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When I was 14 and had finished a year of Latin language my father gave me Winne Ille Pu, a Latin translation of the A. A. Milne work. The map in the front had an arrow pointing to "VII Polus." Now I knew that was the 'North Pole' from having read Pooh more than a few times in earlier years, but even as a future-know-it-all-Ph.D.-holder I didn't know that the word in Latin for "North" is Septentrionalis, which current-know-it-all members of Western Civilization have often abbreviated with the Roman numeral VII because the first two syllables of "North" are ALMOST "Seven," or Septem. See? It's a pun. Once I understood it, I thought it was funny. On the other hand, like most puns, it can exclude the general reader who doesn't know a couple of extra languages. Hence (yes, there's a point to this rant) my opposition to using multilingual puns depending on insider knowledge in sources for the general reader. By the way, I went on to major in classics in college and teach Latin during grad school, so I am, to put it mildly, an elitist. On the other hand, I'm also a *polite* elitist (ask J H K!) who prefers not to exclude people pointlessly. --MichaelTinkler
Septentrionalis means the direction towards the septentriones, the seven stars that make up the big dipper. So the link isn't a pun, definitely not a mutlilingual pun, but rather an etymological abbreviation. Maybe you knew this already, but better safe than sorry. Btw, Latin translations of existing books are very neat.
Well, here's a dumb question. Did the Romans use this abbreviation? English isn't actually a part of it, and septentrionalis is a bit too long to write on a map. If so, then it can't really be considered any more exclusive than using the Latin in the first place, since it is just the equivalent of marking N-S-E-W. I suppose this is somewhat irrelevant to the case at hand, though, since there is no reason to write LXX for septuagint and we are supposed to be using English.
It is the oldest translation of the Bible
I do not believe that is factual. It is my understanding that the Aramaic Targums form at least one older translation. Perhaps the intended meaning is that it is the oldest complete translation? (Even then I am not sure.) Jdavidb 14:29, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The extant Targums are later than the extant mss for LXX. Though the Targums are based on older sources and show elements of exegesis which are much earlier than the date of the final composition, it is still true that LXX is older. Sleeping Turtle
Based on a suggestion in Wikipedia:Pages needing attention, I have started the skeleton of a WikiProject to try to cut down on the overlap between the various presentations of the canon. I think that a lot of people working here will want input on this. Feel free! Mpolo 13:27, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
I guess the information on this page is mostly from an older source. The theory that LXX was originally translated from MT then underwent independent change is disproved by the fact that many Hebrew fragments found at Qumran match LXX rather than MT. This doesn't prove that LXX didn't have later changes, but it proves that the original Hebrew source of LXX was at least in part a different textual stream from MT. Anyone with good access to information on this, please edit the article. -- Zero 11:55, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
LXX did not translate from MT as MT didn't exist until centuries later. However, there are large parts of the LXX which used a text which was in most important respects the same as the MT (called the proto-MT). Books where LXX fits more closely with DSS than with MT are Jeremiah and Samuel. Sleeping Turtle
The Dead Sea Scrolls also contain text which translated also matches LXX.
As were all the Ptolemies. Cleopatra was the last Ptolemy, and allegedly the only one even to learn the Egyptian language.
I believe that the LXX Greek is a more difficult Greek than Koine Greek. It is closer to Classical Greek. I think Koine Greek was isolated to the NT Bible not the OT. I have done Koine Biblical Greek at university level and I believe that it is wrong to say that the LXX was written in Koine Greek. Please if you have more information on this share it.-- 203.59.46.254 16:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Work remains to be done to establish whether the LXX is actually based on Koine Greek, Doric Greek or Attic Greek. But these distinctions in Greek dialects are likely to be lost on those looking for a standard preliminary work on the Septuagint.
For those who have concerns about this page, I can be reached (for the record) at theophane1054@yahoo.com.
(P.S - I left the article - as is for now - while waiting for potential input from others. I will be editing and professionalizing this article in about one week (when I will take some of the questions out of the article).
LXX is in koine greek. There was a range of different styles within Koine and the LXX is (predominantly) a translation which accounts for some of its oddities. Some books have a tendancy to Atticise the greek (make it sound more Attic). Sleeping Turtle
I will give the example of the passage that was retained, and the passage that was censored and edited out.
This portion of the passage was retained
"Several factors finally led most Jews to abandon the Greek, including the fact that Greek scribes were not subject to Jewish technical rules of scribal interpretation; that Christians favoured the LXX; and the gradual decline of the Greek language among Jews after most of them fled from the Greek-speaking Roman Empire into the Aramaic-speaking Persian Empire when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. Instead, Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts compiled by the Masoretes, or authoritative Aramaic translations such as that of Onkelos, of Rabbi Yonasan ben Uziel, and Targum Yerushalmi, were preferred. The LXX translation began to lose whatever official sanction it might have had after differences between it and the Hebrew scriptures were discovered."
This portion of the passage was omitted, censored, and deleted:
"However, even this premise has obvious problems: If the LXX were an official Jewish translation, how would it ever have received any official sanction, if it disagreed with the Hebrew text - (the Hebrew Massoretic text) - from which it was translated ? The jewish dispersion after the fall of Jerusalem may have contributed to the growing renunciation of Hellenization among Jews. All these factors combined and the Jewish people adopted the Masoretic text, except for works such as the Maccabees, which was not part of the books of the Old Testament."
There was no explanation for the deletion, no discussion, no conversation, no opinion voiced, no intellectual discussion. There was simply a hand of censorship. Surely those who make the effort to work on this article, deserve the same amount of respect, as that which the Censors ...would grant to Themselves ??? (Theo)
I have found that the following paragraph was deleted, without comment or explanation. IT seems as though there is a deliberate effort by some to keep specific information about some aspects of the Septuagint from the eyes of the public. Why not trust the public instead ?
Here is the paragraph in question:
"There are additional problems with these codices. To say that Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus Both represent the Septuagint leaves the impression of a homogenous uniform text that these two codices share. However, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus differ from each other in more than two thousand places. There are entire verses missing, and many of the changes between them are substantive. Therefore to contend that Both of these codices represents the "septuagint" is actually an argument for our lack of knowlege, of what the text of the septuagint actually is. Is the text of the Septuagint the text of Codex Vaticanus, or is the text of the Septuagint the text of Codex Sinaiticus ? Yet even these questions pose new problems. The text of Codex Vaticanus is often represented as a "nearly complete manuscript". This leaves the impression that it was written by one author, over the course of his own lifetime. But the only reason why Codex Vaticanus is even called a nearly complete manuscript is because the parchment on which it was written - is actually what is nearly complete. Let us not confuse that - with the contents of the Manuscript. Codex Vaticanus shows a great deal of alteration over the centuries. Not only does it show alterations, it also shows that many of the original verses were washed out, thereby allowing for the substitution of a Different greek text. In several cases, the original words can still be made out which demonstrates the difference between the older words and the more recent changes. As others have pointed out, Codex Vaticanus show that at least ten different scribes over the centuries have altered its contents. Therefore to portray Codex Vaticanus as an uncorrupted manuscript is false." (Theo)
To want to improve the article is commendable. To disagree is reasonable. To simply keep information from the public is regretable. Surely those who claim to be theologically in favor of the septagint...will NOT now demonstrate that commitment, by an exercise in censorship. As those from every religion point out, God is bigger than that.
[I have copied this page in case it is changed or the contents are edited out]
(Theo).
Hi, I have already listed my email. Therefore please explain why you would like me to sign in, when you can already reach me by email. One does not have to be signed in, in order to participate, and I can be reached at theophane1054@yahoo.com . —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
65.3.74.108 (
talk •
contribs) .
This sentence in the article should be revised. How could "early Christians," who were among the Ancients, ascribe anything to "Medieval" corruption of texts?
Anyway, I'm not aware of any early Christians who assumed that the Hebrew was corrupted. The closest view to this - not univerally agreed upon by the Church Fathers - was that the newer Jewish Greek versions were uninspired and inferior to the LXX, which was in this view the authoritative version. No such judgement was cast on the Hebrew itself; its authority and divinity were unquestioned. Such a view, which seems inconsistent today, was possible because few Christians understood Hebrew and because no one suspected that other Hebrew texts, different from contemporary ones, ever existed. -- Hanina
Perhaps I misread the Dialogue with Trypho or the translations I am using are faulty, but I do not see a suggestion that the current Hebrew was inferior to LXX. Justin Martyr for the most part contrasts LXX--which is, by Philo's testimony, inspired--with the newer Jewish "versions," "translations," or "interpretations" in Greek. Justin Martyr never makes this comparison explicitly in reference to the Hebrew itself.
It is true that he does also cite four instances where "[the Jewish elders] have deleted entire passages from the version composed by those elders at the court of Ptolemy, in which it is clearly indicated that the Crucified One was foretold as God and man, and as about to suffer death on the cross." Two of these instances have apparently not survived in any version (perhaps due to recensional changes in LXX). Another is not really an "entire passage" but merely a short prepositional phrase that does not appear in Brenton's English translation of LXX either. The fourth passage does appear in our MT (although without necessarily demanding the Christological significance assumed by Justin). Justin himself admits that "this passage from the words of Jeremiah is still found in some copies of Scripture in the Jewish synagogues (for it was deleted only a short time ago)."
This last statement is the only one that might be construed as evidence that Justin Martyr believed that the actual Hebrew text had been altered. Note however that the larger context here is passages "deleted from the version composed by those elders at the court of Ptolemy (i.e. LXX)," implying not alteration of the Hebrew but intentionally anti-Christological censorship of the Greek Bible in the form of Jewish recensional changes. Since Justin certainly regarded the Greek Bible as scripture, the Greek Bible--and not the Hebrew--is probably what he meant by "copies of Scripture. . . in the synagogues." The Dialogue between him and the Jew Trypho centers on Greek Bible as common scripture (as is constant in Patristic writings) with no Hebrew citations at all. I doubt even that Justin was a Hebraist.
In any case, even if Justin Martyr meant that the Hebrew itself had been expunged, this should not be taken as a claim that the current Hebrew was inferior to LXX. Scholars of his day did not understand how texts evolve with time and Justin Martyr did not likely suspect that the current Hebrew was as different from LXX as it undoubtedly must have been. He could not have known that LXX frequently represents Hebrew texts different from those current in his day. (And he certainly did not assume that his LXX likely differed at least somewhat from the original LXX.) If Justin Martyr did believe that the Hebrew was censored in a small number of instances, he most likely attributed this to recent Rabbinical conspiracy and not to a lack of authority of the current Hebrew canon as a whole. For the early Church Fathers, LXX was the authoritative translation of this canon and not the distinct textual tradition we now know it to be. -- Hanina
This evaluation of the affect of the three major rescensions on LXX is misleading. LXX did not undergo these three rescensions sequentially. The rescensions, as described by Jerome, occured in three distinct geographical regions and led, he supposed, to the varying textual traditions of his time.
And the assertion that the major rescensions universally led to a more MT-aligned LXX is difficult to defend. Scholars who find evidence of a Lucianic rescension tend to describe it as more concerned with the elegance of its Greek language.
This sentence should be restored to its earlier form emphasising the general similarity between LXX and MT.
I think that these issues have all been surveyed sufficiently in the article, especially in the subsection, "Relationship between the Septuagint and the Masoretic text." — Hanina
Indeed the example quoted as a "substantial difference" between the two texts does not qualify as such in the context of this section. Two paragraphs earlier, the section brings the focus to true textual differences between MT and the Hebrew sources of LXX (". . . [T]he Septuagint provides a reasonably accurate record of an early Semitic textual variant. . . that differs from ancestors of the Masoretic text.") The example cited here, however, may not reflect such textual differences.
LXX and MT here might reflect nearly identical consonantal texts. The Hebrew text in front of the LXX author at Genesis 4:7 may have been all but identical to the MT text of the verse. This hardly represents a "substantial difference" in the sense implied by the section's discussion of source texts.
I have therefore replaced the word "substantial" with "noticeable." But this issue requires more clarification on this discussion page and perhaps additional modification of this section of the article. -- Hanina
Yes sir. -- Hanina
If you believe that what I have written is not documented or that documentation is lacking, then please ask concerning the specific issue so that I can provide the specific data. Otherwise, Your perspective about what I have proposed being only an opinion...is itself your opinion.
Not that I mind. However if you have facts to back up a contrary point of view, I would like to find that documentation as well.
The most important piece of information would be the conclusions concerning the potential links between 1) what the septuagint actually was and 2) how that original septuagint correlates to Codex Vaticanus. Thanks. (Theo)
I propose an addition to my earlier above proposed revision:
My proposed beginning paragraph began as follows:
"There are additional problems with these codices. To say that Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus Both represent the Septuagint leaves the impression of a homogenous uniform text that these two codices share. However, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus differ from each other in more than two thousand places."
After this, I propose the following paragraph:
"James Hoskier was a well known specialist in Greek Manuscripts from the early 1900s. His Two Volume analysis of the Differences between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus demonstrates that there are more than two thousand differences between these manuscripts. His work "Codex B and Its Allies" is a line-by-line comparison between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, and includes a detailed footnotes with many additional sources and information concerning other manuscripts covering the same texts".
If you have sources that challenge or dispute this, then please post those. One of the interesting things about Hoskier's work is that because it is an actual line-by-line comparison between these two manuscripts, it would be difficult to characterize his work as mere opinion. [Therefore the conclusions that he reached were the results of the objective study of the data, the two manuscripts]. (Theo)
—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
71.66.107.45 (
talk •
contribs) .
Reply: There are many "traditions" that the Catholic Church (Rome) has. There are traditions about the skull of the saints, there are traditions about human bones supposedly belonging to certain people that they call "saints". There are many traditions. The question is not whether there is a "tradition" of the LXX. The question is the issue of what is the LXX itself. If we are not sure, then this aught to be stated. If you believe that the LXX is a particular manuscript, then that would be your opinion. But if you are suggesting a link between either Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, and either one of those to the LXX, then that needs to be scientifically, forensically, archeologically established. All other Bible manuscripts are required to go through the same process. If someone believes a certain passage belongs in the Bible, or comes from an older version, they must cite the specific sources and attribution, and research, and the basis for the research, in order to justify their conclusion. In addition, the specific manuscripts (as you know all Greek and Hebrew Manuscripts are specifically named and designated upon discovery) being used must also be named. It is not enough to have an "opinion" or a "tradition".
The value of the supposed Septuagint is that it was supposed to be the oldest source of documentation concerning the contents of the Old Testament. The question remains as to how to know for sure that the text that is being attributed as "the septuagint" actually is what it claims to be. Your reply (above) seems to suggest that the work of Hoskier shows only MINOR differences between Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. But the differences are major: there are verses changed, there are verses deleted, there are passages missing, and there are differences of Entire Books. Multitudes of the differences between these Codices are MAJOR. As such, the fact that there are those differences, and that those differences affects the VERBS, the NOUNS, the PRONOUNS, the SUBJECT and the OBJECT of the phrases means that these manuscripts are NOT UNIFORM. The disclosure of this information is significant, and anyone who has an interest in the text of the Septuagint has a legitimate interest in having disclosed to them, that the two most common and most often used manuscripts for the supposed Septuagint contradict - CONTRADICT (since they do not uniformly agree) - Each Other AND further, that these Changes are Substantive. They cannot BOTH be right, where the references to the same verse each show a DIFFERENT Content.
It would be an act of intellectual dishonesty to refer to both Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus as though they support each other, as though they are both uniform, as though they both agree, when it is clear that they do not.
This is not my opinion. Either whatI am saying is accurate or it is not. And if it is not accurate, then produce the data and the sources that would demonstrate and conclusively establish that point. On the other hand, if what I have said is accurate, then it should be reflected in the article, and it should be reflected in the MAIN body of this article.
The work of Hoskier is not simply some personal opinion. You probably already know that Hoskier was a well established scholar with ties to the University of Michigan. The fact of a line by line comparison between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus is something that most people who work on the Septuagint do not seem the public to want to know. The fact that this exists, is itself deserving of prominent mention, for those who are interested in objective truth, and scientific inquiry. The fact that this can further be obtained today because it is still in print and copies of this can still be found, will provide additional basis for different comments in the future by others.
The differences between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are substantive, and not as you have said "differences in spelling or a word here or there". Either you have read Hoskier in which case this would present a problem in that you are not accurately characterizing his major Two Volume Work on this topic (Codex B and its Allies), or you have Not read Hoskier in which case your present opinion of his work is the result of a lack of information. Either way presents a problem. You should obtain this work for yourself, but the work is valid and accurate, and the contradictions between Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus deserve prominent mention.
Further, the issue of WHY some scholars would want to keep this from the public is a mystery. It cannot be that there is a problem with the work of Hoskier. After all, his work has been subject to peer review ever since it came out in 1914. It received rave reviews. The public has a right to know this information. Presenting it in the main body of the article is the right and intellectually honest thing to do. (Theo). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.66.107.45 ( talk • contribs) .
I have corrected "Rabbi Yonasan ben Uziel" to "Rabbi Yonathan ben Uziel" thinking that to be ok. -- FreezBee 11:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
How can the author of this article speak of Jerome, a person that lived in the 4/5th centuries say he compared the Septuagint to the Masoretic Text when the Masoretic Text was developed several centuries AFTER see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text .
"When Jerome started preparation of a new Vulgate translation of the Bible into Latin, he started with the Septuagint, checking it against the newer Hebrew Masoretic Text, he discovered many significant differences. Encouraged by his Jewish friends who provided him the Masoretic"...VS... "It was primarily compiled, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the seventh and tenth centuries CE"
I think the author erroneously mentioned the Masoretic, probably meaning the Jamnian Hebrew Canon of the 2nd century.-- Micael 15:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
ΓΕΝΕΣΙΣ | Genesis |
ΕΞΟΔΟΣ | Exodus |
ΛΕΥΙΤΙΚΟΝ | Leviticus |
ΑΡΙΘΜΟΙ | Numbers |
ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΝΟΜΙΟΝ | Deuteronomy |
ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΝΑΥΗ | Joshua, the son of Nun |
ΚΡΙΤΑΙ | Judges |
ΡΟΥΘ | Ruth |
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Α´ | Kingdoms I. (1 Samuel) |
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Β´ | Kingdoms II. (2 Samuel) |
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Γ´ | Kingdoms III. (1 Kings) |
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Δ´ | Kingdoms IV. (2 Kings) |
ΠΑΡΑΛΕΙΠΟΜΕΝΩΝ Α´ | Omissions I. (1 Chronicles) |
ΠΑΡΑΛΕΙΠΟΜΕΝΩΝ Β´ | Omissions II. (2 Chronicles) |
ΕΣΔΡΑΣ Α´ | Esdras I. |
ΕΣΔΡΑΣ Β´ | Esdras II. ( Ezra) |
ΝΕΕΜΙΑΣ | Nehemiah |
ΤΩΒΙΤ | Tobit |
ΙΟΥΔΙΘ | Judith |
ΕΣΘΗΡ | Esther |
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Α´ | I. Maccabees |
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Β´ | II. Maccabees |
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Γ´ | III. Maccabees |
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Δ´ | IV. Maccabees (often omitted or printed as an appendix in the Orthodox Church) |
ΨΑΛΜΟΙ | Psalms (including Psalm 151. In addition, the LXX numbering of the other Psalms is slightly different from the Masoretic) |
ΙΩΒ | Job |
ΩΔΑΙ (with ΠΡΟΣΕΥΧΗ ΜΑΝΑΣΣΗ) | Odes (with Prayer of Manasseh) (often omitted in the Orthodox Church) |
ΠΑΡΟΙΜΙΑΙ | Proverbs |
ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑΣΤΗΣ | Ecclesiastes |
ΑΣΜΑ | Song of Solomon |
ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΑΛΩΜΩΝ | Wisdom of Solomon |
ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΕΙΡΑΧ | Wisdom of the Son of Sirach ( Ecclesiasticus) |
ΩΣΗΕ | Hosea |
ΑΜΩΣ | Amos |
ΜΙΧΑΙΑΣ | Micah |
ΙΩΗΛ | Joel |
ΟΒΔΙΟΥ | Obadiah |
ΙΩΝΑΣ | Jonah |
ΝΑΟΥΜ | Nahum |
ΑΜΒΑΚΟΥΜ | Habakkuk |
ΣΟΦΟΝΙΑΣ | Zephaniah |
ΑΓΓΑΙΟΣ | Haggai |
ΖΑΧΑΡΙΑΣ | Zechariah |
ΜΑΛΑΧΙΑΣ | Malachi |
ΗΣΑΙΑΣ | Isaiah |
ΙΕΡΕΜΙΑΣ | Jeremiah |
ΒΑΡΟΥΧ | Baruch |
ΘΡΗΝΟΙ | Lamentations of Jeremiah |
ΕΠΙΣΤΟΛΗ ΙΕΡΕΜΙΟΥ | Epistle of Jeremiah |
ΙΕΖΕΚΙΗΛ | Ezekiel |
ΣΩΣΑΝΝΑ | Susanna |
ΔΑΝΙΗΛ (with ΤΩΝ ΤΡΙΩΝ ΠΑΙΔΩΝ ΑΙΝΕΣΙΣ) | Daniel (with Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Young Men) |
ΒΗΛ ΚΑΙ ΔΡΑΚΩΝ | Bel and the Dragon |
The Christianity box was deleted without discussion. The texts in the Septuagint are shared by Jews and Christians, so I do not see why this article should not be related to Christianity. I am adding the Judaism box. Andreas (T) 18:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
This pertains to other articles in Category:Bible, where reference to Christianity is given but none to Judaism. Maybe some work must be done to crossreference these articles. For example, Thorah is in the category:Biblical books, which is a subcategory of category:Bible, a subcategory of category:Christian texts and category:Religious texts. The latter has no subcatebory category:Jewish texts. Andreas (T) 19:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the side bars are distracting, of little benefit and sometimes offensive. The easiest thing to do is to get rid of them altogether. What is the rationale to include them? Perhaps they might be included after the main body of the article - maybe in the links section. User: Guedalia D'Montenegro
A very nice battery of clean up edits and clarifications, Hanina. Thanks for your efforts. Rwflammang 01:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, in many of the places where the LXX differs from the Masoretic Text, the same variants exist in the Dead Sea Scrolls, showing the antiquity of some of these variants and the reliability of the LXX. AND most of the verses of the Dead Sea Scrolls correspond more closely with the Masoretic Text than with the Septuagint where those two diverge.
What does this mean ? I have found this webpage which confims what I thought : Comparisons of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint show that where there are differences between the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint, approximately 95% of those differences are shared between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic text, while only 5% of those differences are shared between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint.
-- Squallgreg 20:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I get a lot more hits for anaginoskomena than for anginoskomena when I do a google search. I propose, based only on this, that anaginoskomena is the correct spelling. Can anyone give me a more authoratative source than google? Rwflammang 14:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up. For what it's worth, google agrees with you with more hits for Anagignoskomena than even for Anaginoskomena. Rwflammang 17:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'd be surprised if the word occurred in the Septuagint at all, since its a word about the LXX, rather than from the LXX. If it does occur there, please let me know which verse. Rwflammang 12:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
This subsection is of questionable value as this very subject was briefly discussed in the Textual History section. Further, it seems out of context here as its relationship to evaluating the merits of the Vulgate is tenuous.
I refrain from cutting the whole paragraph as that seems drastic. But the unclear citation from Deutoronomy was only distracting in a passage already digressive. As for what all of this "suggests," I do not see how this discovery shows that the Hebrew source of the LXX was nessarily "older" than the sources of the MT. What is clear is that Hebrew texts referenced by Jerome corroborate the MT.-- Hanina 05:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as the Greek Orthodox Church. Most of Greece is covered by the autocephalous Church of Greece, but some parts of Greece and the Greek Diaspora are under the Orthodox Church of Constantinople. These are the two churches that do not use a translation of the Septuagint. Other Eastern Orthodox Churches ue translations from the Septuagint. Making the link pointing only to the Orthodox Church of Constantinople means leaving out most of the motherland Greeks who, of course, also use the Septuagint in the original. Andreas (T) 14:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm referring to the Artscroll Stone Tanach in English The KJV standard The Septuagint by Sir Lancelot L. C. Brenton in English.
I was reading in Hosea 8:7: For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up. [this is from KJV].
Hosea 8:7 For they sowed blighted seed and their destruction shall await them, a sheaf of corn that avails not to make meal; and even if it should produce it, strangers shall devour it. [this is from the Septuagint-Brendton]
Hosea 8:7 For they sow wind and they will reap a tempest; it has no standing stalks, a sprought that will produce no flour; and if it should somehow produce, strangers will swallow it. [this is from the Artscroll Stone Tanach]
If you read Hosea in all three, you will find a pattern of such differences. I do not think all books of the Bible have this problem, though.
Someone keeps changing the name of Τωβίτ to Τωβίας in the table of books. My copy of the LXX (Brenton's Greek edition) has Τωβίτ. Are their any Greek editions that use Τωβίας? If so, can you give me a reference? No, I don't consider the Vulgate a reference since it translates Tobias from an Aramaic text, and not from the LXX. I don't believe that the name of the book in the Vetus Latina is Tobias either, but I haven't seen an edition from the Vetus Latina. In the Nova Vulgata it is Thobi (genitive Thobis) following some non-Vulgate medieval manuscript or other. Rwflammang 15:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but my edition of the Septuagint calls the book Τωβίτ, not Τωβίας. Of the two forms, Τωβίτ would seem to older (2nd century BC); I know of no earlier example of Tobias than the Vulgate (4th century AD). Jerome translated his Book of Tobias from the Aramaic or Hebrew, not Greek, see Jerome's Prologue to Tobias. If you know of an edition of the LXX that uses a different title, please tell me the reference. Since the titles of the books in the table should reflect what the Septuagint actually calls them, I will change the title to Τωβίτ and provide a reference. If you change it back, I must insist that you do so with a reference. Rwflammang
Obviously, Tobias exists. Tobias is Greek. Tobit is Aramaic. Tobias was the title of the book now commonly called Tobit. It is found in the oldest manuscripts. It was the official Church title for the book. Tobias is used culturally throughout Christendom, but Tobit is not. Whichever one is correct for the book is a question for the article on Book of Tobit. This is an article on an ancient Greek text, not the Aramaic original.
The notes are detailed and accurate (as corrected). In fact their thoroughness blows my mind. They humble me.
Therefore I for one must agree with the consensus.
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Cestus
Cd
21:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This article contains several errors in need of correction. I have corrected most of these before, but they seem to come back in as quickly as I can fix them. I'd like to enlist the help of other editors in fixing these problems. Below is a detailed list with references regarding these errors and how to correct them. I hope that many of these errors will be fixed by the time you read this, but I will post these musings anyway, should they recur in the future.
Rwflammang 17:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Having read the article and looked at the sources and citations does anyone here feel that an additional section showing the arguements for Jesus using this exact corpus of work. I presume there would be some counterarguements but I feel a case could be made using citations none-the-less. Any comments? ( Simonapro 18:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC))
I have some problems with the following paragraph:
Is there anything is this paragraph worth saving? Rwflammang 20:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
In the "Christian Use" section, frequent reference to the undefined Jamnian text renders the entire section incomprehensible to the average reader. But taking space to define this term will weigh down the section with mostly irrelevant material; especially since such explanations must note that the very term Jamnian text is controversial as modern scholars doubt any Council of Jamnia ever convened! (See Biblical canon.)
The term Jamnian text in this section seems to be a way of explaining how Jerome and others had access to a complete Hebrew Bible when MT dates from 990 CE. But that this ancient Hebrew text of Jerome's day and MT tend to agree where different from LXX is not adequately addressed. On the contrary, differences between Vulgate and 'The current Hebrew "Tanakh"' (I think MT is meant) are mentioned as if to deny that 'The current Hebrew "Tanakh"' is the legitimate heir to the Hebrew texts of Jerome's time. More reasonably, reference is made later to "the Jamnian/Masoretic tradition."
The section carries the LXX-MT dichotomy too far when it says that new bible translations use the "mediaeval Masoretic text" but consult the "ancient Septuagint." MT is no more a product of the tenth century than LXX is a product of the fifth century (when Codex Vaticanus appeared). MT was pointed by seventh-century Naqdanim and redacted by eighth-to-tenth-century Masoretes; but the consonantal texts they used descended from the same ancient Hebrew texts among which were numbered Jerome's. The texts had already by Jerome's time gone through a large degree of standardization, with many variations preserved in LXX eliminated from the contemporary Hebrew.
To avoid the "Jamnian" confusion, the tendency to anachronsitically refer to an MT in Jerome's time, and the opposing tendency to isolate MT from its ancient antecedents, I recommend the term "contemporary Hebrew text/s." -- Hanina
Please refer to " Council of Jamnia" for background regarding this "Jamnian" controversy. You see, it appears Hanina's remark " as modern scholars doubt any Council of Jamnia ever convened!" was a gross mis-interpretation. Actually, if there is any consensus it is that Jamnia, by most modern scholarly works whether over a 1 year period or a 30 year period, is that it did occur. The little speculation that has arisen, comes via the works of a few. One of these skeptics Jack P. Lewis, in his book The Anchor Bible Dictionary Vol. III, pp. 634-7, specifically, makes the following weak statements in attempting to discredit any "Council of Jamnia"...
"The concept of the Council of Jamnia is an hypothesis to explain the canonization of the Writings (the third division of the Hebrew Bible) resulting in the closing of the Hebrew canon. ... These ongoing debates suggest the paucity of evidence on which the hypothesis of the Council of Jamnia rests and raise the question whether it has not served its usefulness and should be relegated to the limbo of unestablished hypotheses. It should not be allowed to be considered a consensus established by mere repetition of assertion. "
Upon reading, Mr. Lewis, makes several scholarly errors and mis-definitions.
Right from the start, Mr. Lewis, points out a "paucity of evidence". Well, if there was direct evidence then he should not be calling this a "hypothesis". For the definition of hypothesis is an educated proposition accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts. Understanding this we realize that , Mr. Lewis' statement "unestablished hypothesis" is a true oxymoron. If it was firmly established with evidence (in essence a smoking gun) then it would not be called a hypothesis.
However, lets look at the established facts which does make the Council of Jamnia and this Phariseal Jew Canonization highly probable and a legitimate hypothesis for the time of the canonization of what is referred as the "Hebrew" Scriptures.
1. There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. However, we do know it must have been set some time between 60-200 BC(during the formation of the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls), and the 10th century - the date of the Masoretic Text. With this in mind we need to understand certain pivotal periods in Hebrew/Phariseal Jewish history and the time most likely for this to occur would require the congregation of Phariseal Jews in the Holy Land. Additionally we must understand that even thought there may have been various Jewish divisions of differing powers there was no one single Jewish sect which had superior powers above all other and each utilized various books as scripture. The Saducees held only the Pentatuch(1st five books) as their lone scripture, Essenes to a larger volume of books than the Pharisees, diaspora/Hellenist Jews, Ethiopian Jews and the grand majority of Jews including Christ himself and his Early Church used the Septuagint canon, naturally including Christian Jews.
2. The grand majority of Jews, including those in the Holy Land, at least 200 years before Christ and centuries after did not speak Hebrew they spoke Aramaic (with Greek as the official language), as Christ. Therefore, the predominant use of the Septuagent Old Testament.
3. The destruction of the Temple at 70 AD left Phariseal Jews of Palestine with little to identify themselves and the last they needed is to abide by an exact canon and language used by the newly converted Christian Jews. Thus, a need to discard themselves of any canon connected with the Septuagint canon. (again I remind you it was the Septuagint canon of Old Testament scriptures utilized by Christ and the apostles, as a matter of fact, it is quoted over 300 times in the New Testament included many of Jesus' very own words.) Additionally, the Pharisees realized that the conversion of many Jews to Christianity was directly related with the Septuagent version of the Old Testament with the more explicit language regarding the coming Messiah- for an example see the Book of Wisdom 2:13 and compare it to Matthew 27:43 and Psalms 22:8. Even more reason to hastily establish and close a "Hebrew" (Phariseal) canon to deal with this Christian conversion problem among their very Jewish brethren now that Jews had lost the very central tenement of Judaism, the Temple at Jerusalem.
4. With all this in mind one must question...whom has place the Pharisees, those that rejected Christ and their offspring, Rabbinic Judaism in a position of primacy regarding Hebrew Canon and much less Christian Old Testament Canon? Additionally why could it not be inferred that Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai one of the original founders of Rabbinic Judaism ,whom left to Jamnia after the temple was destroyed and was a central figure in the codification the Mishna oral law during the late 1st century did not also at the very least initiate the formulation of the Hebrew (truly a "Phariseal" Hebrew) Canon during that same time. Consequently, the "hypothesis" of the Council of Jamnia and the establishment of the "Hebrew" canon.
Lastly, the bottom line is that the Pharisees had no more say with regard to the final codification of Old Testament Scripture than any other Jewish sect of Jesus' time. Neither one of these groups had any superior authority among themselves, even less-so over the Early Christian Church. The Church which WAS given the authority- by Christ- to bind or loosen as is well documented in scripture in Matthew 16:18-19: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
And it was that very same church, which did finally "bind" the entire Word of God, not simply half- the New Testament canon, but also the Old as well as the New Testament to provide all Christians the entire written Word of God, as authorized by Christ. This occurred during the Synods of Hippo and Carthage of 393 and 397 AD. (NOTE: All Christians accept the authority of these synods in providing the New Testament canon. Yet what many Christians are illinformed of, is that the purpose of these meetings was closing the entire written Word of God not simply the New Testament. Therefore, if a they accept its authority in providing the New Testament canon then they must also accept their consensus regarding the Old Testament canon. Instead of giving Christ rejecting Phariseal Jews the authority to tamper with half of the word of God.) Micael 16:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but Josephus, Philo, and the Talmud all confirm that only the 5 books of the Torah were translated into Greek during the 3rd century. The rest of the current day Septuagint was not translated by those that translated the Torah, and they were translated by who knows who over the next 300 or so years. The entire Septuagint was pretty much useless in terms of conveying what the Hebrew actually said by the 3rd century.
Origen tried piecing together a decent translation with about 6 side by side and came to the following conclusion:
"“we are forthwith to reject as spurious the copies in use in our Churches, and enjoin the brotherhood to put away the sacred books current among them, and to coax the Jews, and persuade them to give us copies which shall be untampered with, and free from forgery!” Origen, A Letter from Origen to Africanus, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 4.]"
Anyway, today's Christian Old Testaments are full of errors that spawn from this.
I must assume that the statement that the Septuagint means pretty much what the Hebrew meant was taken from one of the sources and not the statement of somebody who has read the Hebrew. I have read both and the Septuagint is so far off in so many cases that it is not even wrong. The Greek translators had no clue how to handle the construct in Hebrew and that leads to a lot of nonsense.
You cannot possibly be saying that a grammatical structure that appears in the Talmud -- which predates the Masoretic -- did not exist in the Pentateuch when the Septuagint was written because you obviously understand that you cannot prove a negative.
Oh, you have seen the Dead Sea scrolls or photographs of the text? I thought I had found a publication on CD but I changed to a different page on the Web and couldn't find it again. Do you have a copy and is that what you're using for a basis? Please tell me the title and so on so I can find it. I remember it was pretty expensive but maybe the price will come within my range or I can save up to get it.
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When I was 14 and had finished a year of Latin language my father gave me Winne Ille Pu, a Latin translation of the A. A. Milne work. The map in the front had an arrow pointing to "VII Polus." Now I knew that was the 'North Pole' from having read Pooh more than a few times in earlier years, but even as a future-know-it-all-Ph.D.-holder I didn't know that the word in Latin for "North" is Septentrionalis, which current-know-it-all members of Western Civilization have often abbreviated with the Roman numeral VII because the first two syllables of "North" are ALMOST "Seven," or Septem. See? It's a pun. Once I understood it, I thought it was funny. On the other hand, like most puns, it can exclude the general reader who doesn't know a couple of extra languages. Hence (yes, there's a point to this rant) my opposition to using multilingual puns depending on insider knowledge in sources for the general reader. By the way, I went on to major in classics in college and teach Latin during grad school, so I am, to put it mildly, an elitist. On the other hand, I'm also a *polite* elitist (ask J H K!) who prefers not to exclude people pointlessly. --MichaelTinkler
Septentrionalis means the direction towards the septentriones, the seven stars that make up the big dipper. So the link isn't a pun, definitely not a mutlilingual pun, but rather an etymological abbreviation. Maybe you knew this already, but better safe than sorry. Btw, Latin translations of existing books are very neat.
Well, here's a dumb question. Did the Romans use this abbreviation? English isn't actually a part of it, and septentrionalis is a bit too long to write on a map. If so, then it can't really be considered any more exclusive than using the Latin in the first place, since it is just the equivalent of marking N-S-E-W. I suppose this is somewhat irrelevant to the case at hand, though, since there is no reason to write LXX for septuagint and we are supposed to be using English.
It is the oldest translation of the Bible
I do not believe that is factual. It is my understanding that the Aramaic Targums form at least one older translation. Perhaps the intended meaning is that it is the oldest complete translation? (Even then I am not sure.) Jdavidb 14:29, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The extant Targums are later than the extant mss for LXX. Though the Targums are based on older sources and show elements of exegesis which are much earlier than the date of the final composition, it is still true that LXX is older. Sleeping Turtle
Based on a suggestion in Wikipedia:Pages needing attention, I have started the skeleton of a WikiProject to try to cut down on the overlap between the various presentations of the canon. I think that a lot of people working here will want input on this. Feel free! Mpolo 13:27, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
I guess the information on this page is mostly from an older source. The theory that LXX was originally translated from MT then underwent independent change is disproved by the fact that many Hebrew fragments found at Qumran match LXX rather than MT. This doesn't prove that LXX didn't have later changes, but it proves that the original Hebrew source of LXX was at least in part a different textual stream from MT. Anyone with good access to information on this, please edit the article. -- Zero 11:55, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
LXX did not translate from MT as MT didn't exist until centuries later. However, there are large parts of the LXX which used a text which was in most important respects the same as the MT (called the proto-MT). Books where LXX fits more closely with DSS than with MT are Jeremiah and Samuel. Sleeping Turtle
The Dead Sea Scrolls also contain text which translated also matches LXX.
As were all the Ptolemies. Cleopatra was the last Ptolemy, and allegedly the only one even to learn the Egyptian language.
I believe that the LXX Greek is a more difficult Greek than Koine Greek. It is closer to Classical Greek. I think Koine Greek was isolated to the NT Bible not the OT. I have done Koine Biblical Greek at university level and I believe that it is wrong to say that the LXX was written in Koine Greek. Please if you have more information on this share it.-- 203.59.46.254 16:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Work remains to be done to establish whether the LXX is actually based on Koine Greek, Doric Greek or Attic Greek. But these distinctions in Greek dialects are likely to be lost on those looking for a standard preliminary work on the Septuagint.
For those who have concerns about this page, I can be reached (for the record) at theophane1054@yahoo.com.
(P.S - I left the article - as is for now - while waiting for potential input from others. I will be editing and professionalizing this article in about one week (when I will take some of the questions out of the article).
LXX is in koine greek. There was a range of different styles within Koine and the LXX is (predominantly) a translation which accounts for some of its oddities. Some books have a tendancy to Atticise the greek (make it sound more Attic). Sleeping Turtle
I will give the example of the passage that was retained, and the passage that was censored and edited out.
This portion of the passage was retained
"Several factors finally led most Jews to abandon the Greek, including the fact that Greek scribes were not subject to Jewish technical rules of scribal interpretation; that Christians favoured the LXX; and the gradual decline of the Greek language among Jews after most of them fled from the Greek-speaking Roman Empire into the Aramaic-speaking Persian Empire when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. Instead, Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts compiled by the Masoretes, or authoritative Aramaic translations such as that of Onkelos, of Rabbi Yonasan ben Uziel, and Targum Yerushalmi, were preferred. The LXX translation began to lose whatever official sanction it might have had after differences between it and the Hebrew scriptures were discovered."
This portion of the passage was omitted, censored, and deleted:
"However, even this premise has obvious problems: If the LXX were an official Jewish translation, how would it ever have received any official sanction, if it disagreed with the Hebrew text - (the Hebrew Massoretic text) - from which it was translated ? The jewish dispersion after the fall of Jerusalem may have contributed to the growing renunciation of Hellenization among Jews. All these factors combined and the Jewish people adopted the Masoretic text, except for works such as the Maccabees, which was not part of the books of the Old Testament."
There was no explanation for the deletion, no discussion, no conversation, no opinion voiced, no intellectual discussion. There was simply a hand of censorship. Surely those who make the effort to work on this article, deserve the same amount of respect, as that which the Censors ...would grant to Themselves ??? (Theo)
I have found that the following paragraph was deleted, without comment or explanation. IT seems as though there is a deliberate effort by some to keep specific information about some aspects of the Septuagint from the eyes of the public. Why not trust the public instead ?
Here is the paragraph in question:
"There are additional problems with these codices. To say that Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus Both represent the Septuagint leaves the impression of a homogenous uniform text that these two codices share. However, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus differ from each other in more than two thousand places. There are entire verses missing, and many of the changes between them are substantive. Therefore to contend that Both of these codices represents the "septuagint" is actually an argument for our lack of knowlege, of what the text of the septuagint actually is. Is the text of the Septuagint the text of Codex Vaticanus, or is the text of the Septuagint the text of Codex Sinaiticus ? Yet even these questions pose new problems. The text of Codex Vaticanus is often represented as a "nearly complete manuscript". This leaves the impression that it was written by one author, over the course of his own lifetime. But the only reason why Codex Vaticanus is even called a nearly complete manuscript is because the parchment on which it was written - is actually what is nearly complete. Let us not confuse that - with the contents of the Manuscript. Codex Vaticanus shows a great deal of alteration over the centuries. Not only does it show alterations, it also shows that many of the original verses were washed out, thereby allowing for the substitution of a Different greek text. In several cases, the original words can still be made out which demonstrates the difference between the older words and the more recent changes. As others have pointed out, Codex Vaticanus show that at least ten different scribes over the centuries have altered its contents. Therefore to portray Codex Vaticanus as an uncorrupted manuscript is false." (Theo)
To want to improve the article is commendable. To disagree is reasonable. To simply keep information from the public is regretable. Surely those who claim to be theologically in favor of the septagint...will NOT now demonstrate that commitment, by an exercise in censorship. As those from every religion point out, God is bigger than that.
[I have copied this page in case it is changed or the contents are edited out]
(Theo).
Hi, I have already listed my email. Therefore please explain why you would like me to sign in, when you can already reach me by email. One does not have to be signed in, in order to participate, and I can be reached at theophane1054@yahoo.com . —The preceding
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65.3.74.108 (
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contribs) .
This sentence in the article should be revised. How could "early Christians," who were among the Ancients, ascribe anything to "Medieval" corruption of texts?
Anyway, I'm not aware of any early Christians who assumed that the Hebrew was corrupted. The closest view to this - not univerally agreed upon by the Church Fathers - was that the newer Jewish Greek versions were uninspired and inferior to the LXX, which was in this view the authoritative version. No such judgement was cast on the Hebrew itself; its authority and divinity were unquestioned. Such a view, which seems inconsistent today, was possible because few Christians understood Hebrew and because no one suspected that other Hebrew texts, different from contemporary ones, ever existed. -- Hanina
Perhaps I misread the Dialogue with Trypho or the translations I am using are faulty, but I do not see a suggestion that the current Hebrew was inferior to LXX. Justin Martyr for the most part contrasts LXX--which is, by Philo's testimony, inspired--with the newer Jewish "versions," "translations," or "interpretations" in Greek. Justin Martyr never makes this comparison explicitly in reference to the Hebrew itself.
It is true that he does also cite four instances where "[the Jewish elders] have deleted entire passages from the version composed by those elders at the court of Ptolemy, in which it is clearly indicated that the Crucified One was foretold as God and man, and as about to suffer death on the cross." Two of these instances have apparently not survived in any version (perhaps due to recensional changes in LXX). Another is not really an "entire passage" but merely a short prepositional phrase that does not appear in Brenton's English translation of LXX either. The fourth passage does appear in our MT (although without necessarily demanding the Christological significance assumed by Justin). Justin himself admits that "this passage from the words of Jeremiah is still found in some copies of Scripture in the Jewish synagogues (for it was deleted only a short time ago)."
This last statement is the only one that might be construed as evidence that Justin Martyr believed that the actual Hebrew text had been altered. Note however that the larger context here is passages "deleted from the version composed by those elders at the court of Ptolemy (i.e. LXX)," implying not alteration of the Hebrew but intentionally anti-Christological censorship of the Greek Bible in the form of Jewish recensional changes. Since Justin certainly regarded the Greek Bible as scripture, the Greek Bible--and not the Hebrew--is probably what he meant by "copies of Scripture. . . in the synagogues." The Dialogue between him and the Jew Trypho centers on Greek Bible as common scripture (as is constant in Patristic writings) with no Hebrew citations at all. I doubt even that Justin was a Hebraist.
In any case, even if Justin Martyr meant that the Hebrew itself had been expunged, this should not be taken as a claim that the current Hebrew was inferior to LXX. Scholars of his day did not understand how texts evolve with time and Justin Martyr did not likely suspect that the current Hebrew was as different from LXX as it undoubtedly must have been. He could not have known that LXX frequently represents Hebrew texts different from those current in his day. (And he certainly did not assume that his LXX likely differed at least somewhat from the original LXX.) If Justin Martyr did believe that the Hebrew was censored in a small number of instances, he most likely attributed this to recent Rabbinical conspiracy and not to a lack of authority of the current Hebrew canon as a whole. For the early Church Fathers, LXX was the authoritative translation of this canon and not the distinct textual tradition we now know it to be. -- Hanina
This evaluation of the affect of the three major rescensions on LXX is misleading. LXX did not undergo these three rescensions sequentially. The rescensions, as described by Jerome, occured in three distinct geographical regions and led, he supposed, to the varying textual traditions of his time.
And the assertion that the major rescensions universally led to a more MT-aligned LXX is difficult to defend. Scholars who find evidence of a Lucianic rescension tend to describe it as more concerned with the elegance of its Greek language.
This sentence should be restored to its earlier form emphasising the general similarity between LXX and MT.
I think that these issues have all been surveyed sufficiently in the article, especially in the subsection, "Relationship between the Septuagint and the Masoretic text." — Hanina
Indeed the example quoted as a "substantial difference" between the two texts does not qualify as such in the context of this section. Two paragraphs earlier, the section brings the focus to true textual differences between MT and the Hebrew sources of LXX (". . . [T]he Septuagint provides a reasonably accurate record of an early Semitic textual variant. . . that differs from ancestors of the Masoretic text.") The example cited here, however, may not reflect such textual differences.
LXX and MT here might reflect nearly identical consonantal texts. The Hebrew text in front of the LXX author at Genesis 4:7 may have been all but identical to the MT text of the verse. This hardly represents a "substantial difference" in the sense implied by the section's discussion of source texts.
I have therefore replaced the word "substantial" with "noticeable." But this issue requires more clarification on this discussion page and perhaps additional modification of this section of the article. -- Hanina
Yes sir. -- Hanina
If you believe that what I have written is not documented or that documentation is lacking, then please ask concerning the specific issue so that I can provide the specific data. Otherwise, Your perspective about what I have proposed being only an opinion...is itself your opinion.
Not that I mind. However if you have facts to back up a contrary point of view, I would like to find that documentation as well.
The most important piece of information would be the conclusions concerning the potential links between 1) what the septuagint actually was and 2) how that original septuagint correlates to Codex Vaticanus. Thanks. (Theo)
I propose an addition to my earlier above proposed revision:
My proposed beginning paragraph began as follows:
"There are additional problems with these codices. To say that Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus Both represent the Septuagint leaves the impression of a homogenous uniform text that these two codices share. However, Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus differ from each other in more than two thousand places."
After this, I propose the following paragraph:
"James Hoskier was a well known specialist in Greek Manuscripts from the early 1900s. His Two Volume analysis of the Differences between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus demonstrates that there are more than two thousand differences between these manuscripts. His work "Codex B and Its Allies" is a line-by-line comparison between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, and includes a detailed footnotes with many additional sources and information concerning other manuscripts covering the same texts".
If you have sources that challenge or dispute this, then please post those. One of the interesting things about Hoskier's work is that because it is an actual line-by-line comparison between these two manuscripts, it would be difficult to characterize his work as mere opinion. [Therefore the conclusions that he reached were the results of the objective study of the data, the two manuscripts]. (Theo)
—The preceding
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71.66.107.45 (
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Reply: There are many "traditions" that the Catholic Church (Rome) has. There are traditions about the skull of the saints, there are traditions about human bones supposedly belonging to certain people that they call "saints". There are many traditions. The question is not whether there is a "tradition" of the LXX. The question is the issue of what is the LXX itself. If we are not sure, then this aught to be stated. If you believe that the LXX is a particular manuscript, then that would be your opinion. But if you are suggesting a link between either Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, and either one of those to the LXX, then that needs to be scientifically, forensically, archeologically established. All other Bible manuscripts are required to go through the same process. If someone believes a certain passage belongs in the Bible, or comes from an older version, they must cite the specific sources and attribution, and research, and the basis for the research, in order to justify their conclusion. In addition, the specific manuscripts (as you know all Greek and Hebrew Manuscripts are specifically named and designated upon discovery) being used must also be named. It is not enough to have an "opinion" or a "tradition".
The value of the supposed Septuagint is that it was supposed to be the oldest source of documentation concerning the contents of the Old Testament. The question remains as to how to know for sure that the text that is being attributed as "the septuagint" actually is what it claims to be. Your reply (above) seems to suggest that the work of Hoskier shows only MINOR differences between Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. But the differences are major: there are verses changed, there are verses deleted, there are passages missing, and there are differences of Entire Books. Multitudes of the differences between these Codices are MAJOR. As such, the fact that there are those differences, and that those differences affects the VERBS, the NOUNS, the PRONOUNS, the SUBJECT and the OBJECT of the phrases means that these manuscripts are NOT UNIFORM. The disclosure of this information is significant, and anyone who has an interest in the text of the Septuagint has a legitimate interest in having disclosed to them, that the two most common and most often used manuscripts for the supposed Septuagint contradict - CONTRADICT (since they do not uniformly agree) - Each Other AND further, that these Changes are Substantive. They cannot BOTH be right, where the references to the same verse each show a DIFFERENT Content.
It would be an act of intellectual dishonesty to refer to both Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus as though they support each other, as though they are both uniform, as though they both agree, when it is clear that they do not.
This is not my opinion. Either whatI am saying is accurate or it is not. And if it is not accurate, then produce the data and the sources that would demonstrate and conclusively establish that point. On the other hand, if what I have said is accurate, then it should be reflected in the article, and it should be reflected in the MAIN body of this article.
The work of Hoskier is not simply some personal opinion. You probably already know that Hoskier was a well established scholar with ties to the University of Michigan. The fact of a line by line comparison between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus is something that most people who work on the Septuagint do not seem the public to want to know. The fact that this exists, is itself deserving of prominent mention, for those who are interested in objective truth, and scientific inquiry. The fact that this can further be obtained today because it is still in print and copies of this can still be found, will provide additional basis for different comments in the future by others.
The differences between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are substantive, and not as you have said "differences in spelling or a word here or there". Either you have read Hoskier in which case this would present a problem in that you are not accurately characterizing his major Two Volume Work on this topic (Codex B and its Allies), or you have Not read Hoskier in which case your present opinion of his work is the result of a lack of information. Either way presents a problem. You should obtain this work for yourself, but the work is valid and accurate, and the contradictions between Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus deserve prominent mention.
Further, the issue of WHY some scholars would want to keep this from the public is a mystery. It cannot be that there is a problem with the work of Hoskier. After all, his work has been subject to peer review ever since it came out in 1914. It received rave reviews. The public has a right to know this information. Presenting it in the main body of the article is the right and intellectually honest thing to do. (Theo). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.66.107.45 ( talk • contribs) .
I have corrected "Rabbi Yonasan ben Uziel" to "Rabbi Yonathan ben Uziel" thinking that to be ok. -- FreezBee 11:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
How can the author of this article speak of Jerome, a person that lived in the 4/5th centuries say he compared the Septuagint to the Masoretic Text when the Masoretic Text was developed several centuries AFTER see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text .
"When Jerome started preparation of a new Vulgate translation of the Bible into Latin, he started with the Septuagint, checking it against the newer Hebrew Masoretic Text, he discovered many significant differences. Encouraged by his Jewish friends who provided him the Masoretic"...VS... "It was primarily compiled, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the seventh and tenth centuries CE"
I think the author erroneously mentioned the Masoretic, probably meaning the Jamnian Hebrew Canon of the 2nd century.-- Micael 15:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
ΓΕΝΕΣΙΣ | Genesis |
ΕΞΟΔΟΣ | Exodus |
ΛΕΥΙΤΙΚΟΝ | Leviticus |
ΑΡΙΘΜΟΙ | Numbers |
ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΝΟΜΙΟΝ | Deuteronomy |
ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΝΑΥΗ | Joshua, the son of Nun |
ΚΡΙΤΑΙ | Judges |
ΡΟΥΘ | Ruth |
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Α´ | Kingdoms I. (1 Samuel) |
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Β´ | Kingdoms II. (2 Samuel) |
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Γ´ | Kingdoms III. (1 Kings) |
ΒΑΣΙΛΕΙΩΝ Δ´ | Kingdoms IV. (2 Kings) |
ΠΑΡΑΛΕΙΠΟΜΕΝΩΝ Α´ | Omissions I. (1 Chronicles) |
ΠΑΡΑΛΕΙΠΟΜΕΝΩΝ Β´ | Omissions II. (2 Chronicles) |
ΕΣΔΡΑΣ Α´ | Esdras I. |
ΕΣΔΡΑΣ Β´ | Esdras II. ( Ezra) |
ΝΕΕΜΙΑΣ | Nehemiah |
ΤΩΒΙΤ | Tobit |
ΙΟΥΔΙΘ | Judith |
ΕΣΘΗΡ | Esther |
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Α´ | I. Maccabees |
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Β´ | II. Maccabees |
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Γ´ | III. Maccabees |
ΜΑΚΚΑΒΑΙΩΝ Δ´ | IV. Maccabees (often omitted or printed as an appendix in the Orthodox Church) |
ΨΑΛΜΟΙ | Psalms (including Psalm 151. In addition, the LXX numbering of the other Psalms is slightly different from the Masoretic) |
ΙΩΒ | Job |
ΩΔΑΙ (with ΠΡΟΣΕΥΧΗ ΜΑΝΑΣΣΗ) | Odes (with Prayer of Manasseh) (often omitted in the Orthodox Church) |
ΠΑΡΟΙΜΙΑΙ | Proverbs |
ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑΣΤΗΣ | Ecclesiastes |
ΑΣΜΑ | Song of Solomon |
ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΑΛΩΜΩΝ | Wisdom of Solomon |
ΣΟΦΙΑ ΣΕΙΡΑΧ | Wisdom of the Son of Sirach ( Ecclesiasticus) |
ΩΣΗΕ | Hosea |
ΑΜΩΣ | Amos |
ΜΙΧΑΙΑΣ | Micah |
ΙΩΗΛ | Joel |
ΟΒΔΙΟΥ | Obadiah |
ΙΩΝΑΣ | Jonah |
ΝΑΟΥΜ | Nahum |
ΑΜΒΑΚΟΥΜ | Habakkuk |
ΣΟΦΟΝΙΑΣ | Zephaniah |
ΑΓΓΑΙΟΣ | Haggai |
ΖΑΧΑΡΙΑΣ | Zechariah |
ΜΑΛΑΧΙΑΣ | Malachi |
ΗΣΑΙΑΣ | Isaiah |
ΙΕΡΕΜΙΑΣ | Jeremiah |
ΒΑΡΟΥΧ | Baruch |
ΘΡΗΝΟΙ | Lamentations of Jeremiah |
ΕΠΙΣΤΟΛΗ ΙΕΡΕΜΙΟΥ | Epistle of Jeremiah |
ΙΕΖΕΚΙΗΛ | Ezekiel |
ΣΩΣΑΝΝΑ | Susanna |
ΔΑΝΙΗΛ (with ΤΩΝ ΤΡΙΩΝ ΠΑΙΔΩΝ ΑΙΝΕΣΙΣ) | Daniel (with Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Young Men) |
ΒΗΛ ΚΑΙ ΔΡΑΚΩΝ | Bel and the Dragon |
The Christianity box was deleted without discussion. The texts in the Septuagint are shared by Jews and Christians, so I do not see why this article should not be related to Christianity. I am adding the Judaism box. Andreas (T) 18:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
This pertains to other articles in Category:Bible, where reference to Christianity is given but none to Judaism. Maybe some work must be done to crossreference these articles. For example, Thorah is in the category:Biblical books, which is a subcategory of category:Bible, a subcategory of category:Christian texts and category:Religious texts. The latter has no subcatebory category:Jewish texts. Andreas (T) 19:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I think the side bars are distracting, of little benefit and sometimes offensive. The easiest thing to do is to get rid of them altogether. What is the rationale to include them? Perhaps they might be included after the main body of the article - maybe in the links section. User: Guedalia D'Montenegro
A very nice battery of clean up edits and clarifications, Hanina. Thanks for your efforts. Rwflammang 01:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Moreover, in many of the places where the LXX differs from the Masoretic Text, the same variants exist in the Dead Sea Scrolls, showing the antiquity of some of these variants and the reliability of the LXX. AND most of the verses of the Dead Sea Scrolls correspond more closely with the Masoretic Text than with the Septuagint where those two diverge.
What does this mean ? I have found this webpage which confims what I thought : Comparisons of the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint show that where there are differences between the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint, approximately 95% of those differences are shared between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic text, while only 5% of those differences are shared between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint.
-- Squallgreg 20:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I get a lot more hits for anaginoskomena than for anginoskomena when I do a google search. I propose, based only on this, that anaginoskomena is the correct spelling. Can anyone give me a more authoratative source than google? Rwflammang 14:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up. For what it's worth, google agrees with you with more hits for Anagignoskomena than even for Anaginoskomena. Rwflammang 17:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'd be surprised if the word occurred in the Septuagint at all, since its a word about the LXX, rather than from the LXX. If it does occur there, please let me know which verse. Rwflammang 12:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
This subsection is of questionable value as this very subject was briefly discussed in the Textual History section. Further, it seems out of context here as its relationship to evaluating the merits of the Vulgate is tenuous.
I refrain from cutting the whole paragraph as that seems drastic. But the unclear citation from Deutoronomy was only distracting in a passage already digressive. As for what all of this "suggests," I do not see how this discovery shows that the Hebrew source of the LXX was nessarily "older" than the sources of the MT. What is clear is that Hebrew texts referenced by Jerome corroborate the MT.-- Hanina 05:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no such thing as the Greek Orthodox Church. Most of Greece is covered by the autocephalous Church of Greece, but some parts of Greece and the Greek Diaspora are under the Orthodox Church of Constantinople. These are the two churches that do not use a translation of the Septuagint. Other Eastern Orthodox Churches ue translations from the Septuagint. Making the link pointing only to the Orthodox Church of Constantinople means leaving out most of the motherland Greeks who, of course, also use the Septuagint in the original. Andreas (T) 14:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm referring to the Artscroll Stone Tanach in English The KJV standard The Septuagint by Sir Lancelot L. C. Brenton in English.
I was reading in Hosea 8:7: For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up. [this is from KJV].
Hosea 8:7 For they sowed blighted seed and their destruction shall await them, a sheaf of corn that avails not to make meal; and even if it should produce it, strangers shall devour it. [this is from the Septuagint-Brendton]
Hosea 8:7 For they sow wind and they will reap a tempest; it has no standing stalks, a sprought that will produce no flour; and if it should somehow produce, strangers will swallow it. [this is from the Artscroll Stone Tanach]
If you read Hosea in all three, you will find a pattern of such differences. I do not think all books of the Bible have this problem, though.
Someone keeps changing the name of Τωβίτ to Τωβίας in the table of books. My copy of the LXX (Brenton's Greek edition) has Τωβίτ. Are their any Greek editions that use Τωβίας? If so, can you give me a reference? No, I don't consider the Vulgate a reference since it translates Tobias from an Aramaic text, and not from the LXX. I don't believe that the name of the book in the Vetus Latina is Tobias either, but I haven't seen an edition from the Vetus Latina. In the Nova Vulgata it is Thobi (genitive Thobis) following some non-Vulgate medieval manuscript or other. Rwflammang 15:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but my edition of the Septuagint calls the book Τωβίτ, not Τωβίας. Of the two forms, Τωβίτ would seem to older (2nd century BC); I know of no earlier example of Tobias than the Vulgate (4th century AD). Jerome translated his Book of Tobias from the Aramaic or Hebrew, not Greek, see Jerome's Prologue to Tobias. If you know of an edition of the LXX that uses a different title, please tell me the reference. Since the titles of the books in the table should reflect what the Septuagint actually calls them, I will change the title to Τωβίτ and provide a reference. If you change it back, I must insist that you do so with a reference. Rwflammang
Obviously, Tobias exists. Tobias is Greek. Tobit is Aramaic. Tobias was the title of the book now commonly called Tobit. It is found in the oldest manuscripts. It was the official Church title for the book. Tobias is used culturally throughout Christendom, but Tobit is not. Whichever one is correct for the book is a question for the article on Book of Tobit. This is an article on an ancient Greek text, not the Aramaic original.
The notes are detailed and accurate (as corrected). In fact their thoroughness blows my mind. They humble me.
Therefore I for one must agree with the consensus.
-
Cestus
Cd
21:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
This article contains several errors in need of correction. I have corrected most of these before, but they seem to come back in as quickly as I can fix them. I'd like to enlist the help of other editors in fixing these problems. Below is a detailed list with references regarding these errors and how to correct them. I hope that many of these errors will be fixed by the time you read this, but I will post these musings anyway, should they recur in the future.
Rwflammang 17:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Having read the article and looked at the sources and citations does anyone here feel that an additional section showing the arguements for Jesus using this exact corpus of work. I presume there would be some counterarguements but I feel a case could be made using citations none-the-less. Any comments? ( Simonapro 18:07, 8 September 2006 (UTC))
I have some problems with the following paragraph:
Is there anything is this paragraph worth saving? Rwflammang 20:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
In the "Christian Use" section, frequent reference to the undefined Jamnian text renders the entire section incomprehensible to the average reader. But taking space to define this term will weigh down the section with mostly irrelevant material; especially since such explanations must note that the very term Jamnian text is controversial as modern scholars doubt any Council of Jamnia ever convened! (See Biblical canon.)
The term Jamnian text in this section seems to be a way of explaining how Jerome and others had access to a complete Hebrew Bible when MT dates from 990 CE. But that this ancient Hebrew text of Jerome's day and MT tend to agree where different from LXX is not adequately addressed. On the contrary, differences between Vulgate and 'The current Hebrew "Tanakh"' (I think MT is meant) are mentioned as if to deny that 'The current Hebrew "Tanakh"' is the legitimate heir to the Hebrew texts of Jerome's time. More reasonably, reference is made later to "the Jamnian/Masoretic tradition."
The section carries the LXX-MT dichotomy too far when it says that new bible translations use the "mediaeval Masoretic text" but consult the "ancient Septuagint." MT is no more a product of the tenth century than LXX is a product of the fifth century (when Codex Vaticanus appeared). MT was pointed by seventh-century Naqdanim and redacted by eighth-to-tenth-century Masoretes; but the consonantal texts they used descended from the same ancient Hebrew texts among which were numbered Jerome's. The texts had already by Jerome's time gone through a large degree of standardization, with many variations preserved in LXX eliminated from the contemporary Hebrew.
To avoid the "Jamnian" confusion, the tendency to anachronsitically refer to an MT in Jerome's time, and the opposing tendency to isolate MT from its ancient antecedents, I recommend the term "contemporary Hebrew text/s." -- Hanina
Please refer to " Council of Jamnia" for background regarding this "Jamnian" controversy. You see, it appears Hanina's remark " as modern scholars doubt any Council of Jamnia ever convened!" was a gross mis-interpretation. Actually, if there is any consensus it is that Jamnia, by most modern scholarly works whether over a 1 year period or a 30 year period, is that it did occur. The little speculation that has arisen, comes via the works of a few. One of these skeptics Jack P. Lewis, in his book The Anchor Bible Dictionary Vol. III, pp. 634-7, specifically, makes the following weak statements in attempting to discredit any "Council of Jamnia"...
"The concept of the Council of Jamnia is an hypothesis to explain the canonization of the Writings (the third division of the Hebrew Bible) resulting in the closing of the Hebrew canon. ... These ongoing debates suggest the paucity of evidence on which the hypothesis of the Council of Jamnia rests and raise the question whether it has not served its usefulness and should be relegated to the limbo of unestablished hypotheses. It should not be allowed to be considered a consensus established by mere repetition of assertion. "
Upon reading, Mr. Lewis, makes several scholarly errors and mis-definitions.
Right from the start, Mr. Lewis, points out a "paucity of evidence". Well, if there was direct evidence then he should not be calling this a "hypothesis". For the definition of hypothesis is an educated proposition accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts. Understanding this we realize that , Mr. Lewis' statement "unestablished hypothesis" is a true oxymoron. If it was firmly established with evidence (in essence a smoking gun) then it would not be called a hypothesis.
However, lets look at the established facts which does make the Council of Jamnia and this Phariseal Jew Canonization highly probable and a legitimate hypothesis for the time of the canonization of what is referred as the "Hebrew" Scriptures.
1. There is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. However, we do know it must have been set some time between 60-200 BC(during the formation of the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls), and the 10th century - the date of the Masoretic Text. With this in mind we need to understand certain pivotal periods in Hebrew/Phariseal Jewish history and the time most likely for this to occur would require the congregation of Phariseal Jews in the Holy Land. Additionally we must understand that even thought there may have been various Jewish divisions of differing powers there was no one single Jewish sect which had superior powers above all other and each utilized various books as scripture. The Saducees held only the Pentatuch(1st five books) as their lone scripture, Essenes to a larger volume of books than the Pharisees, diaspora/Hellenist Jews, Ethiopian Jews and the grand majority of Jews including Christ himself and his Early Church used the Septuagint canon, naturally including Christian Jews.
2. The grand majority of Jews, including those in the Holy Land, at least 200 years before Christ and centuries after did not speak Hebrew they spoke Aramaic (with Greek as the official language), as Christ. Therefore, the predominant use of the Septuagent Old Testament.
3. The destruction of the Temple at 70 AD left Phariseal Jews of Palestine with little to identify themselves and the last they needed is to abide by an exact canon and language used by the newly converted Christian Jews. Thus, a need to discard themselves of any canon connected with the Septuagint canon. (again I remind you it was the Septuagint canon of Old Testament scriptures utilized by Christ and the apostles, as a matter of fact, it is quoted over 300 times in the New Testament included many of Jesus' very own words.) Additionally, the Pharisees realized that the conversion of many Jews to Christianity was directly related with the Septuagent version of the Old Testament with the more explicit language regarding the coming Messiah- for an example see the Book of Wisdom 2:13 and compare it to Matthew 27:43 and Psalms 22:8. Even more reason to hastily establish and close a "Hebrew" (Phariseal) canon to deal with this Christian conversion problem among their very Jewish brethren now that Jews had lost the very central tenement of Judaism, the Temple at Jerusalem.
4. With all this in mind one must question...whom has place the Pharisees, those that rejected Christ and their offspring, Rabbinic Judaism in a position of primacy regarding Hebrew Canon and much less Christian Old Testament Canon? Additionally why could it not be inferred that Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai one of the original founders of Rabbinic Judaism ,whom left to Jamnia after the temple was destroyed and was a central figure in the codification the Mishna oral law during the late 1st century did not also at the very least initiate the formulation of the Hebrew (truly a "Phariseal" Hebrew) Canon during that same time. Consequently, the "hypothesis" of the Council of Jamnia and the establishment of the "Hebrew" canon.
Lastly, the bottom line is that the Pharisees had no more say with regard to the final codification of Old Testament Scripture than any other Jewish sect of Jesus' time. Neither one of these groups had any superior authority among themselves, even less-so over the Early Christian Church. The Church which WAS given the authority- by Christ- to bind or loosen as is well documented in scripture in Matthew 16:18-19: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
And it was that very same church, which did finally "bind" the entire Word of God, not simply half- the New Testament canon, but also the Old as well as the New Testament to provide all Christians the entire written Word of God, as authorized by Christ. This occurred during the Synods of Hippo and Carthage of 393 and 397 AD. (NOTE: All Christians accept the authority of these synods in providing the New Testament canon. Yet what many Christians are illinformed of, is that the purpose of these meetings was closing the entire written Word of God not simply the New Testament. Therefore, if a they accept its authority in providing the New Testament canon then they must also accept their consensus regarding the Old Testament canon. Instead of giving Christ rejecting Phariseal Jews the authority to tamper with half of the word of God.) Micael 16:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but Josephus, Philo, and the Talmud all confirm that only the 5 books of the Torah were translated into Greek during the 3rd century. The rest of the current day Septuagint was not translated by those that translated the Torah, and they were translated by who knows who over the next 300 or so years. The entire Septuagint was pretty much useless in terms of conveying what the Hebrew actually said by the 3rd century.
Origen tried piecing together a decent translation with about 6 side by side and came to the following conclusion:
"“we are forthwith to reject as spurious the copies in use in our Churches, and enjoin the brotherhood to put away the sacred books current among them, and to coax the Jews, and persuade them to give us copies which shall be untampered with, and free from forgery!” Origen, A Letter from Origen to Africanus, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 4.]"
Anyway, today's Christian Old Testaments are full of errors that spawn from this.
I must assume that the statement that the Septuagint means pretty much what the Hebrew meant was taken from one of the sources and not the statement of somebody who has read the Hebrew. I have read both and the Septuagint is so far off in so many cases that it is not even wrong. The Greek translators had no clue how to handle the construct in Hebrew and that leads to a lot of nonsense.
You cannot possibly be saying that a grammatical structure that appears in the Talmud -- which predates the Masoretic -- did not exist in the Pentateuch when the Septuagint was written because you obviously understand that you cannot prove a negative.
Oh, you have seen the Dead Sea scrolls or photographs of the text? I thought I had found a publication on CD but I changed to a different page on the Web and couldn't find it again. Do you have a copy and is that what you're using for a basis? Please tell me the title and so on so I can find it. I remember it was pretty expensive but maybe the price will come within my range or I can save up to get it.