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Right now, the article reflects the opinion of an estimated 2/3 majority of Americans, that Al Qaeda did not get any inside help. Personally, I feel this opinion leaves out some important questions to ask, such as: why would George W. Bush not testify under oath, why not without Cheney present; how could Al Qaeda evade NORAD intercepts for 80 minutes? Any American wishing to avoid a similar tragedy should be wanting to ask these questions. Wikipedia is *not* the one to ask them. But we should not bury the facts leading to such questions under a Minitrue version of reality, either. So let's agree to disagree, and at least put the { { neutral } } flag up. Then, we can make the article NPOV and telling the tale of more sides than one. Wikipedia is not censorship. WP:NOT#CENSOR — Xiutwel (talk) 12:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The use of the words 'mainstream' and 'fringe' to describe the complete set of people with opinions on how the history of 9-11 should be written is misleading, biased and in my opinion, politically motivated. 'Mainstream' refers to a large majority of people; 'fringe' refers to a small minority of people whose beliefs are unsound and unpopular. 'Fringe' is a loaded term when compared to 'mainstream'. Considering the vast history of naive, misinformed, ignorant and malevolent mainstream opinions, an accurate history should not give weight to mainstream opinion of non-experts. 95% of people believing one thing or the other has absolutely no impact on what has happened in the past. It does have a major impact on what happens in the future, which is why these opinions become so politicized. This article on 9-11 gives all of it's faith to the 9-11 commission and none to the multitude of members of the CIA, NSA, FBI, Congress, US Military, and many other experts with detailed sources, information and experience who disagree with the 'mainstream' opinion. Another major problem with this article and discussion is the leaning towards the opinion that anyone who disagrees with a single finding of the 9-11 commission is someone who believes that the WTC were bombed with planted explosives and that the Bush administration masterminded the entire operation. This is a very convenient assumption for someone who is convinced that their 'mainstream' history is the factual history. This attitude prevents any serious discussion or history but it does insure the tranquility and wholeheartedness of one's political beliefs, regardless of the facts. The 9-11 article is biased, disingenuous, and falls almost completely short of a broad and academic history of this enormous event. So much information is missing that the only conclusion one can make after reading this article is that Wikipedia's editors are scared that their world is not as simple as they want it to be. There is no grand conspiracy-theory that explains 9-11, whether the theory is that Osama bin Laden is responsible or George Bush.----profg 15:07, 6 August 2007
Popular Mechanics is owned by Hearst Communications (one of Americas largest Media corporations) and should definitely not be considered as a foundation for disproving or proving any facts re: the Sept 11th attacks. Now, finally that people are finally starting to truly question this administration's motives for getting into Iraq, more and more people are doing the investigation that they were too afraid to do. To many, such a possibility, that our own government would do something was hard to conceive without giving up many previous beliefs. But as time goes by, and more facts come out, and more lies are proven as such, the American People are starting to come together against this regime. If you interested in learning more, there are websites such as PatriotsQuestion911.com *
[1] that have hundred of accounts told by well respected professions re: how the governments account of 911 does not add up. The are professors, pilots, engineers, doctors, and scientists, who are willing to put their careers on the line in order to get the truth out there. Read the articles and do the research and decide for yourself. But don't just repeat a sound bite the government released in a press release out of laziness. Thats what they want you to do. Instead, do the research from non-biased sources, and then decide. No matter what you believe currently, you can not deny that the government did not tell us the whole truth. That is fact. The real question is why. I am a patriotic American, and I fully support our troops. However, I do not support the death of any American for a war based on lies and greed, hidden under the veil of "a war on terror." For further research, I have 2 words for you to look up: Project Northwoods.
TheAverageAmerican 18:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
No proof exists that the trade center was destroyed by Islamic extremists, I've heard other versions of the story all supplying limited evidence just like the official story. Some people I know even think it was the Bush administration itself that coordinated the attacks. The first paragraph of this article states that the WTC was destroyed by terrorists which is not necesarily true.-- Dominik92 03:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Since we seem to field the same questions over, and over, again (and the archives are getting huge) it might be a sensible idea to write a FAQ for this page, like the one at Talk:Evolution. Anyone agree? -- Haemo 21:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I think a FAQ is basically a good idea, but it will be just as contentious as the article itsself, and that would not be helping. In stead of writing an "encyclopedic" FAQ I would recommend just quoting the main/best arguments from either side, referencing these to the archives, and giving the outcome of the debate. Sadly, there seldom was any consensus; the minority just had to walk out and since then the quality of the article seems to be deteriorating, getting more POV by the month.— Xiutwel (talk) 11:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
According to the US government, there is clear and irrefutable evidence to link Al Qaeda and bin laden to the semptember 11 attacks, but there doesn't seem to be an explanation for why he hasn't been indited for his involvement, despite his common perception as the head master of the event, and even so-called confession tapes of him decribing his involvement.
The article says little about the why this is so, and it seems to only leave the door open for conspiracy theories,especially when bin laden initially denied involvement. Rodrigue 17:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, not that I believe in any this, but one could argue that the point was just to make him a despised and hated man in the western world,because commonly, people say the government would perpetrate the attacks so people would support an invasion of middle eastern countries ( Afghanistan and Iraq) as retaliation for what happened.
And I don't know about the FBI wanting to wait until he is caught, since he was charged with two separate offenses in 1998 with ought his capture, according to his main page in wikipedia. Rodrigue 18:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
So the suggested evidence is that the US government behaved differently when Bill Clinton was president than when George Bush was president? That alone proves a conspiracy for some people? Wow. Just... wow. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.95.27.5 ( talk)
The fact remains that the current version of the Wikipedia article reads: ... In November 2001, U.S. forces recovered a videotape from a destroyed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, in which Osama bin Laden is talking to Khaled al-Harbi. In the tape, bin Laden admits foreknowledge of the attacks.[77] .... That is a blatant falsehood. First of all, Osama bin Laden does not appear in this video tape. The imposter on the tape is wearing the same kind of hat Osama wears in other videos. However, Osama has a convex "semitic" nose, whereas the imposter has a turned-up nose. The hair color at the top of the beard, under the lower lip, is a different color from Osama's. Osama's beard hair is relatively straight. The imposter's is kinky. Osama has a pattern of baldness around the corners of his mouth, but the imposter's beard goes straight across. Osama has an irregular patch of gray/white hair in the center of the beard, just above the chin. The imposter's beard --- and this is most telling -- has obviously been bleached in a thorough, symmetrical manner in this same area in a deliberate attempt to make this actor resemble Osama from a distance. NOT ONLY THAT, but various experts have attacked the audio content of the tape. According to someone who had translated authentic Osama tapes, the voice on the tape is not Osama's, the objections Osama raises concerning American actions in the middle East are missing and the rhetoric the speaker uses is completely dissimilar to Osama's. Additionally, according to various experts, the official U.S. government translation of the tape takes unacceptable liberties. A word is added to one sentence to suggest foreknowledge of the attacks, and an entire sentence is also added. Although the text was obviously written by American agents, they did such a sloppy job of it that it doesn't even CONTAIN a confession. It was obviously not FOUND in Afghanistan by Americans, but PLANTED there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wowest ( talk • contribs) 03:40, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
Does anyone know if there were people on the observation deck at the time?
I would like to avoid such reactions (above) to our article, and am proposing we make it more balanced, as we will not agree on the final truth. — Xiutwel (talk) 12:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
A lot of wikipedians above are, unawares, violating the Neutral Point of View consensus directive. I quote from it:
One can do so: As "conspiracy views" on 911 have been repeatedly uttered, and never revoked, by former Ministers of Britain and Germany — both economic superpowers — Michael Meacher and Andreas von Bülow, I do not feel it is fair to refer to such theories as 'fringe'. They may be wrong, but they are not fringe.
As I assume there is about a 1/3 - 2/3 distribution on critics versus believers in the official version which is currently portrayed in the article, I propose we will agree to adopt a 20-80 percentage for giving weight WP:NPOV#Undue weight to facts and views regarding this debate, hoping to reach consensus on this; and change the article accordingly. — Xiutwel (talk) 12:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is a list of 149 professional architects and structural engineers who dispute the Official Bush Regime Conspiracy Theory:
Wowest 05:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
O.K. HERE is a list including
110+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement,
and Government Officials
190+ Engineers and Architects 50+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals 150+ Professors Question 9/11 180+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members 90+ Entertainment and Media Professionals
There is probably some overlap with the other list in the Engineer and Architect section. Of course, many people in all of these categories haven't given it a thought. They just believed what Corporate Mainstream Media broadcast. This is no "fringe" phenomenon.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Wowest 05:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
According to CIA/FBI there would not be enough evidence to hold up a court case against Osama Bin Laden and the other hijackers.
The alledged confession videos were proven outright fakes, the guy in the videos didn't look anything like Osama, he wore a ring on the wrong finger and wrote with his other hand, did I forget to mention that the real Osama denied his involvement... -- otester ( talk) 11:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
It must be very frustrating for them to see even wikipedia distorting the facts.
"Various conspiracy theories have emerged as a reaction to the attacks suggesting that individuals outside of the terrorist organization Al Qaeda knew of, planned, or carried out the attacks.[121] These theories are not accepted as credible by mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders, who have concluded that responsibility for the attacks and the resulting destruction rests with Al Qaeda.[122][123]"
[122] is the Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE. [123] itself refers only to the American Institute of Steel Construction’s Manual of Steel Construction, a report from F.E.M.A. (an agency of the United States government), and the proceedings of the 1986 Canadian Structural Engineering Conference.
So the article’s verification that conspiracy theories are not accepted as credible by mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders is based on three purely architectural sources and a report from the government against which the accusations are being made. This to me is inadequate.
Also, the word "mainstream" is highly subjective. A gx7 04:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Just because Dan Rather said it looked like controlled demolition doesn't mean it was. Selective sourcing to support a dubious line of reasoning.-- MONGO 21:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
My point was the word "mainstream" in this context is a generalisation. Not 'every mainstream journalist and scientist considers conspiracy incredible, as the article currently claims. Why don't we say "Conspiracy theories are a marginal viewpoint in the mainstream media at best, the majority of which report the idea as incredible."? A gx7 02:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll try to use the Socratic Method here:
CBC Newsworld gave a report that supported the idea of conspiracy (the video is here: YouTube). Are CBC mainstream? If anyone thinks they're not, I would argue that they're using a definitional dodge (salvaging the argument by changing the meaning of the word) to change the criteria of "mainstream" so that mainstream reporters have to be on the side that says conspiracy as impossible.
Because unless all mainstream programs report conspiracy as impossible, then we have to use words like "generally" or "the majority". A gx7 02:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The section labeled "Conspiracy Theories" is pejorative, and should be labeled "Alternative Theories" or something neutral. The Watergate cover up was once considered a "conspiracy theory" and turned out to be true. The sentence starting with "These theories..." is not specific enough. What theories? Scientists may agree with some of the theories but not others. The statement "virtually all" means almost 100%, which is not supported by any statistical reference. Just Google or YouTube on 911 conspiracies and you will find plenty of journalists and scientists proposing alternative theories to the story proposed by the 911 Commission. The term "mainstream" is changing. More and more people get their news from Wikipedia, Google, Yahoo, YouTube, and other online sources. The statement above is a commentary on the information included in Wikipedia, not information itself. If we cannot decide what to say about "these theories" then this sentence should be left out. This will be in keeping with the Wikipedia goal of objectivity and neutrality in conveying information. let people decide for themselves if alternative theories make logical sense, without coloring them in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.55.221.7 ( talk) 23:56, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
If there is to be a link to the "Investigate 9/11" website, it should not be the first item, but put together with all the other links at the bottom. 213.115.59.220 11:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
"Such theories"? "Undue weight"? The problem is here the ignorance of you and people like you. This Wikipedia article is substantially false, the conspiracy "theory" is the provable truth. Bofors7715 05:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I was seeing things or not... but just in case be on the lookout for a refrence named watson. Somehow it got stuck into the article for a few minutes, then vanished as I was trying to hunt it down. It links to a typical "Question 9/11" webpage. Clearly the act of a desperate troll... -- Tarage 13:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I've re-written the memorials section, since it seemed a bit lacking. It can be more thouroughly sourced, and I intended to do that at a later date, but I don't believe any of the information is contentious. I would, however, like to talk about how to improve it. We have two options for the "Tribute in Light" picture, A or B. Personally, I like B, but it seems a lot of people like A more. We also definitely need another image; there were two other ones, which I removed - the first, because the World Trade Center Cross is not a memorial, and the second because it was too large. The America's Heroes Memorial might be a good choice, but I'm open to other options too. -- Haemo 06:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Remember, let time talk to us, well greetings, and happy editing John Manuel-14:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
PD if you think were so much photos, why, then, you took out that photo and added other photo? It doesn't make sense. Does it? Consensus is hard it seems John Manuel- 72.229.114.226 01:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The "Tribute in Light" picture is mentioned in the text, as is the Flight 93 memorial. I think it would be nice to have more about the temporary memorials, but not on this page. The sub-article seems the ideal place to mention these and at the moment it does not go into much detail on the temporary memorials like the one you have photographed. Perhaps you could write a paragraph on that page about these and include your photo on there as an example of one? Corleonebrother 21:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is about the attacks themselves, not the memorials erected afterwards. In fact, some of this article should probably be moved to subarticles to new "daughter articles" and linked back to here to keep this main article focused. While I like image "B" above, it isn't really a big deal which image is used overall. Galleries and images as well as discussion regarding permanent and temporary memorials erected should be at the September 11, 2001 attack memorials and services article.-- MONGO 21:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Some comments above come across to me as incivil, which we try to avoid. Normally, I don't respond to such comments, but understand this article covers an emotional topic and can forgive such comments. I'm also pleased to be discussing improvements to the article, and pleased that the section fully referenced now. Though, per WP:SUMMARY, I think it can be shortened with some details more suitable for the subarticle. I usually find it easier to summarize the main article, based on a good subarticle. In this case, the subarticle is in dire need of attention of someone with time to fix it up (not me, I won't have the time in the next weeks). Also, I think one picture (or possibly/at most two) will suffice. My pictures don't need to be there, but whatever pictures are included should match what's discussed in the text. -- Aude ( talk) 23:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I have tried summarizing the section. You can see the sizes on the history tab. The page was 116,727 bytes before any of my edits. Removing the images brought the size down to 116,393 bytes and my copyedits have the article down to 115,593 bytes in size. A large portion of the bytes are due to all the references, which we can't worry about. But efforts to summarize sections, such as this section are helpful. See WP:SIZE for more about article size and WP:SUMMARY. -- Aude ( talk) 00:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I recently re-wrote the "motive" section of the article, because it had turned into a poorly sourced, and poorly formatted quote farm. I tried to synthesize most of the material together into some section, and trimmed about 1k worth of text. However, I am a little worried that we might be giving too much weight to the opinions of certain authors -- I would prefer more general sources for the section.
For instance, I recall reading, in Harper's (I believe), an article that made the same point as the last line; that of the "mythic" quality that Bin Laden ascribes to the attacks. I would love to use that as a source, instead of the marginally notable author used -- however, I can't find the article. I would like to do the same for some of the other sections, as well. Can anyone help out? Does anyone object to any of the sources currently used? -- Haemo 22:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Haemo, you claim it was "poorly sourced", that simply isn't true, I know I had sourced much of it when several months ago people wanted sources. The edit has been in place for MONTHS. Along you come and remove from the motives section the testimony were the vice-Chairman point blank asks what the motive was (the only time it was asked in the 9/11 hearings) and an FBI Special Agent gives him the answer. And you don't think there is something wrong with that? You also removed the statement from the Former in Laden Unit Chief calling Clinton and Bush liars. Your edit is from yesterday, the edit I am returning to was there for MONTHS. You are removing KEY facts from FBI and CIA agents and you are obscuring the motive in the motive section. Tel555 01:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald answered, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States."
The fatwa also specifically condemns the U.S. for "plundering" the resources of the region, oppressing the people by supporting abusive regimes in the region, and dictating policy to legitimate leaders. ... By a similar token, it decries the continued refusal to address the "occupation of Palestine". The same motivation was shared by the two pilots who flew into the WTC: Mohamed Atta was described by Ralph Bodenstein—who traveled, worked and talked with him—as "most imbued actually about... U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region." "When someone asked why he and Atta never laughed, Shehhi retorted,"How can you laugh when people are dying in Palestine?"[41] Abdulaziz al-Omari, a hijacker aboard Flight 11 with Mohammed Atta, said in his video will, "My work is a message those who heard me and to all those who saw me at the same time it is a message to the infidels that you should leave the Arabian peninsula defeated and stop giving a hand of help to the coward Jews in Palestine."
As you can see, it was removed because it was redundant, not because of poor sourcing, or whatever. -- Haemo 01:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Haemo, I read what you wrote and I know what you removed. It is CLEAR what you are doing. It is not "redundant." The public deserves to know what AN FBI SPECIAL AGENT SAYS, it doesn't matter if terrorists were quotes, the public should know that the question of motivation was asked in the 9/11 Commission hearings and that an FBI agent gave the answer. ALSO, it is VERY important for people to know that the CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief calls Bush and Clinton LAIRS. You edited that out! Come on man, you think I don't know what you are doing? I have been fighting this fight for years. And you are not being honest, you wrote "poorly sourced" which isn't true. Now you deny that you wrote that? Tel555 01:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the edit that has been there for months:
President Bush says, "They hate ... a democratically elected government. ... They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other." (President George W. Bush) Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People Bin Laden says the White House is "hiding the Truth ... the reality is that we are striking them because of their evil and injustice in the whole of the Islamic World, especially in Iraq and Palestine and their occupation of the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries (Arabian Peninsula)." [1]
Former CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief Michael Scheuer has bluntly stated that politicians are lying to the American people about the terrorists' motives, "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people. We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live. And there's a huge burden of guilt to be laid at Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton, both parties for simply lying to the American people." Lou Dobbs CNN
During the 9/11 Commission hearings, Vice Chair Lee Hamilton asked, "What motivated them to do it?" FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald answered, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States." 9/11 Commission testimony June 16, 2004
Jason Burke, author of Al-Qaeda: The True Story of Radical Islam, makes the point that, "Bin Laden is an activist with a very clear sense of what he wants and how he hopes to achieve it. Those means may be far outside the norms of political activity as we usually understand it, but his agenda is a basically political one, though it is couched, of course, in religious language and imagery." He says bin Laden's aim is "to end the repression of the Islamic world by the hypocrite governments and the 'Crusader-Zionist' alliance supporting and manipulating them." [2]
Counter-terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke, says to understand why America was targeted we need to remember foreign policies of the last 25 years. Policies of "confronting Moscow in Afghanistan, inserting the U.S. military in the Persian Gulf," and "strengthening Israel as a base for a southern flank against the Soviets." [3]
THAT is all well wrirten and sourced! You claim (see above): "I recently re-wrote the "motive" section of the article, because it had turned into a poorly sourced, and poorly formatted quote farm." and that simply isn't true.
Tel555 01:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The article presents as fact numerous presumptions which have not been proven and as such they simply might not be true. In short, from the missing Boeing 757 at the Pentagon to the blantant demolition of the WTC Building 7, the story presented in the article here is overtly biased.
This article violates the NPOV, it fails to "represent[] fairly and without bias all significant views" of people speaking up here and numerous authorities on 9/11, many of whom hold credentials which make them "reliable sources". Bofors7715 03:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Are there any security cameras around Pentagon, can someone post a video or a picture of a plane hiting the Pentagon building? Mkashifafzal 11:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Why doesn't this article mention the five Israelis who were detained by authorities when caught filming (and celebrating) the planes crashing into the towers? Instead, this is only mentioned on the "conspracy theories" page. It really happened - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/11/SundayHerald_021103.html It is an important part of the events that occurred on September 11, and raises many questions about who was involved, and who had prior knowledge. Logicman1966 04:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
You would also need to be able to prove *why* they were smiling. Agents working for Mossad could've been happy that the US would, after the attack, be much more willing to help them find and fight Islamic terrorists than they had been under the first nine months of Bush. Even assuming everything you said is true, none of it comes close to proving they had any connection to the attack. 64.95.27.5 22:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)sean
Mossad is quite a serious outfit. I don't think they would be so stupid to get caught doing something like this...tiresome to the extreme. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.129.249.240 ( talk) 12:07, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
How many Wikipedia editors here think 9/11 was an inside job? If so, why are we using the mainstream theory, which nobody believes anymore? Come on guys, we all know that Cheney gave the stand-down orders for NORAD. This article needs some serious revision.
Here is what i suggest for it "The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks by terrorist[2], suspected by US Government as Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America." Is it OK.
Here's a reply I've been working on for questions and suggestions of this nature:
Another common question that is asked about the article is why certain theories are not mentioned, or why the manner in which the article is written uses definite language (i.e. "is" instead of "presumably is", "were" instead of "believed to be", etc.). This is rooted in our neutral point of view policy — specifically, in the idea that while we are bound to explain information fairly, and neutrally, and the amount of space, text, and context, devoted to any particular view needs to be weighted by how much credence qualified, reliable sources give them. This is especially critical when we are talking about pages which discuss a general topic, like this one, and are segmented into subpages.
An understanding of what this entails is rooted in summary style — that is, a Wikipedia article is composed of sections, which are in turn pages as they expand and grow. Any given fact, opinion, or viewpoint has a "size" or degree of scope based on its coverage and acceptance in reliable sources who are generally accepted to be qualified about the subject. For example, the flight number of the plane which struck the South Tower (175) is a very important, and relevant fact to an article about the attacks. However, the original pilot of Flight 175 (Victor Saracini) is not that relevant — so, he does not appear on the 9/11 attacks page. However, instead he appears on United Airlines Flight 175, and further gets a whole biography on the September 11 Wiki.
This same process applies to opinions, and theories, in an analogous way. For example, there has long been theories that Adolf Hitler survived the invasion of Berlin in 1945, and fled to Argentina; there have been books on the subject, and picture purportedly of him. However, if you read the article, it doesn't mention any of these; they plainly say that Hitler and Eva Braun committed suicide in their bunker. This plain, direct, statement of fact has been disputed -- however, it does not violate neutrality guidelines to make it; rather, neutrality guidelines support it. The concept here is undue weight — that is, giving too much space, credence, or weight to viewpoints which are not accepted by reliable sources who are qualified experts on the subject. To qualify the entire article, and the entire story of Hitler's life, based on a fringe theory violates neutral point of view.
This does not, however, mean that it is always inappropriate. Continuing the Hitler example, above — although talking about the theories surrounding Hitler's death on the main article is inappropriate, there is an entire article called " Death of Adolf Hitler" which discusses the theories and speculation surrounding his death. The theory, which has not very much mainstream credence, is removed to a subpage; much like the name of the Flight 175 pilot is removed, as well.
The analogy is then clear for the 9/11 article; there are numerous theories surrounding who carried out the attacks, whether they had inside support, what planes hit which buildings, whether they were planes at all, whether the Jews had anything to do with it, whether the towers where dynamited, etc. The list is endless, and ongoing. However, the simple fact remains that an overwhelming preponderance of reliable sources, both in and outside of the government, disagree with them; they are fringe theories, in the same way that Hitler escaping his death is a fringe theory. A good way to put it is that there are many questions about the 9/11 attacks which have not been answered; however, the major narrative of the attacks is not challenged by any of the most credible question. This article follows neutral point of view and gives conspiracy theories a short section, and then an entire sub-article at 9/11 conspiracy theories. However, following undue weight guidelines this article does not compromise the overall structure of the article — in the same way Hitler doesn't talk about him as if he escaped death, this article uses definite wording, and definite phrasing to explain the view outlined and supported by reliable sources who hold expert credentials on the subject.
See if it answers your question. -- Haemo 20:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Back from wikibreaking; to follow up on: #Baseless dismissal of conspiracy, I(— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk)) would like to suggest the following:
a) (correct?) I think we are in agreement on:
b) consensus guidelines and policies are:
So, now I would like to know: how wide-spread is the view that there is something fishy with the official account? I have seen Zogby polls which suggest it's rather wide-spread:
Are there any other reliable polls available? I would like to learn more on this. I hope these polls will help us reach consensus on the amount of attention the "inside job" possibility deserves in the article. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 08:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
We'd like to add that more and more credible people are adding their names to the list of those who doubt the governments story of what happened on 911 and many of these people believe there is a good chance there was some government operation similar to Project Northwoods or the Reichstag Fire (Hitler's takeover inside job - proven!) that was planned well in advance. If you are going to counter this claim, then please at least view the sources of these claims, like airline pilots, professors, top engineers, scientists., etc. Everyone was so shocked and initially could not even believe that something like this could be possible... but the evidence keeps pointing to an inside job and now people are fed up with the war, and see the true colors of this regime. Please check the sources, such as PatriotsQuestion911.com before you make judgments on this comment. For this reason, I see others have made attempts to adjust the conspiracy page. That should be allowed. This is not right what is happening in our government, and we all will find out the truth someday and be utterly humiliated and embarrassed and sickened by it. TheAverageAmerican 04:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I quote:
So, has anyone found polls which indicate that 911 conspiracy views are NOT widespread? From the polls gathered by Corleonebrother, I would say that the mainstream account is given undue weight, compared to conspiracy theories. I would agree to not include the theories in the main article, but I would suggest (a) to use appropriate wording, making clear that it's the mainstream account, not commonly accepted, and (b) not to leave out factual material which strains the official version. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 16:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I get called a vandal for adding a link the The Complete 9/11timeline, which is a timeline with links to 3355 articles from mainstream media sites. Blah42 23:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
That is your view, which you are entitled to, but I feel that it is an important resource that links to thousands of mainstream media articles. Blah42 00:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, I see. It seems like the longer arguments were from those who wanted to include it, but the other side had more votes. All very arbitrary that the majority at one point in time gets to decide whether there should be a link. It is notable as the most complete 9/11 timeline on the web. Blah42 00:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I looked more carefully, and the straw poll is extremely biased. Wow, your side won. It obviously doesn't violate guidelines, don't try claiming that, that's utter bullshit. Blah42 00:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that anyone who feels the Complete 9-11 Timeline should not be added to the links list fails to provide any specific examples? The main argument behind why the 9-11 article is the way it is is that it has to cite from 'mainstream' sources. The Complete 9-11 Timeline is almost completely composed of mainstream media sources with links to the exact original article cited. The timeline implies 'causation relationships' [sic] which are wrong or unproven? How convenient of you not to list a single instance. Not that anyone who agrees with you ever does. Why is there not a link to George Washington University's National Security Archives? No one can claim they're 'misleading' or 'fringe'. Why is it that it's perfectly acceptable to cite information that comes from the 9-11 commission report, which has it's own share of problems, considering the fact that the most important information was censored from inclusion in the report, not to mention the exclusion, convolution or evasion of many important issues; why did it take so long to respond and why are their discrepencies in the times of events reported throughout the NORAD chain? why were multiple officers at the FBI discouraged from investigating how a known major bin laden financier and how could he own so much of PTECH, a company that deals with intelligence matters for the federal government? relation of BCCI failure to the terrorist groups that had worked closely with the CIA and the ISI? There are many other issues that need to be addressed in order to understand something like the 9-11 attacks but many are too specific or technical to include here. however you can find many of them on the complete 9-11 timeline, complete with sources cited, links to original sources which are 99% mainstream media or from George Washington University's national security archive which has credentials no one can deny considering the files they have come direct from the federal government via FOIA. Wikipedia should be ashamed of its failure to provide information that isn't influenced by political desires and 'official' or 'mainstream' urban legends. ---- profg 13:47, 7 August 2007
May I suggest adding a "See also" link to
The Terror Timeline instead?
—
Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪
(talk) 18:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
12:01, 16 August 2007 Weregerbil (Talk | contribs) (114,056 bytes) (rv, not a conspiracy article) 06:37, 10 August 2007 MONGO (Talk | contribs) (114,008 bytes) (no basis for adding this)
Hello, where is the article that the charges from this book would go to? Thanks. "In a short excerpt from his book in Sunday's Washington Post, Woodward writes: "On July 10, 2001, two months before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, then-CIA Director George J. Tenet met with his counterterrorism chief, J. Cofer Black, at CIA headquarters to review the latest on Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda terrorist organization. Black laid out the case, consisting of communications intercepts and other top-secret intelligence showing the increasing likelihood that al-Qaeda would soon attack the United States. It was a mass of fragments and dots that nonetheless made a compelling case, so compelling to Tenet that he decided he and Black should go to the White House immediately." Link Bmedley Sutler 00:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to link September 11 and 2001 in the bold part of the lead sentence? I find it makes the lead uglier without adding much.- Wafulz 18:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is there this sentence?
A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m., after being heavily damaged by debris from the Twin Towers when they fell.
Referenced with interim report about ongoing investigation? Twice? It should say that there is no official explanation about the fall of building 7 and referenced accordingly…
[ NIST Status Update on World Trade Center 7 Investigation] 78.0.67.12 00:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I am moving/have moved this entire section to Talk:Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center#Reminder/firefighter . — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 05:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm certain there's a lot of work behind it, but this article appears to be in a very poor state. Why isn’t it updated accordingly to the new or some extremely old data? I've just took a look at the some of discussions, so forgive me if you went through this already, but neither here or at the sibling articles I've found any reference or mention of that FOIA request which showed that there were no Arabs on Flight 77. How come?
I'd guess that official FOIA documents are valid references? Are they?
Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 78.0.67.12 02:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The end part of the lead section of 9/11 article says:
"Rebuilding the World Trade Center site has proven more difficult, with controversy over possible designs as well as the pace of construction. Construction delays, revised cost estimates, security concerns, and public criticism have all led to changes and delays to the final plans in rebuilding the complex to this day."
I don't think it is appropriate to mention what is written above. I've replaced it with:
"The rebuilding process has started on the World Trade Center site. In 2006 a new office tower was completed on the site of 7 World Trade Center. The Freedom Tower is currently under construction at the site and at 1,776 ft (541 m) upon completion in 2011, will become the one of the tallest buildings in North America. Three more towers are expected to be built between 2007 and 2012 on the site."
I believe it is important to mention about Freedom Tower on the lead section, and also about the recent progresses regarding the rebuilding of the World Trade Center site. AdjustShift ( talk) 20:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
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Right now, the article reflects the opinion of an estimated 2/3 majority of Americans, that Al Qaeda did not get any inside help. Personally, I feel this opinion leaves out some important questions to ask, such as: why would George W. Bush not testify under oath, why not without Cheney present; how could Al Qaeda evade NORAD intercepts for 80 minutes? Any American wishing to avoid a similar tragedy should be wanting to ask these questions. Wikipedia is *not* the one to ask them. But we should not bury the facts leading to such questions under a Minitrue version of reality, either. So let's agree to disagree, and at least put the { { neutral } } flag up. Then, we can make the article NPOV and telling the tale of more sides than one. Wikipedia is not censorship. WP:NOT#CENSOR — Xiutwel (talk) 12:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The use of the words 'mainstream' and 'fringe' to describe the complete set of people with opinions on how the history of 9-11 should be written is misleading, biased and in my opinion, politically motivated. 'Mainstream' refers to a large majority of people; 'fringe' refers to a small minority of people whose beliefs are unsound and unpopular. 'Fringe' is a loaded term when compared to 'mainstream'. Considering the vast history of naive, misinformed, ignorant and malevolent mainstream opinions, an accurate history should not give weight to mainstream opinion of non-experts. 95% of people believing one thing or the other has absolutely no impact on what has happened in the past. It does have a major impact on what happens in the future, which is why these opinions become so politicized. This article on 9-11 gives all of it's faith to the 9-11 commission and none to the multitude of members of the CIA, NSA, FBI, Congress, US Military, and many other experts with detailed sources, information and experience who disagree with the 'mainstream' opinion. Another major problem with this article and discussion is the leaning towards the opinion that anyone who disagrees with a single finding of the 9-11 commission is someone who believes that the WTC were bombed with planted explosives and that the Bush administration masterminded the entire operation. This is a very convenient assumption for someone who is convinced that their 'mainstream' history is the factual history. This attitude prevents any serious discussion or history but it does insure the tranquility and wholeheartedness of one's political beliefs, regardless of the facts. The 9-11 article is biased, disingenuous, and falls almost completely short of a broad and academic history of this enormous event. So much information is missing that the only conclusion one can make after reading this article is that Wikipedia's editors are scared that their world is not as simple as they want it to be. There is no grand conspiracy-theory that explains 9-11, whether the theory is that Osama bin Laden is responsible or George Bush.----profg 15:07, 6 August 2007
Popular Mechanics is owned by Hearst Communications (one of Americas largest Media corporations) and should definitely not be considered as a foundation for disproving or proving any facts re: the Sept 11th attacks. Now, finally that people are finally starting to truly question this administration's motives for getting into Iraq, more and more people are doing the investigation that they were too afraid to do. To many, such a possibility, that our own government would do something was hard to conceive without giving up many previous beliefs. But as time goes by, and more facts come out, and more lies are proven as such, the American People are starting to come together against this regime. If you interested in learning more, there are websites such as PatriotsQuestion911.com *
[1] that have hundred of accounts told by well respected professions re: how the governments account of 911 does not add up. The are professors, pilots, engineers, doctors, and scientists, who are willing to put their careers on the line in order to get the truth out there. Read the articles and do the research and decide for yourself. But don't just repeat a sound bite the government released in a press release out of laziness. Thats what they want you to do. Instead, do the research from non-biased sources, and then decide. No matter what you believe currently, you can not deny that the government did not tell us the whole truth. That is fact. The real question is why. I am a patriotic American, and I fully support our troops. However, I do not support the death of any American for a war based on lies and greed, hidden under the veil of "a war on terror." For further research, I have 2 words for you to look up: Project Northwoods.
TheAverageAmerican 18:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
No proof exists that the trade center was destroyed by Islamic extremists, I've heard other versions of the story all supplying limited evidence just like the official story. Some people I know even think it was the Bush administration itself that coordinated the attacks. The first paragraph of this article states that the WTC was destroyed by terrorists which is not necesarily true.-- Dominik92 03:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Since we seem to field the same questions over, and over, again (and the archives are getting huge) it might be a sensible idea to write a FAQ for this page, like the one at Talk:Evolution. Anyone agree? -- Haemo 21:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I think a FAQ is basically a good idea, but it will be just as contentious as the article itsself, and that would not be helping. In stead of writing an "encyclopedic" FAQ I would recommend just quoting the main/best arguments from either side, referencing these to the archives, and giving the outcome of the debate. Sadly, there seldom was any consensus; the minority just had to walk out and since then the quality of the article seems to be deteriorating, getting more POV by the month.— Xiutwel (talk) 11:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
According to the US government, there is clear and irrefutable evidence to link Al Qaeda and bin laden to the semptember 11 attacks, but there doesn't seem to be an explanation for why he hasn't been indited for his involvement, despite his common perception as the head master of the event, and even so-called confession tapes of him decribing his involvement.
The article says little about the why this is so, and it seems to only leave the door open for conspiracy theories,especially when bin laden initially denied involvement. Rodrigue 17:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, not that I believe in any this, but one could argue that the point was just to make him a despised and hated man in the western world,because commonly, people say the government would perpetrate the attacks so people would support an invasion of middle eastern countries ( Afghanistan and Iraq) as retaliation for what happened.
And I don't know about the FBI wanting to wait until he is caught, since he was charged with two separate offenses in 1998 with ought his capture, according to his main page in wikipedia. Rodrigue 18:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
So the suggested evidence is that the US government behaved differently when Bill Clinton was president than when George Bush was president? That alone proves a conspiracy for some people? Wow. Just... wow. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.95.27.5 ( talk)
The fact remains that the current version of the Wikipedia article reads: ... In November 2001, U.S. forces recovered a videotape from a destroyed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, in which Osama bin Laden is talking to Khaled al-Harbi. In the tape, bin Laden admits foreknowledge of the attacks.[77] .... That is a blatant falsehood. First of all, Osama bin Laden does not appear in this video tape. The imposter on the tape is wearing the same kind of hat Osama wears in other videos. However, Osama has a convex "semitic" nose, whereas the imposter has a turned-up nose. The hair color at the top of the beard, under the lower lip, is a different color from Osama's. Osama's beard hair is relatively straight. The imposter's is kinky. Osama has a pattern of baldness around the corners of his mouth, but the imposter's beard goes straight across. Osama has an irregular patch of gray/white hair in the center of the beard, just above the chin. The imposter's beard --- and this is most telling -- has obviously been bleached in a thorough, symmetrical manner in this same area in a deliberate attempt to make this actor resemble Osama from a distance. NOT ONLY THAT, but various experts have attacked the audio content of the tape. According to someone who had translated authentic Osama tapes, the voice on the tape is not Osama's, the objections Osama raises concerning American actions in the middle East are missing and the rhetoric the speaker uses is completely dissimilar to Osama's. Additionally, according to various experts, the official U.S. government translation of the tape takes unacceptable liberties. A word is added to one sentence to suggest foreknowledge of the attacks, and an entire sentence is also added. Although the text was obviously written by American agents, they did such a sloppy job of it that it doesn't even CONTAIN a confession. It was obviously not FOUND in Afghanistan by Americans, but PLANTED there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wowest ( talk • contribs) 03:40, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
Does anyone know if there were people on the observation deck at the time?
I would like to avoid such reactions (above) to our article, and am proposing we make it more balanced, as we will not agree on the final truth. — Xiutwel (talk) 12:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
A lot of wikipedians above are, unawares, violating the Neutral Point of View consensus directive. I quote from it:
One can do so: As "conspiracy views" on 911 have been repeatedly uttered, and never revoked, by former Ministers of Britain and Germany — both economic superpowers — Michael Meacher and Andreas von Bülow, I do not feel it is fair to refer to such theories as 'fringe'. They may be wrong, but they are not fringe.
As I assume there is about a 1/3 - 2/3 distribution on critics versus believers in the official version which is currently portrayed in the article, I propose we will agree to adopt a 20-80 percentage for giving weight WP:NPOV#Undue weight to facts and views regarding this debate, hoping to reach consensus on this; and change the article accordingly. — Xiutwel (talk) 12:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is a list of 149 professional architects and structural engineers who dispute the Official Bush Regime Conspiracy Theory:
Wowest 05:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
O.K. HERE is a list including
110+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement,
and Government Officials
190+ Engineers and Architects 50+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals 150+ Professors Question 9/11 180+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members 90+ Entertainment and Media Professionals
There is probably some overlap with the other list in the Engineer and Architect section. Of course, many people in all of these categories haven't given it a thought. They just believed what Corporate Mainstream Media broadcast. This is no "fringe" phenomenon.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Wowest 05:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
According to CIA/FBI there would not be enough evidence to hold up a court case against Osama Bin Laden and the other hijackers.
The alledged confession videos were proven outright fakes, the guy in the videos didn't look anything like Osama, he wore a ring on the wrong finger and wrote with his other hand, did I forget to mention that the real Osama denied his involvement... -- otester ( talk) 11:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
It must be very frustrating for them to see even wikipedia distorting the facts.
"Various conspiracy theories have emerged as a reaction to the attacks suggesting that individuals outside of the terrorist organization Al Qaeda knew of, planned, or carried out the attacks.[121] These theories are not accepted as credible by mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders, who have concluded that responsibility for the attacks and the resulting destruction rests with Al Qaeda.[122][123]"
[122] is the Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE. [123] itself refers only to the American Institute of Steel Construction’s Manual of Steel Construction, a report from F.E.M.A. (an agency of the United States government), and the proceedings of the 1986 Canadian Structural Engineering Conference.
So the article’s verification that conspiracy theories are not accepted as credible by mainstream journalists, scientists, and political leaders is based on three purely architectural sources and a report from the government against which the accusations are being made. This to me is inadequate.
Also, the word "mainstream" is highly subjective. A gx7 04:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Just because Dan Rather said it looked like controlled demolition doesn't mean it was. Selective sourcing to support a dubious line of reasoning.-- MONGO 21:13, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
My point was the word "mainstream" in this context is a generalisation. Not 'every mainstream journalist and scientist considers conspiracy incredible, as the article currently claims. Why don't we say "Conspiracy theories are a marginal viewpoint in the mainstream media at best, the majority of which report the idea as incredible."? A gx7 02:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll try to use the Socratic Method here:
CBC Newsworld gave a report that supported the idea of conspiracy (the video is here: YouTube). Are CBC mainstream? If anyone thinks they're not, I would argue that they're using a definitional dodge (salvaging the argument by changing the meaning of the word) to change the criteria of "mainstream" so that mainstream reporters have to be on the side that says conspiracy as impossible.
Because unless all mainstream programs report conspiracy as impossible, then we have to use words like "generally" or "the majority". A gx7 02:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The section labeled "Conspiracy Theories" is pejorative, and should be labeled "Alternative Theories" or something neutral. The Watergate cover up was once considered a "conspiracy theory" and turned out to be true. The sentence starting with "These theories..." is not specific enough. What theories? Scientists may agree with some of the theories but not others. The statement "virtually all" means almost 100%, which is not supported by any statistical reference. Just Google or YouTube on 911 conspiracies and you will find plenty of journalists and scientists proposing alternative theories to the story proposed by the 911 Commission. The term "mainstream" is changing. More and more people get their news from Wikipedia, Google, Yahoo, YouTube, and other online sources. The statement above is a commentary on the information included in Wikipedia, not information itself. If we cannot decide what to say about "these theories" then this sentence should be left out. This will be in keeping with the Wikipedia goal of objectivity and neutrality in conveying information. let people decide for themselves if alternative theories make logical sense, without coloring them in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.55.221.7 ( talk) 23:56, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
If there is to be a link to the "Investigate 9/11" website, it should not be the first item, but put together with all the other links at the bottom. 213.115.59.220 11:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
"Such theories"? "Undue weight"? The problem is here the ignorance of you and people like you. This Wikipedia article is substantially false, the conspiracy "theory" is the provable truth. Bofors7715 05:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I was seeing things or not... but just in case be on the lookout for a refrence named watson. Somehow it got stuck into the article for a few minutes, then vanished as I was trying to hunt it down. It links to a typical "Question 9/11" webpage. Clearly the act of a desperate troll... -- Tarage 13:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I've re-written the memorials section, since it seemed a bit lacking. It can be more thouroughly sourced, and I intended to do that at a later date, but I don't believe any of the information is contentious. I would, however, like to talk about how to improve it. We have two options for the "Tribute in Light" picture, A or B. Personally, I like B, but it seems a lot of people like A more. We also definitely need another image; there were two other ones, which I removed - the first, because the World Trade Center Cross is not a memorial, and the second because it was too large. The America's Heroes Memorial might be a good choice, but I'm open to other options too. -- Haemo 06:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Remember, let time talk to us, well greetings, and happy editing John Manuel-14:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
PD if you think were so much photos, why, then, you took out that photo and added other photo? It doesn't make sense. Does it? Consensus is hard it seems John Manuel- 72.229.114.226 01:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The "Tribute in Light" picture is mentioned in the text, as is the Flight 93 memorial. I think it would be nice to have more about the temporary memorials, but not on this page. The sub-article seems the ideal place to mention these and at the moment it does not go into much detail on the temporary memorials like the one you have photographed. Perhaps you could write a paragraph on that page about these and include your photo on there as an example of one? Corleonebrother 21:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is about the attacks themselves, not the memorials erected afterwards. In fact, some of this article should probably be moved to subarticles to new "daughter articles" and linked back to here to keep this main article focused. While I like image "B" above, it isn't really a big deal which image is used overall. Galleries and images as well as discussion regarding permanent and temporary memorials erected should be at the September 11, 2001 attack memorials and services article.-- MONGO 21:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Some comments above come across to me as incivil, which we try to avoid. Normally, I don't respond to such comments, but understand this article covers an emotional topic and can forgive such comments. I'm also pleased to be discussing improvements to the article, and pleased that the section fully referenced now. Though, per WP:SUMMARY, I think it can be shortened with some details more suitable for the subarticle. I usually find it easier to summarize the main article, based on a good subarticle. In this case, the subarticle is in dire need of attention of someone with time to fix it up (not me, I won't have the time in the next weeks). Also, I think one picture (or possibly/at most two) will suffice. My pictures don't need to be there, but whatever pictures are included should match what's discussed in the text. -- Aude ( talk) 23:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I have tried summarizing the section. You can see the sizes on the history tab. The page was 116,727 bytes before any of my edits. Removing the images brought the size down to 116,393 bytes and my copyedits have the article down to 115,593 bytes in size. A large portion of the bytes are due to all the references, which we can't worry about. But efforts to summarize sections, such as this section are helpful. See WP:SIZE for more about article size and WP:SUMMARY. -- Aude ( talk) 00:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I recently re-wrote the "motive" section of the article, because it had turned into a poorly sourced, and poorly formatted quote farm. I tried to synthesize most of the material together into some section, and trimmed about 1k worth of text. However, I am a little worried that we might be giving too much weight to the opinions of certain authors -- I would prefer more general sources for the section.
For instance, I recall reading, in Harper's (I believe), an article that made the same point as the last line; that of the "mythic" quality that Bin Laden ascribes to the attacks. I would love to use that as a source, instead of the marginally notable author used -- however, I can't find the article. I would like to do the same for some of the other sections, as well. Can anyone help out? Does anyone object to any of the sources currently used? -- Haemo 22:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Haemo, you claim it was "poorly sourced", that simply isn't true, I know I had sourced much of it when several months ago people wanted sources. The edit has been in place for MONTHS. Along you come and remove from the motives section the testimony were the vice-Chairman point blank asks what the motive was (the only time it was asked in the 9/11 hearings) and an FBI Special Agent gives him the answer. And you don't think there is something wrong with that? You also removed the statement from the Former in Laden Unit Chief calling Clinton and Bush liars. Your edit is from yesterday, the edit I am returning to was there for MONTHS. You are removing KEY facts from FBI and CIA agents and you are obscuring the motive in the motive section. Tel555 01:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald answered, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States."
The fatwa also specifically condemns the U.S. for "plundering" the resources of the region, oppressing the people by supporting abusive regimes in the region, and dictating policy to legitimate leaders. ... By a similar token, it decries the continued refusal to address the "occupation of Palestine". The same motivation was shared by the two pilots who flew into the WTC: Mohamed Atta was described by Ralph Bodenstein—who traveled, worked and talked with him—as "most imbued actually about... U.S. protection of these Israeli politics in the region." "When someone asked why he and Atta never laughed, Shehhi retorted,"How can you laugh when people are dying in Palestine?"[41] Abdulaziz al-Omari, a hijacker aboard Flight 11 with Mohammed Atta, said in his video will, "My work is a message those who heard me and to all those who saw me at the same time it is a message to the infidels that you should leave the Arabian peninsula defeated and stop giving a hand of help to the coward Jews in Palestine."
As you can see, it was removed because it was redundant, not because of poor sourcing, or whatever. -- Haemo 01:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Haemo, I read what you wrote and I know what you removed. It is CLEAR what you are doing. It is not "redundant." The public deserves to know what AN FBI SPECIAL AGENT SAYS, it doesn't matter if terrorists were quotes, the public should know that the question of motivation was asked in the 9/11 Commission hearings and that an FBI agent gave the answer. ALSO, it is VERY important for people to know that the CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief calls Bush and Clinton LAIRS. You edited that out! Come on man, you think I don't know what you are doing? I have been fighting this fight for years. And you are not being honest, you wrote "poorly sourced" which isn't true. Now you deny that you wrote that? Tel555 01:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the edit that has been there for months:
President Bush says, "They hate ... a democratically elected government. ... They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other." (President George W. Bush) Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People Bin Laden says the White House is "hiding the Truth ... the reality is that we are striking them because of their evil and injustice in the whole of the Islamic World, especially in Iraq and Palestine and their occupation of the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries (Arabian Peninsula)." [1]
Former CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief Michael Scheuer has bluntly stated that politicians are lying to the American people about the terrorists' motives, "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people. We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live. And there's a huge burden of guilt to be laid at Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton, both parties for simply lying to the American people." Lou Dobbs CNN
During the 9/11 Commission hearings, Vice Chair Lee Hamilton asked, "What motivated them to do it?" FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald answered, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States." 9/11 Commission testimony June 16, 2004
Jason Burke, author of Al-Qaeda: The True Story of Radical Islam, makes the point that, "Bin Laden is an activist with a very clear sense of what he wants and how he hopes to achieve it. Those means may be far outside the norms of political activity as we usually understand it, but his agenda is a basically political one, though it is couched, of course, in religious language and imagery." He says bin Laden's aim is "to end the repression of the Islamic world by the hypocrite governments and the 'Crusader-Zionist' alliance supporting and manipulating them." [2]
Counter-terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke, says to understand why America was targeted we need to remember foreign policies of the last 25 years. Policies of "confronting Moscow in Afghanistan, inserting the U.S. military in the Persian Gulf," and "strengthening Israel as a base for a southern flank against the Soviets." [3]
THAT is all well wrirten and sourced! You claim (see above): "I recently re-wrote the "motive" section of the article, because it had turned into a poorly sourced, and poorly formatted quote farm." and that simply isn't true.
Tel555 01:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The article presents as fact numerous presumptions which have not been proven and as such they simply might not be true. In short, from the missing Boeing 757 at the Pentagon to the blantant demolition of the WTC Building 7, the story presented in the article here is overtly biased.
This article violates the NPOV, it fails to "represent[] fairly and without bias all significant views" of people speaking up here and numerous authorities on 9/11, many of whom hold credentials which make them "reliable sources". Bofors7715 03:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Are there any security cameras around Pentagon, can someone post a video or a picture of a plane hiting the Pentagon building? Mkashifafzal 11:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Why doesn't this article mention the five Israelis who were detained by authorities when caught filming (and celebrating) the planes crashing into the towers? Instead, this is only mentioned on the "conspracy theories" page. It really happened - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/11/SundayHerald_021103.html It is an important part of the events that occurred on September 11, and raises many questions about who was involved, and who had prior knowledge. Logicman1966 04:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
You would also need to be able to prove *why* they were smiling. Agents working for Mossad could've been happy that the US would, after the attack, be much more willing to help them find and fight Islamic terrorists than they had been under the first nine months of Bush. Even assuming everything you said is true, none of it comes close to proving they had any connection to the attack. 64.95.27.5 22:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)sean
Mossad is quite a serious outfit. I don't think they would be so stupid to get caught doing something like this...tiresome to the extreme. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.129.249.240 ( talk) 12:07, August 22, 2007 (UTC)
How many Wikipedia editors here think 9/11 was an inside job? If so, why are we using the mainstream theory, which nobody believes anymore? Come on guys, we all know that Cheney gave the stand-down orders for NORAD. This article needs some serious revision.
Here is what i suggest for it "The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks by terrorist[2], suspected by US Government as Islamic extremists on that date upon the United States of America." Is it OK.
Here's a reply I've been working on for questions and suggestions of this nature:
Another common question that is asked about the article is why certain theories are not mentioned, or why the manner in which the article is written uses definite language (i.e. "is" instead of "presumably is", "were" instead of "believed to be", etc.). This is rooted in our neutral point of view policy — specifically, in the idea that while we are bound to explain information fairly, and neutrally, and the amount of space, text, and context, devoted to any particular view needs to be weighted by how much credence qualified, reliable sources give them. This is especially critical when we are talking about pages which discuss a general topic, like this one, and are segmented into subpages.
An understanding of what this entails is rooted in summary style — that is, a Wikipedia article is composed of sections, which are in turn pages as they expand and grow. Any given fact, opinion, or viewpoint has a "size" or degree of scope based on its coverage and acceptance in reliable sources who are generally accepted to be qualified about the subject. For example, the flight number of the plane which struck the South Tower (175) is a very important, and relevant fact to an article about the attacks. However, the original pilot of Flight 175 (Victor Saracini) is not that relevant — so, he does not appear on the 9/11 attacks page. However, instead he appears on United Airlines Flight 175, and further gets a whole biography on the September 11 Wiki.
This same process applies to opinions, and theories, in an analogous way. For example, there has long been theories that Adolf Hitler survived the invasion of Berlin in 1945, and fled to Argentina; there have been books on the subject, and picture purportedly of him. However, if you read the article, it doesn't mention any of these; they plainly say that Hitler and Eva Braun committed suicide in their bunker. This plain, direct, statement of fact has been disputed -- however, it does not violate neutrality guidelines to make it; rather, neutrality guidelines support it. The concept here is undue weight — that is, giving too much space, credence, or weight to viewpoints which are not accepted by reliable sources who are qualified experts on the subject. To qualify the entire article, and the entire story of Hitler's life, based on a fringe theory violates neutral point of view.
This does not, however, mean that it is always inappropriate. Continuing the Hitler example, above — although talking about the theories surrounding Hitler's death on the main article is inappropriate, there is an entire article called " Death of Adolf Hitler" which discusses the theories and speculation surrounding his death. The theory, which has not very much mainstream credence, is removed to a subpage; much like the name of the Flight 175 pilot is removed, as well.
The analogy is then clear for the 9/11 article; there are numerous theories surrounding who carried out the attacks, whether they had inside support, what planes hit which buildings, whether they were planes at all, whether the Jews had anything to do with it, whether the towers where dynamited, etc. The list is endless, and ongoing. However, the simple fact remains that an overwhelming preponderance of reliable sources, both in and outside of the government, disagree with them; they are fringe theories, in the same way that Hitler escaping his death is a fringe theory. A good way to put it is that there are many questions about the 9/11 attacks which have not been answered; however, the major narrative of the attacks is not challenged by any of the most credible question. This article follows neutral point of view and gives conspiracy theories a short section, and then an entire sub-article at 9/11 conspiracy theories. However, following undue weight guidelines this article does not compromise the overall structure of the article — in the same way Hitler doesn't talk about him as if he escaped death, this article uses definite wording, and definite phrasing to explain the view outlined and supported by reliable sources who hold expert credentials on the subject.
See if it answers your question. -- Haemo 20:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Back from wikibreaking; to follow up on: #Baseless dismissal of conspiracy, I(— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk)) would like to suggest the following:
a) (correct?) I think we are in agreement on:
b) consensus guidelines and policies are:
So, now I would like to know: how wide-spread is the view that there is something fishy with the official account? I have seen Zogby polls which suggest it's rather wide-spread:
Are there any other reliable polls available? I would like to learn more on this. I hope these polls will help us reach consensus on the amount of attention the "inside job" possibility deserves in the article. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 08:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
We'd like to add that more and more credible people are adding their names to the list of those who doubt the governments story of what happened on 911 and many of these people believe there is a good chance there was some government operation similar to Project Northwoods or the Reichstag Fire (Hitler's takeover inside job - proven!) that was planned well in advance. If you are going to counter this claim, then please at least view the sources of these claims, like airline pilots, professors, top engineers, scientists., etc. Everyone was so shocked and initially could not even believe that something like this could be possible... but the evidence keeps pointing to an inside job and now people are fed up with the war, and see the true colors of this regime. Please check the sources, such as PatriotsQuestion911.com before you make judgments on this comment. For this reason, I see others have made attempts to adjust the conspiracy page. That should be allowed. This is not right what is happening in our government, and we all will find out the truth someday and be utterly humiliated and embarrassed and sickened by it. TheAverageAmerican 04:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I quote:
So, has anyone found polls which indicate that 911 conspiracy views are NOT widespread? From the polls gathered by Corleonebrother, I would say that the mainstream account is given undue weight, compared to conspiracy theories. I would agree to not include the theories in the main article, but I would suggest (a) to use appropriate wording, making clear that it's the mainstream account, not commonly accepted, and (b) not to leave out factual material which strains the official version. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 16:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I get called a vandal for adding a link the The Complete 9/11timeline, which is a timeline with links to 3355 articles from mainstream media sites. Blah42 23:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
That is your view, which you are entitled to, but I feel that it is an important resource that links to thousands of mainstream media articles. Blah42 00:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, I see. It seems like the longer arguments were from those who wanted to include it, but the other side had more votes. All very arbitrary that the majority at one point in time gets to decide whether there should be a link. It is notable as the most complete 9/11 timeline on the web. Blah42 00:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I looked more carefully, and the straw poll is extremely biased. Wow, your side won. It obviously doesn't violate guidelines, don't try claiming that, that's utter bullshit. Blah42 00:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that anyone who feels the Complete 9-11 Timeline should not be added to the links list fails to provide any specific examples? The main argument behind why the 9-11 article is the way it is is that it has to cite from 'mainstream' sources. The Complete 9-11 Timeline is almost completely composed of mainstream media sources with links to the exact original article cited. The timeline implies 'causation relationships' [sic] which are wrong or unproven? How convenient of you not to list a single instance. Not that anyone who agrees with you ever does. Why is there not a link to George Washington University's National Security Archives? No one can claim they're 'misleading' or 'fringe'. Why is it that it's perfectly acceptable to cite information that comes from the 9-11 commission report, which has it's own share of problems, considering the fact that the most important information was censored from inclusion in the report, not to mention the exclusion, convolution or evasion of many important issues; why did it take so long to respond and why are their discrepencies in the times of events reported throughout the NORAD chain? why were multiple officers at the FBI discouraged from investigating how a known major bin laden financier and how could he own so much of PTECH, a company that deals with intelligence matters for the federal government? relation of BCCI failure to the terrorist groups that had worked closely with the CIA and the ISI? There are many other issues that need to be addressed in order to understand something like the 9-11 attacks but many are too specific or technical to include here. however you can find many of them on the complete 9-11 timeline, complete with sources cited, links to original sources which are 99% mainstream media or from George Washington University's national security archive which has credentials no one can deny considering the files they have come direct from the federal government via FOIA. Wikipedia should be ashamed of its failure to provide information that isn't influenced by political desires and 'official' or 'mainstream' urban legends. ---- profg 13:47, 7 August 2007
May I suggest adding a "See also" link to
The Terror Timeline instead?
—
Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪
(talk) 18:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
12:01, 16 August 2007 Weregerbil (Talk | contribs) (114,056 bytes) (rv, not a conspiracy article) 06:37, 10 August 2007 MONGO (Talk | contribs) (114,008 bytes) (no basis for adding this)
Hello, where is the article that the charges from this book would go to? Thanks. "In a short excerpt from his book in Sunday's Washington Post, Woodward writes: "On July 10, 2001, two months before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, then-CIA Director George J. Tenet met with his counterterrorism chief, J. Cofer Black, at CIA headquarters to review the latest on Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda terrorist organization. Black laid out the case, consisting of communications intercepts and other top-secret intelligence showing the increasing likelihood that al-Qaeda would soon attack the United States. It was a mass of fragments and dots that nonetheless made a compelling case, so compelling to Tenet that he decided he and Black should go to the White House immediately." Link Bmedley Sutler 00:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to link September 11 and 2001 in the bold part of the lead sentence? I find it makes the lead uglier without adding much.- Wafulz 18:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is there this sentence?
A third building, 7 World Trade Center (7 WTC) collapsed at 5:20 p.m., after being heavily damaged by debris from the Twin Towers when they fell.
Referenced with interim report about ongoing investigation? Twice? It should say that there is no official explanation about the fall of building 7 and referenced accordingly…
[ NIST Status Update on World Trade Center 7 Investigation] 78.0.67.12 00:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I am moving/have moved this entire section to Talk:Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center#Reminder/firefighter . — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 05:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm certain there's a lot of work behind it, but this article appears to be in a very poor state. Why isn’t it updated accordingly to the new or some extremely old data? I've just took a look at the some of discussions, so forgive me if you went through this already, but neither here or at the sibling articles I've found any reference or mention of that FOIA request which showed that there were no Arabs on Flight 77. How come?
I'd guess that official FOIA documents are valid references? Are they?
Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 78.0.67.12 02:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The end part of the lead section of 9/11 article says:
"Rebuilding the World Trade Center site has proven more difficult, with controversy over possible designs as well as the pace of construction. Construction delays, revised cost estimates, security concerns, and public criticism have all led to changes and delays to the final plans in rebuilding the complex to this day."
I don't think it is appropriate to mention what is written above. I've replaced it with:
"The rebuilding process has started on the World Trade Center site. In 2006 a new office tower was completed on the site of 7 World Trade Center. The Freedom Tower is currently under construction at the site and at 1,776 ft (541 m) upon completion in 2011, will become the one of the tallest buildings in North America. Three more towers are expected to be built between 2007 and 2012 on the site."
I believe it is important to mention about Freedom Tower on the lead section, and also about the recent progresses regarding the rebuilding of the World Trade Center site. AdjustShift ( talk) 20:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
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