I'm going to move this article to put in the comma missing after "2001" in the title. Maurreen 12:46, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Moral of the story: Ask first. If a lot of people scream bloody murder, then don't. Furthermore, I should point out that while the article has no comma, the talk page does. Schism! -- Golbez 17:05, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
I've just searched on google under 'September 11, 2001 attacks' - this version wins out easily. Jongarrettuk 20:20, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The link on the Village Pump discussion goes to the style guide of a German wire service. Germany's a great places, but it's not the best authority on English usage. Nor is the number of Google hits, as someone mentioned in a discussion elsewhere. I have at least three references that say a comma should be used in a construction such as "September 11, 2001, attacks." Does anyone have anything authoritative to counter that?
If the majority of you want to leave the comma out, so be it. But the title will be substandard. Or does anyone want to compromise? Maybe we can find a title none of us disagree with. Maurreen 01:08, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Common usage is not synonymous with correct usage. Here are a few references. I can probably find more without much trouble.
Maurreen says 'common usage is not synonymous with correct usage'. Ummm, yes it is. English is a living language, it changes, it does not obey strict rules. If most people phrase something a particular way, it is, necessarily, accepted usage. And accepted usage changes.
Manuals of style, or at least the good ones, seek to report how people actually use language. Just like an encyclopaedia does not determine what something means, nor does a manual of style prescribe - it reports. If the language people use changes so that it is different from a manual of style, the manual is out of date. This may, or may not, mean that the old usage is considered 'wrong', it can never mean the new usage is 'wrong'. In particular, it means that a manual of style can never be a determinant of 'correct' language, it can only report what the authors (one hopes after research) have found, at that time, to be common usage.
So where are we? If two commas is used frequently by the writers above, and by many others - this is strong evidence that it is 'correct' US English. Similarly if one comma is used frequently by others - it may also be 'correct'. Google is, of course, no determinant, but it is indicative of common usage, particularly of US English. It shows one comma as being clearly the more common usage, this is strong evidence that the one comma variant is standard (ie 'correct') US English too. There are, of course, also many articles with two commas - which reinforces the argument that the two comma variant is a commonly accepted usage. Conclusion; on the evidence available, both the one and two comma variants are used in standard US English, and in this sense both may be considered 'correct'.
As far as what the article should be called. I'd still suggest 9/11 as it is the most common way this is referred to in the English speaking world - it's certainly referred to 9/11 in UK English. If the 'September 11 2001 attacks' formula is kept, there are good reasons for just having the one comma version. (1) The one comma version appears to be the most common version; (2) The two comma version is jarring to a non-American - it just looks wrong (even if it is an acceptable variant in US English). This is an International encyclopaedia, so point (2) is a strong argument. The one comma version should prevail. Jongarrettuk 19:13, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Here's my thinking: " September 11, 2001 attacks" is the name of the attacks. Names don't have to be grammatically correct. Note that a Hello world program ought to be a "Hello, world" program, but no one uses this (correct) construction, so the name should be "Hello world", even though the name uses incorrect grammar. (In a more base example, the Perineum is called a 'tain't, but there is no redirect for 'tisn't.) I think a proper article should say "The 'September 11, 2001 attacks' were carried out on September 11, 2001, by al-Qaida." See the difference? – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 11:56, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
Working toward a compromise: Does anyone object to either of these?
See rationale against the one-comma version.
Please feel free to add anything needed above. Maurreen 06:25, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC) Just a note to say I have felt free to add to the above and have, indeed, done so. Jongarrettuk 06:46, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC) as has Shorne
FYI, the officially authorized Library of Congress subject heading--which controls what to look under in your library's catalog--is "September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001". PedanticallySpeaking 20:50, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
Please accept my apologies for forgetting about the rest of the English-speaking world; the Library of Congress's decisions in general control how America's libraries catalog books. Please also understand that I am talking about subject headings and not call numbers--i.e. the Dewey Decimal System and the Library of Congress classification are not at issue.
Now, the overwhelming majority of libraries in America do not catalog books themselves but rely on the Cataloging in Publication data supplied by the Library of Congress appearing on the title page verso of books. Second, librarians use what is called a "controlled vocabulary". This entire debate we're having on what to call the September 11th article is a good example. There's several different places we could put this article, just as there's several different phrases to describe "nuclear power" (e.g. "atomic power," "nuclear energy," "nuclear fission", etc.) What the Library of Congress does is create an "authorized" subject heading so that no matter what library you go into, all the books on "nuclear power" will be under that heading; it puts libraries on the same page. Most libraries in America use them exclusively and any library of any size will have the big set of red books containing all the subject headings authorized, fully cross-referenced with alternatives. There are a few libraries that put in additional subject headings beyond what's in the CIP data or create their own subject headings--e.g., the Hennepin County, Minnesota, public library was famous for its cataloging work under the iconoclastic
Sanford Berman--but once the Library of Congress has spoken, generally that's what America's libraries use. Now, I know the Canadian Library and the British Library, which do the CIP work in their countries, uses different headings, so sometimes you'll find a book with CIP data from more than one and they never agree. Would be curious to know what the approved British and Canadian subject headings are for this topic. Finally, the entire LC authorities file is available on the web at
http://authorities.loc.gov/.
PedanticallySpeaking 15:43, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
Shall we narrow things down and mark which options we support or oppose?
I realized I neglected to set a duration for the poll. I think we can let it run a week from when it opened, Oct. 6 through Oct. 13. Maurreen 09:25, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone want a run-off between "September 11, 2001 attacks" and "Attacks of September 11, 2001"? Maurreen 05:01, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Since the previous vote has shown there is no consensus for change and it is clear there is no alternative with unanimous or near unanimous support, I think it's time to draw a veil over this discussion and leave the page where it is. I'm also conscious that people who are quite happy with what the article is called now would have had no need to go to the talk page to even see this vote and that in the vote, the current title is the most supported one. jguk 06:16, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As a proper noun it should be September 11, 2001 Attacks. so all of these are wrong! Dunc| ☺ 11:28, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please indicate supporting votes for either option and update the tally in parentheses. This poll will run for a week, from Oct. 15 through Oct. 21. Maurreen 15:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Comments:
Sadly, it looks like there wasn't consensus (although the former version received a small plurality). I'm not sure what to do from here. – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 21:22, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
I'm going to move this article to put in the comma missing after "2001" in the title. Maurreen 12:46, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Moral of the story: Ask first. If a lot of people scream bloody murder, then don't. Furthermore, I should point out that while the article has no comma, the talk page does. Schism! -- Golbez 17:05, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
I've just searched on google under 'September 11, 2001 attacks' - this version wins out easily. Jongarrettuk 20:20, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The link on the Village Pump discussion goes to the style guide of a German wire service. Germany's a great places, but it's not the best authority on English usage. Nor is the number of Google hits, as someone mentioned in a discussion elsewhere. I have at least three references that say a comma should be used in a construction such as "September 11, 2001, attacks." Does anyone have anything authoritative to counter that?
If the majority of you want to leave the comma out, so be it. But the title will be substandard. Or does anyone want to compromise? Maybe we can find a title none of us disagree with. Maurreen 01:08, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Common usage is not synonymous with correct usage. Here are a few references. I can probably find more without much trouble.
Maurreen says 'common usage is not synonymous with correct usage'. Ummm, yes it is. English is a living language, it changes, it does not obey strict rules. If most people phrase something a particular way, it is, necessarily, accepted usage. And accepted usage changes.
Manuals of style, or at least the good ones, seek to report how people actually use language. Just like an encyclopaedia does not determine what something means, nor does a manual of style prescribe - it reports. If the language people use changes so that it is different from a manual of style, the manual is out of date. This may, or may not, mean that the old usage is considered 'wrong', it can never mean the new usage is 'wrong'. In particular, it means that a manual of style can never be a determinant of 'correct' language, it can only report what the authors (one hopes after research) have found, at that time, to be common usage.
So where are we? If two commas is used frequently by the writers above, and by many others - this is strong evidence that it is 'correct' US English. Similarly if one comma is used frequently by others - it may also be 'correct'. Google is, of course, no determinant, but it is indicative of common usage, particularly of US English. It shows one comma as being clearly the more common usage, this is strong evidence that the one comma variant is standard (ie 'correct') US English too. There are, of course, also many articles with two commas - which reinforces the argument that the two comma variant is a commonly accepted usage. Conclusion; on the evidence available, both the one and two comma variants are used in standard US English, and in this sense both may be considered 'correct'.
As far as what the article should be called. I'd still suggest 9/11 as it is the most common way this is referred to in the English speaking world - it's certainly referred to 9/11 in UK English. If the 'September 11 2001 attacks' formula is kept, there are good reasons for just having the one comma version. (1) The one comma version appears to be the most common version; (2) The two comma version is jarring to a non-American - it just looks wrong (even if it is an acceptable variant in US English). This is an International encyclopaedia, so point (2) is a strong argument. The one comma version should prevail. Jongarrettuk 19:13, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Here's my thinking: " September 11, 2001 attacks" is the name of the attacks. Names don't have to be grammatically correct. Note that a Hello world program ought to be a "Hello, world" program, but no one uses this (correct) construction, so the name should be "Hello world", even though the name uses incorrect grammar. (In a more base example, the Perineum is called a 'tain't, but there is no redirect for 'tisn't.) I think a proper article should say "The 'September 11, 2001 attacks' were carried out on September 11, 2001, by al-Qaida." See the difference? – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 11:56, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
Working toward a compromise: Does anyone object to either of these?
See rationale against the one-comma version.
Please feel free to add anything needed above. Maurreen 06:25, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC) Just a note to say I have felt free to add to the above and have, indeed, done so. Jongarrettuk 06:46, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC) as has Shorne
FYI, the officially authorized Library of Congress subject heading--which controls what to look under in your library's catalog--is "September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001". PedanticallySpeaking 20:50, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
Please accept my apologies for forgetting about the rest of the English-speaking world; the Library of Congress's decisions in general control how America's libraries catalog books. Please also understand that I am talking about subject headings and not call numbers--i.e. the Dewey Decimal System and the Library of Congress classification are not at issue.
Now, the overwhelming majority of libraries in America do not catalog books themselves but rely on the Cataloging in Publication data supplied by the Library of Congress appearing on the title page verso of books. Second, librarians use what is called a "controlled vocabulary". This entire debate we're having on what to call the September 11th article is a good example. There's several different places we could put this article, just as there's several different phrases to describe "nuclear power" (e.g. "atomic power," "nuclear energy," "nuclear fission", etc.) What the Library of Congress does is create an "authorized" subject heading so that no matter what library you go into, all the books on "nuclear power" will be under that heading; it puts libraries on the same page. Most libraries in America use them exclusively and any library of any size will have the big set of red books containing all the subject headings authorized, fully cross-referenced with alternatives. There are a few libraries that put in additional subject headings beyond what's in the CIP data or create their own subject headings--e.g., the Hennepin County, Minnesota, public library was famous for its cataloging work under the iconoclastic
Sanford Berman--but once the Library of Congress has spoken, generally that's what America's libraries use. Now, I know the Canadian Library and the British Library, which do the CIP work in their countries, uses different headings, so sometimes you'll find a book with CIP data from more than one and they never agree. Would be curious to know what the approved British and Canadian subject headings are for this topic. Finally, the entire LC authorities file is available on the web at
http://authorities.loc.gov/.
PedanticallySpeaking 15:43, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
Shall we narrow things down and mark which options we support or oppose?
I realized I neglected to set a duration for the poll. I think we can let it run a week from when it opened, Oct. 6 through Oct. 13. Maurreen 09:25, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone want a run-off between "September 11, 2001 attacks" and "Attacks of September 11, 2001"? Maurreen 05:01, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Since the previous vote has shown there is no consensus for change and it is clear there is no alternative with unanimous or near unanimous support, I think it's time to draw a veil over this discussion and leave the page where it is. I'm also conscious that people who are quite happy with what the article is called now would have had no need to go to the talk page to even see this vote and that in the vote, the current title is the most supported one. jguk 06:16, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As a proper noun it should be September 11, 2001 Attacks. so all of these are wrong! Dunc| ☺ 11:28, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please indicate supporting votes for either option and update the tally in parentheses. This poll will run for a week, from Oct. 15 through Oct. 21. Maurreen 15:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Comments:
Sadly, it looks like there wasn't consensus (although the former version received a small plurality). I'm not sure what to do from here. – Quadell ( talk) ( help)[[]] 21:22, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)