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Why does it say terrorists im sure many people do not see these men as terrorists it should be changed to something neutral as well as any phrases that are not NPOV ( LeoniDb 03:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC))
Oh my God! What kind of an idiot thinks that the event of 9/11 wasn't the work of terrorism? I am stupified by the stupidity of such a thought process. I also see that this is another article that cannot be edited. Is there anyone out there that can get the stupid copnspiracy theory junk out of this article? Please help me get this lunacy out of these articles!-- Beguiled 22:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I agree that abortion clinic bombers and Tim McVeigh are/is terrorists. The fit the definition just as much as the 19 terrorists hijackers do.-- Beguiled 22:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
But all content matters are subject to policy, which trumps personal opinion. Moscatanix 23:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
"Terrorist" is an emotionally charged term, but it can also be used objectively and neutrally - that's the difficulty with the word. Nonetheless, the 11 September attacks were undeniably terrorism (attacking highly symbolic and sentimental targets, and murdering non-combattants in the process), therefore the perpetrators were terrorists. However, it would be worth mentioning (where verifiable) that some consider them first as freedom fighters or crusaders or whatever, and as terrorists incidentally. (They don't stop being terrorists, of course, but the viewpoint deserves a mention, no matter how distasteful.) Peter Grey 03:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Discussion of terrorism should form a large part of this article as this event was certainly the start of the War on Terror and the event was described as terrorist by many international commentators and world leaders. However, Wikipedia cannot neutrally describe any event as terrorist in its narrative voice. Not Hiroshima, not Dresden and not 9/11. While the article remains in its current state, employing judgemental opinion terms in its lead in, the neutrality of the entire article is in question. Curtains99 18:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
What else would we call the terrorists but terrorists? Outrageous.-- Beguiled 22:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Curtains99 11:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)series of airline hijackings and suicide attacks committed by 19 militants associated with the Islamic extremist group al-Qaeda against targets in the United States. The attacks caused extensive death and destruction and triggered an enormous U.S. effort to combat terrorism.
Thank you for providing that quote. As mentioned above 'Islamic militant suicide hijackers' is not only less POV but also more descriptive. Sparsefarce 21:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it is important to say at the beginning that this was an act of terrorism, or that the men who did it were terrorists. This is true, and is the terminology used by reliable sources. Calling them something else is not neutrality, it is promoting a political view. Tom Harrison Talk 00:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Given the definition of NPOV, "where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one," I think there is an easy solution to this problem. Why do we not just agree to write something like "viewed in the popular US and UK media as terrorists, a view that is disputed by some as being grounded in self-interest" or something to that effect? -- Howtoeatrat 21:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
As an admins who watches RPP and looks through request, I cannot in good conscience respond to the unprotection request. It is my personal opinion that the word "terrorists" is an NPOV description of what happened. Terrorists=ones who cause terror. What do you call crashing planes into towers and the Pentagon? On the flip side, I obviously don't edit this article because of this. I'll go back to staying out of this now. - Royalguard11( Talk· Desk· Review Me!) 04:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of who’s right regarding the use of the "terrorist" label, we can at least acknowledge that there is some dispute about it, both on this page and in the world at large. In other words, even if we disagree on the issue, we can agree that we disagree on the issue. Doesn’t that make this a question of opinion, according to the NPOV page’s specialized definition of the term ("a piece of information about which there is some dispute")? Maybe we should agree to concisely acknowledge multiple perspectives in the article, even if we have to do so grudgingly because we believe the correct one is clear. This seems to be what the NPOV policy asks. Jonathan Krop 19:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Peter, I do think there are indications of such a controversy. See, for instance, the BBC World Service's
decision to refrain from referring to 9/11 as a terrorist act, along with its stated reasons for this choice. And of course, there are people who rejoiced at the 9/11 attacks and would decry the classification of its perpetrators as terrorists. Other examples are a Google search away for anyone who wants to look. Whether or not you or I agree with these perspectives, the fact is that they're out there. We can acknowledge both sides of the "terrorist" labeling dispute without slanting the article towards either. The NPOV policy counsels that we should directly assert, as a fact, only "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." I just don't think that's what we have before us here.
Jonathan Krop
02:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
It's worth asking rhetorically, what exactly is gained of any significance to the article, by describing the instigators as "19 terrorists" rather than "19 hijackers" or "19 activists" or similar. Someone will say, "It describes the act more accurately". But it doesn't - the act is thoroughly described in the article and none of this needs the word "terrorist" to make clear. The hijacking, suicide collisions, death, destruction and motives, none of this need the word "terrorist" to make clear their nature. I cannot think of another good reason to put a disputed word into an article, when it is not needed and alternative wordings exist, and when the article itself provides all the information needed for a reader to label the act and its instigators as they will. That is NPOV.
So what is the benefit of adding the term "terrorist"? To say that clinically, some people call these individuals terrorists? But that's been proposed and is disputed as inadequate. To emphasize that they definitely, conclusively, were terrorists? But that's just how one side in the war characterizes their lethal efforts. And of course, the facts (if the label were removed) speak for themselves to the reader anyhow.
I'm looking for what it is that calling them in Wikipedia's voice, "19 terrorists", as opposed to "19 something else" (with the rest of the article listing the facts for the reader to decide) would add to the article. I can see no real benefit, nothing the article would convey that it doesn't convey already. To me it seems the main motive is a desire to see these people labelled emphatically as terrorists. And that desire would be a breach of both WP:NPOV and WP:POINT. FT2 ( Talk | email) 19:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
On the question of whether "terrorist" represents a POV, can we cite outside sources? A number of prominent authors (for example, Alain Badiou) have argued that using the word is a matter of your POV? Anysignificant (as per Wikipedia's standards) disagreement on this question should lead us to consider the word POV. To act otherwise is to embrace a (second-order) POV of a certain group of persistent editors. Superabo 08:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[2] 194.125.21.99 08:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Curtains99 14:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)On one point, at least, everyone agrees: terrorism is a pejorative term. It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that is generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and would otherwise prefer to ignore. `What is called terrorism', Brian Jenkins has written, `thus seems to depend on one's point of view. Use of the term implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label terrorist to its opponent, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint.' Hence the decision to call someone or label some organization `terrorist' becomes almost unavoidably subjective, depending largely on whether one sympathizes with or opposes the person/group/cause concerned. If one identifies with the victim of the violence, for example, then the act is terrorism. If, however, one identifies with the perpetrator, the violent act is regarded in a more sympathetic, if not positive (or, at the worst, an ambivalent) light; and it is not terrorism.
Not that I'm unpatriotic, because I am patriotic and I do think the events were terrible, but doesn't the word "terrorist" imply some sort of point of view? I mean, some people do think that the people who did these attacks were heroes. I think it would be more appropriate to replace the word "terrorist" with the word "hijacker". Ian Lee 03:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The '9/11 Report' refers to the 19 hijackers as hijackers. Yes, they were also terrorists, but hijacker is the more specific term. All the hijackers were terrorists, not all the terrorists were hijackers. Hijacker is the more precise term, and therefore the correct term. Regards, Ben Aveling 01:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand this debate (nor the one "POV-terrorist" above). Did no one read the article and Wikipedia's definition of Terrorism?
MBP 17:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There is BTW also a UN general assembly resolution (A/RES/56/1, see bottom of http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/resguide/r56.htm) which says the same. MBP 19:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
How about "Islam extremeist terrorists", so we don't imply that all Muslims are terrorists. Zbl 00:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The meaning of terror according to the American [dictionary] is known. [The term] refers to any resistance to the new colonialism. In contrast, the collective and racist annihilation of peoples constitutes (according to the American dictionary) a civilized action that should not be resisted."
In the eyes of Muslims, the US is a force of oppression, thus the Muslims see what happened as divine retribution, carried out under the supervision of Allah by unknown soldiers.
Other dictionary definitions run along the lines of 'terrorism=violent action intended to terrorize' which is broad enough to include war, shock and awe etc..Terrorism: Term with no agreement amongst government or academic analysts, but almost invariably used in a pejorative sense, most frequently to describe life-threatening actions perpetrated by politically motivated self-appointed sub-state groups. But if such actions are carried out on behalf of a widely approved cause, say the Maquis seeking to destabilize the Government of Vichy France then the term 'terrorism' is avoided and something more friendly is substituted.
Terrorism CAN be pejorative (like the word fascism), and does NOT have a precise definition. What governments agree on, organisations (like the UN) decide on and newspapers print has nothing to do with this. Obviously governments have to be careful with their definitions, otherwise they may well find themselves branded with the very term they seek to define. The broad sense of the term is what matters here. The act was clearly carried out by terrorists, whether they consider themselves freedom fighters or not. It would be refreshing to have people say "Yes I'm a terrorist, but this is what I need to do", but sadly because of the nature of the world people are forced to spin everything.
This is a nonsense argument. What is a good argument is whether the term should be used in the headline, and I for one think it should not. Whilst I accept it is clearly an act of terrorism, I do not believe that such an emotive term should be used in the headline, and most definitely not the disconnected term Islamic. -- Angryjames 23:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
If this attack started the "War on Terrorism", how can it not be called terrorism? Zbl 15:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it bias to use a world recognized, or mostly world recognized term for an event that started a war with that same term in its title. Also, how nonbiased is a politcal dictionary. Anything political is biased. Zbl 02:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
A History book (neutral source) used 9/11 as an example when defining the term terrorism. THe same histroy book (rememeber the book is neutral) used the word terorrist and terrorism to refer to Al-Queda and Bin Laden. In that case, the wording may need to be changed if the word terrorist falls out of public usage, but otherwise it is fine. The term "War on Terror is not a Political solgan, it is as much a factual name as the "War of 1812" Zbl 21:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Is the noun, "terrorist," defined as "one that engages in acts or an act of terrorism [5]," appropriately used in the September 11th attacks article? Abe Froman 00:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree
Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. (emphasis added)
Disagree
Terrorist, terrorism
There is significant debate whether the term "terrorist" is a neutral description, or an opinion. Arguments for both views are summarized below.
1. The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist. This is the standard Wikipedia format "X says Y". If this is followed, the article should make it clear who is calling them a terrorist, and that the word does not appear to be used, unqualified, by the "narrative voice" of the article. In other cases, terms such as "militant(s)" may be a suitable alternative, implying a group or individual who uses force to attain their objectives. (Note: - The term is not as likely to be disputed if the person or organization verifiably and officially calls themselves "terrorist". But then this should be cited.) 2. It is often not necessary to label a group or individual as a terrorist, any more than to say "X is an evil person". Describing their acts will make clear what they are. Examples of how Wikipedia has handled terrorism can be found at: Al-Qaeda - "Al-Qaeda is the name given to an international Islamic fundamentalist campaign... The Government of the United States regards Al-Qaeda as a terrorist organization, primarily because..." Provisional Irish Republican Army - "The Provisional Irish Republican Army is an Irish Republican paramilitary organisation. The organisation has been outlawed and classified as a terrorist group in [Great Britain, Ireland, the US] and many other countries..." Contras - "The Contras were the armed opponents of Nicaragua's Sandinista Junta of National Reconstruction... The Contras were considered terrorists by the Sandinistas because many of their attacks targeted civilians." Encyclopedic:
X is on the U.S. Department of State's "Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations" list. X, identified by the Y government as responsible for the Z suicide bombings [or "who claimed responsibility for the Z suicide bombings"], is classified as a terrorist group by A, B and C [countries or bodies]. Countries A, B and C regard X as a terrorist group [because...] Not encyclopedic:
X is a terrorist group. Y, leader of the X terrorists, ... After a rapid military response, the X terrorists abandoned the hostages.
Key points have been italicized.-- Acebrock 21:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
No vote
Agree
Disagree
Comment
A while back we had suggestions about enlisting notable individuals who are well aware of 911 inconsistencies. Apart from www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/230306googlecensoring.htm famous]- Bravo Charlie! interview, in which Sheen send his regards to our fine conspiratorial editors here, pointing clearly what is a civilized perspective on commissioned edits: "It's like they want to pigeonhole all of us into conspiracy nutbags when we're not debating things that are related to UFO's bringing down the towers or Building 7 or the Pentagon and so its feels like there's things in there that we’re not the conspiracy theorists on this particular issue," or in other words: "It seems to me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four commercial airliners and hitting 75 percent of their targets: that feels like a conspiracy theory." We should certainly mention David Lynch who recently also said it decently (& non-conspiratorially) well, while describing 911 as: "event which has many questions, and no answers." Or how about pointing to well placed statements of Barbara Streisand, she had to endure quite a lot of vicious attacks from official conspiracy nuts you know? Same goes for James Brolin who once again pointed that we all know it. Then there's Sean Penn who's recent speech does strike at the heart of the matter. Anyway to avoid further "linkspam", Acebrock already did some excellent work on these and other missing topics, and my only concern with such well intended edit is whether these calls should be addressed in section about conspiracy theories… To clarify, if we backpedal a little, we may recall that in the root of truth movement and probably every other truth related site is (nothing else but a) call for new and independent investigation (so we would finally seize to conspire so ludicrously), yet this call is nowhere to be mentioned? Perhaps we could find a valid and unbiased formulation which will address these notable concerns from notable individuals without making conspiracy circus out of it? Preferably in a new section which would also reflect current public opinions… if you would kindly share your perspectives… Lovelight 14:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
So Charlie Sheen thinks that there was some conspiracy? and Sean Peen too? NO surprises here. Are they like some kind of experts or something? Like their opinions are what should be in an encyclopedia? I think I am important enough to alos have my opinion in the article, but I don't think many people here would allow my opinion to be in the article.-- Beguiled 22:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, two, but none of the rest (not that Charlie Sheen or the likes are experts). None of thir opinions are worth anymore than that from two dead flies, so it makes no difference. Opiinions are everywhere, but don't have squat to do with an encyclopedia.-- Beguiled 21:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Please add following reference, as pointed: "Immediately after the September 11 attacks U.S. officials [9] speculated on…". Lovelight 15:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems like that might go better in U.S. government response to the September 11, 2001 attacks. Tom Harrison Talk 16:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The link provided by Lovelight is not suitable for this article...haven't we repeatedly stated that this article is primarily about the events on 9/11/2001 and not the Iraq war and related subsequent events? Anyway, if that source does have a place, it is best in the U.S. government response to the September 11, 2001 attacks article.-- MONGO 23:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The Motive section seems to have an odd presentation. It starts with "According to official U.S. government sources..." - weasel words - before explaining the 1998 fatwa, which is the only really comprehensive claim of responsibility. Then the 9/11 Commission findings, which have some special credibility issues, and then Little George's inane "hatred of the freedom" nonsense. The findings of qualified experts appear last. Peter Grey 17:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Reasons to question the authenticity of this particular letter include:
The letter has other obvious problems that indicate it is a fabrication which at point is extremely amateurish. Does anyone take the following seriously?: "Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?" Who ever actually wrote the letter got carried away. And what is this Islam that the writer of the letter "calls us to" "And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language. " But Bin Laden is a fundamentalist Islamic, this letter talks about "total equality" "without regard" to even sex? Who ever wrote the letter was really having fun at that point. The letter, in an outline format that bin Laden has never used, supposedly asks us to do in numbered several things and now "stop supporting Israel" is pushed down to number 4? Come on. The whole style of the letter is a different from everything that is known to have actually come from bin Laden. 69.114.77.59 08:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
"According to official U.S. government sources..." are not weasel words, because they are sourced. From the weasel words page, in a nut shell, you should "avoid 'some people say' statements without sources." The only source for most of the info on this site, is US government sources, or news sites that quote US government sources, or videos and letters that are found by, and validated by, (wait for it...) US government sources. It's not wrong to say that the motive for this attack is described by US government sources, if they are the ones describing the motive, and we can't get other passable motives into the article. I'd go even further to say that most of the arguments in this talk page are as weak as the one made at the top of this section, saying that these are weasel words. If the only source for a section is the US government, and it's cited, then it better say that it's according to US government sources, or it's nothing more than government propaganda.— Slipgrid 20:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Do we really know, even with the sources that American Airlines Flight 77 actually crashed into the pentagon? And do we really know that the phone calls were really those of the people inside the planes? There has been much debate on what actually happened, and I don't think that we should display these events as fact if we're not almost certain that these events took place. I'm not unpatriotic or anything of the sort, but I think that we really don't know that these events occured. Ian Lee 03:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, among MANY other things, do we know that al Qaeda did these terrible things? I think, again, we should remove the things we don't know for certain (or are at least really sure of). Ian Lee 03:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not we call the attackers of 911 terrorists or something else is not important at this stage, as long as the opening of this page in its whole is much worse and clearly carries out the subjective opinion of certain people. But as long as its the US governments opinion no rules apply. Like is the case on so many issues in this world after the attacks. And now this topic is closed for editing, bye people with the very same view as the US Government official explanation. Not surprising. I beg you to stick to the fact. There were attacks, no doubt about it, but we have little proof that says muslims planned and carried out these attacks. I think it is of significant value for this Wiki that the opening is edited to be more objective. Wake up Wikipedia. Youre not supposed to be one of many tools on this "war of oil". As long as its possible to proof what happened this day I think it is very important that the people are enlightened with these facts. God doesnt exist, there is no proof about it, just like there is not enough evidence and proof that the opening on this topic is correct. The difference is that we can find proof on this issue. As long as its possible to find answers, we must find them.
84.48.86.37 22:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC) Bryan S.
Philosophically speaking the difference between "know" and "believe" is a complex issue. We must assume in order to survive.
What I'm more concerned about is the use of the term Islamic or Muslim which whilst it may be true, it implies significance beyond stating the fact. Like saying five black men robbed a bank. Yes they may have been black, but should we state it, and particularly as a headline?
-- Angryjames 23:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Due to the notable case brought against Moussaoui the segment entitled "Other potential hijackers" should be subdivided with his info first and then everyone else listed later in the segment. It is ridiculous that his name does not appear in the contents table, and you have to go out and Google around until you can get the right spelling and then come back and do a page search to find him in this article. Because he was found guilty you don't automaticlly realize that he might be included in "potential hijackers" (though once you find him there it seems a logical placement). It would aid the reader looking for his information to sub-divided the segment so they can click on his name from the contents table.--Wowaconia 18:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Something like this:
1 The attacks
Please change this, the article is currently locked against editing or I'd do it myself.--Wowaconia 18:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
No new edits have been allowed since Dec. 26. How long is this lock-out going to drag on? Now this page is becoming dated and losing credibility as there is no mention that A German Court sentenced Moroccan student Mounir al-Motassadeq to 15 years in prison for helping the September 11 suicide pilots plan their attack. Reference = http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,458610,00.html
I propose that the "Conspiracy theories" section be renamed to something along the lines of "Alternative theories". The term conspiracy theory is misleading and has negative associations. However you view it, the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy; that is to say people conspired together (in secret) to carry out the attacks. Under the true definition of the term, even the "Official version" is a conspiracy theory; theorising that Islamic extremist CONSPIRED to do it.
Furthermore, In my opinion, the negative (almost comical) associations with the term reduce the neutrality of the article.
For these reasons I believe the term is being used inappropriately.
Physicsellis 21:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Physicsellis ( talk • contribs) 21:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC).
The user obviously wants greater notice of conspiracy theories in the article, not sure why everyone is oblivious to this and treating it as "off topic discussion". I will assume good faith in that its a Friday before an extended weekend in the US and perhaps some people are tired and not noticing the obvious. Please also refrain from telling people to ignore those you do not agree with, its quite disrespectful. --
Nuclear
Zer0
21:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The term "Conspiracy Theory" is altogether a misnomer, however it has become the common term to describe alternative theories that contradict official statements, albeit pejoratively. Once again arguments here have been reduced to semantics rather than dealing with the real issues. I personally hate the term, but I see no valid alternative, except perhaps linking "9-11 Conspiracy Theories" to "9-11 Alternative Theories" which seems ridiculous. -- Angryjames 18:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Many have expressed concern over the use of the word terrorist in the article. What about the term Islamic Jihadist? Eh? Nobody should argue that one, imho. Could anyone say that the hijackers weren't that?-- SweetNeo85 05:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The term "jihad" does not necessarily mean war in the sense most of us understand it, and cannot therefore be used here. As for Islamic, that is highly inappropriate and offensive (see my other posts on this page). -- Angryjames 18:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Can an admin delete all of the links to a picture that does not exist in the article? It makes the page take a long time to load. -- BenWhitey 19:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
..sustained in Feb of 2005 sustained a 20 hour fire without much damage to its steel frame? Was that a hoax? Are Spaniards worldclass engineers that such building withstood complete burnout with fire leaving only frames behind. Or is it the other way around with World trade centers... I still don't see any reason that a single aeroplane would be given the power to take down such building, that was according to documental archive built just (and only) for withstanding terrorist attacks. And I doubt it that Spanish are better engineers, quite the opposite... -- 195.210.230.226 22:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. What the eyes see and the ears hear the mind believes. It is impossible for one plane to do that to each of the towers, especially when they were designed to withstand multiple impacts from jet liners while enduring a 150 year hurricane and 10 times the maximum load that could ever be exerted on them (i.e. the weight of people standing shoulder to shoulder on every floor multiplied by 10). Furthermore, the majority of the jet fuel was burned up in fireballs outside the building on the initial impact. This left only moderate low temperature fire (characterised by excessive smoking (oxygen deprived fire) which in no way could melt the steel. The firemen even said they could put it out with just two fire hoses right before the building mysteriously imploded (after only an hour too, gee, who writes this stuff?). At what about WTC7? If you think that buildings spontaneously collapse symmetrically and at free fall speed onto their own footprint then I suggest you read up on some basic laws of physics. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.205.77.200 ( talk) 09:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC). This page is actually not a conspiracy theory chat board. This is for discussing the maintenance of the associated encyclopedia article. No drama, no trolling, no general chatting please. This discussion thread will be removed in 3... 2... 1... — Weregerbil 09:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Indeed we're discussing facts presented and written in this very article, wouldn't you agree Weregerbil? This is a video of the Madrid Windsor Fire that lasted over 20 hours and raged with fire, contrary to what was seen with World Trade Center ... all » #7. This building survived as have every other steel framed building that has ever caught fire. This isn't about conspiracy theory, it's questioning whether those who built towers should be taken on responsibility for not so flawless job they've done. It is a structural question of a building that was built to withstand.. Minoru Yamasaki was the architect. -- 195.210.251.17 09:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
That building had reinforced concrete in its core and was not hit by a widebody jet.-- MONGO 07:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The WTC buildings also had 47 reinforced concrete support columns at their core. Furthermore, these were hermetically sealed as standard. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3281135121622917423. It's true that the out columns supported a percentage of the weight, but as the designer of the building says, it was very effective at redistributing weight in the event of damage.
No, it had 47 steel columns encased in gypsum boards, and none of that matters anyway since the columns themselves were damaged by the impact of the planes. The weight was redistributed but the subsequent fires reduced the carrying capacity of the floor trusses.-- MONGO 13:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
If an elevator shaft was damaged, then that whole shaft would have been out of order, not just the part below the plane strike point. That said, elevators should not freefall just because their cables have snapped, thanks to Elisha Otis. Do we know which of the three stages was hit? Presumably the middles ones? I guess that might have also cut power to the top stage if the power cables to it were cut? I am not an expert, but I'll have a guess that the bottom stage shut itself down for some reason, rather than actually being seriously damaged. Elevators are a really bad way to exit a damaged building. Regards, Ben Aveling 22:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is this talk page semiprotected? This is nuts. — Rickyrab | Talk 04:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Because it was being trolled by those whose primarily purpose was disruption...just guessing, of course.-- MONGO 07:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The page has been unsemiprotected. Since I succeeded at what I set out to do, I'll shut up now. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
MONGO, I see no reason to listen to anyone who makes personal attacks against me as you did here. note the edit history and how you say I got my facts wrong as usual. if that's not a personal attack then personal attacks do not exist. I admit I got one fact wrong, the person semiprotecting the page, but you still blocked Cplot without going through the normal channels, and why is adding more about the conspiracy theories POV? please explain, in full without calling them nutty, idiotic, or anything else that would be deragatory-- Acebrock 21:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow, all of this nonsense about conspiracy theories and planned demolitions. Yes, it's unusual for skyscrapers made from steel to collapse from fire. However, this was a very hot couple of fires. Furthermore, folks who were IN the danged Towers reported having seen no demolition work going on, whereas had explosives been planted beforehand some would've seen something unususual - after all, the Towers were supported by their side walls, and many folks had offices by those walls. Thus, someone's office would likely have been disturbed by the drilling or by the planting of explosives. Yes, I agree that 9/11 was a Bad Thing, and I even agree that it was a conspiracy that did it - after all, four planes don't crash for nothing - but this was a case in which skyscrapers literally burned to the ground, unlikely as it seems. I suppose those Conspiracy Theories are quite a Silly Thing indeed, and maybe their proposers should head over to Hastings and take a break - with "1066 and All That", of course. — Rickyrab | Talk 04:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering why the multimedia link that used to be on this page located at http://ia300233.us.archive.org/3/items/20041102-Last-Chance-911-Timeline/20041102-Last-Chance-911-Timeline-44min.mpg was removed. I think it is highly valuable material, and I have no agenda.
I understand that people might think this guy was agenda driven in producing this video, but it's the only one I've found that so effectively places the coverage from so many outlets together. I'd be very interested to know why this link might have been removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by K-lit ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
This page has been protected on and off for a month, and that's not good for Wikipedia in general. There is a concentrated effort to add conspiracy theory related material to this article. It makes me wonder if the effort is being organized offline. That being said, should we consider bringing an ArbCom for the 911 article itself? The objective is to have arbitrators agree conspiracy theory material should be included in the conspiracy articles, and not the main 911 article. With such a decision, the offending material could be deleted on sight, and/or the contributing editor warned or banned. Without a higher authority involved, I do not see a way to unprotect the page without edit warring. Abe Froman 17:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The page is off to arbcom, feel free to add your statements, folks. —
Rickyrab |
Talk
19:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's the Arbcom form that I used and what I had put on it, though.
Note: There may be others involved in this; it is a complicated discussion and I waded into the middle of it. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
provide diffs showing that the involved parties have been notified on their talk pages [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]
Note: Cplot, the banned user, could not be notified on account of his ban and the protection of his userpage; furthermore, obtaining a statement from him would be difficult due to the ban. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a situation of semi-protection of Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks, which is making it practically impossible for anons to submit requests for edits to the main article. It is there because people supporting conspiracy theories and people feeling that the talk page should not contain discussion of conspiracy theories are arguing with one another, and some users (I am uncertain about this) may have been banned and may be using sockpuppets. Nonetheless, I am concerned that good-faith anons are being censored by this semi-protection. Furthermore, I wonder if a ban on users excessively discussing conspiracy theories and their IPs is a good idea or not. My POV is that a) conspiracy theories are relevant to discussing the cause of 9/11, b) the discussion of conspiracy theories often disintegrates badly into soapboxing and even "whining", c)blocking all anons from editing a TALK page over the edits of a few is ridiculous, and d) the situation needs sysop help. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I have unprotected the talk page for now. I don't think you can have permanent semi-protection on a talk page without some kind of intentional discussion; leaving it protected because it might be trolled again is not a good solution. It can be reprotected if necessary.
I'm not sure exactly what the intent of arbitration would be. If you have been having problems with anons and disposable accounts using the talk page to inappropriately promote conspiracy theories rather than discuss the article itself, the most you will get out of the arbitration committee is a finding that inappropriate talk can be reverted or archived. It would be easier if you could agree among yourselves to do that. (Such an agreement would have to include most significant editors and most "sides" of the issue, of course.) Note that whether you decide to remove inappropriate comments among yourselves or ask arbcom for a ruling, in the end it will come down to the editors here needing to agree on which comments should be removed, since arbcom won't do it for you.
If the problem is disruptive editing by regular editors then you can file an arbitration request, although the committee will expect you to show prior attempts at dispute resolution, such as an RFC. Good luck. Thatcher131 21:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The image of the lightpole on the cab it covering the text, I tried to fix it but I can't see the anything about the image when I click edit page...sorry I'm a bit of a wiki noob. Patmagroin1289 13:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I wish to bring up the issue of al-Qaeda taking part in attacks. There is no reference as to evidence of al-Qaeda being affiliated with the attacks. I believe that we should only have hijackers in the article and no mention of al-Qaeda actually doing it. There can be the theory of al-Qaeda doing it, but not saying that they actually did it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soten355 ( talk • contribs) 02:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
I think it would be good to have in the main article other possible hypothesis than the ones expressed in the 9/11 Comission. For example in the case of the Madrid bombings of March 11, in the Spanish Wikipedia [23], there is room for different studies, backed up with sources. -- 165.138.169.33 21:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The sentence at issue is:
The economy of Lower Manhattan ground to a halt, as billions of dollars worth of office space was damaged or destroyed.
The question is "what was destroyed." Office space was destroyed.
That's rather a strangely constructed sentence, when you look at it.
Looking further, what does it mean? Billions to construct? No. Billions to rent? For how long? Billions to replace? That might better.
The economy of Lower Manhattan ground to a halt. Office space which would cost billions of dollars to replace was damaged or destroyed.
That's my suggestion. Wowest ( talk) 15:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 |
Why does it say terrorists im sure many people do not see these men as terrorists it should be changed to something neutral as well as any phrases that are not NPOV ( LeoniDb 03:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC))
Oh my God! What kind of an idiot thinks that the event of 9/11 wasn't the work of terrorism? I am stupified by the stupidity of such a thought process. I also see that this is another article that cannot be edited. Is there anyone out there that can get the stupid copnspiracy theory junk out of this article? Please help me get this lunacy out of these articles!-- Beguiled 22:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I agree that abortion clinic bombers and Tim McVeigh are/is terrorists. The fit the definition just as much as the 19 terrorists hijackers do.-- Beguiled 22:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
But all content matters are subject to policy, which trumps personal opinion. Moscatanix 23:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
"Terrorist" is an emotionally charged term, but it can also be used objectively and neutrally - that's the difficulty with the word. Nonetheless, the 11 September attacks were undeniably terrorism (attacking highly symbolic and sentimental targets, and murdering non-combattants in the process), therefore the perpetrators were terrorists. However, it would be worth mentioning (where verifiable) that some consider them first as freedom fighters or crusaders or whatever, and as terrorists incidentally. (They don't stop being terrorists, of course, but the viewpoint deserves a mention, no matter how distasteful.) Peter Grey 03:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Discussion of terrorism should form a large part of this article as this event was certainly the start of the War on Terror and the event was described as terrorist by many international commentators and world leaders. However, Wikipedia cannot neutrally describe any event as terrorist in its narrative voice. Not Hiroshima, not Dresden and not 9/11. While the article remains in its current state, employing judgemental opinion terms in its lead in, the neutrality of the entire article is in question. Curtains99 18:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.
What else would we call the terrorists but terrorists? Outrageous.-- Beguiled 22:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Curtains99 11:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)series of airline hijackings and suicide attacks committed by 19 militants associated with the Islamic extremist group al-Qaeda against targets in the United States. The attacks caused extensive death and destruction and triggered an enormous U.S. effort to combat terrorism.
Thank you for providing that quote. As mentioned above 'Islamic militant suicide hijackers' is not only less POV but also more descriptive. Sparsefarce 21:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it is important to say at the beginning that this was an act of terrorism, or that the men who did it were terrorists. This is true, and is the terminology used by reliable sources. Calling them something else is not neutrality, it is promoting a political view. Tom Harrison Talk 00:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Given the definition of NPOV, "where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one," I think there is an easy solution to this problem. Why do we not just agree to write something like "viewed in the popular US and UK media as terrorists, a view that is disputed by some as being grounded in self-interest" or something to that effect? -- Howtoeatrat 21:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
As an admins who watches RPP and looks through request, I cannot in good conscience respond to the unprotection request. It is my personal opinion that the word "terrorists" is an NPOV description of what happened. Terrorists=ones who cause terror. What do you call crashing planes into towers and the Pentagon? On the flip side, I obviously don't edit this article because of this. I'll go back to staying out of this now. - Royalguard11( Talk· Desk· Review Me!) 04:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of who’s right regarding the use of the "terrorist" label, we can at least acknowledge that there is some dispute about it, both on this page and in the world at large. In other words, even if we disagree on the issue, we can agree that we disagree on the issue. Doesn’t that make this a question of opinion, according to the NPOV page’s specialized definition of the term ("a piece of information about which there is some dispute")? Maybe we should agree to concisely acknowledge multiple perspectives in the article, even if we have to do so grudgingly because we believe the correct one is clear. This seems to be what the NPOV policy asks. Jonathan Krop 19:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Peter, I do think there are indications of such a controversy. See, for instance, the BBC World Service's
decision to refrain from referring to 9/11 as a terrorist act, along with its stated reasons for this choice. And of course, there are people who rejoiced at the 9/11 attacks and would decry the classification of its perpetrators as terrorists. Other examples are a Google search away for anyone who wants to look. Whether or not you or I agree with these perspectives, the fact is that they're out there. We can acknowledge both sides of the "terrorist" labeling dispute without slanting the article towards either. The NPOV policy counsels that we should directly assert, as a fact, only "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." I just don't think that's what we have before us here.
Jonathan Krop
02:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
It's worth asking rhetorically, what exactly is gained of any significance to the article, by describing the instigators as "19 terrorists" rather than "19 hijackers" or "19 activists" or similar. Someone will say, "It describes the act more accurately". But it doesn't - the act is thoroughly described in the article and none of this needs the word "terrorist" to make clear. The hijacking, suicide collisions, death, destruction and motives, none of this need the word "terrorist" to make clear their nature. I cannot think of another good reason to put a disputed word into an article, when it is not needed and alternative wordings exist, and when the article itself provides all the information needed for a reader to label the act and its instigators as they will. That is NPOV.
So what is the benefit of adding the term "terrorist"? To say that clinically, some people call these individuals terrorists? But that's been proposed and is disputed as inadequate. To emphasize that they definitely, conclusively, were terrorists? But that's just how one side in the war characterizes their lethal efforts. And of course, the facts (if the label were removed) speak for themselves to the reader anyhow.
I'm looking for what it is that calling them in Wikipedia's voice, "19 terrorists", as opposed to "19 something else" (with the rest of the article listing the facts for the reader to decide) would add to the article. I can see no real benefit, nothing the article would convey that it doesn't convey already. To me it seems the main motive is a desire to see these people labelled emphatically as terrorists. And that desire would be a breach of both WP:NPOV and WP:POINT. FT2 ( Talk | email) 19:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
On the question of whether "terrorist" represents a POV, can we cite outside sources? A number of prominent authors (for example, Alain Badiou) have argued that using the word is a matter of your POV? Anysignificant (as per Wikipedia's standards) disagreement on this question should lead us to consider the word POV. To act otherwise is to embrace a (second-order) POV of a certain group of persistent editors. Superabo 08:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[2] 194.125.21.99 08:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Curtains99 14:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)On one point, at least, everyone agrees: terrorism is a pejorative term. It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that is generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and would otherwise prefer to ignore. `What is called terrorism', Brian Jenkins has written, `thus seems to depend on one's point of view. Use of the term implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label terrorist to its opponent, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint.' Hence the decision to call someone or label some organization `terrorist' becomes almost unavoidably subjective, depending largely on whether one sympathizes with or opposes the person/group/cause concerned. If one identifies with the victim of the violence, for example, then the act is terrorism. If, however, one identifies with the perpetrator, the violent act is regarded in a more sympathetic, if not positive (or, at the worst, an ambivalent) light; and it is not terrorism.
Not that I'm unpatriotic, because I am patriotic and I do think the events were terrible, but doesn't the word "terrorist" imply some sort of point of view? I mean, some people do think that the people who did these attacks were heroes. I think it would be more appropriate to replace the word "terrorist" with the word "hijacker". Ian Lee 03:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The '9/11 Report' refers to the 19 hijackers as hijackers. Yes, they were also terrorists, but hijacker is the more specific term. All the hijackers were terrorists, not all the terrorists were hijackers. Hijacker is the more precise term, and therefore the correct term. Regards, Ben Aveling 01:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand this debate (nor the one "POV-terrorist" above). Did no one read the article and Wikipedia's definition of Terrorism?
MBP 17:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
There is BTW also a UN general assembly resolution (A/RES/56/1, see bottom of http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/resguide/r56.htm) which says the same. MBP 19:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
How about "Islam extremeist terrorists", so we don't imply that all Muslims are terrorists. Zbl 00:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The meaning of terror according to the American [dictionary] is known. [The term] refers to any resistance to the new colonialism. In contrast, the collective and racist annihilation of peoples constitutes (according to the American dictionary) a civilized action that should not be resisted."
In the eyes of Muslims, the US is a force of oppression, thus the Muslims see what happened as divine retribution, carried out under the supervision of Allah by unknown soldiers.
Other dictionary definitions run along the lines of 'terrorism=violent action intended to terrorize' which is broad enough to include war, shock and awe etc..Terrorism: Term with no agreement amongst government or academic analysts, but almost invariably used in a pejorative sense, most frequently to describe life-threatening actions perpetrated by politically motivated self-appointed sub-state groups. But if such actions are carried out on behalf of a widely approved cause, say the Maquis seeking to destabilize the Government of Vichy France then the term 'terrorism' is avoided and something more friendly is substituted.
Terrorism CAN be pejorative (like the word fascism), and does NOT have a precise definition. What governments agree on, organisations (like the UN) decide on and newspapers print has nothing to do with this. Obviously governments have to be careful with their definitions, otherwise they may well find themselves branded with the very term they seek to define. The broad sense of the term is what matters here. The act was clearly carried out by terrorists, whether they consider themselves freedom fighters or not. It would be refreshing to have people say "Yes I'm a terrorist, but this is what I need to do", but sadly because of the nature of the world people are forced to spin everything.
This is a nonsense argument. What is a good argument is whether the term should be used in the headline, and I for one think it should not. Whilst I accept it is clearly an act of terrorism, I do not believe that such an emotive term should be used in the headline, and most definitely not the disconnected term Islamic. -- Angryjames 23:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
If this attack started the "War on Terrorism", how can it not be called terrorism? Zbl 15:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it bias to use a world recognized, or mostly world recognized term for an event that started a war with that same term in its title. Also, how nonbiased is a politcal dictionary. Anything political is biased. Zbl 02:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
A History book (neutral source) used 9/11 as an example when defining the term terrorism. THe same histroy book (rememeber the book is neutral) used the word terorrist and terrorism to refer to Al-Queda and Bin Laden. In that case, the wording may need to be changed if the word terrorist falls out of public usage, but otherwise it is fine. The term "War on Terror is not a Political solgan, it is as much a factual name as the "War of 1812" Zbl 21:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Is the noun, "terrorist," defined as "one that engages in acts or an act of terrorism [5]," appropriately used in the September 11th attacks article? Abe Froman 00:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Agree
Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. (emphasis added)
Disagree
Terrorist, terrorism
There is significant debate whether the term "terrorist" is a neutral description, or an opinion. Arguments for both views are summarized below.
1. The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist. This is the standard Wikipedia format "X says Y". If this is followed, the article should make it clear who is calling them a terrorist, and that the word does not appear to be used, unqualified, by the "narrative voice" of the article. In other cases, terms such as "militant(s)" may be a suitable alternative, implying a group or individual who uses force to attain their objectives. (Note: - The term is not as likely to be disputed if the person or organization verifiably and officially calls themselves "terrorist". But then this should be cited.) 2. It is often not necessary to label a group or individual as a terrorist, any more than to say "X is an evil person". Describing their acts will make clear what they are. Examples of how Wikipedia has handled terrorism can be found at: Al-Qaeda - "Al-Qaeda is the name given to an international Islamic fundamentalist campaign... The Government of the United States regards Al-Qaeda as a terrorist organization, primarily because..." Provisional Irish Republican Army - "The Provisional Irish Republican Army is an Irish Republican paramilitary organisation. The organisation has been outlawed and classified as a terrorist group in [Great Britain, Ireland, the US] and many other countries..." Contras - "The Contras were the armed opponents of Nicaragua's Sandinista Junta of National Reconstruction... The Contras were considered terrorists by the Sandinistas because many of their attacks targeted civilians." Encyclopedic:
X is on the U.S. Department of State's "Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations" list. X, identified by the Y government as responsible for the Z suicide bombings [or "who claimed responsibility for the Z suicide bombings"], is classified as a terrorist group by A, B and C [countries or bodies]. Countries A, B and C regard X as a terrorist group [because...] Not encyclopedic:
X is a terrorist group. Y, leader of the X terrorists, ... After a rapid military response, the X terrorists abandoned the hostages.
Key points have been italicized.-- Acebrock 21:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
No vote
Agree
Disagree
Comment
A while back we had suggestions about enlisting notable individuals who are well aware of 911 inconsistencies. Apart from www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/230306googlecensoring.htm famous]- Bravo Charlie! interview, in which Sheen send his regards to our fine conspiratorial editors here, pointing clearly what is a civilized perspective on commissioned edits: "It's like they want to pigeonhole all of us into conspiracy nutbags when we're not debating things that are related to UFO's bringing down the towers or Building 7 or the Pentagon and so its feels like there's things in there that we’re not the conspiracy theorists on this particular issue," or in other words: "It seems to me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four commercial airliners and hitting 75 percent of their targets: that feels like a conspiracy theory." We should certainly mention David Lynch who recently also said it decently (& non-conspiratorially) well, while describing 911 as: "event which has many questions, and no answers." Or how about pointing to well placed statements of Barbara Streisand, she had to endure quite a lot of vicious attacks from official conspiracy nuts you know? Same goes for James Brolin who once again pointed that we all know it. Then there's Sean Penn who's recent speech does strike at the heart of the matter. Anyway to avoid further "linkspam", Acebrock already did some excellent work on these and other missing topics, and my only concern with such well intended edit is whether these calls should be addressed in section about conspiracy theories… To clarify, if we backpedal a little, we may recall that in the root of truth movement and probably every other truth related site is (nothing else but a) call for new and independent investigation (so we would finally seize to conspire so ludicrously), yet this call is nowhere to be mentioned? Perhaps we could find a valid and unbiased formulation which will address these notable concerns from notable individuals without making conspiracy circus out of it? Preferably in a new section which would also reflect current public opinions… if you would kindly share your perspectives… Lovelight 14:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
So Charlie Sheen thinks that there was some conspiracy? and Sean Peen too? NO surprises here. Are they like some kind of experts or something? Like their opinions are what should be in an encyclopedia? I think I am important enough to alos have my opinion in the article, but I don't think many people here would allow my opinion to be in the article.-- Beguiled 22:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, two, but none of the rest (not that Charlie Sheen or the likes are experts). None of thir opinions are worth anymore than that from two dead flies, so it makes no difference. Opiinions are everywhere, but don't have squat to do with an encyclopedia.-- Beguiled 21:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Please add following reference, as pointed: "Immediately after the September 11 attacks U.S. officials [9] speculated on…". Lovelight 15:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems like that might go better in U.S. government response to the September 11, 2001 attacks. Tom Harrison Talk 16:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The link provided by Lovelight is not suitable for this article...haven't we repeatedly stated that this article is primarily about the events on 9/11/2001 and not the Iraq war and related subsequent events? Anyway, if that source does have a place, it is best in the U.S. government response to the September 11, 2001 attacks article.-- MONGO 23:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The Motive section seems to have an odd presentation. It starts with "According to official U.S. government sources..." - weasel words - before explaining the 1998 fatwa, which is the only really comprehensive claim of responsibility. Then the 9/11 Commission findings, which have some special credibility issues, and then Little George's inane "hatred of the freedom" nonsense. The findings of qualified experts appear last. Peter Grey 17:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Reasons to question the authenticity of this particular letter include:
The letter has other obvious problems that indicate it is a fabrication which at point is extremely amateurish. Does anyone take the following seriously?: "Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?" Who ever actually wrote the letter got carried away. And what is this Islam that the writer of the letter "calls us to" "And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language. " But Bin Laden is a fundamentalist Islamic, this letter talks about "total equality" "without regard" to even sex? Who ever wrote the letter was really having fun at that point. The letter, in an outline format that bin Laden has never used, supposedly asks us to do in numbered several things and now "stop supporting Israel" is pushed down to number 4? Come on. The whole style of the letter is a different from everything that is known to have actually come from bin Laden. 69.114.77.59 08:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
"According to official U.S. government sources..." are not weasel words, because they are sourced. From the weasel words page, in a nut shell, you should "avoid 'some people say' statements without sources." The only source for most of the info on this site, is US government sources, or news sites that quote US government sources, or videos and letters that are found by, and validated by, (wait for it...) US government sources. It's not wrong to say that the motive for this attack is described by US government sources, if they are the ones describing the motive, and we can't get other passable motives into the article. I'd go even further to say that most of the arguments in this talk page are as weak as the one made at the top of this section, saying that these are weasel words. If the only source for a section is the US government, and it's cited, then it better say that it's according to US government sources, or it's nothing more than government propaganda.— Slipgrid 20:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Do we really know, even with the sources that American Airlines Flight 77 actually crashed into the pentagon? And do we really know that the phone calls were really those of the people inside the planes? There has been much debate on what actually happened, and I don't think that we should display these events as fact if we're not almost certain that these events took place. I'm not unpatriotic or anything of the sort, but I think that we really don't know that these events occured. Ian Lee 03:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, among MANY other things, do we know that al Qaeda did these terrible things? I think, again, we should remove the things we don't know for certain (or are at least really sure of). Ian Lee 03:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Whether or not we call the attackers of 911 terrorists or something else is not important at this stage, as long as the opening of this page in its whole is much worse and clearly carries out the subjective opinion of certain people. But as long as its the US governments opinion no rules apply. Like is the case on so many issues in this world after the attacks. And now this topic is closed for editing, bye people with the very same view as the US Government official explanation. Not surprising. I beg you to stick to the fact. There were attacks, no doubt about it, but we have little proof that says muslims planned and carried out these attacks. I think it is of significant value for this Wiki that the opening is edited to be more objective. Wake up Wikipedia. Youre not supposed to be one of many tools on this "war of oil". As long as its possible to proof what happened this day I think it is very important that the people are enlightened with these facts. God doesnt exist, there is no proof about it, just like there is not enough evidence and proof that the opening on this topic is correct. The difference is that we can find proof on this issue. As long as its possible to find answers, we must find them.
84.48.86.37 22:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC) Bryan S.
Philosophically speaking the difference between "know" and "believe" is a complex issue. We must assume in order to survive.
What I'm more concerned about is the use of the term Islamic or Muslim which whilst it may be true, it implies significance beyond stating the fact. Like saying five black men robbed a bank. Yes they may have been black, but should we state it, and particularly as a headline?
-- Angryjames 23:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Due to the notable case brought against Moussaoui the segment entitled "Other potential hijackers" should be subdivided with his info first and then everyone else listed later in the segment. It is ridiculous that his name does not appear in the contents table, and you have to go out and Google around until you can get the right spelling and then come back and do a page search to find him in this article. Because he was found guilty you don't automaticlly realize that he might be included in "potential hijackers" (though once you find him there it seems a logical placement). It would aid the reader looking for his information to sub-divided the segment so they can click on his name from the contents table.--Wowaconia 18:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Something like this:
1 The attacks
Please change this, the article is currently locked against editing or I'd do it myself.--Wowaconia 18:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
No new edits have been allowed since Dec. 26. How long is this lock-out going to drag on? Now this page is becoming dated and losing credibility as there is no mention that A German Court sentenced Moroccan student Mounir al-Motassadeq to 15 years in prison for helping the September 11 suicide pilots plan their attack. Reference = http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,458610,00.html
I propose that the "Conspiracy theories" section be renamed to something along the lines of "Alternative theories". The term conspiracy theory is misleading and has negative associations. However you view it, the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy; that is to say people conspired together (in secret) to carry out the attacks. Under the true definition of the term, even the "Official version" is a conspiracy theory; theorising that Islamic extremist CONSPIRED to do it.
Furthermore, In my opinion, the negative (almost comical) associations with the term reduce the neutrality of the article.
For these reasons I believe the term is being used inappropriately.
Physicsellis 21:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Physicsellis ( talk • contribs) 21:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC).
The user obviously wants greater notice of conspiracy theories in the article, not sure why everyone is oblivious to this and treating it as "off topic discussion". I will assume good faith in that its a Friday before an extended weekend in the US and perhaps some people are tired and not noticing the obvious. Please also refrain from telling people to ignore those you do not agree with, its quite disrespectful. --
Nuclear
Zer0
21:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The term "Conspiracy Theory" is altogether a misnomer, however it has become the common term to describe alternative theories that contradict official statements, albeit pejoratively. Once again arguments here have been reduced to semantics rather than dealing with the real issues. I personally hate the term, but I see no valid alternative, except perhaps linking "9-11 Conspiracy Theories" to "9-11 Alternative Theories" which seems ridiculous. -- Angryjames 18:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Many have expressed concern over the use of the word terrorist in the article. What about the term Islamic Jihadist? Eh? Nobody should argue that one, imho. Could anyone say that the hijackers weren't that?-- SweetNeo85 05:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The term "jihad" does not necessarily mean war in the sense most of us understand it, and cannot therefore be used here. As for Islamic, that is highly inappropriate and offensive (see my other posts on this page). -- Angryjames 18:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Can an admin delete all of the links to a picture that does not exist in the article? It makes the page take a long time to load. -- BenWhitey 19:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
..sustained in Feb of 2005 sustained a 20 hour fire without much damage to its steel frame? Was that a hoax? Are Spaniards worldclass engineers that such building withstood complete burnout with fire leaving only frames behind. Or is it the other way around with World trade centers... I still don't see any reason that a single aeroplane would be given the power to take down such building, that was according to documental archive built just (and only) for withstanding terrorist attacks. And I doubt it that Spanish are better engineers, quite the opposite... -- 195.210.230.226 22:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. What the eyes see and the ears hear the mind believes. It is impossible for one plane to do that to each of the towers, especially when they were designed to withstand multiple impacts from jet liners while enduring a 150 year hurricane and 10 times the maximum load that could ever be exerted on them (i.e. the weight of people standing shoulder to shoulder on every floor multiplied by 10). Furthermore, the majority of the jet fuel was burned up in fireballs outside the building on the initial impact. This left only moderate low temperature fire (characterised by excessive smoking (oxygen deprived fire) which in no way could melt the steel. The firemen even said they could put it out with just two fire hoses right before the building mysteriously imploded (after only an hour too, gee, who writes this stuff?). At what about WTC7? If you think that buildings spontaneously collapse symmetrically and at free fall speed onto their own footprint then I suggest you read up on some basic laws of physics. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.205.77.200 ( talk) 09:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC). This page is actually not a conspiracy theory chat board. This is for discussing the maintenance of the associated encyclopedia article. No drama, no trolling, no general chatting please. This discussion thread will be removed in 3... 2... 1... — Weregerbil 09:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Indeed we're discussing facts presented and written in this very article, wouldn't you agree Weregerbil? This is a video of the Madrid Windsor Fire that lasted over 20 hours and raged with fire, contrary to what was seen with World Trade Center ... all » #7. This building survived as have every other steel framed building that has ever caught fire. This isn't about conspiracy theory, it's questioning whether those who built towers should be taken on responsibility for not so flawless job they've done. It is a structural question of a building that was built to withstand.. Minoru Yamasaki was the architect. -- 195.210.251.17 09:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
That building had reinforced concrete in its core and was not hit by a widebody jet.-- MONGO 07:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The WTC buildings also had 47 reinforced concrete support columns at their core. Furthermore, these were hermetically sealed as standard. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3281135121622917423. It's true that the out columns supported a percentage of the weight, but as the designer of the building says, it was very effective at redistributing weight in the event of damage.
No, it had 47 steel columns encased in gypsum boards, and none of that matters anyway since the columns themselves were damaged by the impact of the planes. The weight was redistributed but the subsequent fires reduced the carrying capacity of the floor trusses.-- MONGO 13:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
If an elevator shaft was damaged, then that whole shaft would have been out of order, not just the part below the plane strike point. That said, elevators should not freefall just because their cables have snapped, thanks to Elisha Otis. Do we know which of the three stages was hit? Presumably the middles ones? I guess that might have also cut power to the top stage if the power cables to it were cut? I am not an expert, but I'll have a guess that the bottom stage shut itself down for some reason, rather than actually being seriously damaged. Elevators are a really bad way to exit a damaged building. Regards, Ben Aveling 22:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is this talk page semiprotected? This is nuts. — Rickyrab | Talk 04:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Because it was being trolled by those whose primarily purpose was disruption...just guessing, of course.-- MONGO 07:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The page has been unsemiprotected. Since I succeeded at what I set out to do, I'll shut up now. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
MONGO, I see no reason to listen to anyone who makes personal attacks against me as you did here. note the edit history and how you say I got my facts wrong as usual. if that's not a personal attack then personal attacks do not exist. I admit I got one fact wrong, the person semiprotecting the page, but you still blocked Cplot without going through the normal channels, and why is adding more about the conspiracy theories POV? please explain, in full without calling them nutty, idiotic, or anything else that would be deragatory-- Acebrock 21:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow, all of this nonsense about conspiracy theories and planned demolitions. Yes, it's unusual for skyscrapers made from steel to collapse from fire. However, this was a very hot couple of fires. Furthermore, folks who were IN the danged Towers reported having seen no demolition work going on, whereas had explosives been planted beforehand some would've seen something unususual - after all, the Towers were supported by their side walls, and many folks had offices by those walls. Thus, someone's office would likely have been disturbed by the drilling or by the planting of explosives. Yes, I agree that 9/11 was a Bad Thing, and I even agree that it was a conspiracy that did it - after all, four planes don't crash for nothing - but this was a case in which skyscrapers literally burned to the ground, unlikely as it seems. I suppose those Conspiracy Theories are quite a Silly Thing indeed, and maybe their proposers should head over to Hastings and take a break - with "1066 and All That", of course. — Rickyrab | Talk 04:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering why the multimedia link that used to be on this page located at http://ia300233.us.archive.org/3/items/20041102-Last-Chance-911-Timeline/20041102-Last-Chance-911-Timeline-44min.mpg was removed. I think it is highly valuable material, and I have no agenda.
I understand that people might think this guy was agenda driven in producing this video, but it's the only one I've found that so effectively places the coverage from so many outlets together. I'd be very interested to know why this link might have been removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by K-lit ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
This page has been protected on and off for a month, and that's not good for Wikipedia in general. There is a concentrated effort to add conspiracy theory related material to this article. It makes me wonder if the effort is being organized offline. That being said, should we consider bringing an ArbCom for the 911 article itself? The objective is to have arbitrators agree conspiracy theory material should be included in the conspiracy articles, and not the main 911 article. With such a decision, the offending material could be deleted on sight, and/or the contributing editor warned or banned. Without a higher authority involved, I do not see a way to unprotect the page without edit warring. Abe Froman 17:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The page is off to arbcom, feel free to add your statements, folks. —
Rickyrab |
Talk
19:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's the Arbcom form that I used and what I had put on it, though.
Note: There may be others involved in this; it is a complicated discussion and I waded into the middle of it. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
provide diffs showing that the involved parties have been notified on their talk pages [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]
Note: Cplot, the banned user, could not be notified on account of his ban and the protection of his userpage; furthermore, obtaining a statement from him would be difficult due to the ban. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a situation of semi-protection of Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks, which is making it practically impossible for anons to submit requests for edits to the main article. It is there because people supporting conspiracy theories and people feeling that the talk page should not contain discussion of conspiracy theories are arguing with one another, and some users (I am uncertain about this) may have been banned and may be using sockpuppets. Nonetheless, I am concerned that good-faith anons are being censored by this semi-protection. Furthermore, I wonder if a ban on users excessively discussing conspiracy theories and their IPs is a good idea or not. My POV is that a) conspiracy theories are relevant to discussing the cause of 9/11, b) the discussion of conspiracy theories often disintegrates badly into soapboxing and even "whining", c)blocking all anons from editing a TALK page over the edits of a few is ridiculous, and d) the situation needs sysop help. — Rickyrab | Talk 18:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I have unprotected the talk page for now. I don't think you can have permanent semi-protection on a talk page without some kind of intentional discussion; leaving it protected because it might be trolled again is not a good solution. It can be reprotected if necessary.
I'm not sure exactly what the intent of arbitration would be. If you have been having problems with anons and disposable accounts using the talk page to inappropriately promote conspiracy theories rather than discuss the article itself, the most you will get out of the arbitration committee is a finding that inappropriate talk can be reverted or archived. It would be easier if you could agree among yourselves to do that. (Such an agreement would have to include most significant editors and most "sides" of the issue, of course.) Note that whether you decide to remove inappropriate comments among yourselves or ask arbcom for a ruling, in the end it will come down to the editors here needing to agree on which comments should be removed, since arbcom won't do it for you.
If the problem is disruptive editing by regular editors then you can file an arbitration request, although the committee will expect you to show prior attempts at dispute resolution, such as an RFC. Good luck. Thatcher131 21:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The image of the lightpole on the cab it covering the text, I tried to fix it but I can't see the anything about the image when I click edit page...sorry I'm a bit of a wiki noob. Patmagroin1289 13:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I wish to bring up the issue of al-Qaeda taking part in attacks. There is no reference as to evidence of al-Qaeda being affiliated with the attacks. I believe that we should only have hijackers in the article and no mention of al-Qaeda actually doing it. There can be the theory of al-Qaeda doing it, but not saying that they actually did it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soten355 ( talk • contribs) 02:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
I think it would be good to have in the main article other possible hypothesis than the ones expressed in the 9/11 Comission. For example in the case of the Madrid bombings of March 11, in the Spanish Wikipedia [23], there is room for different studies, backed up with sources. -- 165.138.169.33 21:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The sentence at issue is:
The economy of Lower Manhattan ground to a halt, as billions of dollars worth of office space was damaged or destroyed.
The question is "what was destroyed." Office space was destroyed.
That's rather a strangely constructed sentence, when you look at it.
Looking further, what does it mean? Billions to construct? No. Billions to rent? For how long? Billions to replace? That might better.
The economy of Lower Manhattan ground to a halt. Office space which would cost billions of dollars to replace was damaged or destroyed.
That's my suggestion. Wowest ( talk) 15:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)