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If American society at large payed their tributes by erecting memorials that showed their sympathy with the victims, the community of creative artists showed differing sensibilities. Although in recent decades art has been politicized, with sociopolitical problems inspiring much artistic activity, the art community was distinctly chary in responding to the September 11 terrorist attacks. According to Commentary, only one significant monumental artistic response to 9/11 was made: Eric Fischl's bronze sculpture Tumbling Woman, which was installed in Rockefeller Center one year later. The figure, however, was stripped of any sense of poignancy or dignity, "showing her landing ridiculously on her head, with all the bathos of an unsightly spill in the tub." The statue gave offense, and it was removed promptly. Most other art that followed 9/11 "suffered from the same moral incoherence". Commentary identifies the reigning political bias among artists as the explanation. It suspects that the lack of noteworthy attempts to humanize the victims may be due to "fear that it might dehumanize their killers".[243]
I don't feel this paragraph fits in with the otherwise high quality of the article. This sounds like the beginnings of a political rant as opposed to reporting verifiable facts.
99.20.251.63 ( talk) 05:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
The FAQ template is ideological and POV.
Hence I'm removing that horrible template.
-- Sugaar ( talk) 15:43, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Comment not related to the purpose of this page, which is to improve the article on the
September 11 attacks.
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Over the last two days over 500,000 intercepts of what are purported to be pager messages from 9/11 were published by Wikilinks [1]. Most reliable sources seem to think they are real but no definitive proof exists. As of this point there have been no earth shattering revelations. I think this should be considered for the External links section. It is a classic external link in that it adds detail to material in the article. There is a reliability question Edkollin ( talk) 08:34, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be stated that the attack was allegedly carried out by Al Qaeda? Nobody has been found guilty in court yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RussellEngland ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
What are reliable sources? On the morning of Aug. 31, 1939, what were "reliable sources" reporting about the Gleiwitz incident? I did not check but I suspect that "reliable sources" all over Germany reported that Polish soldiers had attacked a radio station on German soil. What credence can be given to the mainstream media in a propaganda war? Especially when the entire media apparatus is owned and controlled by a small clique who have a common interest in presenting a single POV? It would be interesting to find out how that Gleiwitz story was first presented in different parts of the globe and how it has evolved since.
The comparison with 9/11 is a valid one in as much as a growing number of people do now believe that both were false flag operations.
It was probably OK for Wikipedia to assert many years ago that Al-Quaida was solely responsible for 9/11. Even I believed it at one point. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since. Unfortunately the MSM has not followed suite. Why? Because the MSM are owned and controlled by entities that have a vested interest in suppressing the truth. How can I source that? Not in any MSM publication I'm afraid...
There is a nice quote from Gandhi that comes to mind: « First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. »
I believe that the laugh period is almost completely behind us now, in spite of vain attempts by staunch supporters of the Official Version to link truthers to "Elvis is still alive" proponents. We are now somewhere between fighting and winning, I would assume. Just like when Nelson Mandela stopped being primarily characterized as a terrorist. It would be interesting to research at what point in time major news organizations shifted from the terrorist label to a more neutral stance. Same thing for Galileo Galilei; at what point in time did it become politically correct to let it be known that some people questioned the notion that the earth was at the centre of the universe. When did it become OK to say that it was "alleged" that the sun, instead of the earth, was at the center?
Even though they risk ruining their carrers, some people have dared to speak out. Charlie Sheen, for example, has published a series of questions he wishes Obama to respond to. I know. I know. He's an actor. So what? His questions deserve answers none the less. No point in sourcing those questions here. I'm pretty sure that anyone who lands on this page is aware of what I am referring to. The important thing to keep in mind is that Charlie Sheen merely asks questions. He does not pretend to know what happened on 9/11. But he expresses his scepticism, which I share and which would reflect itself by inserting the word "allegedly" everywhere it belongs until such time as it can be removed to make way to a new certainty of who actually was responsible, if such a day does occur.
Other people who's opinion should matter do have impressive credentials. I'm referring here to people like Albert Stubblebine who was the commanding general of the United States Army Intelligence and Security Command from 1981 to 1984 and Francesco Cossiga who was Prime Minister of Italy (1979-1980), President of the Senate (1983-1985), President of the Republic (1985-1992) and Senator for life since 1992. These prominent people are very old and retired, of course. Otherwise, would they foolishly have put their neck out by expressing their views with the risk of compromising their career?
I read somewhere that Wikipedia is based on consensus. OK, how do we check what the consensus is? Do we take a vote or something? Oclupak ( talk) 15:24, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Major General Albert Stubblebine
I edited General Stubblebine's wikipedia page to provide a link to the video source where he states that "a Boeing 757 airplane could not have crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001". In that video, he goes on to say: "We pride ourselves with a free press. I do not believe the free press is free anymore. It's very expensive. It's very expensive. And the press is saying what they have been told to say about this. Now, do I have proof of that? No. But I believe that what is being... what... certainly the stories that we're told about all about 9/11 were false. I mean you take a look at the buildings falling down. They didn't fall down because airplanes hit'em, they fell down because of explosives went off [inaudible] demolition. Look at building Seven, for God's sake."
The link to the video is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daNr_TrBw6E. I ask you now, isn't he a credible source? He was, after all, responsible for all of the Army's strategic intelligence forces around the world, at one point in his career. Shouldn't his one and only testimony be sufficient to attenuate at least a little bit the assertion that 19 islamist hijackers did it?
About the comment concerning goatstaring, I do admit that it seems, at first glance, to be a frivolous proposition. But so would have been, before the Manhattan Project, the mere notion that the splitting of a particle so small that it is invisible to the human eye could lead to an explosion of unprecedented force, capable of destroying an entire city. I haven't seen the Coen brothers' film based on the book The Men Who Stare at Goats yet, but perhaps there is some serious science behind the research General Stubblebine was involved in and which was funded by the U.S. military. I note however that this element seems to have been brought in this discussion for the sole purpose of discrediting the testimony of a legitimate source. Isn't attacking the messenger a crime on Wikipedia?
Francesco Cossiga
I edited my previous post to add a link to Francesco Cossiga's wikipedia page. On it, there is a quote from an interview he gave to the newspaper Corriere della Sera, which is, if I am not mistaken, a very reputable italian newspaper. The interview is dated Nov. 30, 2007. In the English translation provided on the Wikipedia page, he is reported as having said: "[...] all of the democratic circles of America and of Europe, in the front lines being those of the Italian centre-left, now know well that the disastrous attack was planned and realized by the American CIA and Mossad with the help of the Zionist world to put under accusation the Arabic Countries and to persuade the Western powers to intervene in Iraq and Afghanistan."
As I mentioned earlier, this man was Prime Minister of Italy (1979-1980), President of the Senate (1983-1985), President of the Republic (1985-1992). Isn't that credentials enough? Has Corriere della Sera suddenly fallen into disrepute?
How many more "credible people" quoted in "reliable sources" must I come up with to alter the opening statement of the page which, in my opinion, misleads people into believing that the official theory is the only one out there? If I came up with a thousand, would it help you to budge? Oclupak ( talk) 19:21, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
This article is extremely POV, including virtually only the official version of events as portrayed by the Bush administration.
It needs clear rebalancing in order to be NPOV.
I'd suggest to:
1. Make the official version shorter (it's extremely long and does not deal with the many doubts that exist in most of each "evidence" items) and detach the rest of contents to a different article.
2. Give some more room to the main alternative theory, which is that 9/11 was an insider job by the security services (references: one, [two http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=theme&themeId=18]- there must be many others).
As the article is it breches totally the NPOV policy and is a horrible symptom of the decay of Wikipedia into the hands of agendas.
-- Sugaar ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
All,
I just wanted to point out that there is a discrepancy in the total number of causalities from the top figure (second paragraph) "In total 2,993 people, including the hijackers, died..." and then under Casualties-- "There were a total of 2,995..."-- there is a discrepancy of 2 casualties (this is not accounted for by the inclusion or exclusion of hijackers...), but I couldn't hunt the reason for the actual discrepancy down from what I read. Thanks, 69.4.36.98 ( talk) 17:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Dear all,
Yesterday I proposed changes to this article in light of research undertaken for the delivery of a university course that I teach. The edits were reversed and it was suggested I posted my reasoning for the changes to the discussion page. I have no affiliation to any 9/11 truth organisation, have been to no meeting in support or against 9/11. I have corresponded with only two people active in posting on the subject (one against conspiracy theories, one in favour of them). My proposed contribution to the article is the result of independent research after reading many reports and articles, and reviewing six documentaries produced in both the US and UK. You can check my credentials at http://www.shu.ac.uk/sbs/research/organisational-development/sp_rory_ridley_duff.html and Marquis's Who's Who in the World 2009.
Below is text (approximate) I added to the talkpage of editors who reversed my changes, or supported the reversal.
"Thank you for your comment on my contribution to the September 11 Attacks article. I'm a senior lecturer at a university in the UK. I include a lecture on 9/11 as part of a philosophy course I give to doctoral students (i.e. those studying for a PhD) to illustrate the contested and constructed nature of knowledge and truth. I am well aware of the key issues raised by 9/11, and the contested nature of 'truth' on this subject.
The current Wikipedia article does not provide balanced coverage of key claims about 9/11. It is the lack of awareness about the contested nature of events on September 11 that makes the current article weak. It falls outside Wikipedia's own guidelines for neutrality and censors views that have been accepted into parts of the academic community, and networks of people who have conducted extensive research into 9/11 issues. One of my concerns is that 'facts' are accepted on the basis of news reports, while other contributions based on peer-reviewed journal articles (albeit not of the highest quality), and good quality documentaries from the BBC and independent documentary makers, are rejected.........
One criticism of my contribution is that the views expressed in the article are already 'mainstream', and that the proposed additions would be controversial. I refute both these claims as detailed below. By 2006, at least 1/3 of the US population believed the US government played a conscious role in the 9/11 attacks (see http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/12137). Worldwide, there are countries in which almost one-third of the population believe that either Israel or the US government were as likely, or more likely, than Al Quaida to have perpetrated the attacks ( http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-35417520080910). For Wikipedia to be 'balanced', it must include these views in any article on the September 11th attacks and acknowledge international views and research into this matter.
The proposed changes, therefore, counter obvious bias in the September 11th Attack article and ensure that the opinions of large numbers or people, including many credible engineers, physicists, academics, politicians and eye-witnesses, are represented. The proposed changes did not remove any existing material to ensure that the views already expressed remain (there was no attempt to censor others points of view, only an attempt to provide the necessary balance to the article overall). The counter perspectives are well-documented and supported by evidence (including two court cases). Other claims are based on active debates amongst academics. These debates are likely to be closer to the 'truth' that bulletins from news channels and should be included in the article.
There is no 'bias' or 'controversy' in reporting that there are ongoing court cases, mass movements and academic debates that question the version of truth presented in the current article. These are matters of fact, not opinion, and it distorts understanding of the subject to omit these facts from the article. It gives the impression that the statements in the article are uncontested. This is clearly untrue so the omission breaches Wikipedia guidelines to write from a neutral point of view (NPOV). I added no judgement as to which version of the truth is more 'true' - the edits simply balanced the debate."
To the above, I would like to add the follow. In the university sector we discuss the use of Wikipedia by students often. The main weakness of Wikipedia (as viewed by universities) is that its editors are insufficiently schooled in both philosophy and research skills. As a consequence, many struggle to differentiate between issues of editing and censorship. The result is many Wikipedia articles are based on popular prejudices (or popular opinion) rather than evidence-based research. For this reason, many lecturers ban the use of Wikipedia. I'm not one of these lecturers - I make relevant contributions on matters that I have researched or regular give lectures at post-graduate level. I encourage students to use Wikipedia, but also to check out the quality of the sources on which the articles are based. I support the Wikipedia project but do worry about the level of censorship when matters move outside 'popular prejudice' and enter the realm of academic debate.
Providing contributions are backed by credible evidence, editors should always seek to include them and provide guidance to ensure the overall article is balanced. An awareness of 'credible' show encompass knowledge created using varied scientific traditions. This means checking out the sources behind contributions before removing them (too often they are removed instantly without checking the credibility of the sources). It also means that editors need to ensure that debates and controversies are managed not excluded.
At present, this article is heavily biased towards one politicised view rooted in a narrow section of US/UK opinion. At present, this brings Wikipedia itself into international disrepute. The claims made in the article are not backed by a standard of evidence that would warrant their inclusion as 'fact'. For this reason, the article should reflect the alleged nature of matters where they have not been conclusively proved one way or the other (or where there is no consensus). Key issues of academic debate and contested issues in the legal domain are not currently addressed.
Overall, it is my view the article must be amended to stay within Wikipedia's own editing guidelines.
I will leave it one day before restoring the contributions suggested to the article and sincerely hope that editors will ensure the changes remain.
Best wishes
User:Roryridleyduff Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 20:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
You are not checking the source I've given. Other polls put the numbers thinking people are not telling the whole truth at 80%. In the quoted article, those believing the US government was in some way complicit was 36% (the question is clear - read the report). I am, therefore, not 'ranting' as you put it - I'm trying to provide properly sources and balanced reports of this matter.
The court cases, incidentally, are ongoing - I checked with a source directly involved in reporting the cases before posting this information.
Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 21:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 21:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
At the time of the above posting I had read one article rejected by the 9/11 journal and one accepted. The accepted article seemed solid, the other did not. Following your comments, I have read other articles published there. While I appreciate that the standard of peer-review (and academic theorisation) is less than I would expect in academic journals to which I've contributed, it still appears to be better than journalistic sources that are not subject to any peer-review.
I do not know the current state of the legal case by Dr Morgan Reynolds other than that the initial case was dismissed. As for the legal case by Dr Judy Wood, I checked with the person who issues her press releases in the UK (who works in the Open Univeristy) whether the case would go forward. The response was that an appeal is being considered now. The legal ruling (available at www.drjudywood.com) gives Judy Wood permission to resubmit the case after revisions that would ensure it complies with Fraud Act. The ground for dismissing the case (officially, at least) are that the claim is not set out in the way the Fraud Act requires - the cases have not yet even got to the point of considering any evidence. While the court expressed a lack of sympathy regarding resubmission, it made clear that a decision on resubmission would be for the District Court. The case, therefore, remains open for the time being.
"As such it is contrary to Wikipedia policy to give conspiracy theories anything other than minimal coverage in this article."
The official Wikipedia NPOV policy requires that 'significant minority point of view' are included in articles. The edits ensure that these 'significant minority' views are added to the article.
On this point, you are making a basic epistemological error. The 'official story' is itself a conspiracy theory (it is a theory - unverified - that a group of people conspired to hijack planes and fly them into the World Trade Center and Pentagon). Even the most basic evidence is contradictory (such as the alleged hijackers names not being on flight manifest, and the fires burned for over a month at temperatures that could not possible be due to jet fuel). It is not 'neutral' to suppress contradictions that are available through published thermal scans of the area, eye-witnesses, scientific reports (including government reports).
You are making basic epistemological errors by assuming that 'official' (i.e. government) sources are reliable while academic and professional sources are not. In all 'proper' research, it is necessary to remain sceptical of official (managerial) sources: they are not considered reliable much of the time because of the effects of power within organisational cultures and political systems. A reliable source is one that make evidence-based claims after using a reliable methodology for its investigative process. It can also be based on the application of logic or established theory to known 'facts' using a 'correspondence' theory of truth. Much of the controversy derives from a failure of known facts to correspond with known scientific theory. To be balanced, the article must acknowledge the scale of scientific evidence that the official story is contradictory (not 'false' but contradictory - does not accord to known scientific theory and available evidence).
On the issue of evidencing the scale of the 'significant minority' point of view, see http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/13469. By 2006, it was reported in the New York Times (following a major poll on many issues that I obtained in full) that 81% of the US public question the official story on some level (either withholding or lying). 28% of people (almost 1/3 of the population) believing the government is proactively lying. Only 16% now believe the government is telling the truth.
The Wikipedia guideline require that the views of these significant minorities are included in the article. By omitting them, you are contravening the Wikipedia guidelines. It remains my view - as a neutral academic who is not involved in the 9/11 Truth movement, that the article must be revised to remain within the NPOV guidelines.
The problems in the current article is ones of epistemology (standards and criteria of truth and knowledge), and breach of the Wikipedia guidelines.
Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 15:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
--- Rebuttal of false information given above ---
Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 10:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Indeed, public opinion is only a measure of what is a majority or minority opinion - this is an issue in Wikipedia guidelines if we can to include 'substantial minority' points of view. If we turn to academic opinion, then the presence and size of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth network must be taken into account alongside the size and scale of the Engineers for 9/11 Truth network. I'm not aware of any academic network in support of the 'official' story, but I would be delighted to learn of one because I've search for one to provide balancing opinions on my courses. There are occasional academic articles refered to in various documentaries. What I do consistently detect, however, is an unstated coalition of government and media interests (within NIST, FEMA, the court system, Fox News, New Corporation sources) who are struggling to maintain control over the 'truth' of events surrounding September 11. People allied to these interests are in a constant battle with academics and professional groups who question their right to control determination of 'truth' regarding these events. This 'battle' (if that is the right word) extent to every sphere, including Wikipedia. As an academic, I naturally want to eliminate censorship of views so they can be debated properly in a sober and systematic way. Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 20:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roryridleyduff ( talk • contribs)
Tarage, you're just being rude. Why? Why such a vitriolic response? Why such an aggressive tone? For tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar....me thinks the editor's strong words betray his academic abilities and perhaps rouse his emotive opinions on the matter. Time will tell Tarage, as your editing shows a lack of acceptable balance. Do you really think that when buildings fall don by their own accord, and architects, mathematicians and other academics keep signing up for the 'truthers' side, that you continue to portray a balance. There must be some new usage of the word balance that im not aware of. Your stubborn rebuttals will only fuel the belief there is something to hide....I wish you luck in stopping the tide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.99.96.180 ( talk) 08:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the main article should be edited to include the following information: John Farmer, Dean of Rutger Universities' School of Law and former Attorney General of New Jersey, was the Senior Counsel for the 911 Commission, and was responsible for drafting the original 9/11 Commission report. In John Farmer’s book: “The Ground Truth: The Story Behind America’s Defense on 9/11″, Farmer states, “at some level of the government, at some point in time…there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened... I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The [Norad air defense] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. This is not spin.” Rickoff ( talk) 07:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Tuesday, Or What about the "On this day..." weekday topic of 9/11 Please call it Tuesday September 11, 2001. A newbie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.148.250 ( talk) 01:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
US Mainstream media is to close to the major political parties. Their is too much completion and therefore there are no budgets for Watergate style investigative reporting. Reporters are forced to rely mainly Republican and Democratic sourcing. Republicans do not want a possible conspiracy exposed for obvious reasons. Democrats do not want it for two reasons. Despite being liberal at heart they have been a scared and uber cautious party for many years. Therefore they will not do anything remotely risky. There are too many reasons for this to list here but a good start is that they think the country is to the right of them and the 24//7 attack dog political atmosphere. The other reason is their common belief that Bush and the Republicans are to stupid to even speak correctly never mind pull off a conspiracy. As for the media as numerous studies have shown that reporters are a largely liberal group so they share the "to stupid" belief. Their coverage of the 9/11 truth movement reflects this. You see a look of people who have been called to go to work just before their participation in an orgy. When the relevant issues are discussed in many cases it has the look of a quick read just before airtime. But most efforts are put into truthers mental state.
Since Wikipedia is about verifiability not truth of course this article will reflect the "official theory" consensus. The reliable source policy remains a good but flawed policy in bringing out the truth. While MSM standards have declined markedly it is still a hell of a lot more reliable on the whole then webpages. There are some great webpages but how does one figure it out without OR?. So wikipedia policy stays with a the sinking ship known as MSM. From the sarcasm that occasionally creeps in these talk pages it becomes clear that the majority of editors especially long time committed ones do not believe in the theories they write about. Not sure why. Maybe most committed Wikipedia editors do come from the academic world where things like citing reliable/expert sources is their life's work. In any case newbie "truther" editors do not stand a chance winning talk page discussions against veterans who know the policies.
America is a forward looking country, 8 years have passed Bush is not president etc. There is conspiracy theory fatigue which has caused almost daily lumping together of all "loony" conspiracy theories and theorists. There is always the "first impression" rule. Three or four years ago conspiracy theorists were limited to individuals on their webpages and professors whom not only knew nothing about physics but came from very unscientific disciplines such as philosophy. While reliable sources still by far agree with the the official theory, this has changed noticeably. How much this has changed is very arguable but the near unanimous reliable sourcing claims made here just are incorrect but they are also the consensus here.
For at least four years there have been attempts to change basic direction of the article to a more "truther" point of view and for four years they have failed. The basic points raised by both sides have not changed. We need to invoke the WP:SNOWBALL clause and just put our efforts into improving the article. 69.114.104.152 ( talk) 22:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
The Canadian CBC aired a documentary last week as part of their program The Fifth Estate. The episode is called "The Unofficial story". It mentions both the Official and the Unofficial versions in an unusually fair and balanced light —if anything, it has a definite favorable bias towards the Official story as evidenced by the smirky smile when host Bob McKeown mentions the conspiracy theorists.
All the same it is one of the rare occasions when both sides of the story are presented with a certain degree of professionalism and it constitutes one of the best documentaries to have aired on mainstream TV on the subject of 9/11. Would it be OK to post a reference to the Fifth Estate's website which is at:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/discussion/2009/11/the_unofficial_story.html
It is possible to view the entire documntary online, but apparently for Canadian viewers only. American and all other foreign viewers are blocked from the streaming video, I am told. But it is available on YouTube.
Unfortunately, it is cut up in 5 ten-minute segments:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkYlbpS-vVI
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4xhrJyKGQ8
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=femgO-ZYDm0
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjxrGUujXVc
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XcaORNbh4A
The link to the Fifth Estate website, which also contains other elements besides the video documentary, could be added to the Exterior links section at the bottom of the page. Oclupak ( talk) 20:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
What is the discussion page for if not to discuss the September 11 attacks? That CBC documentary deals specifically with a single subject: The 9/11 attacks. It does not lean one way or the other. Well OK, it is a bit biased in favour of the Official story. But basically, this documentary belongs here more than anywhere else it seems to me. I am baffled by the kind of logic that seems to prevail here. Oclupak ( talk) 23:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
That proposal was made by me for the 9/11 Conspiracies Theories Article and was dragged here by another editor without my knowledge. It was never intended for this article. There is no need for this proposal in this article. This article has been written based on the strong editor consensus that the article should reflect the "mainstream account" for years. Edkollin ( talk) 16:15, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
I am baffled by the editors' attitude all through the discussion section. Not only do you remain clearly oblivious to any but your own account of the facts, but the general tone is bullish and alarmingly disrespectful. I would suggest any reading of this article to remain seriously skeptical about the contents being presented, since only one side of an on-going and important debate has weight in the events being described. The editors should bear in mind that they never bother to answer issues being raised with arguments, just dismiss them in a fully self-satisfied way: to any neutral reader, these editors come across as hooligans, sorry to say. You can erase my comment as I am sure you will, but that does not make you any better wikipedians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Junkyardmusic ( talk • contribs) 22:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a considerable section on Osama's videos since 911 - but no apparent mention that huge numbers of people believe him dead - most likely in Dec 2001, 3 or 3.5 months after 911. This would totally invalidate the section on videos, and needs adding. Something like this, or at least a cut down version of it:
Vague reports of the death of bin Laden started circulating in Dec 2001 eg the Pakistan Observer quoted an unnamed Taliban official claiming that he had died of natural causes and was buried in an unmarked grave in Tora Bora on December 15.
[1]
[2] The Egyptian newspaper
AlWafd - Daily reported a prominent official of the Afghan Taliban stated that Bin Laden had been buried on or about December 13:
[3] A videotape was released on December 27 showing a gaunt, unwell Bin Laden, prompting an unnamed White House aide to comment that it could have been made shortly before his death.
[1] On CNN, Dr Sanjay Gupta commented that Bin Laden's left arm never moved during the video, suggesting a recent stroke and possibly a symptom of kidney failure.
[4] According to Pakistani President Musharraf, Bin Laden required two dialysis machines, which also suggests kidney failure.
[5] "I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a... kidney patient," Musharraf said.
[5] If Bin Laden suffered kidney failure, he would require a sterile environment, electricity, and continuous attention by a team of specialists, Gupta said.
[4] FBI Counterterrorism chief Dale Watson and President Karzai of Afghanistan also expressed the opinion that Bin Laden probably died at this time.
[6]
[7] In late 2005 the CIA disbanded "Alec Station", the unit dedicated to Bin Laden.
[8]
On 23 September 2006, the French newspaper
L'Est Républicain quoted a report from the French secret service (
Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure, DGSE) stating that Osama bin Laden had died in Pakistan on 23 August 2006, after contracting a case of
typhoid fever that paralyzed his lower limbs.
[9] According to the newspaper, Saudi security services first heard of bin Laden's alleged death on 4 September 2006.
[10]
[11]
[12] though
French President
Jacques Chirac declared that bin Laden's death had not been confirmed.
[13]
American authorities also cannot confirm reports of bin Laden's death,
[14] In an essay published in
The American Spectator in March 2009,
international relations professor Angelo Codevilla of
Boston University argued that Osama bin Laden had been dead for many years.
[15] In April 2009 Pakistan's intelligence agencies were said to believe Osama bin Laden may be dead.
[16] and on the 8th anniversary of 911 the UK's
Daily Mail said that the theory that Bin Laden died in 2001 "is gaining credence among political commentators, respected academics and even terror experts" and notes that the mounting evidence that supports the claim makes the theory "worthy of examination".
[3]
1.^ a b David Ray Griffin, Osama Bin Laden: Dead or Alive?, pp. 3–5.
2.^ "Report: Bin Laden Already Dead", Fox, 2001-12-26.
3.^ a b Reid, Sue (September 11, 2009). "Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years - and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror?". Daily Mail. Retrieved October 25, 2009.
4.^ a b "Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Bin Laden would need help if on dialysis", CNN, 2002-01-21.
5.^ a b "Musharraf: bin Laden likely dead", CNN, 2002-01-19.
6.^ "Bin Laden 'probably' dead", BBC, 2002-07-18.
7.^ "Karzai: bin Laden 'probably' dead", CNN, 2002-10-07.
8.^ "C.I.A. Closes Unit Focused on Capture of bin Laden.". New York Times. 2006-07-04. Retrieved 2007-08-21. "The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said."
9.^ "Officials, friends can't confirm Bin Laden death report". CNN. 2006-09-23. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
10.^ "23T075358Z_01_L23801953_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SECURITY-BINLADEN-FRANCE.xml French paper says bin Laden died in Pakistan". Reuters. 2006-09-23.
11.^ Sammari, Laïd (2006-09-23). "Oussama Ben Laden serait mort" (in French). L'Est Républicain. Retrieved 2006-09-23.
12.^ "Chirac says no evidence bin Laden has died". MSNBC.com/AP. 2006-09-23. Retrieved 2006-09-23.
13.^ "Information sur la mort de ben Laden: Washington ne confirme pas" (in French). Le Monde/Agence France-Presse. 2006-09-23.
14.^ Anna Willard and David Morgan (2006-09-23). "France, US, unable to confirm report bin Laden dead". Reuters.
15.^ "Osama bin Elvis". Retrieved 2009-03-15.
16.^ "Pakistan's President says Osama bin Laden could be dead", Telegraph, 2009-04-27.
Clearly, this is not simply a rumour, it's a lot more than a conspiracy theory, and is much more than marginally notable. If true, the whole video section would need re-assessing. In fact, it looks most like something most people recognise but many people are afraid to say. Wikipedia is not censored, some mention of this needs inclusion.
MalcolmMcDonald (
talk) 19:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
May I sugest that you take this up with the bin Laden article itself? -- Tarage ( talk) 02:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The archive of this talk page has some discussion about this topic already. The animated gif is really annoying and detracts from reading the article. It doesn't add to the reader's understanding of the topic. A good quality still image would be better. It should be changed. Bendav ( talk) 15:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
I've found this orphan, it asks if it can be introduced to related articles. What do you folks think, is it applicable? Praxidikai ( talk) 21:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
See the WP:ALLEGED section of WP:WTA concerning the use of words that introduce bias and the use of "scare quotes". There's nothing wrong with the old language, which merely used the phrase " War on Terrorism", defined in its article as "the common term for what the George W. Bush administration perceived or presented as the military, political, legal and ideological conflict ..." — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 19:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Simple question what is POV about calling it a campaign? BigDunc 19:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I just want to add that since "war on terrorism" is used as a name, it is typical to place it inside quotation marks, as seen here: [11], [12], [13]. -- JokerXtreme ( talk) 10:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Enough now, there is a clear consensus for the original wording. The end. --
OpenFuture (
talk) 11:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The section "Motiviation" is fairly decent, but doesnt seem to include one key factor: the US's support of Israel. There are quite a few reliable secondary sources that describe that motivation. I propose to add a sentence such as:
Several analysts cite the United States' support of Israel as one of the motivations for the attacks. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]
The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said.
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Any comments or suggestions? -- Noleander ( talk) 20:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Not sure about fellow contributors, but I've been watching the latest in series of 'thoughtcrimes', along with headlines about self-destruction with interest, if not amusement.
I'd like to open debate about new section which would note such notable 'witch hunts' we're experiencing in aftermath of 9/11. Since the terminology already deployed might bring some confusion, I'd ask good faithed editors to think in such alternatives as 'academic and political freedoms', or something along those lines.
To illustrate:
Van Jones - publicly endorsed thoughtcrime, retracted his claims, but tainted for life (or until the new investigation) - had to resign.
Marion Cotillard - publicly committed thoughtcrime, shocked and awed by the strength of inquisition which showed some leniency after reprogramming and expurgation of the subject.
Rosie O'Donnell - publicly committed thoughtcrime, gone in seven seconds.
Jean-Marie Bigard - publicly committed thoughtcrime, apologised after expurgation, reprogramming failed.
Kevin Barrett - more than 60 state inquisitors attacked Barrett simultaneously (reference provided is not suitable for wikka wakka), it was notorious case, one of many.
Coleen Rowley - 'crucified for doing unthinkable' thoughtcrime.
Sibel Edmonds - A Patriot Silenced, Unjustly Fired but Fighting Back to Help Keep America Safe
or
French professor sacked over 9/11 conspiracy theory
...and so on.
So, what do you folks say, are references provided (or not) enough to warrant new section with such working title as 'culture of critical dissent' Praxidikai ( talk) 03:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I love how being in blatant denial of reality suddenly is a "thoughtcrime". :) I don't see how a list of 9/11 conspiracy theorists have anything to do with this article. They could of course be mentioned on the conspiracy page. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 19:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Fundamentally speaking, would neutral article attract questions about neutrality? You cannot impose something and claim consensus and/or neutrality. Let me ask, where is Able danger? What happened to the closely related topic that resulted with substantial article? Why is there one way link only? Please provide reasonable explanation for such omission, and we'll move on to other 'unanswered questions', just to remind you that we have whole lot to talk about. Praxidikai ( talk) 15:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The template is missing a link to /Title & comma archive, of Sep - Oct 2004. I don't know how to add this to the template. Maurreen ( talk) 05:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
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editsemiprotected}}
Done --
OpenFuture (
talk) 23:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to propose changing the sentence "When the north tower collapsed, debris heavily damaged the nearby 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) building. Its structural integrity was further compromised by fires, which led to the crumbling of the east penthouse at 5:20 p.m. and to the complete collapse of the building at 5:21 p.m." as it is factually incorrect.
The latest government report issued by NIST has concluded that heavy damage was not sustained due to debris, but the collapse was in fact caused by fires that were ignited by debris from WTC 2.
The words 'primarily caused by fire' and the section on what caused the initiation both support the idea that structural damage did not contribute to the collapse (other than igniting fires)
The new study can be found here, and specifically in regard to damage from debris found in section 4.3.1 on page 46: http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf
I'd propose something more along the lines of "When the north tower collapsed, debris ignited fires in nearby 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) building. Fires burned for hours weakening the structural integrity of the building, which led to the crumbling of the east penthouse... etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.189.240 ( talk) 00:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is folks, the investigation was botched. I don't care what your opinion is, but to take findings that are challenged as fact is not what we do here in wikiworld. The problem with this article is the editors popularizing of contested findings in a botched investigation. And then routinely dismissing contest over the facts. This is abuse for sure. There are a few ways we can handle this situation. First of all, this is not a "case closed" terror attack and nor should it be treated as such here. The simplest way to treat it is to specify who said what and what finding did they state. Remember that facts are in part verifiable; not just "consensus." There are many methods employed to arrive at fact, and then when the dust settles there will be consensus. It wasn't easy to prove the world was round, but we arrived at the fact eventually. What the editors are doing in here has all been done before and will continue to the end of time because people fear what they don't understand and they get angry when they find out Santa Clause is not real. Basic human nature. That is why we strive so hard to keep this all to the facts. Belief is something that can be manipulated, used to serve a purpose, forge an agenda and ultimately will be challenged because belief is not fact. I don't really care about what people believe. Nor do I care about their opinions. What I care about here is fact. As for the discrediting campaign, that is a classic tactic to silence questions and send findings into obscurity, only later to be found and proven correct. Effort should be made to preserve the questioners and their findings.
Finally, I would also suggest renaming the section titled "Conspiracy Theories." There really is no question or contest that people conspired. The section would be better served if it were titled "Challenges to Findings," or "Ongoing Investigation," or even "NIST Report Fails." The section also lacks in a wealth of facts and is very biased, as is the entire article. This article is a good example of an editor with beliefs and an agenda and an open disregard for facts. I find the bias here shameful. Not just in this section, but throughout. Furthermore, propaganda should always be challenged, exposed and questioned. There will be no home for propaganda in the wikiworld. There are plenty of outlets for it on the internet, on television, on the radio and in print. If an item of any kind comes to light as an item of propaganda it should be immediately removed. From this and every article. Venus III ( talk) 14:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
"Conspiracy theories Main article: 9/11 conspiracy theories
Some people question the official version of the bombings, the motivations behind them, and the parties involved, and have engaged in further investigation. Most of the alternative theories see the bombings as a casus belli through a false flag to bring about increased militarization and police power. Participants in the 9/11 Truth movement have been called "truthers." Should read and I propose "Thousands of professionals and citizens have come together with questions regarding various aspects of the investigation. Groups such as Architects and engineers for 9/11 truth along with Firefighters for 9/11 truth; are searching for answers. www.ae911truth.org and www.firefightersfor911truth.org."
Proponents of 9/11 conspiracy theories have suggested that individuals inside the United States possessed detailed information about the attacks and deliberately chose not to prevent them, or that individuals outside of al-Qaeda planned, carried out, or assisted in the attacks. Some conspiracy theorists claim the World Trade Center did not collapse because of the crashing planes but was demolished with explosives.[197][unreliable source?] Should read and I propose: "Scientists, firefighters, scholars and citizens alike are concerned by the failure of investigators to follow simple rules, such as the National Fire Protection Association NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations. http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=921&cookie_test=1."
This controlled demolition hypothesis is rejected by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and by the American Society of Civil Engineers, who, after their research, both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Towers.[198][199][200]" I propose to add: "Architects and engineers are calling for a grand jury investigation into Sunders and Gross failure to follow regulation with regard to testing for accelerants, among other things. NIST denies the existence of molten metal even though we have video and photographic evidence suggesting otherwise." http://www.nj.com/weird/
Thanks for your consideration in adding these proposed changes. I think it will improve the article greatly. I can provide more reference material as well if needed. Sincerely, Venus III ( talk) 21:48, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
AP News Article: http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2010/02/raritan_twp_man_involvled_in_g.html Venus III ( talk) 23:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE The majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader may understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding parts of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. Venus III ( talk) 23:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a primary source. Its inclusion in any section would require a violation of WP:SYNTH. The researchers themselves draw no conclusions other than observing the discovery of a particular chemical compound. Rklawton ( talk) 21:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I tagged the following paragraph as a WP:COATRACK:
The paragraph is about the politicization of American art, not memorials to the 9/11 attack. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 19:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
So, let's sort out who stands where:
Ok, what is this 'Truth About 9/11 Conspiracy Theories'?
'The underlying factors likely have more to do with psychology. Indeed, it is often said that conspiracy theories are born out of a sense of powerlessness. In the wake of Sept. 11 and the emergence of the nihilistic threat of Islamic terrorism, feelings of impotence and vulnerability were all too natural. All Americans were affected by such fears. But instead of facing the daunting truth, the Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists chose the path of denial.'
Sense of powerlessness? Nihilistic threat?! Daunting truth?!! Path of denial?!!! : O
These are some striking, striking facts, and, as a bonus, it also speaks about 'familiar demons' and 'never mind' too, bravo. We're degrading this project quite rapidly here, eh? Praxidikai ( talk) 03:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Praxidikai is attempting to disrupt the article again by removing a valid source which outlines the various "truther" theories - with sources. Since I've been editing this article, even though it's to undo vandalism and the work of conspiracy theories, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to simply indef block this special purpose account. However, if there is a consensus, I'll bring the matter up to AN/I for resolution. I feel that Praxidikai's activities are oriented toward disruption rather than contribution, and that the editor is an obvious special purpose account with editing knowledge indicative of prior editing experience under a different name. Thoughts? Rklawton ( talk) 14:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
According to CNN [15], the Iranian president has said that 9/11 was a staged attack by the United States. In order to give pre-text to several middle eastern wars. This is a rather notable development and should be included somewheres on this site. -- Kuzwa ( talk) 18:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Conspiracies schmucksracies, how about we simply reference it and say it as reliable sources? Without defamation, is that possibly possible? Can we do that here? What exactly are we doing here? AFP, AP, Reuters... Praxidikai ( talk) 22:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
How is he relevant to the subject? He has no special knowledge of the event and has no technical or academic insights. RxS ( talk) 23:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Say, 'Saren', why have you closed this discussion so abruptly? Enforcement of POV by a notorious group of editors is not a consensus. You've ignored our norms and practices and misused your privileges. Praxidikai ( talk) 17:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | → | Archive 55 |
If American society at large payed their tributes by erecting memorials that showed their sympathy with the victims, the community of creative artists showed differing sensibilities. Although in recent decades art has been politicized, with sociopolitical problems inspiring much artistic activity, the art community was distinctly chary in responding to the September 11 terrorist attacks. According to Commentary, only one significant monumental artistic response to 9/11 was made: Eric Fischl's bronze sculpture Tumbling Woman, which was installed in Rockefeller Center one year later. The figure, however, was stripped of any sense of poignancy or dignity, "showing her landing ridiculously on her head, with all the bathos of an unsightly spill in the tub." The statue gave offense, and it was removed promptly. Most other art that followed 9/11 "suffered from the same moral incoherence". Commentary identifies the reigning political bias among artists as the explanation. It suspects that the lack of noteworthy attempts to humanize the victims may be due to "fear that it might dehumanize their killers".[243]
I don't feel this paragraph fits in with the otherwise high quality of the article. This sounds like the beginnings of a political rant as opposed to reporting verifiable facts.
99.20.251.63 ( talk) 05:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
The FAQ template is ideological and POV.
Hence I'm removing that horrible template.
-- Sugaar ( talk) 15:43, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Comment not related to the purpose of this page, which is to improve the article on the
September 11 attacks.
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Over the last two days over 500,000 intercepts of what are purported to be pager messages from 9/11 were published by Wikilinks [1]. Most reliable sources seem to think they are real but no definitive proof exists. As of this point there have been no earth shattering revelations. I think this should be considered for the External links section. It is a classic external link in that it adds detail to material in the article. There is a reliability question Edkollin ( talk) 08:34, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be stated that the attack was allegedly carried out by Al Qaeda? Nobody has been found guilty in court yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RussellEngland ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
What are reliable sources? On the morning of Aug. 31, 1939, what were "reliable sources" reporting about the Gleiwitz incident? I did not check but I suspect that "reliable sources" all over Germany reported that Polish soldiers had attacked a radio station on German soil. What credence can be given to the mainstream media in a propaganda war? Especially when the entire media apparatus is owned and controlled by a small clique who have a common interest in presenting a single POV? It would be interesting to find out how that Gleiwitz story was first presented in different parts of the globe and how it has evolved since.
The comparison with 9/11 is a valid one in as much as a growing number of people do now believe that both were false flag operations.
It was probably OK for Wikipedia to assert many years ago that Al-Quaida was solely responsible for 9/11. Even I believed it at one point. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since. Unfortunately the MSM has not followed suite. Why? Because the MSM are owned and controlled by entities that have a vested interest in suppressing the truth. How can I source that? Not in any MSM publication I'm afraid...
There is a nice quote from Gandhi that comes to mind: « First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. »
I believe that the laugh period is almost completely behind us now, in spite of vain attempts by staunch supporters of the Official Version to link truthers to "Elvis is still alive" proponents. We are now somewhere between fighting and winning, I would assume. Just like when Nelson Mandela stopped being primarily characterized as a terrorist. It would be interesting to research at what point in time major news organizations shifted from the terrorist label to a more neutral stance. Same thing for Galileo Galilei; at what point in time did it become politically correct to let it be known that some people questioned the notion that the earth was at the centre of the universe. When did it become OK to say that it was "alleged" that the sun, instead of the earth, was at the center?
Even though they risk ruining their carrers, some people have dared to speak out. Charlie Sheen, for example, has published a series of questions he wishes Obama to respond to. I know. I know. He's an actor. So what? His questions deserve answers none the less. No point in sourcing those questions here. I'm pretty sure that anyone who lands on this page is aware of what I am referring to. The important thing to keep in mind is that Charlie Sheen merely asks questions. He does not pretend to know what happened on 9/11. But he expresses his scepticism, which I share and which would reflect itself by inserting the word "allegedly" everywhere it belongs until such time as it can be removed to make way to a new certainty of who actually was responsible, if such a day does occur.
Other people who's opinion should matter do have impressive credentials. I'm referring here to people like Albert Stubblebine who was the commanding general of the United States Army Intelligence and Security Command from 1981 to 1984 and Francesco Cossiga who was Prime Minister of Italy (1979-1980), President of the Senate (1983-1985), President of the Republic (1985-1992) and Senator for life since 1992. These prominent people are very old and retired, of course. Otherwise, would they foolishly have put their neck out by expressing their views with the risk of compromising their career?
I read somewhere that Wikipedia is based on consensus. OK, how do we check what the consensus is? Do we take a vote or something? Oclupak ( talk) 15:24, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Major General Albert Stubblebine
I edited General Stubblebine's wikipedia page to provide a link to the video source where he states that "a Boeing 757 airplane could not have crashed into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001". In that video, he goes on to say: "We pride ourselves with a free press. I do not believe the free press is free anymore. It's very expensive. It's very expensive. And the press is saying what they have been told to say about this. Now, do I have proof of that? No. But I believe that what is being... what... certainly the stories that we're told about all about 9/11 were false. I mean you take a look at the buildings falling down. They didn't fall down because airplanes hit'em, they fell down because of explosives went off [inaudible] demolition. Look at building Seven, for God's sake."
The link to the video is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daNr_TrBw6E. I ask you now, isn't he a credible source? He was, after all, responsible for all of the Army's strategic intelligence forces around the world, at one point in his career. Shouldn't his one and only testimony be sufficient to attenuate at least a little bit the assertion that 19 islamist hijackers did it?
About the comment concerning goatstaring, I do admit that it seems, at first glance, to be a frivolous proposition. But so would have been, before the Manhattan Project, the mere notion that the splitting of a particle so small that it is invisible to the human eye could lead to an explosion of unprecedented force, capable of destroying an entire city. I haven't seen the Coen brothers' film based on the book The Men Who Stare at Goats yet, but perhaps there is some serious science behind the research General Stubblebine was involved in and which was funded by the U.S. military. I note however that this element seems to have been brought in this discussion for the sole purpose of discrediting the testimony of a legitimate source. Isn't attacking the messenger a crime on Wikipedia?
Francesco Cossiga
I edited my previous post to add a link to Francesco Cossiga's wikipedia page. On it, there is a quote from an interview he gave to the newspaper Corriere della Sera, which is, if I am not mistaken, a very reputable italian newspaper. The interview is dated Nov. 30, 2007. In the English translation provided on the Wikipedia page, he is reported as having said: "[...] all of the democratic circles of America and of Europe, in the front lines being those of the Italian centre-left, now know well that the disastrous attack was planned and realized by the American CIA and Mossad with the help of the Zionist world to put under accusation the Arabic Countries and to persuade the Western powers to intervene in Iraq and Afghanistan."
As I mentioned earlier, this man was Prime Minister of Italy (1979-1980), President of the Senate (1983-1985), President of the Republic (1985-1992). Isn't that credentials enough? Has Corriere della Sera suddenly fallen into disrepute?
How many more "credible people" quoted in "reliable sources" must I come up with to alter the opening statement of the page which, in my opinion, misleads people into believing that the official theory is the only one out there? If I came up with a thousand, would it help you to budge? Oclupak ( talk) 19:21, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
This article is extremely POV, including virtually only the official version of events as portrayed by the Bush administration.
It needs clear rebalancing in order to be NPOV.
I'd suggest to:
1. Make the official version shorter (it's extremely long and does not deal with the many doubts that exist in most of each "evidence" items) and detach the rest of contents to a different article.
2. Give some more room to the main alternative theory, which is that 9/11 was an insider job by the security services (references: one, [two http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=theme&themeId=18]- there must be many others).
As the article is it breches totally the NPOV policy and is a horrible symptom of the decay of Wikipedia into the hands of agendas.
-- Sugaar ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
All,
I just wanted to point out that there is a discrepancy in the total number of causalities from the top figure (second paragraph) "In total 2,993 people, including the hijackers, died..." and then under Casualties-- "There were a total of 2,995..."-- there is a discrepancy of 2 casualties (this is not accounted for by the inclusion or exclusion of hijackers...), but I couldn't hunt the reason for the actual discrepancy down from what I read. Thanks, 69.4.36.98 ( talk) 17:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Dear all,
Yesterday I proposed changes to this article in light of research undertaken for the delivery of a university course that I teach. The edits were reversed and it was suggested I posted my reasoning for the changes to the discussion page. I have no affiliation to any 9/11 truth organisation, have been to no meeting in support or against 9/11. I have corresponded with only two people active in posting on the subject (one against conspiracy theories, one in favour of them). My proposed contribution to the article is the result of independent research after reading many reports and articles, and reviewing six documentaries produced in both the US and UK. You can check my credentials at http://www.shu.ac.uk/sbs/research/organisational-development/sp_rory_ridley_duff.html and Marquis's Who's Who in the World 2009.
Below is text (approximate) I added to the talkpage of editors who reversed my changes, or supported the reversal.
"Thank you for your comment on my contribution to the September 11 Attacks article. I'm a senior lecturer at a university in the UK. I include a lecture on 9/11 as part of a philosophy course I give to doctoral students (i.e. those studying for a PhD) to illustrate the contested and constructed nature of knowledge and truth. I am well aware of the key issues raised by 9/11, and the contested nature of 'truth' on this subject.
The current Wikipedia article does not provide balanced coverage of key claims about 9/11. It is the lack of awareness about the contested nature of events on September 11 that makes the current article weak. It falls outside Wikipedia's own guidelines for neutrality and censors views that have been accepted into parts of the academic community, and networks of people who have conducted extensive research into 9/11 issues. One of my concerns is that 'facts' are accepted on the basis of news reports, while other contributions based on peer-reviewed journal articles (albeit not of the highest quality), and good quality documentaries from the BBC and independent documentary makers, are rejected.........
One criticism of my contribution is that the views expressed in the article are already 'mainstream', and that the proposed additions would be controversial. I refute both these claims as detailed below. By 2006, at least 1/3 of the US population believed the US government played a conscious role in the 9/11 attacks (see http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/12137). Worldwide, there are countries in which almost one-third of the population believe that either Israel or the US government were as likely, or more likely, than Al Quaida to have perpetrated the attacks ( http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-35417520080910). For Wikipedia to be 'balanced', it must include these views in any article on the September 11th attacks and acknowledge international views and research into this matter.
The proposed changes, therefore, counter obvious bias in the September 11th Attack article and ensure that the opinions of large numbers or people, including many credible engineers, physicists, academics, politicians and eye-witnesses, are represented. The proposed changes did not remove any existing material to ensure that the views already expressed remain (there was no attempt to censor others points of view, only an attempt to provide the necessary balance to the article overall). The counter perspectives are well-documented and supported by evidence (including two court cases). Other claims are based on active debates amongst academics. These debates are likely to be closer to the 'truth' that bulletins from news channels and should be included in the article.
There is no 'bias' or 'controversy' in reporting that there are ongoing court cases, mass movements and academic debates that question the version of truth presented in the current article. These are matters of fact, not opinion, and it distorts understanding of the subject to omit these facts from the article. It gives the impression that the statements in the article are uncontested. This is clearly untrue so the omission breaches Wikipedia guidelines to write from a neutral point of view (NPOV). I added no judgement as to which version of the truth is more 'true' - the edits simply balanced the debate."
To the above, I would like to add the follow. In the university sector we discuss the use of Wikipedia by students often. The main weakness of Wikipedia (as viewed by universities) is that its editors are insufficiently schooled in both philosophy and research skills. As a consequence, many struggle to differentiate between issues of editing and censorship. The result is many Wikipedia articles are based on popular prejudices (or popular opinion) rather than evidence-based research. For this reason, many lecturers ban the use of Wikipedia. I'm not one of these lecturers - I make relevant contributions on matters that I have researched or regular give lectures at post-graduate level. I encourage students to use Wikipedia, but also to check out the quality of the sources on which the articles are based. I support the Wikipedia project but do worry about the level of censorship when matters move outside 'popular prejudice' and enter the realm of academic debate.
Providing contributions are backed by credible evidence, editors should always seek to include them and provide guidance to ensure the overall article is balanced. An awareness of 'credible' show encompass knowledge created using varied scientific traditions. This means checking out the sources behind contributions before removing them (too often they are removed instantly without checking the credibility of the sources). It also means that editors need to ensure that debates and controversies are managed not excluded.
At present, this article is heavily biased towards one politicised view rooted in a narrow section of US/UK opinion. At present, this brings Wikipedia itself into international disrepute. The claims made in the article are not backed by a standard of evidence that would warrant their inclusion as 'fact'. For this reason, the article should reflect the alleged nature of matters where they have not been conclusively proved one way or the other (or where there is no consensus). Key issues of academic debate and contested issues in the legal domain are not currently addressed.
Overall, it is my view the article must be amended to stay within Wikipedia's own editing guidelines.
I will leave it one day before restoring the contributions suggested to the article and sincerely hope that editors will ensure the changes remain.
Best wishes
User:Roryridleyduff Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 20:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
You are not checking the source I've given. Other polls put the numbers thinking people are not telling the whole truth at 80%. In the quoted article, those believing the US government was in some way complicit was 36% (the question is clear - read the report). I am, therefore, not 'ranting' as you put it - I'm trying to provide properly sources and balanced reports of this matter.
The court cases, incidentally, are ongoing - I checked with a source directly involved in reporting the cases before posting this information.
Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 21:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 21:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
At the time of the above posting I had read one article rejected by the 9/11 journal and one accepted. The accepted article seemed solid, the other did not. Following your comments, I have read other articles published there. While I appreciate that the standard of peer-review (and academic theorisation) is less than I would expect in academic journals to which I've contributed, it still appears to be better than journalistic sources that are not subject to any peer-review.
I do not know the current state of the legal case by Dr Morgan Reynolds other than that the initial case was dismissed. As for the legal case by Dr Judy Wood, I checked with the person who issues her press releases in the UK (who works in the Open Univeristy) whether the case would go forward. The response was that an appeal is being considered now. The legal ruling (available at www.drjudywood.com) gives Judy Wood permission to resubmit the case after revisions that would ensure it complies with Fraud Act. The ground for dismissing the case (officially, at least) are that the claim is not set out in the way the Fraud Act requires - the cases have not yet even got to the point of considering any evidence. While the court expressed a lack of sympathy regarding resubmission, it made clear that a decision on resubmission would be for the District Court. The case, therefore, remains open for the time being.
"As such it is contrary to Wikipedia policy to give conspiracy theories anything other than minimal coverage in this article."
The official Wikipedia NPOV policy requires that 'significant minority point of view' are included in articles. The edits ensure that these 'significant minority' views are added to the article.
On this point, you are making a basic epistemological error. The 'official story' is itself a conspiracy theory (it is a theory - unverified - that a group of people conspired to hijack planes and fly them into the World Trade Center and Pentagon). Even the most basic evidence is contradictory (such as the alleged hijackers names not being on flight manifest, and the fires burned for over a month at temperatures that could not possible be due to jet fuel). It is not 'neutral' to suppress contradictions that are available through published thermal scans of the area, eye-witnesses, scientific reports (including government reports).
You are making basic epistemological errors by assuming that 'official' (i.e. government) sources are reliable while academic and professional sources are not. In all 'proper' research, it is necessary to remain sceptical of official (managerial) sources: they are not considered reliable much of the time because of the effects of power within organisational cultures and political systems. A reliable source is one that make evidence-based claims after using a reliable methodology for its investigative process. It can also be based on the application of logic or established theory to known 'facts' using a 'correspondence' theory of truth. Much of the controversy derives from a failure of known facts to correspond with known scientific theory. To be balanced, the article must acknowledge the scale of scientific evidence that the official story is contradictory (not 'false' but contradictory - does not accord to known scientific theory and available evidence).
On the issue of evidencing the scale of the 'significant minority' point of view, see http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/13469. By 2006, it was reported in the New York Times (following a major poll on many issues that I obtained in full) that 81% of the US public question the official story on some level (either withholding or lying). 28% of people (almost 1/3 of the population) believing the government is proactively lying. Only 16% now believe the government is telling the truth.
The Wikipedia guideline require that the views of these significant minorities are included in the article. By omitting them, you are contravening the Wikipedia guidelines. It remains my view - as a neutral academic who is not involved in the 9/11 Truth movement, that the article must be revised to remain within the NPOV guidelines.
The problems in the current article is ones of epistemology (standards and criteria of truth and knowledge), and breach of the Wikipedia guidelines.
Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 15:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
--- Rebuttal of false information given above ---
Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 10:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Indeed, public opinion is only a measure of what is a majority or minority opinion - this is an issue in Wikipedia guidelines if we can to include 'substantial minority' points of view. If we turn to academic opinion, then the presence and size of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth network must be taken into account alongside the size and scale of the Engineers for 9/11 Truth network. I'm not aware of any academic network in support of the 'official' story, but I would be delighted to learn of one because I've search for one to provide balancing opinions on my courses. There are occasional academic articles refered to in various documentaries. What I do consistently detect, however, is an unstated coalition of government and media interests (within NIST, FEMA, the court system, Fox News, New Corporation sources) who are struggling to maintain control over the 'truth' of events surrounding September 11. People allied to these interests are in a constant battle with academics and professional groups who question their right to control determination of 'truth' regarding these events. This 'battle' (if that is the right word) extent to every sphere, including Wikipedia. As an academic, I naturally want to eliminate censorship of views so they can be debated properly in a sober and systematic way. Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 20:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roryridleyduff ( talk • contribs)
Tarage, you're just being rude. Why? Why such a vitriolic response? Why such an aggressive tone? For tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar....me thinks the editor's strong words betray his academic abilities and perhaps rouse his emotive opinions on the matter. Time will tell Tarage, as your editing shows a lack of acceptable balance. Do you really think that when buildings fall don by their own accord, and architects, mathematicians and other academics keep signing up for the 'truthers' side, that you continue to portray a balance. There must be some new usage of the word balance that im not aware of. Your stubborn rebuttals will only fuel the belief there is something to hide....I wish you luck in stopping the tide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.99.96.180 ( talk) 08:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the main article should be edited to include the following information: John Farmer, Dean of Rutger Universities' School of Law and former Attorney General of New Jersey, was the Senior Counsel for the 911 Commission, and was responsible for drafting the original 9/11 Commission report. In John Farmer’s book: “The Ground Truth: The Story Behind America’s Defense on 9/11″, Farmer states, “at some level of the government, at some point in time…there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened... I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The [Norad air defense] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. This is not spin.” Rickoff ( talk) 07:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Tuesday, Or What about the "On this day..." weekday topic of 9/11 Please call it Tuesday September 11, 2001. A newbie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.148.250 ( talk) 01:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
US Mainstream media is to close to the major political parties. Their is too much completion and therefore there are no budgets for Watergate style investigative reporting. Reporters are forced to rely mainly Republican and Democratic sourcing. Republicans do not want a possible conspiracy exposed for obvious reasons. Democrats do not want it for two reasons. Despite being liberal at heart they have been a scared and uber cautious party for many years. Therefore they will not do anything remotely risky. There are too many reasons for this to list here but a good start is that they think the country is to the right of them and the 24//7 attack dog political atmosphere. The other reason is their common belief that Bush and the Republicans are to stupid to even speak correctly never mind pull off a conspiracy. As for the media as numerous studies have shown that reporters are a largely liberal group so they share the "to stupid" belief. Their coverage of the 9/11 truth movement reflects this. You see a look of people who have been called to go to work just before their participation in an orgy. When the relevant issues are discussed in many cases it has the look of a quick read just before airtime. But most efforts are put into truthers mental state.
Since Wikipedia is about verifiability not truth of course this article will reflect the "official theory" consensus. The reliable source policy remains a good but flawed policy in bringing out the truth. While MSM standards have declined markedly it is still a hell of a lot more reliable on the whole then webpages. There are some great webpages but how does one figure it out without OR?. So wikipedia policy stays with a the sinking ship known as MSM. From the sarcasm that occasionally creeps in these talk pages it becomes clear that the majority of editors especially long time committed ones do not believe in the theories they write about. Not sure why. Maybe most committed Wikipedia editors do come from the academic world where things like citing reliable/expert sources is their life's work. In any case newbie "truther" editors do not stand a chance winning talk page discussions against veterans who know the policies.
America is a forward looking country, 8 years have passed Bush is not president etc. There is conspiracy theory fatigue which has caused almost daily lumping together of all "loony" conspiracy theories and theorists. There is always the "first impression" rule. Three or four years ago conspiracy theorists were limited to individuals on their webpages and professors whom not only knew nothing about physics but came from very unscientific disciplines such as philosophy. While reliable sources still by far agree with the the official theory, this has changed noticeably. How much this has changed is very arguable but the near unanimous reliable sourcing claims made here just are incorrect but they are also the consensus here.
For at least four years there have been attempts to change basic direction of the article to a more "truther" point of view and for four years they have failed. The basic points raised by both sides have not changed. We need to invoke the WP:SNOWBALL clause and just put our efforts into improving the article. 69.114.104.152 ( talk) 22:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
The Canadian CBC aired a documentary last week as part of their program The Fifth Estate. The episode is called "The Unofficial story". It mentions both the Official and the Unofficial versions in an unusually fair and balanced light —if anything, it has a definite favorable bias towards the Official story as evidenced by the smirky smile when host Bob McKeown mentions the conspiracy theorists.
All the same it is one of the rare occasions when both sides of the story are presented with a certain degree of professionalism and it constitutes one of the best documentaries to have aired on mainstream TV on the subject of 9/11. Would it be OK to post a reference to the Fifth Estate's website which is at:
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/discussion/2009/11/the_unofficial_story.html
It is possible to view the entire documntary online, but apparently for Canadian viewers only. American and all other foreign viewers are blocked from the streaming video, I am told. But it is available on YouTube.
Unfortunately, it is cut up in 5 ten-minute segments:
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkYlbpS-vVI
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4xhrJyKGQ8
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=femgO-ZYDm0
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjxrGUujXVc
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XcaORNbh4A
The link to the Fifth Estate website, which also contains other elements besides the video documentary, could be added to the Exterior links section at the bottom of the page. Oclupak ( talk) 20:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
What is the discussion page for if not to discuss the September 11 attacks? That CBC documentary deals specifically with a single subject: The 9/11 attacks. It does not lean one way or the other. Well OK, it is a bit biased in favour of the Official story. But basically, this documentary belongs here more than anywhere else it seems to me. I am baffled by the kind of logic that seems to prevail here. Oclupak ( talk) 23:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
That proposal was made by me for the 9/11 Conspiracies Theories Article and was dragged here by another editor without my knowledge. It was never intended for this article. There is no need for this proposal in this article. This article has been written based on the strong editor consensus that the article should reflect the "mainstream account" for years. Edkollin ( talk) 16:15, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
I am baffled by the editors' attitude all through the discussion section. Not only do you remain clearly oblivious to any but your own account of the facts, but the general tone is bullish and alarmingly disrespectful. I would suggest any reading of this article to remain seriously skeptical about the contents being presented, since only one side of an on-going and important debate has weight in the events being described. The editors should bear in mind that they never bother to answer issues being raised with arguments, just dismiss them in a fully self-satisfied way: to any neutral reader, these editors come across as hooligans, sorry to say. You can erase my comment as I am sure you will, but that does not make you any better wikipedians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Junkyardmusic ( talk • contribs) 22:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
There is a considerable section on Osama's videos since 911 - but no apparent mention that huge numbers of people believe him dead - most likely in Dec 2001, 3 or 3.5 months after 911. This would totally invalidate the section on videos, and needs adding. Something like this, or at least a cut down version of it:
Vague reports of the death of bin Laden started circulating in Dec 2001 eg the Pakistan Observer quoted an unnamed Taliban official claiming that he had died of natural causes and was buried in an unmarked grave in Tora Bora on December 15.
[1]
[2] The Egyptian newspaper
AlWafd - Daily reported a prominent official of the Afghan Taliban stated that Bin Laden had been buried on or about December 13:
[3] A videotape was released on December 27 showing a gaunt, unwell Bin Laden, prompting an unnamed White House aide to comment that it could have been made shortly before his death.
[1] On CNN, Dr Sanjay Gupta commented that Bin Laden's left arm never moved during the video, suggesting a recent stroke and possibly a symptom of kidney failure.
[4] According to Pakistani President Musharraf, Bin Laden required two dialysis machines, which also suggests kidney failure.
[5] "I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a... kidney patient," Musharraf said.
[5] If Bin Laden suffered kidney failure, he would require a sterile environment, electricity, and continuous attention by a team of specialists, Gupta said.
[4] FBI Counterterrorism chief Dale Watson and President Karzai of Afghanistan also expressed the opinion that Bin Laden probably died at this time.
[6]
[7] In late 2005 the CIA disbanded "Alec Station", the unit dedicated to Bin Laden.
[8]
On 23 September 2006, the French newspaper
L'Est Républicain quoted a report from the French secret service (
Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure, DGSE) stating that Osama bin Laden had died in Pakistan on 23 August 2006, after contracting a case of
typhoid fever that paralyzed his lower limbs.
[9] According to the newspaper, Saudi security services first heard of bin Laden's alleged death on 4 September 2006.
[10]
[11]
[12] though
French President
Jacques Chirac declared that bin Laden's death had not been confirmed.
[13]
American authorities also cannot confirm reports of bin Laden's death,
[14] In an essay published in
The American Spectator in March 2009,
international relations professor Angelo Codevilla of
Boston University argued that Osama bin Laden had been dead for many years.
[15] In April 2009 Pakistan's intelligence agencies were said to believe Osama bin Laden may be dead.
[16] and on the 8th anniversary of 911 the UK's
Daily Mail said that the theory that Bin Laden died in 2001 "is gaining credence among political commentators, respected academics and even terror experts" and notes that the mounting evidence that supports the claim makes the theory "worthy of examination".
[3]
1.^ a b David Ray Griffin, Osama Bin Laden: Dead or Alive?, pp. 3–5.
2.^ "Report: Bin Laden Already Dead", Fox, 2001-12-26.
3.^ a b Reid, Sue (September 11, 2009). "Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years - and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror?". Daily Mail. Retrieved October 25, 2009.
4.^ a b "Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Bin Laden would need help if on dialysis", CNN, 2002-01-21.
5.^ a b "Musharraf: bin Laden likely dead", CNN, 2002-01-19.
6.^ "Bin Laden 'probably' dead", BBC, 2002-07-18.
7.^ "Karzai: bin Laden 'probably' dead", CNN, 2002-10-07.
8.^ "C.I.A. Closes Unit Focused on Capture of bin Laden.". New York Times. 2006-07-04. Retrieved 2007-08-21. "The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said."
9.^ "Officials, friends can't confirm Bin Laden death report". CNN. 2006-09-23. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
10.^ "23T075358Z_01_L23801953_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SECURITY-BINLADEN-FRANCE.xml French paper says bin Laden died in Pakistan". Reuters. 2006-09-23.
11.^ Sammari, Laïd (2006-09-23). "Oussama Ben Laden serait mort" (in French). L'Est Républicain. Retrieved 2006-09-23.
12.^ "Chirac says no evidence bin Laden has died". MSNBC.com/AP. 2006-09-23. Retrieved 2006-09-23.
13.^ "Information sur la mort de ben Laden: Washington ne confirme pas" (in French). Le Monde/Agence France-Presse. 2006-09-23.
14.^ Anna Willard and David Morgan (2006-09-23). "France, US, unable to confirm report bin Laden dead". Reuters.
15.^ "Osama bin Elvis". Retrieved 2009-03-15.
16.^ "Pakistan's President says Osama bin Laden could be dead", Telegraph, 2009-04-27.
Clearly, this is not simply a rumour, it's a lot more than a conspiracy theory, and is much more than marginally notable. If true, the whole video section would need re-assessing. In fact, it looks most like something most people recognise but many people are afraid to say. Wikipedia is not censored, some mention of this needs inclusion.
MalcolmMcDonald (
talk) 19:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
May I sugest that you take this up with the bin Laden article itself? -- Tarage ( talk) 02:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The archive of this talk page has some discussion about this topic already. The animated gif is really annoying and detracts from reading the article. It doesn't add to the reader's understanding of the topic. A good quality still image would be better. It should be changed. Bendav ( talk) 15:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
I've found this orphan, it asks if it can be introduced to related articles. What do you folks think, is it applicable? Praxidikai ( talk) 21:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
See the WP:ALLEGED section of WP:WTA concerning the use of words that introduce bias and the use of "scare quotes". There's nothing wrong with the old language, which merely used the phrase " War on Terrorism", defined in its article as "the common term for what the George W. Bush administration perceived or presented as the military, political, legal and ideological conflict ..." — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 19:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Simple question what is POV about calling it a campaign? BigDunc 19:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I just want to add that since "war on terrorism" is used as a name, it is typical to place it inside quotation marks, as seen here: [11], [12], [13]. -- JokerXtreme ( talk) 10:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Enough now, there is a clear consensus for the original wording. The end. --
OpenFuture (
talk) 11:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The section "Motiviation" is fairly decent, but doesnt seem to include one key factor: the US's support of Israel. There are quite a few reliable secondary sources that describe that motivation. I propose to add a sentence such as:
Several analysts cite the United States' support of Israel as one of the motivations for the attacks. [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]
The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said.
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Any comments or suggestions? -- Noleander ( talk) 20:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Not sure about fellow contributors, but I've been watching the latest in series of 'thoughtcrimes', along with headlines about self-destruction with interest, if not amusement.
I'd like to open debate about new section which would note such notable 'witch hunts' we're experiencing in aftermath of 9/11. Since the terminology already deployed might bring some confusion, I'd ask good faithed editors to think in such alternatives as 'academic and political freedoms', or something along those lines.
To illustrate:
Van Jones - publicly endorsed thoughtcrime, retracted his claims, but tainted for life (or until the new investigation) - had to resign.
Marion Cotillard - publicly committed thoughtcrime, shocked and awed by the strength of inquisition which showed some leniency after reprogramming and expurgation of the subject.
Rosie O'Donnell - publicly committed thoughtcrime, gone in seven seconds.
Jean-Marie Bigard - publicly committed thoughtcrime, apologised after expurgation, reprogramming failed.
Kevin Barrett - more than 60 state inquisitors attacked Barrett simultaneously (reference provided is not suitable for wikka wakka), it was notorious case, one of many.
Coleen Rowley - 'crucified for doing unthinkable' thoughtcrime.
Sibel Edmonds - A Patriot Silenced, Unjustly Fired but Fighting Back to Help Keep America Safe
or
French professor sacked over 9/11 conspiracy theory
...and so on.
So, what do you folks say, are references provided (or not) enough to warrant new section with such working title as 'culture of critical dissent' Praxidikai ( talk) 03:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I love how being in blatant denial of reality suddenly is a "thoughtcrime". :) I don't see how a list of 9/11 conspiracy theorists have anything to do with this article. They could of course be mentioned on the conspiracy page. -- OpenFuture ( talk) 19:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Fundamentally speaking, would neutral article attract questions about neutrality? You cannot impose something and claim consensus and/or neutrality. Let me ask, where is Able danger? What happened to the closely related topic that resulted with substantial article? Why is there one way link only? Please provide reasonable explanation for such omission, and we'll move on to other 'unanswered questions', just to remind you that we have whole lot to talk about. Praxidikai ( talk) 15:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The template is missing a link to /Title & comma archive, of Sep - Oct 2004. I don't know how to add this to the template. Maurreen ( talk) 05:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}}
Done --
OpenFuture (
talk) 23:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to propose changing the sentence "When the north tower collapsed, debris heavily damaged the nearby 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) building. Its structural integrity was further compromised by fires, which led to the crumbling of the east penthouse at 5:20 p.m. and to the complete collapse of the building at 5:21 p.m." as it is factually incorrect.
The latest government report issued by NIST has concluded that heavy damage was not sustained due to debris, but the collapse was in fact caused by fires that were ignited by debris from WTC 2.
The words 'primarily caused by fire' and the section on what caused the initiation both support the idea that structural damage did not contribute to the collapse (other than igniting fires)
The new study can be found here, and specifically in regard to damage from debris found in section 4.3.1 on page 46: http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf
I'd propose something more along the lines of "When the north tower collapsed, debris ignited fires in nearby 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) building. Fires burned for hours weakening the structural integrity of the building, which led to the crumbling of the east penthouse... etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.189.240 ( talk) 00:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is folks, the investigation was botched. I don't care what your opinion is, but to take findings that are challenged as fact is not what we do here in wikiworld. The problem with this article is the editors popularizing of contested findings in a botched investigation. And then routinely dismissing contest over the facts. This is abuse for sure. There are a few ways we can handle this situation. First of all, this is not a "case closed" terror attack and nor should it be treated as such here. The simplest way to treat it is to specify who said what and what finding did they state. Remember that facts are in part verifiable; not just "consensus." There are many methods employed to arrive at fact, and then when the dust settles there will be consensus. It wasn't easy to prove the world was round, but we arrived at the fact eventually. What the editors are doing in here has all been done before and will continue to the end of time because people fear what they don't understand and they get angry when they find out Santa Clause is not real. Basic human nature. That is why we strive so hard to keep this all to the facts. Belief is something that can be manipulated, used to serve a purpose, forge an agenda and ultimately will be challenged because belief is not fact. I don't really care about what people believe. Nor do I care about their opinions. What I care about here is fact. As for the discrediting campaign, that is a classic tactic to silence questions and send findings into obscurity, only later to be found and proven correct. Effort should be made to preserve the questioners and their findings.
Finally, I would also suggest renaming the section titled "Conspiracy Theories." There really is no question or contest that people conspired. The section would be better served if it were titled "Challenges to Findings," or "Ongoing Investigation," or even "NIST Report Fails." The section also lacks in a wealth of facts and is very biased, as is the entire article. This article is a good example of an editor with beliefs and an agenda and an open disregard for facts. I find the bias here shameful. Not just in this section, but throughout. Furthermore, propaganda should always be challenged, exposed and questioned. There will be no home for propaganda in the wikiworld. There are plenty of outlets for it on the internet, on television, on the radio and in print. If an item of any kind comes to light as an item of propaganda it should be immediately removed. From this and every article. Venus III ( talk) 14:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
"Conspiracy theories Main article: 9/11 conspiracy theories
Some people question the official version of the bombings, the motivations behind them, and the parties involved, and have engaged in further investigation. Most of the alternative theories see the bombings as a casus belli through a false flag to bring about increased militarization and police power. Participants in the 9/11 Truth movement have been called "truthers." Should read and I propose "Thousands of professionals and citizens have come together with questions regarding various aspects of the investigation. Groups such as Architects and engineers for 9/11 truth along with Firefighters for 9/11 truth; are searching for answers. www.ae911truth.org and www.firefightersfor911truth.org."
Proponents of 9/11 conspiracy theories have suggested that individuals inside the United States possessed detailed information about the attacks and deliberately chose not to prevent them, or that individuals outside of al-Qaeda planned, carried out, or assisted in the attacks. Some conspiracy theorists claim the World Trade Center did not collapse because of the crashing planes but was demolished with explosives.[197][unreliable source?] Should read and I propose: "Scientists, firefighters, scholars and citizens alike are concerned by the failure of investigators to follow simple rules, such as the National Fire Protection Association NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations. http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=921&cookie_test=1."
This controlled demolition hypothesis is rejected by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and by the American Society of Civil Engineers, who, after their research, both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Towers.[198][199][200]" I propose to add: "Architects and engineers are calling for a grand jury investigation into Sunders and Gross failure to follow regulation with regard to testing for accelerants, among other things. NIST denies the existence of molten metal even though we have video and photographic evidence suggesting otherwise." http://www.nj.com/weird/
Thanks for your consideration in adding these proposed changes. I think it will improve the article greatly. I can provide more reference material as well if needed. Sincerely, Venus III ( talk) 21:48, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
AP News Article: http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-democrat/index.ssf/2010/02/raritan_twp_man_involvled_in_g.html Venus III ( talk) 23:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
WP:UNDUE The majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader may understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding parts of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. Venus III ( talk) 23:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a primary source. Its inclusion in any section would require a violation of WP:SYNTH. The researchers themselves draw no conclusions other than observing the discovery of a particular chemical compound. Rklawton ( talk) 21:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I tagged the following paragraph as a WP:COATRACK:
The paragraph is about the politicization of American art, not memorials to the 9/11 attack. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 19:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
So, let's sort out who stands where:
Ok, what is this 'Truth About 9/11 Conspiracy Theories'?
'The underlying factors likely have more to do with psychology. Indeed, it is often said that conspiracy theories are born out of a sense of powerlessness. In the wake of Sept. 11 and the emergence of the nihilistic threat of Islamic terrorism, feelings of impotence and vulnerability were all too natural. All Americans were affected by such fears. But instead of facing the daunting truth, the Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists chose the path of denial.'
Sense of powerlessness? Nihilistic threat?! Daunting truth?!! Path of denial?!!! : O
These are some striking, striking facts, and, as a bonus, it also speaks about 'familiar demons' and 'never mind' too, bravo. We're degrading this project quite rapidly here, eh? Praxidikai ( talk) 03:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Praxidikai is attempting to disrupt the article again by removing a valid source which outlines the various "truther" theories - with sources. Since I've been editing this article, even though it's to undo vandalism and the work of conspiracy theories, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to simply indef block this special purpose account. However, if there is a consensus, I'll bring the matter up to AN/I for resolution. I feel that Praxidikai's activities are oriented toward disruption rather than contribution, and that the editor is an obvious special purpose account with editing knowledge indicative of prior editing experience under a different name. Thoughts? Rklawton ( talk) 14:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
According to CNN [15], the Iranian president has said that 9/11 was a staged attack by the United States. In order to give pre-text to several middle eastern wars. This is a rather notable development and should be included somewheres on this site. -- Kuzwa ( talk) 18:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Conspiracies schmucksracies, how about we simply reference it and say it as reliable sources? Without defamation, is that possibly possible? Can we do that here? What exactly are we doing here? AFP, AP, Reuters... Praxidikai ( talk) 22:46, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
How is he relevant to the subject? He has no special knowledge of the event and has no technical or academic insights. RxS ( talk) 23:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Say, 'Saren', why have you closed this discussion so abruptly? Enforcement of POV by a notorious group of editors is not a consensus. You've ignored our norms and practices and misused your privileges. Praxidikai ( talk) 17:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)