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See also Casualties Talk, US governmental response Talk and Hijackers Talk.
Old talk archived at:
By the way, where do we discuss reversion of talk pages? We need talk talk pages I guess, with SheikYerBooty around lumping all these sections back into one long ramble. Going to be hell to pay when it comes time to archive, it's much easier to rename the sections rather than delete them and inevitably have to add them back in later. Measure once and cut twice, SheikYerBooty, that's what my dad always told me. - Plautus satire 05:44, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Why is there a link to Globalisation?? It doesn't seem particularly relevant and should be removed. pir 04:54, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Plautus, I've removed the intentionally disruptive and misleading section headings that you gratuitously inserted into the middle of other users' responses. Your constant manipulation of talk pages make it's very difficult for interested observers and participants to follow the discussion. -- SheikYerBooty 05:37, Feb 26, 2004 (UTC)
"bin Laden" is indeed Osama's family name (or patronym, more precisely): it means "son of Laden". His full name is Osama bin Mohammed bin Laden (Mohammed is his father's name, Laden is his grandfather's, from whom the rest of his family take their last name). See http://www.arab.net/arabnames/ for more info on the Arab naming conventions and http://www.interpol.int/public/Wanted/Notices/Data/1998/32/1998_20232.asp for how it applies to OBL specifically. -- ChrisO 10:17, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Someone just added a section on 9/11 as war crimes. I would have thought that the reason several countries enacted specific anti-terrorism laws was that this wasn't a matter of war crimes. Anyone know how international law applies to this? Rmhermen 13:49, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)
(Unindenting, for readability). Declaration or otherwise is a separate issue (see below). Merriam Webster: "war: a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations". Or try the UN: "Act of Terrorism = Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime". Take your pick- terrorism or war crime? Markalexander100 06:06, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
And in black and white:
Unsurprisingly, Al Quaeda is not a party to either treaty. Markalexander100 08:22, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
No- look further down in article 2 (Geneva 4): "Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof." In other words, a signatory need only follow the convention against a non-signatory if the non-signatory voluntarily follows it (the Guantanamo point); AQ certainly hasn't followed it, but the corollary is simply that the US is not bound by the convention regarding AQ, not that AQ is bound. Trust me, I'm a lawyer. ;) Markalexander100 01:33, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Certainly they can't benefit from it- that's the Guantanamo point. But not benefiting from a treaty is not the same as being liable under it. AQ is not a party to the treaty. Therefore the treaty imposes no obligations on it. This is a basic principle of international law: a treaty between countries A and B can't impose duties on country C (or even group of homicidal fanatics C). September 11 was many things, but a war crime under Geneva 4 or Hague it was not. Markalexander100 05:34, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
We may be in sight of some sort of agreement! How about: "The September 11 attacks would have been war crimes if they had been carried out by a party to the Hague Convention and Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibit X Y and Z. However, because AQ is not a party to these conventions, criminal liability falls to be determined under US domestic law rather than international law". Markalexander100 06:12, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Right, I've put that wording in. The possible connections between AQ and various states (Saudi Arabia? Pakistan?) are very shadowy; I doubt there's much we can usefully say about it. As far as I know, the US government didn't even accuse Afghanistan of having an active part in the plot. Let's save that one for another day. Markalexander100 07:10, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have just removed the point about no declaration of war from the war crimes section and I thought I should justify this. The list is stated to be a partial, easily justifiable, non-complete list of war crimes that could be charged over 9/11. In keeping with this I thought it important to remove anything that could be easily argued against. The statments attributed to OBL in the articles from date prior to September 2001 clearly say that his organization is fighting against the US, this in effect a declaration of war. Yes I accept that it isn't a formal decrlaration of war, but Al Qadeir (spelling?) are not a true state actor and can't really enter into standard formal declarations. Anyway I thought it better not to include an arguable point in a partial list Steven jones 05:45, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is there any claim by al-quaeda that they attacked the towers? Any evidence or judgement that they did? It seems to me that this is an assumption that was not established as fact. am I wrong? Pedant 02:17, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Looking at recent edits, I think too much meaning is being placed on "Why 9/11"? Especially remember that, in most of the world, 9/11/2001 is 11.9.2001. I think that is true in Saudi Arabia, country of most of the hijackers, even assuming that would run to the common calendar rather than the Arabic one for arcane meaning.
As to the issue of rescue personnel, New York had plenty on hand--look how many were on the scene to die in such a short time after the first plane hit.
I remember the day well, living in New York. It was a clear day, perfect for minimally experienced pilots to navigate to and hit the towers. If the day had been overcast (especially since the tops of the towers were often shrouded in fog or clouds) they may have had to pick a different day. This is not my original theory, but it makes sense. Cecropia 23:50, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hi,
9/11 was a week after the end of congress' summer holiday. Therefore, most of the congressmen and US senators were in the Capitole. And the 4th plane was suposed to be crashed on that monument. I think that's an explanation given by the 9/11 comission.
Please justify removal of this paragraph:
Newer version:
This entire passage was put there by Plautus Satire (now banned for a year by the way) as part of some sort of implication that at least some of the Sep 11 hijackers were still alive and there was some kind of FBI conspiracy in which false names were knowingly sent out by the FBI - or something like that anyway. It is a bit hard to follow exactly what he was trying to say, but its reliability and neutrality must be held in doubt. Once again, we can do without that kind of POV thing in this article. Period.
Putting this aside, there is the question of relevancy. What we have listed here is a stage in FBI investigations that took place after the events of the day, in which it was established that some of the hijackers had suspect IDs. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not really relevant to an area that gives earlier revelations as to what organisation was behind the attacks. The newer version quoted above is certainly better, but the irrelevancy remains. Perhaps this should go to the Sep 11 timelines.
Actually, the whole "earlier revelations" bit does bother me, because it reads more like a subjective "it was America's fault!" essay than a NPOV account of evidence uncovered and statements issued as to who was behind the attacks. But my main problem is just that first paragraph.
BTW, I'm also puzzled about this section's title- the hijackers were victims?? How does that make sense? Arno 10:11, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm surprised at KingTurtle, an admin, removing the word "terrorist" from the description of the 9/11 attacks as POV. I don't even think the terrorists themselves think the attacks (at least the 3000 non-combtanat civilians killed in the WTC attack) weren't terror attacks. What were they then. If these attacks aren't terrorist we should simply delete the entry under terrorism in Wikipedia, and give it a REDIRECT to newspeak. Cecropia 00:28, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
APPENDIX
Further speculation and studies of September 11, 2001 attacks:
A few key contemporary/historical terms and concerns:
- U.S. Government support of Al-Quaeda in the Balkans - U.S., Brittish, and Saudi Oil companies and Bin Laden - Anti-Israeli/American Movements (such as Black September / Abu Nidal which date back decades) - March 11, 2004 Spanish Attack - Mysterious death of Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone following September 11. - Significance of the language barrier in U.S. anti-terrorist intelligence. - Credible experts in related fields:
John Wolfsthal Joseph Wilson John Hamre James Woolsey Anthony Cordesman Robert Baer Rachel Bronson
Speculative research: http://whitecloud.com/wag_the_dog.htm#Did bin Laden have help from U.S. friends
Is the symbolic meaning of 9/11 discussed anywhere in Wikipedia? Obviously, mass killing was not the only purpose of the perpetrators. What they attacked were symbols of America's economic (WTC) and military (Pentagon) dominance (they probably also wanted to hit the White House - symbol of America's political power).
--
Kpalion 15:45, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The article says "There were early plans to have 20 hijackers". I know of no evidence that this is the case. Can this be verified? Quadell 02:31, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
WhisperToMe: the U.S. Government no longer asserts that. [ News24.com] The FBI asserts that Moussaoui "played no part in the 9/11 scheme and was only a minor player in al-Qaeda."
In regards to the phrase "twentieth hijacker", what I mean is, I've heard it often asserted that there were to be a fifth hijacker on the fourth plane, bringing the total to twenty. But I've never heard any support for this claim besides the tenuous "Well, there were five on the others. . ." That seems a pretty weak rationale for the dramatic assertion that there is a would-be 9/11 hijacker that got away.
(This is wholly separate from the suggestion that other planes were to be hijacked. There are unconfirmed reports that other hijackings were prevented by flight delays or the flight ban. The UK even reported that hijackers were going to crash a plane into Big Ben, but were stopped, although no evidence of this was offered.)
Zacarias Moussaoui was in contact with the 9/11 hijackers, and considers himself a member of al-Qaeda, but there is no evidence (that I know of) that he was ever slated to be a 9/11 hijacker. The Justice Department no longer contends he was ever a "twentieth hijacker".
Ramzi Binalshibh may have also been a "twentieth hijacker", but again, I know of no evidence. It seems to me equally likely that al-Qaeda planned to have six hijackers per plane, and five were prevented -- or that al-Qaeda simply wanted to have at least four per plane, and divided their resources semi-equally. I don't think "twenty" is a magic number to anyone except the pundits. Speaking of "the role of the 20th hijacker" is just speculation.
I therefore suggest that the following paragraph:
. . .be replaced with:
Quadell 14:20, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Suggestion objected to. The revelations are as reported by Yosri Fouda , who has a lot of research on Al-Qaeda. I suggest that you read "Masterminds of Terror", by Yosri Fouda and Nick Fielding, or do some google searching (eg this page or this one).
The sources - what the terrorists said - also appear at the top of the passage , that you're disputing, as terrorist admissions. This change that you want means that you are in effect misquoting them. What the terrorists have stated to is first hand stuff. Arno 09:03, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be links to our Propaganda wikipedia entry? Consider the terms "misinformation", and "disinformation". These two terms came into full bloom during and following the 911 fiasco. Given that we will not know what happened for decades if ever, we should allow for dicussion of conflicting information.
Recently I suggested replacing one paragraph with another. A few days later, when no one had yet objected, I made the change. Afterwards, Arno objected and reverted it. The two paragraphs, before and after, are above.
As I see it, there are still inaccuracies in the paragraph as it now stands, and I think they ought to be fixed.
First of all, Arno directed me to the following fascinating article. It reveals that Binalshibh was selected to be a pilot, but that he couldn't get into the U.S. and had to be replaced. Only afterwards were the other hijackers selected. The article doesn't support the notion that "there were early plans to have 20 hijackers". I suspect the "20 highjackers" idea is an invention by the press. I don't know of any evidence that al-Qaeda considered 20 to be better than 19 or 21. So I'd recommend references to "the role of 20th hijacker" be removed.
Second, the paragraph as it now stands baldly states "Zacarias Moussaoui was considered for the role of the 20th hijacker, but plans to include him were never finalized, as the al-Qaeda hierarchy had doubts about his reliability." That doesn't seem to be the case. I know of no evidence that Moussaoui was involved in any way with 9/11. The FBI no longer asserts Moussaoui was involved in the 9/11 attacks. Why is it stated as a fact?
I'd recommend replacing the paragraph with something factual we can agree on. And I'd recommend that no one unilaterally revert it afterwards.
Here's my suggestion:
What does everyone think? Can this be improved?
Quadell 16:55, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I say that this paragraph is wrong, period, and it's best improved by getting rid of it.
What was said originally was based on al-Jazeera interviews and what was released by US authorities.
As regards Moussaoui, the terrorists stated that he was considered as the 20th hijacker and even trained for it. He was linked to the terrorist cells that carried out the Sep 11 attacks. But he was never made part of the plot because he was considered unsuitable( too clumsy, apparently). See Chapter 9 of the book I mentioned above, or try this recent article for an account dated April 15, as opposed to the News24 article which is dated October last year. Also, try this April 14 article as a second source about the FBI and Moussaoui. They tie Moussaoui in with the Sep 11 plot, albeit dormantly. Also, try this msnbcand this jihad watch article. One hypothesis was that he was going to be part of a series of followup attacks.
At no point did I say that there were 21 hijackers. Ramzi was considered for the 20th. When this fell through, Moussaoui was considered but never included. Period.
The article also says that Khalid originally wanted to use ten planes (five each) on the US east and west coasts, but that this got cancelled very early on. The Washington Post article supports this. So do this Australian article and this one.
All this is also supported in an interrogation report that admittedly I have not seen.
Sources enough, I think, to justify my move that this whole attempt at rewording this paragraph on the grounds given was ill-advised.
On another note, you lodged your proposal during Easter , when I was away on wikivacation. I suspect that others were, too. Hence the delay in responding to the incorrect statements. Arno 08:25, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The main problem with the paragraph as it stands, is that it doesn't attribute its info. It sounds like the writer of the paragraph was a terrorist and knew exactly what happened. Why not add something like "According to law enforcement officials, Khalid said that..." Mdchachi 13:04, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have begun to feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall.
That entire "Recent Statements and Revelations" passage reports "the things that were said to be revealed in [the] interrogations of Khalid and Moussaoui " and from "an exclusive interview with al Jazeera journalist Yosro Fauda in September 2002", to quote from that passage. That was the whole point of that entire passage - to say what these revelations were, rather than to list as Gospel fact. They may not be true, maybe there are inded things missing in what but that is not what the passage says!! If you have followup revelations, or proof that disproves these statements, then I am sure that you will let me know what they are and their sources.
You seem constantly intent on changing what was said on those occasions, all based on one newstory, one source that has since been superseded. Where does your allegation of "speculation" come into it? Are you trying to say that these things were not said in the al-Jazeera interview or during the interrogation of Khalid and Ramzi???
I am also at a loss as to your logic on one matter. You agree that Ramzi Binalshibh was supposed to be the 20th hijacker.
The paragraph you are so intent on changing says that the final list consisted of 19 hijackers. Yet you keep saying that this is wrong and that there was no intention to have 20 hijackers!
You have, I presume, now changed your mind about Moussaoui's links to the Sep 11 terrorists.
However, I see no practical difference between "Binalshibh said Moussaoui was briefly considered as an understudy." and "Zacarias Moussaoui was considered for the role of the 20th hijacker". The idea of his getting involved in followup attacks was news to me - you have at least enlightened me to that - but my sentence allows more leeway.
Have a quickpoll? Well, that would be a last resort for me. In view of what I've written above, how necessary is it?
Arno 09:23, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to list what crimes these would have been had the parties committing them been states? They are clearly not states, and I don't think other articles about crimes have equivalent passages saying what kind of war crimes they would have been if the culprets had been parties to the Geneva Conventions? Appreciating the seriousness of the attack, but it does seem pretty irrelevant. Am I way off base here? Mark Richards 21:11, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList488/256CFA98B1DCE442C1256CF6002D63F0
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList488/3C2914F52152E565C1256E60005C84C0
Maurreen 07:42, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following: " In addition, Larry Silvertstein, who held a seven-week-old lease on One and Two World Trade Center, claimed in an interview that he, jointly with the New York Fire Department, made the decision to deliberately demolish Seven World Trade Center, also known as the Solomon Building, which he also owned, and which was then the headquarters of the crisis and disaster command center for the mayor of New York City."
While the popular suject of alternate theories concerning 9-11, this is not an accepted fact. For one, the FEMA report contradicts it. At the very least it cannot go in the article at the top as a fact. Perhaps later in a deeper discussion of both sides. Rmhermen 04:16, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
"In a stunning and belated development concerning the attacks of 9/11 Larry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated plainly in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish the Solomon Bros. building, or WTC 7, late in the afternoon of Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001."www.prisonplanet.com/011704wtc7.html]
"This admission appeared in a PBS documentary originally aired in Sept. of 2002 entitled "America Rebuilds". Mr Silverstein's comments came after FEMA and the Society of Civil Engineers conducted an extensive and costly investigation into the curious collapse of WTC 7. The study specifically concluded that the building had collapsed as a result of the inferno within, sparked, apparently, by debris falling from the crumbling North Tower." [8]
"Larry Silverstein, the leaseholder of the World Trade Center complex, stood to gain $500 million, and the federal government gave the order to destroy WTC7 late in the afternoon of September 11, 2001 (InfoWars article). Silverstein's revelation is on the PBS documentary 'America Rebuilds' (MP3 audio file) and a cleanup program for building 6 (MP3 audio file)." [9]www.prisonplanet.com/pullit.mp3]www.prisonplanet.com/pullit2.mp3]
"Check out this RealVideo clip from the PBS documentary, "America Rebuilds." In it, Larry Silverstein, the leaseholder on the World Trade Center complex in Manahattan, admits that WTC 7 was "pulled," that is, intentionally demolished:" [10]("UPDATE: Higher-res mpg on another server" [11])
"You can hear Silverstein say this by downloading VestigialConscience.com/PullIt.mp3 - HERE *." [12]
"In addition, we received communications from Mr. Jeremy Baker expressing concern that WTC 7 was in fact purposely demolished by its owner Larry Silverstein at 5:20 p.m. on 911. As evidence, Mr. Baker provides a PBS documentary that was aired on September 2002 titled "America Rebuilds". In the documentary Larry Silverstein is heard saying, "I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."" [13]
"Mr. Silverstein's comments stand in direct contradiction to the findings of the extensive FEMA report. They even negate Kevin Spacey's narrative in the very documentary in which they appear; "WTC7 fell after burning for 7 hours." If it had been generally known that the building was "pulled" wouldn't Mr. Spacey have phrased it that way?" [14]
I'm curious. What makes you say that it's not an established fact? FEMA disagrees? Larry Silverstein said he demolished his own building. If FEMA disagrees perhaps they can explain why Larry Silverstein lied as well. Is Larry Silverstein a liar? Is that your contention? That the FEMA investigation overrules Larry Silverstein's recollections from that day? Energybone 05:49, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
"It is now known that this fire was fuelled by 28,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored underneath the building. Ironically, this fuel was intended to power the emergency generators for Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani's command center, the Secret Service's office and other tenants." [15]
"The dispute focused on the Seven World Trade Center site investigation, where above-ground diesel tanks were considered a possible source of the raging fire that destroyed the building. The tanks were installed four years ago, over the city Fire Department's objections, to provide emergency power to former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's doomed emergency command center on the 23rd floor." [16]
"The 23rd floor of Building 7 had received 15 million dollars worth of renovations to create an emergency command center for Mayor Rudolf Giuliani. The features of the command center include [17]:
"These renovations were applied only to the 23rd floor." [18] [19]
Are you still unwilling to accept the facts? Energybone 05:58, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
I think the best thing is to say who says who. That way, we can decide who is telling the truth for ourselves. :) WhisperToMe 05:59, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
"The deal was finalized and celebrated on the 23rd July -just seven weeks before almost the entire complex was destroyed. Port Authority officers gave a giant set of keys to the complex to Silverstein and to Westfield CEO Lowy." [20]
"Larry Silverstein purchased a $3.2 billion, 99-year lease of the World Trade Center in July 2001, along with the above mentioned partner Westfield America for the shopping parts. Silverstein took control of the 10-million-square-foot trophy office complex just seven weeks before it was destroyed by terrorist attacks." [21]
"Silverstein, who took control of the 10-million-square-foot trophy office complex just seven weeks before it was destroyed by a terrorist attack, said a memorial at the site to the victims of the attack "is necessary and totally appropriate.”" [22]
"The conditional settlement ends a two-year dispute between the companies and allows site reconstruction to proceed without lengthy delays. GMAC lent $563 million to the part-owner of the World Trade Center seven weeks before the terrorist attacks destroyed New York's twin towers." [23]
"Late last year, General Motors Corp.'s giant lending arm, GMAC settled a lawsuit it filed against Silverstein and the site's owner, seeking repayment of the $563 million it lent to the World Trade Center's owners just seven weeks before the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks." [24]
There certainly seems to be a broad and deep coalition of people who concertedly perpetrate this hoax, because these "unaccepted facts" have been reported again, and again, and now yet again here, again and again and again. How much proof is required to get facts into an entry? At what point do they cease being facts and become UNDENIABLE FACTS? Energybone 06:10, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
If a FEMA report conflicts, and that's a United States governmental agency we are talking about here, we HAVE to do a X said this, Y said this scenario. WhisperToMe 06:47, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
I have no problem with citing the FEMA report that conflicts with Larry Silverstein's own statements, particularly his admission that he had the building demolished. Since he is the one who ordered the demolition, I think it's safe to say he's a more reliable source than the FEMA-come-latelies who were trying to put the pieces back together after Larry Silverstein orders those pieces taken apart. It's probably still in there somewhere, that entry is enormous and needs a good housecleaning. There's no reason for it to be that huge. Energybone 06:58, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Okay you need to back up and check your facts. The documentary appeared on PBS, and Larry Silverstein (NOT SILVERSTONE AS YOU ERRONEOUSLY STATE) plainly stated that he had the building demolished. If you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion then you need to take some remedial English lessons. Energybone 18:44, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
No, I would rather link to the PBS documentary itself. WhisperToMe 18:51, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Tillwe, why do you and Rheanurmanurmnherm keep taking out these facts and replacing them with the erroneous statement that the intentional demolition of Seven World Trade Center is a THEORY? It's clearly NOT a theory, it's an easily verifiable fact, and a fact Silverstein (NOT SILVERSTONE) admits publically, as if he's some sort of hero for demolishing the building. Energybone 18:53, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Because if the FEMA report is contradictory to Silverstein's claims, then the claims should be called a "claim". They can be mentioned, yes, but only as what Silverstein says. WhisperToMe 21:01, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
No web links maintained by PBS do, but this video may: http://shop.pbs.org/products/AREB901/ - It is temporairly out of stock. WhisperToMe 21:09, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
See also Casualties Talk, US governmental response Talk and Hijackers Talk.
Old talk archived at:
By the way, where do we discuss reversion of talk pages? We need talk talk pages I guess, with SheikYerBooty around lumping all these sections back into one long ramble. Going to be hell to pay when it comes time to archive, it's much easier to rename the sections rather than delete them and inevitably have to add them back in later. Measure once and cut twice, SheikYerBooty, that's what my dad always told me. - Plautus satire 05:44, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Why is there a link to Globalisation?? It doesn't seem particularly relevant and should be removed. pir 04:54, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Plautus, I've removed the intentionally disruptive and misleading section headings that you gratuitously inserted into the middle of other users' responses. Your constant manipulation of talk pages make it's very difficult for interested observers and participants to follow the discussion. -- SheikYerBooty 05:37, Feb 26, 2004 (UTC)
"bin Laden" is indeed Osama's family name (or patronym, more precisely): it means "son of Laden". His full name is Osama bin Mohammed bin Laden (Mohammed is his father's name, Laden is his grandfather's, from whom the rest of his family take their last name). See http://www.arab.net/arabnames/ for more info on the Arab naming conventions and http://www.interpol.int/public/Wanted/Notices/Data/1998/32/1998_20232.asp for how it applies to OBL specifically. -- ChrisO 10:17, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Someone just added a section on 9/11 as war crimes. I would have thought that the reason several countries enacted specific anti-terrorism laws was that this wasn't a matter of war crimes. Anyone know how international law applies to this? Rmhermen 13:49, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)
(Unindenting, for readability). Declaration or otherwise is a separate issue (see below). Merriam Webster: "war: a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations". Or try the UN: "Act of Terrorism = Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime". Take your pick- terrorism or war crime? Markalexander100 06:06, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
And in black and white:
Unsurprisingly, Al Quaeda is not a party to either treaty. Markalexander100 08:22, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
No- look further down in article 2 (Geneva 4): "Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof." In other words, a signatory need only follow the convention against a non-signatory if the non-signatory voluntarily follows it (the Guantanamo point); AQ certainly hasn't followed it, but the corollary is simply that the US is not bound by the convention regarding AQ, not that AQ is bound. Trust me, I'm a lawyer. ;) Markalexander100 01:33, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Certainly they can't benefit from it- that's the Guantanamo point. But not benefiting from a treaty is not the same as being liable under it. AQ is not a party to the treaty. Therefore the treaty imposes no obligations on it. This is a basic principle of international law: a treaty between countries A and B can't impose duties on country C (or even group of homicidal fanatics C). September 11 was many things, but a war crime under Geneva 4 or Hague it was not. Markalexander100 05:34, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
We may be in sight of some sort of agreement! How about: "The September 11 attacks would have been war crimes if they had been carried out by a party to the Hague Convention and Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibit X Y and Z. However, because AQ is not a party to these conventions, criminal liability falls to be determined under US domestic law rather than international law". Markalexander100 06:12, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Right, I've put that wording in. The possible connections between AQ and various states (Saudi Arabia? Pakistan?) are very shadowy; I doubt there's much we can usefully say about it. As far as I know, the US government didn't even accuse Afghanistan of having an active part in the plot. Let's save that one for another day. Markalexander100 07:10, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have just removed the point about no declaration of war from the war crimes section and I thought I should justify this. The list is stated to be a partial, easily justifiable, non-complete list of war crimes that could be charged over 9/11. In keeping with this I thought it important to remove anything that could be easily argued against. The statments attributed to OBL in the articles from date prior to September 2001 clearly say that his organization is fighting against the US, this in effect a declaration of war. Yes I accept that it isn't a formal decrlaration of war, but Al Qadeir (spelling?) are not a true state actor and can't really enter into standard formal declarations. Anyway I thought it better not to include an arguable point in a partial list Steven jones 05:45, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is there any claim by al-quaeda that they attacked the towers? Any evidence or judgement that they did? It seems to me that this is an assumption that was not established as fact. am I wrong? Pedant 02:17, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Looking at recent edits, I think too much meaning is being placed on "Why 9/11"? Especially remember that, in most of the world, 9/11/2001 is 11.9.2001. I think that is true in Saudi Arabia, country of most of the hijackers, even assuming that would run to the common calendar rather than the Arabic one for arcane meaning.
As to the issue of rescue personnel, New York had plenty on hand--look how many were on the scene to die in such a short time after the first plane hit.
I remember the day well, living in New York. It was a clear day, perfect for minimally experienced pilots to navigate to and hit the towers. If the day had been overcast (especially since the tops of the towers were often shrouded in fog or clouds) they may have had to pick a different day. This is not my original theory, but it makes sense. Cecropia 23:50, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hi,
9/11 was a week after the end of congress' summer holiday. Therefore, most of the congressmen and US senators were in the Capitole. And the 4th plane was suposed to be crashed on that monument. I think that's an explanation given by the 9/11 comission.
Please justify removal of this paragraph:
Newer version:
This entire passage was put there by Plautus Satire (now banned for a year by the way) as part of some sort of implication that at least some of the Sep 11 hijackers were still alive and there was some kind of FBI conspiracy in which false names were knowingly sent out by the FBI - or something like that anyway. It is a bit hard to follow exactly what he was trying to say, but its reliability and neutrality must be held in doubt. Once again, we can do without that kind of POV thing in this article. Period.
Putting this aside, there is the question of relevancy. What we have listed here is a stage in FBI investigations that took place after the events of the day, in which it was established that some of the hijackers had suspect IDs. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not really relevant to an area that gives earlier revelations as to what organisation was behind the attacks. The newer version quoted above is certainly better, but the irrelevancy remains. Perhaps this should go to the Sep 11 timelines.
Actually, the whole "earlier revelations" bit does bother me, because it reads more like a subjective "it was America's fault!" essay than a NPOV account of evidence uncovered and statements issued as to who was behind the attacks. But my main problem is just that first paragraph.
BTW, I'm also puzzled about this section's title- the hijackers were victims?? How does that make sense? Arno 10:11, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm surprised at KingTurtle, an admin, removing the word "terrorist" from the description of the 9/11 attacks as POV. I don't even think the terrorists themselves think the attacks (at least the 3000 non-combtanat civilians killed in the WTC attack) weren't terror attacks. What were they then. If these attacks aren't terrorist we should simply delete the entry under terrorism in Wikipedia, and give it a REDIRECT to newspeak. Cecropia 00:28, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
APPENDIX
Further speculation and studies of September 11, 2001 attacks:
A few key contemporary/historical terms and concerns:
- U.S. Government support of Al-Quaeda in the Balkans - U.S., Brittish, and Saudi Oil companies and Bin Laden - Anti-Israeli/American Movements (such as Black September / Abu Nidal which date back decades) - March 11, 2004 Spanish Attack - Mysterious death of Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone following September 11. - Significance of the language barrier in U.S. anti-terrorist intelligence. - Credible experts in related fields:
John Wolfsthal Joseph Wilson John Hamre James Woolsey Anthony Cordesman Robert Baer Rachel Bronson
Speculative research: http://whitecloud.com/wag_the_dog.htm#Did bin Laden have help from U.S. friends
Is the symbolic meaning of 9/11 discussed anywhere in Wikipedia? Obviously, mass killing was not the only purpose of the perpetrators. What they attacked were symbols of America's economic (WTC) and military (Pentagon) dominance (they probably also wanted to hit the White House - symbol of America's political power).
--
Kpalion 15:45, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The article says "There were early plans to have 20 hijackers". I know of no evidence that this is the case. Can this be verified? Quadell 02:31, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
WhisperToMe: the U.S. Government no longer asserts that. [ News24.com] The FBI asserts that Moussaoui "played no part in the 9/11 scheme and was only a minor player in al-Qaeda."
In regards to the phrase "twentieth hijacker", what I mean is, I've heard it often asserted that there were to be a fifth hijacker on the fourth plane, bringing the total to twenty. But I've never heard any support for this claim besides the tenuous "Well, there were five on the others. . ." That seems a pretty weak rationale for the dramatic assertion that there is a would-be 9/11 hijacker that got away.
(This is wholly separate from the suggestion that other planes were to be hijacked. There are unconfirmed reports that other hijackings were prevented by flight delays or the flight ban. The UK even reported that hijackers were going to crash a plane into Big Ben, but were stopped, although no evidence of this was offered.)
Zacarias Moussaoui was in contact with the 9/11 hijackers, and considers himself a member of al-Qaeda, but there is no evidence (that I know of) that he was ever slated to be a 9/11 hijacker. The Justice Department no longer contends he was ever a "twentieth hijacker".
Ramzi Binalshibh may have also been a "twentieth hijacker", but again, I know of no evidence. It seems to me equally likely that al-Qaeda planned to have six hijackers per plane, and five were prevented -- or that al-Qaeda simply wanted to have at least four per plane, and divided their resources semi-equally. I don't think "twenty" is a magic number to anyone except the pundits. Speaking of "the role of the 20th hijacker" is just speculation.
I therefore suggest that the following paragraph:
. . .be replaced with:
Quadell 14:20, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Suggestion objected to. The revelations are as reported by Yosri Fouda , who has a lot of research on Al-Qaeda. I suggest that you read "Masterminds of Terror", by Yosri Fouda and Nick Fielding, or do some google searching (eg this page or this one).
The sources - what the terrorists said - also appear at the top of the passage , that you're disputing, as terrorist admissions. This change that you want means that you are in effect misquoting them. What the terrorists have stated to is first hand stuff. Arno 09:03, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be links to our Propaganda wikipedia entry? Consider the terms "misinformation", and "disinformation". These two terms came into full bloom during and following the 911 fiasco. Given that we will not know what happened for decades if ever, we should allow for dicussion of conflicting information.
Recently I suggested replacing one paragraph with another. A few days later, when no one had yet objected, I made the change. Afterwards, Arno objected and reverted it. The two paragraphs, before and after, are above.
As I see it, there are still inaccuracies in the paragraph as it now stands, and I think they ought to be fixed.
First of all, Arno directed me to the following fascinating article. It reveals that Binalshibh was selected to be a pilot, but that he couldn't get into the U.S. and had to be replaced. Only afterwards were the other hijackers selected. The article doesn't support the notion that "there were early plans to have 20 hijackers". I suspect the "20 highjackers" idea is an invention by the press. I don't know of any evidence that al-Qaeda considered 20 to be better than 19 or 21. So I'd recommend references to "the role of 20th hijacker" be removed.
Second, the paragraph as it now stands baldly states "Zacarias Moussaoui was considered for the role of the 20th hijacker, but plans to include him were never finalized, as the al-Qaeda hierarchy had doubts about his reliability." That doesn't seem to be the case. I know of no evidence that Moussaoui was involved in any way with 9/11. The FBI no longer asserts Moussaoui was involved in the 9/11 attacks. Why is it stated as a fact?
I'd recommend replacing the paragraph with something factual we can agree on. And I'd recommend that no one unilaterally revert it afterwards.
Here's my suggestion:
What does everyone think? Can this be improved?
Quadell 16:55, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I say that this paragraph is wrong, period, and it's best improved by getting rid of it.
What was said originally was based on al-Jazeera interviews and what was released by US authorities.
As regards Moussaoui, the terrorists stated that he was considered as the 20th hijacker and even trained for it. He was linked to the terrorist cells that carried out the Sep 11 attacks. But he was never made part of the plot because he was considered unsuitable( too clumsy, apparently). See Chapter 9 of the book I mentioned above, or try this recent article for an account dated April 15, as opposed to the News24 article which is dated October last year. Also, try this April 14 article as a second source about the FBI and Moussaoui. They tie Moussaoui in with the Sep 11 plot, albeit dormantly. Also, try this msnbcand this jihad watch article. One hypothesis was that he was going to be part of a series of followup attacks.
At no point did I say that there were 21 hijackers. Ramzi was considered for the 20th. When this fell through, Moussaoui was considered but never included. Period.
The article also says that Khalid originally wanted to use ten planes (five each) on the US east and west coasts, but that this got cancelled very early on. The Washington Post article supports this. So do this Australian article and this one.
All this is also supported in an interrogation report that admittedly I have not seen.
Sources enough, I think, to justify my move that this whole attempt at rewording this paragraph on the grounds given was ill-advised.
On another note, you lodged your proposal during Easter , when I was away on wikivacation. I suspect that others were, too. Hence the delay in responding to the incorrect statements. Arno 08:25, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The main problem with the paragraph as it stands, is that it doesn't attribute its info. It sounds like the writer of the paragraph was a terrorist and knew exactly what happened. Why not add something like "According to law enforcement officials, Khalid said that..." Mdchachi 13:04, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have begun to feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall.
That entire "Recent Statements and Revelations" passage reports "the things that were said to be revealed in [the] interrogations of Khalid and Moussaoui " and from "an exclusive interview with al Jazeera journalist Yosro Fauda in September 2002", to quote from that passage. That was the whole point of that entire passage - to say what these revelations were, rather than to list as Gospel fact. They may not be true, maybe there are inded things missing in what but that is not what the passage says!! If you have followup revelations, or proof that disproves these statements, then I am sure that you will let me know what they are and their sources.
You seem constantly intent on changing what was said on those occasions, all based on one newstory, one source that has since been superseded. Where does your allegation of "speculation" come into it? Are you trying to say that these things were not said in the al-Jazeera interview or during the interrogation of Khalid and Ramzi???
I am also at a loss as to your logic on one matter. You agree that Ramzi Binalshibh was supposed to be the 20th hijacker.
The paragraph you are so intent on changing says that the final list consisted of 19 hijackers. Yet you keep saying that this is wrong and that there was no intention to have 20 hijackers!
You have, I presume, now changed your mind about Moussaoui's links to the Sep 11 terrorists.
However, I see no practical difference between "Binalshibh said Moussaoui was briefly considered as an understudy." and "Zacarias Moussaoui was considered for the role of the 20th hijacker". The idea of his getting involved in followup attacks was news to me - you have at least enlightened me to that - but my sentence allows more leeway.
Have a quickpoll? Well, that would be a last resort for me. In view of what I've written above, how necessary is it?
Arno 09:23, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to list what crimes these would have been had the parties committing them been states? They are clearly not states, and I don't think other articles about crimes have equivalent passages saying what kind of war crimes they would have been if the culprets had been parties to the Geneva Conventions? Appreciating the seriousness of the attack, but it does seem pretty irrelevant. Am I way off base here? Mark Richards 21:11, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList488/256CFA98B1DCE442C1256CF6002D63F0
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList488/3C2914F52152E565C1256E60005C84C0
Maurreen 07:42, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following: " In addition, Larry Silvertstein, who held a seven-week-old lease on One and Two World Trade Center, claimed in an interview that he, jointly with the New York Fire Department, made the decision to deliberately demolish Seven World Trade Center, also known as the Solomon Building, which he also owned, and which was then the headquarters of the crisis and disaster command center for the mayor of New York City."
While the popular suject of alternate theories concerning 9-11, this is not an accepted fact. For one, the FEMA report contradicts it. At the very least it cannot go in the article at the top as a fact. Perhaps later in a deeper discussion of both sides. Rmhermen 04:16, May 26, 2004 (UTC)
"In a stunning and belated development concerning the attacks of 9/11 Larry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated plainly in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish the Solomon Bros. building, or WTC 7, late in the afternoon of Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001."www.prisonplanet.com/011704wtc7.html]
"This admission appeared in a PBS documentary originally aired in Sept. of 2002 entitled "America Rebuilds". Mr Silverstein's comments came after FEMA and the Society of Civil Engineers conducted an extensive and costly investigation into the curious collapse of WTC 7. The study specifically concluded that the building had collapsed as a result of the inferno within, sparked, apparently, by debris falling from the crumbling North Tower." [8]
"Larry Silverstein, the leaseholder of the World Trade Center complex, stood to gain $500 million, and the federal government gave the order to destroy WTC7 late in the afternoon of September 11, 2001 (InfoWars article). Silverstein's revelation is on the PBS documentary 'America Rebuilds' (MP3 audio file) and a cleanup program for building 6 (MP3 audio file)." [9]www.prisonplanet.com/pullit.mp3]www.prisonplanet.com/pullit2.mp3]
"Check out this RealVideo clip from the PBS documentary, "America Rebuilds." In it, Larry Silverstein, the leaseholder on the World Trade Center complex in Manahattan, admits that WTC 7 was "pulled," that is, intentionally demolished:" [10]("UPDATE: Higher-res mpg on another server" [11])
"You can hear Silverstein say this by downloading VestigialConscience.com/PullIt.mp3 - HERE *." [12]
"In addition, we received communications from Mr. Jeremy Baker expressing concern that WTC 7 was in fact purposely demolished by its owner Larry Silverstein at 5:20 p.m. on 911. As evidence, Mr. Baker provides a PBS documentary that was aired on September 2002 titled "America Rebuilds". In the documentary Larry Silverstein is heard saying, "I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."" [13]
"Mr. Silverstein's comments stand in direct contradiction to the findings of the extensive FEMA report. They even negate Kevin Spacey's narrative in the very documentary in which they appear; "WTC7 fell after burning for 7 hours." If it had been generally known that the building was "pulled" wouldn't Mr. Spacey have phrased it that way?" [14]
I'm curious. What makes you say that it's not an established fact? FEMA disagrees? Larry Silverstein said he demolished his own building. If FEMA disagrees perhaps they can explain why Larry Silverstein lied as well. Is Larry Silverstein a liar? Is that your contention? That the FEMA investigation overrules Larry Silverstein's recollections from that day? Energybone 05:49, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
"It is now known that this fire was fuelled by 28,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored underneath the building. Ironically, this fuel was intended to power the emergency generators for Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani's command center, the Secret Service's office and other tenants." [15]
"The dispute focused on the Seven World Trade Center site investigation, where above-ground diesel tanks were considered a possible source of the raging fire that destroyed the building. The tanks were installed four years ago, over the city Fire Department's objections, to provide emergency power to former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's doomed emergency command center on the 23rd floor." [16]
"The 23rd floor of Building 7 had received 15 million dollars worth of renovations to create an emergency command center for Mayor Rudolf Giuliani. The features of the command center include [17]:
"These renovations were applied only to the 23rd floor." [18] [19]
Are you still unwilling to accept the facts? Energybone 05:58, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
I think the best thing is to say who says who. That way, we can decide who is telling the truth for ourselves. :) WhisperToMe 05:59, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
"The deal was finalized and celebrated on the 23rd July -just seven weeks before almost the entire complex was destroyed. Port Authority officers gave a giant set of keys to the complex to Silverstein and to Westfield CEO Lowy." [20]
"Larry Silverstein purchased a $3.2 billion, 99-year lease of the World Trade Center in July 2001, along with the above mentioned partner Westfield America for the shopping parts. Silverstein took control of the 10-million-square-foot trophy office complex just seven weeks before it was destroyed by terrorist attacks." [21]
"Silverstein, who took control of the 10-million-square-foot trophy office complex just seven weeks before it was destroyed by a terrorist attack, said a memorial at the site to the victims of the attack "is necessary and totally appropriate.”" [22]
"The conditional settlement ends a two-year dispute between the companies and allows site reconstruction to proceed without lengthy delays. GMAC lent $563 million to the part-owner of the World Trade Center seven weeks before the terrorist attacks destroyed New York's twin towers." [23]
"Late last year, General Motors Corp.'s giant lending arm, GMAC settled a lawsuit it filed against Silverstein and the site's owner, seeking repayment of the $563 million it lent to the World Trade Center's owners just seven weeks before the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks." [24]
There certainly seems to be a broad and deep coalition of people who concertedly perpetrate this hoax, because these "unaccepted facts" have been reported again, and again, and now yet again here, again and again and again. How much proof is required to get facts into an entry? At what point do they cease being facts and become UNDENIABLE FACTS? Energybone 06:10, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
If a FEMA report conflicts, and that's a United States governmental agency we are talking about here, we HAVE to do a X said this, Y said this scenario. WhisperToMe 06:47, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
I have no problem with citing the FEMA report that conflicts with Larry Silverstein's own statements, particularly his admission that he had the building demolished. Since he is the one who ordered the demolition, I think it's safe to say he's a more reliable source than the FEMA-come-latelies who were trying to put the pieces back together after Larry Silverstein orders those pieces taken apart. It's probably still in there somewhere, that entry is enormous and needs a good housecleaning. There's no reason for it to be that huge. Energybone 06:58, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Okay you need to back up and check your facts. The documentary appeared on PBS, and Larry Silverstein (NOT SILVERSTONE AS YOU ERRONEOUSLY STATE) plainly stated that he had the building demolished. If you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion then you need to take some remedial English lessons. Energybone 18:44, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
No, I would rather link to the PBS documentary itself. WhisperToMe 18:51, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Tillwe, why do you and Rheanurmanurmnherm keep taking out these facts and replacing them with the erroneous statement that the intentional demolition of Seven World Trade Center is a THEORY? It's clearly NOT a theory, it's an easily verifiable fact, and a fact Silverstein (NOT SILVERSTONE) admits publically, as if he's some sort of hero for demolishing the building. Energybone 18:53, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Because if the FEMA report is contradictory to Silverstein's claims, then the claims should be called a "claim". They can be mentioned, yes, but only as what Silverstein says. WhisperToMe 21:01, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
No web links maintained by PBS do, but this video may: http://shop.pbs.org/products/AREB901/ - It is temporairly out of stock. WhisperToMe 21:09, 26 May 2004 (UTC)