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Don t know where to put it, but beautiful hint to 9-11:
"Dean had a sweater wrapped around his ears to keep warm. He said we were a band of Arabs coming in to blow up New York." (page 112 - Penguin Edition. For all others: At the end of the second chapter in Part Two of the book.) 88.73.57.205 16:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Invoking a comparison of the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 to those associated with Pearl Harbor is very misleading, as the latter has much less general evidence and support for its claims. It should be removed to keep an NPOV. Sloverlord 01:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
have u compared your country to canada... we have civil rights you cant even fathom, 1984 bullshit does not exist here, we dont have massive federal agencies observing our every move,we have REAL equality, the right to travel to cuba, not to mention the fact that we dont get slammed as anti- canadian for disagreeing with the prime minister...you guys wasted your money on an army that cant even get its job done in iraq, and now your up to your eyeballs in debt
i suggest you learn a bit more about canada, a very similar, much more liberal version of youre own great country, albeit much smaller
I wondered why the information available at the below link has not been mentioned on this page. The people on the list include highly respected members of the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, USA Army Generals, ex-CIA employees (and many others) who all openly, publically and vehemently voice their belief that the official 9/11 story is deeply flawed (to say the least). If these people's beliefs don't count as anything towards the 9/11 conspiracy theories, then what on earth does count?
Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Critics of 9/11 Commission Report
Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report. Several even allege government complicity in the terrible acts of 9/11. This web site is a collection of their public statements. It should be made clear that none of these individuals are affiliated with this web site.
Listed at the below link are highly critical statements about the 9/11 Commission Report and/or calls for a new 9/11 investigation publicly made by over 50 of these senior officials. Their collective voices give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed. These individuals cannot be simply dismissed as irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their sincere concern, backed by their decades of service to their country, demonstrate that criticism of the Report is not irresponsible, illogical, nor disloyal, per se. In fact, it can be just the opposite.
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
Stop deleting the information! edit it, don't delete it!
Proposed change:
-- PTR 19:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
What happened to the word "alleged"? The fact is that there was no criminal investigation that proved what happened on 9/11, therefore the government's story is only one conspiracy theory out of about two, which are: (a) 19 Arab terrorists with box cutters did it, and (b) The US government did it. I have no problem with people picking one theory over another, but I do have a problem with unproven theories being stated as if they are proven facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.101.191 ( talk • contribs)
why don't you google USS Liberty and see what your govt (LBJ) said when the unmarked Israeli jets were attacking the ship. He said he wanted the ship at the bottom of the Mediterranean. Happy to napalm and kill his own on the most decorated warship in the fleet. Does the President in that case represent the US Govt? Observer 25 October 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his Body of Secrets thus: "Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."
This section begins "Within hours of the attack". Surely someone was aware that the planes had been hijacked before they crashed. Was this really the first government response? Kernow 16:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes it was, Rumsfeld also gave a stand down order, NORAD stood down.
I think it is highly unfair that the other side of 9/11 is not being shown here, many firefighters, police and Americans no longer believe the official report.
And to be honest to look at ALL the evidence on ALL sides, to say it is 100% concrete is denial.
Something evil happened on 9/11, but I believe we dont yet know who or why it was carried out
There's not a NPOV; only the governments POV. The Responsibility and Motives section only gives the governments POV, with no evidence. How is a "1998 fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden" related, and where's the evidence that shows it relates? If this is the "day that changed everything," then why are the only Long-term effects the Economic aftermath and Potential health effects? How about a section about the perpetual war? How about some info about this event being used as a reason to invade Iraq? Why is there such a limited amount of media on this page? Right now, there's four different movies in Google Videos top 100 about this day, and I believe they are all public domain videos. Lets add them! We have video of one plane hitting one tower; lets get video of all three towers falling! There's endless hours of video and audio that would be suitable for the media section. Why is the control of this article in the hands of a few, like Tom Harrison? Was Wikipedia meant to be used as propaganda? I only ask, because that's what it seems like it's being used for. Here's a list of about 100 basic and unanswered questions related to this event. I have only one question... why doesn't this article address any of these questions? Slipgrid 14:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
My guess is it doesn't address them because most of them are unrelated to the events of that day and are thin veneers over attempts to insert dubious information to prop up widely discredited conspiracy theories. That is generally frowned upon here. Rtrev 21:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This image has no source and was removed by OrphanBot: Image:WTC1 on fire.jpg Does anyone know what the source is? I'm thinking it probably is copyrighted, but I haven't figured out the source.
If we can't use that image, I'm trying to find alternatives.
If anyone knows the source of the aerial shots, or the image removed by OrphanBot, it would be helpful. Or has other thoughts on what should be used as the top image? -- Aude ( talk) 19:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Simply pathetic: http://members.iinet.net.au/~holmgren/wikipedia.html Lovelight 14:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
when i called the Zionist terrorist, Begin, a "terrorist" i got warned by Wiki. When i referred to his attacks on the King David Hotel as a "terrorist attack" i got warned. But when Arab Muslims attacked us on 9/11/01, it is perfectly okay to to call a spade a spade.
In September 2006 the Sundance Channel broadcast an hour length documentary, "Dust to Dust: The Health Effects of 9/11." I wish to enter this into the Multimedia reference list. Dogru144 14:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This diff from 11:56, 26 October 2006 removed among other things the section on Responsibility and motives. This revert on 11:57, 26 October 2006 failed to restore it, so I put it back manually. Tom Harrison Talk 18:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Discrepancy: Osama bin Laden is listed as the perpetrator and under the section Responsibility it says: "The United States government determined that al-Qaeda, headed by Osama bin Laden, bore responsibility for the attacks, with the FBI stating that evidence linking Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable." Then why if the evidence is clear and irrefutable don't the FBI list him as wanted for the Sep 11 2001 attacks on their own website at http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm ? Apparently he is NOT wanted by the FBI for this very attack (the evidence didn't exist or hold up after all?) and hence he should not be listed as the perpetrator or responsible. Since the very source that said they had evidence now say they don't, we should replace his name with Unknown or at the very least put a question mark after his name when listed as perpetrator.
Well I think then that the lack of an indictment means that we have to follow wikipedia policyon this. This is a living person and it should list him as the alleged' perpetrator in the attacks. To say that it is irrefutable is misleading since the only reason it's irrefutable is that the evidence hasn't yet been presented. -- Cplot 08:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The first two sentences currently read as follows:
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist[1] suicide attacks upon the United States, predominantly targeting civilians, carried out on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen terrorists[2] affiliated with al-Qaeda[3] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners.
The use of the term 'terrorist' to describe the attacks adds nothing to the article except the opinion of the authors. I think everyone can decide for themselves if flying a number of loaded passenger planes into buildings constitutes terrorism.
Similarly, describing those who carried out the attacks as 'terrorists', weakens the article as it makes a judgement for the reader. The article on Hitler does not start by calling him a bad man, it just notes that he killed 6 million jews and the reader can make up his own mind.
This type of opinionated opening is in clear violation of WP:Neutral point of view and WP:WTA.
I propose an opening two sentences as follows:
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks upon the United States, predominantly targeting civilians, carried out on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen hijackers affiliated with al-Qaeda[3] gained control of four commercial passenger jet airliners.
The fact that the attacks were described as terrorist (for example by the UN) can of course be included but must be referenced and must be clearly listed as opinion and not fact.
Let's fix this because having a bad opening to an article calls the whole thing into question. Curtains99 16:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
As from the very beginning of our friendship, I must say how deeply charmed I am from this lovely terminology we use here. It is simply fabulous to see valid and important questions so closely tied with term conspiracy…But, to stay on target here… Terrorism? What is that? It sure sounds like something which is POV to the core, something which some think tank would be proud of… Well perhaps you heard about that old say, one which states that one nation's terrorist is other nation's freedom fighter? Lovelight 18:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
This page has been receiving very heavy vandalism from anonymous and new users. I feel permenantly semi-protecting it might really help reduce the vandism, but then again, who knows? If anyone has a better solution, let me know. SilentWind 23:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Tom, would you please be so kind and explain why you removed that link from the article? I see that Path to 911 is there as a relevant reference, while we all know controversy behind that piece? In my opinion Loose Change (the most wanted and most watched documentary about 911) should also be referenced, would you folks share your thoughts about these issues…
Lovelight 13:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Part of the motive, which should be included, is the rejection of Western ideals, which the U.S. is the greatest symbol of. It the most powerful nation and is not Muslim. The terrorists object American policies in regards to the Middle East. They despise large influential country that is not run by Muslims or serve Islamic fundamentalist interests. They are radical Islamists who have been indoctrinated and have called for the "death" of America for many years. They blame the troubles of the Arab an Muslim world on the U.S. and West. They do not accept democracy. They hate the Western/American ideas of freedom of speech, press, religion. They hate the liberal attitude, for example, in terms of women, sex, dress, religion, gender roles, divorce, entertainment, and many others. They see the American way of life as highly sinful. They may have also wanted something to get the U.S. into war and wage jihad. -- Shamir1 02:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Shamir1, what you call for including should not be included because it isn't the motive for the attacks. The motives have been expressed clearly for decades. As the article says, "9/11 Commission Report determined that the animosity towards the United States felt by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the "principal architect" of the 9/11 attacks, stemmed "not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel."
And bin Laden has addressed the canard that you are pushing, "... the Mujahideen saw the black gang of thugs in the White House hiding the Truth, and their stupid and foolish leader, who is elected and supported by his people, denying reality and proclaiming that we (the Mujahideen) were striking them because we were jealous of them (the Americans), whereas the reality is that we are striking them because of their evil and injustice in the whole of the Islamic World, especially in Iraq and Palestine and their occupation of the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries." -Osama Bin Laden , February 14 , 2003 Osama Bin Laden Motives for 9/11 Terrorist Attacks
In fact, this is the same motive for the 1993 attack on the World Tradde Center. The motive expressed by terrorists in a letter sent to the New York Times after the 1993 bombing attack of the WTC: "We declare our responsibility for the explosion on the mentioned building. This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel the state of terrorism and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region."
Bin Laden has made the motives crystal clear. He explained it yet again in 2004: "You, the American people, I talk to you today about the best way to avoid another catastrophe and about war, its reasons and its consequences.
And in that regard, I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security.
Contrary to what [President George W.] Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them.
We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.
I wonder about you. Although we are ushering the fourth year after 9/11, Bush is still exercising confusion and misleading you and not telling you the true reason. Therefore, the motivations are still there for what happened to be repeated.
And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.
But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.
During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors.
And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children. "
And Bin Laden makes clear that the US will not be attacked if the US government stops attacking them: "Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked." Bin Laden: 'Your security is in your own hands' Tel555 11:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
1 ) AA flt. # 11 was compromised via their security C/P @ Boston / Logan's Terminal B, contractually operated by Globe Flight Services. UA flt. # 175 was operating from Boston's Terminal C; run by Huntleigh - USA Corp., also by contract. The two flights targeting D.C. were flying from Newark Int'l. ( UA - 93 ) & Wash. - Dulles ( AA - 77 ). Both of their C/P's were contracted by Argenbright Holdings, Ltd. All four C/P's compromised were being operated by Contract Screening Companies that worked for the applicable airlines directly. The ONLY oversight of these operations was Federal, under the FAA. State Airport Authorities then had NO oversight authority over departure C/P operations !
2 ) Since the Airline industry was de - regulated by Pres. Carter, in 1978, the airlines had been permitted to "low - bid" their contracts for security. Following the TWA flt. # 800 incident; the Gore commission recommendations, in 1997, enabled domestic passenger "profile screening" ( At first, by 'manual flagging'; until the first CAPPS software was actualized, in 2000. ) -- Mikemoran576 21:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)The Hart / Rudman Commission on National Security also preceded the 9/11 attacks. Despite all this, 9/11 was STILL successfully executed in 2001 !
3 ) Several years before 9/11; a Cessna airtcraft, flown by a "disturbed" pilot, crashed into the White House. Since this incident, two policies were enacted : 1 ) The USAF permanently detached a flight of F - 16 Fighters to the U.S. Secret Service, to protect the White House from air - attack. 2 ) "Stinger" crews ( Two - man teams carrying Stinger shoulder - fired SAM's. ) were supposed to be permanently deployed to the roofs of the Pentagon, The Capitol & the White House ( This was THEN publicly - announced. ). Where were these teams, on 9/11 ??
4 ) The security screeners @ Boston / Logan were shown an FAA security alert memo 1 week after 9/11, that included a xerox copy of a photograph of a disposable BIC lighter that had been illegally altered w/ a stiletto - style lock - blade. This 'makeshift' weapon was found by the NTSB in the wreckage of UA flt. # 93 in Pa. It was clearly breought on - board by one of the terrorists.
5 ) Airline Security Screeners, pre - 9/11, were "at will" contract employees. Not only were they being paid ~ $1 over minimum - wage ( On average. ) but they had no legal pretections of any kind ! They were considered "overhead" by the airlines; existing primarily "for show", so that the airlines could feign adequate security to their paying passengers. This is NOT just an opinion but, was widely accepted by both the airlines & the FAA. The FAA had a "dual - role" mandate; to promote safety & security of aircraft but, also to promote the airline industry. The ATA was supposed to be responsible for airline promotion ( Commercial & Regional. ) but was also responsible for Screener training programs. Both of these issues were clearly "conflicts of interest" !
Mikemoran576 21:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The tower collapse section, 4.4.1, refers to a CNN timeline (cite number 85), stating the south tower fell at 10:05. The article using the cite says 9:59.
Plus, the number of minutes is not computed correctly, since 9:03 to 9:59 (or 10:05) is not 58 minutes.
Not as major as all the heated discussion here, but a simple pair of fixes to improve overall accuracy.
I leave it to the folks with correct data to confirm the tower collapse time, and to then calc the minutes off that correctly.
CodeCarpenter 16:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
At what point is something a conspiracy theory? Where does Wikipedia draw the line Dictionary.com defines a conspiracy theory as:
A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.
Aren't both sides equally conspiracy theories?
- A conspiracy theory attempts to explain the ultimate cause of an event (usually a political, social, or historical event) as a secret, and often deceptive, plot by a covert alliance of powerful people or organizations rather than as an overt activity or as natural occurrence. Advocates of conspiratorial views claim that most major events in history have been dominated by conspirators who manipulate political happenings from behind the scenes.
It is believed by some that Osama bin Laden claimed responsiblility for the attacks. The attacks on September 11th were certainly a conspiracy. We have been told by some that only someone as powerful as Osama bin Laden could have coordinated such an attack. This is one of the theories advanced for the conspiracy culminating in the events of September 11th. There are other theories that cast doubt on that theory, suggesting that it may have required greater power than even bin Laden's.
I think the word ’Contending theories’ would be a better name for the subsection currently reading ’Conspiracy theories’ That way it wouldn't confuse readers who will likely understand these are all rheories about a conspiracy (whether from the 9/11 commission, FEMA, the FBI or elsewhere. Also, I think the subsection title ’Conspiracy theories’ as it used there violates the NPOV policy.
There is no justification whatever for constantly using the word "kill" and its variants ("killed", "killing") when the precise words are "murdered" and "massacred". The latter words are objective, fair and accurate, although there's nothing wrong with using "kill" for variation and to avoid constantly repeating "murdered" or "massacred." The truly odd thing about descriptions of 9/11 is that the word "killed" is used too much when these words work better by being more exact.
It might be objected that "murdered" and "massacred", while accurate, are unnecessarily emotive, but I can't see how, regarding a subject like this, a few words would introduce emotion -- the emotion is in the subject itself and the emotion inherent in the words only adds drops to that ocean.
So I've changed "killed" and even "fatalities" in a few places to "murdered" and (as a noun), "massacred."
Incidentally, the use of the words "murdered" is absolutely no violation of NPOV. There's nothing subjective about it unless there's an assertion that the deaths occurred accidentally, and no such assertion has been made. Nor does the word itself carry an accusation to anyone in particular.
In general, it's better to be precise with language and better to call something what it is rather than use vaguer, more abstract words when we know the more vivid words are accurate. If nothing else, it helps us think a bit more clearly. Noroton 20:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I was about to add this site ( The Complete 911 Timeline) to the external links, when I noticed the following:
ATTENTION! DO NOT ADD LINKS WITHOUT DISCUSSION AND CONSENSUS ON THE TALK PAGE. OTHERWISE THEY WILL BE REMOVED.
This raises two questions for me?
Getting back to the link; It is a very detailed—and very well documented—timeline of events leading up to the attacks, and is required reading for
Richard Clarke’s class at
Harvard. Based just on its level of confirmable detail (every entry has a link to the original source, all of wich are mainstream), I think a link should be included in this article.
—
MJBurrage •
TALK • 08:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I have noticed that the main Wikipedia page on 9/11 refers to it as "a series of coordinated terrorist[1] suicide attacks on the United States by Islamic radicals". As you all know, there is a very substantial conspiracy theory doubting this simple explanation. Because the article does not have a section on the conspiracy theory, I believe that the listed explanation should be listed as a theory rather than facts. Otherwise it can be extremely misleading. Everyone is entitled to their point of view and beliefs and the article should cater for both sides of the story, the conspiracy theory and the "suicide attacks on the United States by Islamic radicals" theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ron beauchamp ( talk • contribs) at 12:55 on 21 November 2006
I made changes. Please revert only those you don't like and discuss. The part about Jewish conspiracy is described in 9/11 conspiracy theories. And it's just true. No-one ever from 9/11 truth movement supported any of these.(sorry for a rude description of my edit - I wanted to write more but pressed enter accidentally) SalvNaut 21:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Care to discuss about Jewish conspiracy accusation? We already have a case of Steven E. Jones being wrongly accused by ADL of endorsing Jewish conspiracy theory. It was completely untrue - they've took his one sentence and made big halo of it. There are some stupid people who support 9/11 on basis of Jewish conspiracy - you find such pp everywhere. But it is completely unjustified to picture 9/11 conspiracy theory as based on Jews accusations - it is black propaganda, that's all I can say here. SalvNaut 23:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Great job Golbez... what would be your sources for linking 9/11 truth movement with Jewish conspiracy theories? Instead of fixing my grammar mistake you rv everything... No discussion...
SalvNaut 01:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's try again. I insist on the edit proposed by me. Someone would like to explain to me what is the rationale behind including a statement by some organization (ADL) in this small paragraph about 9/11 conspiracy theories? This of course creates a notion in reader's head that 9/11 conspiracy theories are about "same ol' thing", while obviously they are not, and people from 9/11 truth movement have been rejecting this ideas strongly. For example, David Griffin, K. Barret and others are members of MUJCA (Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 911 Truth [9]). Jim Hoffman wrote articles exposing Jewish conspiracy theories within 9/11 movement [10]. S. Jones couple of times rejected ADL's accusations, by saying his words were misinterpreted, response forced by radio host (this case was very ugly, I discussed it on Steven Jones talk page) and that he prefers to stick to science. I'm not an editor who prefers to delete material, I understand that ADL statement might be appropriate to few of the people who believe in 9/11 conspiracy. That's why I proposed this edit, and I stand behind it:
Other option would be not to mention ADL at all, and leave it to the reader to read about it in 9/11 conspiracy theories article (it seems Ok to me, too). The way it is now creates false impression of reality and it's defamation itself. I'll make this proposed edit. Please answer with arguments, if you don't agree. SalvNaut 10:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your understanding and your edit Tom Harrison. Still, I don't see how it is justified to put an opinion by ADL in such a small paragraph about 9/11 CT. What would be sources for that (except ADL of course)? The problem is that 9/11 Truth Movement is not documented well in mainstream media. And from what was documented (Loose Change, article in Times, Popular Mechanics, etc) I see nothing that would justify immediate connection between 9/11 conspiracy theories and conspiracy theories about Jews. Any opinions here? I'm leaning forward complete removal of this remark (all is described in the main article) SalvNaut 17:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW: What is this that ppl revert edits basing it solely on "previous version being stable"? Shouldn't we learn to listen to arguments each time? Newtonian physics was stable for some time, too. Holocaust denial was stable for some time after WWII, and few cared to discuss proofs for it. History is echoing.... SalvNaut 23:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me for barging into others' business, but Golbez and SalvNaut seem to have an edit war. Could you two please discuss before doing this revert war? bibliomaniac 1 5 01:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Due to this edit war, I have locked the page temporarily until whatever the problem may be is taken care of. Please contact me when you wish for unprotection. // Pilotguy ( Cleared to land) 02:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
And they are blocked for violating WP:3RR any ways Jaranda wat's sup 02:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to remove the edit protection to include a link to the September 11 2001 fifth anniversary page?
I just began reviewing this page recently and find some serious abuses of Wikipedia policies. First, the discussion page (from the significant portion I've read) indicates very much dissent from the supposed consensus about the article. I see in the history moments where edits are made and then quickly reverted with the claim that a consensus has been built. Then I look at the discussion history and there's clearly no consensus.
I also do not see much in the history that would justify the extreme measures taken to lock this article down. When compared to other articles there is really not that much vandalism or edit wars at the times when it's unlocked. Sure these disputes happen, but they happen everywhere on other articles and those articles routinely move out of protected status.
Rather here it appears that a few editors have parked themselves on these pages and try to keep others away from editing. I even see evidence of administrators abusing their privileges. For example, there is an edit by JoshuaZ to remove comments from the discussion page that contain no personal attack, but rather expressed the frustration I can see many editors are experiencing with these abuses. Please understand that the Wiki concept can't work this way. It has proven itself elsewhere, but this article is not working as intended. If these administrators want complete control over the content of their web page, I suggest they start a blog.
I was barred for supposed disruption (violation of the 3 revert rule) of this page for making a few edits on a small subsection of the page. I discussed those edits prior to making them here, though the reverting editors simply reverted them without any comment on this discussion page (again citing the "stability" of the article). Keep in mind that the sole purpose of Wikipedia is not to stabilize articles. This has to be balanced against other policies and guidelines. The edits I tried to make did nothing to changes the facts presented. Rather I was simply removing words and phrases that were pejorative, unencyclopedic and in violation of the NPOV policy. Those reverting my edits cited nothing to support their reverts, but rather again used pejoratives to back up the use of pejoratives. Though I have been blocked (even from appealing my blockage), I thought I'd begin some discussion here about what appear to me to be inappropriate behaviour by admins and a wish to treat this article as not part of a Wiki. I'm not sure what can be done about this behaviour. It's similar to the pegasus affair where an editor sought administrative status simply to exercise arbitrary power over other editors. However, my hope is that we can find some impartial admin who will somehow facilitate making this article into a part of the Wiki community. -- 67.175.134.6 04:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC) (blocked cplot)
From examining the history here, it appears that a small group of people have worked to ensure this article reflects only a certain POV. Legitimate edits are immediately and repeatedly reverted. Pejorative language is used to describe alternate POVs or more frequently alternate POVs are simply removed from the article.
Much of the article reads like an ABC docudrama and is unencyclopedic. It fails to cite sources or to present particular positions as such, but instead describes theories, accusations and allegations as if they are facts established by God. The article also fails to provide verifiable sources for many of the claims made in the article.
THe POV slant of the article combined with the failure to provide verifiable sources combine to make this article one of the worst cases of NPOV violation I have encountered on Wikipedia. I would recommend the editors and administrators squatting on this article begin to work with the dissenting editors to improve this article and make it meet Wikipedia's standards: especially those of NPOV and Verifiability..
I will try to elaborate on the issues through an examination of the article's history, but as I look through the discussion page and the article's history there are repeated examples of squashing alternate views from this article. Often time these alternate POVs are cited, verifiable and often widely held POVs, yet are excluded nonetheless..-- Cplot 17:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Tbeatty, there is clearly no consensus yet on the NPOV. How could their be there's only been minutes since the tag was placed on the article. It would normally take 10 days or so to make such a determination. In the case of this article I would imagine it will take much longer since so many dissenting editors have been chased away by a poorly behaving core group of editors. -- Cplot 18:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I have looked at the talk page archives and the history of the edits. And I find the NPOV violations even more disgraceful. It's now time for the editors here to take seriously these alternate POVs (without pejorative dismissals, which is mostly what I see in the archives). Some waiting time must be given to an NPOV dispute to let these issues and grievances be aired. This is how a Wiki is supposed to work. Again, if you don't wish to write an article that reflects all the relevant points-of-view then I suggest you start a blog. -- Cplot 18:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is hijacked. Of course there is NPOV dispute but a group of editors decide there is not. I think we are heading towards RfC here... SalvNaut 18:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem comes from trying to put the dissenting opinions (i.e. conspiracy theories) on an equal footing as the version supported by evidence. By and large, the conspiracy theory version are rejected entirely in agreement with Wikipedia policy. Typically they contain errors of fact, misunderstandings of the mechanics of solids, and/or unreliable evidence.
Now, there certainly is a particular zeal in removing unencyclopedic material, and occasionally it may be to excess, and in those rare instances where legitimate points are raised, the edits may be rejected without sufficient discussion. But that problem is manageable. Unfortunately, many people in the US are so frightened by the idea that their government was unable to stop terrorists that they find comfort in believing anything else, no matter how implausible. There is an whole folk mythology, not to mention an industry of disinformation, which challenges the conventional account, and there are editors who, innocently or maliciously, try to give the the mythology undue credibility. (It escapes me why someone who sees a discrepancy between an encyclopedia and rantings on a partisan website would immediately assume it's the encyclopedia which is wrong.)
But this is not truly a good-faith dispute regarding point of view. The issue is not what emotions people have or what narratives human creativity can fabricate, it's what the evidence supports. The conspiracy theory stories are, at least so far, not supported by evidence. Peter Grey 20:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Too much of this discussion is in the form of vague generalities and trying to describe the truth. The discussion should be around what are the various theories (including the only represented theory right now) about what are the political, economic, cultural and physical processes that influenced and were influenced by these attacks. It's not relevant whether one editor or another thinks that someone's research into this is bunk. The point is we have to describe those sources views nevertheless. More importantly, the article as it currently stands represents the views of certain sources as the truth rather than citing that view in accordance with wikipedia's NPOV policy. Clearly there's a difference of opinion here with no clear consensus. What we need to do next is work together to figure out what's needed to fix this very broken article and build a consensus rather than just insisting one's already there.
Again, we're not trying to decide who is crazy, wrong, misguided, stupid, or naive. Were trying to write an encyclopedia article that describes the subject and attributes various viewpoints to the authors who hold those viewpoints: whether that's NIST, FBI or whomever). Right now the article fails to do that on many accounts. Clearly I think we could get agreement on certain facts that none of us would dispute. Beyond that, we have to start attributing positions to who's making them and not just state them in the NPOV violating way as if its just an undisputed fact. I don't see any reason why we can't at least come to that agreement here.
Finally, I ask those who keep removing the NPOV template to stop doing that. Give it a little time for the discussion to take place and a real genuine concensus to be reached. A NPOV template is not meant as an insult, it's merely suggest that some editors may be unaware of other significant views on a topic. -- 68.30.31.232 04:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to point out that the consparcy theories have a large following here are some google results: 9/11 Pentagon missle strike gets 702,000 results, 9/11 controlled demolition gets 620,000 results, and 9/11 government involvement gets 1,110,000 results. Also Popular Mechanics tried to disprove these, showing that they do have some sort of mainstream following.-- Acebrock 17:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Pleas... if you use Google, do it correctly. "angels are real" 10,900 (angels are real, by the way), "Elvis lives" 197,000 results,. SalvNaut 19:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I'd also like to point out that a full third of americans believe that te terrorists had something to do with 9/11-- Acebrock 18:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
There's quite a few disputes going on here, so I've full protected the page. Perhaps a nice short outline of what specifics we have would be nice? One of the concerns I've seen is that of NPOV, so perhaps specific paragraphs could be listed below neatly? Thank you. Cowman109 Talk 05:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
sourced with: ^ "Latest on the attacks on America, 7:00 PM", CBS News, September 11, 2001.
Oh, and of course... many peple said on tv that someone blew the buildings up. Here you go (from Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center#Brief_History):
Then, an hour later, we had that big explosion, from much much lower. I don't know what on earth caused that
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there were actually devices that were planted within the building.
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This was clearly -- the way the structure is collapsing -- this was the result of something that was planned.
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sourced with: ^ "Latest on the attacks on America, 7:00 PM", CBS News, September 11, 2001.
Mongo, stay on topic. SalvNaut is clearly trying to fix these serious NPOV problems. You cannot simply say "well the article reflects my POV so I've asnwered you". One suggestion would be to restate this as: "CBS News reported that on the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.' This way it makes it clear and verifiable. A reader can verify that CBS reported this. A reader cannot veify that US intelligence agencies interecepted communications. -- 70.8.139.192 21:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Mongo wrote: "First off...get a username...secondly," Mongo do you have no regard at all for what Wikpedia is trying to accomplish. Everywhere throughout Wikipedia there are users who take NPOV seriously; who take verifiability serioiusly; who take no original researcy seriously, unlke you. And many of those who make valuable contributions to Wikpedia do so annonymously: another tenant of wikis. Again, if you don't like the idea behiind wikipedia, then don't participate. But please don't come in here and insist Wikipedia be like Fox News or the New York Times. Just go participate in those insitutions if that's what you're looking for.
Secondly, Osama bin Laden is a living person and so we must be careful to adhere to Wikpedia's policies on that. There has not been any indictment of Osama bin Laden on this: let alone a conviction. Most of the evidence that I presume exists has never been aired in a court of law. Now I believe Osama bin Laden had something to do with these attacks, but that doesn't let me (or anyone else) run rough shot over over Wikpedia policies and guidelines. We're here to write and encyclopedia: a wiki encyclopedia. Join in that process or just recuse yourself. Looking through these dicussion archives I find a lot of evidence that you're here to disrupt and not contribute.
Now that it's clear that there is not a concesnsus among editors, it's time for us to figure out a way to make this artricle meet Wikipedia's standards. There are so many problems in this article it's going to take a log of work. Your attempts to shout down every editor you don't agree with only makes it that much more cumbersome to fix the article. -- 68.30.46.228 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
What I've found so far is this report about communication intercepted betwen Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September [14]. So... who knows what CBS report was about (foreknowledge?). Maybe it's not a good idea to use CBS report from the day of attack as a source? SalvNaut 21:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
editprotected}} -- done SalvNaut 21:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC) On the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.[37]
Please remove this unverifed statement per arguments above. We are not here to repeat everything what media says. This sentence should be at least clarified with "On the day of attacks CBS reported that...." but even then, I see no reason to include it. There were numerous false statements in the media on that day. Or it could be sourced much much better to explain who, when, who intercepted, etc. I've only found info about Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September. SalvNaut 22:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A new source has been presented - very good. The problem is that there is not a word in this source about Osama bin Ladin. Only about "interception of telephone conversations between jubilant terrorist supporters" and from the article it can be read that those were other terrorist cells. Please, stay strict and sharp minded, and if you want to have it here rephrase it appropriately (to whoever made the edit). Replacing "Osama" with "members of Al-Qaeda" or something similiar. Don't you think it's stupid that the article, at its present form, states that Osama called hijackers on the day of attacks, while even FBI admits that they do not have enough proof to pursue Osama for 9/11? SalvNaut 00:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
First, from looking at the history, I think many of the vandalism problems were simply caused by a failure of editors to compromise and strive to meet Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. So I think one of the advantages of working out a true consensus here so that we can unlock the article and have it join the greater Wikipedia community.
Second, as has already been mentioned scientific surveys indicate the official story is only one piece of the description this encyclopedia article should address. Dismissive arguments suggesting the public is just stupid or misguided or mentally defective are not relevant here (unless you want to cite someone who makes these arguments; again no original research here). Here's a list of sources discussing the waning confidence of the worlds population in the official story.
Keep in mind that the last piece showing the views of New Yorker residents reflects community with quite a significant proportion of eyewitnesses to the attacks and also a high proportion of people directly effected by the attacks.
Third, one aspect of the NPOV problem with the page is that (as mentioned above) it fails to describe the posiitions of the advocates of one particular theory as just that: advocates of one particular theory. So, for example, the article says:
intead of saying:
The first example reads like a novel, The second reads like an encylopedia article. This is only an example and I'm not weded to this wording. However the entire article is filled with these NPOV problems.Fixing passages in this way will also facilitate including other cited views of the attacks (as well as cited crticisms of those views).
Fourth, I'm including a list of sources that support what many of the dissenting editors — a majority by my count of recent discussions and edits — believe should be included in the article. These sources all meet Wikipedia's guidelines for verifiability and reliability. There may be counter arguments that also criticize these pieces, but those counter-arguments need to be cited in verifiable publications and not simply crafted as original research here on the discussion page. The David Ray Griffin books are largely secondary sources so make ideal sources to cite here on Wikipedia.
Fifth, the use of the term "conpsiracy theory" is simply perjorative when used to characterize the positions taken in these books. They know more theorize a conspiracy than the views of the official account (theorizing that 19 hijackers under the umbrella of a poowerful worldwide organization know as al-Quada coordinated the attacks). So using pejoratively is inappopriate in the article and here in the discussions. Using it to describe only some of the theories of the conspiracy (in the non-pejorative sense) is confusing and misleading for readers.
So with the scientific surveys, the preponderance of verifiable sources and what looks like a significant number of wikipedia editors seeking to fix these NPOV problems, we need to get serious about that discussion. This means we have to stop arguing about whose wrong, false, stupid, misguided, mentally deranged, etc. We need to focus on crafting a discussion here that shows the genuine disagreements by the various parties weighing in on this tragedy. As the NPOV policy states:
Neutrality here at Wikipedia is all about presenting competing versions of what the facts are. It doesn't matter at all how convinced we are that our facts are the facts. If a significant number of other interested parties really do disagree with us, no matter how wrong we think they are, the neutrality policy dictates that the discussion be recast as a fair presentation of the dispute between the parties. (highlighed portions to underscore the misunderstaniding about NPOV represented in the discussion thus far)
Perhaps we could start another sandbox article here on this page (or a linked page) to begin to fix the problems. Then when we reach a genuine consensus we can move that article to the main article. In the meantime we can work on the most egregious violations of NPOV and make the article read like an encyclopedia article rather than an historical novel (it is some nice prose however, I don't want to mess that up).
Verifiable sources that represent a significant view excluded from the article:
-- Cplot 03:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarbro writes:
one of the POVs must be factually incorrect, but we can't agree which one that is. If you let both POVs have equal footing, then the article becomes POV. The article needs to be NPOV
This again restates a misconception about NPOV I see here again and again. There are conflicting views on these attacks as with any historical event. We, as the edtiors of this encylopedia article, are not supposed to determine which one is correct. By doing that we make it reflect our own judgment and insert our own POV. The Wikipedia NPOV policy requires that we include the significant POVs. I think we would be hard pressed to determine which view was more widely held, let alone which one was correct. We would have to have information nonoe of us could possibly have to make an irrefutable judgement over which one was correct. So I encourage all the editors here to read the Wikipdia policies. In some ways it's liberating that we do not have to figure out who's correct. -- Cplot 20:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Peter Grey, again look at the NPOV policy. Certainly we want to limit the historical facts, and "opinions or speculation" presented here to credible and verifiable sources. All of the sources I listed above fit that criteria. Their views are not reflected in this article at all. Verifiable sources and no original resarch are also important parts of Wikipedia policy. However, as with any historical facts, there are always multipel views, interpretations, weight and opinions about those facts. Currently the article does not reflect that. Instead it one-sidely treats certain historians and leaves completely out of account the others. That's precisely what a NPOV violation does. It would be good if an admin could go ahead and add the template back to the article so that other editors will be alerted to our need to fix this article. -- Cplot 17:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Peter,Regebro, others. Let's take one of things that strike me, that is complete lack of information about suspected foreknwoledge about the attacks. Please, just take a brief look on those two lists from 9/11 Timeline. [15] [16]. Those are ALL media reports about foreknwoledge, insider training (among others confirmed by a professor of finance at the UI). Recently Bob Woodward's book has been published in which he outlines the fact that so many warnings about 9/11 were ignored by Bush administration. Ok, so we have those media reports, books, other important people criticising. And where on Wikipedia can we read about it and it's implications? Only in 9/11 conspiracy theories article. So,... tell me... can't you see a bias here? It similiar with other topics like failure to investigate the events of 9/11 properly - those all facts we read here about, we can't be sure if they are 100%true, if they're everything we should know. Renaming the other article "9/11 contending theories" or 9/11 inconsistencies might be considered a solution... but then, it would have to be really cleaned up to represent real contending theories, not everything at once (including pure anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, which until recently was so boldly underlined here). This article needs major rewriting - not only this would be a whole lot of work but some editors were very opposing in the past to any changes made here. I, for example, don't feel qualified enough and don't have enough time to propose major rewrite. I suppose that others who might have had this in mind, were successfully repelled from here. SalvNaut 20:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
A recent article in the London Times (January 23, 2009) states that Jérôme Kerviel, Société Générale rogue was quoted as saying:
“The best trading day in the history of Société Générale was September 11, 2001,” he said. “At least, that’s what one of my managers told me. It seems that profits were colossal that day.“I had a similar experience during the London attacks in July 2005.”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5568518.ece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.212.49 ( talk) 04:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
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Don t know where to put it, but beautiful hint to 9-11:
"Dean had a sweater wrapped around his ears to keep warm. He said we were a band of Arabs coming in to blow up New York." (page 112 - Penguin Edition. For all others: At the end of the second chapter in Part Two of the book.) 88.73.57.205 16:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Invoking a comparison of the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 to those associated with Pearl Harbor is very misleading, as the latter has much less general evidence and support for its claims. It should be removed to keep an NPOV. Sloverlord 01:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
have u compared your country to canada... we have civil rights you cant even fathom, 1984 bullshit does not exist here, we dont have massive federal agencies observing our every move,we have REAL equality, the right to travel to cuba, not to mention the fact that we dont get slammed as anti- canadian for disagreeing with the prime minister...you guys wasted your money on an army that cant even get its job done in iraq, and now your up to your eyeballs in debt
i suggest you learn a bit more about canada, a very similar, much more liberal version of youre own great country, albeit much smaller
I wondered why the information available at the below link has not been mentioned on this page. The people on the list include highly respected members of the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, USA Army Generals, ex-CIA employees (and many others) who all openly, publically and vehemently voice their belief that the official 9/11 story is deeply flawed (to say the least). If these people's beliefs don't count as anything towards the 9/11 conspiracy theories, then what on earth does count?
Senior Military, Intelligence, and Government Critics of 9/11 Commission Report
Many well known and respected senior U.S. military officers, intelligence services veterans, and government officials have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report. Several even allege government complicity in the terrible acts of 9/11. This web site is a collection of their public statements. It should be made clear that none of these individuals are affiliated with this web site.
Listed at the below link are highly critical statements about the 9/11 Commission Report and/or calls for a new 9/11 investigation publicly made by over 50 of these senior officials. Their collective voices give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed. These individuals cannot be simply dismissed as irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their sincere concern, backed by their decades of service to their country, demonstrate that criticism of the Report is not irresponsible, illogical, nor disloyal, per se. In fact, it can be just the opposite.
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
Stop deleting the information! edit it, don't delete it!
Proposed change:
-- PTR 19:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
What happened to the word "alleged"? The fact is that there was no criminal investigation that proved what happened on 9/11, therefore the government's story is only one conspiracy theory out of about two, which are: (a) 19 Arab terrorists with box cutters did it, and (b) The US government did it. I have no problem with people picking one theory over another, but I do have a problem with unproven theories being stated as if they are proven facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.101.191 ( talk • contribs)
why don't you google USS Liberty and see what your govt (LBJ) said when the unmarked Israeli jets were attacking the ship. He said he wanted the ship at the bottom of the Mediterranean. Happy to napalm and kill his own on the most decorated warship in the fleet. Does the President in that case represent the US Govt? Observer 25 October 2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his Body of Secrets thus: "Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."
This section begins "Within hours of the attack". Surely someone was aware that the planes had been hijacked before they crashed. Was this really the first government response? Kernow 16:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes it was, Rumsfeld also gave a stand down order, NORAD stood down.
I think it is highly unfair that the other side of 9/11 is not being shown here, many firefighters, police and Americans no longer believe the official report.
And to be honest to look at ALL the evidence on ALL sides, to say it is 100% concrete is denial.
Something evil happened on 9/11, but I believe we dont yet know who or why it was carried out
There's not a NPOV; only the governments POV. The Responsibility and Motives section only gives the governments POV, with no evidence. How is a "1998 fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden" related, and where's the evidence that shows it relates? If this is the "day that changed everything," then why are the only Long-term effects the Economic aftermath and Potential health effects? How about a section about the perpetual war? How about some info about this event being used as a reason to invade Iraq? Why is there such a limited amount of media on this page? Right now, there's four different movies in Google Videos top 100 about this day, and I believe they are all public domain videos. Lets add them! We have video of one plane hitting one tower; lets get video of all three towers falling! There's endless hours of video and audio that would be suitable for the media section. Why is the control of this article in the hands of a few, like Tom Harrison? Was Wikipedia meant to be used as propaganda? I only ask, because that's what it seems like it's being used for. Here's a list of about 100 basic and unanswered questions related to this event. I have only one question... why doesn't this article address any of these questions? Slipgrid 14:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
My guess is it doesn't address them because most of them are unrelated to the events of that day and are thin veneers over attempts to insert dubious information to prop up widely discredited conspiracy theories. That is generally frowned upon here. Rtrev 21:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This image has no source and was removed by OrphanBot: Image:WTC1 on fire.jpg Does anyone know what the source is? I'm thinking it probably is copyrighted, but I haven't figured out the source.
If we can't use that image, I'm trying to find alternatives.
If anyone knows the source of the aerial shots, or the image removed by OrphanBot, it would be helpful. Or has other thoughts on what should be used as the top image? -- Aude ( talk) 19:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Simply pathetic: http://members.iinet.net.au/~holmgren/wikipedia.html Lovelight 14:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
when i called the Zionist terrorist, Begin, a "terrorist" i got warned by Wiki. When i referred to his attacks on the King David Hotel as a "terrorist attack" i got warned. But when Arab Muslims attacked us on 9/11/01, it is perfectly okay to to call a spade a spade.
In September 2006 the Sundance Channel broadcast an hour length documentary, "Dust to Dust: The Health Effects of 9/11." I wish to enter this into the Multimedia reference list. Dogru144 14:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This diff from 11:56, 26 October 2006 removed among other things the section on Responsibility and motives. This revert on 11:57, 26 October 2006 failed to restore it, so I put it back manually. Tom Harrison Talk 18:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Discrepancy: Osama bin Laden is listed as the perpetrator and under the section Responsibility it says: "The United States government determined that al-Qaeda, headed by Osama bin Laden, bore responsibility for the attacks, with the FBI stating that evidence linking Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable." Then why if the evidence is clear and irrefutable don't the FBI list him as wanted for the Sep 11 2001 attacks on their own website at http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm ? Apparently he is NOT wanted by the FBI for this very attack (the evidence didn't exist or hold up after all?) and hence he should not be listed as the perpetrator or responsible. Since the very source that said they had evidence now say they don't, we should replace his name with Unknown or at the very least put a question mark after his name when listed as perpetrator.
Well I think then that the lack of an indictment means that we have to follow wikipedia policyon this. This is a living person and it should list him as the alleged' perpetrator in the attacks. To say that it is irrefutable is misleading since the only reason it's irrefutable is that the evidence hasn't yet been presented. -- Cplot 08:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The first two sentences currently read as follows:
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated terrorist[1] suicide attacks upon the United States, predominantly targeting civilians, carried out on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen terrorists[2] affiliated with al-Qaeda[3] hijacked four commercial passenger jet airliners.
The use of the term 'terrorist' to describe the attacks adds nothing to the article except the opinion of the authors. I think everyone can decide for themselves if flying a number of loaded passenger planes into buildings constitutes terrorism.
Similarly, describing those who carried out the attacks as 'terrorists', weakens the article as it makes a judgement for the reader. The article on Hitler does not start by calling him a bad man, it just notes that he killed 6 million jews and the reader can make up his own mind.
This type of opinionated opening is in clear violation of WP:Neutral point of view and WP:WTA.
I propose an opening two sentences as follows:
The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11—pronounced "nine eleven") consisted of a series of coordinated suicide attacks upon the United States, predominantly targeting civilians, carried out on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. On the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen hijackers affiliated with al-Qaeda[3] gained control of four commercial passenger jet airliners.
The fact that the attacks were described as terrorist (for example by the UN) can of course be included but must be referenced and must be clearly listed as opinion and not fact.
Let's fix this because having a bad opening to an article calls the whole thing into question. Curtains99 16:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
As from the very beginning of our friendship, I must say how deeply charmed I am from this lovely terminology we use here. It is simply fabulous to see valid and important questions so closely tied with term conspiracy…But, to stay on target here… Terrorism? What is that? It sure sounds like something which is POV to the core, something which some think tank would be proud of… Well perhaps you heard about that old say, one which states that one nation's terrorist is other nation's freedom fighter? Lovelight 18:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
This page has been receiving very heavy vandalism from anonymous and new users. I feel permenantly semi-protecting it might really help reduce the vandism, but then again, who knows? If anyone has a better solution, let me know. SilentWind 23:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Tom, would you please be so kind and explain why you removed that link from the article? I see that Path to 911 is there as a relevant reference, while we all know controversy behind that piece? In my opinion Loose Change (the most wanted and most watched documentary about 911) should also be referenced, would you folks share your thoughts about these issues…
Lovelight 13:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Part of the motive, which should be included, is the rejection of Western ideals, which the U.S. is the greatest symbol of. It the most powerful nation and is not Muslim. The terrorists object American policies in regards to the Middle East. They despise large influential country that is not run by Muslims or serve Islamic fundamentalist interests. They are radical Islamists who have been indoctrinated and have called for the "death" of America for many years. They blame the troubles of the Arab an Muslim world on the U.S. and West. They do not accept democracy. They hate the Western/American ideas of freedom of speech, press, religion. They hate the liberal attitude, for example, in terms of women, sex, dress, religion, gender roles, divorce, entertainment, and many others. They see the American way of life as highly sinful. They may have also wanted something to get the U.S. into war and wage jihad. -- Shamir1 02:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Shamir1, what you call for including should not be included because it isn't the motive for the attacks. The motives have been expressed clearly for decades. As the article says, "9/11 Commission Report determined that the animosity towards the United States felt by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the "principal architect" of the 9/11 attacks, stemmed "not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel."
And bin Laden has addressed the canard that you are pushing, "... the Mujahideen saw the black gang of thugs in the White House hiding the Truth, and their stupid and foolish leader, who is elected and supported by his people, denying reality and proclaiming that we (the Mujahideen) were striking them because we were jealous of them (the Americans), whereas the reality is that we are striking them because of their evil and injustice in the whole of the Islamic World, especially in Iraq and Palestine and their occupation of the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries." -Osama Bin Laden , February 14 , 2003 Osama Bin Laden Motives for 9/11 Terrorist Attacks
In fact, this is the same motive for the 1993 attack on the World Tradde Center. The motive expressed by terrorists in a letter sent to the New York Times after the 1993 bombing attack of the WTC: "We declare our responsibility for the explosion on the mentioned building. This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel the state of terrorism and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region."
Bin Laden has made the motives crystal clear. He explained it yet again in 2004: "You, the American people, I talk to you today about the best way to avoid another catastrophe and about war, its reasons and its consequences.
And in that regard, I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security.
Contrary to what [President George W.] Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them.
We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.
I wonder about you. Although we are ushering the fourth year after 9/11, Bush is still exercising confusion and misleading you and not telling you the true reason. Therefore, the motivations are still there for what happened to be repeated.
And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.
But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.
During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors.
And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children. "
And Bin Laden makes clear that the US will not be attacked if the US government stops attacking them: "Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked." Bin Laden: 'Your security is in your own hands' Tel555 11:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
1 ) AA flt. # 11 was compromised via their security C/P @ Boston / Logan's Terminal B, contractually operated by Globe Flight Services. UA flt. # 175 was operating from Boston's Terminal C; run by Huntleigh - USA Corp., also by contract. The two flights targeting D.C. were flying from Newark Int'l. ( UA - 93 ) & Wash. - Dulles ( AA - 77 ). Both of their C/P's were contracted by Argenbright Holdings, Ltd. All four C/P's compromised were being operated by Contract Screening Companies that worked for the applicable airlines directly. The ONLY oversight of these operations was Federal, under the FAA. State Airport Authorities then had NO oversight authority over departure C/P operations !
2 ) Since the Airline industry was de - regulated by Pres. Carter, in 1978, the airlines had been permitted to "low - bid" their contracts for security. Following the TWA flt. # 800 incident; the Gore commission recommendations, in 1997, enabled domestic passenger "profile screening" ( At first, by 'manual flagging'; until the first CAPPS software was actualized, in 2000. ) -- Mikemoran576 21:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)The Hart / Rudman Commission on National Security also preceded the 9/11 attacks. Despite all this, 9/11 was STILL successfully executed in 2001 !
3 ) Several years before 9/11; a Cessna airtcraft, flown by a "disturbed" pilot, crashed into the White House. Since this incident, two policies were enacted : 1 ) The USAF permanently detached a flight of F - 16 Fighters to the U.S. Secret Service, to protect the White House from air - attack. 2 ) "Stinger" crews ( Two - man teams carrying Stinger shoulder - fired SAM's. ) were supposed to be permanently deployed to the roofs of the Pentagon, The Capitol & the White House ( This was THEN publicly - announced. ). Where were these teams, on 9/11 ??
4 ) The security screeners @ Boston / Logan were shown an FAA security alert memo 1 week after 9/11, that included a xerox copy of a photograph of a disposable BIC lighter that had been illegally altered w/ a stiletto - style lock - blade. This 'makeshift' weapon was found by the NTSB in the wreckage of UA flt. # 93 in Pa. It was clearly breought on - board by one of the terrorists.
5 ) Airline Security Screeners, pre - 9/11, were "at will" contract employees. Not only were they being paid ~ $1 over minimum - wage ( On average. ) but they had no legal pretections of any kind ! They were considered "overhead" by the airlines; existing primarily "for show", so that the airlines could feign adequate security to their paying passengers. This is NOT just an opinion but, was widely accepted by both the airlines & the FAA. The FAA had a "dual - role" mandate; to promote safety & security of aircraft but, also to promote the airline industry. The ATA was supposed to be responsible for airline promotion ( Commercial & Regional. ) but was also responsible for Screener training programs. Both of these issues were clearly "conflicts of interest" !
Mikemoran576 21:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The tower collapse section, 4.4.1, refers to a CNN timeline (cite number 85), stating the south tower fell at 10:05. The article using the cite says 9:59.
Plus, the number of minutes is not computed correctly, since 9:03 to 9:59 (or 10:05) is not 58 minutes.
Not as major as all the heated discussion here, but a simple pair of fixes to improve overall accuracy.
I leave it to the folks with correct data to confirm the tower collapse time, and to then calc the minutes off that correctly.
CodeCarpenter 16:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
At what point is something a conspiracy theory? Where does Wikipedia draw the line Dictionary.com defines a conspiracy theory as:
A theory seeking to explain a disputed case or matter as a plot by a secret group or alliance rather than an individual or isolated act.
Aren't both sides equally conspiracy theories?
- A conspiracy theory attempts to explain the ultimate cause of an event (usually a political, social, or historical event) as a secret, and often deceptive, plot by a covert alliance of powerful people or organizations rather than as an overt activity or as natural occurrence. Advocates of conspiratorial views claim that most major events in history have been dominated by conspirators who manipulate political happenings from behind the scenes.
It is believed by some that Osama bin Laden claimed responsiblility for the attacks. The attacks on September 11th were certainly a conspiracy. We have been told by some that only someone as powerful as Osama bin Laden could have coordinated such an attack. This is one of the theories advanced for the conspiracy culminating in the events of September 11th. There are other theories that cast doubt on that theory, suggesting that it may have required greater power than even bin Laden's.
I think the word ’Contending theories’ would be a better name for the subsection currently reading ’Conspiracy theories’ That way it wouldn't confuse readers who will likely understand these are all rheories about a conspiracy (whether from the 9/11 commission, FEMA, the FBI or elsewhere. Also, I think the subsection title ’Conspiracy theories’ as it used there violates the NPOV policy.
There is no justification whatever for constantly using the word "kill" and its variants ("killed", "killing") when the precise words are "murdered" and "massacred". The latter words are objective, fair and accurate, although there's nothing wrong with using "kill" for variation and to avoid constantly repeating "murdered" or "massacred." The truly odd thing about descriptions of 9/11 is that the word "killed" is used too much when these words work better by being more exact.
It might be objected that "murdered" and "massacred", while accurate, are unnecessarily emotive, but I can't see how, regarding a subject like this, a few words would introduce emotion -- the emotion is in the subject itself and the emotion inherent in the words only adds drops to that ocean.
So I've changed "killed" and even "fatalities" in a few places to "murdered" and (as a noun), "massacred."
Incidentally, the use of the words "murdered" is absolutely no violation of NPOV. There's nothing subjective about it unless there's an assertion that the deaths occurred accidentally, and no such assertion has been made. Nor does the word itself carry an accusation to anyone in particular.
In general, it's better to be precise with language and better to call something what it is rather than use vaguer, more abstract words when we know the more vivid words are accurate. If nothing else, it helps us think a bit more clearly. Noroton 20:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I was about to add this site ( The Complete 911 Timeline) to the external links, when I noticed the following:
ATTENTION! DO NOT ADD LINKS WITHOUT DISCUSSION AND CONSENSUS ON THE TALK PAGE. OTHERWISE THEY WILL BE REMOVED.
This raises two questions for me?
Getting back to the link; It is a very detailed—and very well documented—timeline of events leading up to the attacks, and is required reading for
Richard Clarke’s class at
Harvard. Based just on its level of confirmable detail (every entry has a link to the original source, all of wich are mainstream), I think a link should be included in this article.
—
MJBurrage •
TALK • 08:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I have noticed that the main Wikipedia page on 9/11 refers to it as "a series of coordinated terrorist[1] suicide attacks on the United States by Islamic radicals". As you all know, there is a very substantial conspiracy theory doubting this simple explanation. Because the article does not have a section on the conspiracy theory, I believe that the listed explanation should be listed as a theory rather than facts. Otherwise it can be extremely misleading. Everyone is entitled to their point of view and beliefs and the article should cater for both sides of the story, the conspiracy theory and the "suicide attacks on the United States by Islamic radicals" theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ron beauchamp ( talk • contribs) at 12:55 on 21 November 2006
I made changes. Please revert only those you don't like and discuss. The part about Jewish conspiracy is described in 9/11 conspiracy theories. And it's just true. No-one ever from 9/11 truth movement supported any of these.(sorry for a rude description of my edit - I wanted to write more but pressed enter accidentally) SalvNaut 21:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Care to discuss about Jewish conspiracy accusation? We already have a case of Steven E. Jones being wrongly accused by ADL of endorsing Jewish conspiracy theory. It was completely untrue - they've took his one sentence and made big halo of it. There are some stupid people who support 9/11 on basis of Jewish conspiracy - you find such pp everywhere. But it is completely unjustified to picture 9/11 conspiracy theory as based on Jews accusations - it is black propaganda, that's all I can say here. SalvNaut 23:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Great job Golbez... what would be your sources for linking 9/11 truth movement with Jewish conspiracy theories? Instead of fixing my grammar mistake you rv everything... No discussion...
SalvNaut 01:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's try again. I insist on the edit proposed by me. Someone would like to explain to me what is the rationale behind including a statement by some organization (ADL) in this small paragraph about 9/11 conspiracy theories? This of course creates a notion in reader's head that 9/11 conspiracy theories are about "same ol' thing", while obviously they are not, and people from 9/11 truth movement have been rejecting this ideas strongly. For example, David Griffin, K. Barret and others are members of MUJCA (Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 911 Truth [9]). Jim Hoffman wrote articles exposing Jewish conspiracy theories within 9/11 movement [10]. S. Jones couple of times rejected ADL's accusations, by saying his words were misinterpreted, response forced by radio host (this case was very ugly, I discussed it on Steven Jones talk page) and that he prefers to stick to science. I'm not an editor who prefers to delete material, I understand that ADL statement might be appropriate to few of the people who believe in 9/11 conspiracy. That's why I proposed this edit, and I stand behind it:
Other option would be not to mention ADL at all, and leave it to the reader to read about it in 9/11 conspiracy theories article (it seems Ok to me, too). The way it is now creates false impression of reality and it's defamation itself. I'll make this proposed edit. Please answer with arguments, if you don't agree. SalvNaut 10:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your understanding and your edit Tom Harrison. Still, I don't see how it is justified to put an opinion by ADL in such a small paragraph about 9/11 CT. What would be sources for that (except ADL of course)? The problem is that 9/11 Truth Movement is not documented well in mainstream media. And from what was documented (Loose Change, article in Times, Popular Mechanics, etc) I see nothing that would justify immediate connection between 9/11 conspiracy theories and conspiracy theories about Jews. Any opinions here? I'm leaning forward complete removal of this remark (all is described in the main article) SalvNaut 17:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW: What is this that ppl revert edits basing it solely on "previous version being stable"? Shouldn't we learn to listen to arguments each time? Newtonian physics was stable for some time, too. Holocaust denial was stable for some time after WWII, and few cared to discuss proofs for it. History is echoing.... SalvNaut 23:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me for barging into others' business, but Golbez and SalvNaut seem to have an edit war. Could you two please discuss before doing this revert war? bibliomaniac 1 5 01:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Due to this edit war, I have locked the page temporarily until whatever the problem may be is taken care of. Please contact me when you wish for unprotection. // Pilotguy ( Cleared to land) 02:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
And they are blocked for violating WP:3RR any ways Jaranda wat's sup 02:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to remove the edit protection to include a link to the September 11 2001 fifth anniversary page?
I just began reviewing this page recently and find some serious abuses of Wikipedia policies. First, the discussion page (from the significant portion I've read) indicates very much dissent from the supposed consensus about the article. I see in the history moments where edits are made and then quickly reverted with the claim that a consensus has been built. Then I look at the discussion history and there's clearly no consensus.
I also do not see much in the history that would justify the extreme measures taken to lock this article down. When compared to other articles there is really not that much vandalism or edit wars at the times when it's unlocked. Sure these disputes happen, but they happen everywhere on other articles and those articles routinely move out of protected status.
Rather here it appears that a few editors have parked themselves on these pages and try to keep others away from editing. I even see evidence of administrators abusing their privileges. For example, there is an edit by JoshuaZ to remove comments from the discussion page that contain no personal attack, but rather expressed the frustration I can see many editors are experiencing with these abuses. Please understand that the Wiki concept can't work this way. It has proven itself elsewhere, but this article is not working as intended. If these administrators want complete control over the content of their web page, I suggest they start a blog.
I was barred for supposed disruption (violation of the 3 revert rule) of this page for making a few edits on a small subsection of the page. I discussed those edits prior to making them here, though the reverting editors simply reverted them without any comment on this discussion page (again citing the "stability" of the article). Keep in mind that the sole purpose of Wikipedia is not to stabilize articles. This has to be balanced against other policies and guidelines. The edits I tried to make did nothing to changes the facts presented. Rather I was simply removing words and phrases that were pejorative, unencyclopedic and in violation of the NPOV policy. Those reverting my edits cited nothing to support their reverts, but rather again used pejoratives to back up the use of pejoratives. Though I have been blocked (even from appealing my blockage), I thought I'd begin some discussion here about what appear to me to be inappropriate behaviour by admins and a wish to treat this article as not part of a Wiki. I'm not sure what can be done about this behaviour. It's similar to the pegasus affair where an editor sought administrative status simply to exercise arbitrary power over other editors. However, my hope is that we can find some impartial admin who will somehow facilitate making this article into a part of the Wiki community. -- 67.175.134.6 04:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC) (blocked cplot)
From examining the history here, it appears that a small group of people have worked to ensure this article reflects only a certain POV. Legitimate edits are immediately and repeatedly reverted. Pejorative language is used to describe alternate POVs or more frequently alternate POVs are simply removed from the article.
Much of the article reads like an ABC docudrama and is unencyclopedic. It fails to cite sources or to present particular positions as such, but instead describes theories, accusations and allegations as if they are facts established by God. The article also fails to provide verifiable sources for many of the claims made in the article.
THe POV slant of the article combined with the failure to provide verifiable sources combine to make this article one of the worst cases of NPOV violation I have encountered on Wikipedia. I would recommend the editors and administrators squatting on this article begin to work with the dissenting editors to improve this article and make it meet Wikipedia's standards: especially those of NPOV and Verifiability..
I will try to elaborate on the issues through an examination of the article's history, but as I look through the discussion page and the article's history there are repeated examples of squashing alternate views from this article. Often time these alternate POVs are cited, verifiable and often widely held POVs, yet are excluded nonetheless..-- Cplot 17:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Tbeatty, there is clearly no consensus yet on the NPOV. How could their be there's only been minutes since the tag was placed on the article. It would normally take 10 days or so to make such a determination. In the case of this article I would imagine it will take much longer since so many dissenting editors have been chased away by a poorly behaving core group of editors. -- Cplot 18:03, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I have looked at the talk page archives and the history of the edits. And I find the NPOV violations even more disgraceful. It's now time for the editors here to take seriously these alternate POVs (without pejorative dismissals, which is mostly what I see in the archives). Some waiting time must be given to an NPOV dispute to let these issues and grievances be aired. This is how a Wiki is supposed to work. Again, if you don't wish to write an article that reflects all the relevant points-of-view then I suggest you start a blog. -- Cplot 18:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is hijacked. Of course there is NPOV dispute but a group of editors decide there is not. I think we are heading towards RfC here... SalvNaut 18:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem comes from trying to put the dissenting opinions (i.e. conspiracy theories) on an equal footing as the version supported by evidence. By and large, the conspiracy theory version are rejected entirely in agreement with Wikipedia policy. Typically they contain errors of fact, misunderstandings of the mechanics of solids, and/or unreliable evidence.
Now, there certainly is a particular zeal in removing unencyclopedic material, and occasionally it may be to excess, and in those rare instances where legitimate points are raised, the edits may be rejected without sufficient discussion. But that problem is manageable. Unfortunately, many people in the US are so frightened by the idea that their government was unable to stop terrorists that they find comfort in believing anything else, no matter how implausible. There is an whole folk mythology, not to mention an industry of disinformation, which challenges the conventional account, and there are editors who, innocently or maliciously, try to give the the mythology undue credibility. (It escapes me why someone who sees a discrepancy between an encyclopedia and rantings on a partisan website would immediately assume it's the encyclopedia which is wrong.)
But this is not truly a good-faith dispute regarding point of view. The issue is not what emotions people have or what narratives human creativity can fabricate, it's what the evidence supports. The conspiracy theory stories are, at least so far, not supported by evidence. Peter Grey 20:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Too much of this discussion is in the form of vague generalities and trying to describe the truth. The discussion should be around what are the various theories (including the only represented theory right now) about what are the political, economic, cultural and physical processes that influenced and were influenced by these attacks. It's not relevant whether one editor or another thinks that someone's research into this is bunk. The point is we have to describe those sources views nevertheless. More importantly, the article as it currently stands represents the views of certain sources as the truth rather than citing that view in accordance with wikipedia's NPOV policy. Clearly there's a difference of opinion here with no clear consensus. What we need to do next is work together to figure out what's needed to fix this very broken article and build a consensus rather than just insisting one's already there.
Again, we're not trying to decide who is crazy, wrong, misguided, stupid, or naive. Were trying to write an encyclopedia article that describes the subject and attributes various viewpoints to the authors who hold those viewpoints: whether that's NIST, FBI or whomever). Right now the article fails to do that on many accounts. Clearly I think we could get agreement on certain facts that none of us would dispute. Beyond that, we have to start attributing positions to who's making them and not just state them in the NPOV violating way as if its just an undisputed fact. I don't see any reason why we can't at least come to that agreement here.
Finally, I ask those who keep removing the NPOV template to stop doing that. Give it a little time for the discussion to take place and a real genuine concensus to be reached. A NPOV template is not meant as an insult, it's merely suggest that some editors may be unaware of other significant views on a topic. -- 68.30.31.232 04:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Just to point out that the consparcy theories have a large following here are some google results: 9/11 Pentagon missle strike gets 702,000 results, 9/11 controlled demolition gets 620,000 results, and 9/11 government involvement gets 1,110,000 results. Also Popular Mechanics tried to disprove these, showing that they do have some sort of mainstream following.-- Acebrock 17:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Pleas... if you use Google, do it correctly. "angels are real" 10,900 (angels are real, by the way), "Elvis lives" 197,000 results,. SalvNaut 19:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC) I'd also like to point out that a full third of americans believe that te terrorists had something to do with 9/11-- Acebrock 18:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
There's quite a few disputes going on here, so I've full protected the page. Perhaps a nice short outline of what specifics we have would be nice? One of the concerns I've seen is that of NPOV, so perhaps specific paragraphs could be listed below neatly? Thank you. Cowman109 Talk 05:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
sourced with: ^ "Latest on the attacks on America, 7:00 PM", CBS News, September 11, 2001.
Oh, and of course... many peple said on tv that someone blew the buildings up. Here you go (from Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center#Brief_History):
Then, an hour later, we had that big explosion, from much much lower. I don't know what on earth caused that
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there were actually devices that were planted within the building.
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This was clearly -- the way the structure is collapsing -- this was the result of something that was planned.
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sourced with: ^ "Latest on the attacks on America, 7:00 PM", CBS News, September 11, 2001.
Mongo, stay on topic. SalvNaut is clearly trying to fix these serious NPOV problems. You cannot simply say "well the article reflects my POV so I've asnwered you". One suggestion would be to restate this as: "CBS News reported that on the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.' This way it makes it clear and verifiable. A reader can verify that CBS reported this. A reader cannot veify that US intelligence agencies interecepted communications. -- 70.8.139.192 21:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Mongo wrote: "First off...get a username...secondly," Mongo do you have no regard at all for what Wikpedia is trying to accomplish. Everywhere throughout Wikipedia there are users who take NPOV seriously; who take verifiability serioiusly; who take no original researcy seriously, unlke you. And many of those who make valuable contributions to Wikpedia do so annonymously: another tenant of wikis. Again, if you don't like the idea behiind wikipedia, then don't participate. But please don't come in here and insist Wikipedia be like Fox News or the New York Times. Just go participate in those insitutions if that's what you're looking for.
Secondly, Osama bin Laden is a living person and so we must be careful to adhere to Wikpedia's policies on that. There has not been any indictment of Osama bin Laden on this: let alone a conviction. Most of the evidence that I presume exists has never been aired in a court of law. Now I believe Osama bin Laden had something to do with these attacks, but that doesn't let me (or anyone else) run rough shot over over Wikpedia policies and guidelines. We're here to write and encyclopedia: a wiki encyclopedia. Join in that process or just recuse yourself. Looking through these dicussion archives I find a lot of evidence that you're here to disrupt and not contribute.
Now that it's clear that there is not a concesnsus among editors, it's time for us to figure out a way to make this artricle meet Wikipedia's standards. There are so many problems in this article it's going to take a log of work. Your attempts to shout down every editor you don't agree with only makes it that much more cumbersome to fix the article. -- 68.30.46.228 22:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
What I've found so far is this report about communication intercepted betwen Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September [14]. So... who knows what CBS report was about (foreknowledge?). Maybe it's not a good idea to use CBS report from the day of attack as a source? SalvNaut 21:08, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
editprotected}} -- done SalvNaut 21:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC) On the day of the attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden.[37]
Please remove this unverifed statement per arguments above. We are not here to repeat everything what media says. This sentence should be at least clarified with "On the day of attacks CBS reported that...." but even then, I see no reason to include it. There were numerous false statements in the media on that day. Or it could be sourced much much better to explain who, when, who intercepted, etc. I've only found info about Osama and his stepmother on 9th of September. SalvNaut 22:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A new source has been presented - very good. The problem is that there is not a word in this source about Osama bin Ladin. Only about "interception of telephone conversations between jubilant terrorist supporters" and from the article it can be read that those were other terrorist cells. Please, stay strict and sharp minded, and if you want to have it here rephrase it appropriately (to whoever made the edit). Replacing "Osama" with "members of Al-Qaeda" or something similiar. Don't you think it's stupid that the article, at its present form, states that Osama called hijackers on the day of attacks, while even FBI admits that they do not have enough proof to pursue Osama for 9/11? SalvNaut 00:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
First, from looking at the history, I think many of the vandalism problems were simply caused by a failure of editors to compromise and strive to meet Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. So I think one of the advantages of working out a true consensus here so that we can unlock the article and have it join the greater Wikipedia community.
Second, as has already been mentioned scientific surveys indicate the official story is only one piece of the description this encyclopedia article should address. Dismissive arguments suggesting the public is just stupid or misguided or mentally defective are not relevant here (unless you want to cite someone who makes these arguments; again no original research here). Here's a list of sources discussing the waning confidence of the worlds population in the official story.
Keep in mind that the last piece showing the views of New Yorker residents reflects community with quite a significant proportion of eyewitnesses to the attacks and also a high proportion of people directly effected by the attacks.
Third, one aspect of the NPOV problem with the page is that (as mentioned above) it fails to describe the posiitions of the advocates of one particular theory as just that: advocates of one particular theory. So, for example, the article says:
intead of saying:
The first example reads like a novel, The second reads like an encylopedia article. This is only an example and I'm not weded to this wording. However the entire article is filled with these NPOV problems.Fixing passages in this way will also facilitate including other cited views of the attacks (as well as cited crticisms of those views).
Fourth, I'm including a list of sources that support what many of the dissenting editors — a majority by my count of recent discussions and edits — believe should be included in the article. These sources all meet Wikipedia's guidelines for verifiability and reliability. There may be counter arguments that also criticize these pieces, but those counter-arguments need to be cited in verifiable publications and not simply crafted as original research here on the discussion page. The David Ray Griffin books are largely secondary sources so make ideal sources to cite here on Wikipedia.
Fifth, the use of the term "conpsiracy theory" is simply perjorative when used to characterize the positions taken in these books. They know more theorize a conspiracy than the views of the official account (theorizing that 19 hijackers under the umbrella of a poowerful worldwide organization know as al-Quada coordinated the attacks). So using pejoratively is inappopriate in the article and here in the discussions. Using it to describe only some of the theories of the conspiracy (in the non-pejorative sense) is confusing and misleading for readers.
So with the scientific surveys, the preponderance of verifiable sources and what looks like a significant number of wikipedia editors seeking to fix these NPOV problems, we need to get serious about that discussion. This means we have to stop arguing about whose wrong, false, stupid, misguided, mentally deranged, etc. We need to focus on crafting a discussion here that shows the genuine disagreements by the various parties weighing in on this tragedy. As the NPOV policy states:
Neutrality here at Wikipedia is all about presenting competing versions of what the facts are. It doesn't matter at all how convinced we are that our facts are the facts. If a significant number of other interested parties really do disagree with us, no matter how wrong we think they are, the neutrality policy dictates that the discussion be recast as a fair presentation of the dispute between the parties. (highlighed portions to underscore the misunderstaniding about NPOV represented in the discussion thus far)
Perhaps we could start another sandbox article here on this page (or a linked page) to begin to fix the problems. Then when we reach a genuine consensus we can move that article to the main article. In the meantime we can work on the most egregious violations of NPOV and make the article read like an encyclopedia article rather than an historical novel (it is some nice prose however, I don't want to mess that up).
Verifiable sources that represent a significant view excluded from the article:
-- Cplot 03:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarbro writes:
one of the POVs must be factually incorrect, but we can't agree which one that is. If you let both POVs have equal footing, then the article becomes POV. The article needs to be NPOV
This again restates a misconception about NPOV I see here again and again. There are conflicting views on these attacks as with any historical event. We, as the edtiors of this encylopedia article, are not supposed to determine which one is correct. By doing that we make it reflect our own judgment and insert our own POV. The Wikipedia NPOV policy requires that we include the significant POVs. I think we would be hard pressed to determine which view was more widely held, let alone which one was correct. We would have to have information nonoe of us could possibly have to make an irrefutable judgement over which one was correct. So I encourage all the editors here to read the Wikipdia policies. In some ways it's liberating that we do not have to figure out who's correct. -- Cplot 20:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Peter Grey, again look at the NPOV policy. Certainly we want to limit the historical facts, and "opinions or speculation" presented here to credible and verifiable sources. All of the sources I listed above fit that criteria. Their views are not reflected in this article at all. Verifiable sources and no original resarch are also important parts of Wikipedia policy. However, as with any historical facts, there are always multipel views, interpretations, weight and opinions about those facts. Currently the article does not reflect that. Instead it one-sidely treats certain historians and leaves completely out of account the others. That's precisely what a NPOV violation does. It would be good if an admin could go ahead and add the template back to the article so that other editors will be alerted to our need to fix this article. -- Cplot 17:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Peter,Regebro, others. Let's take one of things that strike me, that is complete lack of information about suspected foreknwoledge about the attacks. Please, just take a brief look on those two lists from 9/11 Timeline. [15] [16]. Those are ALL media reports about foreknwoledge, insider training (among others confirmed by a professor of finance at the UI). Recently Bob Woodward's book has been published in which he outlines the fact that so many warnings about 9/11 were ignored by Bush administration. Ok, so we have those media reports, books, other important people criticising. And where on Wikipedia can we read about it and it's implications? Only in 9/11 conspiracy theories article. So,... tell me... can't you see a bias here? It similiar with other topics like failure to investigate the events of 9/11 properly - those all facts we read here about, we can't be sure if they are 100%true, if they're everything we should know. Renaming the other article "9/11 contending theories" or 9/11 inconsistencies might be considered a solution... but then, it would have to be really cleaned up to represent real contending theories, not everything at once (including pure anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, which until recently was so boldly underlined here). This article needs major rewriting - not only this would be a whole lot of work but some editors were very opposing in the past to any changes made here. I, for example, don't feel qualified enough and don't have enough time to propose major rewrite. I suppose that others who might have had this in mind, were successfully repelled from here. SalvNaut 20:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
A recent article in the London Times (January 23, 2009) states that Jérôme Kerviel, Société Générale rogue was quoted as saying:
“The best trading day in the history of Société Générale was September 11, 2001,” he said. “At least, that’s what one of my managers told me. It seems that profits were colossal that day.“I had a similar experience during the London attacks in July 2005.”
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5568518.ece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.212.49 ( talk) 04:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)