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I created the below and hopefully this can be filled and dicussed by everyone, if noone brings forth sections then I guess its obvious that there are no POV concerns. --
Nuclear
Zer0
21:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This section is for editors to bring forth their claims of POV parts in the article for examination by the editing community. Please post a quote of what you feel is POV, then explain your reason afterwards.
Since the section will be numbered, please do not post up there any rebuttals and instead post them in this section below. Please stick to the format given. Thank you.
Dispute against 1.
Dispute against 2.
There have been many substantive discussion of the article. Here's a few examples from above.
I have brought up specifics before. See:
Typically we get the usual suspects (I call them the US for short), claimming nothing has been said. Then we request an POV tag and the US say why don't you just request a POV tag. This is a silly game. NuclearUmpf, if you really came to provide some reasoned independent analysis, you would have made sure the POV template was added rather than altering your remarks when you realized not even that minimal step has been taken.
I think we need to start with those. As one can see from reading the debate that's gone on here for quite some time, whenever someon raises changing the article from a Bush administration press release into an encylopedia article they're told things like "it's not going to happen". It's alot of work to compose encylopedic content then to find out that federal authorities won't the topic into the article. If we could come to an agreement over what the feds will accept, then we can better understand where to focus on drafting more detailed material. I think the list of POV problems and the sources needed to correct them are a good starting point for the conversation. -- Cplot 22:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a movement away from discussion of NPOV to borderline personal attacks. The focus should be on actual disputes. I think what the dissenters are trying to say is:
I think this needs to be narrowed down to specific issues that, hopefully, can be discussed rationally. Peter Grey 22:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
These:
You want us to put in a section about what people "think" happened...ie:polls? Then you want us to add a list of conspiracy theory books to the article?-- MONGO 22:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Please add the {{POV}} template to the top of the article. The preceding discussion demontrates a clear dispute over NPOV problems. -- Cplot 22:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
"What does Iraq have to do with the 9/11 attacks at the time of them happening, the Iraq section should say that it was part of the WOT at most, which sprang from 9/11."
"As for living dead hijackers, you do realize that is because of stolen passports right? faked identities, and people with the same name as well as the rush to identify, none of the identified hijackers as of today are living, unless you count the silly supermarket tape of Atta."
"I think the problem is that you think conspiracy theories deserve as much weight as the actual events, which isnt the case here. The principle that would govern this situation calls for conspiracy theories to take up very little as they represent very little of the actual situation."
"Also sources have to pass WP:RS and WP:V if you feel certain sources are being removed that belong, then please present them on the talk page and let everyone chime in. I am a big representer of WP:RS and WP:V and citations. Instead of long rants like ago, try to coherently organize your points for people to read and reply to."
Someone has suggested that the article is run by what Wikipedia I think calls clowns (if I'm using the right term). It might be better for others to just avoid the discussion here for a while and look to draft a rewrite of the entire article elsewhere. It does no on eany good to engage here where they seek to bait people into 3rr violations or personal attacks. Obviously they're just playing games here. We can return later and fix the article. -- Cplot 22:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's a leap in logic if I ever saw one. Someone who works for the feds to fuck over Wikipedia is not likely a person. And personal attacks have to be directed at a person. There has to be a victim. You can't just charge someone with murder if there's no murder victim (though I suppose your superiors are working on that). If there's no personal attacked then it's not a personal attack. -- 70.8.56.126 02:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to make sure we're clear on that. Some of you are trying to argue that it's ok. It's not. -- 70.8.151.103 21:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, anyone can contribute as long as they follow the rules. Tom Harrison Talk 22:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. " Winston Smith via Lovelight 01:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Trolling removed
With the 1 week block for one of the instigators of the recent edit war ( Cplot ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)), does anyone have an objection to a request to remove protection on the article? -- StuffOfInterest 12:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I've added Complete 911 Timeline to externals, please leave it there… Lovelight 16:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Go there and read comments… then come back and say what's wrong with such source… Lovelight 18:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Actor Charlie Sheen believes the conspiracy theories and has strong doubts about the government's POV Here's thewww.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/200306charliesheen.htm link]. And all who have been saying that saying more on conspiracy theories is giving undue weight may have to eat your words-- Acebrock 19:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with acebrock: I don’t know if you guys watched the movie “9/11 mysteries” located at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003 and is sponsored by the www.st911.org website which is owned by Steven Jones, Kevin Barrett, Jim Fetzer, Morgan Reynolds, etc…they are all part of the scholar for 9/11 truth organization. Steven Jones, according to Wikipedia, is a professor of Physics, cold fusion researcher and member of the "9/11 Truth Movement.” There is an interview with Steven Jones on channel 2 News at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To4t5c3LZfg. Kevin Barrett supports Jones’ view. Barrett is a prof at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who has been studying the 9/11 reports for the last 2 years or so. There’s an interview with Barrett on Fox News at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmvGFVr6KNk&NR and on CNN on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfCFB0UApaE. He did another interview with Fox news and it’s at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn4jqGk0xTo. It’s really interesting. The first time they appeared I have to say I thought both Jones and Barrett were nutjobs but then I actually went to their www.st911.org website and realized that they had a point and the inaccuracies of the U.S Commission’s Report raised a lot of questions. I now believe along with other members of the 9/11 truth movement that it was an inside job done by members of the Bush administration. The film “9/11 mysteries” that I mentioned was quite thought provoking. The Femur (I think that’s how you spell it) report put out by the U.S government said that the structural damage of the Towers where due to impact of the plane and the resulting fires. But after the B-25 Mitchell bomber flew into the Empire State Building in 1945, the Towers were built with skyscraper crashes in mind. Les Robertson who is the WTC structural engineer is interviewed and he says that the Towers were built to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 (which was the largest plane at the time) hitting the building at any location. But the aircraft that hit the Towers was a Boeing 767 which is a smaller model and requires less fuel than the Boeing 707. When the plane hit there were two pockets of fire which at the time the firefighters who called it in said that they should be able to knock it down with only 2 water lines on the 78th floor. The movie goes on to explain that the fuel from the plane was consumed from the initial fire balls and the following minutes of fire. But the official report by the government says that the flames then spread throughout the building and the fire melted the core of that top floor causing it to collapse on the bottom floor and then the weight of the top floors caused the bottom floors to collapse as well. Hence the domino affect of the building collapse. But the controversy is that before the building collapsed the Towers stood for an hour smoldering but not flaming. The smoldering indicating an oxygen starved fire and so the fire was not burning successfully. And then DeMartini is interviewed who is the WTC construction manager. He explains that the building could have withstood multiple hits with a jetliner which is why the Towers stood for an hour after being hit. And then the part about the fire melting the steel initiating the collapse, the movie explains that no steel building before the Towers collapsed as a result of the fire, especially a fire that lasted for an hour. The movie that talks about how in 1975 the North WTC Tower had a fire that flamed for 3 hours (twice as long as the fires of 9/11) but didn’t collapse. In Feb of 2005 the Windsor Tower in Madrid sustained a 20 hour fire without much damage to its steel frame. The movie talks about how strong the steel supports were and how unlikely it would have been that the floors from above were heavy enough to give way to the bottom floors. And then there’s an interview with Paul Goldberger, an architect, who talks about how strong the steel was. PBS did a simulation of the Towers collapsing but in the simulation the core was left standing. But in reality the core steel structure completely disappeared and was turned into dust. The movie then goes onto explain that the fires could not have been hot enough to melt steel which melts at 2750 degrees Fahrenheit and above and that none of the materials could have burned to produce that required temperature. Plus, no survivors reported this much heat while the Towers were standing… they have interviews with the survivors and firefighters who reported hearing explosions going off at floors below were the plane hit. You can see in the movie some of the explosions occurring. The movie agues that since sound reaches us after what we see we should have heard the boom (if it was a result of the building collapsing) after the collapse not before, which is why some researchers believe that the Towers fell after explosives were detonated inside the building. The movie goes on to explain that the fires could never have been hot enough to reach the temp of 2750. The movie examines Dr. Eagers’ (MIT) statement which it explains doesn’t explain the absence of the core. The fall of the Towers was not characteristic of a typical implosion but rather an explosion involving high energy explosives. The argument is that if it was a typical domino effect than so much debris would not have been thrown outward, such as the 600000 lb chunk of steel (twice the weight of a Boeing airliner) flew 400 feet across the street and was wedged into a financial center buildings as well as the april 2006 discovery of bone remains found on near by building tops. The movie talks about how according to siesmic data collected the North Tower came down in about 8 second and the South Tower in about 10 seconds which is roughly free fall where if it was a pancake collapse as the official report says then it should have occurred in atleast 1 minute and 36 seconds. The movie explains that the only way that the buildings could have come down so fast is if the bottom floors held no resistance and completely gave in to the top floors and that the top floors fell at almost free fall. Hence, the speculation that explosives were set off at the bottom floors as well as interviews with survivors at the bottom floors that heard explosions going off and you can see them in the videos of the Towers collapsing. The movie explains that the internal explosions would explain why the basement walls (slurry walls) of the Tower which were built to hold back the Hudson river and had always held the weight of the 110 floors but after the collapse the 3 foot thick slurry walls were found to have shifted inwards upto 18 inches something most likely caused by powerful explosives near the wall. There’s an interview with George J. Tamaro who was the civil engineer that built the basement walls. Then Steven Jones in an interview with NBC news talks about how the presence of molten medal is evidence of the use of high temperature explosives such as thermite which only takes 2 seconds to reach temperatures of upto 4500 degrees Fahrenheit which is well above the melting point of steel at 2750. The steel supports near the bottom of the Towers were melted which indicates that the collapse of the bottom Towers was not due to the weight of the top Towers alone and explains why the building collapsed in only 10 seconds. Demolition experts explain what occurs in a typical demolition. The movie explains the use of shape chargers (I think that’s how you spell it) in controlled demolition to control how the steel columns of the WTC Towers were cut. Cuts seen on the steel supports in the debris were characteristic of those made by shape chargers. The movie explains that the way that most of the building fell into its basement is analogous to the goal in control demolition. The movie talks about Silverstein who acquired lease of the WTC building in spring of 2006 and then acquired insurance that covered acts of terrorism and the right to rebuild the complex if it was destroyed. The movie talks about how after 9/11 Silverstein bought his insurancers in court to obtain double his policy limit because the double hijacking constituted two terrorist attacks on his building. He ended up with 7 billion dollars on his original 15 million dollar investment. It talks about the controversary surrounding building 7 and why it fell. Silverstein claimed that he said to pull the firefighters out of the building and was not referring to the building itself which is controversial because there were no firefighters in the building at the time according to the firefighter chief and other sources. The way that building 7 imploded indicated that it was demolished. It talks about Mayor Guliani (I think that’s who you spell his name). The U.S report indicates that WTC7 fell due to fire alone (approx. at 1 hour of movie) but many engineers are doubting including an interview with the structural engineer Ramon Gilsanz who talks about how it was an implosion and could not have been because of the fires alone. The movie talks about the mystery surrounding why the building would have been demolished. It talks about how the building houses the CIA, United States Secret Service, and the mayor’s office of emergency management. Lost in the debris of WTC7 were thousands of case files relating to corporate fraud of companies like Worldcom and Enron (Micheal Moore talks about this in his movie Fahrenheit 9/11). The movie points out that noone died in the collapse of building WTC7. Listen to survivor accounts at 1 hour and 1 minute where they talk about how prior to the plane hitting the Towers, the building WTC7 was completely evacuated but people in the other Towers were told to go back to their offices because it was safer there. At 1 hour 4 minute it talks about how the director that provided electronic security of the Dullus airport and the Towers involved in Sept 11 attacks is Bush’s younger brother Marvin P. Bush..Moore talks about their involvement in 9/11 in the movie Fahrenheit 9/11. Marvin installed a new security system at the world trade center by Seracom. Wirt Walker is Bush’s cousin and the CEO of Seracom (Moore talks about this in his movie). Scott Forbes reported that the weekend before 9/11 there was a power down in the Towers and during this time all security cameras were off and pretty much anyone could walk into the building. Many workmen entered during this time for internet upgrading and to fix the power problem. They have interviews with workers who say that they were given notification that the workers were here for internet upgrading. Scott Forbes notified the 9/11 Commission about the unusually long power outrage but was ignored. The movie talks about prior to Sept 11, bomb sniffing dogs were removed. The Towers cost millions a year to upkeep and the clean up of asbestos on the Towers would have cost over a billion dollars. There’s an interview with Kevin Ryan who worked for Underwriters Laboratories and he talks about the claim that the plane impact caused the asbestos to come off of the steel allowing it to melt. He claims that even if that was true the fires still weren’t hot enough to melt the steel. Watch the video for the details. It’s really interesting. Dr. Jim Fetzer at the University of Wisconsin Madison is one of the people of the scholars for 9/11 truth organization (www.st911.org). Here’s a conference in which he talks about how the universities across the United States should allow professors to teach the events leading to 9/11 in the classroom as well as alternative theories involving the Bush administration at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1jb-0ClpbM. He also talks about Saddam and Osama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jennifer754 ( talk • contribs)
I've added the POV template requested countless times in this discussion. Please ensure it stays there unil these NPOV issues are resolved. -- 68.30.26.171 19:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you explain why you reposted this? This is the third time you have posted the text above in this article. This time you included the answers. They exist also above. I will assume good faith and let you explain this behaviour. -- Regebro 15:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
"The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda: because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda," George Bush via Lovelight 16:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qaeda and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qaeda to provide material or operational support, United States Senate via Lovelight 17:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
You want to know my problems with the article? It reads as if the 9/11 attacks, as the government described them, are the way the events happened, and it treats the conspiracy theorists as a tiny minority that are hardly worth mentioning. I want to expand the conspiracy theory section to reflect the fact that a lot of people believe that the government had some involvement as well as naming prominent adherents, and I want to change the wording around, (murdered and massacred to killed, for example) at the very least, and at the very best, showing that there are many questons raised about the events. I don't think I can make this any more clear, though obviously it's vague because this is the third time I've brought it up. Mediation should be done, regardless of whether we think there is a dispute, remember, if there is disute over whether a dispute exists, then a dispute probably exists. That's in Wikipedia Policy.-- I need a vacation 18:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
What kind of conclusion is that? And who are we suppose to help? How can you conclude such thing? What to hell your post has to do with my proposal? I'll answer you and save you some time, this things you are throwing at me have nothing to do with it. Not a thing. Read it carefully, because it was constructed carefully, it is intended to serve as note in encyclopedia you know?
Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq.
sourced with: ^ "Latest on the attacks on America, 7:00 PM", CBS News, September 11, 2001.
Mongo, stay on topic. SalvNaut is clearly trying to fix these serious NPOV problems. You cannot simply say "well the article reflects my POV so I've asnwered you". One suggestion would be to restate this as: "CBS News reported that on the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.' This way it makes it clear and verifiable. A reader can verify that CBS reported this. A reader cannot veify that US intelligence agencies interecepted communications. -- 70.8.139.192 21:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Mongo wrote: "First off...get a username...secondly," Mongo do you have no regard at all for what Wikpedia is trying to accomplish. Everywhere throughout Wikipedia there are users who take NPOV seriously; who take verifiability serioiusly; who take no original researcy seriously, unlke you. And many of those who make valuable contributions to Wikpedia do so annonymously: another tenant of wikis. Again, if you don't like the idea behiind wikipedia, then don't participate. But please don't come in here and insist Wikipedia be like Fox News or the New York Times. Just go participate in those insitutions if that's what you're looking for.
Secondly, Osama bin Laden is a living person and so we must be careful to adhere to Wikpedia's policies on that. There has not been any indictment of Osama bin Laden on this: let alone a conviction. Most of the evidence that I presume exists has never been aired in a court of law. Now I believe Osama bin Laden had something to do with these attacks, but that doesn't let me (or anyone else) run rough shot over over Wikpedia policies and guidelines. We're here to write and encyclopedia: a wiki encyclopedia. Join in that process or just recuse yourself. Looking through these dicussion archives I find a lot of evidence that you're here to disrupt and not contribute.
Now that it's clear that there is not a concesnsus among editors, it's time for us to figure out a way to make this artricle meet Wikipedia's standards. There are so many problems in this article it's going to take a log of work. Your attempts to shout down every editor you don't agree with only makes it that much more cumbersome to fix the article. -- 68.30.46.228 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
What I've found so far is this report about communication intercepted betwen Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September [4]. So... who knows what CBS report was about (foreknowledge?). Maybe it's not a good idea to use CBS report from the day of attack as a source? SalvNaut 21:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
On the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.[37]
Please remove this unverifed statement per arguments above. We are not here to repeat everything what media says. This sentence should be at least clarified with "On the day of attacks CBS reported that...." but even then, I see no reason to include it. There were numerous false statements in the media on that day. Or it could be sourced much much better to explain who, when, who intercepted, etc. I've only found info about Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September. SalvNaut 22:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A new source has been presented - very good. The problem is that there is not a word in this source about Osama bin Ladin. Only about "interception of telephone conversations between jubilant terrorist supporters" and from the article it can be read that those were other terrorist cells. Please, stay strict and sharp minded, and if you want to have it here rephrase it appropriately (to whoever made the edit). Replacing "Osama" with "members of Al-Qaeda" or something similiar. Don't you think it's stupid that the article, at its present form, states that Osama called hijackers on the day of attacks, while even FBI admits that they do not have enough proof to pursue Osama for 9/11? SalvNaut 00:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so what we have now, is communication between Osama and his stepmother intercepted on 9th of September [5] and "... an intercept of some information, including people associated with Osama bin Laden, who acknowledged a couple of targets were hit." (on 11th, right?) Can someone make an edit that would reflect just that? SalvNaut 20:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to remove the edit protection to include a link to the September 11 2001 fifth anniversary page?
isnt calling 9/11 a "terrorist" attact POV? one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Keltik31 16:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Then the state of Israel is a terrorist nation and Ariel Sharon is a terrorist Keltik31 17:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I have tried. But it gets deleted by the PC Police. I have referred to the acts of terror against the British in Palestine as terror and called Begin a terrorist and I get scolded. Keltik31 18:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose dumping the word terrorist entirely, or at least rewording all mentions of it it, because it's listed at WP:WTA-- I need a vacation 18:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
1. The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist. This is the standard Wikipedia format "X says Y". If this is followed, the article should make it clear who is calling them a terrorist, and that the word does not appear to be used, unqualified, by the "narrative voice" of the article. In other cases, terms such as "militant(s)" may be a suitable alternative, implying a group or individual who uses force to attain their objectives. (Note: - The term is not as likely to be disputed if the person or organization verifiably and officially calls themselves "terrorist". But then this should be cited.) 2. It is often not necessary to label a group or individual as a terrorist, any more than to say "X is an evil person". Describing their acts will make clear what they are.-- I need a vacation 19:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Article structure Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact - the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.
Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
From Wikipedia:Words To Avoid:
Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.
frpm WP:NPOV:We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a reasonable idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such details.
In summary, controversy sections should not be used as a tool to marginalize criticism.
And one can, and many do, see this as happening in this article, and as such I see no reason to not expand the conspiracy theory section.-- I need a vacation 20:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I have created a proposed version of the aricle here. Do not edit the page, but do read through it, look at the history, and comment on each edit on the talk page
Massacred and murdered to killed
Removed all mention of terrorism per WP:WTA
Reworded pentagon hit a bit (probably going to be challenged come game time) Now says "It is generally believed that the pentagon was hit by said flight"
"It is generally believed that the pentagon was hit by said flight". Yes, and it is generally beleived that 2+2 is 4, but of course, we know that to be a government coverup. ;) Anyway, you are here mixing up several edits into one, claiming it to be one edit. That makes discussion hard. Please take up the changes ONE BY ONE. And we can discuss them. Don't claim that a rewording of once sentence + the reformulation of the word terrorist + the change of "massacred" to "kileld" is ONE edit. It is clearly THREE edits. -- Regebro 23:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
It has nothing to with what you do at once or not. I repeat: Please take up each proposed change one by one with an explanation of why you want to that change. And don't refer to a fuzzy "Edit 1" on a subpage, which requires people do go in and look at a diff on a subpage to understand what you wnat to change. Don't fork the article, don't treat the changes as a whole, don't refer to the article as a whole as being POV without arguing for it. Just simply describe the changes you want to do, one by one, and your reasons for the change. I really don't understand why you still refuse to do that. It's not like it's hard to do, right? -- Regebro 13:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Expanded conspiracy theory section and provided reliable sources
section with changes Conspiracy theories
Various conspiracy theories, have emerged that question the mainstream account of the attacks. Conspiracy theorists as well as notable celebrities, such as actor Charlie Sheenwww.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/200306charliesheen.htm] and William Rodriguez, A janitor working in the towers at the time of the attacks, [6] have said the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by planted explosives. Some say a commercial airliner did not crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. Most conspiracy theories say individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and let them happen, or actually planned the attacks. While conspiracy theories about Jewish or Israeli involvement are "a core part of the belief system of anti-Semites and millions of others around the world (unchanged cite here), in the United States a minority of conspiracy theorists say there was Israeli or Jewish involvement in the attacks.
One Poll by Scripps Howard and the Ohio University system found that 36% of Americans suspected Government involvement or complacency in the attacks. Another poll by Zogby International concluded that 49% of New Yorkers suspected that the US government had some involvemement in the attacks. [7]
Many groups have sprung up with evidence of government involvement, most notably The 9/11 Truth Movement, which notes that the government failed to intercept any of the hijacked planes, and that the World Trade Center fell into it's footprint. However, the latter has been challenged by structural engineers, who say that a building weighing a million tons, and being 95% air could only come down in that fashion [8] and the burning jet fuel caused the steel beams to get soft and rubbery, eventually resulting in failure. [9]
Also noted by conspiracy theorists is the fact that the CIA warned President Bush that "there was a high probability of a spectacular terrorist attack." [10] Also noted by conspiracy theorists is the reports from several firefighters that they saw flashes and heard explosions just before the collapse. [11] Many conspiracy theorists also think that United 93 didn't crash into Shanksville PA. and and flight 77 didn't crash into The Pentagon, but when asked where the planes and passengers went they say it doesn't matter. [12]
fixed typos and added info I forgot about.
Massive additions to the 9/11 conspiracy theory section. Kept it fairly neutral and cited the media (and MSNBC is a reliable source)
(see above)
Probably in the original as well but the WOT section needs sources, the view of most US citizens? that kind of comment definatly needs sources and the rest of that paragraph as well.
Final paragraph in "Fatalities" before "Damage" needs sources.
"The hijackers" this section needs sources. Is "Arab men" appropriate? Doesn't Arab refer to Saudi Arabian only?
"9/11 Commission Report" Should be expanded.
--
Nuclear
Zer0
21:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Most of the NPOV problems I saw were fixed and I cited some sources. I'll pull them up
Damage In addition to the 110-floor Twin Towers of the World Trade Center itself, five other buildings at the World Trade Center site, including 7 World Trade Center and the Marriott Hotel, two New York City Subway stations, and St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church were destroyed or badly damaged. In total, in Manhattan, 25 buildings were damaged and all seven buildings of the World Trade Center Complex had to be razed. [13] Two additional buildings were later condemned: the Deutsche Bank Building across Liberty Street from the World Trade Center complex, due to the uninhabitable, toxic conditions inside the office tower [14] and Borough of Manhattan Community College's Fiterman Hall at 30 West Broadway due to extensive damage in the attacks. [15] These buildings are both (as of September 2006) slated for deconstruction. [16]
Communications equipment such as broadcast radio, television and two-way radio antenna towers were damaged beyond repair. In Arlington County, a portion of the Pentagon was severely damaged by fire and one section of the building collapsed.(source already here)
Arab men was changed to men of middle eastern descent and sourced
Didn't tackle the challenge of expanding the 9/11 commision report section
how timely? just visited talk page to say that this article misses bad on NPOV policy. Then i see your post at bottom. this is much better than what's there. i couldn believe how pov the current one is. one other suggestion. "conspiracy theories" seems a bit off too. even more than 'terrorist'. after all isn't that just used to dismiss dissenting viewpoints? how bout something like 'further evidence or 'dissenting viewpoints'. Seems much more encyclopedic to me. -- SoLittleTime 23:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
should add citation of a specific prominent theorist who thinks the jews coordinated the attacks. otherwise the quote from the adl looks way too defensive. the way it is now it just comes out of nowhere.—Preceding unsigned comment added by SoLittleTime ( talk • contribs)
And that's the end of the talk page there.
Okay, here is the first paragraph of proposed changes from Acebrock. The major changes to the paragraph are the removal of the term "terrorist" and the addition of "is thought to have crashed into the Pentagon" for flight 77. Please comment below. -- PTR 19:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001. The victims were predominantly civilians.
On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen men [1] affiliated with al-Qaeda [2] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners. Each team of hijackers included a trained pilot. The hijackers crashed two of the airliners ( United Airlines Flight 175 and American Airlines Flight 11) into the World Trade Center in New York City, one plane into each tower ( 1 WTC and 2 WTC). A third airliner ( American Airlines Flight 77) is thought to have crashed into the Pentagon in Arlington County, Virginia. Passengers and members of the flight crew on the fourth aircraft ( United Airlines Flight 93) attempted to retake control of their plane from the hijackers; that plane crashed into a field near the town of Shanksville in rural Somerset County, Pennsylvania. In addition to the 19 hijackers, 2,973 people died; another 24 are missing and presumed dead.
I don't agree with removing the word "terrorist" since it is used by all WP:RS sources. This is considered and called (by all reliable sources) a terrorist attack and not a suicide attack. I don't agree with "thought to have crashed into the Pentagon" since we have no sources with that wording. All the WP:RS sources we have say the plane crashed into the Pentagon. There are those who have other thoughts and theories but these are not supported, at this time, by reliably sourced facts.-- PTR 19:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
As the article is locked, could someone please add interwiki to the icelandic article: [[is:Hryðjuverkin 11. september 2001]]. -- Jóna Þórunn 20:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Please add following: "Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq."; to appropriate place (see discussion) in The War on Terrorism section.
Well Reg, thank you for turning this into circus, I'm afraid that I'll call for meditation/arbitration on this one, you were free to suggest and/or clarify that word, you continued to disrupt discussion, you failed to check already provided references and I have no intention to repost them especially for you… Neutrality of the article is disputed, place appropriate tag at the entrance point or inform the world that this page is property of US and that simple truth has no place on it… Lovelight 19:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
In the aftermath of the attacks, many U.S. citizens held the view that the attacks had "changed the world forever."
The Bush administration declared a war on terrorism, with the stated goals of bringing Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda to justice and preventing the emergence of other terrorist networks using economic and military sanctions against states perceived as harboring terrorists and increasing global surveillance and intelligence sharing. The U.S. was not the only nation to increase its military readiness, with other notable examples being the Philippines and Indonesia, countries that have their own internal conflicts with Islamic extremist terrorism.
Please add the POV template to the top of the article. The preceding discussion demonstrates a clear dispute over NPOV problems. * Lovelight 21:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
…"Deaf dumb and blind basketcases". That may be my opinion, but it is my POV... Nobody except you, Cplot and the other conspiracy pushers have turned anything into a circus… "As you see Reg, due to this unfortunate syllogism what you actually did was calling me: "Deaf dumb and blind basketcase…" Lovelight 13:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of the article, right before the table of contents, there's the sentence:
If you come to the main article via a redirect, clicking that link reloads the page before jumping to the anchor link. It should just link to #Fatalities. dcandeto 06:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm certain that many of you consider a four year long protection of main article absolutely normal occurrence, but this protection of the talk page? Lovelight 09:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
This isnt directed at Lovelight and really is directed at both sides of this polarizing debate, but why is the Senate only right when they agree with people? They are right when they goto war, wrong when they say no links to AQ. Wrong when they vote to goto war, right when they say no links to AQ. Its just amusing to watch a source be discounted for their foolishness, then praised for their level headed judgement. --
Nuclear
Zer0
16:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
There were some Vigilant war games on that day, why are these not presented? They were more then crucial for cascading failures of 911… Lovelight 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
There are several things which should be considered when adding an external link.
What should be linked to:
Links to be considered:
This is the home page for the Complete 911 Timeline investigative project, one of several grassroots investigations being hosted by the Cooperative Research website. The data published as part of this investigation has been collected, organized, and published by members of the public who are registered users of this website.
-- PTR 16:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Blogs often provide commentary or news on a particular subject, such as food, politics, or local news; some function as more personal online diaries. A typical blog combines text, images, and links to other blogs, web pages, and other media related to its topic. The ability for readers to leave comments in an interactive format is an important part of many blogs.
What you're trying to do is to insert another minute by minute timeline, which we already have… would you consider removing other timeline (rhetorical q)? Before anything that link is WP:EL, would you care to share the keywords u used to present that particular context? I'm not sure why you have to disagree? As stated earlier: "anyone who disputes that spring should take another visit, click on any section and verify that all articles are properly sourced and cited…" Lovelight 15:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Protected: See complaint filed at WP:AE. I will review the situation tonight after work. I have protected the page in the mean time. Hopefully there will be an amicable resolution before I come back to this. Thatcher131 17:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I am new to this discussion. In this article I see a timeline box, and multiple wiki articles supporting it. I do not believe the proposed External Timeline deserves inclusion. I read through the external timeline ( and it's a long read ) and found it to be exhaustively detailed, but conspiratorial in tone. An example: in the timeline is an alleged Bush Assassination attempt in Florida. In the timeline, several newspaper citations place middle eastern men and George W Bush in Florida on September 11th 2001. But it is the editor at History Commons that makes the leap, and alleges those middle eastern men were on an assassination assignment. Since History Commons is not a news organization, I don't think their spin on cited sources deserves inclusion in this hot topic. Abe Froman 18:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
While the link might be appropriate among others in Timeline of the September 11, 2001 attacks, an external link to any time line is not useful on this page, and invites other external links, adding cruft at no profit to Wikipedia. We have a link in the template to our own timeline, and to my mind that is enough. If a link must be included (and I do not see why), I prefer the link to CNN's timeline as more reputable. I notice that one edit not only added the cooperativeresearch.org timeline, but also removed the html comment urging people not to add external links without consensus. Tom Harrison Talk 18:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Beyond this article, there has been strong debate about WP:EL itself over the past month+. There have been revert wars, over which version of WP:EL has gained consensus. [24]
There has been discussion over applying the principles of reliable sources when it comes to choosing links to include. The cooperative research timeline seems to word things in a misleading way with many weasel words. For example, on the timeline concerning United Airlines Flight 93, scroll to the bottom and see where it says "(After 10:06 a.m.): Witnesses Report Lack of Plane Wreckage at Flight 93 Crash Scene". It seems they are selectively choosing quotes and sources to imply something that the references really don't support. For example the timeline only quotes Frank Monoco, "If you would go down there, it would look like a trash heap. There’s nothing but tiny pieces of debris. It’s just littered with small pieces" The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reference supporting a "lack of plane wreckage" also says quotes Jeff Phillips "There was one part of a seat burning up there, that was something you could recognize." [25] I'm an ardent support of WP:RS and strongly believe it applies to choosing external links. I don't think the cooperative timeline, given its anonymous nature and the way it puts sources together, is a good reliable, neutral source that we should include here. -- Aude ( talk) 19:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to recap why this link doesn't belong here.
-WP:EL says Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain once it becomes a Featured article
-WP:EL says: Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors
The Cooperative Research link is not and can never be complete because of their self admitted "unabashed focus on failures, problems, and controversies" If a external timeline must be included I put a CNN link forward as a compromise, but that has been regularly removed by NuclearUmpf. If our timeline is not detailed enough (or somehow lacking in other ways) I would suggest that work be done on it to improve it instead of edit warring over a POV external link. Rx StrangeLove 19:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunate little edit war you have going on here. I count 18 insertions of the link by 5 editors (11 from NuclearUmpf) and 17 removals by 7 editors (5 each by Tom H and Rx Strange), with no attempt at dispute resolution, by editors who should know better. The argument over external link policy is largely fruitless; even if the link is within policy, it still requires editorial judgement to determine whether or not to include it. And when a group of editors can't come to an agreement on matters of judgement they are expected to use the dispute resolution process such as a third opinion, RFC or mediation. Regarding the complaint forwarded to WP:AE regarding NuclearUmpf, I'm not going to sanction one editor out of a 12-person edit war. If you attempt some type of dispute resolution and he does not accept the outcome, bring the case back. Regarding the broader issue of the link, Abe Froman has given you a third opinion, and for what it's worth I'll give you a fourth. I don't like it. Whether it is a wiki-like open collaborative project, or the entries are selected by an editor, it clearly has a strong editorial voice, and we don't know who that voice belongs to or what his or her credibility is. Any timeline of the terrorist attacks that opens with a newspaper editorial against the administration is pushing an agenda, and if we are going to try and exclude conspiracists who argue the attacks were a brilliant scheme of the all-powerful US government, we ought to also exclude people who argue that the attacks were the result of a criminally incompetent government. Plus, they're selling a DVD and doing open fundraising on the site. If Abe's and my outside opinions are not sufficient, I suggest you follow the dispute resolution process. Further edit warring may result in re-protecting the article or blocking the involved editors. Remember that edit warring is not tolerated period, and that just because there is a written policy and bureaucracy for enforcing a 3 revert limit does not entitle you to 3 reverts in 23.9 hours, or 4 reverts in 24.1 hours. Settle this without further edit warring, please. Thatcher131 01:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
What's the conspiracy theory?-- Kingforaday1620 22:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph on hate crimes resulting from the attacks says "At least nine people were murdered within the United States as a result". This is a strong assertion, and one which I can't find the backing for in the source cited by the paragraph, though it does verify the rest of it. Have I overlooked something in the source or does this need its own citation? -- Sam Blanning (talk) 13:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the paragraph to better reflect the source. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 17:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is a terribly sad testimonial to the decline of American civilisation. Although the evidence (constituted by still and video photography as well as eyewitness accounts) is plain to see for anyone who cares to look, those who are being paid to dupe the American people from knowing the truth seem to be winning the battle. Is it credible that in this age of mass communication and higher education an utterly fallacious account such as that presented on this page continues to be peddled as the truth without serious challenges from the community of Wikipedians. The terrifying reality is that the evidence against what is presented in this article is so overwhelming that it beggars belief that the American people are not rising up to demand a full independent inquiry. Can anyone explain why, in the face of such clear and incontrovertible evidence that the 9/11 commission report is fraudulent, journalists are remaining so pliant? Have none of you guys got any balls (or integrity)? User:Langdell .08/12/06
Please do not use this talk page as a soapbox. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 16:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This has probably already been brought up, but in the offchance that it hasn't - this is in response to the info bar, which contains the text "Target(s) World Trade Center and The Pentagon (fourth hijacking is unknown)". I recall hearing/reading that the "original" targets were the World Trade Center, the White House, and the Capitol. The latter two were aborted towards the last minute when the terrorists realized that Bush was out of town - one of them went into the Pentagon, and the fourth was thought to be heading towards Camp David.
Perhaps, at the very least, the text could be changed to "Target(s): World Trade Center, Pentagon (fourth hijacking is unknown, but thought to be Camp David)"? I must admit zoning out over most 9/11 news, so I don't know if the theory I mentioned was ever disproven. -- Action Jackson IV 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I changed the timeline link to the timeline CNN produced. At the very least the cooperative research link doesn't have any consensus for it's addition. The CNN produced one might be a little more agreeable to everyone. Please just don't blindly revert, discuss why CNN's timeline should not be the one used. Rx StrangeLove 21:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Concensus has already gone for the cooperative research timeline. Sorry. We could put them both there if you'd like. -- SavoirFaireIsEverywhere 22:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
No, the timeline is essential to anyone who would like to gain more knowledge in 9/11 events. And per Nuclear: "A timeline compromised of multiple sources stands up to more scrutiny then one compromised of one source". Anyway, CNN's timeline is infintely less detailed, while Complete 9/11 Timeline is a whole database of information. Why would Wikipedia, whose primary goal is to bring information, choose less detailed source over more detailed and researched source? What the compromise will be? Both or Complete 9/11 Timeline? SalvNaut 20:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
your personal problems are touching (from your edit summary) You need to read WP:Civil The next step is dispute resolution if you keep it up. I've been arguing EL all along, your assertions that I haven't are deeply flawed. Rx StrangeLove 21:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I wrote it recently, 11t September Attacks. [26] It doesn't show up.
This article neglects to mention how the hijackers managed to get the box cutters on board; I think the 9/11 Commission Report discusses art supplies, or something to that degree. -- MosheA 18:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
According to the 9/11 Commission Report the controversial Saudi flight did not depart until September 20, 2001. However, according to the Saint Petersburg Times, these individuals departed on September 13, 2001. Although the Report came out later (July, 2004) than the article (June, 2004), it seems unlikely that the authors of the Report would have had time to take this article in consideration. It is therefore likely that the conclusion drawn in the Report is a conclusion irrespective of the findings in the article. Does anyone know if anything credible besides the Report has been written on this topic that also evaluates the findings in the article at hand? PJ 13:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Template:Campaignbox al-Qaeda attacks has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Aude ( talk) 16:11, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
I created the below and hopefully this can be filled and dicussed by everyone, if noone brings forth sections then I guess its obvious that there are no POV concerns. --
Nuclear
Zer0
21:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
This section is for editors to bring forth their claims of POV parts in the article for examination by the editing community. Please post a quote of what you feel is POV, then explain your reason afterwards.
Since the section will be numbered, please do not post up there any rebuttals and instead post them in this section below. Please stick to the format given. Thank you.
Dispute against 1.
Dispute against 2.
There have been many substantive discussion of the article. Here's a few examples from above.
I have brought up specifics before. See:
Typically we get the usual suspects (I call them the US for short), claimming nothing has been said. Then we request an POV tag and the US say why don't you just request a POV tag. This is a silly game. NuclearUmpf, if you really came to provide some reasoned independent analysis, you would have made sure the POV template was added rather than altering your remarks when you realized not even that minimal step has been taken.
I think we need to start with those. As one can see from reading the debate that's gone on here for quite some time, whenever someon raises changing the article from a Bush administration press release into an encylopedia article they're told things like "it's not going to happen". It's alot of work to compose encylopedic content then to find out that federal authorities won't the topic into the article. If we could come to an agreement over what the feds will accept, then we can better understand where to focus on drafting more detailed material. I think the list of POV problems and the sources needed to correct them are a good starting point for the conversation. -- Cplot 22:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be a movement away from discussion of NPOV to borderline personal attacks. The focus should be on actual disputes. I think what the dissenters are trying to say is:
I think this needs to be narrowed down to specific issues that, hopefully, can be discussed rationally. Peter Grey 22:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
These:
You want us to put in a section about what people "think" happened...ie:polls? Then you want us to add a list of conspiracy theory books to the article?-- MONGO 22:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Please add the {{POV}} template to the top of the article. The preceding discussion demontrates a clear dispute over NPOV problems. -- Cplot 22:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
"What does Iraq have to do with the 9/11 attacks at the time of them happening, the Iraq section should say that it was part of the WOT at most, which sprang from 9/11."
"As for living dead hijackers, you do realize that is because of stolen passports right? faked identities, and people with the same name as well as the rush to identify, none of the identified hijackers as of today are living, unless you count the silly supermarket tape of Atta."
"I think the problem is that you think conspiracy theories deserve as much weight as the actual events, which isnt the case here. The principle that would govern this situation calls for conspiracy theories to take up very little as they represent very little of the actual situation."
"Also sources have to pass WP:RS and WP:V if you feel certain sources are being removed that belong, then please present them on the talk page and let everyone chime in. I am a big representer of WP:RS and WP:V and citations. Instead of long rants like ago, try to coherently organize your points for people to read and reply to."
Someone has suggested that the article is run by what Wikipedia I think calls clowns (if I'm using the right term). It might be better for others to just avoid the discussion here for a while and look to draft a rewrite of the entire article elsewhere. It does no on eany good to engage here where they seek to bait people into 3rr violations or personal attacks. Obviously they're just playing games here. We can return later and fix the article. -- Cplot 22:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's a leap in logic if I ever saw one. Someone who works for the feds to fuck over Wikipedia is not likely a person. And personal attacks have to be directed at a person. There has to be a victim. You can't just charge someone with murder if there's no murder victim (though I suppose your superiors are working on that). If there's no personal attacked then it's not a personal attack. -- 70.8.56.126 02:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to make sure we're clear on that. Some of you are trying to argue that it's ok. It's not. -- 70.8.151.103 21:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, anyone can contribute as long as they follow the rules. Tom Harrison Talk 22:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. " Winston Smith via Lovelight 01:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Trolling removed
With the 1 week block for one of the instigators of the recent edit war ( Cplot ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)), does anyone have an objection to a request to remove protection on the article? -- StuffOfInterest 12:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I've added Complete 911 Timeline to externals, please leave it there… Lovelight 16:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Go there and read comments… then come back and say what's wrong with such source… Lovelight 18:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Actor Charlie Sheen believes the conspiracy theories and has strong doubts about the government's POV Here's thewww.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/200306charliesheen.htm link]. And all who have been saying that saying more on conspiracy theories is giving undue weight may have to eat your words-- Acebrock 19:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with acebrock: I don’t know if you guys watched the movie “9/11 mysteries” located at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003 and is sponsored by the www.st911.org website which is owned by Steven Jones, Kevin Barrett, Jim Fetzer, Morgan Reynolds, etc…they are all part of the scholar for 9/11 truth organization. Steven Jones, according to Wikipedia, is a professor of Physics, cold fusion researcher and member of the "9/11 Truth Movement.” There is an interview with Steven Jones on channel 2 News at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To4t5c3LZfg. Kevin Barrett supports Jones’ view. Barrett is a prof at the University of Wisconsin-Madison who has been studying the 9/11 reports for the last 2 years or so. There’s an interview with Barrett on Fox News at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmvGFVr6KNk&NR and on CNN on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfCFB0UApaE. He did another interview with Fox news and it’s at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn4jqGk0xTo. It’s really interesting. The first time they appeared I have to say I thought both Jones and Barrett were nutjobs but then I actually went to their www.st911.org website and realized that they had a point and the inaccuracies of the U.S Commission’s Report raised a lot of questions. I now believe along with other members of the 9/11 truth movement that it was an inside job done by members of the Bush administration. The film “9/11 mysteries” that I mentioned was quite thought provoking. The Femur (I think that’s how you spell it) report put out by the U.S government said that the structural damage of the Towers where due to impact of the plane and the resulting fires. But after the B-25 Mitchell bomber flew into the Empire State Building in 1945, the Towers were built with skyscraper crashes in mind. Les Robertson who is the WTC structural engineer is interviewed and he says that the Towers were built to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 (which was the largest plane at the time) hitting the building at any location. But the aircraft that hit the Towers was a Boeing 767 which is a smaller model and requires less fuel than the Boeing 707. When the plane hit there were two pockets of fire which at the time the firefighters who called it in said that they should be able to knock it down with only 2 water lines on the 78th floor. The movie goes on to explain that the fuel from the plane was consumed from the initial fire balls and the following minutes of fire. But the official report by the government says that the flames then spread throughout the building and the fire melted the core of that top floor causing it to collapse on the bottom floor and then the weight of the top floors caused the bottom floors to collapse as well. Hence the domino affect of the building collapse. But the controversy is that before the building collapsed the Towers stood for an hour smoldering but not flaming. The smoldering indicating an oxygen starved fire and so the fire was not burning successfully. And then DeMartini is interviewed who is the WTC construction manager. He explains that the building could have withstood multiple hits with a jetliner which is why the Towers stood for an hour after being hit. And then the part about the fire melting the steel initiating the collapse, the movie explains that no steel building before the Towers collapsed as a result of the fire, especially a fire that lasted for an hour. The movie that talks about how in 1975 the North WTC Tower had a fire that flamed for 3 hours (twice as long as the fires of 9/11) but didn’t collapse. In Feb of 2005 the Windsor Tower in Madrid sustained a 20 hour fire without much damage to its steel frame. The movie talks about how strong the steel supports were and how unlikely it would have been that the floors from above were heavy enough to give way to the bottom floors. And then there’s an interview with Paul Goldberger, an architect, who talks about how strong the steel was. PBS did a simulation of the Towers collapsing but in the simulation the core was left standing. But in reality the core steel structure completely disappeared and was turned into dust. The movie then goes onto explain that the fires could not have been hot enough to melt steel which melts at 2750 degrees Fahrenheit and above and that none of the materials could have burned to produce that required temperature. Plus, no survivors reported this much heat while the Towers were standing… they have interviews with the survivors and firefighters who reported hearing explosions going off at floors below were the plane hit. You can see in the movie some of the explosions occurring. The movie agues that since sound reaches us after what we see we should have heard the boom (if it was a result of the building collapsing) after the collapse not before, which is why some researchers believe that the Towers fell after explosives were detonated inside the building. The movie goes on to explain that the fires could never have been hot enough to reach the temp of 2750. The movie examines Dr. Eagers’ (MIT) statement which it explains doesn’t explain the absence of the core. The fall of the Towers was not characteristic of a typical implosion but rather an explosion involving high energy explosives. The argument is that if it was a typical domino effect than so much debris would not have been thrown outward, such as the 600000 lb chunk of steel (twice the weight of a Boeing airliner) flew 400 feet across the street and was wedged into a financial center buildings as well as the april 2006 discovery of bone remains found on near by building tops. The movie talks about how according to siesmic data collected the North Tower came down in about 8 second and the South Tower in about 10 seconds which is roughly free fall where if it was a pancake collapse as the official report says then it should have occurred in atleast 1 minute and 36 seconds. The movie explains that the only way that the buildings could have come down so fast is if the bottom floors held no resistance and completely gave in to the top floors and that the top floors fell at almost free fall. Hence, the speculation that explosives were set off at the bottom floors as well as interviews with survivors at the bottom floors that heard explosions going off and you can see them in the videos of the Towers collapsing. The movie explains that the internal explosions would explain why the basement walls (slurry walls) of the Tower which were built to hold back the Hudson river and had always held the weight of the 110 floors but after the collapse the 3 foot thick slurry walls were found to have shifted inwards upto 18 inches something most likely caused by powerful explosives near the wall. There’s an interview with George J. Tamaro who was the civil engineer that built the basement walls. Then Steven Jones in an interview with NBC news talks about how the presence of molten medal is evidence of the use of high temperature explosives such as thermite which only takes 2 seconds to reach temperatures of upto 4500 degrees Fahrenheit which is well above the melting point of steel at 2750. The steel supports near the bottom of the Towers were melted which indicates that the collapse of the bottom Towers was not due to the weight of the top Towers alone and explains why the building collapsed in only 10 seconds. Demolition experts explain what occurs in a typical demolition. The movie explains the use of shape chargers (I think that’s how you spell it) in controlled demolition to control how the steel columns of the WTC Towers were cut. Cuts seen on the steel supports in the debris were characteristic of those made by shape chargers. The movie explains that the way that most of the building fell into its basement is analogous to the goal in control demolition. The movie talks about Silverstein who acquired lease of the WTC building in spring of 2006 and then acquired insurance that covered acts of terrorism and the right to rebuild the complex if it was destroyed. The movie talks about how after 9/11 Silverstein bought his insurancers in court to obtain double his policy limit because the double hijacking constituted two terrorist attacks on his building. He ended up with 7 billion dollars on his original 15 million dollar investment. It talks about the controversary surrounding building 7 and why it fell. Silverstein claimed that he said to pull the firefighters out of the building and was not referring to the building itself which is controversial because there were no firefighters in the building at the time according to the firefighter chief and other sources. The way that building 7 imploded indicated that it was demolished. It talks about Mayor Guliani (I think that’s who you spell his name). The U.S report indicates that WTC7 fell due to fire alone (approx. at 1 hour of movie) but many engineers are doubting including an interview with the structural engineer Ramon Gilsanz who talks about how it was an implosion and could not have been because of the fires alone. The movie talks about the mystery surrounding why the building would have been demolished. It talks about how the building houses the CIA, United States Secret Service, and the mayor’s office of emergency management. Lost in the debris of WTC7 were thousands of case files relating to corporate fraud of companies like Worldcom and Enron (Micheal Moore talks about this in his movie Fahrenheit 9/11). The movie points out that noone died in the collapse of building WTC7. Listen to survivor accounts at 1 hour and 1 minute where they talk about how prior to the plane hitting the Towers, the building WTC7 was completely evacuated but people in the other Towers were told to go back to their offices because it was safer there. At 1 hour 4 minute it talks about how the director that provided electronic security of the Dullus airport and the Towers involved in Sept 11 attacks is Bush’s younger brother Marvin P. Bush..Moore talks about their involvement in 9/11 in the movie Fahrenheit 9/11. Marvin installed a new security system at the world trade center by Seracom. Wirt Walker is Bush’s cousin and the CEO of Seracom (Moore talks about this in his movie). Scott Forbes reported that the weekend before 9/11 there was a power down in the Towers and during this time all security cameras were off and pretty much anyone could walk into the building. Many workmen entered during this time for internet upgrading and to fix the power problem. They have interviews with workers who say that they were given notification that the workers were here for internet upgrading. Scott Forbes notified the 9/11 Commission about the unusually long power outrage but was ignored. The movie talks about prior to Sept 11, bomb sniffing dogs were removed. The Towers cost millions a year to upkeep and the clean up of asbestos on the Towers would have cost over a billion dollars. There’s an interview with Kevin Ryan who worked for Underwriters Laboratories and he talks about the claim that the plane impact caused the asbestos to come off of the steel allowing it to melt. He claims that even if that was true the fires still weren’t hot enough to melt the steel. Watch the video for the details. It’s really interesting. Dr. Jim Fetzer at the University of Wisconsin Madison is one of the people of the scholars for 9/11 truth organization (www.st911.org). Here’s a conference in which he talks about how the universities across the United States should allow professors to teach the events leading to 9/11 in the classroom as well as alternative theories involving the Bush administration at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1jb-0ClpbM. He also talks about Saddam and Osama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jennifer754 ( talk • contribs)
I've added the POV template requested countless times in this discussion. Please ensure it stays there unil these NPOV issues are resolved. -- 68.30.26.171 19:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you explain why you reposted this? This is the third time you have posted the text above in this article. This time you included the answers. They exist also above. I will assume good faith and let you explain this behaviour. -- Regebro 15:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
"The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda: because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda," George Bush via Lovelight 16:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qaeda and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qaeda to provide material or operational support, United States Senate via Lovelight 17:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
You want to know my problems with the article? It reads as if the 9/11 attacks, as the government described them, are the way the events happened, and it treats the conspiracy theorists as a tiny minority that are hardly worth mentioning. I want to expand the conspiracy theory section to reflect the fact that a lot of people believe that the government had some involvement as well as naming prominent adherents, and I want to change the wording around, (murdered and massacred to killed, for example) at the very least, and at the very best, showing that there are many questons raised about the events. I don't think I can make this any more clear, though obviously it's vague because this is the third time I've brought it up. Mediation should be done, regardless of whether we think there is a dispute, remember, if there is disute over whether a dispute exists, then a dispute probably exists. That's in Wikipedia Policy.-- I need a vacation 18:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
What kind of conclusion is that? And who are we suppose to help? How can you conclude such thing? What to hell your post has to do with my proposal? I'll answer you and save you some time, this things you are throwing at me have nothing to do with it. Not a thing. Read it carefully, because it was constructed carefully, it is intended to serve as note in encyclopedia you know?
Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq.
sourced with: ^ "Latest on the attacks on America, 7:00 PM", CBS News, September 11, 2001.
Mongo, stay on topic. SalvNaut is clearly trying to fix these serious NPOV problems. You cannot simply say "well the article reflects my POV so I've asnwered you". One suggestion would be to restate this as: "CBS News reported that on the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.' This way it makes it clear and verifiable. A reader can verify that CBS reported this. A reader cannot veify that US intelligence agencies interecepted communications. -- 70.8.139.192 21:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Mongo wrote: "First off...get a username...secondly," Mongo do you have no regard at all for what Wikpedia is trying to accomplish. Everywhere throughout Wikipedia there are users who take NPOV seriously; who take verifiability serioiusly; who take no original researcy seriously, unlke you. And many of those who make valuable contributions to Wikpedia do so annonymously: another tenant of wikis. Again, if you don't like the idea behiind wikipedia, then don't participate. But please don't come in here and insist Wikipedia be like Fox News or the New York Times. Just go participate in those insitutions if that's what you're looking for.
Secondly, Osama bin Laden is a living person and so we must be careful to adhere to Wikpedia's policies on that. There has not been any indictment of Osama bin Laden on this: let alone a conviction. Most of the evidence that I presume exists has never been aired in a court of law. Now I believe Osama bin Laden had something to do with these attacks, but that doesn't let me (or anyone else) run rough shot over over Wikpedia policies and guidelines. We're here to write and encyclopedia: a wiki encyclopedia. Join in that process or just recuse yourself. Looking through these dicussion archives I find a lot of evidence that you're here to disrupt and not contribute.
Now that it's clear that there is not a concesnsus among editors, it's time for us to figure out a way to make this artricle meet Wikipedia's standards. There are so many problems in this article it's going to take a log of work. Your attempts to shout down every editor you don't agree with only makes it that much more cumbersome to fix the article. -- 68.30.46.228 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
What I've found so far is this report about communication intercepted betwen Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September [4]. So... who knows what CBS report was about (foreknowledge?). Maybe it's not a good idea to use CBS report from the day of attack as a source? SalvNaut 21:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
On the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.[37]
Please remove this unverifed statement per arguments above. We are not here to repeat everything what media says. This sentence should be at least clarified with "On the day of attacks CBS reported that...." but even then, I see no reason to include it. There were numerous false statements in the media on that day. Or it could be sourced much much better to explain who, when, who intercepted, etc. I've only found info about Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September. SalvNaut 22:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A new source has been presented - very good. The problem is that there is not a word in this source about Osama bin Ladin. Only about "interception of telephone conversations between jubilant terrorist supporters" and from the article it can be read that those were other terrorist cells. Please, stay strict and sharp minded, and if you want to have it here rephrase it appropriately (to whoever made the edit). Replacing "Osama" with "members of Al-Qaeda" or something similiar. Don't you think it's stupid that the article, at its present form, states that Osama called hijackers on the day of attacks, while even FBI admits that they do not have enough proof to pursue Osama for 9/11? SalvNaut 00:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so what we have now, is communication between Osama and his stepmother intercepted on 9th of September [5] and "... an intercept of some information, including people associated with Osama bin Laden, who acknowledged a couple of targets were hit." (on 11th, right?) Can someone make an edit that would reflect just that? SalvNaut 20:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to remove the edit protection to include a link to the September 11 2001 fifth anniversary page?
isnt calling 9/11 a "terrorist" attact POV? one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Keltik31 16:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Then the state of Israel is a terrorist nation and Ariel Sharon is a terrorist Keltik31 17:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I have tried. But it gets deleted by the PC Police. I have referred to the acts of terror against the British in Palestine as terror and called Begin a terrorist and I get scolded. Keltik31 18:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose dumping the word terrorist entirely, or at least rewording all mentions of it it, because it's listed at WP:WTA-- I need a vacation 18:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
1. The words terrorism and terrorist may be cited where there is a verifiable and cited indication of who is calling a person or group terrorist. This is the standard Wikipedia format "X says Y". If this is followed, the article should make it clear who is calling them a terrorist, and that the word does not appear to be used, unqualified, by the "narrative voice" of the article. In other cases, terms such as "militant(s)" may be a suitable alternative, implying a group or individual who uses force to attain their objectives. (Note: - The term is not as likely to be disputed if the person or organization verifiably and officially calls themselves "terrorist". But then this should be cited.) 2. It is often not necessary to label a group or individual as a terrorist, any more than to say "X is an evil person". Describing their acts will make clear what they are.-- I need a vacation 19:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Article structure Separating all the controversial aspects of a topic into a single section results in a very tortured form of writing, especially a back-and-forth dialogue between "proponents" and "opponents". It also creates a hierarchy of fact - the main passage is "true" and "undisputed", whereas the rest are "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that may often be inappropriate.
Since many of the topics in an encyclopedia will inevitably encounter controversy, editors should attempt to write in a manner that folds debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them out into separate sections that ignore each other.
From Wikipedia:Words To Avoid:
Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.
frpm WP:NPOV:We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a reasonable idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such details.
In summary, controversy sections should not be used as a tool to marginalize criticism.
And one can, and many do, see this as happening in this article, and as such I see no reason to not expand the conspiracy theory section.-- I need a vacation 20:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I have created a proposed version of the aricle here. Do not edit the page, but do read through it, look at the history, and comment on each edit on the talk page
Massacred and murdered to killed
Removed all mention of terrorism per WP:WTA
Reworded pentagon hit a bit (probably going to be challenged come game time) Now says "It is generally believed that the pentagon was hit by said flight"
"It is generally believed that the pentagon was hit by said flight". Yes, and it is generally beleived that 2+2 is 4, but of course, we know that to be a government coverup. ;) Anyway, you are here mixing up several edits into one, claiming it to be one edit. That makes discussion hard. Please take up the changes ONE BY ONE. And we can discuss them. Don't claim that a rewording of once sentence + the reformulation of the word terrorist + the change of "massacred" to "kileld" is ONE edit. It is clearly THREE edits. -- Regebro 23:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
It has nothing to with what you do at once or not. I repeat: Please take up each proposed change one by one with an explanation of why you want to that change. And don't refer to a fuzzy "Edit 1" on a subpage, which requires people do go in and look at a diff on a subpage to understand what you wnat to change. Don't fork the article, don't treat the changes as a whole, don't refer to the article as a whole as being POV without arguing for it. Just simply describe the changes you want to do, one by one, and your reasons for the change. I really don't understand why you still refuse to do that. It's not like it's hard to do, right? -- Regebro 13:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Expanded conspiracy theory section and provided reliable sources
section with changes Conspiracy theories
Various conspiracy theories, have emerged that question the mainstream account of the attacks. Conspiracy theorists as well as notable celebrities, such as actor Charlie Sheenwww.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/200306charliesheen.htm] and William Rodriguez, A janitor working in the towers at the time of the attacks, [6] have said the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by planted explosives. Some say a commercial airliner did not crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. Most conspiracy theories say individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and let them happen, or actually planned the attacks. While conspiracy theories about Jewish or Israeli involvement are "a core part of the belief system of anti-Semites and millions of others around the world (unchanged cite here), in the United States a minority of conspiracy theorists say there was Israeli or Jewish involvement in the attacks.
One Poll by Scripps Howard and the Ohio University system found that 36% of Americans suspected Government involvement or complacency in the attacks. Another poll by Zogby International concluded that 49% of New Yorkers suspected that the US government had some involvemement in the attacks. [7]
Many groups have sprung up with evidence of government involvement, most notably The 9/11 Truth Movement, which notes that the government failed to intercept any of the hijacked planes, and that the World Trade Center fell into it's footprint. However, the latter has been challenged by structural engineers, who say that a building weighing a million tons, and being 95% air could only come down in that fashion [8] and the burning jet fuel caused the steel beams to get soft and rubbery, eventually resulting in failure. [9]
Also noted by conspiracy theorists is the fact that the CIA warned President Bush that "there was a high probability of a spectacular terrorist attack." [10] Also noted by conspiracy theorists is the reports from several firefighters that they saw flashes and heard explosions just before the collapse. [11] Many conspiracy theorists also think that United 93 didn't crash into Shanksville PA. and and flight 77 didn't crash into The Pentagon, but when asked where the planes and passengers went they say it doesn't matter. [12]
fixed typos and added info I forgot about.
Massive additions to the 9/11 conspiracy theory section. Kept it fairly neutral and cited the media (and MSNBC is a reliable source)
(see above)
Probably in the original as well but the WOT section needs sources, the view of most US citizens? that kind of comment definatly needs sources and the rest of that paragraph as well.
Final paragraph in "Fatalities" before "Damage" needs sources.
"The hijackers" this section needs sources. Is "Arab men" appropriate? Doesn't Arab refer to Saudi Arabian only?
"9/11 Commission Report" Should be expanded.
--
Nuclear
Zer0
21:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Most of the NPOV problems I saw were fixed and I cited some sources. I'll pull them up
Damage In addition to the 110-floor Twin Towers of the World Trade Center itself, five other buildings at the World Trade Center site, including 7 World Trade Center and the Marriott Hotel, two New York City Subway stations, and St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church were destroyed or badly damaged. In total, in Manhattan, 25 buildings were damaged and all seven buildings of the World Trade Center Complex had to be razed. [13] Two additional buildings were later condemned: the Deutsche Bank Building across Liberty Street from the World Trade Center complex, due to the uninhabitable, toxic conditions inside the office tower [14] and Borough of Manhattan Community College's Fiterman Hall at 30 West Broadway due to extensive damage in the attacks. [15] These buildings are both (as of September 2006) slated for deconstruction. [16]
Communications equipment such as broadcast radio, television and two-way radio antenna towers were damaged beyond repair. In Arlington County, a portion of the Pentagon was severely damaged by fire and one section of the building collapsed.(source already here)
Arab men was changed to men of middle eastern descent and sourced
Didn't tackle the challenge of expanding the 9/11 commision report section
how timely? just visited talk page to say that this article misses bad on NPOV policy. Then i see your post at bottom. this is much better than what's there. i couldn believe how pov the current one is. one other suggestion. "conspiracy theories" seems a bit off too. even more than 'terrorist'. after all isn't that just used to dismiss dissenting viewpoints? how bout something like 'further evidence or 'dissenting viewpoints'. Seems much more encyclopedic to me. -- SoLittleTime 23:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
should add citation of a specific prominent theorist who thinks the jews coordinated the attacks. otherwise the quote from the adl looks way too defensive. the way it is now it just comes out of nowhere.—Preceding unsigned comment added by SoLittleTime ( talk • contribs)
And that's the end of the talk page there.
Okay, here is the first paragraph of proposed changes from Acebrock. The major changes to the paragraph are the removal of the term "terrorist" and the addition of "is thought to have crashed into the Pentagon" for flight 77. Please comment below. -- PTR 19:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001. The victims were predominantly civilians.
On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen men [1] affiliated with al-Qaeda [2] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners. Each team of hijackers included a trained pilot. The hijackers crashed two of the airliners ( United Airlines Flight 175 and American Airlines Flight 11) into the World Trade Center in New York City, one plane into each tower ( 1 WTC and 2 WTC). A third airliner ( American Airlines Flight 77) is thought to have crashed into the Pentagon in Arlington County, Virginia. Passengers and members of the flight crew on the fourth aircraft ( United Airlines Flight 93) attempted to retake control of their plane from the hijackers; that plane crashed into a field near the town of Shanksville in rural Somerset County, Pennsylvania. In addition to the 19 hijackers, 2,973 people died; another 24 are missing and presumed dead.
I don't agree with removing the word "terrorist" since it is used by all WP:RS sources. This is considered and called (by all reliable sources) a terrorist attack and not a suicide attack. I don't agree with "thought to have crashed into the Pentagon" since we have no sources with that wording. All the WP:RS sources we have say the plane crashed into the Pentagon. There are those who have other thoughts and theories but these are not supported, at this time, by reliably sourced facts.-- PTR 19:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
As the article is locked, could someone please add interwiki to the icelandic article: [[is:Hryðjuverkin 11. september 2001]]. -- Jóna Þórunn 20:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Please add following: "Immediately after 9/11 attacks US officials accused Saddam Hussein for harboring and supporting Al-Qeida. False statement served as turning point in means of justification and pubic acceptance for 2003. invasion of Iraq."; to appropriate place (see discussion) in The War on Terrorism section.
Well Reg, thank you for turning this into circus, I'm afraid that I'll call for meditation/arbitration on this one, you were free to suggest and/or clarify that word, you continued to disrupt discussion, you failed to check already provided references and I have no intention to repost them especially for you… Neutrality of the article is disputed, place appropriate tag at the entrance point or inform the world that this page is property of US and that simple truth has no place on it… Lovelight 19:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
In the aftermath of the attacks, many U.S. citizens held the view that the attacks had "changed the world forever."
The Bush administration declared a war on terrorism, with the stated goals of bringing Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda to justice and preventing the emergence of other terrorist networks using economic and military sanctions against states perceived as harboring terrorists and increasing global surveillance and intelligence sharing. The U.S. was not the only nation to increase its military readiness, with other notable examples being the Philippines and Indonesia, countries that have their own internal conflicts with Islamic extremist terrorism.
Please add the POV template to the top of the article. The preceding discussion demonstrates a clear dispute over NPOV problems. * Lovelight 21:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
…"Deaf dumb and blind basketcases". That may be my opinion, but it is my POV... Nobody except you, Cplot and the other conspiracy pushers have turned anything into a circus… "As you see Reg, due to this unfortunate syllogism what you actually did was calling me: "Deaf dumb and blind basketcase…" Lovelight 13:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of the article, right before the table of contents, there's the sentence:
If you come to the main article via a redirect, clicking that link reloads the page before jumping to the anchor link. It should just link to #Fatalities. dcandeto 06:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm certain that many of you consider a four year long protection of main article absolutely normal occurrence, but this protection of the talk page? Lovelight 09:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
This isnt directed at Lovelight and really is directed at both sides of this polarizing debate, but why is the Senate only right when they agree with people? They are right when they goto war, wrong when they say no links to AQ. Wrong when they vote to goto war, right when they say no links to AQ. Its just amusing to watch a source be discounted for their foolishness, then praised for their level headed judgement. --
Nuclear
Zer0
16:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
There were some Vigilant war games on that day, why are these not presented? They were more then crucial for cascading failures of 911… Lovelight 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
There are several things which should be considered when adding an external link.
What should be linked to:
Links to be considered:
This is the home page for the Complete 911 Timeline investigative project, one of several grassroots investigations being hosted by the Cooperative Research website. The data published as part of this investigation has been collected, organized, and published by members of the public who are registered users of this website.
-- PTR 16:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Blogs often provide commentary or news on a particular subject, such as food, politics, or local news; some function as more personal online diaries. A typical blog combines text, images, and links to other blogs, web pages, and other media related to its topic. The ability for readers to leave comments in an interactive format is an important part of many blogs.
What you're trying to do is to insert another minute by minute timeline, which we already have… would you consider removing other timeline (rhetorical q)? Before anything that link is WP:EL, would you care to share the keywords u used to present that particular context? I'm not sure why you have to disagree? As stated earlier: "anyone who disputes that spring should take another visit, click on any section and verify that all articles are properly sourced and cited…" Lovelight 15:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Protected: See complaint filed at WP:AE. I will review the situation tonight after work. I have protected the page in the mean time. Hopefully there will be an amicable resolution before I come back to this. Thatcher131 17:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I am new to this discussion. In this article I see a timeline box, and multiple wiki articles supporting it. I do not believe the proposed External Timeline deserves inclusion. I read through the external timeline ( and it's a long read ) and found it to be exhaustively detailed, but conspiratorial in tone. An example: in the timeline is an alleged Bush Assassination attempt in Florida. In the timeline, several newspaper citations place middle eastern men and George W Bush in Florida on September 11th 2001. But it is the editor at History Commons that makes the leap, and alleges those middle eastern men were on an assassination assignment. Since History Commons is not a news organization, I don't think their spin on cited sources deserves inclusion in this hot topic. Abe Froman 18:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
While the link might be appropriate among others in Timeline of the September 11, 2001 attacks, an external link to any time line is not useful on this page, and invites other external links, adding cruft at no profit to Wikipedia. We have a link in the template to our own timeline, and to my mind that is enough. If a link must be included (and I do not see why), I prefer the link to CNN's timeline as more reputable. I notice that one edit not only added the cooperativeresearch.org timeline, but also removed the html comment urging people not to add external links without consensus. Tom Harrison Talk 18:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Beyond this article, there has been strong debate about WP:EL itself over the past month+. There have been revert wars, over which version of WP:EL has gained consensus. [24]
There has been discussion over applying the principles of reliable sources when it comes to choosing links to include. The cooperative research timeline seems to word things in a misleading way with many weasel words. For example, on the timeline concerning United Airlines Flight 93, scroll to the bottom and see where it says "(After 10:06 a.m.): Witnesses Report Lack of Plane Wreckage at Flight 93 Crash Scene". It seems they are selectively choosing quotes and sources to imply something that the references really don't support. For example the timeline only quotes Frank Monoco, "If you would go down there, it would look like a trash heap. There’s nothing but tiny pieces of debris. It’s just littered with small pieces" The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reference supporting a "lack of plane wreckage" also says quotes Jeff Phillips "There was one part of a seat burning up there, that was something you could recognize." [25] I'm an ardent support of WP:RS and strongly believe it applies to choosing external links. I don't think the cooperative timeline, given its anonymous nature and the way it puts sources together, is a good reliable, neutral source that we should include here. -- Aude ( talk) 19:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to recap why this link doesn't belong here.
-WP:EL says Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain once it becomes a Featured article
-WP:EL says: Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors
The Cooperative Research link is not and can never be complete because of their self admitted "unabashed focus on failures, problems, and controversies" If a external timeline must be included I put a CNN link forward as a compromise, but that has been regularly removed by NuclearUmpf. If our timeline is not detailed enough (or somehow lacking in other ways) I would suggest that work be done on it to improve it instead of edit warring over a POV external link. Rx StrangeLove 19:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunate little edit war you have going on here. I count 18 insertions of the link by 5 editors (11 from NuclearUmpf) and 17 removals by 7 editors (5 each by Tom H and Rx Strange), with no attempt at dispute resolution, by editors who should know better. The argument over external link policy is largely fruitless; even if the link is within policy, it still requires editorial judgement to determine whether or not to include it. And when a group of editors can't come to an agreement on matters of judgement they are expected to use the dispute resolution process such as a third opinion, RFC or mediation. Regarding the complaint forwarded to WP:AE regarding NuclearUmpf, I'm not going to sanction one editor out of a 12-person edit war. If you attempt some type of dispute resolution and he does not accept the outcome, bring the case back. Regarding the broader issue of the link, Abe Froman has given you a third opinion, and for what it's worth I'll give you a fourth. I don't like it. Whether it is a wiki-like open collaborative project, or the entries are selected by an editor, it clearly has a strong editorial voice, and we don't know who that voice belongs to or what his or her credibility is. Any timeline of the terrorist attacks that opens with a newspaper editorial against the administration is pushing an agenda, and if we are going to try and exclude conspiracists who argue the attacks were a brilliant scheme of the all-powerful US government, we ought to also exclude people who argue that the attacks were the result of a criminally incompetent government. Plus, they're selling a DVD and doing open fundraising on the site. If Abe's and my outside opinions are not sufficient, I suggest you follow the dispute resolution process. Further edit warring may result in re-protecting the article or blocking the involved editors. Remember that edit warring is not tolerated period, and that just because there is a written policy and bureaucracy for enforcing a 3 revert limit does not entitle you to 3 reverts in 23.9 hours, or 4 reverts in 24.1 hours. Settle this without further edit warring, please. Thatcher131 01:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
What's the conspiracy theory?-- Kingforaday1620 22:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph on hate crimes resulting from the attacks says "At least nine people were murdered within the United States as a result". This is a strong assertion, and one which I can't find the backing for in the source cited by the paragraph, though it does verify the rest of it. Have I overlooked something in the source or does this need its own citation? -- Sam Blanning (talk) 13:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the paragraph to better reflect the source. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 17:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is a terribly sad testimonial to the decline of American civilisation. Although the evidence (constituted by still and video photography as well as eyewitness accounts) is plain to see for anyone who cares to look, those who are being paid to dupe the American people from knowing the truth seem to be winning the battle. Is it credible that in this age of mass communication and higher education an utterly fallacious account such as that presented on this page continues to be peddled as the truth without serious challenges from the community of Wikipedians. The terrifying reality is that the evidence against what is presented in this article is so overwhelming that it beggars belief that the American people are not rising up to demand a full independent inquiry. Can anyone explain why, in the face of such clear and incontrovertible evidence that the 9/11 commission report is fraudulent, journalists are remaining so pliant? Have none of you guys got any balls (or integrity)? User:Langdell .08/12/06
Please do not use this talk page as a soapbox. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 16:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This has probably already been brought up, but in the offchance that it hasn't - this is in response to the info bar, which contains the text "Target(s) World Trade Center and The Pentagon (fourth hijacking is unknown)". I recall hearing/reading that the "original" targets were the World Trade Center, the White House, and the Capitol. The latter two were aborted towards the last minute when the terrorists realized that Bush was out of town - one of them went into the Pentagon, and the fourth was thought to be heading towards Camp David.
Perhaps, at the very least, the text could be changed to "Target(s): World Trade Center, Pentagon (fourth hijacking is unknown, but thought to be Camp David)"? I must admit zoning out over most 9/11 news, so I don't know if the theory I mentioned was ever disproven. -- Action Jackson IV 14:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I changed the timeline link to the timeline CNN produced. At the very least the cooperative research link doesn't have any consensus for it's addition. The CNN produced one might be a little more agreeable to everyone. Please just don't blindly revert, discuss why CNN's timeline should not be the one used. Rx StrangeLove 21:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Concensus has already gone for the cooperative research timeline. Sorry. We could put them both there if you'd like. -- SavoirFaireIsEverywhere 22:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
No, the timeline is essential to anyone who would like to gain more knowledge in 9/11 events. And per Nuclear: "A timeline compromised of multiple sources stands up to more scrutiny then one compromised of one source". Anyway, CNN's timeline is infintely less detailed, while Complete 9/11 Timeline is a whole database of information. Why would Wikipedia, whose primary goal is to bring information, choose less detailed source over more detailed and researched source? What the compromise will be? Both or Complete 9/11 Timeline? SalvNaut 20:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
your personal problems are touching (from your edit summary) You need to read WP:Civil The next step is dispute resolution if you keep it up. I've been arguing EL all along, your assertions that I haven't are deeply flawed. Rx StrangeLove 21:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I wrote it recently, 11t September Attacks. [26] It doesn't show up.
This article neglects to mention how the hijackers managed to get the box cutters on board; I think the 9/11 Commission Report discusses art supplies, or something to that degree. -- MosheA 18:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
According to the 9/11 Commission Report the controversial Saudi flight did not depart until September 20, 2001. However, according to the Saint Petersburg Times, these individuals departed on September 13, 2001. Although the Report came out later (July, 2004) than the article (June, 2004), it seems unlikely that the authors of the Report would have had time to take this article in consideration. It is therefore likely that the conclusion drawn in the Report is a conclusion irrespective of the findings in the article. Does anyone know if anything credible besides the Report has been written on this topic that also evaluates the findings in the article at hand? PJ 13:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Template:Campaignbox al-Qaeda attacks has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Aude ( talk) 16:11, 5 February 2009 (UTC)