapist. Each of the other three characters, his presumable students, all say that he raped them. This gives a lot of insight into the type of life Cho Seung-hui was possibly living at home, especially when you consider that the idea of molestation by an older male figure is prevalent in both of these horrifying scripts. -- Invisibleinkling 05:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah but he could just of been a basket case chump. I would not jump to the conclusion thet he had other Demons to blame.
Regardless of whether or not you can draw any conclusions from it, the fact that that element is in the play (and mentioned repeatedly) can still be addressed. We shouldn't glaze over that horrific fact about the play just because it is particularly distrubing. If we mention that he is a math teacher (which is only stated in one line), then we should mention that he is a rapist, which is mentioned repeatedly.-- Invisibleinkling 11:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is meant to distribute accurate information, and a large part of accuracy depends on what information is displaid and what is withheld. At this time wikipedia does not disply a large part of the scripts written by Cho, and in order to present accurate infromation about these scripts, this item should not be ignored. There needs to be no conclusions drawn, but simply omitting the primary offense of Mr. Brownstone in Cho's script creates a factual blindspot. The rape of the three students in the play is addressed 4 times, and the math teacher is mentioned once. Why is it left out of the description?
I agree that the fact the students in the play claim that Mr. Brownstone raped them on several occasions is an important point and should be included. To be original research it would have to say something like 'The students in the play also claim that Mr. Brownstone raped them on several occasions, making the sexual abuse of the young by an elder male figure in a position of responsibility a recurring theme in Cho's work.' I have changed it.( DH 17:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC))
My initial reaction when first reading the play was not that Cho was referring to actual sexual abuse. I've just read the play a second time and I can see how it could go either way. The term "ass-raped" can also mean taken advantage of in general. I don't know how many times that I've heard kids say they were ass-raped until they bled by an extremely hard test or some sort of punishment. I understand that most have taken the words literally, but I wonder how many of them are familiar with current slang. The best source I could think of that mentions popular slang was urban dictionary, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ass+raped. I know that we'll never know what he actually meant, but I don't think we should make assumptions in the article. 76.187.184.203 00:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that he didn’t intent to portray Mr. Brownstone as a rapist literally. I see it that he figuratively meant that Mr. Brownstone raped them. By treating them unfairly, and since they are powerless to their teacher, it was like rape. Sheaton319 00:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm fairly certain that this section needs some significant changes regarding Cho's professors. From what I have read in the news, Professor Nikki Giovanni had him removed from her class and from that point on Lucinda Roy took the initiative to teach Cho on her own. Can someone please confirm this and add those changes? I'm not feeling up to it unfortunately, just wanted to bring it to attention. In the mean time I've removed the uncited sentence that says it was Roy who had him removed from her class (it was Giovanni). -- itistoday ( Talk) 14:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The name on his speeding ticket is Seung H. Cho, which must be his legal name. He signed the ticket Seung Cho. The car was a Kia but model was not legible. Ticket was shown on CBS. 141.156.166.127 09:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.planetblacksburg.com/2007/04/sick_internet_joke_or_real_thing.php
An anonymous user on the English imageboard, 4chan, appears to have posted the following warning Monday just before 5 a.m.
“hey /b/ I‘m going to kill people at vtech today in the name of anonymous”
-- Jake7457 20:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a working link: http://www.thestar.com/StarPM/article/204030 I think at least a mention of it should be put in the articl. It should although be stated that this is the only source that makes this claim. -- Dr. WTF 01:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
As much as I occassionally visit 4chan myself, it is not a citable source. People post random stuff in there all the time. KyuuA4 16:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This should probaly get a mention on the Inaccurate media reports of the Virginia Tech massacre article.
It's now being reported that scripts for two of the killer's plays have been released: [1] [2]
Worthy of mention in the Wiki article? Bueller 007 20:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The text of two of his writings are available on http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/
I don't know how to link them in the article though, or if they should be. Zehly 20:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This is my first edit, so please forgive any breach of protocol. Under "5.1 Plays," I thought perhaps Edward Falco's name should link to the corresponding article. Rejay9090 07:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
i have a question....in america, mustn't one be tried and convicted of a crime before one is considered a criminal? -- emerson7 | Talk 21:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
What do you call someone that murders 32 people? I'd call them a criminal. I also call people who shoplift from stores and not caught criminals (and thus not prosecuted). I'm sure most would agree. Technically however.... you may be right. Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
...should not wikipaedia articles stick with the facts, rather than emotional impressions? -- emerson7 | Talk 22:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
So what is your suggestion? Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 22:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
If the using that box will render the same result than feel free to do so under WP:Bold. Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Common usage of the word criminal would unquestionably fit as Nja247 says. Legal usage wouldnt fit but we have to use common expressions over legal ones, SqueakBox 23:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Squeakbox's point is well taken, but as editors, we should strive for precision of language. For example, "murder" is a legal term for a specifically-defined type of criminal homicide. "Homicide" is the killing of a human being by another. Not all homicides are criminal acts. "Killing" is a word that describes a behavior. Not all killing (even the killing of a human being) is wrongful or criminal. Therefore, it is better to refer to Mr. Cho as a "killer" (the behavioral description) rather than a "murderer" (the legal description), since the former is more precise than the latter, even though both words may be correct in common usage. pointlessforest 19:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The doctrine of res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself) would classify him as a criminal for the purposes of a civil tort claim. That's good enough for me. -- Chris Thompson 23:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Do we use the criminal infobox for someone who has been accused but not commited of a crime? I think people are letting their emotions run wild here. Remember, NPOV. Titanium Dragon 00:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Since Mr. Cho is deceased, he cannot ever be formally accused, tried or convicted of any crime that may have occurred. As a matter of law, he cannot properly be referred to as a criminal (unless he has prior felony or misdemeanor convictions). He can and should be referred to as a suspect or presumed killer. This debate harkens back to a similar controversy regarding Lee Oswald, who was never tried, but was formally charged with the murders of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit prior to his own untimely demise, and therefore may be properly referred to as an accused person. pointlessforest 18:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe suicide is also illegal, which would make him a criminal, even if we can't prove he's a "murderer". Therefore, I believe the description "criminal" is apt. Laura 06:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
First off, Laura's factual premise is false, because suicide is not a crime under the Virginia Criminal Code, a fact easily checked online. [3] Secondly, the argument itself is fallacious, for the same reasons set forth above, because even if suicide was a crime, the suspect is dead and cannot be formally charged, tried or convicted, as a matter of law. pointlessforest 19:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
For the love of God, people, stop acting emotional! I understand that this is an extremely emotional event, but when you are WRITING material for an encyclopedia, then you need to put your emotions aside as best you can. The truth is, this man is NOT a criminal in the sense of using the infobox for criminals. Yes, common sense clearly dictates that he committed a crime, but technically, he cannot be presented as such. Furthermore, it doesn't make much of a difference, beyond the emotional DESIRE to have him portrayed as a criminal. Just change it to the Person infobox. -- Ubergenius 19:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Without a conviction, I would say that it is inappropriate to use the the "Criminal" infobox. Even those committing criminal acts, like homicide, can be found not guilty if there are factors such as insanity involved. Using the "Criminal" infobox here is covert POV pushing. -- Wordbuilder 19:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Let me ask any of you who think that conviction is the standard of criminality: suppose you were arrested, tried, and convicted for an arson you did not commit. Would you be an arsonist, in virtue of your conviction? Of course not. Why? Because you had not actually violated a law, regardless of your conviction. Well, that is the standard of criminality, folks - whether or not you have broken the law. One is presumed innocent until proven guilty as a matter of how the government treats you, but this does nothing substantive to alter the nature of your actions, it merely establishes an official account of them so that society has a basis for determining how it should deal with you. You do not have to be a convict to be a criminal, any more than you have to have a Social Security number to be a human being. Arguing otherwise is to presume a false premise: that whether or not one is innocent or guilty of a crime is entirely a matter of a declaration by a legal authority, be it a judge or a jury. I think we can all see the problems with that point of view. In any case, he sent a package to the media admitting that he did it, and this can reasonably be considered a confession.
I should add that those accusing others of "acting emotional" should consider whether or not their zeal for a false standard of technical accuracy might not come under the same heading. The criminal infobox is completely appropriate for this article. Hieron 04:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
When someone dies in the process of committing a crime, obviously, no trial can be held. But from a legal standpoint, if that person is considered by police to be obvious perpetrator, the case is closed and he is assumed to be guilty unless there is evidence that suggests another suspect or casts doubt on his involvement. The "reasonable doubt" test does not apply as it would in a jury trial; conversely, there is also a somewhat higher standard of proof than there would be in an ordinary arrest, the reason being that authorities need to be certain that there are no other suspects. Under U.S. law, there is no doubt that Cho should be considered a criminal unless further evidence is forthcoming. Bradrules 07:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless he was dead while murdering people, you'd have a valid point about a non-criminal status. You had enough witnesses and proof to show a crime was committed even before a trial, even enough so to claim someone a criminal. While he couldn't have a legal criminal title written clearly on paper within such a tight timeframe, your skipping an entire step of criminal justice as it's beyond ignorant to assume Cho wouldn't be considered a criminal. I fail to see a reason to the defense of this obvious fact. The criminal infobox is correctly placed. -- BeggarEthics 07:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Crime occurs when someone breaks the law. Did he break the law/laws undoubtedly? Yes indeed, the article wouldn't exist otherwise. Thereofore, he clearly was a criminal.-- Svetovid 23:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Gosh, would someone puuullease fix the article so that it says FIRST NAME first (hence the reason why it's called a "first name") and his LAST NAME last??? Cho is a very VERY common last name, and even if the press and the police can't help it, at LEAST wiki should be consistent and make suue his FIRST NAME is written first.
interesting how hes been in usa for 15yrs, yet he still puts his family name first
I agree that the title of the article should read Seung-hui Cho. I am familiar with name order in East Asian countries and Hungary, but when people from those countries live here and are longstanding part of society, they do as the Romans do. That's why there's Kazuhiro Sasaki, Ming-Na Wen, Se Ri Pak, and Zsa Zsa Gabor instead of Sasaki Kazuhiro, Wen Ming Na, Pak Se Ri, and Gabor Zsa Zsa.
Having lived in an area in the US with a large Korean population, my Korean classmates always followed the Western-order when using English. In Korean, of course, they employed their usual order. This list of Korean Americans confirms this.
I hope this is changed for the sake of consistency and accuracy, but I am not sure if this is likely since the media (and someone screwed up, and now everyone's following this order) is popularizing this order. Google News gives 2,700+ hits for Cho Seung-Hui while 49 (ABC News among them) for Seung-Hui Cho. ---- Chris 01:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Interesting, Kvasir, it does seem plausible that the media thought he was a Korean exchange student on a student visa. As for HappyCamper - even norsident aliens here in the US follow western order when using English. -- Chris 02:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This is pretty absurd... wiki has a chance to go against the mainstream media, which imho seriously messed up when they listed his surname first. For crying out loud this guy has lived in the US since 1992. Moreover, we should name him according to how he himself preferred to be named. Look at his plays, he lists himself as Seung Cho. Arguments that cite Korean name orders are severely flawed because their base assumption is that Cho is South Korean. HE IS NOT. This guy was KOREAN-AMERICAN. If we change his name to Cho Seung-Hui we should be consistant and change the name oif EVERY American of East Asian descent on wiki to reflect this.
Someone change it already, as I am myself starting to see major news outlets use SEUNG-HUI CHO. This is getting annoying already. Secondgen 16:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Associated Press: "Cho's name was given as "Cho Seung-Hui" by police and school officials earlier this week. But the the South Korean immigrant family said their preference was 'Seung-Hui Cho.'" Jorobeq 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
someone please change it to Seung-Hui Cho, i can't.
wow how did people find the hanja version of his name so quickly?
Can we double check if the Hanja is correct? How about 趙承熙? -- HappyCamper 01:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Cho Seung-Hui in Hanja is 赵承熙, not 曹承辉.
We still have no reliable sources, but the hanja have been reinserted again. I will keep removing them unless someone provides a cite to a Korean newspaper (NOT a Chinese newspaper, for the reason I mentioned above, that their transcriptions are just wild guesses) which uses the Hanja. Thanks, cab 23:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
曹 is not a common family name in Korea and the family name 趙 is the 7th largest in S.Korea. 承熙 also common name in Korea. Let me example some. Lee Seung-man, the 1st president of Korea is 이승만(李承晩). Famous Park Jeong-hee, another president of Korea is 박정희(朴正熙). -- Queenmillennia 01:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not work based on a single authorized/preferred source rule such as "Korean newspapers but not Chinese newspapers". With ANY source there will be legitimate questions about its accuracy, but this does not mean that information is to be withheld until it has been confirmed by "official" sources. Such questions must be resolved by comparison with other sources and review of the inherent consistency/likelihood of each piece of information.
Korean papers generally do not publish any Chinese characters for personal names except where the individual is very exalted. We should not hold our breath waiting for Korean newspapers to give us the hanja, but go ahead and publish what REASONABLE, plausible information we have.
It is true that Chinese newspapers often make up Chinese names for convenience, and that such renditions cannot be regarded as authentic (they are generally labeled as "phonetic renditions"). In this specific case, the prestigious World Journal (Chinese newspaper published in the U.S.) originally rendered the name as 趙承熙, but switched to 曹丞禧 in later reports. Since this change is glaring to Chinese readers, it is reasonable to assume that the latter version is based on better information (probably Korean community in the U.S. which coincidentally includes numerous ethnic Chinese from South Korea who are more astute in their understanding of Chinese characters than Korea's media). It is also inherently plausible because the characters are far less common than those of the original version yet fit the phonetic Korean spelling WikiFlier 02:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
No, World Journal was first, I cited them in my original amendment. Please do not delete the hanja unless you have BETTER information. The information we have now is good (1) based on the timeline (see above, and also check the revision history); (2) comports with the phonetic spelling; (3) uses relatively rare characters that are less likely to have been chosen as "phonetic standins" than the more generic, "Korean-sounding" 趙承熙. (The last two characters are "Korean-sounding" to a Chinese reader because they correspond to the "Syng" and "Hee" in the names of former South Korean presidents Syngman Rhee and Park Chung Hee, respectively. Both characters are commonly seen in Korean given names.) WikiFlier 02:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
source: http://china.donga.com/gb/srv/service.php3?biid=2007041937588 (in Chinese)
It is a Korean newspaper and shall be the correct translation.
I have made the change since there are two major Korean newspapers confirmed his Hanja name. Wei Jiang 06:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Just an FYI, the the title that one editor cited has now changed apparently. Instead of "維州理工冷血殺手:韓裔學生曹丞禧", it's now "維州理工冷血殺手:韓裔學生趙承禧". On top of that, 青島日報 (Sing Tao Daily Newspaper), another Chinese newspaper says that his name is neither 曹丞禧 or 趙承禧, but 趙承熙. I'm no expert on Korean names since I'm not Korean, obviously. So I wouldn't know which characters are more likely to be his name. Even if one of the characters are more popular than the other ones, that doesn't mean that there are no chances that the other ones are actually correct. Personally, I think only his parents are the only reliable sources out there, since they chose the name for Cho, and unless someone can contact them and ask them, Cho's Hanja name should be left out.
I suggest removing the Hanja name until someone has first-hand hard evidence. Wikikin 06:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone has used a Chinese source to put hanja on the korean version of the page. Not sure what the foot note and reference says, but in the discussion someone listed all the possibilities and combination the hanja could be rendered based on the hangul. http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%ED%86%A0%EB%A1%A0:%EC%A1%B0%EC%8A%B9%ED%9D%AC -- Kvasir 07:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The date(s) listed for the purchase of the gun(s) need to be vetted, and in the meantime, an EDIT needs to be made - at least regarding the section that says the 22cal gun was purchased 'a WEEK prior to the shooting'. Although these are the dates originally reported this am, I have read 3+ news articles that list New Information quoted as being "from Investigators" or "ATF Officials" that now give the dates of the gun purchases as March 13, 2007 for the Glock and ** February (some actually say 'Feb 9') for the 22 cal gun **. I am not registered. Can someone do this please? thx 172.165.109.63 02:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
SECOND REQUEST. Can someone with EDIT capability please remove the erroneous 'purchased 22cal gun a Week Prior to the killings' statement ..... please? Thx.
172.165.109.63
02:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
THIRD REQUEST. Sorry, but each time I read it, it grates on my nerves and since I don't have the authority/ability to correct the error .. I need some Help please. It is in the paragraph several sentences below the first mention of the Glock purchase, with no date given, where it says the second gun, the 22, was purchased A WEEK PRIOR TO THE MURDERS. ThxMUCH. 172.165.109.63 02:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC) BeachBlonde
Thank you, HAPPY CAMPER! I just read it. Now I can bring it down to the frantic.
Is the source article correct (VA Tech Massacre)? 172.165.109.63 02:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Thanks again HAPPY CAMPER. Very much appreciate your help. Cheers - 172.165.109.63 03:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
I added in the reference to the fact that he did not reveal he'd been involuntarily committed to a psychiatric institution, which would have disqualified him from purchasing the handguns, and that it didn't show up on the background check. Esprix 02:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
(His favourite song that he listened to over and over.) Evaulator 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is the mention that he listened to this song/band at all relevant? I don't think so. Also, no source is listed. 142.161.165.178 02:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Another thing - I'm not sure that the song was Shine - I was watching the interview w/ his roomates, and I remember it was collective soul, but I don't think it was shine...
It was most certainly Shine.
24.141.134.77
05:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
He apparently wrote the lyrics of the song on his dorm room walls in pen or pencil, as reported by his roommates in the interview.
EDIT: On CNN (Larry King I think) they interviewed his roomates. They mentioned that he would play the song "Shine" by Collective Soul at all hours of the day. It would often wake them up at night. In addition, he would also write the words on the walls of their suite. I think the song was dear to him, and that he may have identified with the lyrics.
"Shine"
Give me a word/ Give me a sign/ Show me where to look/ Tell me what will I find/ Lay me on the ground/ Fly me in the sky/ Show me where to look/ Tell me what will I find/ Oh, heaven let your light shine down/
Love is in the water/ Love is in the air/ Show me where to go/ Tell me will love be there/ Teach me how to speak/ Teach me how to share/ Teach me where to go/ Tell me will love be there/ Oh, heaven let your light shine down/
http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/music/archives/2007/04/collective_soul.php
Should we add a section titled: "Evidence of Premeditation" or "Evidence of Planning/Advance Planning"?
I think this is a relevant, timely topic that is central to the issues at hand -- ie, what could have been done to prevent/avert this tragedy. It seems clear that the VA Tech President will be taking much heat for decisions made/not made and much gun controversy politics will use this as a platform for their divergent opinions. Evidence of premediation and his efforts towards planning are central to the issue and can be NPOV ... or used as REF in conjunction with the political commentary.
What do you all think? There is SO MUCH evidence coming out with regard to the actions taken by Cho to meticulously plan out this massacre ... I am of the mind that listing it out (the facts, cited) will not only be valuable for reference sourcing, but also for both future legislation/policy/planning AND for emotional catharsis and healing (although the latter should not matter here on wiki ... nonetheless it is true, and it would be an additional kindness). Just looking at the chain of events in cold, hard facts of premeditation would be of scholarly value, as well as the obvious. Anyone want to take it on? 172.165.109.63 03:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC) BeachBlonde
No one is answering yet, so I will start. It could be in a date/timeline format, or just a listing of actions/preparation steps. Perhaps like this:
Fall 2005 - Cho writes the play 'Richard McBeef', a shocking and disturbing account of pedophilia, violence and murder, unnerving both his classmates and teacher. Many students discuss Cho's aberrant behavior and even debate whether or not Cho could be 'one of those School Shooters'. Cho's teacher reports him to the VA Tech Administration.
Fall 2006 - Cho submits additional writings that cause deep concern. Cho's creative writing instructor ends up having to take multiple actions that lead to Cho being removed from the class, being reported to VA Tech Administration, and referred to counseling. Cho's teacher additionally and notably reports him to POLICE OFFICIALS, who respond that UNDER THE LAW, they can do nothing based on PERCEIVED INTENTIONS AND OPINIONS and their hands are tied until Cho takes action or volunteers to seek help. Cho's teacher is so concerned that she risks her own safety and offers to teach Cho 'one on one' in order to keep him under close observation.
2006 - Winter 2007 - Cho stalks several women on campus, takes pictures of females on campus without their permission, and even starts a fire in his dorm.
March - April 2007 - Cho is stopped by police for speeding in two separate incidents.
Feb 9, 2007 - Cho purchases a 22cal gun from a local VA pawnshop.
Mar 13, 2007 - Cho purchases a Glock-19 semi-automatic handgun from a Blacksburg gun shop, along with 2 boxes of what was termed 'practice' ammo.
Apr 9, 2007 - Cho calls in a Bomb Threat to VA Tech campus admin
(?date?) - Cho calls in a second Bomb Threat to campus admin presumably to test campus security response.
Apr 16, 2007 - 5:00am EDT - Cho is seen by dormmate, 'going into the bathroom, dressed in a tshirt and boxer shorts, to put in his contact lenses and complete his morning routine of applying lotion to his face and inserting his contact lenses'. The dormmate reported that Cho was his 'normal silent self - with no expression of emotion of any kind on his face'.
7:15am EDT - Cho is seen and heard arguing with victim #1, Emily (lastname needed), on the 4th floor of her dorm at AJ. When RA 'Stack' Ryan Clark hears the commotion and comes to investigate, he is shot in the neck by Cho, who also leaves Emily dead. Cho exits AJ Dorm with his weapon(s) seemingly without notice. Emily's boyfriend (name needed) was seen exiting AJ dorm and responding police/security focused on him as the primary suspect while Cho quietly slipped back to his own dorm room. Emily and her boyfriend were known to have been shooting at the practice range the week prior to the killings, which added to the confusion and incorrect suspect identification.
7:30am EDT - 9:00am EDT - While Emily's boyfriend is being detained and questioned by police and campus security, Cho finishes his final preparations. In his dorm room, Cho leaves a long, multi-paged, rambling note, accusing 'others' for causing him to assassinate the 50+ students and faculty he targeted (ultimately killing 32 and wounding 19). He also prepares for the killing spree by wearing a distinctive 'costume' made up of 2 vests, one of which he used to carry and conceal an arsenal of ammunition. Chains which Cho used to trap the students inside Norris Hall were packed in his backpack, leaving the unused sections behind. Cho then heads out across campus and the drill field to the Engineering Building at Norris Hall.
9:00am EDT - Students report seeing Cho enter Norris Hall. Several students state that Cho 'poked his head into the classroom(s) several times, as if he was looking for someone'. It is unknown at this time if reports that Cho was 'looking for his girlfriend' are accurate, was something untrue - yet believed to be true by Cho in a deluded state, or was part of Cho's ruse to 'case' Norris Hall and further plan and refine his precision attack on the unarmed, unsuspecting students and faculty, who were coming to the close of their first classes of the morning.
....... and so on and so on.
Comments?
BTW, I cannot add to or edit a locked page/stub, so I will need someone else to add this for me please if you feel it is warranted. 172.165.109.63 03:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
"Premeditation" is a legal term with a very specific meaning and its use should be avoided here; it refers to a particular aspect of an accused's mental state, one of the elements of a crime that must be proven by the state beyond a reasonable doubt. Since Mr. Cho is deceased, he may never be formally accused, tried or convicted of any crime that may have occurred on April 16, 2007, and therefore "premeditation" is irrelevant and possibly misleading. However, a section that sets forth, in narrative form, the known facts (with proper citations) that reasonably suggest that these events were planned, or part of some behavioral scheme, would be advisable. A distinction needs to be drawn between evidence of planning and that of motive. In my opinion, any timeline should be in a separate section, or shown in graphic form or better yet, left out altogether. pointlessforest 19:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
According to an AC interview on CNN, Cho had an imaginary girlfriend named "Jelly" who referred to him as "Spanky." I added it to the article, but it was reverted.... Did anyone else hear this on CNN and can corroborate? I haven't found a source yet.... -- Carthaginienses 3:51 AM, 18 April, 2007 (UTC)
I have changed Cho's name throughout the article to the American given/surname order, and will be moving the article to Seung-hui Cho, leaving Cho Seung-hui as a redirect, unless anyone objects. -- Dynaflow 04:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
near the end it should be 300 level not 3000, right? 70.20.232.243 04:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I second. 300 is the correct level for VA Tech. The 'thousand-place' levels are used at the University of Florida (my alma mater) and some other schools, but not this one. I cannot edit. Someone will have to make this change please. Thx 172.165.109.63 04:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
why do we need to have his sister's name in the article? I removed it. Janviermichelle 04:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I worry for her (safety et al). she is a Princeton grad with a US Govt contract job (with security clearance) at McNeil (great job, likely stellar resume/cv) .... and has clearly worked hard to get a plum position. Her brother's actions (not her own) may well destroy her life. Seung should NOT have the opportunity to claim a 33rd life, imho.
172.165.109.63
05:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
JanvierMichelle, I can't believe you. The detail is reported in the press. The fact that he has a sister is notable about him.
Her name has been quoted in press reports - And 172.165.109.63, no. Her name has already been leaked to the press. WhisperToMe 05:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought I was implying that sad fact in my comment (how else would I have known all that private info), however, we don't need to WIKI her ... reminding the entire Planet Earth of her name and personal details. People will forget one day and those FEW News articles will disappear in the massive media blitz and the next 'big 24 hour news break'. So we should NOT be irresponsible and it ought to be REMOVED IMMEDIATELY.
172.165.109.63
05:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
In that case, I will keep her nameless for the moment :) WhisperToMe 06:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah! Who are we to decide what to hide. In my quest to know more about this person, I'd like to know the complete bio of his sister and parents.
WHISPER: I agree that lying is an offense (both by ommission and by direct falsehood) however, we as sinful human beings are ALL GUILTY OF IT and that does not allow any excuse or relief from condemnation (hence why we need a savior, but I will save the obvious and avoid hyperbole). By your own account, WIKI AND the MSM are Fatally Flawed since the names of Cho's parents are not included (as they have been reported - I know BOTH of their Full Names AND the name of their business AND their full address and phone numbers). This info has either been deleted or not reported/added (their names, etc.) and WELL it SHOULD NOT. By all means, state that Cho had a sister/sibling -- even say she is a Princeton alumna, but DO NOT link her name to INfAMOUS Notariety by linking her one and ONLY Name to the all time worst spree killer in the US, her brother. It is not for us to ruin her life and although WIKI must be NROP, cruelty doesn't apply and we must be responsible. In a court of law, the sister could SUE WIKI for publishing and linking her name to a CRIME she did NOT commit ... for example, if she loses/lost her (amazing, hard won) job and can show cause ... bye bye WIKI Funds.
172.165.109.63
06:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
A link to a story about his sister has been added, and although less blatent than directly stating her name, it still seems like a violation of her privacy. Her name is not relevent, and has the potential to inflict emense consequences on an innocent person. Anyone who doesnt beleive that there are people crazy enough to pose a threat to someone who has done nothing wrong hasnt been following what they're editing. I would like to request that any references to any articles that are so tasteless and vulturelike as to give his sister's name and place of employment be deleted. We may have a responsibility as editors to present the facts, but we have a responsibility as humans to not make the lives of the people affected by this tragidy any harder then they already are. And I do not see how not including her biography, or any links to it detracts from the article in any way. I'd delete it myself but I'm new, and therefore blocked from editing. Sierrarose23 07:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
By my lack of an actual username, I imagine all will realize that I'm by no means an established community member. As such, I'm certainly not familiar with Wikipedia protocol pertinent to such situations. That said, I do have to admit that I concur with those offering a humanitarian criticism regarding the inclusion of her name in this article, and feel compelled to weigh in - for whatever it's worth, most likely nothing.
To those arguing that her identity is crucial to his bibliographic entry, I partially agree. The fact that he does have an older, arguably very successful sibling may be pertinent, and merits inclusion. I don't believe that her name, however, contributes anything of significance. Considering the potential ramifications of directly identifying her, I feel very strongly that her name should continue to be omitted. Of course, as this is a very recent, naturally ongoing event, things may unfold in such a way that her identification is necessary. From the presently available materials, however, nothing indicates that it contributes much of interest or relevance to the understanding of her brother's motives or mental state.
Though I forget where exactly I viewed it, one article or video that I caught described her as "palpably distraught" when contacted for interviews. This woman has done nothing wrong, and unless the ensuing proceedings indicate it necessary, I have to say I don't believe that her name should be avoidably tarnished.
Again, since I'm not an official member, please take these comments with a grain of salt. They're just the thoughts of a guy who isn't really all that familiar with Wiki policies...
Thanks for your time in reading this, and hopefully your consideration...
Her name and place of work have been re added. Could someone with edit ability please remove it? the "he has a sister who attends an Ivy League university" line that was previously in the article seemed to work quite well, simultaniously protecting her identity, and giving the information that was relevent to this article (ie that his sister is successful.)
It is downright irresponsible of us to give the amount of detail about her that is currently present in this article.
Sierrarose23
05:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I logged in (something I swore I wouldn't do again) to re-take the sister's name out. Unless there is a CLEAR and DIRECT connection between the sister and her brother's aberrant behavior THE SISTER'S NAME MUST BE LEFT OUT. She is not a part of this tragedy. Ninodeluz 12:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC) NIN
There is no problem stating that he had a sister. There is a very large problem telling people what her name is as knowing her name bears exactly no relevance to the subject at hand. Ninodeluz 15:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC) NIN
QUOTE from the Wikipedia page: Thomas Jefferson was born on 13 April 1743 (Gregorian N.S) into a wealthy Virginia family, the third of ten children. His mother was Jane Randolph, daughter of Isham Randolph, and a cousin of Peyton Randolph. Jefferson's father was Peter Jefferson, a planter and surveyor who owned plantations in Albemarle County (Shadwell, then Edge Hill, Virginia.)
Where are the names of his nine siblings? Jefferson is a much more important figure and we don't list his siblings' names. There is NO reason beyond purience to list the name of Cho's sister. Ninodeluz 16:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC) NIN
The main reason that the nine siblings are left unnamed is because it would become very repetitive. There are nine names of limited importance. However, in this situation, there is only one sibling; it would not become repetitive to place her name in the article. Also, the analogy cannot be used in its entirety because nobody in Cho's family is listed, as many of Jefferson's are. This is probably because of lack of information at this early date, but it is still an ommission that negates the analogy.
Emiellaiendiay 03:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
from what im reading, you people think that his sister's name should be there because it's 'lying' if it isnt. well then, what does his sister have to do with any of this? based on this logic, are you saying that we should then put up his whole family tree including his father, mother, relatives, etc, on this page for everyone to see? remove his sister's name, most importantly to protect the family's safety and also because i do not see what his sister has to do with an article on himself. - Howe Law, 21 April 2007
Is it necessary to keep this sensational tone in the Wikipedia, apparently so concerned with acuracy, approprietness of presented materials? I find it sickening to see, just days after the whole tragedy, this new Wikipedia page eagerly labelled "mass murderer". Anybody interested in exploring deeper than 1/4 inch under the surface? Plus the respect for the family and the dead killer himself (a human being after all...). I am aware my words might sound strange, nevertheless if Wikipedia strives to become a respectable source of information, perhaps it could apply its severe editing policies where is needed.-- Traveler273 17:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Cho Seung-Hui was a Korean citizen not an American citizen. Among Asians, in the US both the Asian (Korean and Chinese) order of family name is used and the Americanized way. Usually the order becomes Americanized due to the way that the forms are set up. The family name is important and people are generally called by Mr. Cho (Cho sonsangnim) with the first name rarely being used. It is not wrong to use the Asian order because he was STILL a Korean citizen as were his family members. Only the sister used the Americanized order. I can appreciate that Asians want to minimize his "Asianess" because it is embarassing to them. However, the fact remains that he was Asian. Probably some of the difficulty he had was BECAUSE he was Asian and did not fit in with his peers. His older sister, because she was older and a girl had less difficulty. I STRONGLY feel that the order should be Cho Seung-Hui. It becomes very confusing to read an article when there are two versions of the names. If the aunt, mother, father, etc. are listed in the Asian way (especially those still IN Korea MUST be listed this way) then for continuity in the article, the name should be KEPT in the Asian way. Cherylyoung 16:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I propose a new poll on the question of whether or not this article should be moved from "Cho Seung-Hui" to "Seung-Hui Cho." Media outlets such as MSNBC, CNN, AP, and a number of others have now switched to Seung-Hui Cho after the family announced that this was the order they used. So shall it be Cho Seung-Hui or Seung-Hui Cho? Many arguments for both sides have been articulated above, and I only propose this new poll because some who weighed in earlier on the talk page might want to rethink their votes given the apparent switch by much of the media. Add your vote here. -- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
{{Editprotected}}
I'm not saying that Seung-hui was a "true hikikomori," but consider the Hikikomori Contoversy article. Red Plum 01:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to list him under this category? He's hardly a notable playwright. Proserpine 08:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you. Secondgen 08:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It would be one thing if he was a killer who merely wrote plays on the side. But, the fact that he wrote plays that apparently revealed his mental condition and alerted teachers shows that he is notable for writing the plays, and therefore is a playwright. WhisperToMe 16:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
WhisperToMe 16:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
If you want me to beat the horse into more pulp, I can use a dictionary entry. "play·wright /ˈpleɪˌraɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pley-rahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun a writer of plays; dramatist." From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/playwright
If someone writes a play, he is automatically a playwright according to this dictionary definition. WhisperToMe 16:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
-- Ali'i 16:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Main Entry: 1no·ta·ble Pronunciation: 'nO-t&-b&l, for 2 also 'nä- Function: adjective 1 a : worthy of note : REMARKABLE b : DISTINGUISHED, PROMINENT
As you can see, he is not notable at all in the discussion of playwright. Secondgen 16:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Bueller 007, if "nobody gives two craps about his plays," then:
"There is nothing remarkable, distinguishing, prominent, and worthy of his play."
I think we are missing the point, folks. Secondgen, please read the plays and the media reports created about the plays. What distinguishes the plays:
WhisperToMe 17:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Whispertome, you fucking idiot. Cho seunghui is not a playwright in the first place. Writing a play as a class assignment doesn't make you a playwright. You can't go to Broadway and say, "I'm a playwright since I wrote this, accept me."
It would be quite useful if someone knows which arm he wrote Ismail Ax on. Then we could determine further whether or not it is religious. I don't know, but is there a religion which strongly enforced which hand is better?
If you don't understand what I mean, here is an example.
People in the past always thought left was bad. So if you were left handed, they would try to "convert" you to be right handed.
I heard this from my history teacher (secondary school teacher)
Nubbles 18:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It could also be to make sure that everyone knew that he sent the package to NBC, as he has the sender name as such. 209.43.114.77 23:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, did it occur to anyone that the word 'mail' is in that name? Johan de Ruiter
Although speculation, the anagram of Ismail Ax is "Mix Alias". Might have more meaning to someone who know Cho, or might not mean anything at all...
Also, I consider it likely he was right handed. In the photos, he held the Glock in his right hand. The Glock has stronger recoil, which is why he would use his right hand to fire.
Not much to go by, methinks. Personally I'd think that he'd use one pistol at a time. Recoil can be quite shocking for someone unprepared. Plus reloading both pistols at one time is quite a hassle. However, this topic isn't really for me to speculate on. Pzychotix 15:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems like having a different section for each of the different writings that have been discussed so far in the media is unnecessary. I think to have a section about Attributed Writings does little more than suggest that this man was some kind of tortured artist, when the reality is that he was completely lacking talent in the area (as mentioned in the article). Also, these plays were written as assigned work for a class. Further, it is contradictory to have an entire section about his writing, only to include a comment by his teacher calling them "adolescent and silly". In my opinion, it would do more than enough to say that he wrote violent and disturbing things -- this could be included under the Behavior section. Bentobias 19:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Was Cho a Muslim? Ismail a very prominent name in the Koran. He's a prophet and the son of Ibrahim (Abraham in the bible). Seems like people are walking on eggshells to avoid using the word 'Muslim' anywhere on this page.
I heard he's a Christian.
He's not a Muslim. CNN interviewed his former pastor briefly last night. 24.141.134.77 19:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, he had expressed some complaints against Christianity in one of his notes. 129.7.131.198 19:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)gnoko
Even so, there is nothing to indicate that he was a Muslim. However, there is strong evidence that, at some point in his life, he was a Christian. I don't think his religious views are particularly relevant though. 24.141.134.77 19:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but Cho was motivated by and even quotes Osama Bin Laden and 9/11 in his manifesto. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18186064/ His writings certainly seem to indicate he is a muslim. He also says "Now that you have gone a hummer safari on me like fucking Bush".
He comes from a christian family. In his video, he compared himself to Jesus Christ. Malamockq 05:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
==> You edits and guesses of Cho's redacted words are assumptions, and not supports.
It really says a lot about right-wing bloggers' level of education that they think the only meaning of "Ishmael" is Muslim-related. Hasn't anyone read Moby Dick? "Ishmael" is also the name of the main character in James Fenimore Cooper's "The Prairie". Being that Cho was an English major, he was likely acquainted with at least one of these works, and could have imagined himself as an iconoclastic and misunderstood hero.
Quite apart from the lack of significance that ought to be ascribed to the Ismail/Ishmael point, there is direct evidence that Cho was not a Muslim, at least not any kind of orthodox one. He said: "Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people." Most Muslims do not believe that Jesus died at all, on the basis of a statement in the Qur'an; see Islamic view of Jesus. -- Anon.
Forget the semantics, this man was clearly acculturated in the US. He arrived at the age of eight and died there when he was 23. Fifteen-odd formative years ... Nitpicking over how to describe him overlooks the fact that this psychopath was probably shaped more by the country he grew up in than the one he left as a little kid. Johnno2 14:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cho_Seung-hui" He was from South Korea, and he was a legal resident in Virginia, but is it correct to call him a Korean-American? I didn't remove it. Someone else can do it. I am not sure. -- Kalmia 01:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
we had this talk yesterday and today (look in the archive). refer to [ [9]] to see that the tag 'American' does not mean citizen of America. Also see [ [10]] to note that the category includes those who immigrated from Korea. Harlock jds 02:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't reference internal wikipidia sites for evidence. From the Oxford American dictionary definition of Asian American: "an American who is of Asian (chiefly Far Eastern) descent." That's it. Period. It seems basic, but some people don't get it. You have to be an American to be an Asian American. Penser 04:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)penser It is not important to have him in either Asian or Korean categories. This may be true but it is not relevant information. 75.3.2.207 04:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Of course Seung Cho is a Korean-American. Korean American is a term for an ethnic minority, regardless of citizenship. -- Chris 05:49, 19 April 2007 PS: And why in the world are we relying on a dictionary for a question about ethnicity? From an anthropological standpoint, he would fit every criterion to be a Korean American.
Speaking of anthopology, can someone please unearth a similar discussion section out of the Archive? I have a major case of deja vu here. -- Kvasir 08:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The continuing removal of this category is unfortunate. I thought this had already been resolved. Cho was a permanent, legal resident of the United States, who had lived here since he was eight years old without cessation. He was raised in this country, went to schools here, spoke English with an American accent, and attended university here. As a permanent, legal resident he was afforded all the rights U.S. citizens are, with the exception of voting. Whether or not he was a U.S. citizen is a straw man: as I've pointed out before, in the last discussion of this, a Korean person born in the U.S. while his parents are on vacation but who leaves the country as an infant, never to return, is a U.S. citizen by virtue of having been born in the country. In that case such a person would be a Korean American without objection? (No one has yet addressed this example.) Someone of Korean heritage who is raised in the U.S. and lives in the U.S. as an adult is a Korean American in every sense of the word. To suggest otherwise is to demonstrate a misunderstanding both of American history and of immigration to the United States, particularly when it includes being raised in the U.S. Moncrief 12:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a transcript of the video he sent to NBC News? 209.244.43.215 01:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I carefully read thru the mental health form. [18]
A police officer cannot declare someone mentally ill. What they can do (generally speaking) is-- detain someone (so that they get assessed by a mental health professional) if they:
Some jurisdictions have a few other criteria.
Both CNN and ABC got the details wrong. It seems obvious to me (based on the comments about mood and affect) that the psychiatrist was under the impression the man was depressed. There were no indications he was going to harm someone else (based on the assessment). The psychiatrist didn't think he need to be held involuntarily at that time (i.e. he wasn't a risk to himself or to others based on that assessment)-- and could be sent for out-patient care. Nephron T| C 02:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Apparently Cho was involuntarily detained because he was believed to be suicidal. The conclusion by the psychiatrist was that he posed an imminent danger to himself but not to others, and that this condition was to be treated with outpatient therapy. Look at the findings and conditions on page 6. The document only pertains to Cho being admitted for psychiatric care. It does not contain assessments for his time while committed or anything concerning his discharge. Presumably he would not have been discharged until he was found to no longer represent a threat to himself. No homicidal tendencies were noted at the time of his admittance. 71.205.216.122 04:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Andy says in the NBC interview that he was "weirded out" by the appearance of Cho taking photos in his doorway late at night. Possibly Andy was partially unclothed at the time. Andy also speculates that he did not know what else Cho might be doing there at that time of night besides the photos, implying that it might be other prurient activity. I believe that this adds up to possible-homoeroticism, implied by Andy. If true, the homoeroticism could be a potentially important personality trait of Cho's that should be mentioned. uriel8 (talk) 02:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Andy is talking about male-male prurient activity. The word for that is homoeroticism or at the very least possible-homoeroticism. uriel8 (talk) 03:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This was in the intro of this article and I think it's fucked up. The evidence is showing us that bullying and social rejection may have contributed to Cho's reaction. Fox, the source used for this is not titling him "The" question mark killer, but rather "A question mark killer" is a more appropriate description of the source. I think that the person who put this sentence up was ignorant of the fact that using such a title will further insight reaction by careless peers of 'loners' everywhere, by using suspicion as an excuse to be even more violent towards them. Somebody please take it down. -youngidealist 68.231.200.13 04:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone removed the line under the preparation section stating that Cho's experience with firearms is unknown. This is very relevant, and until more information surfaces on the specifics, it needs to remain in place. Hopefully anyone who does know this will be able to update the information. I've put it back. If more details are be uncovered, replace the line with the information.
Tymothy
15:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I replaced it. It's a couple of days old; surprised that no one added it yet.
Chickentoo
17:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Guys I think I messed up the works cited page
It's pretty obvious that Cho was very seriously mentally ill. As a psychology student, the first thing that came to my mind after the release of his media package was that his history of behavior prior to the shootings were characteristic of schizotypal disorder comorbid with paranoid personality disorder. His odd speech patterns, extreme isolationist tendencies (far beyond the usual "loner" behavior), odd beliefs (imaginary girlfriend that he nicknamed "Jelly" and who called him "Spanky"), expressions of victimisation, and delusions of grandeur ("dying like Jesus Christ") seem characteristic of this. Although he does fit into the typical "spree killer" profile of being a angry male loner, his expressions of those tendencies really go to pathological extremes.
I've worked in the U of M aggression research labs so I get internal emails, and I've seen some of my profs parry around paranoid schizophrenia too. I'm also not surprised that some news outlits have said that he was diagnosed with with an autistic spectrum disorder when he first came into the country.
I'm surprised that the mental illness aspect of the killer hasn't been discussed more. In the aftermath of this tragedy, everyone is asking "Why?", baffled at the source of his rage, incoherance, and delusions of grandeur. His actions are obviously inexcusable, but the man was also very, very ill--a fact recognized for years by many of those around him--yet he was not recieving treatment. 75.46.52.18 12:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Via NYTWhen they went to the United States, they told them it was autism, said Kim, 85, adding that the family had constant worries about Cho.
Here's another article that says he was diagnosed as autistic soon after the family's arrival in the US. BloodDoll 23:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Just remember though, you are/were talking about an 8 year old. Schizophrenia is not going to be high on your differential diagnosis for that age group. That said, at the time these event were perpetrated, starting in '05, 22years old is just about average age for the onset of schizophrenia, and to me, this guy is a classic paranoid type schizophrenic.-- JSteuernagle 03:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date
Ema Zee 04:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
It has been mentioned several times that the serial numbers were filed off of the guns he used. Don't guns have serial numbers in more than one location? 141.156.166.127 09:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I am the exact likness of cho except 2 or 3 things.
1. I'm not asian. 2. I really did have a girlfriend back then 3. I did not have down syndrome.
Other than that I was like him being treated like crap as the lowliest person on earth. In Jr high crap was treated better than me. Nerds even picked on me.
I hit puberty in highschool and for some reason I was #1 in highschool.
When I sat and ate. everyone wanted to sit with me. I never understood my childhood.
I'm really surprised that this hasn't come up in the media so far. Here's what we know:
-The two plays, "Richard McBeef" and "Mr. Brownstone" both featured adolescents who were molested by an older authority figure (step-father and teacher, respectively).
-In part of the video, he says "For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you fucked, I did it for them…"
-In another part, he says "You wanna rape us John Mark Karrs? You wanna rape us Debra Lafaves? Fuck you." (this, by the way, is almost identical to the part in Richard McBeef where he calls his stepfather "Catholic priest" and "Michael Jackson".
Given all of this, it seems pretty likely that he was either molested or had for some reason come to think that he had been. Has this possibility come up anywhere? In fact, the media silence about it almost suggests that there's some sort of ongoing investigation and that's why they're not commenting on it... Baligant 02:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)Baligant
I heard the news report that he was a sadomasochist, can anyone prove this?
"Cho had intimidated female students by photographing their legs " Evaulator 14:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that a very interesting and important fact about the character of Mr. Brownstone is that he is a rapist. Each of the other three characters, his presumable students, all say that he raped them. This gives a lot of insight into the type of life Cho Seung-hui was possibly living at home, especially when you consider that the idea of molestation by an older male figure is prevalent in both of these horrifying scripts. -- Invisibleinkling 05:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah but he could just of been a basket case chump. I would not jump to the conclusion thet he had other Demons to blame.
Regardless of whether or not you can draw any conclusions from it, the fact that that element is in the play (and mentioned repeatedly) can still be addressed. We shouldn't glaze over that horrific fact about the play just because it is particularly distrubing. If we mention that he is a math teacher (which is only stated in one line), then we should mention that he is a rapist, which is mentioned repeatedly.-- Invisibleinkling 11:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is meant to distribute accurate information, and a large part of accuracy depends on what information is displaid and what is withheld. At this time wikipedia does not disply a large part of the scripts written by Cho, and in order to present accurate infromation about these scripts, this item should not be ignored. There needs to be no conclusions drawn, but simply omitting the primary offense of Mr. Brownstone in Cho's script creates a factual blindspot. The rape of the three students in the play is addressed 4 times, and the math teacher is mentioned once. Why is it left out of the description?
I agree that the fact the students in the play claim that Mr. Brownstone raped them on several occasions is an important point and should be included. To be original research it would have to say something like 'The students in the play also claim that Mr. Brownstone raped them on several occasions, making the sexual abuse of the young by an elder male figure in a position of responsibility a recurring theme in Cho's work.' I have changed it.( DH 17:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC))
My initial reaction when first reading the play was not that Cho was referring to actual sexual abuse. I've just read the play a second time and I can see how it could go either way. The term "ass-raped" can also mean taken advantage of in general. I don't know how many times that I've heard kids say they were ass-raped until they bled by an extremely hard test or some sort of punishment. I understand that most have taken the words literally, but I wonder how many of them are familiar with current slang. The best source I could think of that mentions popular slang was urban dictionary, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ass+raped. I know that we'll never know what he actually meant, but I don't think we should make assumptions in the article. 76.187.184.203 00:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that he didn’t intent to portray Mr. Brownstone as a rapist literally. I see it that he figuratively meant that Mr. Brownstone raped them. By treating them unfairly, and since they are powerless to their teacher, it was like rape. Sheaton319 00:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm fairly certain that this section needs some significant changes regarding Cho's professors. From what I have read in the news, Professor Nikki Giovanni had him removed from her class and from that point on Lucinda Roy took the initiative to teach Cho on her own. Can someone please confirm this and add those changes? I'm not feeling up to it unfortunately, just wanted to bring it to attention. In the mean time I've removed the uncited sentence that says it was Roy who had him removed from her class (it was Giovanni). -- itistoday ( Talk) 14:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The name on his speeding ticket is Seung H. Cho, which must be his legal name. He signed the ticket Seung Cho. The car was a Kia but model was not legible. Ticket was shown on CBS. 141.156.166.127 09:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
http://www.planetblacksburg.com/2007/04/sick_internet_joke_or_real_thing.php
An anonymous user on the English imageboard, 4chan, appears to have posted the following warning Monday just before 5 a.m.
“hey /b/ I‘m going to kill people at vtech today in the name of anonymous”
-- Jake7457 20:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a working link: http://www.thestar.com/StarPM/article/204030 I think at least a mention of it should be put in the articl. It should although be stated that this is the only source that makes this claim. -- Dr. WTF 01:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
As much as I occassionally visit 4chan myself, it is not a citable source. People post random stuff in there all the time. KyuuA4 16:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This should probaly get a mention on the Inaccurate media reports of the Virginia Tech massacre article.
It's now being reported that scripts for two of the killer's plays have been released: [1] [2]
Worthy of mention in the Wiki article? Bueller 007 20:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The text of two of his writings are available on http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/
I don't know how to link them in the article though, or if they should be. Zehly 20:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
This is my first edit, so please forgive any breach of protocol. Under "5.1 Plays," I thought perhaps Edward Falco's name should link to the corresponding article. Rejay9090 07:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
i have a question....in america, mustn't one be tried and convicted of a crime before one is considered a criminal? -- emerson7 | Talk 21:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
What do you call someone that murders 32 people? I'd call them a criminal. I also call people who shoplift from stores and not caught criminals (and thus not prosecuted). I'm sure most would agree. Technically however.... you may be right. Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
...should not wikipaedia articles stick with the facts, rather than emotional impressions? -- emerson7 | Talk 22:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
So what is your suggestion? Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 22:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
If the using that box will render the same result than feel free to do so under WP:Bold. Nja247 ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Common usage of the word criminal would unquestionably fit as Nja247 says. Legal usage wouldnt fit but we have to use common expressions over legal ones, SqueakBox 23:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Squeakbox's point is well taken, but as editors, we should strive for precision of language. For example, "murder" is a legal term for a specifically-defined type of criminal homicide. "Homicide" is the killing of a human being by another. Not all homicides are criminal acts. "Killing" is a word that describes a behavior. Not all killing (even the killing of a human being) is wrongful or criminal. Therefore, it is better to refer to Mr. Cho as a "killer" (the behavioral description) rather than a "murderer" (the legal description), since the former is more precise than the latter, even though both words may be correct in common usage. pointlessforest 19:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The doctrine of res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself) would classify him as a criminal for the purposes of a civil tort claim. That's good enough for me. -- Chris Thompson 23:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Do we use the criminal infobox for someone who has been accused but not commited of a crime? I think people are letting their emotions run wild here. Remember, NPOV. Titanium Dragon 00:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Since Mr. Cho is deceased, he cannot ever be formally accused, tried or convicted of any crime that may have occurred. As a matter of law, he cannot properly be referred to as a criminal (unless he has prior felony or misdemeanor convictions). He can and should be referred to as a suspect or presumed killer. This debate harkens back to a similar controversy regarding Lee Oswald, who was never tried, but was formally charged with the murders of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit prior to his own untimely demise, and therefore may be properly referred to as an accused person. pointlessforest 18:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe suicide is also illegal, which would make him a criminal, even if we can't prove he's a "murderer". Therefore, I believe the description "criminal" is apt. Laura 06:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
First off, Laura's factual premise is false, because suicide is not a crime under the Virginia Criminal Code, a fact easily checked online. [3] Secondly, the argument itself is fallacious, for the same reasons set forth above, because even if suicide was a crime, the suspect is dead and cannot be formally charged, tried or convicted, as a matter of law. pointlessforest 19:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
For the love of God, people, stop acting emotional! I understand that this is an extremely emotional event, but when you are WRITING material for an encyclopedia, then you need to put your emotions aside as best you can. The truth is, this man is NOT a criminal in the sense of using the infobox for criminals. Yes, common sense clearly dictates that he committed a crime, but technically, he cannot be presented as such. Furthermore, it doesn't make much of a difference, beyond the emotional DESIRE to have him portrayed as a criminal. Just change it to the Person infobox. -- Ubergenius 19:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Without a conviction, I would say that it is inappropriate to use the the "Criminal" infobox. Even those committing criminal acts, like homicide, can be found not guilty if there are factors such as insanity involved. Using the "Criminal" infobox here is covert POV pushing. -- Wordbuilder 19:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Let me ask any of you who think that conviction is the standard of criminality: suppose you were arrested, tried, and convicted for an arson you did not commit. Would you be an arsonist, in virtue of your conviction? Of course not. Why? Because you had not actually violated a law, regardless of your conviction. Well, that is the standard of criminality, folks - whether or not you have broken the law. One is presumed innocent until proven guilty as a matter of how the government treats you, but this does nothing substantive to alter the nature of your actions, it merely establishes an official account of them so that society has a basis for determining how it should deal with you. You do not have to be a convict to be a criminal, any more than you have to have a Social Security number to be a human being. Arguing otherwise is to presume a false premise: that whether or not one is innocent or guilty of a crime is entirely a matter of a declaration by a legal authority, be it a judge or a jury. I think we can all see the problems with that point of view. In any case, he sent a package to the media admitting that he did it, and this can reasonably be considered a confession.
I should add that those accusing others of "acting emotional" should consider whether or not their zeal for a false standard of technical accuracy might not come under the same heading. The criminal infobox is completely appropriate for this article. Hieron 04:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
When someone dies in the process of committing a crime, obviously, no trial can be held. But from a legal standpoint, if that person is considered by police to be obvious perpetrator, the case is closed and he is assumed to be guilty unless there is evidence that suggests another suspect or casts doubt on his involvement. The "reasonable doubt" test does not apply as it would in a jury trial; conversely, there is also a somewhat higher standard of proof than there would be in an ordinary arrest, the reason being that authorities need to be certain that there are no other suspects. Under U.S. law, there is no doubt that Cho should be considered a criminal unless further evidence is forthcoming. Bradrules 07:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless he was dead while murdering people, you'd have a valid point about a non-criminal status. You had enough witnesses and proof to show a crime was committed even before a trial, even enough so to claim someone a criminal. While he couldn't have a legal criminal title written clearly on paper within such a tight timeframe, your skipping an entire step of criminal justice as it's beyond ignorant to assume Cho wouldn't be considered a criminal. I fail to see a reason to the defense of this obvious fact. The criminal infobox is correctly placed. -- BeggarEthics 07:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Crime occurs when someone breaks the law. Did he break the law/laws undoubtedly? Yes indeed, the article wouldn't exist otherwise. Thereofore, he clearly was a criminal.-- Svetovid 23:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Gosh, would someone puuullease fix the article so that it says FIRST NAME first (hence the reason why it's called a "first name") and his LAST NAME last??? Cho is a very VERY common last name, and even if the press and the police can't help it, at LEAST wiki should be consistent and make suue his FIRST NAME is written first.
interesting how hes been in usa for 15yrs, yet he still puts his family name first
I agree that the title of the article should read Seung-hui Cho. I am familiar with name order in East Asian countries and Hungary, but when people from those countries live here and are longstanding part of society, they do as the Romans do. That's why there's Kazuhiro Sasaki, Ming-Na Wen, Se Ri Pak, and Zsa Zsa Gabor instead of Sasaki Kazuhiro, Wen Ming Na, Pak Se Ri, and Gabor Zsa Zsa.
Having lived in an area in the US with a large Korean population, my Korean classmates always followed the Western-order when using English. In Korean, of course, they employed their usual order. This list of Korean Americans confirms this.
I hope this is changed for the sake of consistency and accuracy, but I am not sure if this is likely since the media (and someone screwed up, and now everyone's following this order) is popularizing this order. Google News gives 2,700+ hits for Cho Seung-Hui while 49 (ABC News among them) for Seung-Hui Cho. ---- Chris 01:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Interesting, Kvasir, it does seem plausible that the media thought he was a Korean exchange student on a student visa. As for HappyCamper - even norsident aliens here in the US follow western order when using English. -- Chris 02:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This is pretty absurd... wiki has a chance to go against the mainstream media, which imho seriously messed up when they listed his surname first. For crying out loud this guy has lived in the US since 1992. Moreover, we should name him according to how he himself preferred to be named. Look at his plays, he lists himself as Seung Cho. Arguments that cite Korean name orders are severely flawed because their base assumption is that Cho is South Korean. HE IS NOT. This guy was KOREAN-AMERICAN. If we change his name to Cho Seung-Hui we should be consistant and change the name oif EVERY American of East Asian descent on wiki to reflect this.
Someone change it already, as I am myself starting to see major news outlets use SEUNG-HUI CHO. This is getting annoying already. Secondgen 16:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Associated Press: "Cho's name was given as "Cho Seung-Hui" by police and school officials earlier this week. But the the South Korean immigrant family said their preference was 'Seung-Hui Cho.'" Jorobeq 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
someone please change it to Seung-Hui Cho, i can't.
wow how did people find the hanja version of his name so quickly?
Can we double check if the Hanja is correct? How about 趙承熙? -- HappyCamper 01:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Cho Seung-Hui in Hanja is 赵承熙, not 曹承辉.
We still have no reliable sources, but the hanja have been reinserted again. I will keep removing them unless someone provides a cite to a Korean newspaper (NOT a Chinese newspaper, for the reason I mentioned above, that their transcriptions are just wild guesses) which uses the Hanja. Thanks, cab 23:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
曹 is not a common family name in Korea and the family name 趙 is the 7th largest in S.Korea. 承熙 also common name in Korea. Let me example some. Lee Seung-man, the 1st president of Korea is 이승만(李承晩). Famous Park Jeong-hee, another president of Korea is 박정희(朴正熙). -- Queenmillennia 01:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not work based on a single authorized/preferred source rule such as "Korean newspapers but not Chinese newspapers". With ANY source there will be legitimate questions about its accuracy, but this does not mean that information is to be withheld until it has been confirmed by "official" sources. Such questions must be resolved by comparison with other sources and review of the inherent consistency/likelihood of each piece of information.
Korean papers generally do not publish any Chinese characters for personal names except where the individual is very exalted. We should not hold our breath waiting for Korean newspapers to give us the hanja, but go ahead and publish what REASONABLE, plausible information we have.
It is true that Chinese newspapers often make up Chinese names for convenience, and that such renditions cannot be regarded as authentic (they are generally labeled as "phonetic renditions"). In this specific case, the prestigious World Journal (Chinese newspaper published in the U.S.) originally rendered the name as 趙承熙, but switched to 曹丞禧 in later reports. Since this change is glaring to Chinese readers, it is reasonable to assume that the latter version is based on better information (probably Korean community in the U.S. which coincidentally includes numerous ethnic Chinese from South Korea who are more astute in their understanding of Chinese characters than Korea's media). It is also inherently plausible because the characters are far less common than those of the original version yet fit the phonetic Korean spelling WikiFlier 02:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
No, World Journal was first, I cited them in my original amendment. Please do not delete the hanja unless you have BETTER information. The information we have now is good (1) based on the timeline (see above, and also check the revision history); (2) comports with the phonetic spelling; (3) uses relatively rare characters that are less likely to have been chosen as "phonetic standins" than the more generic, "Korean-sounding" 趙承熙. (The last two characters are "Korean-sounding" to a Chinese reader because they correspond to the "Syng" and "Hee" in the names of former South Korean presidents Syngman Rhee and Park Chung Hee, respectively. Both characters are commonly seen in Korean given names.) WikiFlier 02:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
source: http://china.donga.com/gb/srv/service.php3?biid=2007041937588 (in Chinese)
It is a Korean newspaper and shall be the correct translation.
I have made the change since there are two major Korean newspapers confirmed his Hanja name. Wei Jiang 06:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Just an FYI, the the title that one editor cited has now changed apparently. Instead of "維州理工冷血殺手:韓裔學生曹丞禧", it's now "維州理工冷血殺手:韓裔學生趙承禧". On top of that, 青島日報 (Sing Tao Daily Newspaper), another Chinese newspaper says that his name is neither 曹丞禧 or 趙承禧, but 趙承熙. I'm no expert on Korean names since I'm not Korean, obviously. So I wouldn't know which characters are more likely to be his name. Even if one of the characters are more popular than the other ones, that doesn't mean that there are no chances that the other ones are actually correct. Personally, I think only his parents are the only reliable sources out there, since they chose the name for Cho, and unless someone can contact them and ask them, Cho's Hanja name should be left out.
I suggest removing the Hanja name until someone has first-hand hard evidence. Wikikin 06:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone has used a Chinese source to put hanja on the korean version of the page. Not sure what the foot note and reference says, but in the discussion someone listed all the possibilities and combination the hanja could be rendered based on the hangul. http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%ED%86%A0%EB%A1%A0:%EC%A1%B0%EC%8A%B9%ED%9D%AC -- Kvasir 07:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The date(s) listed for the purchase of the gun(s) need to be vetted, and in the meantime, an EDIT needs to be made - at least regarding the section that says the 22cal gun was purchased 'a WEEK prior to the shooting'. Although these are the dates originally reported this am, I have read 3+ news articles that list New Information quoted as being "from Investigators" or "ATF Officials" that now give the dates of the gun purchases as March 13, 2007 for the Glock and ** February (some actually say 'Feb 9') for the 22 cal gun **. I am not registered. Can someone do this please? thx 172.165.109.63 02:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
SECOND REQUEST. Can someone with EDIT capability please remove the erroneous 'purchased 22cal gun a Week Prior to the killings' statement ..... please? Thx.
172.165.109.63
02:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
THIRD REQUEST. Sorry, but each time I read it, it grates on my nerves and since I don't have the authority/ability to correct the error .. I need some Help please. It is in the paragraph several sentences below the first mention of the Glock purchase, with no date given, where it says the second gun, the 22, was purchased A WEEK PRIOR TO THE MURDERS. ThxMUCH. 172.165.109.63 02:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC) BeachBlonde
Thank you, HAPPY CAMPER! I just read it. Now I can bring it down to the frantic.
Is the source article correct (VA Tech Massacre)? 172.165.109.63 02:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
Thanks again HAPPY CAMPER. Very much appreciate your help. Cheers - 172.165.109.63 03:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
I added in the reference to the fact that he did not reveal he'd been involuntarily committed to a psychiatric institution, which would have disqualified him from purchasing the handguns, and that it didn't show up on the background check. Esprix 02:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
(His favourite song that he listened to over and over.) Evaulator 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is the mention that he listened to this song/band at all relevant? I don't think so. Also, no source is listed. 142.161.165.178 02:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Another thing - I'm not sure that the song was Shine - I was watching the interview w/ his roomates, and I remember it was collective soul, but I don't think it was shine...
It was most certainly Shine.
24.141.134.77
05:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
He apparently wrote the lyrics of the song on his dorm room walls in pen or pencil, as reported by his roommates in the interview.
EDIT: On CNN (Larry King I think) they interviewed his roomates. They mentioned that he would play the song "Shine" by Collective Soul at all hours of the day. It would often wake them up at night. In addition, he would also write the words on the walls of their suite. I think the song was dear to him, and that he may have identified with the lyrics.
"Shine"
Give me a word/ Give me a sign/ Show me where to look/ Tell me what will I find/ Lay me on the ground/ Fly me in the sky/ Show me where to look/ Tell me what will I find/ Oh, heaven let your light shine down/
Love is in the water/ Love is in the air/ Show me where to go/ Tell me will love be there/ Teach me how to speak/ Teach me how to share/ Teach me where to go/ Tell me will love be there/ Oh, heaven let your light shine down/
http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/music/archives/2007/04/collective_soul.php
Should we add a section titled: "Evidence of Premeditation" or "Evidence of Planning/Advance Planning"?
I think this is a relevant, timely topic that is central to the issues at hand -- ie, what could have been done to prevent/avert this tragedy. It seems clear that the VA Tech President will be taking much heat for decisions made/not made and much gun controversy politics will use this as a platform for their divergent opinions. Evidence of premediation and his efforts towards planning are central to the issue and can be NPOV ... or used as REF in conjunction with the political commentary.
What do you all think? There is SO MUCH evidence coming out with regard to the actions taken by Cho to meticulously plan out this massacre ... I am of the mind that listing it out (the facts, cited) will not only be valuable for reference sourcing, but also for both future legislation/policy/planning AND for emotional catharsis and healing (although the latter should not matter here on wiki ... nonetheless it is true, and it would be an additional kindness). Just looking at the chain of events in cold, hard facts of premeditation would be of scholarly value, as well as the obvious. Anyone want to take it on? 172.165.109.63 03:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC) BeachBlonde
No one is answering yet, so I will start. It could be in a date/timeline format, or just a listing of actions/preparation steps. Perhaps like this:
Fall 2005 - Cho writes the play 'Richard McBeef', a shocking and disturbing account of pedophilia, violence and murder, unnerving both his classmates and teacher. Many students discuss Cho's aberrant behavior and even debate whether or not Cho could be 'one of those School Shooters'. Cho's teacher reports him to the VA Tech Administration.
Fall 2006 - Cho submits additional writings that cause deep concern. Cho's creative writing instructor ends up having to take multiple actions that lead to Cho being removed from the class, being reported to VA Tech Administration, and referred to counseling. Cho's teacher additionally and notably reports him to POLICE OFFICIALS, who respond that UNDER THE LAW, they can do nothing based on PERCEIVED INTENTIONS AND OPINIONS and their hands are tied until Cho takes action or volunteers to seek help. Cho's teacher is so concerned that she risks her own safety and offers to teach Cho 'one on one' in order to keep him under close observation.
2006 - Winter 2007 - Cho stalks several women on campus, takes pictures of females on campus without their permission, and even starts a fire in his dorm.
March - April 2007 - Cho is stopped by police for speeding in two separate incidents.
Feb 9, 2007 - Cho purchases a 22cal gun from a local VA pawnshop.
Mar 13, 2007 - Cho purchases a Glock-19 semi-automatic handgun from a Blacksburg gun shop, along with 2 boxes of what was termed 'practice' ammo.
Apr 9, 2007 - Cho calls in a Bomb Threat to VA Tech campus admin
(?date?) - Cho calls in a second Bomb Threat to campus admin presumably to test campus security response.
Apr 16, 2007 - 5:00am EDT - Cho is seen by dormmate, 'going into the bathroom, dressed in a tshirt and boxer shorts, to put in his contact lenses and complete his morning routine of applying lotion to his face and inserting his contact lenses'. The dormmate reported that Cho was his 'normal silent self - with no expression of emotion of any kind on his face'.
7:15am EDT - Cho is seen and heard arguing with victim #1, Emily (lastname needed), on the 4th floor of her dorm at AJ. When RA 'Stack' Ryan Clark hears the commotion and comes to investigate, he is shot in the neck by Cho, who also leaves Emily dead. Cho exits AJ Dorm with his weapon(s) seemingly without notice. Emily's boyfriend (name needed) was seen exiting AJ dorm and responding police/security focused on him as the primary suspect while Cho quietly slipped back to his own dorm room. Emily and her boyfriend were known to have been shooting at the practice range the week prior to the killings, which added to the confusion and incorrect suspect identification.
7:30am EDT - 9:00am EDT - While Emily's boyfriend is being detained and questioned by police and campus security, Cho finishes his final preparations. In his dorm room, Cho leaves a long, multi-paged, rambling note, accusing 'others' for causing him to assassinate the 50+ students and faculty he targeted (ultimately killing 32 and wounding 19). He also prepares for the killing spree by wearing a distinctive 'costume' made up of 2 vests, one of which he used to carry and conceal an arsenal of ammunition. Chains which Cho used to trap the students inside Norris Hall were packed in his backpack, leaving the unused sections behind. Cho then heads out across campus and the drill field to the Engineering Building at Norris Hall.
9:00am EDT - Students report seeing Cho enter Norris Hall. Several students state that Cho 'poked his head into the classroom(s) several times, as if he was looking for someone'. It is unknown at this time if reports that Cho was 'looking for his girlfriend' are accurate, was something untrue - yet believed to be true by Cho in a deluded state, or was part of Cho's ruse to 'case' Norris Hall and further plan and refine his precision attack on the unarmed, unsuspecting students and faculty, who were coming to the close of their first classes of the morning.
....... and so on and so on.
Comments?
BTW, I cannot add to or edit a locked page/stub, so I will need someone else to add this for me please if you feel it is warranted. 172.165.109.63 03:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
"Premeditation" is a legal term with a very specific meaning and its use should be avoided here; it refers to a particular aspect of an accused's mental state, one of the elements of a crime that must be proven by the state beyond a reasonable doubt. Since Mr. Cho is deceased, he may never be formally accused, tried or convicted of any crime that may have occurred on April 16, 2007, and therefore "premeditation" is irrelevant and possibly misleading. However, a section that sets forth, in narrative form, the known facts (with proper citations) that reasonably suggest that these events were planned, or part of some behavioral scheme, would be advisable. A distinction needs to be drawn between evidence of planning and that of motive. In my opinion, any timeline should be in a separate section, or shown in graphic form or better yet, left out altogether. pointlessforest 19:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
According to an AC interview on CNN, Cho had an imaginary girlfriend named "Jelly" who referred to him as "Spanky." I added it to the article, but it was reverted.... Did anyone else hear this on CNN and can corroborate? I haven't found a source yet.... -- Carthaginienses 3:51 AM, 18 April, 2007 (UTC)
I have changed Cho's name throughout the article to the American given/surname order, and will be moving the article to Seung-hui Cho, leaving Cho Seung-hui as a redirect, unless anyone objects. -- Dynaflow 04:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
near the end it should be 300 level not 3000, right? 70.20.232.243 04:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I second. 300 is the correct level for VA Tech. The 'thousand-place' levels are used at the University of Florida (my alma mater) and some other schools, but not this one. I cannot edit. Someone will have to make this change please. Thx 172.165.109.63 04:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
why do we need to have his sister's name in the article? I removed it. Janviermichelle 04:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I worry for her (safety et al). she is a Princeton grad with a US Govt contract job (with security clearance) at McNeil (great job, likely stellar resume/cv) .... and has clearly worked hard to get a plum position. Her brother's actions (not her own) may well destroy her life. Seung should NOT have the opportunity to claim a 33rd life, imho.
172.165.109.63
05:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
JanvierMichelle, I can't believe you. The detail is reported in the press. The fact that he has a sister is notable about him.
Her name has been quoted in press reports - And 172.165.109.63, no. Her name has already been leaked to the press. WhisperToMe 05:06, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought I was implying that sad fact in my comment (how else would I have known all that private info), however, we don't need to WIKI her ... reminding the entire Planet Earth of her name and personal details. People will forget one day and those FEW News articles will disappear in the massive media blitz and the next 'big 24 hour news break'. So we should NOT be irresponsible and it ought to be REMOVED IMMEDIATELY.
172.165.109.63
05:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
In that case, I will keep her nameless for the moment :) WhisperToMe 06:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah! Who are we to decide what to hide. In my quest to know more about this person, I'd like to know the complete bio of his sister and parents.
WHISPER: I agree that lying is an offense (both by ommission and by direct falsehood) however, we as sinful human beings are ALL GUILTY OF IT and that does not allow any excuse or relief from condemnation (hence why we need a savior, but I will save the obvious and avoid hyperbole). By your own account, WIKI AND the MSM are Fatally Flawed since the names of Cho's parents are not included (as they have been reported - I know BOTH of their Full Names AND the name of their business AND their full address and phone numbers). This info has either been deleted or not reported/added (their names, etc.) and WELL it SHOULD NOT. By all means, state that Cho had a sister/sibling -- even say she is a Princeton alumna, but DO NOT link her name to INfAMOUS Notariety by linking her one and ONLY Name to the all time worst spree killer in the US, her brother. It is not for us to ruin her life and although WIKI must be NROP, cruelty doesn't apply and we must be responsible. In a court of law, the sister could SUE WIKI for publishing and linking her name to a CRIME she did NOT commit ... for example, if she loses/lost her (amazing, hard won) job and can show cause ... bye bye WIKI Funds.
172.165.109.63
06:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)BeachBlonde
A link to a story about his sister has been added, and although less blatent than directly stating her name, it still seems like a violation of her privacy. Her name is not relevent, and has the potential to inflict emense consequences on an innocent person. Anyone who doesnt beleive that there are people crazy enough to pose a threat to someone who has done nothing wrong hasnt been following what they're editing. I would like to request that any references to any articles that are so tasteless and vulturelike as to give his sister's name and place of employment be deleted. We may have a responsibility as editors to present the facts, but we have a responsibility as humans to not make the lives of the people affected by this tragidy any harder then they already are. And I do not see how not including her biography, or any links to it detracts from the article in any way. I'd delete it myself but I'm new, and therefore blocked from editing. Sierrarose23 07:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
By my lack of an actual username, I imagine all will realize that I'm by no means an established community member. As such, I'm certainly not familiar with Wikipedia protocol pertinent to such situations. That said, I do have to admit that I concur with those offering a humanitarian criticism regarding the inclusion of her name in this article, and feel compelled to weigh in - for whatever it's worth, most likely nothing.
To those arguing that her identity is crucial to his bibliographic entry, I partially agree. The fact that he does have an older, arguably very successful sibling may be pertinent, and merits inclusion. I don't believe that her name, however, contributes anything of significance. Considering the potential ramifications of directly identifying her, I feel very strongly that her name should continue to be omitted. Of course, as this is a very recent, naturally ongoing event, things may unfold in such a way that her identification is necessary. From the presently available materials, however, nothing indicates that it contributes much of interest or relevance to the understanding of her brother's motives or mental state.
Though I forget where exactly I viewed it, one article or video that I caught described her as "palpably distraught" when contacted for interviews. This woman has done nothing wrong, and unless the ensuing proceedings indicate it necessary, I have to say I don't believe that her name should be avoidably tarnished.
Again, since I'm not an official member, please take these comments with a grain of salt. They're just the thoughts of a guy who isn't really all that familiar with Wiki policies...
Thanks for your time in reading this, and hopefully your consideration...
Her name and place of work have been re added. Could someone with edit ability please remove it? the "he has a sister who attends an Ivy League university" line that was previously in the article seemed to work quite well, simultaniously protecting her identity, and giving the information that was relevent to this article (ie that his sister is successful.)
It is downright irresponsible of us to give the amount of detail about her that is currently present in this article.
Sierrarose23
05:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I logged in (something I swore I wouldn't do again) to re-take the sister's name out. Unless there is a CLEAR and DIRECT connection between the sister and her brother's aberrant behavior THE SISTER'S NAME MUST BE LEFT OUT. She is not a part of this tragedy. Ninodeluz 12:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC) NIN
There is no problem stating that he had a sister. There is a very large problem telling people what her name is as knowing her name bears exactly no relevance to the subject at hand. Ninodeluz 15:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC) NIN
QUOTE from the Wikipedia page: Thomas Jefferson was born on 13 April 1743 (Gregorian N.S) into a wealthy Virginia family, the third of ten children. His mother was Jane Randolph, daughter of Isham Randolph, and a cousin of Peyton Randolph. Jefferson's father was Peter Jefferson, a planter and surveyor who owned plantations in Albemarle County (Shadwell, then Edge Hill, Virginia.)
Where are the names of his nine siblings? Jefferson is a much more important figure and we don't list his siblings' names. There is NO reason beyond purience to list the name of Cho's sister. Ninodeluz 16:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC) NIN
The main reason that the nine siblings are left unnamed is because it would become very repetitive. There are nine names of limited importance. However, in this situation, there is only one sibling; it would not become repetitive to place her name in the article. Also, the analogy cannot be used in its entirety because nobody in Cho's family is listed, as many of Jefferson's are. This is probably because of lack of information at this early date, but it is still an ommission that negates the analogy.
Emiellaiendiay 03:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
from what im reading, you people think that his sister's name should be there because it's 'lying' if it isnt. well then, what does his sister have to do with any of this? based on this logic, are you saying that we should then put up his whole family tree including his father, mother, relatives, etc, on this page for everyone to see? remove his sister's name, most importantly to protect the family's safety and also because i do not see what his sister has to do with an article on himself. - Howe Law, 21 April 2007
Is it necessary to keep this sensational tone in the Wikipedia, apparently so concerned with acuracy, approprietness of presented materials? I find it sickening to see, just days after the whole tragedy, this new Wikipedia page eagerly labelled "mass murderer". Anybody interested in exploring deeper than 1/4 inch under the surface? Plus the respect for the family and the dead killer himself (a human being after all...). I am aware my words might sound strange, nevertheless if Wikipedia strives to become a respectable source of information, perhaps it could apply its severe editing policies where is needed.-- Traveler273 17:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Cho Seung-Hui was a Korean citizen not an American citizen. Among Asians, in the US both the Asian (Korean and Chinese) order of family name is used and the Americanized way. Usually the order becomes Americanized due to the way that the forms are set up. The family name is important and people are generally called by Mr. Cho (Cho sonsangnim) with the first name rarely being used. It is not wrong to use the Asian order because he was STILL a Korean citizen as were his family members. Only the sister used the Americanized order. I can appreciate that Asians want to minimize his "Asianess" because it is embarassing to them. However, the fact remains that he was Asian. Probably some of the difficulty he had was BECAUSE he was Asian and did not fit in with his peers. His older sister, because she was older and a girl had less difficulty. I STRONGLY feel that the order should be Cho Seung-Hui. It becomes very confusing to read an article when there are two versions of the names. If the aunt, mother, father, etc. are listed in the Asian way (especially those still IN Korea MUST be listed this way) then for continuity in the article, the name should be KEPT in the Asian way. Cherylyoung 16:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I propose a new poll on the question of whether or not this article should be moved from "Cho Seung-Hui" to "Seung-Hui Cho." Media outlets such as MSNBC, CNN, AP, and a number of others have now switched to Seung-Hui Cho after the family announced that this was the order they used. So shall it be Cho Seung-Hui or Seung-Hui Cho? Many arguments for both sides have been articulated above, and I only propose this new poll because some who weighed in earlier on the talk page might want to rethink their votes given the apparent switch by much of the media. Add your vote here. -- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
{{Editprotected}}
I'm not saying that Seung-hui was a "true hikikomori," but consider the Hikikomori Contoversy article. Red Plum 01:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to list him under this category? He's hardly a notable playwright. Proserpine 08:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you. Secondgen 08:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It would be one thing if he was a killer who merely wrote plays on the side. But, the fact that he wrote plays that apparently revealed his mental condition and alerted teachers shows that he is notable for writing the plays, and therefore is a playwright. WhisperToMe 16:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
WhisperToMe 16:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
If you want me to beat the horse into more pulp, I can use a dictionary entry. "play·wright /ˈpleɪˌraɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pley-rahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun a writer of plays; dramatist." From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/playwright
If someone writes a play, he is automatically a playwright according to this dictionary definition. WhisperToMe 16:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
-- Ali'i 16:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Main Entry: 1no·ta·ble Pronunciation: 'nO-t&-b&l, for 2 also 'nä- Function: adjective 1 a : worthy of note : REMARKABLE b : DISTINGUISHED, PROMINENT
As you can see, he is not notable at all in the discussion of playwright. Secondgen 16:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Bueller 007, if "nobody gives two craps about his plays," then:
"There is nothing remarkable, distinguishing, prominent, and worthy of his play."
I think we are missing the point, folks. Secondgen, please read the plays and the media reports created about the plays. What distinguishes the plays:
WhisperToMe 17:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Whispertome, you fucking idiot. Cho seunghui is not a playwright in the first place. Writing a play as a class assignment doesn't make you a playwright. You can't go to Broadway and say, "I'm a playwright since I wrote this, accept me."
It would be quite useful if someone knows which arm he wrote Ismail Ax on. Then we could determine further whether or not it is religious. I don't know, but is there a religion which strongly enforced which hand is better?
If you don't understand what I mean, here is an example.
People in the past always thought left was bad. So if you were left handed, they would try to "convert" you to be right handed.
I heard this from my history teacher (secondary school teacher)
Nubbles 18:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It could also be to make sure that everyone knew that he sent the package to NBC, as he has the sender name as such. 209.43.114.77 23:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, did it occur to anyone that the word 'mail' is in that name? Johan de Ruiter
Although speculation, the anagram of Ismail Ax is "Mix Alias". Might have more meaning to someone who know Cho, or might not mean anything at all...
Also, I consider it likely he was right handed. In the photos, he held the Glock in his right hand. The Glock has stronger recoil, which is why he would use his right hand to fire.
Not much to go by, methinks. Personally I'd think that he'd use one pistol at a time. Recoil can be quite shocking for someone unprepared. Plus reloading both pistols at one time is quite a hassle. However, this topic isn't really for me to speculate on. Pzychotix 15:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems like having a different section for each of the different writings that have been discussed so far in the media is unnecessary. I think to have a section about Attributed Writings does little more than suggest that this man was some kind of tortured artist, when the reality is that he was completely lacking talent in the area (as mentioned in the article). Also, these plays were written as assigned work for a class. Further, it is contradictory to have an entire section about his writing, only to include a comment by his teacher calling them "adolescent and silly". In my opinion, it would do more than enough to say that he wrote violent and disturbing things -- this could be included under the Behavior section. Bentobias 19:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Was Cho a Muslim? Ismail a very prominent name in the Koran. He's a prophet and the son of Ibrahim (Abraham in the bible). Seems like people are walking on eggshells to avoid using the word 'Muslim' anywhere on this page.
I heard he's a Christian.
He's not a Muslim. CNN interviewed his former pastor briefly last night. 24.141.134.77 19:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, he had expressed some complaints against Christianity in one of his notes. 129.7.131.198 19:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)gnoko
Even so, there is nothing to indicate that he was a Muslim. However, there is strong evidence that, at some point in his life, he was a Christian. I don't think his religious views are particularly relevant though. 24.141.134.77 19:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but Cho was motivated by and even quotes Osama Bin Laden and 9/11 in his manifesto. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18186064/ His writings certainly seem to indicate he is a muslim. He also says "Now that you have gone a hummer safari on me like fucking Bush".
He comes from a christian family. In his video, he compared himself to Jesus Christ. Malamockq 05:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
==> You edits and guesses of Cho's redacted words are assumptions, and not supports.
It really says a lot about right-wing bloggers' level of education that they think the only meaning of "Ishmael" is Muslim-related. Hasn't anyone read Moby Dick? "Ishmael" is also the name of the main character in James Fenimore Cooper's "The Prairie". Being that Cho was an English major, he was likely acquainted with at least one of these works, and could have imagined himself as an iconoclastic and misunderstood hero.
Quite apart from the lack of significance that ought to be ascribed to the Ismail/Ishmael point, there is direct evidence that Cho was not a Muslim, at least not any kind of orthodox one. He said: "Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people." Most Muslims do not believe that Jesus died at all, on the basis of a statement in the Qur'an; see Islamic view of Jesus. -- Anon.
Forget the semantics, this man was clearly acculturated in the US. He arrived at the age of eight and died there when he was 23. Fifteen-odd formative years ... Nitpicking over how to describe him overlooks the fact that this psychopath was probably shaped more by the country he grew up in than the one he left as a little kid. Johnno2 14:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cho_Seung-hui" He was from South Korea, and he was a legal resident in Virginia, but is it correct to call him a Korean-American? I didn't remove it. Someone else can do it. I am not sure. -- Kalmia 01:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
we had this talk yesterday and today (look in the archive). refer to [ [9]] to see that the tag 'American' does not mean citizen of America. Also see [ [10]] to note that the category includes those who immigrated from Korea. Harlock jds 02:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't reference internal wikipidia sites for evidence. From the Oxford American dictionary definition of Asian American: "an American who is of Asian (chiefly Far Eastern) descent." That's it. Period. It seems basic, but some people don't get it. You have to be an American to be an Asian American. Penser 04:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)penser It is not important to have him in either Asian or Korean categories. This may be true but it is not relevant information. 75.3.2.207 04:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Of course Seung Cho is a Korean-American. Korean American is a term for an ethnic minority, regardless of citizenship. -- Chris 05:49, 19 April 2007 PS: And why in the world are we relying on a dictionary for a question about ethnicity? From an anthropological standpoint, he would fit every criterion to be a Korean American.
Speaking of anthopology, can someone please unearth a similar discussion section out of the Archive? I have a major case of deja vu here. -- Kvasir 08:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The continuing removal of this category is unfortunate. I thought this had already been resolved. Cho was a permanent, legal resident of the United States, who had lived here since he was eight years old without cessation. He was raised in this country, went to schools here, spoke English with an American accent, and attended university here. As a permanent, legal resident he was afforded all the rights U.S. citizens are, with the exception of voting. Whether or not he was a U.S. citizen is a straw man: as I've pointed out before, in the last discussion of this, a Korean person born in the U.S. while his parents are on vacation but who leaves the country as an infant, never to return, is a U.S. citizen by virtue of having been born in the country. In that case such a person would be a Korean American without objection? (No one has yet addressed this example.) Someone of Korean heritage who is raised in the U.S. and lives in the U.S. as an adult is a Korean American in every sense of the word. To suggest otherwise is to demonstrate a misunderstanding both of American history and of immigration to the United States, particularly when it includes being raised in the U.S. Moncrief 12:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a transcript of the video he sent to NBC News? 209.244.43.215 01:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I carefully read thru the mental health form. [18]
A police officer cannot declare someone mentally ill. What they can do (generally speaking) is-- detain someone (so that they get assessed by a mental health professional) if they:
Some jurisdictions have a few other criteria.
Both CNN and ABC got the details wrong. It seems obvious to me (based on the comments about mood and affect) that the psychiatrist was under the impression the man was depressed. There were no indications he was going to harm someone else (based on the assessment). The psychiatrist didn't think he need to be held involuntarily at that time (i.e. he wasn't a risk to himself or to others based on that assessment)-- and could be sent for out-patient care. Nephron T| C 02:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Apparently Cho was involuntarily detained because he was believed to be suicidal. The conclusion by the psychiatrist was that he posed an imminent danger to himself but not to others, and that this condition was to be treated with outpatient therapy. Look at the findings and conditions on page 6. The document only pertains to Cho being admitted for psychiatric care. It does not contain assessments for his time while committed or anything concerning his discharge. Presumably he would not have been discharged until he was found to no longer represent a threat to himself. No homicidal tendencies were noted at the time of his admittance. 71.205.216.122 04:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Andy says in the NBC interview that he was "weirded out" by the appearance of Cho taking photos in his doorway late at night. Possibly Andy was partially unclothed at the time. Andy also speculates that he did not know what else Cho might be doing there at that time of night besides the photos, implying that it might be other prurient activity. I believe that this adds up to possible-homoeroticism, implied by Andy. If true, the homoeroticism could be a potentially important personality trait of Cho's that should be mentioned. uriel8 (talk) 02:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Andy is talking about male-male prurient activity. The word for that is homoeroticism or at the very least possible-homoeroticism. uriel8 (talk) 03:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)