![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
I am a newcomer to this article, having taken a look at it in response to the RfC. I notice that there is now something of an edit war over this sentence: "The 19 conspiring hijackers who [allegedly] carried out the attack were affiliated with al-Qaeda, a well-organized Islamic terrorist group led by Osama bin Laden, a former Saudi national whose citizenship was revoked in 1994 [1]." It seems to me that the use of the word "allegedly" ought to be something of a no-brainer, since the matter has not been settled in a court of law and there is assuredly an ongoing dispute about exactly what took place that day. To object to the use of the word "allegedly" strikes me as POV-pushing, but obviously there are a number of editors who strongly disagree. I would like to hear the rationale for striking this word from the aforementioned sentence; it seems to me that it ought to appear more often throughout the article. -- HK 01:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Mmx1 01:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure several courts of law have made relevant rulings in a variety of countries affirming the "allegations". keith 12:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
In the case of crimes, it certainly seems reasonable to require a court judgement before simply stating that someone is guilty without qualification. For example, suppose that there was a consensus that Bush was guilty of war crimes, but he had not been tried and convicted. Would this go in the article on Bush without qualification? Should we say that Saddam Hussein is guilty of war crimes on his page before the result of his trial?
Perhaps this is going too far, but is it not potentially libelous to accuse people of having committed crimes when there has not been a court judgement? (The issue is obviously academic in this case — no-one is going to get sued — but I think the point still stands.) Cadr 18:07, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, technically, were the charges untrue, you could very well sue the media, the 9-11 commission, and whoever else, for defamation if you had evidence to the contrary. That...hasn't happened. Prosecuting dead people is a bit stupid; in these cases an investigation is usually launched in lieu, which in this case was the 9-11 commission. -- Mmx1 18:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is for the mainstream account of September 11, 2001. If you have an alternate POV, there is a perfectly good place for your views at 9/11 conspiracy theories. Cheers. Morton devonshire 21:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Where is the evidence? They claim its a matter of "national security" or "protection of privacy" yet the security camera picture of 'Atta' was in fact edited and his passport was 'thrown down' no doubt, to survive the crash and the inferno and fall to ground and picked up among the tons of garbage blowing around on the new york city streets... there is nothing yet proven in the minds of many except that our government lies, has lied and continues to lie! We what the facts, just the facts.
The above paragraph [Conspiracy Theories-- Railsmart] written by another person is incorrect / partially incorrect / The True Happenings on 9/11
I would like you to please view this video it is approximately 1 hour 20 minutes long and will clear up what really happened with both the pentagon incident and the twin towers incident. This movie is the best conspiracy video out there about the 9/11 events i highly recommend you watch the video.
Below is the address to the video in order to fully understand the video you must watch it all:-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change
Recently a second lengthy quotation of bin Laden's denial in the September 11, 2001 attacks was added. I recommend removing it. In brief: it adds nothing to the article and it gives undue weight to the denial statements as being truthful.
Bin Laden before September 11, 2001 boasted of his leadership of terrorist cells which had attacked the United States, and he made public threats against the United States, and consistently since December 2001 asserted al Qaeda as responsible for the attacks.
A double indirect statement (i.e. the BBC discerning "the street level in the Arab world") claims that the December 2001 tape in which bin Laden boasts responsibility for the attacks is "faked". This statement may reflect what the BCC believed the "Arab street" believed on December 14, 2001, but such an impression of a "faked" tape was transitory as bin Laden mocked the American armed forces attempting to capture or kill him in several tapes released throughout 2002. This temporary doubt of authenticity is not relevant to the attacks themselves which is the subject of the article. patsw 04:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I saw the changes to the couple of sentences trying to describe conspiracies and would like go ahead with those. Currently they do not reflect the actual theories:
1) there *are* no other theories about why the towers collapsed outside of demolition, so it is not correct to say 'something other than the airliners.' That suggests there are numerous ideas when there is really only one.
2) while most people think that some people within the US government had some role, describing that as 'government involvement' is not entirely correct - no researchers I know of implicate entire government agencies, but numerous researchers implicate powerful financiers and others along with individuals within the government. The way the section reads now implies that researchers think 'the' government is behind the attacks, or a government agency, etc. This is not correct.
current version:
"Almost immediately after the attacks conspiracy theories began to emerge. These doubts included speculation that the United States Government knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge, and other theories of government involvement. Some researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by something other than the airliners, that an airplane did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down."
change to:
"Almost immediately after the attacks conspiracy theories began to emerge. These doubts included speculation that the United States Government knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge, and other theories of government or other insider involvement. Some researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by pre-planned explosives, that an airplane did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down."
Also . . . this part "speculation that the United States Government knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge" has an interesting twist in today's trial:
"FBI agents acknowledged under cross-examination that the bureau knew years before Sept. 11 that al-Qaida had plans to use planes as missiles to destroy prominent buildings. They also acknowledged numerous missed opportunities in the months before Sept. 11 to catch two of the hijackers with terrorist links known to the government, even though the pair frequently used their own names in the U.S. to rent cars, buy plane tickets and even, once, to file a police report after one got mugged." [3]
At what point does the fact that the agencies 'knew' stop becoming a 'conspiracy theory'? Bov 07:15, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I've just did a quick review of the article and cleaned up the references, including removing some linkspam and dead links. All of the references in the article are now using [Wikipedia:Footnotes]] format. When editing the article and adding references, please use this format. Also, any erroneous linkspam will be summarily deleted without warning. Dr. Cash 21:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I want to add this link http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/ to the section Victims and damage under external links. The link not only includes a list of names, but also provides submitted photos in tribute to the victims. What do you guys think? -- Ryz05 22:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I have just watch this video on conspiracies regarding 9/11 Video. I mean no disrespect to anyone who was affected by 9/11 but can someone watch the video and see if its claims are at all legitamite? Tutmosis 04:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html
Knock yourself out. -- Mmx1 05:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see an explaination for the puffs of smoke below the collapse and the broken windows in the lobby of 1 or 2. Those are about the only things left for me to debunk in my mind, that and WTC7's a little shaky. Maybe this site will help [www.911myths.com]. C. Nelson 06:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Why are we removing indications that OBL was responsible? [ See diff].
Ordering? I asked you (with a please!) not to remove well-cited information that states the mainstream opinion, and kept your classified (non-public) caveat. Why delete the fact that OBL first denied and later admitted to it? Looks like you're the one reading bad faith into my edits.
-- Mmx1 09:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
(I will not get in a revert war, I'm a discusser, not a boxer, as you can see by my history of almost 8,000 edits without any negative remarks about my POV and similar issues)
Would This Conspiracy Video be good to put in the article?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Buckshots35 ( talk • contribs)
"History is written by those who hang heros."
Check the sources of the current 9/11 post. There is no scientific evidence to support these claims. Only that they are official. Where is the pride? Wikipedia is suppressing the truth by not following its own content criteria rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About#Wikipedia_content_criteria
What are you afraid of? Look at the patriots of today, and ask if they are lying?
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Standish7 ( talk • contribs)
Here is another guy you can bunch with me and call "nut-case" and other degrading words: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/200306charliesheen.htm]. Just keep doing that, keep ignoring WP:NPOV and keep saying "we stick to the White house theory, no mater what. And by the way, its not even a theory, its the truth with capital T". -- Striver 02:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
here i was on my way to post something, but i figuered there is no point. -- Striver 03:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we're basically regurgitating the mainstream perspective on the story, but that's because it's the viewpoint that is closest to the truth. Many (but not all) of the conspiracy theories have been debunked and more are based purely on speculation (which doesn't belong in the wikipedia) or no evidence at all (like the remote controlled aircraft theory... i admit, strawman... but it's so easy when there are sooo many of them). C. Nelson 06:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
http://www.september11news.com/InternationalImages.htm
fine a link to them 132.241.245.49 06:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
A woman, her name was Debra Reeve, has just died of lung cancer from toxic dust inhalation from working near ground zero after the attacks. She is the 20th person to die long after the attacks and have her death blamed on the dust cloud from the collapsing building. This controversy has received a little bit of notice over the previous years, and there's a couple pending court cases of victims alleging that the dust cloud caused them health problems. Should these people be included in the death tally (putting the total over 3,000)? LockeShocke 15:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Why call it a controversy? Are there people advocating that such people die? The dust cloud was an irritant, and perhaps a carcinogen but not toxic. The key word is blame. People can get lung cancer from other sources, unless there's a finding in a court case that attributes Reeve's death to the terrorist attacks, the connection cannot be asserted in the article. Regarding the "death tally", the Wikipedia itself is not an official source. patsw 15:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I am new here, but after reviewing the archives, I see this guy MONGO having a monopoly on the "truth". As I read WP, the truth is not what is purported here. Rather it presents viewpoints that are verifiable (reported by reputable published sources) or which have prominent adherents. Yet MONGO et al muzzle viewpoints which have no less paucity and which are supported by similar or even more numerous verifiable sources.
I suggest that if a source is found in error repeatedly (an euphemism for caught in a lie) such sources should be discredited as a verifiable (using WP criterion above). This alone should cut the size of these articles significantly.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT PLANES CAUSED THE COLLAPSE OF THE WTC.
The government NIST report, cited elsewhere in this WP article is very clearly not intended to FIND OUT WHAT CAUSED the collapse (true). As a matter of fact, it fails the WP criteria above, since this group it has no role, history or expertise in building collapse or airplane crash investigations ( http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/nist_mission.htm), and its work was not peer reviewed. As a matter of fact ( http://www.ntsb.gov/Abt_NTSB/history.htm), the one agency with expertise in both causal investigations and airplane crashes, the NTSB, was noticeably absent from the NIST "investigation". The NIST study details one POSSIBLE way the collapse COULD have happened (wouldn't they have the best opinion since they had the most evidence?).
To state that the NIST concluded that the aircraft crashing into the buildings or the resulting fire CAUSED the collapse is a misrepresentation of that report. The NIST report is a theory of how the collapse may have been caused by the crashes. I suggest those advancing POV read the NIST report.
It's easily provable that this report wasn't an investigation at all. NFPA 921, "Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations", clearly outlines the steps for a proper investigation in agreement with the scientific process. (Maybe this is obvious to me becase I was a U.S. federal investigator)
(excerpts of NFPA 921-2001)
2.3.2 Define the Problem. ...a proper origin and cause investigation should be conducted. This is done by an examination of the scene and by a combination of other data collection methods, such as the review of previously conducted investigations of the incident, the interviewing of witnesses or other knowledgeable persons, and the results of scientific testing.
2.3.4 Analyze the Data (Inductive Reasoning). All of the collected and observed information is analyzed by inductive reasoning: the process in which the total body of empirical data collected is carefully examined in the light of the investigator’s knowledge, training, and experience.
This is not what was done. (tax payer $s at work)
Many are stating that there is not a shred of evidence for controlled demolition. I posit that there is not a shred of evidence for airplanes or fire causing the collapse. There are ample VERIFIABLE (by WP standards)sources for and which would justify the prominence of, a theory of explosives causing the collapse. (I read not less than six stories detailing the trail of the israelis who high-fived each other as the buildings collapsed, whose van had traces of explosives, and some of which were identified as intelligence agents). how is that linked with a possible demolition of the WTC?
Just because a majority of people do not have the intellectual latitude to challenge the appearances, this should not rightly, or by WP criteria, cause other verifiable and credible hypotheses from being given equal weight.
One person even likened disagreement with the majority view as denying the Holocaust! Hardly could I find more blatant dishonesty or partiality towards a single POV. Apparently, some here are more concerned with squashing opposing viewpoints while serving as standard bearers for a pre-ordained story line! Mudawangos 23:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Millions of people across the globe watched the planes hit the Towers on live television, and thousands of New Yorkers watched it happen with their own eyes. There is no question that two jumbo jets hit the Towers -- all of us watched in horror as it happened in real time. Claims to the contrary are just not credible, and have no place on Wikipedia. Morton devonshire 19:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
"Just because a majority of people do not have the intellectual latitude to challenge the appearances..." First of all, using big words doesn't make you smarter than everyone else. Second, unless you arguement is based on a philosophy that nothing we percieve truly exists, then, yeah dude, the planes crashed into the towers. That's what those metal bird-like things you see in the video are. Controlled demolition my ass.... slimdavey
Guys, he didnt mean that the planes did not hit the tower, he said the hit did not cause the collapse, and that there is no evidence for that. The video show that the planes hit the tower, and that there was a great fireball that lasted 15 seconds and that the towers fell after 50 minutes. What he means is that there is no evidence that the 15 second fireball caused the frefall of the towers 50 minutes later. That conclusion is not scientific sound, neither is it peer viewed.
Here, the its now mainstream prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/230306Sheen_CNN.htm]. You can no longer pretend that it is a insignificant minority that hold that view, it is a significant minority that dispute that theory, and claiming the "fire brought down the towers" is factual is a violation of WP:NPOV. Also, the majority of other parts of the world reject that theory. The people claiming fires made the tower fall have nothing more than a theory, they show no evidence to support it. -- Striver 22:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Prisonplanet? Im talking about CNN, not prisonplanet. CNN themselves mentioned Alex jones, he is more notable than you or i will ever be. -- Striver 22:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Stive-man, glad to see you finally acknowledge yourself as a "crazy tin-foil-hat nutcase". I'll remember that. : ) -- Morton devonshire 01:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I have noticed that alot of this talk page has been devoted to conspiracy theories. Isn't this page simply to tell about the incident (not speculate about what happened), and provide a helpful link to a sub-page, which is only there for one thing: Conspiracy theories and speculation.
Now before you say anything else, I relize that also this page could be offending to some, however, but we must include something about what happened, and who did it. Therefore, if we just stick to one story, the government's claim (which I do not belive myself), we can reserve the other page exclusively for this type of talk.
I belive in using the way of the American court to decide matters like these: "The idea is true, until proven false." Or for lawyers: "The defendant is innocent until proven guilty."
Thank you for reading this, -- Shark Fin 101 22:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure, ill prove it false: A 15 second fireball does not cause metal to get so week that it bends. Not straight away, and most definitly not after 50 minutes. Hence, the idea is proven false. -- Striver 22:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Hold a nail over a burner flame for 60 seconds and try to bend it. Moreover, it was not an "ordinary" fire; the combustants were accelerated with fuel from the airliners. You have enough energy in that fuel load to keep a 10-ton aircraft in the air for five hours and move it 4000 miles, expended in 60 minutes. Whether expended in 15 seconds as you claim (falsely) or an hour as NIST indicates, that's more than enough to weaken steel.-- Mmx1 23:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
That's nice, but you aren't going to get this into the article. So why bother discussing it here? Discuss it on the conspiracy theory page.
Also, considering how fast those planes were going and how difficult it was to steer them, I am amazed that both managed to hit the one floor in each building laden with professionally installed explosives. Unless the whole building was wired, and in that case, you're talking a conspiracy of tens of thousands, instead of a conspiracy of 19. Which is more plausible? No, wait .. please don't answer that. -- Golbez 23:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into. I'm just sayin'. Tom Harrison Talk 00:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, i agree with you 100%, this article should only tell "what happened, when it happened and where it happened", not take sides on disputed evenst such as "why it happened", "who made it happened" and "how did it happened". As is now, this articles does that, it claims the offcial conspircacy theory to be factual and dedicates 0.5% of the article to represent all other views. -- Striver 03:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
What do people think of my compromise edit? JoshuaZ 05:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Pepsidrinka asked me to come here and take a look at the arguments on the talk page. Mongo, I think you're losing your balance. You can't just threaten other editors and insist that any views contradicting your own be removed. I understand your frustration, I think -- I share your view of the events and think that the conspiracy theories are tin-foil-hat kookery. If you worked at Ground Zero for six weeks, of course this is a highly emotional topic for you. That said, you aren't helping your own side by trying to impose your will. That suggests that you don't trust the strength of your case to make your points for you. I don't think that's the impression you want to give. Your wikistress levels must be stratospheric by now -- why don't you just take a break from this article for a week? You may come back and find that there are others who will shoulder the load of keeping the article factual and that you don't have to be Atlas. Or you may find that it's drifted into strange waters, in which case you could easily rally support for getting it back on track. Zora 08:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
First, the impact and the fire both contributed to the failure of the structure. Most of the conspiracy theory arguments are based on the suggestion that one or the other by itself was not sufficient to cause failure. Possibly that's true, but since the impact and the fire both happened, it's completely irrelevant.
The video clearly shows that the point of structural failure for each tower was the point of impact. There is no way explosives could have been planted there. They could not be planted before the impact because it was impossible to know precisely which floors would be the impact site. Planting explosives after the impact would require people
First of all, the South Towers main support columns where not even hit, the plane hit the building on a angle, ejecting most of its fuel outside the building. So the "the impact and the fire both contributed" is not valid to the South Tower. Sure, some exterior columns where knocked off, but they didnt do much inte the first place, just look at the picture: [11]. The outer columns that where not knocked out are in perfect condition, every one of the is parallel to the other. Except for the whole, theres not even the slightest sign of compromise in the outer columns structural integrity due to the hit. The outer columns not being affected, it is imposible to claim that the 47 interrior core columns would have been effected, they where magnitudes larger, and most importantly: 'they where not hit in the first place. Regarding the fires, take a look at the girl on the picture: [12], do you see any signt of any great fire? If they where any flames, they where not on the part that was hit and not big enough to scare off the girl.
Further, if the hit was indeed a important factor to the collaps, why was it not the North Tower that collapsed first? It was hit with a direct hit, going straight to the core columns, hower, it fell 10 minutes after the South Tower, even though it was hit 17 minutes before the South Tower. This proves that the hit was insignificant, the building not receiving the direct hit and having most of its jet fuel ejected lasted 27 minutes less.
But most importantly: Not even the official version claims that the hit gave any significant damage. They specualte that it might have blown of some of the firecoating on some of the columns, not that it maters sine i proved above that even without any firecoating on any of the columns, not even a single column would get much hoter that the boiling point of water. Not that it would mater att al anyway, considering that there was 46 other columns in case one of them would become elastic, the building had 600% redundancy.
The explosives where planed long ahead, there was 24/7 construction, of course, since the two towers where basicly a huge city with 40 000+ people in them. There was a some major contruction work the weeks before the attack, and guees who was the the cheif of security in the buildings: Marvin Bush. What a conicidence!
So there was no problem puting in the charges in advance, considering that there was a normal procedure of 24/7 reparirs and that Marvin Bush was in charge. The explosives where on multiple floors, from top to botom, as can be seen in the any video of the fall. For example, see [13], the charges go of before the fall even getting close to it.
All the arguements regarding the imposibility of planting the charges after the hit are widely employed to prove that the implosion of building 7 was also planed far ahead, and not as Larry Silverstein said:
Face it, the 40+ floor building seven was not even hit by anything, even less having any jet fuel in it, and it still imploded. Did Usama do that? Oh, and for you guys that dont belive the USA government is capable of doing big Covert operations: The Manhattan Project:
-- Striver 13:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that was a great rebutal. Where did you stop reading? -- Striver 14:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure, i have no problem with that. Then on the other hand, im not saying the operation of setting the buildings with charges employed 130 000 people. Im bringing this up since there have been several calls on this talk page for evidence that discredits the official version. I just provided it, and MONGO gave me a brilliant rebutal to my points. -- Striver 14:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
No, this are the support columns: [14] [15], the ones in the middle. This is a closeup of one of 47 middle support colums [16]. Compare it to a closeup of a exterior column [17], they where not even solid [18].
As for the woman in the hole, it clearly shows that there was no "raging inferno" at the tower, there where no temperatures that could bend steel. No human can survive being even remotly close to a fire that bends the core support columns, but in the picutre of the woman, the hole is picth black, no fire in sight at all.
Here is a another picture of a explosive going of before the fall even reached it [19]-- Striver 15:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Everything i wrote is sourcable to multiple persons in the 9/11 truth movement. I wrote it since MONGO is claiming that the 9/11 truth movement have no valid issues to raise, so i raised some of them on a very narrow topic: "physical evidence of demolition". I could expand the issues to at least twice as many points, and there are at least 20 more issues to go. None of the points i have raised have been successfully refuted, minsters, actors, scholars, former CIA, 50% of New York, 80% of Pakistan, all of them reject the official version on valid grounds, yet it is still presented as factual. That is a blatant vioaltion of WP:NPOV as you will ever get. -- Striver 00:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The key word is "that they consciously failed ", not "that didn't do enough to stop it" Its a HUGE difference, and the missquote comes not from me. The evidence is easy, here are a few:
-- Striver 02:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC) --Comments in bold were made by C. Nelson 03:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
as for "using that photo as evidence is ridiculous since so many things could cause that puff such as structural collaspse starting to occur in that section", its not valid, since the fall was not even close to the puffs, the structural was 100% stable at the time of the puffs being ejected. It was at leas 20-30 floors in between the puff and the fall. Even if it was as you said, why did the force get ejected through a single window 20-30 floors below?-- Striver 00:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
because the core collapsed faster than the exterior. It wasn't uniformly pancaking, the inside collapsed faster [27]. You can tell because the TV antenna starts to fall before the building does. So while the outside looks fine, you have shit tumbling down the core floors ahead of the exterior. The overpressure is what's ejecting stuff through the windows. -- Mmx1 01:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Mmx1, I saw nothing of that kind being said in the link you presented. I further find the idea quite implausable. Could you source that statement?-- Striver 02:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The site is a companion to a 1-hour special that Nova ran on PBS; you should be able to find it on a torrent site, titled "Why the towers fell". I'll try to find another link. -- Mmx1 02:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that should be intresting. Im intrested on all points of view. -- Striver 02:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
How about
this? It's in the second to last paragraph. It's from a conspiracy site, and was originally in the New York Times. --
Mmx1 02:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC) --
Mmx1
02:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
There are some things that are difficult to explain.
Anamoly #1 - The lobby of the South Tower
Anamoly #2 - Multiple Puffs Occurring Below Collapse Please explain C. Nelson 05:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
C. Nelson 05:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry, all anomolies and whacked out theories are totally irrefutably debunked over at Collapse of the World Trade Center. I don't see nuthin about no suicide hijack survivors here though. Excuse me, there is something about the BBC mistakenly or something reporting some. Whats up with all that anyway? SkeenaR 05:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
SkeenaR, I don't see how the wikipedia page, Collapse of the World Trade Center, cleears up the specific points I made citing video and photographic evidence. I read through the article, but could you quote the parts that explain damage to the lobby or the puffs? Yes, like I said, I agree that Loose Change has really stupid theories; the BBC posted an apology to the story about the living suicide hijackers, stating that the people they found and wrote about in the article had the same name but were different from the hijackers. But I was using it for the video evidence evidence of the collapse. I, just like almost anyone who watches the isolated segments of video would, have unanswer questions about why these two anamolies occurred. I would greatly like an explanation.
C. Nelson 14:57, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I know that page doesn't clear anything up. It's just opinion, nothing more. What I was wondering is if the feds ever managed to explain the living suicide hijackers. SkeenaR 20:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, the feds published photos, not just names, of living people as suicide hijackers. Did they ever clear this up? I'm curious about this. SkeenaR 04:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's only to do with a BBC article, but I could be wrong. Thanks for this. I'll check it out. Shouldn't there be a list of these perpetrators? SkeenaR 04:53, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
84% of 40 000 voters agree with Alex Jones! See CNN voting poll [30]
This article violates WP:NPOV! -- Striver 23:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Why stop there? 100% of 33600 voters agree with Alex Jones. Tom Harrison Talk 23:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
agree with Charlie Sheen=agree with Alex Jones -- Striver 23:33, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
It's "agree with Charlie Sheen that X happened", not "agree with Charlie Sheen's views on 9-11"
Why get worked up about it? SkeenaR 00:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
As soon as I heard Sheen was on Alex Jones and that it was turning into a story, I KNEW I was going to start hearing about Cruise. Ad Hominem. As long as it wasn't agreement with officialdom and mainstreamdom it wouldn't have mattered what Sheen said. Wikidiscussion seems to have a lot in common with the media circus, namely its predictability in situations like this. But that's the thing. People can say Sheen isn't reliable or that he isn't an engineer or whatever, but as he said, he would like people to challenge him on his facts instead of using cheap smear tactics. Striver might appreciate responses like that as well. SkeenaR 00:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Charlie on CNN: prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/230306Sheen_CNN.htm]
ALEX ON CNN: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/250306showbiztonightalex.htm]
-- Striver 00:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
One major problem with the poll is that it asks whether people think that the US government covered something up. I am surprised there was not 100% agreement. Most people believe that covering up things is what the US government does. That is why it has to share power with congress, courts and press to help keep an eye on things. Had the question been on any particular conspiracy theory instead - say for example : "Do you agree with Charlie Sheen that no plane crashed into the Pentagon?" - then I am would bet that the numbers in favour would have been less than a majority. The crux is this: What are they covering up, and does it really matter to the general interpretation of this article? I have several doubts on many issues in the 9/11 issues, but I still believe that the article, at least last time I read it, seemed to show approximately what happened based on the best evidence we have so far. DanielDemaret 18:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Serious question: Is there any reason this line of argument is here and not 9/11 conspiracy theories or Collapse of the World Trade Center? There is a certain value in catologuing the intuition-based misconceptions about structural failures (sort of encyclopedic and sure to be entertaining), but it's not clear to me where the best place is. Not this article, obviously, but some consensus as to where it belongs might be helpful. Perhaps there should be an article dedicated to the topic - people other than the conspiracy nuts are probably curious about it. Peter Grey 02:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This obviously isn't the best place for discussion about structural failure or conspiracy theories, I think simply that where things are unproven it should be noted. Reported on by Fox doesn't count as verifiability. SkeenaR 03:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I think Peter Grey is right. This is not the place to address most of these topics. 9/11 conspiracy theories is actively edited, as are several other pages. Tom Harrison Talk 03:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Actively edited? Oh boy! Sounds kind of like "get the hell out of here". SkeenaR 06:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Rhetoric rhetoric. What group are you refering to? I thought I asked at least a couple of legitimate questions since I've been around here. I'm not going to push POV. I admit I could have been wrong about Tom's comment by the way. SkeenaR 07:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, but do you really think all those sites are completely worthless? I mean, for example, a lot of those sites were trying to spread the word that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and this was in the leadup to the invasion. It seems that while a lot of stuff is far fetched, fairly often the stuff is factual but the mainstream media won't touch it. If this would have been payed attention to it could possibly have prevented a lot of bad things from happening don't you think? I think some of these things should be payed attention to. Some would say that stuff like this www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/260306WWThree.htm] is the latest version. While not necessarily automatically believing it, how can one say that there is no value in listening to opinions such as this? SkeenaR 00:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
You're right, this is an encyclopedia and it shoud contain encyclopedic information. But the mainstream media and the government are highly unreliable as sources on these issues. They have proven that much. We are always being sold things on false information and it's only reported as such after it's too late. You know what I mean? SkeenaR 22:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
We'll just have to disagree on this one I guess. It was guys like Scott Ritter who were trying to sound the alarm in the example I gave the first time, there obviously was truth to it and it was only crazy conspiracy sites that payed any real attention to it. The media was not all over this, and there has been a big price. It doesn't seem that tens of thousands of investigators are enough, at least from these sources. True? SkeenaR 01:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
"While the motives behind Ritter’s criticism of US-Iraq policy have been called into question by some, he is notable as being one of the only highly knowledgeable commentators on the Iraq WMD issue who correctly predicted that Iraq did not possess any significant WMD’s prior to the 2003 war." [31] The Wikipedia article says Ritter resigned as weapons inspector. Also, how is saying "there are no WMD's there" a misrepresentation. If you can tell me, I would really like to know. Otherwise it seems pretty straight forward. SkeenaR 02:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Look, I'm not trying to put this stuff in the article, I'm not even saying that there for sure was a government coverup, I was merely trying to make the point that the government and mainstream media have proven themselves to be lousy sources for these articles. Why do you need rock solid proof of a coverup before you begin to question these sources? They're not dependable. Please don't say something like "well than, you should believe David Icke" because that's obviously no good either. This discussion might be a bit off topic, but I think it's relevant as far as sources are concerned. And I mean no offense by this, but saying that "The facts that the WMD's are not there are linked to them not finding any. That doesn't mean they aren't there, or that they weren't there..." seems like pseudoscience-by asserting claims which cannot be verified or falsified (claims that violate falsifiability) SkeenaR 02:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
This quotatiton is for Nikodemos' profile... I thought it very appropriate.
I believe that one of the major sources of POV in wikipedia articles is what I call asymmetric controversy.
An asymmetric controversy is a controversy between two sides, one of which is particularly interested in the issue and fanatical in defending its POV, while the other doesn't care about the issue a whole lot. Articles on such issues will inevitably be biased in favor of the fanatical side, because they put most effort into writing about it.
Thus, an asymmetric controversy can be described as any controversial idea that is popular enough to attract a band of loyal supporters to defend it on wikipedia, but not popular enough to attract critics. Paradoxically, this means that any idea widely considered too insane to be criticized will have a favorable article written about it, since its advocates are fanatical about the issue while its opponents consider it too crazy to bother with. Keep in mind that what makes these controversies asymmetric is not the number of people on each side, but the intensity with which they defend their views. One single-minded user with a lot of time on his hands can hold off many disinterested users at once.
Quite appropriate for those doubting the official account. They may have some interesting points, but they're in a small and concerned minority. Don't let your concern drive you to edit an article from one POV. Here's a good link with common sense about many of the conspiracy theories [32]. C. Nelson 21:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Have another look ;) SkeenaR 06:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I must say, that was a intresting link, the first one i see that acctualy tries to talk about the issues. I dont agree with everything they stated, but they made a few good points.-- Striver 23:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
"The truth deserves nothing less" SkeenaR 23:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
i love it when someone does not even bother to read something, but decides its conpiracy-crap :D -- Striver 02:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I haven't heard about this testimony. Is it reliable? SkeenaR 05:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
The conspiracy folks are on it.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/280306_b_Nut.htm]prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/280306_b_belt.htm] SkeenaR 23:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy who? SkeenaR 22:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I presume McVeigh. It's reliable that Moussaoui said what he said...is Moussaoui reliable? Not for me to decide. -- Mmx1 23:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
MONGO, don't feel like you're alone in your thoughts here. When I first saw this page and the 9/11 conspiracy theories page, I went nuts. What I learned, however, is that Wikipedia has very strange rules, which results in a strange phenom -- that it doesn't matter what the truth is, just whether you've followed the Wiki rules or not, and the Wiki rules are flawed, because they don't favor facts. Strange place Wikipedia is. Never will be a real encyclopedia unless sourcing and fact-checking flaws are fixed. You'll learn that there are several pages on Wikipedia that are guarded by POV guard dogs, like this one, and trying to edit them is like peeing in the wind. If you need help supporting your perspective, drop me a line on my talk page. Also, both Skee and Striver are good guys -- even if they took the blue pill rather than the red one. Have fun, but don't take this place too seriously -- it's just entertainment. Cheers. Morton devonshire 08:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Blue pill? C'mon, I was pointing out that official or mainstream sources for the articles on this stuff are poor. And that it's probably wise to not just dismiss everything else out of hand. [33] That's all. How crazy is that? If you don't automatically buy the government story of the week, it's the "that guy believes lizard people rule the world" label for you. It's crap people, crap. These articles are not easy. And this UFO Kool-Aid stuff seems like a cheap diversion. SkeenaR 21:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate Morton's lightness on this matter, but I don't completely agree. This isn't a benign issue like Bigfoot or UFO's, in which misinformation about these items hurts no one. This is article space regarding events of stupendous violence in which thousands of people died...I take the situation here as seriously as anyone might if they were a survivor of a Nazi death camp and someone was posting information that the Holocaust never happened. It's benign to believe in UFO's...all one does is look silly. It's completely the opposite to go around spewing nonsense gathered from worthless websites that propose a government coverup regarding the events of 9/11. While I appreciate questions arguing that the "official" story about the events of 9/11 may be inaccurate, it is completely objectionable to try and put speculation that the government was behind this matter (based on zero proof) in article space in a main article such as this one. It's not like I just showed up at Wikipedia... [34], so any learning about POV watchdogs and POV pushers happened long ago. Thanks anyway, Morton, for the kind words.-- MONGO 03:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
"I appreciate Morton's lightness on this matter, but I don't completely agree. This isn't a benign issue like Bigfoot or UFO's, in which misinformation about these items hurts no one."-I share this opinion. Here is another interesting quote-"I blame the media for failing to ask any questions. I blame them for failing to let us know whether the war was well researched, so we could make an educated decision whether or not to support it." SkeenaR 21:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I think what's unfortunate is how the conspiracy nonsense has pre-empted rational discussion. Arguing does nothing - buildings fall down because of physics, not by consensus. Some questioning of the events would be healthy and useful. But hysterical conjectures based on fear and amateur engineering are not helpful, and just create a lot of noise that prevents worthwhile discussion. (Like the worthwhile discussion that's not happening here.) Peter Grey 06:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
You just started the controlled demolition talk again Peter. SkeenaR 21:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and here is a quote from a firefighter, for your benefit:
-- Striver 13:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Again, I see fire in the image from your website you keep using as a reference, above the person. The other image was taken at night. Black smoke equals chemical or fuel fire, white smoke equals paper or wood fire. Again...you seem to know nothing about how the WTC was built...and no one has claimed that solid steel had to melt in the correct reports. I went to an engine academy Striver and fought forest fires for the NPS for a dozen years. Even forest fires get hot enough to melt an automobile. You know absolutely nothing about fire and that is apparent to me.-- MONGO 14:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Be polite, Mongo. C. Nelson 07:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The centre of the fire, obviously, was hotter than the edges (wouldn't the edges have more oxygen? I'm not a fire engineer though). It seems that Striver is asserting that buildings can't fall down except deliberately. That's a statement of faith - and it's not true in the real world. It's like saying the Titanic couldn't sink. Some people did say that; they were wrong. When engineers design a building to withstand an airplane collision, it doesn't mean they replace a few windows and everyone goes back to their desk the next day, it means the building stays standing long enough to be evacuated. 95% of the time. If your intuition is telling you something different, it's because intuition gets it wrong in situations like this. There's a reason that it's illegal for amateurs to engineer buildings. Peter Grey 16:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The buildings were designed to withstand a low speed impact from a similar sized aircraft that may have gotten lost in the fog and flying at much less than 200mph...not a high speed impact flying into the building at 490 and 590 mph respectively. No one knows how much damage was done to the towers internal steel...my guess would be that it was signicant...no one was able to use the elevators or the stairwells (all in the middle of the structures) to get down in the North Tower...that should clearly indicate that the internal damage was signicant.-- MONGO 09:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
MONGO, take a look at this guy: Kevin Ryan.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Striver ( talk • contribs)
I'm not understanding what relevance this ongoing conversation has to improving this article. Perhaps you would like to take it to the conspiracy page? Wikipedia is not a forum. Please shift this to improving the article, rather than arguing over the physics of the matter. Putting this in to the article is, at present, non-negotiable. Work on the conspiracy article first. -- Golbez 15:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's an idea: let's archive what we've got, and any new discussion that doesn't belong can be cut-and-pasted to Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories. Peter Grey 18:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The point: this article is pov. Polls prove it. Common sense proves it. Kevin Ryan proves it. This article is P O V. MONGO whent "no evidence of being pov". I gave it. Now, NPOV the article. -- Striver 00:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Ryan tests water, not steel. I see you're a .NET programmer. It's the equivalent of you giving some insight into Java programming because you work for a company that does Java. -- Mmx1 00:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The article is fairly neutral....it's the trolling by conspiracy theorists on this talk page that demand to have unencyclopedic nonsense in main article space...oh, yeah...the U.S. Government blew up the buildings...yeah...the planes weren't hijacked by 19 islamofascist terrorists...the Pentagon was hit by a missle...yeah...the plane that crashed in Pennyslvania was shot down by the government...yeah...that's what really happened, surely. This Kevin Ryan guy probably got fired because he has half a brain and upset over his termination he made up this cock and bull nonsense to try and even the score...but more likely his employers realized he was a fool when he went to them with his "evidence".-- MONGO 03:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Here are a list of headings that have nothing to do with improving the article. I suggest we archive, tell people to move this "debate", if it can be called that, to the conspiracy page.
C. Nelson - This seems to me like a no brainer. Discussion is off track.
Or perhaps someone wants to refactor? If people are still debating this during the summer, I'd be happy to refactor the archives... perhaps move all the conspiracy discussions to one archive.
I moved all the discussion to Archive 15, aside from this one and the latest thread.-- MONGO 09:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Breath of fresh air. nice. --
Mmx1
15:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I'm new here at the Wikipedia. But, when reading this article, I noticed that instead the typical "Controversy" sub-secction found in many of this Enciclopedia's articles, there's one called "Conspiracy Theories". This name is itself biased and in my opinion should be replaced by the typical and unbiased term "Controversy". I tryied to change this, but my edit was removed, what is the right procedure to do this?
Normal nick 00:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Controversies sections exist where there are some common facts and opinions differ on their interpretation and significance. So the decision to drop the bomb on Hiroshima is controversial. Use of steroids in baseball is controversial. The gap between the facts according to the 9/11 commission and the conspiracy theories is too large to be considered a controversy. patsw 05:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Refusing to use the word controversy and insisting on using the tag 'conspiracy theorist' unquestionably has an undeserved credibility bashing effect on anyone who expresses ideas or views that may contradict the 'official story' or mainstream media. I think this is intentional in many cases. And there are many credible sources outside of these. SkeenaR 19:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I think it is up to you to show why conspiracy theory is not suitable for a title. Tom Harrison Talk 21:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Some of the unofficial theories appear to have supporting evidence while others appear to have none. Many claims of the official account seem to be legitimate while others seem unsubsantiated. But one thing is certain, and that is there is much controversy - obviously. SkeenaR 04:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Our own article Conspiracy theory states the problems with using the term: "The term "conspiracy theory" is used by scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, having certain regular features, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with certain naive methodological flaws. The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss allegedly misconceived, paranoid or outlandish rumors."
If there was nothing to cover up, why was there no crime scene investigation at the WTC site, why was the evidence meticulously removed? Why is there no picture whatsoever showing commercial airline markings on any of the planes that were alleged to have been commercial airliners? Of course its a conspiracy, of course there are theories and this article is nothing but conspiracy theories... but use of that term is a pejorative, freighted with the meaning "nutty speculation". The entire article needs a rewrite to become credible and NPOV, we shouldn't pick and choose as to whose speculations and assertions are more credible, just report facts based on evidence. But anything counter to the official 9/11 commission report is sent of to the Kid's Table. What if we had written an article on the Kennedy assassination, not including anything contrary to the Warren Commission Report??? Pedant 23:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Our own article Conspiracy theory states the problems with using the term: "The term "conspiracy theory" is used by scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, having certain regular features, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with certain naive methodological flaws. The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss allegedly misconceived, paranoid or outlandish rumors." Pedant 23:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Normal nick 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Normal nick 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The points of view Normal nick speaks of have no basis in fact...they are just nonsense...and that is why they are not in this article.-- MONGO 03:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Normal nick 03:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Asserting that you work for the USDHS is as ridiculous as me saying I'm the President's Head Secret Service Agent. Unless you are editing non-anonymously, AS the person who works for USDHS, and as a witness, which you aren't so that point is just plain bs. Since there is ample footage of the impact and events leading up to the impact at the Pentagon, there should be a picture of a commercial airliner just prior to it hitting the Pentagon. There ARE pictures, and if they did show such an image, they would very likely have been released. There being as you say "no evidence that proves implosion" is no more cogent than me saying "it is physically impossible for a building of that type to collapse in that way from jet fuel fires", and there is ample evidence that indicates that controlled demolition by pre-placed charges is more likely than the assertion that a building specifically designed' to withstand a similar impact -- with a greater fuel payload, on a day with MORE wind load, with more static weight load of people in the building -- just collapsed, like no other building in history ever has, and in complete contradiction to the laws of physics", and that the 2 buildings next to it also collapsed the same way, the first 3 steel framed buildings to have all their steel melt at temperatures far lower than the melting point of such steel, all 3 buildings crumbling to dust. Ignoring one scientist in favor of another is a POV violation. Not to mention that one of the towers began to topple to the side and then turned to dust and fell straight down at freefall speeds, in complete violation of conservation of angular momentum. Lastly, if you work for the USDHS, what is your job? Lurking on wikipedia and frustrating attempts by other editors to write a factually based unbiased article? If you know something that would definitely prove that a commercial airliner hit the Pentagon, you should make it public, not brag about it backstage at Wikipedia. Pedant 23:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Then go put that junk in the conspiracy theory page...saying how something looked is a bit POV, no? Gee...sure looks like controlled demolition...is not encyclopedic. I'm not neutral? How do you figure that? If I know the facts and a bunch on nonsense oushing POVer's come here and I do what I can to keep their nonsense out of an encyclopedic article, then I am ensuring a close following of the undue weight clause of WP:NPOV. Do you have proof of controlled demolition? Okay...see you around then.-- MONGO 04:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Changing the title from conspiracy theories to controversies makes the title inaccurate. Conspiracy theories is the accurate description of these speculations. This particular collection of conspiracy theories is about 9/11. 9/11 conspiracy theories is entirely correct for an article title, and for the section that points the reader to that article. Tom Harrison Talk 15:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with keeping the title "conspiracy theories" primarily for it's relationship with the article 9/11 conspiracy theories. To change the title of this section would mean to change the title and inference of that page. -- Zleitzen 15:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I endorese Normal nick suggestion and arguemnets for renaming the section to "controversy". Many of the points are based on facts, such as the facts mentioned by Kevin Ryan. Such as the fact of firefighters reporting explosives. Such as the fact that the fireball could not have traveled 1100 feets down to the lobby, and even if it did, it could not create the damage there was there. Such as the fact that no steel framed building have collapsed before or after that. Such as the fact that wtc7 was no hit by a any airplain. Such as the fact that the only three steelframed buildings that collpased in history due to supposed fire, collpased on the same day and where owned by the same guy. Such as the fact that no airplain engines where recovered from pengagon. Such as the fact that pentagon has no released the photo of any plane. Such as the fact that NORAD stood down. Such as, aaah who cares, MONGO does not care for facts, he is not even reading this, he will just repeat i have "zero facts"... -- Striver 18:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
You got People questioning the official American 9/11 account, and you say there is no controversy? All those people are not conspiracy theorist, many of them just dont buy the 9/11 Commissions account and whant a new and independent investigation. -- Striver 18:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The paper (below) has undergone modifications and a second set of peer reviews
This article is pov, NPOV it!-- Striver 12:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Thousands of people did not coordiante that lie, almost all stated that the house fell due to explosives the first days, it was first after the official lie was put on the news that people started to parrot it. -- Striver 17:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Mongo, I'm curious about a couple of things and was wondering if you could enlighten me a bit. I assume by USDHS you mean Homeland Security. I noticed that the Popular Mechanics article on 9/11 was written by Ben Chertoff, the cousin of Secretary Chertoff of Homeland Security. Of course I can't say for sure that there is a connection here, but what I was wondering is if it is a policy of Homeland Security to maintain a presence in spaces such as this one, or if you are operating here in a professional capacity. It would be interesting to hear about this from you if you work for Homeland Security. SkeenaR 23:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is an interesting article:
"The War Department is planning to insert itself into every area of the Internet from blogs to chat rooms, from leftist web sites to editorial commentary. Their rapid response team will be on hair-trigger alert to dispute any tidbit of information that challenges the official storyline." " The article is clearly biased, but the Rumsfeld quotes and information are interesting.
SkeenaR 22:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Here's another one about this. "examples of information war listed in the report include the creation of “Truth Squads” to provide public information when negative publicity, such as the Abu Ghraib torture scandal, hits US operations, and the establishment of “Humanitarian Road Shows”, which will talk up American support for democracy and freedom" [37] SkeenaR 02:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I doubt Parks would be interested, but the other feds might give you the big bucks, especially if you show them some your work. It looks like a growth industry for sure. Have you written anything about motorized use? If so, where can I find it? BTW, if you are interested, here's that Popular Mechanics article. [38]. SkeenaR 03:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it (maybe I'm missing something) this 6492 word debate has been over "conspiracy theory" versus "controversy". By any objective measure, there is no case for claiming a good-faith controversy. There are many legitimate questions that can, and should, be asked, conclusions that should be double-checked, and so on. The conspiracy theorists do not do that - they give us nonsense like "a puff a smoke proves there were demolition charges and therefore a conspiracy", when the photographs clearly show dust falling, not heated gas rising. And if I may add a personal comment, I find it absolutely disgusting that people would attempt to co-opt the deaths of thousands of innocent people merely to provide an outlet for their paranoid delusions. Peter Grey 06:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you mean like Barry Zelman, who lost his brother, and Bob Mcalvane, who lost his son, and both participant in the The Citizens' Commission on 9-11, claiming the USA government is responsible? -- Striver 13:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
I am a newcomer to this article, having taken a look at it in response to the RfC. I notice that there is now something of an edit war over this sentence: "The 19 conspiring hijackers who [allegedly] carried out the attack were affiliated with al-Qaeda, a well-organized Islamic terrorist group led by Osama bin Laden, a former Saudi national whose citizenship was revoked in 1994 [1]." It seems to me that the use of the word "allegedly" ought to be something of a no-brainer, since the matter has not been settled in a court of law and there is assuredly an ongoing dispute about exactly what took place that day. To object to the use of the word "allegedly" strikes me as POV-pushing, but obviously there are a number of editors who strongly disagree. I would like to hear the rationale for striking this word from the aforementioned sentence; it seems to me that it ought to appear more often throughout the article. -- HK 01:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Mmx1 01:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure several courts of law have made relevant rulings in a variety of countries affirming the "allegations". keith 12:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
In the case of crimes, it certainly seems reasonable to require a court judgement before simply stating that someone is guilty without qualification. For example, suppose that there was a consensus that Bush was guilty of war crimes, but he had not been tried and convicted. Would this go in the article on Bush without qualification? Should we say that Saddam Hussein is guilty of war crimes on his page before the result of his trial?
Perhaps this is going too far, but is it not potentially libelous to accuse people of having committed crimes when there has not been a court judgement? (The issue is obviously academic in this case — no-one is going to get sued — but I think the point still stands.) Cadr 18:07, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, technically, were the charges untrue, you could very well sue the media, the 9-11 commission, and whoever else, for defamation if you had evidence to the contrary. That...hasn't happened. Prosecuting dead people is a bit stupid; in these cases an investigation is usually launched in lieu, which in this case was the 9-11 commission. -- Mmx1 18:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is for the mainstream account of September 11, 2001. If you have an alternate POV, there is a perfectly good place for your views at 9/11 conspiracy theories. Cheers. Morton devonshire 21:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Where is the evidence? They claim its a matter of "national security" or "protection of privacy" yet the security camera picture of 'Atta' was in fact edited and his passport was 'thrown down' no doubt, to survive the crash and the inferno and fall to ground and picked up among the tons of garbage blowing around on the new york city streets... there is nothing yet proven in the minds of many except that our government lies, has lied and continues to lie! We what the facts, just the facts.
The above paragraph [Conspiracy Theories-- Railsmart] written by another person is incorrect / partially incorrect / The True Happenings on 9/11
I would like you to please view this video it is approximately 1 hour 20 minutes long and will clear up what really happened with both the pentagon incident and the twin towers incident. This movie is the best conspiracy video out there about the 9/11 events i highly recommend you watch the video.
Below is the address to the video in order to fully understand the video you must watch it all:-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change
Recently a second lengthy quotation of bin Laden's denial in the September 11, 2001 attacks was added. I recommend removing it. In brief: it adds nothing to the article and it gives undue weight to the denial statements as being truthful.
Bin Laden before September 11, 2001 boasted of his leadership of terrorist cells which had attacked the United States, and he made public threats against the United States, and consistently since December 2001 asserted al Qaeda as responsible for the attacks.
A double indirect statement (i.e. the BBC discerning "the street level in the Arab world") claims that the December 2001 tape in which bin Laden boasts responsibility for the attacks is "faked". This statement may reflect what the BCC believed the "Arab street" believed on December 14, 2001, but such an impression of a "faked" tape was transitory as bin Laden mocked the American armed forces attempting to capture or kill him in several tapes released throughout 2002. This temporary doubt of authenticity is not relevant to the attacks themselves which is the subject of the article. patsw 04:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I saw the changes to the couple of sentences trying to describe conspiracies and would like go ahead with those. Currently they do not reflect the actual theories:
1) there *are* no other theories about why the towers collapsed outside of demolition, so it is not correct to say 'something other than the airliners.' That suggests there are numerous ideas when there is really only one.
2) while most people think that some people within the US government had some role, describing that as 'government involvement' is not entirely correct - no researchers I know of implicate entire government agencies, but numerous researchers implicate powerful financiers and others along with individuals within the government. The way the section reads now implies that researchers think 'the' government is behind the attacks, or a government agency, etc. This is not correct.
current version:
"Almost immediately after the attacks conspiracy theories began to emerge. These doubts included speculation that the United States Government knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge, and other theories of government involvement. Some researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by something other than the airliners, that an airplane did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down."
change to:
"Almost immediately after the attacks conspiracy theories began to emerge. These doubts included speculation that the United States Government knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge, and other theories of government or other insider involvement. Some researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by pre-planned explosives, that an airplane did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down."
Also . . . this part "speculation that the United States Government knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge" has an interesting twist in today's trial:
"FBI agents acknowledged under cross-examination that the bureau knew years before Sept. 11 that al-Qaida had plans to use planes as missiles to destroy prominent buildings. They also acknowledged numerous missed opportunities in the months before Sept. 11 to catch two of the hijackers with terrorist links known to the government, even though the pair frequently used their own names in the U.S. to rent cars, buy plane tickets and even, once, to file a police report after one got mugged." [3]
At what point does the fact that the agencies 'knew' stop becoming a 'conspiracy theory'? Bov 07:15, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I've just did a quick review of the article and cleaned up the references, including removing some linkspam and dead links. All of the references in the article are now using [Wikipedia:Footnotes]] format. When editing the article and adding references, please use this format. Also, any erroneous linkspam will be summarily deleted without warning. Dr. Cash 21:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I want to add this link http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/ to the section Victims and damage under external links. The link not only includes a list of names, but also provides submitted photos in tribute to the victims. What do you guys think? -- Ryz05 22:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I have just watch this video on conspiracies regarding 9/11 Video. I mean no disrespect to anyone who was affected by 9/11 but can someone watch the video and see if its claims are at all legitamite? Tutmosis 04:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html
Knock yourself out. -- Mmx1 05:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see an explaination for the puffs of smoke below the collapse and the broken windows in the lobby of 1 or 2. Those are about the only things left for me to debunk in my mind, that and WTC7's a little shaky. Maybe this site will help [www.911myths.com]. C. Nelson 06:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Why are we removing indications that OBL was responsible? [ See diff].
Ordering? I asked you (with a please!) not to remove well-cited information that states the mainstream opinion, and kept your classified (non-public) caveat. Why delete the fact that OBL first denied and later admitted to it? Looks like you're the one reading bad faith into my edits.
-- Mmx1 09:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
(I will not get in a revert war, I'm a discusser, not a boxer, as you can see by my history of almost 8,000 edits without any negative remarks about my POV and similar issues)
Would This Conspiracy Video be good to put in the article?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Buckshots35 ( talk • contribs)
"History is written by those who hang heros."
Check the sources of the current 9/11 post. There is no scientific evidence to support these claims. Only that they are official. Where is the pride? Wikipedia is suppressing the truth by not following its own content criteria rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About#Wikipedia_content_criteria
What are you afraid of? Look at the patriots of today, and ask if they are lying?
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Standish7 ( talk • contribs)
Here is another guy you can bunch with me and call "nut-case" and other degrading words: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/200306charliesheen.htm]. Just keep doing that, keep ignoring WP:NPOV and keep saying "we stick to the White house theory, no mater what. And by the way, its not even a theory, its the truth with capital T". -- Striver 02:27, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
here i was on my way to post something, but i figuered there is no point. -- Striver 03:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we're basically regurgitating the mainstream perspective on the story, but that's because it's the viewpoint that is closest to the truth. Many (but not all) of the conspiracy theories have been debunked and more are based purely on speculation (which doesn't belong in the wikipedia) or no evidence at all (like the remote controlled aircraft theory... i admit, strawman... but it's so easy when there are sooo many of them). C. Nelson 06:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
http://www.september11news.com/InternationalImages.htm
fine a link to them 132.241.245.49 06:46, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
A woman, her name was Debra Reeve, has just died of lung cancer from toxic dust inhalation from working near ground zero after the attacks. She is the 20th person to die long after the attacks and have her death blamed on the dust cloud from the collapsing building. This controversy has received a little bit of notice over the previous years, and there's a couple pending court cases of victims alleging that the dust cloud caused them health problems. Should these people be included in the death tally (putting the total over 3,000)? LockeShocke 15:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Why call it a controversy? Are there people advocating that such people die? The dust cloud was an irritant, and perhaps a carcinogen but not toxic. The key word is blame. People can get lung cancer from other sources, unless there's a finding in a court case that attributes Reeve's death to the terrorist attacks, the connection cannot be asserted in the article. Regarding the "death tally", the Wikipedia itself is not an official source. patsw 15:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I am new here, but after reviewing the archives, I see this guy MONGO having a monopoly on the "truth". As I read WP, the truth is not what is purported here. Rather it presents viewpoints that are verifiable (reported by reputable published sources) or which have prominent adherents. Yet MONGO et al muzzle viewpoints which have no less paucity and which are supported by similar or even more numerous verifiable sources.
I suggest that if a source is found in error repeatedly (an euphemism for caught in a lie) such sources should be discredited as a verifiable (using WP criterion above). This alone should cut the size of these articles significantly.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT PLANES CAUSED THE COLLAPSE OF THE WTC.
The government NIST report, cited elsewhere in this WP article is very clearly not intended to FIND OUT WHAT CAUSED the collapse (true). As a matter of fact, it fails the WP criteria above, since this group it has no role, history or expertise in building collapse or airplane crash investigations ( http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/nist_mission.htm), and its work was not peer reviewed. As a matter of fact ( http://www.ntsb.gov/Abt_NTSB/history.htm), the one agency with expertise in both causal investigations and airplane crashes, the NTSB, was noticeably absent from the NIST "investigation". The NIST study details one POSSIBLE way the collapse COULD have happened (wouldn't they have the best opinion since they had the most evidence?).
To state that the NIST concluded that the aircraft crashing into the buildings or the resulting fire CAUSED the collapse is a misrepresentation of that report. The NIST report is a theory of how the collapse may have been caused by the crashes. I suggest those advancing POV read the NIST report.
It's easily provable that this report wasn't an investigation at all. NFPA 921, "Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations", clearly outlines the steps for a proper investigation in agreement with the scientific process. (Maybe this is obvious to me becase I was a U.S. federal investigator)
(excerpts of NFPA 921-2001)
2.3.2 Define the Problem. ...a proper origin and cause investigation should be conducted. This is done by an examination of the scene and by a combination of other data collection methods, such as the review of previously conducted investigations of the incident, the interviewing of witnesses or other knowledgeable persons, and the results of scientific testing.
2.3.4 Analyze the Data (Inductive Reasoning). All of the collected and observed information is analyzed by inductive reasoning: the process in which the total body of empirical data collected is carefully examined in the light of the investigator’s knowledge, training, and experience.
This is not what was done. (tax payer $s at work)
Many are stating that there is not a shred of evidence for controlled demolition. I posit that there is not a shred of evidence for airplanes or fire causing the collapse. There are ample VERIFIABLE (by WP standards)sources for and which would justify the prominence of, a theory of explosives causing the collapse. (I read not less than six stories detailing the trail of the israelis who high-fived each other as the buildings collapsed, whose van had traces of explosives, and some of which were identified as intelligence agents). how is that linked with a possible demolition of the WTC?
Just because a majority of people do not have the intellectual latitude to challenge the appearances, this should not rightly, or by WP criteria, cause other verifiable and credible hypotheses from being given equal weight.
One person even likened disagreement with the majority view as denying the Holocaust! Hardly could I find more blatant dishonesty or partiality towards a single POV. Apparently, some here are more concerned with squashing opposing viewpoints while serving as standard bearers for a pre-ordained story line! Mudawangos 23:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Millions of people across the globe watched the planes hit the Towers on live television, and thousands of New Yorkers watched it happen with their own eyes. There is no question that two jumbo jets hit the Towers -- all of us watched in horror as it happened in real time. Claims to the contrary are just not credible, and have no place on Wikipedia. Morton devonshire 19:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
"Just because a majority of people do not have the intellectual latitude to challenge the appearances..." First of all, using big words doesn't make you smarter than everyone else. Second, unless you arguement is based on a philosophy that nothing we percieve truly exists, then, yeah dude, the planes crashed into the towers. That's what those metal bird-like things you see in the video are. Controlled demolition my ass.... slimdavey
Guys, he didnt mean that the planes did not hit the tower, he said the hit did not cause the collapse, and that there is no evidence for that. The video show that the planes hit the tower, and that there was a great fireball that lasted 15 seconds and that the towers fell after 50 minutes. What he means is that there is no evidence that the 15 second fireball caused the frefall of the towers 50 minutes later. That conclusion is not scientific sound, neither is it peer viewed.
Here, the its now mainstream prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/230306Sheen_CNN.htm]. You can no longer pretend that it is a insignificant minority that hold that view, it is a significant minority that dispute that theory, and claiming the "fire brought down the towers" is factual is a violation of WP:NPOV. Also, the majority of other parts of the world reject that theory. The people claiming fires made the tower fall have nothing more than a theory, they show no evidence to support it. -- Striver 22:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Prisonplanet? Im talking about CNN, not prisonplanet. CNN themselves mentioned Alex jones, he is more notable than you or i will ever be. -- Striver 22:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Stive-man, glad to see you finally acknowledge yourself as a "crazy tin-foil-hat nutcase". I'll remember that. : ) -- Morton devonshire 01:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I have noticed that alot of this talk page has been devoted to conspiracy theories. Isn't this page simply to tell about the incident (not speculate about what happened), and provide a helpful link to a sub-page, which is only there for one thing: Conspiracy theories and speculation.
Now before you say anything else, I relize that also this page could be offending to some, however, but we must include something about what happened, and who did it. Therefore, if we just stick to one story, the government's claim (which I do not belive myself), we can reserve the other page exclusively for this type of talk.
I belive in using the way of the American court to decide matters like these: "The idea is true, until proven false." Or for lawyers: "The defendant is innocent until proven guilty."
Thank you for reading this, -- Shark Fin 101 22:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure, ill prove it false: A 15 second fireball does not cause metal to get so week that it bends. Not straight away, and most definitly not after 50 minutes. Hence, the idea is proven false. -- Striver 22:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Hold a nail over a burner flame for 60 seconds and try to bend it. Moreover, it was not an "ordinary" fire; the combustants were accelerated with fuel from the airliners. You have enough energy in that fuel load to keep a 10-ton aircraft in the air for five hours and move it 4000 miles, expended in 60 minutes. Whether expended in 15 seconds as you claim (falsely) or an hour as NIST indicates, that's more than enough to weaken steel.-- Mmx1 23:29, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
That's nice, but you aren't going to get this into the article. So why bother discussing it here? Discuss it on the conspiracy theory page.
Also, considering how fast those planes were going and how difficult it was to steer them, I am amazed that both managed to hit the one floor in each building laden with professionally installed explosives. Unless the whole building was wired, and in that case, you're talking a conspiracy of tens of thousands, instead of a conspiracy of 19. Which is more plausible? No, wait .. please don't answer that. -- Golbez 23:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into. I'm just sayin'. Tom Harrison Talk 00:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, i agree with you 100%, this article should only tell "what happened, when it happened and where it happened", not take sides on disputed evenst such as "why it happened", "who made it happened" and "how did it happened". As is now, this articles does that, it claims the offcial conspircacy theory to be factual and dedicates 0.5% of the article to represent all other views. -- Striver 03:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
What do people think of my compromise edit? JoshuaZ 05:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Pepsidrinka asked me to come here and take a look at the arguments on the talk page. Mongo, I think you're losing your balance. You can't just threaten other editors and insist that any views contradicting your own be removed. I understand your frustration, I think -- I share your view of the events and think that the conspiracy theories are tin-foil-hat kookery. If you worked at Ground Zero for six weeks, of course this is a highly emotional topic for you. That said, you aren't helping your own side by trying to impose your will. That suggests that you don't trust the strength of your case to make your points for you. I don't think that's the impression you want to give. Your wikistress levels must be stratospheric by now -- why don't you just take a break from this article for a week? You may come back and find that there are others who will shoulder the load of keeping the article factual and that you don't have to be Atlas. Or you may find that it's drifted into strange waters, in which case you could easily rally support for getting it back on track. Zora 08:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
First, the impact and the fire both contributed to the failure of the structure. Most of the conspiracy theory arguments are based on the suggestion that one or the other by itself was not sufficient to cause failure. Possibly that's true, but since the impact and the fire both happened, it's completely irrelevant.
The video clearly shows that the point of structural failure for each tower was the point of impact. There is no way explosives could have been planted there. They could not be planted before the impact because it was impossible to know precisely which floors would be the impact site. Planting explosives after the impact would require people
First of all, the South Towers main support columns where not even hit, the plane hit the building on a angle, ejecting most of its fuel outside the building. So the "the impact and the fire both contributed" is not valid to the South Tower. Sure, some exterior columns where knocked off, but they didnt do much inte the first place, just look at the picture: [11]. The outer columns that where not knocked out are in perfect condition, every one of the is parallel to the other. Except for the whole, theres not even the slightest sign of compromise in the outer columns structural integrity due to the hit. The outer columns not being affected, it is imposible to claim that the 47 interrior core columns would have been effected, they where magnitudes larger, and most importantly: 'they where not hit in the first place. Regarding the fires, take a look at the girl on the picture: [12], do you see any signt of any great fire? If they where any flames, they where not on the part that was hit and not big enough to scare off the girl.
Further, if the hit was indeed a important factor to the collaps, why was it not the North Tower that collapsed first? It was hit with a direct hit, going straight to the core columns, hower, it fell 10 minutes after the South Tower, even though it was hit 17 minutes before the South Tower. This proves that the hit was insignificant, the building not receiving the direct hit and having most of its jet fuel ejected lasted 27 minutes less.
But most importantly: Not even the official version claims that the hit gave any significant damage. They specualte that it might have blown of some of the firecoating on some of the columns, not that it maters sine i proved above that even without any firecoating on any of the columns, not even a single column would get much hoter that the boiling point of water. Not that it would mater att al anyway, considering that there was 46 other columns in case one of them would become elastic, the building had 600% redundancy.
The explosives where planed long ahead, there was 24/7 construction, of course, since the two towers where basicly a huge city with 40 000+ people in them. There was a some major contruction work the weeks before the attack, and guees who was the the cheif of security in the buildings: Marvin Bush. What a conicidence!
So there was no problem puting in the charges in advance, considering that there was a normal procedure of 24/7 reparirs and that Marvin Bush was in charge. The explosives where on multiple floors, from top to botom, as can be seen in the any video of the fall. For example, see [13], the charges go of before the fall even getting close to it.
All the arguements regarding the imposibility of planting the charges after the hit are widely employed to prove that the implosion of building 7 was also planed far ahead, and not as Larry Silverstein said:
Face it, the 40+ floor building seven was not even hit by anything, even less having any jet fuel in it, and it still imploded. Did Usama do that? Oh, and for you guys that dont belive the USA government is capable of doing big Covert operations: The Manhattan Project:
-- Striver 13:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, that was a great rebutal. Where did you stop reading? -- Striver 14:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Sure, i have no problem with that. Then on the other hand, im not saying the operation of setting the buildings with charges employed 130 000 people. Im bringing this up since there have been several calls on this talk page for evidence that discredits the official version. I just provided it, and MONGO gave me a brilliant rebutal to my points. -- Striver 14:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
No, this are the support columns: [14] [15], the ones in the middle. This is a closeup of one of 47 middle support colums [16]. Compare it to a closeup of a exterior column [17], they where not even solid [18].
As for the woman in the hole, it clearly shows that there was no "raging inferno" at the tower, there where no temperatures that could bend steel. No human can survive being even remotly close to a fire that bends the core support columns, but in the picutre of the woman, the hole is picth black, no fire in sight at all.
Here is a another picture of a explosive going of before the fall even reached it [19]-- Striver 15:36, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Everything i wrote is sourcable to multiple persons in the 9/11 truth movement. I wrote it since MONGO is claiming that the 9/11 truth movement have no valid issues to raise, so i raised some of them on a very narrow topic: "physical evidence of demolition". I could expand the issues to at least twice as many points, and there are at least 20 more issues to go. None of the points i have raised have been successfully refuted, minsters, actors, scholars, former CIA, 50% of New York, 80% of Pakistan, all of them reject the official version on valid grounds, yet it is still presented as factual. That is a blatant vioaltion of WP:NPOV as you will ever get. -- Striver 00:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The key word is "that they consciously failed ", not "that didn't do enough to stop it" Its a HUGE difference, and the missquote comes not from me. The evidence is easy, here are a few:
-- Striver 02:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC) --Comments in bold were made by C. Nelson 03:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
as for "using that photo as evidence is ridiculous since so many things could cause that puff such as structural collaspse starting to occur in that section", its not valid, since the fall was not even close to the puffs, the structural was 100% stable at the time of the puffs being ejected. It was at leas 20-30 floors in between the puff and the fall. Even if it was as you said, why did the force get ejected through a single window 20-30 floors below?-- Striver 00:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
because the core collapsed faster than the exterior. It wasn't uniformly pancaking, the inside collapsed faster [27]. You can tell because the TV antenna starts to fall before the building does. So while the outside looks fine, you have shit tumbling down the core floors ahead of the exterior. The overpressure is what's ejecting stuff through the windows. -- Mmx1 01:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Mmx1, I saw nothing of that kind being said in the link you presented. I further find the idea quite implausable. Could you source that statement?-- Striver 02:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The site is a companion to a 1-hour special that Nova ran on PBS; you should be able to find it on a torrent site, titled "Why the towers fell". I'll try to find another link. -- Mmx1 02:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that should be intresting. Im intrested on all points of view. -- Striver 02:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
How about
this? It's in the second to last paragraph. It's from a conspiracy site, and was originally in the New York Times. --
Mmx1 02:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC) --
Mmx1
02:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
There are some things that are difficult to explain.
Anamoly #1 - The lobby of the South Tower
Anamoly #2 - Multiple Puffs Occurring Below Collapse Please explain C. Nelson 05:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
C. Nelson 05:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Don't worry, all anomolies and whacked out theories are totally irrefutably debunked over at Collapse of the World Trade Center. I don't see nuthin about no suicide hijack survivors here though. Excuse me, there is something about the BBC mistakenly or something reporting some. Whats up with all that anyway? SkeenaR 05:56, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
SkeenaR, I don't see how the wikipedia page, Collapse of the World Trade Center, cleears up the specific points I made citing video and photographic evidence. I read through the article, but could you quote the parts that explain damage to the lobby or the puffs? Yes, like I said, I agree that Loose Change has really stupid theories; the BBC posted an apology to the story about the living suicide hijackers, stating that the people they found and wrote about in the article had the same name but were different from the hijackers. But I was using it for the video evidence evidence of the collapse. I, just like almost anyone who watches the isolated segments of video would, have unanswer questions about why these two anamolies occurred. I would greatly like an explanation.
C. Nelson 14:57, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I know that page doesn't clear anything up. It's just opinion, nothing more. What I was wondering is if the feds ever managed to explain the living suicide hijackers. SkeenaR 20:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, the feds published photos, not just names, of living people as suicide hijackers. Did they ever clear this up? I'm curious about this. SkeenaR 04:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's only to do with a BBC article, but I could be wrong. Thanks for this. I'll check it out. Shouldn't there be a list of these perpetrators? SkeenaR 04:53, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
84% of 40 000 voters agree with Alex Jones! See CNN voting poll [30]
This article violates WP:NPOV! -- Striver 23:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Why stop there? 100% of 33600 voters agree with Alex Jones. Tom Harrison Talk 23:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
agree with Charlie Sheen=agree with Alex Jones -- Striver 23:33, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
It's "agree with Charlie Sheen that X happened", not "agree with Charlie Sheen's views on 9-11"
Why get worked up about it? SkeenaR 00:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
As soon as I heard Sheen was on Alex Jones and that it was turning into a story, I KNEW I was going to start hearing about Cruise. Ad Hominem. As long as it wasn't agreement with officialdom and mainstreamdom it wouldn't have mattered what Sheen said. Wikidiscussion seems to have a lot in common with the media circus, namely its predictability in situations like this. But that's the thing. People can say Sheen isn't reliable or that he isn't an engineer or whatever, but as he said, he would like people to challenge him on his facts instead of using cheap smear tactics. Striver might appreciate responses like that as well. SkeenaR 00:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Charlie on CNN: prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/230306Sheen_CNN.htm]
ALEX ON CNN: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/250306showbiztonightalex.htm]
-- Striver 00:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
One major problem with the poll is that it asks whether people think that the US government covered something up. I am surprised there was not 100% agreement. Most people believe that covering up things is what the US government does. That is why it has to share power with congress, courts and press to help keep an eye on things. Had the question been on any particular conspiracy theory instead - say for example : "Do you agree with Charlie Sheen that no plane crashed into the Pentagon?" - then I am would bet that the numbers in favour would have been less than a majority. The crux is this: What are they covering up, and does it really matter to the general interpretation of this article? I have several doubts on many issues in the 9/11 issues, but I still believe that the article, at least last time I read it, seemed to show approximately what happened based on the best evidence we have so far. DanielDemaret 18:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Serious question: Is there any reason this line of argument is here and not 9/11 conspiracy theories or Collapse of the World Trade Center? There is a certain value in catologuing the intuition-based misconceptions about structural failures (sort of encyclopedic and sure to be entertaining), but it's not clear to me where the best place is. Not this article, obviously, but some consensus as to where it belongs might be helpful. Perhaps there should be an article dedicated to the topic - people other than the conspiracy nuts are probably curious about it. Peter Grey 02:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This obviously isn't the best place for discussion about structural failure or conspiracy theories, I think simply that where things are unproven it should be noted. Reported on by Fox doesn't count as verifiability. SkeenaR 03:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I think Peter Grey is right. This is not the place to address most of these topics. 9/11 conspiracy theories is actively edited, as are several other pages. Tom Harrison Talk 03:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Actively edited? Oh boy! Sounds kind of like "get the hell out of here". SkeenaR 06:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Rhetoric rhetoric. What group are you refering to? I thought I asked at least a couple of legitimate questions since I've been around here. I'm not going to push POV. I admit I could have been wrong about Tom's comment by the way. SkeenaR 07:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, but do you really think all those sites are completely worthless? I mean, for example, a lot of those sites were trying to spread the word that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and this was in the leadup to the invasion. It seems that while a lot of stuff is far fetched, fairly often the stuff is factual but the mainstream media won't touch it. If this would have been payed attention to it could possibly have prevented a lot of bad things from happening don't you think? I think some of these things should be payed attention to. Some would say that stuff like this www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/260306WWThree.htm] is the latest version. While not necessarily automatically believing it, how can one say that there is no value in listening to opinions such as this? SkeenaR 00:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
You're right, this is an encyclopedia and it shoud contain encyclopedic information. But the mainstream media and the government are highly unreliable as sources on these issues. They have proven that much. We are always being sold things on false information and it's only reported as such after it's too late. You know what I mean? SkeenaR 22:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
We'll just have to disagree on this one I guess. It was guys like Scott Ritter who were trying to sound the alarm in the example I gave the first time, there obviously was truth to it and it was only crazy conspiracy sites that payed any real attention to it. The media was not all over this, and there has been a big price. It doesn't seem that tens of thousands of investigators are enough, at least from these sources. True? SkeenaR 01:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
"While the motives behind Ritter’s criticism of US-Iraq policy have been called into question by some, he is notable as being one of the only highly knowledgeable commentators on the Iraq WMD issue who correctly predicted that Iraq did not possess any significant WMD’s prior to the 2003 war." [31] The Wikipedia article says Ritter resigned as weapons inspector. Also, how is saying "there are no WMD's there" a misrepresentation. If you can tell me, I would really like to know. Otherwise it seems pretty straight forward. SkeenaR 02:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Look, I'm not trying to put this stuff in the article, I'm not even saying that there for sure was a government coverup, I was merely trying to make the point that the government and mainstream media have proven themselves to be lousy sources for these articles. Why do you need rock solid proof of a coverup before you begin to question these sources? They're not dependable. Please don't say something like "well than, you should believe David Icke" because that's obviously no good either. This discussion might be a bit off topic, but I think it's relevant as far as sources are concerned. And I mean no offense by this, but saying that "The facts that the WMD's are not there are linked to them not finding any. That doesn't mean they aren't there, or that they weren't there..." seems like pseudoscience-by asserting claims which cannot be verified or falsified (claims that violate falsifiability) SkeenaR 02:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
This quotatiton is for Nikodemos' profile... I thought it very appropriate.
I believe that one of the major sources of POV in wikipedia articles is what I call asymmetric controversy.
An asymmetric controversy is a controversy between two sides, one of which is particularly interested in the issue and fanatical in defending its POV, while the other doesn't care about the issue a whole lot. Articles on such issues will inevitably be biased in favor of the fanatical side, because they put most effort into writing about it.
Thus, an asymmetric controversy can be described as any controversial idea that is popular enough to attract a band of loyal supporters to defend it on wikipedia, but not popular enough to attract critics. Paradoxically, this means that any idea widely considered too insane to be criticized will have a favorable article written about it, since its advocates are fanatical about the issue while its opponents consider it too crazy to bother with. Keep in mind that what makes these controversies asymmetric is not the number of people on each side, but the intensity with which they defend their views. One single-minded user with a lot of time on his hands can hold off many disinterested users at once.
Quite appropriate for those doubting the official account. They may have some interesting points, but they're in a small and concerned minority. Don't let your concern drive you to edit an article from one POV. Here's a good link with common sense about many of the conspiracy theories [32]. C. Nelson 21:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Have another look ;) SkeenaR 06:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I must say, that was a intresting link, the first one i see that acctualy tries to talk about the issues. I dont agree with everything they stated, but they made a few good points.-- Striver 23:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
"The truth deserves nothing less" SkeenaR 23:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
i love it when someone does not even bother to read something, but decides its conpiracy-crap :D -- Striver 02:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I haven't heard about this testimony. Is it reliable? SkeenaR 05:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
The conspiracy folks are on it.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/280306_b_Nut.htm]prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/280306_b_belt.htm] SkeenaR 23:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Timothy who? SkeenaR 22:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I presume McVeigh. It's reliable that Moussaoui said what he said...is Moussaoui reliable? Not for me to decide. -- Mmx1 23:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
MONGO, don't feel like you're alone in your thoughts here. When I first saw this page and the 9/11 conspiracy theories page, I went nuts. What I learned, however, is that Wikipedia has very strange rules, which results in a strange phenom -- that it doesn't matter what the truth is, just whether you've followed the Wiki rules or not, and the Wiki rules are flawed, because they don't favor facts. Strange place Wikipedia is. Never will be a real encyclopedia unless sourcing and fact-checking flaws are fixed. You'll learn that there are several pages on Wikipedia that are guarded by POV guard dogs, like this one, and trying to edit them is like peeing in the wind. If you need help supporting your perspective, drop me a line on my talk page. Also, both Skee and Striver are good guys -- even if they took the blue pill rather than the red one. Have fun, but don't take this place too seriously -- it's just entertainment. Cheers. Morton devonshire 08:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Blue pill? C'mon, I was pointing out that official or mainstream sources for the articles on this stuff are poor. And that it's probably wise to not just dismiss everything else out of hand. [33] That's all. How crazy is that? If you don't automatically buy the government story of the week, it's the "that guy believes lizard people rule the world" label for you. It's crap people, crap. These articles are not easy. And this UFO Kool-Aid stuff seems like a cheap diversion. SkeenaR 21:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate Morton's lightness on this matter, but I don't completely agree. This isn't a benign issue like Bigfoot or UFO's, in which misinformation about these items hurts no one. This is article space regarding events of stupendous violence in which thousands of people died...I take the situation here as seriously as anyone might if they were a survivor of a Nazi death camp and someone was posting information that the Holocaust never happened. It's benign to believe in UFO's...all one does is look silly. It's completely the opposite to go around spewing nonsense gathered from worthless websites that propose a government coverup regarding the events of 9/11. While I appreciate questions arguing that the "official" story about the events of 9/11 may be inaccurate, it is completely objectionable to try and put speculation that the government was behind this matter (based on zero proof) in article space in a main article such as this one. It's not like I just showed up at Wikipedia... [34], so any learning about POV watchdogs and POV pushers happened long ago. Thanks anyway, Morton, for the kind words.-- MONGO 03:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
"I appreciate Morton's lightness on this matter, but I don't completely agree. This isn't a benign issue like Bigfoot or UFO's, in which misinformation about these items hurts no one."-I share this opinion. Here is another interesting quote-"I blame the media for failing to ask any questions. I blame them for failing to let us know whether the war was well researched, so we could make an educated decision whether or not to support it." SkeenaR 21:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I think what's unfortunate is how the conspiracy nonsense has pre-empted rational discussion. Arguing does nothing - buildings fall down because of physics, not by consensus. Some questioning of the events would be healthy and useful. But hysterical conjectures based on fear and amateur engineering are not helpful, and just create a lot of noise that prevents worthwhile discussion. (Like the worthwhile discussion that's not happening here.) Peter Grey 06:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
You just started the controlled demolition talk again Peter. SkeenaR 21:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and here is a quote from a firefighter, for your benefit:
-- Striver 13:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Again, I see fire in the image from your website you keep using as a reference, above the person. The other image was taken at night. Black smoke equals chemical or fuel fire, white smoke equals paper or wood fire. Again...you seem to know nothing about how the WTC was built...and no one has claimed that solid steel had to melt in the correct reports. I went to an engine academy Striver and fought forest fires for the NPS for a dozen years. Even forest fires get hot enough to melt an automobile. You know absolutely nothing about fire and that is apparent to me.-- MONGO 14:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Be polite, Mongo. C. Nelson 07:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The centre of the fire, obviously, was hotter than the edges (wouldn't the edges have more oxygen? I'm not a fire engineer though). It seems that Striver is asserting that buildings can't fall down except deliberately. That's a statement of faith - and it's not true in the real world. It's like saying the Titanic couldn't sink. Some people did say that; they were wrong. When engineers design a building to withstand an airplane collision, it doesn't mean they replace a few windows and everyone goes back to their desk the next day, it means the building stays standing long enough to be evacuated. 95% of the time. If your intuition is telling you something different, it's because intuition gets it wrong in situations like this. There's a reason that it's illegal for amateurs to engineer buildings. Peter Grey 16:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
The buildings were designed to withstand a low speed impact from a similar sized aircraft that may have gotten lost in the fog and flying at much less than 200mph...not a high speed impact flying into the building at 490 and 590 mph respectively. No one knows how much damage was done to the towers internal steel...my guess would be that it was signicant...no one was able to use the elevators or the stairwells (all in the middle of the structures) to get down in the North Tower...that should clearly indicate that the internal damage was signicant.-- MONGO 09:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
MONGO, take a look at this guy: Kevin Ryan.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Striver ( talk • contribs)
I'm not understanding what relevance this ongoing conversation has to improving this article. Perhaps you would like to take it to the conspiracy page? Wikipedia is not a forum. Please shift this to improving the article, rather than arguing over the physics of the matter. Putting this in to the article is, at present, non-negotiable. Work on the conspiracy article first. -- Golbez 15:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's an idea: let's archive what we've got, and any new discussion that doesn't belong can be cut-and-pasted to Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories. Peter Grey 18:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The point: this article is pov. Polls prove it. Common sense proves it. Kevin Ryan proves it. This article is P O V. MONGO whent "no evidence of being pov". I gave it. Now, NPOV the article. -- Striver 00:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Kevin Ryan tests water, not steel. I see you're a .NET programmer. It's the equivalent of you giving some insight into Java programming because you work for a company that does Java. -- Mmx1 00:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
The article is fairly neutral....it's the trolling by conspiracy theorists on this talk page that demand to have unencyclopedic nonsense in main article space...oh, yeah...the U.S. Government blew up the buildings...yeah...the planes weren't hijacked by 19 islamofascist terrorists...the Pentagon was hit by a missle...yeah...the plane that crashed in Pennyslvania was shot down by the government...yeah...that's what really happened, surely. This Kevin Ryan guy probably got fired because he has half a brain and upset over his termination he made up this cock and bull nonsense to try and even the score...but more likely his employers realized he was a fool when he went to them with his "evidence".-- MONGO 03:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Here are a list of headings that have nothing to do with improving the article. I suggest we archive, tell people to move this "debate", if it can be called that, to the conspiracy page.
C. Nelson - This seems to me like a no brainer. Discussion is off track.
Or perhaps someone wants to refactor? If people are still debating this during the summer, I'd be happy to refactor the archives... perhaps move all the conspiracy discussions to one archive.
I moved all the discussion to Archive 15, aside from this one and the latest thread.-- MONGO 09:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Breath of fresh air. nice. --
Mmx1
15:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I'm new here at the Wikipedia. But, when reading this article, I noticed that instead the typical "Controversy" sub-secction found in many of this Enciclopedia's articles, there's one called "Conspiracy Theories". This name is itself biased and in my opinion should be replaced by the typical and unbiased term "Controversy". I tryied to change this, but my edit was removed, what is the right procedure to do this?
Normal nick 00:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Controversies sections exist where there are some common facts and opinions differ on their interpretation and significance. So the decision to drop the bomb on Hiroshima is controversial. Use of steroids in baseball is controversial. The gap between the facts according to the 9/11 commission and the conspiracy theories is too large to be considered a controversy. patsw 05:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Refusing to use the word controversy and insisting on using the tag 'conspiracy theorist' unquestionably has an undeserved credibility bashing effect on anyone who expresses ideas or views that may contradict the 'official story' or mainstream media. I think this is intentional in many cases. And there are many credible sources outside of these. SkeenaR 19:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I think it is up to you to show why conspiracy theory is not suitable for a title. Tom Harrison Talk 21:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Some of the unofficial theories appear to have supporting evidence while others appear to have none. Many claims of the official account seem to be legitimate while others seem unsubsantiated. But one thing is certain, and that is there is much controversy - obviously. SkeenaR 04:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Our own article Conspiracy theory states the problems with using the term: "The term "conspiracy theory" is used by scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, having certain regular features, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with certain naive methodological flaws. The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss allegedly misconceived, paranoid or outlandish rumors."
If there was nothing to cover up, why was there no crime scene investigation at the WTC site, why was the evidence meticulously removed? Why is there no picture whatsoever showing commercial airline markings on any of the planes that were alleged to have been commercial airliners? Of course its a conspiracy, of course there are theories and this article is nothing but conspiracy theories... but use of that term is a pejorative, freighted with the meaning "nutty speculation". The entire article needs a rewrite to become credible and NPOV, we shouldn't pick and choose as to whose speculations and assertions are more credible, just report facts based on evidence. But anything counter to the official 9/11 commission report is sent of to the Kid's Table. What if we had written an article on the Kennedy assassination, not including anything contrary to the Warren Commission Report??? Pedant 23:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Our own article Conspiracy theory states the problems with using the term: "The term "conspiracy theory" is used by scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, having certain regular features, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with certain naive methodological flaws. The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss allegedly misconceived, paranoid or outlandish rumors." Pedant 23:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Normal nick 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Normal nick 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The points of view Normal nick speaks of have no basis in fact...they are just nonsense...and that is why they are not in this article.-- MONGO 03:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Normal nick 03:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Asserting that you work for the USDHS is as ridiculous as me saying I'm the President's Head Secret Service Agent. Unless you are editing non-anonymously, AS the person who works for USDHS, and as a witness, which you aren't so that point is just plain bs. Since there is ample footage of the impact and events leading up to the impact at the Pentagon, there should be a picture of a commercial airliner just prior to it hitting the Pentagon. There ARE pictures, and if they did show such an image, they would very likely have been released. There being as you say "no evidence that proves implosion" is no more cogent than me saying "it is physically impossible for a building of that type to collapse in that way from jet fuel fires", and there is ample evidence that indicates that controlled demolition by pre-placed charges is more likely than the assertion that a building specifically designed' to withstand a similar impact -- with a greater fuel payload, on a day with MORE wind load, with more static weight load of people in the building -- just collapsed, like no other building in history ever has, and in complete contradiction to the laws of physics", and that the 2 buildings next to it also collapsed the same way, the first 3 steel framed buildings to have all their steel melt at temperatures far lower than the melting point of such steel, all 3 buildings crumbling to dust. Ignoring one scientist in favor of another is a POV violation. Not to mention that one of the towers began to topple to the side and then turned to dust and fell straight down at freefall speeds, in complete violation of conservation of angular momentum. Lastly, if you work for the USDHS, what is your job? Lurking on wikipedia and frustrating attempts by other editors to write a factually based unbiased article? If you know something that would definitely prove that a commercial airliner hit the Pentagon, you should make it public, not brag about it backstage at Wikipedia. Pedant 23:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Then go put that junk in the conspiracy theory page...saying how something looked is a bit POV, no? Gee...sure looks like controlled demolition...is not encyclopedic. I'm not neutral? How do you figure that? If I know the facts and a bunch on nonsense oushing POVer's come here and I do what I can to keep their nonsense out of an encyclopedic article, then I am ensuring a close following of the undue weight clause of WP:NPOV. Do you have proof of controlled demolition? Okay...see you around then.-- MONGO 04:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Changing the title from conspiracy theories to controversies makes the title inaccurate. Conspiracy theories is the accurate description of these speculations. This particular collection of conspiracy theories is about 9/11. 9/11 conspiracy theories is entirely correct for an article title, and for the section that points the reader to that article. Tom Harrison Talk 15:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with keeping the title "conspiracy theories" primarily for it's relationship with the article 9/11 conspiracy theories. To change the title of this section would mean to change the title and inference of that page. -- Zleitzen 15:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I endorese Normal nick suggestion and arguemnets for renaming the section to "controversy". Many of the points are based on facts, such as the facts mentioned by Kevin Ryan. Such as the fact of firefighters reporting explosives. Such as the fact that the fireball could not have traveled 1100 feets down to the lobby, and even if it did, it could not create the damage there was there. Such as the fact that no steel framed building have collapsed before or after that. Such as the fact that wtc7 was no hit by a any airplain. Such as the fact that the only three steelframed buildings that collpased in history due to supposed fire, collpased on the same day and where owned by the same guy. Such as the fact that no airplain engines where recovered from pengagon. Such as the fact that pentagon has no released the photo of any plane. Such as the fact that NORAD stood down. Such as, aaah who cares, MONGO does not care for facts, he is not even reading this, he will just repeat i have "zero facts"... -- Striver 18:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
You got People questioning the official American 9/11 account, and you say there is no controversy? All those people are not conspiracy theorist, many of them just dont buy the 9/11 Commissions account and whant a new and independent investigation. -- Striver 18:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The paper (below) has undergone modifications and a second set of peer reviews
This article is pov, NPOV it!-- Striver 12:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Thousands of people did not coordiante that lie, almost all stated that the house fell due to explosives the first days, it was first after the official lie was put on the news that people started to parrot it. -- Striver 17:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Mongo, I'm curious about a couple of things and was wondering if you could enlighten me a bit. I assume by USDHS you mean Homeland Security. I noticed that the Popular Mechanics article on 9/11 was written by Ben Chertoff, the cousin of Secretary Chertoff of Homeland Security. Of course I can't say for sure that there is a connection here, but what I was wondering is if it is a policy of Homeland Security to maintain a presence in spaces such as this one, or if you are operating here in a professional capacity. It would be interesting to hear about this from you if you work for Homeland Security. SkeenaR 23:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is an interesting article:
"The War Department is planning to insert itself into every area of the Internet from blogs to chat rooms, from leftist web sites to editorial commentary. Their rapid response team will be on hair-trigger alert to dispute any tidbit of information that challenges the official storyline." " The article is clearly biased, but the Rumsfeld quotes and information are interesting.
SkeenaR 22:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Here's another one about this. "examples of information war listed in the report include the creation of “Truth Squads” to provide public information when negative publicity, such as the Abu Ghraib torture scandal, hits US operations, and the establishment of “Humanitarian Road Shows”, which will talk up American support for democracy and freedom" [37] SkeenaR 02:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I doubt Parks would be interested, but the other feds might give you the big bucks, especially if you show them some your work. It looks like a growth industry for sure. Have you written anything about motorized use? If so, where can I find it? BTW, if you are interested, here's that Popular Mechanics article. [38]. SkeenaR 03:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
As I understand it (maybe I'm missing something) this 6492 word debate has been over "conspiracy theory" versus "controversy". By any objective measure, there is no case for claiming a good-faith controversy. There are many legitimate questions that can, and should, be asked, conclusions that should be double-checked, and so on. The conspiracy theorists do not do that - they give us nonsense like "a puff a smoke proves there were demolition charges and therefore a conspiracy", when the photographs clearly show dust falling, not heated gas rising. And if I may add a personal comment, I find it absolutely disgusting that people would attempt to co-opt the deaths of thousands of innocent people merely to provide an outlet for their paranoid delusions. Peter Grey 06:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you mean like Barry Zelman, who lost his brother, and Bob Mcalvane, who lost his son, and both participant in the The Citizens' Commission on 9-11, claiming the USA government is responsible? -- Striver 13:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)