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I was just curious if anyone could provide a list of nations that didn't condemn the 9-11 attacks, those that did, and those countries that really gave no opinion.
I've attempted numerous times to add references to the war games that were taking place on September 11th, however my material has been repeatedly deleted. I realize this subject is highly controversial but the existence of these training exercises has been confirmed; and I have gone out of my way to thoroughly cite my sources. Therefore I am confused as to why my material has been removed with no explanation. Are the war games being disputed? Does somebody consider them irrelevant? I would be very interested in discussing this topic, so please provide an explanation for any further edits. -- Ghost of Jefferson
What do you mean by "may have" happened? See Execution of the September 11, 2001 attacks and check the sources for yourself.
The war games are relevant because they had an affect on the military's response to the attacks. NORAD's already limited amount of fighters were participating in a bi-national live-fly exercise that pulled Air Force resources away from NEADS and towards Alaska and the North Pole. False blips had been injected onto FAA and military radar screens. A nuclear strike/retaliation was being simulated and planes were sitting on the ground armed with nuclear weapons. The NRO and the CIA were simulating a plane crashing into their headquarters. Military and FAA officials originally considered the hijackings to be part of the games and acting CJCS Richard Myers reported Vigilant Warrior as conflicting with fighter response. And then there are the exercises that have yet to be investigated, such as Apollo Guardian and Crown Vigilance.
Details of the war games remain blurry and classified, therefore any further knowledge regarding the exercises must be acquired through public interest and investigation; and in my opinion Wikipedia is an ideal tool for spreading information and inspiring further study. The war games are certainly more relevant than many of the topics included on this page, and, unlike most of the subjects, which are just reproductions from the 9/11 Commission's report, the war games have yet to be thoroughly investigated or reported on. For these reasons, I insist that all information regarding the military exercises being conducted on 9/11 be kept in tact and available to all Wikipedia users. -- Ghost of Jefferson
I just found this interesting definition of terrorism on the website of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. [1] It's called the "Academic Consensus Definition":
I would say that it is correct to call them Terrorists, but it is also correct to call them "Freedom fighters", what I don't think is correct is to refer to them as one, without also referring to them as the other. Hope this clarifies things! -- Rebroad 15:19, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I’d like to suggest that we move on from the “terrorist” debate. The issue already had a lot of attention here. The consensus was that a sitewide policy is desired, and that this article would observe a truce in the meantime.
If using or not using “terrorist” and similar or related words is important to you, please discuss it at the policy development page. That page has had no discussion since November 21.
If a policy is developed, I expect this article will conform. Otherwise, please respect the current truce. Maurreen 17:42, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rebroad, please stop the vandalism of this article. You inserted this morning that it was a "terrorist/freedom fighter" attack. This article is returned as the first item on a Google search for "September 11, 2001 attacks": see [2] You make Wikipedia look stupid with edits like that. I could understand the strong feelings if this was some kind of borderline incident, but it was an anonymous attack intended to kill thousands of non-combatants (using other civilians are weapons!) in order to spread fear throughout America and many other parts of the world. It was the Platonic form of terrorism. Slim 13:21, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
I find this whole business of calling these terrorists "freedom fighters" to be offensive. Calling the al-Qaida terrorists who murdered thousands of people on that day freedom fighters is disrespectful to the memory of those innocent people who died in the attacks. Calling these people freedom fighters allows the illusion to be formed that what the hijackers did wasn't really that bad. But refusing to call the terrorists anything other than terrorists sends the message that what these people did was indeed a horrible crime against humanity.
JesseG 05:21, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
terrorist is way to POV, why not use millitant, itrs true and above suing terrist.
Gabrielsimon 01:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no right or wrong - black or white - up or down in the world as these folks know it. There is no truth, only unlimited options and excuses. We have lost our sails.
NPOV cannot exist, yet many here at Wiki believe it to levels that are bewildering.
10 November 2004 - Gavin Palone - signing off Wiki...for good.
user:WhisperToMe has just pointed out to me that there is actually a debate going on as to whether September 11 was a terrorist attack. How sad! The word "terrorism" has no meaning if September 11 is to be called something else. The saddest thing is that users like Gavin Palone leave Wikipedia, when the project is in dire need of people like him. What was September 11, then? An attack by "activists," perhaps, akin to striding up to the World Trade Center with a clipboard and a loud hailer? Slim 05:36, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
What exactly defines a "terrorist" then? What criteria must be met? --
kizzle 08:01, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
The thing that Gavin and Slim don't seem to understand is that the debates here on wiki aren't about whether the attacks were a GoodThing or a BadThing. Things can be very bad without being terrorism; murder, tortue and rape are all bad things that may or may not have anything to do with terrorism. The debate is about whether the attacks meet the definition of terrorist. Depending on the definition, you chose this can end up being a very close debate. People should not see this discussion as attacking the victims, the US or anyone else. Steven jones 12:22, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This discussion has made me consider some things, right from the minute I set my eyes upon the topic of it. The people who commited this attack may very well be freedom fighters, that they were fighting AGAINST freedom. When you kill a person, they loose existance and complete freedom in this world. By stating that they were fighting for freedom appears to be a giant hypocrisy. Terrorism seems to be a little flawed by the words meaning (by dictionary), however the word terrorism is forming a bigger meaning in the average internet connected person (the average person who will read this article), the meaning of the word to people is changing. Using terrorism will look biased to people like Rebroad, and using freedom fighter will look biased to others (looks like quite the loop). The term Kamakazi Attack (sp?) could just as easily be the correct term, but when it comes to correct terms it is not monolythic, I dont think use of the word terrorist is much of a problem myself. I personally would call the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse terrorism, and some other seemingly heartless people I have mentioned that too, seem to think it was a way of getting information to fight for freedom. Everybody seems to be all up in arms in this strange "us and them" attitude, how about "we" for a change. "Anybody claiming to be without bias is a fool or trying to fool you". My point is that we need to really consider things as we, and in the terms of "we" I think the word terrorist fits best because there are no other suggestions, and the term "Freedom Fighter" is contradictive and quite the hypocrisy. -- Kintaro 12:51, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In response to a request to provide sources, I have included 3 URLs following the word Pentagon. Does anyone mind this? I am thinking that it might be more readable if the links in question are put in a seperate section, or under a conspiracy section if there is one. Comments please. Thanks, -- Rebroad 22:03, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
By the way, the link's I've added I found pretty quickly just searching Google for "pentagon crash conspiracy", so given a little more time, I could probably find some better examples that are better presented, and ideally with some references to experts involved, so that we can see how credible either scenario really is. -- Rebroad 22:07, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've done a bit of reading up, and there's a fair bit of evidence either way as to whether it was or wasn't a 757 that crashed into the Pentagon. I wasn't there when it happened, so I just don't know. In the absence of proof either way, should we claim it was fact if we're not sure? Please discuss. -- Rebroad 22:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Bear in mind also, that many would argue that the phrase "conspiracy theory" is in itself a POV, as it suggests to the reader that it is less likely to be the truth compared with the more commonly known story. If I must I could start quoting things that are now known to be true, but were once referred to as conspiracy theories! -- Rebroad 23:15, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I dont see motive in why they would not mention shooting the plane down, either way people would have died. However the arguments of who did the attacks and so forth is still questionable. I still think it was el queda, despite the fact of how fast things happened, how fast Dubya was given more power for instance, things like that seem planed by more then El Queda. With the amount of money dubya is getting from Clear Channel, I think this attack was his lottery ticket if anything. If it was a real conspiracy for war, rather then for just plain greed, I think different things would be happening now. -- Kintaro 12:59, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think a very good addition to this article would be to compare the events of September 11 and the events that followed with previous events in history. As mentioned earlier in this talk page, there was quite a good web page showing comparisons with the Reichstag fire, and I think it would be a valuable addition to this page. How civil am I, starting a discussion before going ahead and adding it to the page? -- Rebroad 19:36, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"Proper perspective" is POV. I think Quadell is right in that it would be hard to make such a section or page with wide agreement on what is comparable. Maurreen 00:56, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not original research, and it sounds like this article would be riddled with exactly that. And I agree wholly with Graft's assertion that most of the time there would be wasted keeping Rebroad from infecting the article with conspiracy theories. →Raul654 03:20, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
I dont see motive in why they would not mention shooting the plane down, either way people would have died. However the arguments of who did the attacks and so forth is still questionable. I still think it was el queda, despite the fact of how fast things happened, how fast Dubya was given more power for instance, things like that seem planed by more then El Queda. With the amount of money dubya is getting from Clear Channel, I think this attack was his lottery ticket if anything. If it was a real conspiracy for war, rather then for just plain greed, I think different things would be happening now. -- Kintaro 12:59, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
My understanding is that the same boldness generally encouraged in articles is discouraged on talk pages. I believe it is usually considered bad form to change or move people's comments in a way that the writer disagrees with. Rebroad or anyone else, if you disagree with the placement of the "terrorist" notice, please state your concern and leave my writing as is, and where it is, unless you get a consensus. Maurreen 21:09, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
the notice on the word "terrorist." Maurreen 21:45, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
We seem to be in a bit of an edit war over whether to include descriptions of the locations of the Twin Towers and the Pentagon in the description. Please could a concensus be reached on this? Thanks, -- Rebroad 12:33, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Isn't it enough to say that they are in the United States? If people want to know the exact location of these buildings, then they need only click on the links to get a fuller description. The exact location is not IMHO relevant to this article. -- Rebroad 12:52, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rebroad, please stop the vandalism of this article. You inserted this morning that it was a "terrorist/freedom fighter" attack. This article is returned as the first item on a Google search for "September 11, 2001 attacks": see [4] You make Wikipedia look stupid with edits like that. I could understand the strong feelings if this was some kind of borderline incident, but it was an anonymous attack intended to kill thousands of non-combatants (using other civilians are weapons!) in order to spread fear throughout America and many other parts of the world. It was the Platonic form of terrorism. Slim 13:21, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
(Copied from above)
(Copied from WOW section. Rebroad, I'm copying these questions and answers because they're a bit scattered at the moment.)
I would like to hear a definition of terrorism that would make September 11 something other than a terrorist attack. If someone has that definition, please post it here. September 11 fulfills all the criteria in my view: (1) There was no declaration of war; (2) there were no rules of engagement; (3) there was no claim of responsibility; (4) the targets were civilians; (5) there was no warning or time given to evacuate the area; (6) the purpose appears to have been the spread of terror among the civilian population. To call the attacks anything other than "terrorist" is an example of what Wittgenstein called "language gone on holiday". Slim 22:37, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
Rebroad, I'd like to stress Wikipedia's emphasis on consensus. Notice that no one else working on this article agrees with you. Maurreen 16:28, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've listed this page at Wikipedia:Requests for comment. That is part of Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. Maurreen 16:56, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sorry if this seems trivial, but somehow mainland sounds odd to me as a way of referring to the continental United States.
Perhaps I think of "mainland" as inapplicable or ambiguous for the U.S. because I'm not certain if mainland includes Alaska.
-- Eric 17:27, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
AlMac| (talk) 02:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I hate to bring this up after people have put so much work in over the last few days, but is this section really necessary? The reaction of the American public in general garners barely a paragraph. Meanwhile, the less-than-significant and pretty much uninformed comments of the First Lady on how children might react gets quite a bit more. Why is it necessary to bring up "effects on children"? I don't feel this was a significant aspect of the attacks, any more so than, say, the "effects on the anti-globalization movement" or the "effects on the movie industry", etc. Thoughts? Graft 18:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
One or 2 sentences are appropriate - no more. But the first lady of how everybody in the world feels, who made these contributions to Wikipedia (SNIyer1), will not discuss anything with anyone -- JimWae 19:04, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)
Once again, I see no reason to include a discussion of the effects of the attacks on children specifically, since there is no discussion of evidence of resulting trauma, and the commentary of the First Lady does not seem especially relevant or well-informed. Would the author please defend its inclusion? Graft 19:11, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps consider moving the section to the Laura Bush article. It's more notable and relevant as an event of her time as First Lady than it is in the broad scope of the September 11th events.-- Sketchee 10:45, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
I find this to be an odd debate. As far as I can see, the inclusion of a section about the effects on children does not dilute or harm the article. I also found it interesting that Laura Bush was a former school librarian. I hadn't known that. I see no harm in keeping it in.
The attacks were disturbing to children, particularly as the images were repeatedly replayed on television. Many schools closed early, especially those with children whose parents worked in Washington, D.C. and NYC. The following day, after consulting with many experts, the first lady, Laura Bush, herself a former school librarian, commented to parents that it was not good for children to be exposed to the numerous replays of the incidents, and advised parents to turn off their televisions. She also composed open letters which were distributed by state education officials. A "Dear Students" letter went to middle and high school students [5], while elementary school students got one saying, "Dear Children." [6]
i like many others donated blood after the attacks. how come it isn't mentioned as a response?
I'm not being facetious here, but there isn't any proof it WAS Al-Qaida who committed the attacks. I'm not being a conspiracy theorist or anything like that, it's just that I require evidence before I believe something someone tells me is true. I saw the "Bin Laden" video, and I can quite clearly see it's not even him. All the "evidence" that has been presented to the world that supports the Bin Laden theory is dubious at best. Nothing I've seen can't be created very easily by anyone with a computer. If this was a court of law, the prosecution would be laughed out of court. I'm not alone in this train of thought, either. Many intelligence experts around the world also know that the name "Al Qaida" was invented by the US government. Heck, even the organisation itself was funded by the CIA, but we already knew that.
Now, I'm not being insensitive. I know it was a terrorist attack, and that the guys who did it were cruel evil people. I thought Wikipedia was more about fact than just rampant, unchecked opinion.
As for this terrorist/freedom fighter thing, they are both. To us, they're terrorists. To the oppressed people they are acting for, they're freedom fighters. The 9/11 attacks WERE terrorist attacks. They were also attacks by freedom fighters on an oppressive regime. The two aren't mutually exclusive, not by a long shot. The world isn't black and white.
Slim, I noticed you described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Well, according to you, most military action by the US army is terrorist in nature. If we go by what you say (which I agree with), then we have to label most US military action accordingly.
You can't have your cake and eat it - either killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians is terrorism or it isn't. (Posted by 82.35.107.44)
Hi Anon, I'm not sure where I've described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Can you be more specific? Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Do you mean this one: "United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. [1] ( http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html) "Academic Consensus Definition":
The U.S. government isn't a clandestine or semi-clandestine individual, group or state actor; and it doesn't choose as direct targets of violence people who are not its main targets. Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I see what you mean, Graft. Also, as SNIyer1 has re-inserted the "effects on children" section, I've edited it to include the links, which were not added back in. Slim 17:15, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
who gets called terrorist and who gets caled defender of the faith changes depending on two factors one is who wins, and the other is whos talking, well a third might be who writes history, for example, if you look at south america, the US could be called a terrorist in what was going on down there in recent decades... not sayinfg i have an opinion, other then that.
Gabrielsimon 08:53, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I slightly edited this page to correct a simple possible error. The article originally stated that United Airlines Flight 93 crashed at 10:03 A.M. local time. In a 9/11 timeline that I read, it stated that United Airlines Flight 93 crashed at 10:06 A.M. local time. There has been some discrepancy between the times that Flight 93 crashed. Originnally the time was 10:03 A.M. local time, but since then the military has determined that Flight 93 crashed at 10:06 A.M. For more info, you may go to http://billstclair.com/911timeline/main/dayof911.html
I edited this page again to show that United Flight 93 crashed at 10:06:05 A.M. I will quote from the billstclair.com timeline I showed earlier:
"...Acording to the U.S. government, flight 93 crashes at 10:03. The cockpit voice recorder tape was recorded on a 30 minute reel, which means as new tape was recorded, old tape was erased. The government has let relatives listen to this tape, which runs for 31 minutes. So it sounds like the recording ends a minute before the official crash time. However, a seismic study autorized by the US Army to determine when the plane crashed concludes the plane crashed at 10:06:05. The discrepancy is so puzzling, the Philedelphia Daily News has an article on the issue, called "Three Minute Discrepancy in Tape". It notes that leading seismologists agree that Flight 93 crashed Sept. 11 at 10:06:05 A.M., give or take a couple of seconds, and government officials won't explain why they say the plane crashed at 10:03."
Plek, Plesase stop reverting my edits. I have to keep going back and putting it to the right time stats for United flight 93. Besides, how do you know the 9/11 commision report is right? CJS102793 19:35, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I can prove I'm right. The US Army did a seismic study to determine when flight 93 crashed. They proved with seismic data, that flight 93 crashed at 10:06:05 (plus or minus a few seconds).
I have edited this article to change the flight 93 crash time. Since 9/11, the US Army has determined that flight 93 crashed at 10:06, instead of 10:03. This is based on seismic data.
Plek, with no disrespect, if your so confident that that the flight 93 crash time is 10:03, why haven't you changed the time that's stated in the article right now?
Graft, this is between me, and Plek. If you notice, we are not stooping to name-calling. We are having a spirited debate.
In the article, I put in a new paragraph stating the dispute over the flight 93 crash time. I'll bet new users will enjoy reading about all of this. I thought I'd put it in there since the disput wasn't actually mentioned previously.
P.S. I didn't know it was bad form to delete stuff from the talk page. I promise I won't do it anymore. CJS102793 16:06, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Plek, Graft, I have now changed the UA93 crash time in the article to 10:03:11 A.M. local time (14:03:11 UTC). Now, I have to apologize for being "obtuse". I now know you two were right, and I was wrong. CJS102793 17:20, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Yes we can. CJS102793 18:51, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hey Graft, have you edited any other articles? I'd like to read them. CJS102793 21:10, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see a section on the possible reasons for the attack. This article just explains the effect it has on Americans, and makes it seem like there was no reasoning behind it, that it's just random and inexplicable. Wikiwikifast 23:56, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
AlMac| (talk) 02:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
The attacks were the most lethal attack ever by a foreign force on the U.S., and the first upon the mainland since the War of 1812. -- Oh ye of short memories, have you forgotten the Japanese balloon bombs of 1944-5? They may have been largely ineffective, but 1000 of them did reach North America, and six people (including five children) were killed in one incident. -- Arwel 17:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The attack on the Pentagon was Hoax done by the Air force.-- SPOC 03:01, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This topic just keeps coming back into this wikipedia like some noxious weed.
Spoc, you are writing NONSENSE!!! Photos have even been issued showing the crash. I'm also still waiting for an explanation for where the crew and passengers of Flight 77 (which, by the way, included the wife of the US Solicitor-General) are if that plane did not crash into the Pentagon.
This has been discussed and refuted at length in the past, and I'm getting seriously tired of every newcomer who waltzes in this page trying to revive it. Arno 04:58, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Newcomers? The first time you came here you were a newcomer. Chill out, anger/hatred was definitely the cause whoever did it. If any of the conspiracy theory can be proved (and elements of them are more credible than the 9-11 report) I suggest if it wasn't Flight 77 anything is possible. I think a plane (no reason not to think F-77) hit the Pentagon due to what appears to be an engine imprint to the left of the main hole (therefore not global hawk etc.). However have you seen the three exit holes? If they're real it clearly was not just a plane. The Pentagon has numerous cameras and I'm sure whatever happened is on many of them but we can't see it. However the truth about the WTC was on live T.V. and it's pretty clear what happened there. Lets all try to stick to the evidence, and leave the theories to other sites.
It's simply impossible that a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon. I've been to the
Pentagon and I've been in a 757 and there is NO WAY that a plane that large
could have disappeared into a hole that small. See the
The Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven for information from scientists, engineers and other professionals.
Is there somewhere to move that image at the beginning of the page? I hate left-justified images (they mess up the text), but I can't move it to the right, because it'll conflict with the template... ugen 64 01:53, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The link in the section about insurance claims and lawsuits is unclear, and the citation (link numbered 5) is not correct (it links to a Salon article called "Guru of the Unix gurus" about Rich Stevens). The unclear part is, specifically, "In April 2004, a U.S. District Court jury rejected claims [that 9/11 was two incidents for insurance purposes]." followed by "In December 2004, a federal jury decided [that there were two claims]." (I don't know the Wikipedia rules on date formatting, but should there not be commas in those dates to set off the years, as well?)
Anyhow, the U.S. District Courts are the trial courts of the United States federal court system. Was the December jury decision in the same court as the first one? Was there an appeal to one of the Circuit Courts of Appeals which then remanded the case for a new trial? What happened, here? Ari 05:43, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Pentagon is clearly a military target, and the World Trade Center housed military intelligence offices thus it is a military target as well. As far as the idea that any military action by a non-government is automatically "terrorist", that is ridiculous at anyone who looks at the root of the word, and more importantly does not fit the Wikipedia definition of the word terrorism. In addition to that, Al Qaeda claims the mantle of the Saudi Arabian state. Being as for the past decade the Saudi dictatorship has only maintained itself by way of the presence of US military bases, it is an open question whether that puppet regime is the Saudi government or what is contained in this nationalist movement. Ruy Lopez 14:58, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Removing references to "terroist" with the explanation that the "WTC was a legitimate military target" and the fact that the mention of the attacks as war crimes (with citations) is excised are more than mere embarassments to an alleged encyclopedia. The fact that we have a cadre of Wikipedians intent on finding excuses for mass murder go a long way to explain why the U.S. acts "unilaterally" in the world to protect what it sees as its vital interests. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 16:10, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've removed it because it is a conspiracy theory unsubstantiated by any reliable or trustworthy sources. The "main article" it links to is similarly nonsensical and a probable copyvio. — Dan | Talk 02:11, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Jesus H. Marimba. SNIyer1, you CANNOT keep reinserting that section without justifying it on talk. STOP IT. I will continue to delete it every time you insert it, because I find it pointless and highly irrelevant. I already put the relevant text on Laura Bush, where it is appropriate. I fail to see why it is important enough to go on this page. Please DISCUSS. Graft 19:08, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've just received this following charming message from User:198 on my talk page, my first-ever contact with him. SlimVirgin 04:12, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
I re-added the effects on children part on the 9-11 page (I noted you removed a vaild part of the legit. article) if you remove it again I WILL REVERT YOU UNTIL DOOMSDAY.-- 198 03:46, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And 198 has also left this on my talk page:
I reverted you again and will contiune to ad infinitum, I don't care about rules such as the "Three revert rule."-- 198 07:38, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
198, I'd appreciate if you'd discuss this issue here and not on my talk page. I wonder if we can be talking about the same section, because the one I deleted couldn't be said to be well written by any standard, unless you've rewritten it and I haven't noticed. I just checked and you haven't. I have no objection to a section on the effects of children, and in fact, it's probably a good idea to have one, but this one is weak. "The attacks were disturbing to children": of course they were; they were disturbing to everyone. "particularly as the images were repeatedly replayed . . ." Ditto with everyone. "Many schools closed early . . " Surprise, surprise. "Emma E. Booker . . . became part of history." (a) what does that have to do with the effects on children? (b) that's already mentioned, (c) what does "became part of history" mean? "Herself a former school librarian": so what? That gives her no expertise regarding children's mental health. The bit about the open letters, I don't mind.
This section is as though someone wrote: "September 11, 2001 was not a very nice day for America. Lots of people died, and everyone was terribly upset. Some companies sent their staff home early. The President said not to panic."
Rather than reverting and leaving threatening messages on my talk page, why don't you try re-writing it to include some specific references to named experts saying x, y, z about the effects on children? SlimVirgin 08:01, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
The attacks were disturbing to children, particularly as the images were repeatedly replayed on television. Many schools closed early, especially those with children whose parents worked in Washington, D.C. and NYC. Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida, [4] [5] became part of history because President Bush was there when the terrorist attacks happened. The following day, the first lady, Laura Bush, herself a former school librarian, commented that it was not good for children to be exposed to replays of the attacks, and advised parents to turn off their televisions. She composed open letters to children, which were distributed by state education officials. A "Dear Students" letter went to middle and high school students [6], while elementary school students received one saying, "Dear Children."
A place to start when rewriting this piece of fluff would be to Google 9/11 "effects on children". I only did a quick scan, but came up with:
Of course, there is lots and lots more to be found on this subject matter. I wholeheartedly agree with SlimVirgin's suggestion that it should be possible to write a well-founded piece of brilliant prose on this topic. -- Plek 12:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sanjay is projecting a bit, I think. He has written elsewhere that he was very upset by the TV images (many were, no?) & perhaps still think of himself as a child. -- JimWae 21:02, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)
Well I readded the effects on children, I hope that we could come to compromise on this issue in mean time "Slim Virgin (and others)" please DON'T remove blocks of text without some sort of agreement. Now I find the text to be encyclopedic because it cites sources and it states the facts. Thank you-- 198 03:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I feel that the passage does not deserve inclusion. Other than the facile observation that any violent act will be disturbing to most people that are aware of it, I see no evidence that these attacks were particularly disturbing to children. No one has produced any studies to date demonstrating that 9/11 in particular had a traumatic effect on children, or that it was traumatic in particular to children. Either of these might justify the passage, but I don't see any evidence for it, and moreover I simply doubt that it's true (except, obviously for those directly impacted, e.g. by the death of a relative). Furthermore, there is no clear reason to focus on children: this was not a crime perpetrated against children in particular, and the impact on children has no great political or social implications. We're not going to have a generation of children growing up scarred by this event, likely. Whether or not the prose is passable (which is scant justification for keeping it, in any case), it does not belong in this article. Graft 19:06, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
When you reach a consensus on User:SNIyer1's Affects on Children piece, you might consider removing it from all of the other places he put it, such as 9/11_Aftermath & List_of_movies_and_television_programs_affected_by_the_September_11,_2001_attacks.
Is cat stevens the best example of overdoing it - If so, then he's a good case to show "security" is not being very overdone.
Quite ironic really, when the US is still happy to welcome in prominent members of the IRA Army Council, and many Americans over many years have supported the IRA through their donations to Noraid, jguk 07:28, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The numbers 2,986 and 2,997 total dead are both appearing in versions. Which one is correct and is there a source? Tkessler 07:57, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure if there is a source. I've never any death toll above 2,986 on any of the sites I've been on about 9/11.
2,985 also appears in the inset.
I think that decribing the official story (that 19 al qaeda terorists hijacked airplanes...etc) as being 100% de facto true in this article is not 100% objective. There is a considarabel minority in US and even bigger around the world that think it wasa not completely true to say the least. So i only added "Under the official story" before continuing witht the sentance 19 hijackers...etc. This does not say anything about it not being true or that there was certanly a domestic conspiracy. It only makes the article 100% objective after all that this is the official story is a non disputed fact, while the story itself as being 100% true is very much disputed. So i don't know why it was deleted back? If someone can explain to me what was wrong with my addition in making this an objective article? Or are there people here who do not stand anything less than undobtably accept official Bush administration story as undisputed fact even in supposedly 100% objective wikipedia?
Which there isn't? What a joke. -- 192.94.94.106
Al-Qaeda had previously been involved in several attacks on American targets, notably the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The September 11th attacks, if committed by al-Qaeda, were consistent with their campaign against the United States, undertaken because of perceived American support for Israel's oppression of fellow Arab Muslims in Palestine, and American support for dictatorial regimes in the Middle East, e.g. Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both of which persecuted Islamist militants and whose governments Al-Qaeda opposes.
This paragraph appears in the text but I cant help thinkign that it is advocating opinion and not fact. I personally believe they do it because they are 14th century throwbacks who hate the very idea of freedom and use any and every excuse they can find to justify their actions. After all, they didnt utter word one about the palestinians until they already had a string of terrorist attacks under their belt. At any rate, my opinion doesnt belong in the article either.
I suggest that the article stick to fact. Instead of saying that "Al-Qaeda did it because of percieved ...", the article should say "Al-Qaeda claims to have done it because of ... " This holds to the facts of without the vagueness of whether that motivation is actually true or not. The edit I propose is...
Al-Qaeda had previously been involved in several attacks on American targets, notably the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The September 11th attacks, if committed by al-Qaeda, were consistent with their campaign against the United States, they claim to have undertaken because of American support for Israel's oppression Arab Muslims in Palestine, and American support for Saudi Arabia and Egypt
This removes all of the emotional implications. Also, it should be noted that Al-Qaeda itself has claimed responsability for the attack themselves so I dont think ambiguity is in order. -- Kraythe 02:18, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is a move afoot to tidy up and rewrite and rename some of the pages regarding these types of claims. Please be patient as we work this out. The debate is at Talk:Misinformation and rumors about the September 11, 2001 attacks, PLEASE join in!-- Cberlet 20:11, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
While the article mentions that the 9/11 Commission stated that "the origin of the funds used to execute the attacks remained unknown" it then goes on to say that "the head of the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Mahmoud Ahmad was dismissed by President Pervez Musharraf when it was revealed that he had wired $100,000 to lead hijacker Mohammed Atta; the transfer was not investigated further, possibly to prevent embarassment to the Pakistani government."
Firstly, Mahmud Ahmad was dismissed by Musharraf as part of his purge of senior army generals who did not support his decision to provide the US with three air bases for the air assault on Afghanistan. All the generals were dismissed or sidelined simultaneously on the very day that the air assault began.
Secondly, there is no credible evidence that Mahmud Ahmad ordered the provision of funds to hijacker Atta. The $100,000 that was wired to Atta was sent from the United Arab Emirates (not Pakistan) by someone using the alias "Mustafa Ahmad", a very common name. The same alias was allegedly used by Omar Saeed Sheikh, allegedly an ISI informer. But no proof has been presented that Omar Sheikh sent the money, or that it was done at the order of some ISI official. The 9/11 commission report does not express any suspicion in this regard, but instead says that the origin of the funds remained unknown.
The allegation against Mahmud Ahmad is based solely on a report first published by a newspaper in India, and because of the sensationalist nature of its claim, it received much attention. However, given the longstanding between Pakistan and India, it can hardly be considered a neutral source. None of the subsequent investigations have turned up any evidence implicating Mahmud Ahmad.
This page does not contain, or link to, any discussion of the response to the attacks. That is, how did the FAA respond, how did the Air Force respond, what was the normal protocol for dealing with hijackers, etc.? I realize this is dicey territory prone to the insertion of conspiracy theories, but it's precisely for this reason that I think it's important to include - this is valuable information that people should have. Shall we take up this difficult task? Graft 14:44, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't this interwiki be more prominent than in external references - I would include it in the September 11th info box - any objections? Trödel| talk 22:33, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
More than 90% of them were citizens of U.S. and U.K. Why is there no wiki project on the Holocaust and 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake? -- Eleassar777 11:50, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Where exactly would you find a comprehensive list of the dead from the tsunami? Simply put, Wikimedia needs not be NPOV - simply each individual Wikipedia, as per its guidelines. That particular wikipedia has no guidelines of that sort. sep11.wikipedia is not affiliated with en.wikipedia and thus does not fall under its NPOV guidelines; however, as far as links are concerned, it's valid for an external link, and perhaps in the infobox, but that's been debated before. Long story short to those who want to remove it: Stop whining. -- Golbez 15:45, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
I will. I just don't know why then did you discuss this instead of sending me to meta already before. Otherwise, I only wished to express my opinion here on making the interwiki more prominent. -- Eleassar777 16:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know where the recent archives for this page are? I can't seem to find anything after the beginning of November 2004. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 15:48, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Casualties refers to both dead AND INJURED.
I have changed the word to FATALITIES where appropriate. Themindset 23:53, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Since the generally accepted view is that a plane did indeed crash into the Pentagon, "alleged" should be applied to claims that a plane did not crash into the Pentagon, not the other way around. Also take a look at this page for Popular Mechanic's take on the "not a plane" claims. Mr. Billion
OK, I have found another site
[8]
Everton 11:42, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks still has markers reading "more info needed here" on some of its paragraphs. Those sections should be completed and the tags removed. -- L33tminion (talk) 04:50, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
User:CJS102793 removed some discussion from this page and moved the page to September 11 attacks, both without discussion. I have reverted both. — Ben Brockert (42) UE News 21:37, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the effects-on-children section that SNIyer1 and now SNIyer12 have been adding for months, despite there being a clear consensus on talk: that it should be removed. However, the consensus may have changed since then, so if it has, please let me know. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:48, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Hi there. Please accept my apologies if this has been covered before, but I was going through the external links section and noticed the following link http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/pathreat.html to an article on Palestinians allegedly celebrating the September 11th attacks. Without wanting to get into the specifics, there was some coverage of this issue in the British media at the time, mainly alleging that such footage was broadcast and later revealed to be false and/or contextually manipulated. I'm going to try and research this, but it seems like the link shouldn't just be buried in the external links section, as it relates to an issue which might properly be considered a controversy. For example, it could be said that many people would not consider the American-Israeli cooperative Enterprise (hosting the article) to be an unbiased source.
I would like to stress that these are not my personal opinions - whilst my own point of view does not necessarily conincide 100% with that of the article, I can appreciate that it is well-written and provides an understanding of the popularly-held view of the Sept 11 attacks. I'm not about to suggest filling the article with fringe theories, but I don't see how the reaction of the Palestinians is any more relevant than the reaction of say, Scottish people, to the attacks, if we contend that neither was invloved in executing them. Thanks, everybody illWill 22:53, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me if this has been discussed before. The following are excepts from the main article:
The article appears to be somewhat wary and inconsistant with the cause of the crash of the fourth plane in Pennsylvania. The first excerpt claims that the crash was caused by passenger resistance, while the second one says that it might've been a deliberate attempt by the hijackers, and while the third excerpt continues to backup the first one.
I think we need to get our facts straight. One or two links to a report on the cause would help. If the cause is still desputed, I think we should not explain it so matter-of-factly. For consistancy, I think the second excerpt is our best bet unless we know for sure what the cause of the crash was (via black box recordings) -- Kevin McManus 19:56, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
About a year ago, I came across a website that had downloadable videos of various newscasts around the world as they were broadcasting live on the morning of September 11th as the events were unfolding. I've tried searching for that website on Google, but I have not been able to find it. Does anyone have a link?
I realize this is a very controversial topic, but this article is simply not objective enough, and simply demonstrates American public opinion. For example, it is commonly accepted OUTSIDE of the United States that the fourth aircraft was downed by the US military. It is possible that the US media has exercised self-censorship and so the American public doees not have access to this information, but deleting caveats such as "the 9/11 commission determined that...", or putting it under "conspiracy theories" simply destroys objectivity. Could we not have this article explaining that it reflects the 9/11 commission's determinations, and have a prominent link to "Disputes with the official account"? This would, hopefully, avoid offending people's sensitivity to the subject by keeping controversies off the main page, but also thereby reflecting a wider opinion?
I'm all for conspiracy theories, anon, but how do you know this, and where did you get this information from? -- kizzle 00:48, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
Please note though, my point is NOT that this article should be rewritten to claim that the flight was shot down, or even that the possibility should be mentioned; simply that inserting "The 9/11 commission determined that" would make this article more objective in places. Does anyone think these words word make it objectionable???
Has anyone any idea of the number of people murdered on 9/11 per nationality? I know that there were about twenty citizens from my own country, plus about thirty-two from the UK, but I'd like to know how it brecks down overall. This is not an attempt to diminish the effect 9/11 had on both New York City and the USA, just an honest enquiry. Thank you. Fergananim
"According to the 9/11 Commission Report, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the attack's ALLEGED mastermind, wanted to remove at least one member — Khalid al-Mihdhar — from the operation, but he was overruled by Osama bin Laden."
Added the ALLEGED in caps - more accurate?
I have removed the following sentence, which immediately followed a comment regarding 9/11 being the largest terrorist incident carried out in the United States:
Whilst definitions of the word "terrorism" vary greatly, most do not encompase the assault on Pearl Harbour. It was carried out by a government, was aimed at a military target, and its primary purpose was to kneecap the U.S. fleet's power in the Pacific. Apart from this merely comparing the number of dead is somewhat vulgar, especially considering the sheer numbers involved. Enlightener 22:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
as decided before, terrorist is not a word we use here, it was discussed and decided before that it be millitant instead, please change it back. Gabrielsimon 21:34, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
(dont beleive me? check the archives Gabrielsimon 21:34, 20 July 2005 (UTC))
1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion 2 : violent and intimidating gang activity <street terrorism> —ter·ror·ist /-ist/ adj or noun —ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective
doesnt matter, this is why http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_to_avoid Gabrielsimon 21:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Accoring to the poll results places where the word was to be removed have already been removed. - Tεx τ urε 21:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon, please gain consensus here before making a unilateral change throughout the document that is not supported by the poll results. -
Tεx
τ
urε 21:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I have blocked
User:Gabrielsimon for a
WP:3RR violation on this page.
The Uninvited Co.,
Inc. 21:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I've just placed a request for comment on Gabrielsimon's behavior. This user has been blocked for 3RR violations several times. Please read it and contribute with your comments. -- Pablo D. Flores 13:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
I was just curious if anyone could provide a list of nations that didn't condemn the 9-11 attacks, those that did, and those countries that really gave no opinion.
I've attempted numerous times to add references to the war games that were taking place on September 11th, however my material has been repeatedly deleted. I realize this subject is highly controversial but the existence of these training exercises has been confirmed; and I have gone out of my way to thoroughly cite my sources. Therefore I am confused as to why my material has been removed with no explanation. Are the war games being disputed? Does somebody consider them irrelevant? I would be very interested in discussing this topic, so please provide an explanation for any further edits. -- Ghost of Jefferson
What do you mean by "may have" happened? See Execution of the September 11, 2001 attacks and check the sources for yourself.
The war games are relevant because they had an affect on the military's response to the attacks. NORAD's already limited amount of fighters were participating in a bi-national live-fly exercise that pulled Air Force resources away from NEADS and towards Alaska and the North Pole. False blips had been injected onto FAA and military radar screens. A nuclear strike/retaliation was being simulated and planes were sitting on the ground armed with nuclear weapons. The NRO and the CIA were simulating a plane crashing into their headquarters. Military and FAA officials originally considered the hijackings to be part of the games and acting CJCS Richard Myers reported Vigilant Warrior as conflicting with fighter response. And then there are the exercises that have yet to be investigated, such as Apollo Guardian and Crown Vigilance.
Details of the war games remain blurry and classified, therefore any further knowledge regarding the exercises must be acquired through public interest and investigation; and in my opinion Wikipedia is an ideal tool for spreading information and inspiring further study. The war games are certainly more relevant than many of the topics included on this page, and, unlike most of the subjects, which are just reproductions from the 9/11 Commission's report, the war games have yet to be thoroughly investigated or reported on. For these reasons, I insist that all information regarding the military exercises being conducted on 9/11 be kept in tact and available to all Wikipedia users. -- Ghost of Jefferson
I just found this interesting definition of terrorism on the website of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. [1] It's called the "Academic Consensus Definition":
I would say that it is correct to call them Terrorists, but it is also correct to call them "Freedom fighters", what I don't think is correct is to refer to them as one, without also referring to them as the other. Hope this clarifies things! -- Rebroad 15:19, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I’d like to suggest that we move on from the “terrorist” debate. The issue already had a lot of attention here. The consensus was that a sitewide policy is desired, and that this article would observe a truce in the meantime.
If using or not using “terrorist” and similar or related words is important to you, please discuss it at the policy development page. That page has had no discussion since November 21.
If a policy is developed, I expect this article will conform. Otherwise, please respect the current truce. Maurreen 17:42, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rebroad, please stop the vandalism of this article. You inserted this morning that it was a "terrorist/freedom fighter" attack. This article is returned as the first item on a Google search for "September 11, 2001 attacks": see [2] You make Wikipedia look stupid with edits like that. I could understand the strong feelings if this was some kind of borderline incident, but it was an anonymous attack intended to kill thousands of non-combatants (using other civilians are weapons!) in order to spread fear throughout America and many other parts of the world. It was the Platonic form of terrorism. Slim 13:21, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
I find this whole business of calling these terrorists "freedom fighters" to be offensive. Calling the al-Qaida terrorists who murdered thousands of people on that day freedom fighters is disrespectful to the memory of those innocent people who died in the attacks. Calling these people freedom fighters allows the illusion to be formed that what the hijackers did wasn't really that bad. But refusing to call the terrorists anything other than terrorists sends the message that what these people did was indeed a horrible crime against humanity.
JesseG 05:21, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
terrorist is way to POV, why not use millitant, itrs true and above suing terrist.
Gabrielsimon 01:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no right or wrong - black or white - up or down in the world as these folks know it. There is no truth, only unlimited options and excuses. We have lost our sails.
NPOV cannot exist, yet many here at Wiki believe it to levels that are bewildering.
10 November 2004 - Gavin Palone - signing off Wiki...for good.
user:WhisperToMe has just pointed out to me that there is actually a debate going on as to whether September 11 was a terrorist attack. How sad! The word "terrorism" has no meaning if September 11 is to be called something else. The saddest thing is that users like Gavin Palone leave Wikipedia, when the project is in dire need of people like him. What was September 11, then? An attack by "activists," perhaps, akin to striding up to the World Trade Center with a clipboard and a loud hailer? Slim 05:36, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
What exactly defines a "terrorist" then? What criteria must be met? --
kizzle 08:01, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
The thing that Gavin and Slim don't seem to understand is that the debates here on wiki aren't about whether the attacks were a GoodThing or a BadThing. Things can be very bad without being terrorism; murder, tortue and rape are all bad things that may or may not have anything to do with terrorism. The debate is about whether the attacks meet the definition of terrorist. Depending on the definition, you chose this can end up being a very close debate. People should not see this discussion as attacking the victims, the US or anyone else. Steven jones 12:22, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This discussion has made me consider some things, right from the minute I set my eyes upon the topic of it. The people who commited this attack may very well be freedom fighters, that they were fighting AGAINST freedom. When you kill a person, they loose existance and complete freedom in this world. By stating that they were fighting for freedom appears to be a giant hypocrisy. Terrorism seems to be a little flawed by the words meaning (by dictionary), however the word terrorism is forming a bigger meaning in the average internet connected person (the average person who will read this article), the meaning of the word to people is changing. Using terrorism will look biased to people like Rebroad, and using freedom fighter will look biased to others (looks like quite the loop). The term Kamakazi Attack (sp?) could just as easily be the correct term, but when it comes to correct terms it is not monolythic, I dont think use of the word terrorist is much of a problem myself. I personally would call the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse terrorism, and some other seemingly heartless people I have mentioned that too, seem to think it was a way of getting information to fight for freedom. Everybody seems to be all up in arms in this strange "us and them" attitude, how about "we" for a change. "Anybody claiming to be without bias is a fool or trying to fool you". My point is that we need to really consider things as we, and in the terms of "we" I think the word terrorist fits best because there are no other suggestions, and the term "Freedom Fighter" is contradictive and quite the hypocrisy. -- Kintaro 12:51, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In response to a request to provide sources, I have included 3 URLs following the word Pentagon. Does anyone mind this? I am thinking that it might be more readable if the links in question are put in a seperate section, or under a conspiracy section if there is one. Comments please. Thanks, -- Rebroad 22:03, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
By the way, the link's I've added I found pretty quickly just searching Google for "pentagon crash conspiracy", so given a little more time, I could probably find some better examples that are better presented, and ideally with some references to experts involved, so that we can see how credible either scenario really is. -- Rebroad 22:07, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've done a bit of reading up, and there's a fair bit of evidence either way as to whether it was or wasn't a 757 that crashed into the Pentagon. I wasn't there when it happened, so I just don't know. In the absence of proof either way, should we claim it was fact if we're not sure? Please discuss. -- Rebroad 22:20, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Bear in mind also, that many would argue that the phrase "conspiracy theory" is in itself a POV, as it suggests to the reader that it is less likely to be the truth compared with the more commonly known story. If I must I could start quoting things that are now known to be true, but were once referred to as conspiracy theories! -- Rebroad 23:15, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I dont see motive in why they would not mention shooting the plane down, either way people would have died. However the arguments of who did the attacks and so forth is still questionable. I still think it was el queda, despite the fact of how fast things happened, how fast Dubya was given more power for instance, things like that seem planed by more then El Queda. With the amount of money dubya is getting from Clear Channel, I think this attack was his lottery ticket if anything. If it was a real conspiracy for war, rather then for just plain greed, I think different things would be happening now. -- Kintaro 12:59, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think a very good addition to this article would be to compare the events of September 11 and the events that followed with previous events in history. As mentioned earlier in this talk page, there was quite a good web page showing comparisons with the Reichstag fire, and I think it would be a valuable addition to this page. How civil am I, starting a discussion before going ahead and adding it to the page? -- Rebroad 19:36, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"Proper perspective" is POV. I think Quadell is right in that it would be hard to make such a section or page with wide agreement on what is comparable. Maurreen 00:56, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not original research, and it sounds like this article would be riddled with exactly that. And I agree wholly with Graft's assertion that most of the time there would be wasted keeping Rebroad from infecting the article with conspiracy theories. →Raul654 03:20, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
I dont see motive in why they would not mention shooting the plane down, either way people would have died. However the arguments of who did the attacks and so forth is still questionable. I still think it was el queda, despite the fact of how fast things happened, how fast Dubya was given more power for instance, things like that seem planed by more then El Queda. With the amount of money dubya is getting from Clear Channel, I think this attack was his lottery ticket if anything. If it was a real conspiracy for war, rather then for just plain greed, I think different things would be happening now. -- Kintaro 12:59, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
My understanding is that the same boldness generally encouraged in articles is discouraged on talk pages. I believe it is usually considered bad form to change or move people's comments in a way that the writer disagrees with. Rebroad or anyone else, if you disagree with the placement of the "terrorist" notice, please state your concern and leave my writing as is, and where it is, unless you get a consensus. Maurreen 21:09, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
the notice on the word "terrorist." Maurreen 21:45, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
We seem to be in a bit of an edit war over whether to include descriptions of the locations of the Twin Towers and the Pentagon in the description. Please could a concensus be reached on this? Thanks, -- Rebroad 12:33, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Isn't it enough to say that they are in the United States? If people want to know the exact location of these buildings, then they need only click on the links to get a fuller description. The exact location is not IMHO relevant to this article. -- Rebroad 12:52, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rebroad, please stop the vandalism of this article. You inserted this morning that it was a "terrorist/freedom fighter" attack. This article is returned as the first item on a Google search for "September 11, 2001 attacks": see [4] You make Wikipedia look stupid with edits like that. I could understand the strong feelings if this was some kind of borderline incident, but it was an anonymous attack intended to kill thousands of non-combatants (using other civilians are weapons!) in order to spread fear throughout America and many other parts of the world. It was the Platonic form of terrorism. Slim 13:21, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
(Copied from above)
(Copied from WOW section. Rebroad, I'm copying these questions and answers because they're a bit scattered at the moment.)
I would like to hear a definition of terrorism that would make September 11 something other than a terrorist attack. If someone has that definition, please post it here. September 11 fulfills all the criteria in my view: (1) There was no declaration of war; (2) there were no rules of engagement; (3) there was no claim of responsibility; (4) the targets were civilians; (5) there was no warning or time given to evacuate the area; (6) the purpose appears to have been the spread of terror among the civilian population. To call the attacks anything other than "terrorist" is an example of what Wittgenstein called "language gone on holiday". Slim 22:37, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
Rebroad, I'd like to stress Wikipedia's emphasis on consensus. Notice that no one else working on this article agrees with you. Maurreen 16:28, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've listed this page at Wikipedia:Requests for comment. That is part of Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. Maurreen 16:56, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sorry if this seems trivial, but somehow mainland sounds odd to me as a way of referring to the continental United States.
Perhaps I think of "mainland" as inapplicable or ambiguous for the U.S. because I'm not certain if mainland includes Alaska.
-- Eric 17:27, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
AlMac| (talk) 02:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I hate to bring this up after people have put so much work in over the last few days, but is this section really necessary? The reaction of the American public in general garners barely a paragraph. Meanwhile, the less-than-significant and pretty much uninformed comments of the First Lady on how children might react gets quite a bit more. Why is it necessary to bring up "effects on children"? I don't feel this was a significant aspect of the attacks, any more so than, say, the "effects on the anti-globalization movement" or the "effects on the movie industry", etc. Thoughts? Graft 18:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
One or 2 sentences are appropriate - no more. But the first lady of how everybody in the world feels, who made these contributions to Wikipedia (SNIyer1), will not discuss anything with anyone -- JimWae 19:04, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)
Once again, I see no reason to include a discussion of the effects of the attacks on children specifically, since there is no discussion of evidence of resulting trauma, and the commentary of the First Lady does not seem especially relevant or well-informed. Would the author please defend its inclusion? Graft 19:11, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps consider moving the section to the Laura Bush article. It's more notable and relevant as an event of her time as First Lady than it is in the broad scope of the September 11th events.-- Sketchee 10:45, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
I find this to be an odd debate. As far as I can see, the inclusion of a section about the effects on children does not dilute or harm the article. I also found it interesting that Laura Bush was a former school librarian. I hadn't known that. I see no harm in keeping it in.
The attacks were disturbing to children, particularly as the images were repeatedly replayed on television. Many schools closed early, especially those with children whose parents worked in Washington, D.C. and NYC. The following day, after consulting with many experts, the first lady, Laura Bush, herself a former school librarian, commented to parents that it was not good for children to be exposed to the numerous replays of the incidents, and advised parents to turn off their televisions. She also composed open letters which were distributed by state education officials. A "Dear Students" letter went to middle and high school students [5], while elementary school students got one saying, "Dear Children." [6]
i like many others donated blood after the attacks. how come it isn't mentioned as a response?
I'm not being facetious here, but there isn't any proof it WAS Al-Qaida who committed the attacks. I'm not being a conspiracy theorist or anything like that, it's just that I require evidence before I believe something someone tells me is true. I saw the "Bin Laden" video, and I can quite clearly see it's not even him. All the "evidence" that has been presented to the world that supports the Bin Laden theory is dubious at best. Nothing I've seen can't be created very easily by anyone with a computer. If this was a court of law, the prosecution would be laughed out of court. I'm not alone in this train of thought, either. Many intelligence experts around the world also know that the name "Al Qaida" was invented by the US government. Heck, even the organisation itself was funded by the CIA, but we already knew that.
Now, I'm not being insensitive. I know it was a terrorist attack, and that the guys who did it were cruel evil people. I thought Wikipedia was more about fact than just rampant, unchecked opinion.
As for this terrorist/freedom fighter thing, they are both. To us, they're terrorists. To the oppressed people they are acting for, they're freedom fighters. The 9/11 attacks WERE terrorist attacks. They were also attacks by freedom fighters on an oppressive regime. The two aren't mutually exclusive, not by a long shot. The world isn't black and white.
Slim, I noticed you described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Well, according to you, most military action by the US army is terrorist in nature. If we go by what you say (which I agree with), then we have to label most US military action accordingly.
You can't have your cake and eat it - either killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians is terrorism or it isn't. (Posted by 82.35.107.44)
Hi Anon, I'm not sure where I've described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Can you be more specific? Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Do you mean this one: "United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. [1] ( http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html) "Academic Consensus Definition":
The U.S. government isn't a clandestine or semi-clandestine individual, group or state actor; and it doesn't choose as direct targets of violence people who are not its main targets. Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I see what you mean, Graft. Also, as SNIyer1 has re-inserted the "effects on children" section, I've edited it to include the links, which were not added back in. Slim 17:15, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
who gets called terrorist and who gets caled defender of the faith changes depending on two factors one is who wins, and the other is whos talking, well a third might be who writes history, for example, if you look at south america, the US could be called a terrorist in what was going on down there in recent decades... not sayinfg i have an opinion, other then that.
Gabrielsimon 08:53, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I slightly edited this page to correct a simple possible error. The article originally stated that United Airlines Flight 93 crashed at 10:03 A.M. local time. In a 9/11 timeline that I read, it stated that United Airlines Flight 93 crashed at 10:06 A.M. local time. There has been some discrepancy between the times that Flight 93 crashed. Originnally the time was 10:03 A.M. local time, but since then the military has determined that Flight 93 crashed at 10:06 A.M. For more info, you may go to http://billstclair.com/911timeline/main/dayof911.html
I edited this page again to show that United Flight 93 crashed at 10:06:05 A.M. I will quote from the billstclair.com timeline I showed earlier:
"...Acording to the U.S. government, flight 93 crashes at 10:03. The cockpit voice recorder tape was recorded on a 30 minute reel, which means as new tape was recorded, old tape was erased. The government has let relatives listen to this tape, which runs for 31 minutes. So it sounds like the recording ends a minute before the official crash time. However, a seismic study autorized by the US Army to determine when the plane crashed concludes the plane crashed at 10:06:05. The discrepancy is so puzzling, the Philedelphia Daily News has an article on the issue, called "Three Minute Discrepancy in Tape". It notes that leading seismologists agree that Flight 93 crashed Sept. 11 at 10:06:05 A.M., give or take a couple of seconds, and government officials won't explain why they say the plane crashed at 10:03."
Plek, Plesase stop reverting my edits. I have to keep going back and putting it to the right time stats for United flight 93. Besides, how do you know the 9/11 commision report is right? CJS102793 19:35, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I can prove I'm right. The US Army did a seismic study to determine when flight 93 crashed. They proved with seismic data, that flight 93 crashed at 10:06:05 (plus or minus a few seconds).
I have edited this article to change the flight 93 crash time. Since 9/11, the US Army has determined that flight 93 crashed at 10:06, instead of 10:03. This is based on seismic data.
Plek, with no disrespect, if your so confident that that the flight 93 crash time is 10:03, why haven't you changed the time that's stated in the article right now?
Graft, this is between me, and Plek. If you notice, we are not stooping to name-calling. We are having a spirited debate.
In the article, I put in a new paragraph stating the dispute over the flight 93 crash time. I'll bet new users will enjoy reading about all of this. I thought I'd put it in there since the disput wasn't actually mentioned previously.
P.S. I didn't know it was bad form to delete stuff from the talk page. I promise I won't do it anymore. CJS102793 16:06, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Plek, Graft, I have now changed the UA93 crash time in the article to 10:03:11 A.M. local time (14:03:11 UTC). Now, I have to apologize for being "obtuse". I now know you two were right, and I was wrong. CJS102793 17:20, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Yes we can. CJS102793 18:51, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hey Graft, have you edited any other articles? I'd like to read them. CJS102793 21:10, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would like to see a section on the possible reasons for the attack. This article just explains the effect it has on Americans, and makes it seem like there was no reasoning behind it, that it's just random and inexplicable. Wikiwikifast 23:56, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
AlMac| (talk) 02:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
The attacks were the most lethal attack ever by a foreign force on the U.S., and the first upon the mainland since the War of 1812. -- Oh ye of short memories, have you forgotten the Japanese balloon bombs of 1944-5? They may have been largely ineffective, but 1000 of them did reach North America, and six people (including five children) were killed in one incident. -- Arwel 17:01, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The attack on the Pentagon was Hoax done by the Air force.-- SPOC 03:01, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This topic just keeps coming back into this wikipedia like some noxious weed.
Spoc, you are writing NONSENSE!!! Photos have even been issued showing the crash. I'm also still waiting for an explanation for where the crew and passengers of Flight 77 (which, by the way, included the wife of the US Solicitor-General) are if that plane did not crash into the Pentagon.
This has been discussed and refuted at length in the past, and I'm getting seriously tired of every newcomer who waltzes in this page trying to revive it. Arno 04:58, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Newcomers? The first time you came here you were a newcomer. Chill out, anger/hatred was definitely the cause whoever did it. If any of the conspiracy theory can be proved (and elements of them are more credible than the 9-11 report) I suggest if it wasn't Flight 77 anything is possible. I think a plane (no reason not to think F-77) hit the Pentagon due to what appears to be an engine imprint to the left of the main hole (therefore not global hawk etc.). However have you seen the three exit holes? If they're real it clearly was not just a plane. The Pentagon has numerous cameras and I'm sure whatever happened is on many of them but we can't see it. However the truth about the WTC was on live T.V. and it's pretty clear what happened there. Lets all try to stick to the evidence, and leave the theories to other sites.
It's simply impossible that a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon. I've been to the
Pentagon and I've been in a 757 and there is NO WAY that a plane that large
could have disappeared into a hole that small. See the
The Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven for information from scientists, engineers and other professionals.
Is there somewhere to move that image at the beginning of the page? I hate left-justified images (they mess up the text), but I can't move it to the right, because it'll conflict with the template... ugen 64 01:53, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The link in the section about insurance claims and lawsuits is unclear, and the citation (link numbered 5) is not correct (it links to a Salon article called "Guru of the Unix gurus" about Rich Stevens). The unclear part is, specifically, "In April 2004, a U.S. District Court jury rejected claims [that 9/11 was two incidents for insurance purposes]." followed by "In December 2004, a federal jury decided [that there were two claims]." (I don't know the Wikipedia rules on date formatting, but should there not be commas in those dates to set off the years, as well?)
Anyhow, the U.S. District Courts are the trial courts of the United States federal court system. Was the December jury decision in the same court as the first one? Was there an appeal to one of the Circuit Courts of Appeals which then remanded the case for a new trial? What happened, here? Ari 05:43, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Pentagon is clearly a military target, and the World Trade Center housed military intelligence offices thus it is a military target as well. As far as the idea that any military action by a non-government is automatically "terrorist", that is ridiculous at anyone who looks at the root of the word, and more importantly does not fit the Wikipedia definition of the word terrorism. In addition to that, Al Qaeda claims the mantle of the Saudi Arabian state. Being as for the past decade the Saudi dictatorship has only maintained itself by way of the presence of US military bases, it is an open question whether that puppet regime is the Saudi government or what is contained in this nationalist movement. Ruy Lopez 14:58, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Removing references to "terroist" with the explanation that the "WTC was a legitimate military target" and the fact that the mention of the attacks as war crimes (with citations) is excised are more than mere embarassments to an alleged encyclopedia. The fact that we have a cadre of Wikipedians intent on finding excuses for mass murder go a long way to explain why the U.S. acts "unilaterally" in the world to protect what it sees as its vital interests. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 16:10, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've removed it because it is a conspiracy theory unsubstantiated by any reliable or trustworthy sources. The "main article" it links to is similarly nonsensical and a probable copyvio. — Dan | Talk 02:11, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Jesus H. Marimba. SNIyer1, you CANNOT keep reinserting that section without justifying it on talk. STOP IT. I will continue to delete it every time you insert it, because I find it pointless and highly irrelevant. I already put the relevant text on Laura Bush, where it is appropriate. I fail to see why it is important enough to go on this page. Please DISCUSS. Graft 19:08, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I've just received this following charming message from User:198 on my talk page, my first-ever contact with him. SlimVirgin 04:12, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
I re-added the effects on children part on the 9-11 page (I noted you removed a vaild part of the legit. article) if you remove it again I WILL REVERT YOU UNTIL DOOMSDAY.-- 198 03:46, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And 198 has also left this on my talk page:
I reverted you again and will contiune to ad infinitum, I don't care about rules such as the "Three revert rule."-- 198 07:38, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
198, I'd appreciate if you'd discuss this issue here and not on my talk page. I wonder if we can be talking about the same section, because the one I deleted couldn't be said to be well written by any standard, unless you've rewritten it and I haven't noticed. I just checked and you haven't. I have no objection to a section on the effects of children, and in fact, it's probably a good idea to have one, but this one is weak. "The attacks were disturbing to children": of course they were; they were disturbing to everyone. "particularly as the images were repeatedly replayed . . ." Ditto with everyone. "Many schools closed early . . " Surprise, surprise. "Emma E. Booker . . . became part of history." (a) what does that have to do with the effects on children? (b) that's already mentioned, (c) what does "became part of history" mean? "Herself a former school librarian": so what? That gives her no expertise regarding children's mental health. The bit about the open letters, I don't mind.
This section is as though someone wrote: "September 11, 2001 was not a very nice day for America. Lots of people died, and everyone was terribly upset. Some companies sent their staff home early. The President said not to panic."
Rather than reverting and leaving threatening messages on my talk page, why don't you try re-writing it to include some specific references to named experts saying x, y, z about the effects on children? SlimVirgin 08:01, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
The attacks were disturbing to children, particularly as the images were repeatedly replayed on television. Many schools closed early, especially those with children whose parents worked in Washington, D.C. and NYC. Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida, [4] [5] became part of history because President Bush was there when the terrorist attacks happened. The following day, the first lady, Laura Bush, herself a former school librarian, commented that it was not good for children to be exposed to replays of the attacks, and advised parents to turn off their televisions. She composed open letters to children, which were distributed by state education officials. A "Dear Students" letter went to middle and high school students [6], while elementary school students received one saying, "Dear Children."
A place to start when rewriting this piece of fluff would be to Google 9/11 "effects on children". I only did a quick scan, but came up with:
Of course, there is lots and lots more to be found on this subject matter. I wholeheartedly agree with SlimVirgin's suggestion that it should be possible to write a well-founded piece of brilliant prose on this topic. -- Plek 12:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sanjay is projecting a bit, I think. He has written elsewhere that he was very upset by the TV images (many were, no?) & perhaps still think of himself as a child. -- JimWae 21:02, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)
Well I readded the effects on children, I hope that we could come to compromise on this issue in mean time "Slim Virgin (and others)" please DON'T remove blocks of text without some sort of agreement. Now I find the text to be encyclopedic because it cites sources and it states the facts. Thank you-- 198 03:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I feel that the passage does not deserve inclusion. Other than the facile observation that any violent act will be disturbing to most people that are aware of it, I see no evidence that these attacks were particularly disturbing to children. No one has produced any studies to date demonstrating that 9/11 in particular had a traumatic effect on children, or that it was traumatic in particular to children. Either of these might justify the passage, but I don't see any evidence for it, and moreover I simply doubt that it's true (except, obviously for those directly impacted, e.g. by the death of a relative). Furthermore, there is no clear reason to focus on children: this was not a crime perpetrated against children in particular, and the impact on children has no great political or social implications. We're not going to have a generation of children growing up scarred by this event, likely. Whether or not the prose is passable (which is scant justification for keeping it, in any case), it does not belong in this article. Graft 19:06, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
When you reach a consensus on User:SNIyer1's Affects on Children piece, you might consider removing it from all of the other places he put it, such as 9/11_Aftermath & List_of_movies_and_television_programs_affected_by_the_September_11,_2001_attacks.
Is cat stevens the best example of overdoing it - If so, then he's a good case to show "security" is not being very overdone.
Quite ironic really, when the US is still happy to welcome in prominent members of the IRA Army Council, and many Americans over many years have supported the IRA through their donations to Noraid, jguk 07:28, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The numbers 2,986 and 2,997 total dead are both appearing in versions. Which one is correct and is there a source? Tkessler 07:57, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure if there is a source. I've never any death toll above 2,986 on any of the sites I've been on about 9/11.
2,985 also appears in the inset.
I think that decribing the official story (that 19 al qaeda terorists hijacked airplanes...etc) as being 100% de facto true in this article is not 100% objective. There is a considarabel minority in US and even bigger around the world that think it wasa not completely true to say the least. So i only added "Under the official story" before continuing witht the sentance 19 hijackers...etc. This does not say anything about it not being true or that there was certanly a domestic conspiracy. It only makes the article 100% objective after all that this is the official story is a non disputed fact, while the story itself as being 100% true is very much disputed. So i don't know why it was deleted back? If someone can explain to me what was wrong with my addition in making this an objective article? Or are there people here who do not stand anything less than undobtably accept official Bush administration story as undisputed fact even in supposedly 100% objective wikipedia?
Which there isn't? What a joke. -- 192.94.94.106
Al-Qaeda had previously been involved in several attacks on American targets, notably the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The September 11th attacks, if committed by al-Qaeda, were consistent with their campaign against the United States, undertaken because of perceived American support for Israel's oppression of fellow Arab Muslims in Palestine, and American support for dictatorial regimes in the Middle East, e.g. Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both of which persecuted Islamist militants and whose governments Al-Qaeda opposes.
This paragraph appears in the text but I cant help thinkign that it is advocating opinion and not fact. I personally believe they do it because they are 14th century throwbacks who hate the very idea of freedom and use any and every excuse they can find to justify their actions. After all, they didnt utter word one about the palestinians until they already had a string of terrorist attacks under their belt. At any rate, my opinion doesnt belong in the article either.
I suggest that the article stick to fact. Instead of saying that "Al-Qaeda did it because of percieved ...", the article should say "Al-Qaeda claims to have done it because of ... " This holds to the facts of without the vagueness of whether that motivation is actually true or not. The edit I propose is...
Al-Qaeda had previously been involved in several attacks on American targets, notably the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The September 11th attacks, if committed by al-Qaeda, were consistent with their campaign against the United States, they claim to have undertaken because of American support for Israel's oppression Arab Muslims in Palestine, and American support for Saudi Arabia and Egypt
This removes all of the emotional implications. Also, it should be noted that Al-Qaeda itself has claimed responsability for the attack themselves so I dont think ambiguity is in order. -- Kraythe 02:18, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is a move afoot to tidy up and rewrite and rename some of the pages regarding these types of claims. Please be patient as we work this out. The debate is at Talk:Misinformation and rumors about the September 11, 2001 attacks, PLEASE join in!-- Cberlet 20:11, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
While the article mentions that the 9/11 Commission stated that "the origin of the funds used to execute the attacks remained unknown" it then goes on to say that "the head of the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Mahmoud Ahmad was dismissed by President Pervez Musharraf when it was revealed that he had wired $100,000 to lead hijacker Mohammed Atta; the transfer was not investigated further, possibly to prevent embarassment to the Pakistani government."
Firstly, Mahmud Ahmad was dismissed by Musharraf as part of his purge of senior army generals who did not support his decision to provide the US with three air bases for the air assault on Afghanistan. All the generals were dismissed or sidelined simultaneously on the very day that the air assault began.
Secondly, there is no credible evidence that Mahmud Ahmad ordered the provision of funds to hijacker Atta. The $100,000 that was wired to Atta was sent from the United Arab Emirates (not Pakistan) by someone using the alias "Mustafa Ahmad", a very common name. The same alias was allegedly used by Omar Saeed Sheikh, allegedly an ISI informer. But no proof has been presented that Omar Sheikh sent the money, or that it was done at the order of some ISI official. The 9/11 commission report does not express any suspicion in this regard, but instead says that the origin of the funds remained unknown.
The allegation against Mahmud Ahmad is based solely on a report first published by a newspaper in India, and because of the sensationalist nature of its claim, it received much attention. However, given the longstanding between Pakistan and India, it can hardly be considered a neutral source. None of the subsequent investigations have turned up any evidence implicating Mahmud Ahmad.
This page does not contain, or link to, any discussion of the response to the attacks. That is, how did the FAA respond, how did the Air Force respond, what was the normal protocol for dealing with hijackers, etc.? I realize this is dicey territory prone to the insertion of conspiracy theories, but it's precisely for this reason that I think it's important to include - this is valuable information that people should have. Shall we take up this difficult task? Graft 14:44, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't this interwiki be more prominent than in external references - I would include it in the September 11th info box - any objections? Trödel| talk 22:33, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
More than 90% of them were citizens of U.S. and U.K. Why is there no wiki project on the Holocaust and 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake? -- Eleassar777 11:50, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Where exactly would you find a comprehensive list of the dead from the tsunami? Simply put, Wikimedia needs not be NPOV - simply each individual Wikipedia, as per its guidelines. That particular wikipedia has no guidelines of that sort. sep11.wikipedia is not affiliated with en.wikipedia and thus does not fall under its NPOV guidelines; however, as far as links are concerned, it's valid for an external link, and perhaps in the infobox, but that's been debated before. Long story short to those who want to remove it: Stop whining. -- Golbez 15:45, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
I will. I just don't know why then did you discuss this instead of sending me to meta already before. Otherwise, I only wished to express my opinion here on making the interwiki more prominent. -- Eleassar777 16:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know where the recent archives for this page are? I can't seem to find anything after the beginning of November 2004. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 15:48, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Casualties refers to both dead AND INJURED.
I have changed the word to FATALITIES where appropriate. Themindset 23:53, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Since the generally accepted view is that a plane did indeed crash into the Pentagon, "alleged" should be applied to claims that a plane did not crash into the Pentagon, not the other way around. Also take a look at this page for Popular Mechanic's take on the "not a plane" claims. Mr. Billion
OK, I have found another site
[8]
Everton 11:42, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks still has markers reading "more info needed here" on some of its paragraphs. Those sections should be completed and the tags removed. -- L33tminion (talk) 04:50, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
User:CJS102793 removed some discussion from this page and moved the page to September 11 attacks, both without discussion. I have reverted both. — Ben Brockert (42) UE News 21:37, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the effects-on-children section that SNIyer1 and now SNIyer12 have been adding for months, despite there being a clear consensus on talk: that it should be removed. However, the consensus may have changed since then, so if it has, please let me know. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:48, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Hi there. Please accept my apologies if this has been covered before, but I was going through the external links section and noticed the following link http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/pathreat.html to an article on Palestinians allegedly celebrating the September 11th attacks. Without wanting to get into the specifics, there was some coverage of this issue in the British media at the time, mainly alleging that such footage was broadcast and later revealed to be false and/or contextually manipulated. I'm going to try and research this, but it seems like the link shouldn't just be buried in the external links section, as it relates to an issue which might properly be considered a controversy. For example, it could be said that many people would not consider the American-Israeli cooperative Enterprise (hosting the article) to be an unbiased source.
I would like to stress that these are not my personal opinions - whilst my own point of view does not necessarily conincide 100% with that of the article, I can appreciate that it is well-written and provides an understanding of the popularly-held view of the Sept 11 attacks. I'm not about to suggest filling the article with fringe theories, but I don't see how the reaction of the Palestinians is any more relevant than the reaction of say, Scottish people, to the attacks, if we contend that neither was invloved in executing them. Thanks, everybody illWill 22:53, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me if this has been discussed before. The following are excepts from the main article:
The article appears to be somewhat wary and inconsistant with the cause of the crash of the fourth plane in Pennsylvania. The first excerpt claims that the crash was caused by passenger resistance, while the second one says that it might've been a deliberate attempt by the hijackers, and while the third excerpt continues to backup the first one.
I think we need to get our facts straight. One or two links to a report on the cause would help. If the cause is still desputed, I think we should not explain it so matter-of-factly. For consistancy, I think the second excerpt is our best bet unless we know for sure what the cause of the crash was (via black box recordings) -- Kevin McManus 19:56, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
About a year ago, I came across a website that had downloadable videos of various newscasts around the world as they were broadcasting live on the morning of September 11th as the events were unfolding. I've tried searching for that website on Google, but I have not been able to find it. Does anyone have a link?
I realize this is a very controversial topic, but this article is simply not objective enough, and simply demonstrates American public opinion. For example, it is commonly accepted OUTSIDE of the United States that the fourth aircraft was downed by the US military. It is possible that the US media has exercised self-censorship and so the American public doees not have access to this information, but deleting caveats such as "the 9/11 commission determined that...", or putting it under "conspiracy theories" simply destroys objectivity. Could we not have this article explaining that it reflects the 9/11 commission's determinations, and have a prominent link to "Disputes with the official account"? This would, hopefully, avoid offending people's sensitivity to the subject by keeping controversies off the main page, but also thereby reflecting a wider opinion?
I'm all for conspiracy theories, anon, but how do you know this, and where did you get this information from? -- kizzle 00:48, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
Please note though, my point is NOT that this article should be rewritten to claim that the flight was shot down, or even that the possibility should be mentioned; simply that inserting "The 9/11 commission determined that" would make this article more objective in places. Does anyone think these words word make it objectionable???
Has anyone any idea of the number of people murdered on 9/11 per nationality? I know that there were about twenty citizens from my own country, plus about thirty-two from the UK, but I'd like to know how it brecks down overall. This is not an attempt to diminish the effect 9/11 had on both New York City and the USA, just an honest enquiry. Thank you. Fergananim
"According to the 9/11 Commission Report, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the attack's ALLEGED mastermind, wanted to remove at least one member — Khalid al-Mihdhar — from the operation, but he was overruled by Osama bin Laden."
Added the ALLEGED in caps - more accurate?
I have removed the following sentence, which immediately followed a comment regarding 9/11 being the largest terrorist incident carried out in the United States:
Whilst definitions of the word "terrorism" vary greatly, most do not encompase the assault on Pearl Harbour. It was carried out by a government, was aimed at a military target, and its primary purpose was to kneecap the U.S. fleet's power in the Pacific. Apart from this merely comparing the number of dead is somewhat vulgar, especially considering the sheer numbers involved. Enlightener 22:55, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
as decided before, terrorist is not a word we use here, it was discussed and decided before that it be millitant instead, please change it back. Gabrielsimon 21:34, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
(dont beleive me? check the archives Gabrielsimon 21:34, 20 July 2005 (UTC))
1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion 2 : violent and intimidating gang activity <street terrorism> —ter·ror·ist /-ist/ adj or noun —ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective
doesnt matter, this is why http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_to_avoid Gabrielsimon 21:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Accoring to the poll results places where the word was to be removed have already been removed. - Tεx τ urε 21:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Gabrielsimon, please gain consensus here before making a unilateral change throughout the document that is not supported by the poll results. -
Tεx
τ
urε 21:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I have blocked
User:Gabrielsimon for a
WP:3RR violation on this page.
The Uninvited Co.,
Inc. 21:54, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
I've just placed a request for comment on Gabrielsimon's behavior. This user has been blocked for 3RR violations several times. Please read it and contribute with your comments. -- Pablo D. Flores 13:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)