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![]() | The contents of the Seshat's emblem page were merged into Seshat on 6 April 2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
It looks like a cannabis leaf above her head to me. See
Cannabis was certainly known in ancient Egypt. From
"Cannabis is mentioned as a medication in the following ancient Egyptian medical texts: Ramesseum III Papyrus (1700 B.C.E.), Eber’s Papyrus (1600 B.C.E.), the Berlin Papyrus (1300 B.C.E.), and the Chester Beatty VI Papyrus (1300 B.C.E.). The Eber’s Papyrus is the oldest known complete medical textbook in existence. Most scholars believe that it is copy of a much earlier text, probably from around 3100 B.C.E."
The linked web page may not be good enough for a Wikipedia reference though.
When I look at papyrus plants they don't look like what is above her head. See:
So, are there any ancient Egyptian texts or carvings that say that the leaf above her head is supposed to be papyrus? Or is it only the best guess of scholars? That needs to be referenced in the article. Here is something found from a Google Books search. It says it is not known what is represented by what is above her head. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 21:38, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Many Egyptologists have long speculated about the emblem which Seshat wore as her head dress. Sir Alan Gardiner described it in his still category-leading “Egyptian Grammar” as a “conventionalized flower (?) surmounted by horns”. His question mark after “flower” reflects the fact that there is no likely flower which resembles this design. Others have called it a “star surmounted by a bow”, but stars in the ancient Egyptian convention had five points, not seven like the image in Seshat's emblem. This number was so important that it caused king Tuthmosis III (1479 to 1425 BCE) to call this goddess Sefkhet-Abwy, or "She of the seven points". |
I have just removed an image of a shabti box which claimed to contain an image of the hieroglyph which represents Seshat (Gardiner sign list reference R20 and R21).
In actual fact it is the hieroglyph of a sail (Gardiner sign list reference P5) and it is part of the name of the owner of the shabti : Henut Mehyt Tjaw ("Mistress of the North Wind").
Yaqubhor ( talk) 22:01, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
From http://wikoweedia.com/seshat.html is this:
I need to find the original sources for this info. But it looks less and less to me like we are talking about papyrus above her head. I have yet to find a source for it being papyrus.
From http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/sefkhetabwy.htm is this:
Again, a cord, not a papyrus reed. Why would one write on a cord or reed? It looks more like she is counting the number of knots in a cord in some type of measuring and/or ceremony. See: knotted cord and rope stretcher.
From the 2005 book The Egyptian Revival: Ancient Egypt as the Inspiration for Design Motifs in the West is this:
From Huh (god):
From http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/foundation.htm - Egypt: The Foundation Ceremony For Ancient Egyptian Religious Buildings.
From Palm branch (symbol)
From Ancient Egypt; Foundation Rituals. Stretching the cord:
The Temple of Edfu was built between between 237 and 57 BCE. This was long after Pharaoh Tuthmosis III (1479 to 1425 B.C.E.) and his name for Seshat: Sefkhet-Abwy. See farther up in this talk section.
Claims of Seshat having a papyrus plant above her head are questionable. I think it is more likely that the stretching of the cord, was based on a knotted hemp cord. That knotted cord looks like its knots were incorporated into the merkhet in the Seshat sculpture. That became symbolic of measurement in general including measuring time, years of the Pharaoh, eternity, heaven, etc.. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 10:40, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
(unindent). From http://www.recoveredscience.com/const201seshathempmath.htm is this:
Many Egyptologists have long speculated about the emblem which Seshat wore as her head dress. Sir Alan Gardiner described it in his still category-leading “ Egyptian Grammar” as a “conventionalized flower (?) surmounted by horns”. His question mark after “flower” reflects the fact that there is no likely flower which resembles this design. Others have called it a “star surmounted by a bow”, but stars in the ancient Egyptian convention had five points, not seven like the image in Seshat's emblem. This number was so important that it caused king Tuthmosis III (1479 to 1425 BCE) to call this goddess Sefkhet-Abwy, or "She of the seven points". Also, in some detailed pictures of Seshat the canopy above that seven-pointed "flower?" does not at all resemble "horns" or a "bow". There is no need for such groping speculations because the various elements in Seshat's emblem simply depict the tools of her geometer's trade in the hieroglyphic manner. Her seven- pointed “flower” or “star” is an accurate image of a hemp leaf. This leaf is typically made up of seven pointed leaf parts that are arranged in the same pattern as the most prominent sign in Seshat's emblem. Hemp is, and has long been, an excellent material for making ropes with the low- stretch quality required for measuring cords, particularly when these are greased to reduce variations in their moisture content which would influence elongation. The characteristic leaf of the plant used in making these ropes was thus a logical choice for the emblem designer who wanted an easily recognized reference to Seshat's job. This leaf is so unique that it is hard to confuse with other plants. |
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 05:15, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Emphasis added to quotes.
From Ethan B. Russo, " History of Cannabis and Its Preparations in Saga, Science, and Sobriquet," Chemistry & Biodiversity 4, issue 8 (2007): 1614-1648:
Cannabis was used medicinally starting much earlier in Egypt. See the original Egyptian documents and translations:
"Cannabis is mentioned as a medication in the following ancient Egyptian medical texts: Ramesseum III Papyrus (1700 B.C.E.), Eber’s Papyrus (1600 B.C.E.), the Berlin Papyrus (1300 B.C.E.), and the Chester Beatty VI Papyrus (1300 B.C.E.). The Eber’s Papyrus is the oldest known complete medical textbook in existence. Most scholars believe that it is copy of a much earlier text, probably from around 3100 B.C.E."
From History of Cannabis. Ancient Egypt is this:
According to Lise Manniche [3] (a more modern-day Egyptologist) the following Egyptian hieroglyphs [renderings of hieroglyphs] pronounced "shm-shm-tu" or shum-shum-met or "sm-sm-t" [4] literally translates into "The Medical Marihuana Plant." Mention of this medicine is made in the following Egyptian medical texts:
|
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 19:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The contents of the Seshat's emblem page were merged into Seshat on 6 April 2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
It looks like a cannabis leaf above her head to me. See
Cannabis was certainly known in ancient Egypt. From
"Cannabis is mentioned as a medication in the following ancient Egyptian medical texts: Ramesseum III Papyrus (1700 B.C.E.), Eber’s Papyrus (1600 B.C.E.), the Berlin Papyrus (1300 B.C.E.), and the Chester Beatty VI Papyrus (1300 B.C.E.). The Eber’s Papyrus is the oldest known complete medical textbook in existence. Most scholars believe that it is copy of a much earlier text, probably from around 3100 B.C.E."
The linked web page may not be good enough for a Wikipedia reference though.
When I look at papyrus plants they don't look like what is above her head. See:
So, are there any ancient Egyptian texts or carvings that say that the leaf above her head is supposed to be papyrus? Or is it only the best guess of scholars? That needs to be referenced in the article. Here is something found from a Google Books search. It says it is not known what is represented by what is above her head. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 21:38, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Many Egyptologists have long speculated about the emblem which Seshat wore as her head dress. Sir Alan Gardiner described it in his still category-leading “Egyptian Grammar” as a “conventionalized flower (?) surmounted by horns”. His question mark after “flower” reflects the fact that there is no likely flower which resembles this design. Others have called it a “star surmounted by a bow”, but stars in the ancient Egyptian convention had five points, not seven like the image in Seshat's emblem. This number was so important that it caused king Tuthmosis III (1479 to 1425 BCE) to call this goddess Sefkhet-Abwy, or "She of the seven points". |
I have just removed an image of a shabti box which claimed to contain an image of the hieroglyph which represents Seshat (Gardiner sign list reference R20 and R21).
In actual fact it is the hieroglyph of a sail (Gardiner sign list reference P5) and it is part of the name of the owner of the shabti : Henut Mehyt Tjaw ("Mistress of the North Wind").
Yaqubhor ( talk) 22:01, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
From http://wikoweedia.com/seshat.html is this:
I need to find the original sources for this info. But it looks less and less to me like we are talking about papyrus above her head. I have yet to find a source for it being papyrus.
From http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/sefkhetabwy.htm is this:
Again, a cord, not a papyrus reed. Why would one write on a cord or reed? It looks more like she is counting the number of knots in a cord in some type of measuring and/or ceremony. See: knotted cord and rope stretcher.
From the 2005 book The Egyptian Revival: Ancient Egypt as the Inspiration for Design Motifs in the West is this:
From Huh (god):
From http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/foundation.htm - Egypt: The Foundation Ceremony For Ancient Egyptian Religious Buildings.
From Palm branch (symbol)
From Ancient Egypt; Foundation Rituals. Stretching the cord:
The Temple of Edfu was built between between 237 and 57 BCE. This was long after Pharaoh Tuthmosis III (1479 to 1425 B.C.E.) and his name for Seshat: Sefkhet-Abwy. See farther up in this talk section.
Claims of Seshat having a papyrus plant above her head are questionable. I think it is more likely that the stretching of the cord, was based on a knotted hemp cord. That knotted cord looks like its knots were incorporated into the merkhet in the Seshat sculpture. That became symbolic of measurement in general including measuring time, years of the Pharaoh, eternity, heaven, etc.. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 10:40, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
(unindent). From http://www.recoveredscience.com/const201seshathempmath.htm is this:
Many Egyptologists have long speculated about the emblem which Seshat wore as her head dress. Sir Alan Gardiner described it in his still category-leading “ Egyptian Grammar” as a “conventionalized flower (?) surmounted by horns”. His question mark after “flower” reflects the fact that there is no likely flower which resembles this design. Others have called it a “star surmounted by a bow”, but stars in the ancient Egyptian convention had five points, not seven like the image in Seshat's emblem. This number was so important that it caused king Tuthmosis III (1479 to 1425 BCE) to call this goddess Sefkhet-Abwy, or "She of the seven points". Also, in some detailed pictures of Seshat the canopy above that seven-pointed "flower?" does not at all resemble "horns" or a "bow". There is no need for such groping speculations because the various elements in Seshat's emblem simply depict the tools of her geometer's trade in the hieroglyphic manner. Her seven- pointed “flower” or “star” is an accurate image of a hemp leaf. This leaf is typically made up of seven pointed leaf parts that are arranged in the same pattern as the most prominent sign in Seshat's emblem. Hemp is, and has long been, an excellent material for making ropes with the low- stretch quality required for measuring cords, particularly when these are greased to reduce variations in their moisture content which would influence elongation. The characteristic leaf of the plant used in making these ropes was thus a logical choice for the emblem designer who wanted an easily recognized reference to Seshat's job. This leaf is so unique that it is hard to confuse with other plants. |
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 05:15, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Emphasis added to quotes.
From Ethan B. Russo, " History of Cannabis and Its Preparations in Saga, Science, and Sobriquet," Chemistry & Biodiversity 4, issue 8 (2007): 1614-1648:
Cannabis was used medicinally starting much earlier in Egypt. See the original Egyptian documents and translations:
"Cannabis is mentioned as a medication in the following ancient Egyptian medical texts: Ramesseum III Papyrus (1700 B.C.E.), Eber’s Papyrus (1600 B.C.E.), the Berlin Papyrus (1300 B.C.E.), and the Chester Beatty VI Papyrus (1300 B.C.E.). The Eber’s Papyrus is the oldest known complete medical textbook in existence. Most scholars believe that it is copy of a much earlier text, probably from around 3100 B.C.E."
From History of Cannabis. Ancient Egypt is this:
According to Lise Manniche [3] (a more modern-day Egyptologist) the following Egyptian hieroglyphs [renderings of hieroglyphs] pronounced "shm-shm-tu" or shum-shum-met or "sm-sm-t" [4] literally translates into "The Medical Marihuana Plant." Mention of this medicine is made in the following Egyptian medical texts:
|
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 19:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)