![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
It is not inaccurate or misleading in any way to characterize the FBI's hypothesis as to what occured during the World Trade Center demolition as "conspiarcy theory". If you object to the term "conspiracy theory," I can only assume this is because you perceive that characterizing something as "conspiracy theory" casts it in a tainted light. Is this the case? Was not the World Trade Center demolition a conspiracy? Does not the FBI offer a theory about the World Trade Center demolition? Is this conspiracy theory offered by the FBI verified or falsified by observable evdience? Granted, calling it a theory is overstating the case, since they have no evidence. Until they find some evidence to support their absurd notions, they should actulaly be called conspiracy "hypotheses". - Plautus satire 17:40, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The FBI spells the man's name "Usama" [1] so I feel it is inappropriate to spell it "Osama". - Plautus satire 18:29, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The USDOJ spells the organization's name "Al Qaeda" [2] so I feel it is inappropriate to spell it "Al-Qaida". - Plautus satire 18:37, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The above changes are still unaddressed, yet two reversions of these changes have now taken place. If it happens again perhaps it's time to seek arbitrationmediation. -
Plautus satire 01:00, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
For the reasons I have noted above, and quoted and cited below, I intend to fix the spelling errors with regards to the numerous misspellings of Usama in this entry. These misspellings (Osama) do not accord with accepted transliteration principles as outlined in the only demonstrated (to or by those discussing this issue) published transliteration standards for Arabic [3], [4]. In my opinion a popular mistake is not preferable to an unpopular objective fact. - Plautus satire 17:48, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Please don't. There is no such thing as a "misspelling" when transliterating from one alphabet to another. And the name as is is the most common spelling known by English speakers. RickK 04:19, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have been searching for other transliteration standards and conventions for transliterating Arabic and I have been unable to find any. After a reasonable amount of time passes, if there are no conflicting standards offered, I will again correct the numerous misspellings in this entry and any other place I can find "Osama bin Laden" in wikipedia. - Plautus satire 04:16, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(deleted misplaced discussion for placement below-- TomND 11:32, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC))
Transliteration standard from The Encyclopaedia of Islam (with minor variations).
Nowhere in this source is there anything that lends credence to transliteration of any Arabic letters to the "O" letter or sound. Minor changes from The Encyclopaedia of Islam are noted below:
The differences between the system of transliteration of the Encyclopaedia of Islam and the system used here, are mainly due to the complex interaction of the database with the html-script. The differences can be summerized as follows:
Qalam: A Convention for Morphological Arabic-Latin-Arabic Transliteration in plain text format.
Nowhere in this source is there anything that lends credence to transliteration of any Arabic letters to the "O" letter or sound. The conventions are listed in plain text format and no appearance of the letter "O" or mention of the "O" sound is made.
Whether "Osama bin Laden" is a "misspelling" or not, it's the name that, at least, most Americans will recognize, and it's the name that they're going to look for. The Wikipedia policy of use most common names should apply. RickK 23:54, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, the policy applies to article titles. Furthermore, there really are very few policies -- most policies are simply pages and "votes" which more aggressive users have created. Lirath Q. Pynnor
(moved here from section below) (more moving of plautus satire's comments around, silsor can you come and reversion this so my comments are not context-challenged?) - Plautus satire 16:25, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I see, so you are suggesting that the style sheet be abandoned specifically in the case of bin Laden, since Norm Goldstein is not going to ask bin Laden how he wants his own name spelled. Thank you for demonstrating your (and Mr. Goldstein's) prejudice on this issue. I see when prejudice is popular enough it is justifiable in your mind. Thank you again for making your position on this matter crystal clear. I still maintain that the AP should follow the guidelines of its own style sheet, regardless of the personal feelings of Mr. Goldstein. - Plautus satire 19:19, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
" I realize your seething ocean of boiling and roiling self-conflicting prejudice"... I mean really, is your constant abuse necessary? Do you need to ask why everybody here "persecutes" you? I try to debate this like an adult and you try to turn it into a flame-fest. Sorry, I'm not biting. Grow up.-- TomND 00:46, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I am prepared to admit I misspoke when I said that the FBI does not use "Osama" and "Usama" variably. I must admit I was attempting to appeal to authority on this one, as everyone else is also doing. I thought the FBI would lend credibility to my claims. Clearly by citing the FBI as a source I have set myself up for ridicule. I withdraw my claim that the FBI never spelled it "Osama," they spell it both ways. One way accords with known, published standards and conventions for transliteration, the other does not. - Plautus satire 18:05, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's not a misspelling! There is no standard. End of story. WhisperToMe 00:13, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I suggest that this entry contains so many factual and thematic errors that it needs to be re-written from the ground up. The piecework is just making a huge mess of an already messy entry. - Plautus satire 18:39, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Is there anyone willing to put in the time and completely re-work this entry? I feel it is much too noisy and contains way too many factual and thematic errors to make it of any use except as a smear piece on Usama bin Laden. There are numerous references to bin Laden in this piece and yet no evidence has ever surfaced that implicates bin Laden in any way. All of the videotapes where bin Laden "confesses" are in dispute, and it seems only "official" DoD translations arrive at the conclusion that bin Laden had foreknowlege. But then what is the English-speaking world to believe? The DoD or habbala-jabbala-mamba-jahambo? The only alternative I see to a complete re-write of this entry is the continued war of attrition for insertion of factual data that overturns the fables. - Plautus satire 05:57, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
You should take this to mean I desire a reworking of this entry as I feel it has too many errors for piecework correction to be effective in a human lifetime. Would you care to discuss ways the page can be torn down and rebuilt so it contains more factual data and less wild speculation? - Plautus satire 06:46, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
News Flash. Plautus announced here that he has quit wikipedia. It's sad that it came to this. But hopefully a bit of sanity will return on this page as well as a few others he's been involved with. Arno 07:46, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
It is not inaccurate or misleading in any way to characterize the FBI's hypothesis as to what occured during the World Trade Center demolition as "conspiarcy theory". If you object to the term "conspiracy theory," I can only assume this is because you perceive that characterizing something as "conspiracy theory" casts it in a tainted light. Is this the case? Was not the World Trade Center demolition a conspiracy? Does not the FBI offer a theory about the World Trade Center demolition? Is this conspiracy theory offered by the FBI verified or falsified by observable evdience? Granted, calling it a theory is overstating the case, since they have no evidence. Until they find some evidence to support their absurd notions, they should actulaly be called conspiracy "hypotheses". - Plautus satire 17:40, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The FBI spells the man's name "Usama" [1] so I feel it is inappropriate to spell it "Osama". - Plautus satire 18:29, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The USDOJ spells the organization's name "Al Qaeda" [2] so I feel it is inappropriate to spell it "Al-Qaida". - Plautus satire 18:37, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The above changes are still unaddressed, yet two reversions of these changes have now taken place. If it happens again perhaps it's time to seek arbitrationmediation. -
Plautus satire 01:00, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
For the reasons I have noted above, and quoted and cited below, I intend to fix the spelling errors with regards to the numerous misspellings of Usama in this entry. These misspellings (Osama) do not accord with accepted transliteration principles as outlined in the only demonstrated (to or by those discussing this issue) published transliteration standards for Arabic [3], [4]. In my opinion a popular mistake is not preferable to an unpopular objective fact. - Plautus satire 17:48, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Please don't. There is no such thing as a "misspelling" when transliterating from one alphabet to another. And the name as is is the most common spelling known by English speakers. RickK 04:19, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I have been searching for other transliteration standards and conventions for transliterating Arabic and I have been unable to find any. After a reasonable amount of time passes, if there are no conflicting standards offered, I will again correct the numerous misspellings in this entry and any other place I can find "Osama bin Laden" in wikipedia. - Plautus satire 04:16, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(deleted misplaced discussion for placement below-- TomND 11:32, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC))
Transliteration standard from The Encyclopaedia of Islam (with minor variations).
Nowhere in this source is there anything that lends credence to transliteration of any Arabic letters to the "O" letter or sound. Minor changes from The Encyclopaedia of Islam are noted below:
The differences between the system of transliteration of the Encyclopaedia of Islam and the system used here, are mainly due to the complex interaction of the database with the html-script. The differences can be summerized as follows:
Qalam: A Convention for Morphological Arabic-Latin-Arabic Transliteration in plain text format.
Nowhere in this source is there anything that lends credence to transliteration of any Arabic letters to the "O" letter or sound. The conventions are listed in plain text format and no appearance of the letter "O" or mention of the "O" sound is made.
Whether "Osama bin Laden" is a "misspelling" or not, it's the name that, at least, most Americans will recognize, and it's the name that they're going to look for. The Wikipedia policy of use most common names should apply. RickK 23:54, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, the policy applies to article titles. Furthermore, there really are very few policies -- most policies are simply pages and "votes" which more aggressive users have created. Lirath Q. Pynnor
(moved here from section below) (more moving of plautus satire's comments around, silsor can you come and reversion this so my comments are not context-challenged?) - Plautus satire 16:25, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I see, so you are suggesting that the style sheet be abandoned specifically in the case of bin Laden, since Norm Goldstein is not going to ask bin Laden how he wants his own name spelled. Thank you for demonstrating your (and Mr. Goldstein's) prejudice on this issue. I see when prejudice is popular enough it is justifiable in your mind. Thank you again for making your position on this matter crystal clear. I still maintain that the AP should follow the guidelines of its own style sheet, regardless of the personal feelings of Mr. Goldstein. - Plautus satire 19:19, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
" I realize your seething ocean of boiling and roiling self-conflicting prejudice"... I mean really, is your constant abuse necessary? Do you need to ask why everybody here "persecutes" you? I try to debate this like an adult and you try to turn it into a flame-fest. Sorry, I'm not biting. Grow up.-- TomND 00:46, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I am prepared to admit I misspoke when I said that the FBI does not use "Osama" and "Usama" variably. I must admit I was attempting to appeal to authority on this one, as everyone else is also doing. I thought the FBI would lend credibility to my claims. Clearly by citing the FBI as a source I have set myself up for ridicule. I withdraw my claim that the FBI never spelled it "Osama," they spell it both ways. One way accords with known, published standards and conventions for transliteration, the other does not. - Plautus satire 18:05, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's not a misspelling! There is no standard. End of story. WhisperToMe 00:13, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I suggest that this entry contains so many factual and thematic errors that it needs to be re-written from the ground up. The piecework is just making a huge mess of an already messy entry. - Plautus satire 18:39, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Is there anyone willing to put in the time and completely re-work this entry? I feel it is much too noisy and contains way too many factual and thematic errors to make it of any use except as a smear piece on Usama bin Laden. There are numerous references to bin Laden in this piece and yet no evidence has ever surfaced that implicates bin Laden in any way. All of the videotapes where bin Laden "confesses" are in dispute, and it seems only "official" DoD translations arrive at the conclusion that bin Laden had foreknowlege. But then what is the English-speaking world to believe? The DoD or habbala-jabbala-mamba-jahambo? The only alternative I see to a complete re-write of this entry is the continued war of attrition for insertion of factual data that overturns the fables. - Plautus satire 05:57, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
You should take this to mean I desire a reworking of this entry as I feel it has too many errors for piecework correction to be effective in a human lifetime. Would you care to discuss ways the page can be torn down and rebuilt so it contains more factual data and less wild speculation? - Plautus satire 06:46, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
News Flash. Plautus announced here that he has quit wikipedia. It's sad that it came to this. But hopefully a bit of sanity will return on this page as well as a few others he's been involved with. Arno 07:46, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)